From nobody Tue Nov 6 03:34:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090D4130DC6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 03:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xjavXvyxxg98 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 03:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from imap.narrans.de (michelangelo.narrans.de [45.77.55.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8EB3130DC3 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 03:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (imap.narrans.de [local]) by imap.narrans.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 44da717d for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:34:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:34:38 +0100 From: Florian Obser To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 11:34:46 -0000 Hi, When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates unusable addresses over time. For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64 is advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the end of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home. At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link and a router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the laptop has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:42::/64. Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a prefix advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from both prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set for source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations can be reach while others can't. A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with legacy-IP only. While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd ) in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to handle this case. The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid), there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier. So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and the knee jerk reaction was: Hum, interesting. Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. No wait, when the interface comes up. No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation and if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the addresses and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table of the router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that deletes addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - including moving to legacy IP only. In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link comes up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but causes problems when moving to legacy-IP only. Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs around and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores them on wake up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behaviour but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only deletes them later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, I have more complicated scenarios.) Thanks, Florian -- I'm not entirely sure you are real. From nobody Tue Nov 6 04:22:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A046612D4F1 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:22:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-QD7SMFNwnq for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D271712958B for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:22:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541506947; x=1542111747; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=oM6DP0KT JyMlbTCimWQXGFk+5YBTb/QsM+VMRU39SNo=; b=MJbuZfFeB7yoDClUWC2G8vZE JcW1KFbXrC7N5pSRp8b5lGAL/P6MpPr1OflIKqjHhZs8MPKpo8kx8TtTe2m8zX0H Utbk35zp1+N1tMSrLJOOGinf66nJPRL82RrNHFCsY/3l5IoWm28AlMDZBqB4WUOE mxGZhotxI0g9Ov96Tp4= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:22:27 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:22:26 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005946464.msg for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:22:25 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:22:25 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=184881054d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 19:22:14 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Florian Obser , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 12:22:32 -0000 Hi Florian, I just realized that this is the same problem we described in RIPE-690 to r= ecommend persistent prefixes, because when a CPE has a power outage, if the= ISP is changing the prefix, hosts may keep the original one, and not be ab= le to communicate for a while ... One CPE vendor seems to keep the prefix in flash, so if it gets changed acr= oss a reboot or WAN down/up, then can send RA with lifetime 0 to the LANs .= .. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Florian Obser Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 18:35 Para: Asunto: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates unusable addresses over time. =20 For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64 is advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the end of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home. =20 At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link and a router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the laptop has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:42::/6= 4. =20 Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. =20 If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a prefix advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from both prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set for source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations can be reach while others can't. =20 A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with legacy-IP only. =20 While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd ) in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to handle this case. =20 The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid), there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier. =20 So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and the knee jerk reaction was: Hum, interesting. Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. No wait, when the interface comes up. No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation and if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the addresses and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table of the router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. =20 I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that deletes addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - including moving to legacy IP only. =20 In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link comes up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but causes problems when moving to legacy-IP only. =20 Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs around and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). =20 Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores them on w= ake up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behaviour but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only deletes them later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. =20 Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, I have more complicated scenarios.) =20 Thanks, Florian =20 --=20 I'm not entirely sure you are real. =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 6 04:43:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831F3130DC6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:43:57 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byRVWHsEdrDC for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76DB0130DC3 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) (Smail #157) id m1gK0hy-0000FkC; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:43:50 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Florian Obser From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bCE2691D2@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Nov 2018 19:22:14 +0700 ." Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:43:44 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 12:43:57 -0000 > I just realized that this is the same problem we described in > RIPE-690 to recommend persistent prefixes, because when a CPE has > a power outage, if the ISP is changing the prefix, hosts may keep > the original one, and not be able to communicate for a while ... To some extent, host support for multiple upstream routers should fix this issue. I.e., a host should tie a SLAAC prefix to the default router that announced the prefix. If the ISP changes the prefix then the host would notice that an existing SLAAC prefix is no longer tied to any default router. In address selection, the host should then prefer the new prefix over the old one. This has no effect on exiting connections, but there is not much you can do anyhow. It also doesn't prevent stale addresses form staying around. I guess the host can safely reduce the remaining lifetime to 2 hours. It should be safe to do that on every link down event. Some kind of link-change detection RFC might be useful. Though this ties in with mac addess randomization. From nobody Tue Nov 6 04:57:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD071130DEE for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:57:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnExjzUYk3iw for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FE63130DE4 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 04:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wA6BvMMC007344 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2018 11:57:23 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Philip Homburg Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:57:53 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 12:57:59 -0000 Philip Homburg wrote on 06/11/2018 12:43: > Some kind of link-change detection RFC might be useful. Though this ties > in with mac addess randomization. + adds state. This is not a criticism, just an observation that there's a conflicting set of requirements here between maintaining state and not maintaining state. In the case of e.g. CPEs rebooting and being assigned different prefixes, there isn't an existing way of doing this. Perhaps we need a mechanism to poll the issuing router to see if the prefix is still valid? Nick From nobody Tue Nov 6 05:05:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF03130DEE for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:05:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqYfX7vVtWKK for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C447130DF4 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) (Smail #157) id m1gK12t-0000IRC; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:05:27 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bCE2691D2@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:57:53 +0000 ." <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:05:27 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:05:40 -0000 In your letter dated Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:57:53 +0000 you wrote: >Philip Homburg wrote on 06/11/2018 12:43: >> Some kind of link-change detection RFC might be useful. Though this ties >> in with mac addess randomization. > >+ adds state. This is not a criticism, just an observation that there's >a conflicting set of requirements here between maintaining state and not >maintaining state. In the case of e.g. CPEs rebooting and being >assigned different prefixes, there isn't an existing way of doing this. >Perhaps we need a mechanism to poll the issuing router to see if the >prefix is still valid? In the context of mac address randomization, this is what I think ideally a host should do: - if a host attaches to a new link it should use a new mac address, new IIDs but also prevent any packets with old addresses from going out - if a host re-attaches to the same link it was before it should keep all addresses unchanged. I think this is rather tricky to get right. Simply checking if an old prefix would work on the new link would violate these principles. From nobody Tue Nov 6 05:29:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751C9130E07 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:29:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FGEnGsOjLiZ1 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 065E4124BAA for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:29:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541510948; x=1542115748; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=3c3+T/5+zBvy5hdjisx0nMFmMDfNFLAjZ5P60N0LcKs=; b=PsHaDQWyKk6u3 6EIU1cpK9fcPRxDPQTpc6B8QOWHO1v93fb8bRcbXwiJuNzQOcYKpZGo9Kn9v73ag ZGnbnyRz+yxuz7E9GhgoJH7wg+fOWQgS6aJ9PA3ocnI/oKBgcZEEcY0CD4LZ0tKR X/3eaMpYu+vdUmYgj8Mz4YqpkZL94s= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:29:08 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:29:07 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005946621.msg for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:29:06 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:29:06 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=184881054d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 20:28:57 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Nick Hilliard , Philip Homburg CC: Message-ID: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:29:14 -0000 It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is= no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offe= r new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... Regars, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Nick Hilliard Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 19:58 Para: Philip Homburg CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Philip Homburg wrote on 06/11/2018 12:43: > Some kind of link-change detection RFC might be useful. Though this t= ies > in with mac addess randomization. =20 + adds state. This is not a criticism, just an observation that there'= s=20 a conflicting set of requirements here between maintaining state and no= t=20 maintaining state. In the case of e.g. CPEs rebooting and being=20 assigned different prefixes, there isn't an existing way of doing this.= =20 Perhaps we need a mechanism to poll the issuing router to see if the=20 prefix is still valid? =20 Nick =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 6 05:32:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F435130EDE for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IR7uHrwkLS7a for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DAD8124BAA for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:48 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wA6CWDfU011527 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:32:14 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <72f3750d-151c-7f4e-28c5-a29d99477c1c@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:32:45 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 13:32:53 -0000 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote on 06/11/2018 13:28: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 > there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They > can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is > persistent ... it's a question of where you want the state to reside in your network: at the ISP, at the CPE or on the host. Previously, NAT gave us the capability to abstract away the state from both the ISP and the host, by putting it into the CPE. Nick From nobody Tue Nov 6 06:04:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1304B130DD4 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:04:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXcli3vTXycT for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from omr2.cc.vt.edu (omr2.cc.ipv6.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8400:0:33:fb76:806e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D683D124BAA for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mr6.cc.vt.edu (mr6.cc.ipv6.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8500:0:af:2d00:4488]) by omr2.cc.vt.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wA6E4cBP014647 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:04:38 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f69.google.com (mail-ed1-f69.google.com [209.85.208.69]) by mr6.cc.vt.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id wA6E4X8Y027829 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:04:38 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f69.google.com with SMTP id 6-v6so1245063edz.10 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 06:04:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=30PWwX6ZlcSbqbH7Ent/DDuEWfFo3EmyT/Uo0PsopgQ=; b=gQPi0vhgp1D9c8w/x08GmlKMxBaZt+764EpLTat25eZYhX8b8H7zSfCdE3ljiyuqt7 sRplftOFV++slDvqvMzGtrzWrF5iWiNcgunbwojR5K7WHa2pootTByLobUHoVwcfW6Zp bWWPnf9TT7GuU1LKLjVbjYnC7yJMaEx5xiN6VK//nkOsrT30u+1xgDZq4/n/iE+posY9 zZvfhSWIwh6ccNgKD10ufR3c+msEV2JCaPsyH8vVwMk119vguwdPHuITx0yaDubOxiRN W8/+86KN2DNFJYVbpadULdFCKQk3/sop4/ZciYZxaln7zZ9C6iNOBgoibUH0yx9y6A1U guPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIN3QC0eLhk+22WE/tJ1zfvaM41VXdeADTONkwSsNCQJt+OR6z9 hdbQm6rwsRTtc6w8jjuSrmdTai//8Lyb5PvDkRbGqwk25wMypt9W7QAdxvyQ0vpdfK1iZXRDcf+ CVvw3vB4QzPW17R9VzYMHlT86bWm3JFfF X-Received: by 2002:a50:ba3d:: with SMTP id g58-v6mr15193115edc.214.1541513072283; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 06:04:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5c29d3UqwDrGOLhvBDw7hDWN3NsbfTCiLqz38E8TbW2TFVsKjH84YKK045U0tRnv+nRuJXsqscqhxCGv0+iQZk= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ba3d:: with SMTP id g58-v6mr15193084edc.214.1541513071795; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 06:04:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> From: Clark Gaylord Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:04:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Nick Hilliard , Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000faf830579ff7b03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:04:42 -0000 --0000000000000faf830579ff7b03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 08:29 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there > is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also > offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... > > Regars, > Jordi=EF=BB=BF > While this may be worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes change, even if you think you know the business of the errant ISP more than they do. Hosts need to do something reasonable when they change. Neither using invalid addresses nor growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses without bound qualify as "reasonable". --ckg --=20 -- Clark Gaylord cgaylord@vt.edu ... Autocorrect may have improved this message ... --0000000000000faf830579ff7b03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 08:29 JORD= I PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
It is much better to educate ISP so they understand = that with IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do t= hat. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is per= sistent ...

Regars,
Jordi=EF=BB=BF

While this may be = worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes change, even if you t= hink you know the business of the errant ISP more than they do. Hosts need = to do something reasonable when they change. Neither using invalid addresse= s nor growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses without bound qualify a= s "reasonable".

--ckg

--

--
Clark Gaylord
cgaylord@vt.edu
... Autocorrect may have improved this message ...

--0000000000000faf830579ff7b03-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 06:11:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A128130EE1 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:11:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QE4uLYagfrQS for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07A6A130E78 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:11:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541513498; x=1542118298; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=Z3XcM/qdKeFCABp/wYkpSn mWhV4w89h4u1LXrnF9lHc=; b=huWdRTBVbld7G3ghu/Sm/7M8iAyC07kkwCYlQ4 zjbqNXuQupzeXKPLDWuxqSdYRrRapo/mrGKMMc/zau4aq7aAC3En+GavnndY0a0g R7gf7tMinMg7jN1+yD66E0zgddtTgSbARRXebmmrxw9K2slB9gQC5695xaXQSTFh sl44c= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:11:38 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:11:38 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005946677.msg for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:11:37 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:11:37 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=184881054d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 21:11:28 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Clark Gaylord CC: Message-ID: <2E355D1F-3C25-4D41-BE72-20BD9B03454A@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3624383493_1325838491" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:11:50 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3624383493_1325838491 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Not saying I don=E2=80=99t agree that host should be able to know it =E2=80= =A6 and do something about that. =20 The point is that, is not the same if it changes and the CPE knows it (life= time, same or new prefix), etc., or if it changes when the CPE is rebooting= and the CPE doesn=E2=80=99t know that it has been changed, but in the LANs= is still remembered the old one. =20 With persistent prefixes we solve that case at least. Saludos, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de Clark Gaylord Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 21:05 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 08:29 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is= no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offe= r new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... Regars, Jordi=EF=BB=BF =20 While this may be worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes cha= nge, even if you think you know the business of the errant ISP more than th= ey do. Hosts need to do something reasonable when they change. Neither usin= g invalid addresses nor growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses witho= ut bound qualify as "reasonable". =20 --ckg =20 --=20 -- Clark Gaylord cgaylord@vt.edu .... Autocorrect may have improved this message ...=20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3624383493_1325838491 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Not saying I don=E2=80=99t agree that host should be able to = know it =E2=80=A6 and do something about that.

=  

The point is that, is not the same if it changes a= nd the CPE knows it (lifetime, same or new prefix), etc., or if it changes = when the CPE is rebooting and the CPE doesn=E2=80=99t know that it has been= changed, but in the LANs is still remembered the old one.

 

With persistent prefixes we solve that= case at least.


Saludos,

Jordi<= o:p>

 

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.= org> en nombre de Clark Gaylord <cgaylord@vt.edu>
Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 21:05
Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ= <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: <v6= ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between ne= tworks

 

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018, 08:29 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ &= lt;jordi.palet=3D40cons= ulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with = IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They = can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ..= .

Regars,
Jordi=EF=BB=BF

 

=

While this may be wo= rthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes change, even if you thi= nk you know the business of the errant ISP more than they do. Hosts need to= do something reasonable when they change. Neither using invalid addresses = nor growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses without bound qualify as = "reasonable".

 

--ckg

 

--

--
Clark Gaylord
cgaylord@vt.edu
.... Autocorrect may have improved this message ..= .

__= _____________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf= .org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3624383493_1325838491-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 06:54:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2657130DFE for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RiicxZgKCmJI for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A881C130E5D for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 06:54:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4841C1E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:53:59 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED99418E5; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:53:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 3FD0F7D4F; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:53:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:53:59 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Nick Hilliard , Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:54:04 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Nov 06, 2018 at 08:28:57PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network (which was the original question). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Nov 6 07:18:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D020130E5D for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:18:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obGGeDgixmBd for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082EA12870E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:18:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541517497; x=1542122297; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=3bDWbUdmQxBszQQ/ZoFHOHkLCqjOojpz8wlPZrYPBFg=; b=YA16cotQnudrq 103qJCmzAhPjNoVgizpdIUYTts09Z0E998xeTA+Af1J7ejDZIT+5vjBe7SsE154J MiYC3jraUcIR2EM08LpvXro8mQdkjBQ99NoCmmyUFbnbhoMekUd+T4ldZOz9uTkZ L3cAF6t8xQo+PxDI+o8pi2h0NNUvv0= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:18:17 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:18:16 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005946749.msg for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:18:15 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:18:15 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=184881054d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 22:18:06 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Gert Doering CC: Message-ID: <937FE3E0-F9F4-4FBA-AC19-91CC73D474C8@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:18:22 -0000 Agree, I said that in the following post ("Not saying I don=E2=80=99t agree= that host should be able to know it =E2=80=A6 and do something about that"= ), either I missed sending it because the jet lag, or it hasn't arrived to = the list ... Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 21:54 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, =20 On Tue, Nov 06, 2018 at 08:28:57PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 th= ere is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can als= o offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... =20 This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network (which was the original question). =20 Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? =20 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michae= l Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 6 09:55:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A82130DEF for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:55:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC1FS-oHF51j for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x129.google.com (mail-it1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39A48130DE7 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 09:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x129.google.com with SMTP id k206-v6so19140916ite.0 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 09:55:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a5rHJ2lBT43w5r3zYEPNOapb/YF9saXRImXxzwHjXeQ=; b=obO6yDiD5wFajAlqr1K6cETT9QoQLO/prpI0BIX8jC06NmetXOs36Dq13A1TBpj1nP zz2g7pPbjMOVSO3oXetsbqSAC9AW17yFtEIubACgar9yxJMjZaOMzzSbHzfM7Gmegtky 6QkBRuvykkfiHCy34BqED3vIgCutKFOOvjF2ACWjG8f4y0rV1aEJK9xMtLViB1MbwRXi SFSiJTLL6jeptDZ0Jc/M51RnDjuaK3DXF8T/KsHIDmBu5MY0kCnHnQpObshDvEcTLYFn iiHNpczkLh9ylJQtiMQ1wUufTriS4TVPuYYGfbaX38myD6nAlvdH9gMuum6D25CAng5d KDCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a5rHJ2lBT43w5r3zYEPNOapb/YF9saXRImXxzwHjXeQ=; b=WE3NRAtTr/iOauUoSrx8X7FP70wvw5mdyM8nIL8mYRzVqVK3a1T6a8iOxfiu4iuGXa cM5ttP8qIWrE8Z7hSyI1x5okMUWwKiluXP/9DapjNtF4m9lRHeBxJHcWOYGsCHjba0XK zc4CUlkjzeMOqQCgf74flHqkf+zl2g+7vJjM07tIuCgqYaoSI3TS/0Y0vSkQJxNdAwJg N8RHshNkoxugL4gIi1Eg39uM4qLIPdldnahNA2VXhByImwabSpdlpCeA2dQ8bEsi5EEW dU5rkdv6LkUy6YE/k26CIDuNXyutF+VTdOXmk2EXSgh+bHrQ9uUy9hWEY7HhBK1K6gxt +HtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLooVVMZfRL8h9rOv128xwpWU5+zrHlQe5VYo5tJmX8Sa8gH4Hn 4APpQRQ+Xf3fg7eLWpKjd4KWgiR7vWP6XOHjf9I2PA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dk8efcwV6tVxADYNepCG/s/n3XMSavtPNTIksk5Jh9pqSRsX1HGe78eSheszfT6QhXquEPmqBltrrahhvWQGY= X-Received: by 2002:a24:a50f:: with SMTP id k15-v6mr2809169itf.24.1541526899433; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 09:54:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:54:46 +0700 Message-ID: To: Florian Obser Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041175f057a02b347" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 17:55:02 -0000 --00000000000041175f057a02b347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 6 Nov 2018, 18:35 Florian Obser When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. > That sounds like an implementation bug. Widely-used implementations do not do this. Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. > This is what our implementation has been doing for several years. --00000000000041175f057a02b347 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, = 6 Nov 2018, 18:35 Florian Obser <= florian@openbsd.org wrote:
When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates
unusable addresses over time.

That sounds like an implementation bug. Widely= -used implementations do not do this.

Delete the IPs when the interface goes down.

This is what our implementation= has been doing for several years.
--00000000000041175f057a02b347-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 13:47:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA60127332 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:47:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XgX-qbYx8BAr for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 093F3126CC7 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wA6Kkulx070632 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2018 20:46:58 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local To: Gert Doering Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 21:47:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 21:47:35 -0000 Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53: > This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network > (which was the original question). if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't, this is an implementation bug. If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 mobility. Nick From nobody Tue Nov 6 14:52:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEB012870E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:52:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7bQs8pvYEuhT for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E291C126F72 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 32-v6so6474262pgu.2 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:52:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qJlcGHJ9V0h0ZsPLnqJm/j2DmwKb/okARGzgPLe5RsM=; b=I32Oqp4QL5u8XJ+6nqiskIu5eiTLkfyHL+fKrjj93NnMedFFnfm5cLzK2RSByRDY3l T0lG/FSuVBTxzvKktH1ayYIrNJ6zPOnKbR3TymCDXsWs+vOlNrPdMAVomz6ej+xTaEXI xZXcwDYJQD7Pk7GlVK3hZCotvGBuXdHxJa4c+IWeLC0K0vn7VvHGV3nLt4q01n8X9cni x6opuHTE5KHWzx135w6z5cTOWy6iQocp+3rzWquW0yxvmcZ6yivLZVRJrL4VY/oHq2cC rmlcPE1IyWgsdU6hcSQNH6f3fG6XPIXp/CxJUP72MSow8xvEmMLsjZWEMtkIBWUH6SY+ ga/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qJlcGHJ9V0h0ZsPLnqJm/j2DmwKb/okARGzgPLe5RsM=; b=TFvRu8tXgXwSueqkk16cmrrk0bUlQZCiSdASz1Yjr7Sbp4+Z9MSniVsEwWxg2mKjRc Y2ILnpwKwen4XlEU21ZBF4RCFU8yOwKYPg62BQXE6AIrVKGZ+JFGjl2OTW6jRtMO9snq VPukbco0YqPuiERtuGc59c5qISQvaGyrr9RzwQDcdRyAKF80VT/vEaIYKvXVXQo4adNl IYQ2ZXq8Q493RyG+r7PlydUqKsdv3nRa0xihKbgyscYcEy6sp+oLaa2HxLYMhJGDJpRz A1Jz6lLqPGvLf65GsiVKpRNVIH+p7zSYNmAi7TKQGZLl9IwWzCT7fjziD32wRoZJ/2LF NaoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIXVutMe4hAz4YppKBajQa06s2SkYfNSmeN9Zqc9yvZrR6WGPzZ T4i1u1X7yg6KuAAkeUGg8nFg4aGO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dWeYYA9RvSrGL7u7BWQpYX+nQBK6GTy5wO5Ps2fLvCn10K8A9FZsSWF4hCFyx7cHJr6y9xSA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:cc0b:: with SMTP id x11-v6mr25071790pgf.33.1541544728807; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.216.38.40] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.38.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s184sm24137657pgc.38.2018.11.06.14.52.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Nov 2018 14:52:07 -0800 (PST) To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <72d4b2d3-7fe8-666e-5a38-b28531be7d39@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:52:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 22:52:12 -0000 On 2018-11-07 10:47, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53: >> This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network >> (which was the original question). > > if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on > the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing > ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't, > this is an implementation bug. Agreed. I routinely move my laptop between home and office, and I used to sometimes see sticky addresses on Windows 7, but the source address selection algorithm never picked them so it didn't matter. I haven't seen sticky addresses since I switched to Windows 10. Brian > If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 mobility. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Tue Nov 6 15:11:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C5E130E09 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:11:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HtQQ9WtV-LwT for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67865130E11 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. 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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:10:47 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "'Clark Gaylord'" , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Thread-Index: AQHUdcTGZX7eL89qAkapZNKa5vvMY6VC/vsA//+2STqAAFxagIAACeCAgABCNQA= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:10:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.210.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-06_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=563 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811060196 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 23:11:01 -0000 --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZGAsNinQEyKu for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2F4F124D68 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AEE93AC0D7; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E727160050; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC36160097; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id p2DsiJxTQ-zX; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.30.42.67] (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CEA1160050; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:33:41 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Andrews In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:33:38 +1100 Cc: Clark Gaylord , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A355689-BF44-4A96-A7C4-F913A7A1CA80@isc.org> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> To: "STARK, BARBARA H" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 23:33:45 -0000 It=E2=80=99s all trade offs. You can have both static and dynamic = prefix delegations driven by the client with DHCPv6 today. What would be nice is a RA option / flag to say that = a prefix is expected to be dynamic so this can be signalled to the node. Mark > On 7 Nov 2018, at 10:10 am, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >=20 > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 = there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They = can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent = ... >=20 > Regars, > Jordi=EF=BB=BF > =20 > While this may be worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. = Prefixes change, even if you think you know the business of the errant = ISP more than they do. Hosts need to do something reasonable when they = change. Neither using invalid addresses nor growing the list of = no-longer-valid-addresses without bound qualify as "reasonable". > =20 > --ckg > =20 > Privacy experts (inside and outside IETF) recommend changing = assigned prefixes about every day. Maybe IETF participants need to be = better educated on privacy implications of static IPv6 prefix = assignments. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --=20 Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Tue Nov 6 15:43:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D01C124D68 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:43:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uho2CJ8p65Bq for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8E91124C04 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id q1so13233454otk.0 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:43:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s8s7PfI80jP6E3nFVNk0dP73zP+lFzaJU88Bwm5K4TU=; b=EbVOj8KkEC/lQ1qbAx0B+Hzbb3EF8Eg6rlUaL7jU5d0DthXzlkYF91kSZycKA4kLTy KkQPULrJPhf4xmrW4h8larTcDs4OY95eJfCPT6Qm+naun8hasBzeSPGYbdx8sCGbnIW9 JpT35LjuSpzU7W9lgsc+doMUlvIddmU1HpaI6e+IH4k8PqqNEcH5ELKfuMtlNBtdNmMy hMneYlguIskY9haSUsls8L7fFEAsDKDFyYW5xmn1GOAmsfSWZKuiPHFPRdblvyKIsowg WCypJFIfI9nceXsU1mBEfRXuC7/EYIH2R3jl48QCT4sO8ih66sChPOQJQrbtTOPQlOoY m/lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s8s7PfI80jP6E3nFVNk0dP73zP+lFzaJU88Bwm5K4TU=; b=XpmtEYOghoHl6es7gH/1UYOMG11mhE3i0kSWvmj7nFhhzgpq9tUYoqqqds8LW0vapg JHlMO3l1vigfIYR+KKczM/Ghtfz854UDRMMmVY/1fP1KHMNKejOSGEXv36iQ2G84XL7C Fxd0c7OFpf4gMLYZXlfITZ0Tab1EOxN22/urr7SoZWb31grRq7wBb1L3mrx80FFMS769 UXX6oK6A2FiTzKhD/fsMucV7EQWTI6MSObuGrxLQJCyi8gvpSGoQUmz1oNsCB/RbzhCV jbYMnMO6xkx84LdCugd5R7IX3XruGbdWuUaR+zhdLGETyvu9OW2x/rK3YX/LSG5Ejd17 IcIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLNgBP3PYeqFdRiJW16czY8Uo587J73rZIWojo67ToBLx+Pcvsp wrT90BwcfadF9I7GNvOf9RKhPT9upsbu3TpdumMHgUqc X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dx5CQs5Q0wFnV2k7Yw/NmsQWzFOjM2N10RLRQ9KWHXZVWJLsEl2xdWbV0UYmJizhQ7dzLbEiIDgqxz24g4PUY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:56bd:: with SMTP id o58mr18064180oth.318.1541547833083; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 15:43:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:43:26 +1100 Message-ID: To: florian@openbsd.org Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 23:43:55 -0000 On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 at 22:35, Florian Obser wrote: > > Hi, > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. > > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this > doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should > have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, > I have more complicated scenarios.) > It's a long time since I did something related and thought about this (the CPE scenario Jordi mentioned). I thought I'd read in an RFC somewhere that the one of the factors in source address selection was the value of the preferred lifetime of an address, so addresses with greater value preferred or valid lifetimes would be preferred as a tie breaker. However, I can't seem to remember which RFC, so maybe I just thought it would be that way and then an implementation I looked at worked that way. Using higher value lifetimes to tie break isn't necessarily going to work reliably - the preferred and valid lifetimes used on the new network may be smaller than the past networks', so the past networks addresses would be preferred. In my casual experiment the lifetime values were all the same, so the newer learned prefixes/addresses naturally had greater value lifetimes. Perhaps an idea is that when a host's link comes up and it issues an ND RS and receives corresponding ND RAs, it then uses the set of received RA PIOs to determine which of the existing addresses on the interface are valid. For addresses outside of those RA PIO prefixes, it could either immediately mark them as invalid or remove them. Applications using them would get an immediate notification that communications using those addresses has failed. A more conservative approach could be to mark them as deprecated, allowing applications to continue to try to use them (see RFC4862, 5.5.4. "Address Lifetime Expiry" for some more discussion) although a drawback would be that to end-user applications it would look like packet loss and rely on relatively long multi-second timeouts to determine that communications has failed for these addresses. There is a corner case where using RA PIOs to validate wouldn't work, and that is where there aren't PIOs in the RAs. That can be valid if stateful DHCPv6 is used for address assignment (i.e. no SLAAC used on the link), and all hosts are to send all traffic to all destinations (except Link Local ones) via their default router (i.e. no prefixes marked as on-link). In other words, with no SLAAC and no-link prefixes, hosts don't need to be provided with any RA PIOs. In that scenario the hosts' existing SLAAC addresses could be immediately removed/deprecated, and the existing stateful DHCPv6 addresses confirmed to be valid using a DHCPv6 mechanism, probably Renew. Regards, Mark. > Thanks, > Florian > > -- > I'm not entirely sure you are real. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Nov 6 16:02:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41847128C65 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:02:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id isfrFYrN4Mvj for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF499124C04 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id v83-v6so12385852oia.5 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=D8Kq8p4vOyN3r14eEK7fbTzUEs2jUWfAOB605BOgfWE=; b=Joq4L9knww7M9BY892hahnYQ/cowszbSVw0eTuqTGJl4hjjaLnCGvQQ3qE1CxwXmIU M7lljHZ95A4QnXhZk20YmotzipQ9bJcSqSPByd4NNeH7EFG4Wc7AjN7yTaBTlYCdLOPV cjWRsFzFl5x+ysA3BoUaqfZK6WcKIw8keXOtu4musYlYFpVXp+hgylQM+/ILdYKvV7RW 0FR6aG5JYDFVP5Vu1LdtlMe1MclFxW/Wd6X0o7vJkDbrndirdgNeKoQ76G4WUmXvudL1 6iRAr0zetIFtzWr/1DKvexzbv6lGEqe1Vlnj9vZtY6QaFWgDghT0DhsF7og3ZlSy53g5 XH2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D8Kq8p4vOyN3r14eEK7fbTzUEs2jUWfAOB605BOgfWE=; b=Hza9/VhIuZnBMGGMrkLCSx2MF4dAKkKYRJO6ukb6iuA6MXwvyJYSHB2dpAtEIpLHui ZTV8GyUfG3GqY9AHY/62XMCjzD2hK6aYKtC8mB2lP/CIVCacqI4ICsojClqHTw27AvmD a6SSZzFKvvXpR3r/teoOqz3p0rLIGjt0OfD9CL5K5lsQlPy/uE+cN+NTdf/w+j7lter7 WlsBMgC8xyFRn419fMXPGxpsaoaLIMLGtktjXlZzAYmIXVIviKqGd2+2Iwb9waSu21w8 A4RVeUY/9jV6CkzqORfOG93ykxT7MjQvMU3SOvN7zocIfc9wcu/ZLNjtCUxzorhsquL/ hm7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLbxSL8VUM1Rna6xfvyaH1X+iWZC7p01FZhXyZkS0u8exXPge9N Fho/8pvBXoVq8anu6p8w77PudfZu37Q3nErLye8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5d+W+C59tq4phghvUGK1h77pH2vwxXy1wHlJf9oytXdUrk9aQXd3xb1l1W2Ba8yl75HnpI21G2a86e1gQGze2U= X-Received: by 2002:aca:62d7:: with SMTP id w206-v6mr6305300oib.275.1541548940044; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:01:53 +1100 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9afc0057a07d4d5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 00:02:22 -0000 --000000000000f9afc0057a07d4d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed., 7 Nov. 2018, 08:48 Nick Hilliard Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53: > > This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network > > (which was the original question). > > if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on > the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing > ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't, > this is an implementation bug. > Doing that blindly can be a mistake, an interface flap doesn't necessarily indicate that the interface has been attached to a different network. It was by accident, however a long time ago I moved a patch lead from one switch to another unintentionally, with both switches part of the same LAN. My Linux host didn't consider that to be fatal, and my telnet session continued to work. This makes sense as the host treated its interface flapping as though it was a transient packet loss issue. It didn't place any significance on the point of packet loss being at one of its direct interfaces instead of somewhere else in the network. So when the link came back up, the implementation assumes that all it needed to do to recover to was to retransmit an packets that had been lost. I think it is also generally consistent with the weak host model, where addresses are "owned" by the host, rather than the specific interfaces they're configured on, meaning that even if the interface goes down, the host still considers the interface addresses valid, and can use the address and receive traffic to it on any of its other interfaces. The trick is to determine whether the same or different networks are being attached to. That's the problem that RFC6059 - "Simple Procedures for Detecting Network Attachment in IPv6" is addressing, although I don't know if and how widely it is implemented: "Detecting Network Attachment allows hosts to assess if its existing addressing or routing configuration is valid for a newly connected network. This document provides simple procedures for Detecting Network Attachment in IPv6 hosts, and procedures for routers to support such services." https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6059 Regards, Mark. > If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 mobility. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000f9afc0057a07d4d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed.= , 7 Nov. 2018, 08:48 Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org wrote:
Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53:
> This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network=
> (which was the original question).

if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on
the interface used for its default route?=C2=A0 In this case, any existing =
ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface.=C2=A0 If they aren'= ;t,
this is an implementation bug.

Doing that blindly can be a mistake, an inter= face flap doesn't necessarily indicate that the interface has been atta= ched to a different network.

It was b= y accident, however a long time ago I moved a patch lead from one switch to= another unintentionally, with both switches part of the same LAN. My Linux= host didn't consider that to be fatal, and my telnet session continued= to work.=C2=A0

This makes sense as the host treat= ed its interface flapping as though it was a transient packet loss issue. I= t didn't place any significance on the point of packet loss being at on= e of its direct interfaces instead of somewhere else in the network.
<= div>
So when the link came back up, the implementation assume= s that all it needed to do to recover to was to retransmit an packets that = had been lost. I think it is also generally consistent with the weak host m= odel, where addresses are "owned" by the host, rather than the sp= ecific interfaces they're configured on, meaning that even if the inter= face goes down, the host still considers the interface addresses valid, and= can use the address and receive traffic to it on any of its other interfac= es.

The trick is to determine whether the same or = different networks are being attached to. That's the problem that RFC60= 59 - "Simple Procedures for Detecting Network Attachment in IPv6"= is addressing, although I don't know if and how widely it is implement= ed:

"Detecting Network Attachment allows host= s to assess if its existing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addressing or routing co= nfiguration is valid for a newly connected
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network.= =C2=A0 This document provides simple procedures for Detecting
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Network Attachment in IPv6 hosts, and procedures for routers to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support such services."

https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc6059


Regards,
Mark.




If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 mobility.<= br>
Nick

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op= s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--000000000000f9afc0057a07d4d5-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 16:49:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9920F12870E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:49:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCOVFGsQRqAt for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADD541277BB for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:49:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541551741; x=1542156541; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=MTPM6NMcbv9Dy75MDmXRkX 4y/Z3VI1WN3eIu5A4C7k0=; b=YugizphQ9YpfRvYUZOAiPXm8I5XEtYT6I0jzeI BSzvYWyfs+U+KuQxumqLTp5RgSYFtiwx+hl4Vn2RFPzv5du26Q+Kj/hr4NNw36Ga y+Lhdq1iGXwlL826I/sQJOKvPF2MYc6/LNAOTsKgZLG3t/oB/NrW7Z9LAidj84wV 1VAiM= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:49:01 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:48:59 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005947893.msg for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:48:57 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:48:57 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=184960b608=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:48:44 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , 'Clark Gaylord' , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3624421732_527794258" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 00:49:07 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3624421732_527794258 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I think basing privacy in the prefix is persistent or not is a broken conce= pt. =20 It is one of the parameters for privacy, but there are better and more reli= able ways to track users if someone want to do that, because they can=E2=80= =99t be sure the prefix is persistent =E2=80=A6 =20 Just take a look to: http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ or https://panopticlick.eff.org =20 I feel that it is much more important to be able to define services by name= s, with stable addresses that anything else. =20 Of course, if the user prefers not to have a stable prefix, I=E2=80=99ve se= en ISPs that in the =E2=80=9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D allow the user to choos= e that option. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 7 de noviembre de 2018, 6:11 Para: 'Clark Gaylord' , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is= no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offe= r new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... Regars, Jordi=EF=BB=BF =20 While this may be worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes cha= nge, even if you think you know the business of the errant ISP more than th= ey do. Hosts need to do something reasonable when they change. Neither usin= g invalid addresses nor growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses witho= ut bound qualify as "reasonable". =20 --ckg =20 Privacy experts (inside and outside IETF) recommend changing assigned= prefixes about every day. Maybe IETF participants need to be better educat= ed on privacy implications of static IPv6 prefix assignments. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3624421732_527794258 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I think basing privacy in the prefix is persistent or not is = a broken concept.

 

It i= s one of the parameters for privacy, but there are better and more reliable= ways to track users if someone want to do that, because they can=E2=80=99t= be sure the prefix is persistent =E2=80=A6

&= nbsp;

Just take a look to:

http://webkay.robinlinus.com/<= /o:p>

or

https://panopticlick.eff.org

&= nbsp;

I feel that it is much more important to be able to= define services by names, with stable addresses that anything else.

 

Of course, if the user prefe= rs not to have a stable prefix, I=E2=80=99ve seen ISPs that in the =E2=80= =9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D allow the user to choose that option.<= /span>


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

<= div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0= cm 0cm'>

De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de "STA= RK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles,= 7 de noviembre de 2018, 6:11
Para: 'Clark Gaylord' <cgaylord@= vt.edu>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.i= etf.org>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>=
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks

 

It is much better to educate ISP so they understa= nd that with IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not d= o that. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is = persistent ...

Regars,
Jordi=EF=BB=BF

=

 

While t= his may be worthwhile (arguable) it is also irrelevant. Prefixes change, ev= en if you think you know the business of the errant ISP more than they do. Hosts need to d= o something reasonable when they change. Neither using invalid addresses no= r growing the list of no-longer-valid-addresses without bound qualify as &q= uot;reasonable".

 

--ckg

 

<bhs> Privacy experts (inside and outside IET= F) recommend changing assigned prefixes about every day. Maybe IETF partici= pants need to be better educated on privacy implications of static IPv6 pre= fix assignments.

_______________________________________________ v6ops mai= ling list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops <= /o:p>


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3624421732_527794258-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 17:00:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DD81292AD; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k8vAz2S24iPo; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBE4C12870E; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id n18so10274282lfh.6; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 17:00:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=t0RQfF1TBjF8U64sNo5qXqe5hkAFzSbblwxyQ0HUttU=; b=l5v6m9abncEQ1cox3DB8bYYFWVXTPqAjWqbgtTxIXXMtiX/S4zfqo03Jv2BT4evSjT tBNu3nvX4NyD6jDBAnDPaunXlqe/BkDAVY+6PD9sqFZshUCxj3d2aM9dLCcjcPlVqVGI KDL4Si8NlAWOLWJ58UsSZhm1Q+F9VSt4LrwxpCahe6E1LrWNRDCpt26n59dINAagsCS9 L9PkdEIPdyHaprUZat6rhxBCsbUTFa5hJxBrsA8S0cUzgzHb/yB2PJSSJHzR4DCnX7WJ /TVUdwYzyypXG0wVHUFKfPiJALtogbS4IxABSuPQ0WIwA4TvpZSl6qXhtVRHUDU/KkFw NidA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=t0RQfF1TBjF8U64sNo5qXqe5hkAFzSbblwxyQ0HUttU=; b=nGD+FkT8CVaGjASTvfJ2oAJuy86+F7OKYiBQzvP5DXH/7uzPGOP9qfEZIev2POuXBE F4J4K9jupDycU6Q8W4kYciRDnLgxXYlss0+N3Ryxn0BrqNHsND/wjqrk+qG1FwIGKbnJ x6Qj0Ik/MdJ0oS3xiqURG6YgbURz94EoWOTYnGnX3tJP+iebgN71ohGWBAK8bj6LX5L8 F8Hsqg5zc+GGhuGKPlH99hSCkIM3aRq6zeovA1unsprELmHfN1qF99eH9VEXAW6F0QuA rwPFqGV7Esmzz8dkaXx/UoNs+3bu+9YV5TUauGKJmhOnNqtmadcM+QeN0uL/dJIR+0b+ zTIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJDVrsQrl+yaBgSKBkqvF9gEnTELjzWKuPlLEnJVjkHi7V9otiP uNricLWOR4Gu/L1biMk6ccsE/77EORi4KICy477x6vTT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cihr4HV66u0S7gvKdW9xIl8s5J+zy9X2HGifmF5h5mmi4hsDTitLbn7Zs8+K/J/Gqr3qowrDOnnoJCZAT39JM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:26ce:: with SMTP id m197mr13659961lfm.23.1541552408616; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 17:00:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 06:29:52 +0530 Message-ID: To: 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b7e531057a08a339" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:00:14 -0000 --000000000000b7e531057a08a339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form doesn't offer following services like: 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or downstream routers). 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; *without introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types*. Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? Thanks & Regards, Naveen ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt To: Naveen Kottapalli A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management Revision: 00 Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management Document date: 2018-11-06 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 15 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management Abstract: The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) provides a provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address and manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not use features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing any new ICMPv6 message or option types. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000b7e531057a08a339 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its curre= nt form doesn't offer following services like:

1. Soliciting a prefix of spec= ific length.=C2=A0 The length could be of either /64 bit prefix (which woul= d generally be solicited by nodes) or non /64 bit prefix (which would gener= ally be solicited by either CPE or downstream routers).
2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device.= =C2=A0 This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the pre= fix to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes.

To achieve the above = objectives, a ND based message protocol is introduced in the below draft th= at does what a DHCPv6 node do; without introducing any new message types= or new option types or flag types.
Can you all share your thoughts on the dr= aft?

T= hanks & Regards,
Naveen


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at= 6:14 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix= -management-00.txt
To: Naveen Kottapalli <nkottapalli@benu.net>


A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-man= agement
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management Document date:=C2=A0 2018-11-06
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-mana= gement/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00<= br> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix= -management


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) prov= ides a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfigurati= on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision.=C2=A0 Also, unavail= ability of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to n= ot use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifeti= me,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc.=C2=A0 This docu= ment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solic= it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducin= g any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0new ICMPv6 message or option types.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000b7e531057a08a339-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 18:26:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE1612DDA3 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:26:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hzoGXm8vo9xg for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB764127332 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 41312B0; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:26:09 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1541557569; bh=57V5SSv+DSwRXKSNIVvmd0Z8m34zca2hwQMCa2v7a7Y=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=wJQE5VuF8qP/XRFvgU35ZMGtytkfT+bYk+PAs7ml0vog3B6LDsumPNiDyZpOmS9Om moBYWng1NsTmWeDAPi8t2RIR4FY/pkp2Czfs2omJaUU4JAbgXot++EgZjlLNLtUHwT hSFKxBMdqbO+0F3ABwBHKFR3ApbH5mqg9aOhRYQM= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F24DAF; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:26:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:26:09 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Mark Smith cc: Nick Hilliard , v6ops list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 02:26:15 -0000 On Wed, 7 Nov 2018, Mark Smith wrote: > This makes sense as the host treated its interface flapping as though it > was a transient packet loss issue. It didn't place any significance on > the point of packet loss being at one of its direct interfaces instead > of somewhere else in the network. My opinion on this is that for servers this makes sense, but for most users they're most helped by just taking away all addresses on an interface when it goes down and let application re-connect. This is also what most connection managers do by default for desktop applications. Interface down -> remove addresses. If you attach again and then use the same address, that's fine. If you're using privacy addresses, most likely you won't have the same one again so outgoing connections will have to be re-established. Now, I fully support all your suggestions on enhancements to detect if the same network comes back up again after the flap, but if one doesn't have that then it's better for desktop applications to remove the addresses at link-down and just re-start everything at link-up. To keep addresses on an interface that went down and do no detection of "did I connect to the same network again and if I didn't THEN wipe the addresses" will just harm users (as OP noticed). -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue Nov 6 18:34:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0FD12785F for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gz6lKFAfmuXl for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7A12126CB6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id d18so5108198qto.8 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 18:34:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=x44fTUChV2j9FsdwQmEdsc/zCVlgNWOuNG0jpt4p0aE=; b=WOfLEAQBmJ+fBHQV6ffA10BMv9Sgjb9k+yBQXgH5N1VzkRFkxpjhxyPvhfkQXDfNN+ 2th9E72rSF8ejMTF5/IZNKRBxk45hcQh9pOW8LaJd1RkSLlnZ5SsbTJqPidgvtCKLlB1 A5sPghPnqngs1e+mXPrubISy+rjuZNGXt0173uNw48q8jJzZX51zVFij6BlDb2zCsWzi 7Ap9wZE50KHyMz4Ya0lwIPmYzNVlXr9100dSkxklATKNvv6wnt/5aU1XLeXdjafF+a2p sDg8dcK487Kgu7KCk9q3fT3/Md0Tg79KJCUjq8FQ4gD5jhAyhpTLlIjnegymLbxGc/Uf Nb+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x44fTUChV2j9FsdwQmEdsc/zCVlgNWOuNG0jpt4p0aE=; b=FzyxKXVKQPqvvYgtgvsAHJJEPHvt7CuvqPVQc5QMvMS+YSpj7jTkWSUsnw5FWTruaZ i6Re6CSYjhPn6p8mwabVLlHmRGzcz8PB/G+0MpaYYsAJ0neUY1Wd/r72+H07RCmqR2Cl Xbe+FMBcqJQRYhw5HK81iHhF8hmm1XkqbsQfNAHTbyPWyCoVnseGsQdIGTlhQYcm3OvZ SDuSAW+Yu0Unj07g42bcFAVrN/n71ZNtvpbcyQ+53drxZaU06jn7Pb1ERecn05nO/TzE 67m4JBRq3PmqNiFWhMEq5wT6lVdwnNw6qM2A4kYvObxSv1mwvCh9vl5+2IRuz6b2o0lG ku3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI+s3yVtrDIXfNF10B0G+Oh+3Xp6xvvpEDzrktQaHf7F2FCzWOc UNakP//oVgAC1qN/qDICItmgG2ZX1gHQWhctkv0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ci3w1nJCOHAM4fGlDA8Fx7T8EQDrANKNh9rokUtx/Y8EOkic50yf2APXjA1LXARWcIp1YxL81MA4Ewi1f1A3U= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d8b4:: with SMTP id q49mr39287qvj.137.1541558086706; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 18:34:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:34:34 +1100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: florian@openbsd.org, V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 02:34:52 -0000 On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 10:44 AM Mark Smith wrote: > I thought I'd read in an RFC somewhere that the one of the factors in > source address selection was the value of the preferred lifetime of an > address, so addresses with greater value preferred or valid lifetimes > would be preferred as a tie breaker. > > However, I can't seem to remember which RFC, so maybe I just thought > it would be that way and then an implementation I looked at worked > that way. It wasn't an RFC, it was my draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-linkova-6man-default-addr-selection-update-00 It expired because nobody seems to be interested in implementing this. If we can have an implementation I'd be more than happy to revive the document. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Tue Nov 6 18:38:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6909A128CE4; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TiXqYXlS4xaS; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7416C126CB6; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id k1-v6so6708226pgq.1; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 18:38:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Jxf070nbTkm4Ppe44Biz1e22DuVjZ4dBEHa2tmDHD3c=; b=PVSP+wrDj8VbM07xMNiKt9azhQymy8vfbTPArnaeNlZlbBUuvh7Q5kITvaXprVO2RY T/9TTpcNyLYaJZAwsTg7b+vpXOnnEl7V9WR0CQdxYP37GSZcrDHkuAs8Yi2oxpyHx8eC gvBi1gpNj9sD47h/w2RQdbQ6YCDCO7tvRWQpH7XJOaOxu5qFMaoG1yTxhOz/E2dAMiVP hpZwD8KxW3UO53j+a3bQ14smi4iVGsRdTp+xzOury7DDGR5gfxLa6Fp5zk3kd2Zx5JCL HOkoBE70DoPSKdehow2tDXgXeUlU6u2i+jS9P+ILZBdGBr4GopcNqFz0oXSp/Z1JI9Kr DEmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Jxf070nbTkm4Ppe44Biz1e22DuVjZ4dBEHa2tmDHD3c=; b=nfGIyvnVb9cUfqlfYE2IHXd00Z4rPtG9NcALfxXro51+8I4UKFvVN0XsexfLyRMqZH Zo1UYTNiU/pITrC1O860KhPhJnmEtZzOrXQBEtL2DKA4terU0cjXXjx5LsxNMlU+vMW8 Fmiq3IdiQhsliqoM0QiJNJyzflD4pj2iczqzOZGTLYR8TKHUsL/KspOZ8w0h+u6BNDdK LFtEObaEzPFDw7h6gYHzGzPHw2Kpy00nBzJradQY8RTJpPYzpxwb+RuXjkUNd0+ST02M GALPBbnCZK3MrVSYqI9ouRqtCH5Vgs/htzJZbM8PQMBfL2zfgV6RXmcwElEJRZsCXrNb DSug== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKXm/IH6+kQxAepaW7f6JtJic25X9VqcGFNUaQ7yKaj79vjs46l SaV8GlZL2RdA+wMiC5w+/lo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eI3uTDau+ikXzZk80Ivxxeujyr8PrAj1iHmXDHQieoCGR59T2razUevdSJmdS2a9jP5z5I4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a62:4301:: with SMTP id q1-v6mr80028pfa.163.1541558328963; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 18:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:9df0:b919:995c:c72b? ([2001:67c:1232:144:9df0:b919:995c:c72b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u7-v6sm58369383pfl.34.2018.11.06.18.38.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Nov 2018 18:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <5B1684C1-A48A-4C53-949A-8DDAA7DF25BA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5CF419C5-9D1E-49EA-A057-69B1312DDAC5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 09:38:45 +0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: 6man WG , v6ops list To: Naveen Kottapalli References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 02:38:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5CF419C5-9D1E-49EA-A057-69B1312DDAC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Naveen Kottapalli = wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form = doesn't offer following services like: >=20 > 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of = either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or = non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or = downstream routers). SLAAC doesn't "solicit" anything. If you want a prefix with any specific = attributes, you're in the territory of RFC 3633. > 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This = could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to = make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. SLAAC doesn't do *anything* with prefixes. > To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is = introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without = introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. >=20 > Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? My first thought is that a 2001 draft is a bit long in the tooth. Was it = really posted in June 2001? The second is that "autoconfiguration" is a bit different than anything = that one might solicit from or release to a network. For example, with = addresses, routing is handled by the router that advertised the prefix = in its RA (and maybe by other routers); when one solicits and starts to = use a prefix, one needs to advertise it in routing, which means that one = is going to need to implement and advertise some routing protocol. Third - L2TP is a bit dated. Maybe that's the reason for the 2001 date = on the draft. A 2013 article = (https://www.networkworld.com/article/2163334/tech-primers/what-can-l2tp-d= o-for-your-network-.html) calls it "unusual". What is your use case? = What are you trying to achieve? --Apple-Mail=_5CF419C5-9D1E-49EA-A057-69B1312DDAC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlviUDUACgkQEhdRnd2G P+B1UxAAiVlFAoegc7n3Q4I3GhnaLZI/iO9/pEGaVGR8ROm8va42u6SIPmDUX5rI wSnSLSCleGpChd5cM7vIciG4UEfWsGC78Xp72lawhQV3ffu79y7KVq/n+5GhXbyU jQXoTfNnsJ6OHTDe/7oO21Hzt8ZD+nLgfb2FFNn3XoSUByMHc8yD2p7QCDY5iaIj JjgD4PYPRI5I+YIrt4v1CBWbUMg54nq3Zq1LJJgEgovmrVlFFkMch+3zrsf0aotv gB4xaUmpT3xDzk3b+HHAuKIPDNB/k1PvEeaxHB7oujyMUjCx1NedTPsOBvgveP1w 0UF/P3ilyiDgyyV52mPRqlCPnd+g8ZtAHMeJPGIgXOsaNiImR9mcR7aeaBvrjuJw qXRhA/RkJgPGZUo05O06Ab8PMw3nVzjKm73eoyGZLgJ0wGAX8B54jfaiUQt1UKAc f/1Iex57WeDnFsAJlNsdmxKZ5BXu5VRxgK/2mNGlMB+OUlZRqN7ghvXBXLrpjPCk tJv5Cdn39R+p5QSDTY296QbF3doffkkAZROthN2oJkJWGbijAMWAjgUdGyeEXAIt jgU0sjynTNhJlnwHnD4BndLtBofnPIzd88xqUaxGbvZRuIvoL0zTjClOuv2iPAC+ BmiviwjqP0gsPxTgqSb4lg2nnuMqZ+dlV8WMxXpWNkwOfSXNsgk= =dGJb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5CF419C5-9D1E-49EA-A057-69B1312DDAC5-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 19:02:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D984130E10 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 19:02:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KZSwze10ALbT for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 19:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61FA7130ECA for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 19:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id a132so19897950qkg.1 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 19:02:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yKzagiHuV5QqMD65dbC1FMRimgWqhED/B87PwkpBitE=; b=NCqsGKLmJ9J7S/QdXj2WTLxDhDM1Z9SISNv/sgZR9oPE+3ddIZ/jocpTIvUgBY0V7W ze4Fyt5jH2LzslO0nRVxlvhb79hfNvIWK/zqw6WgbvUvAIlElAasrTGplJqnsnjwI9b7 yDmEQS3R5RTFT4+MqnOi8cUb+Df5XNI4Sy5gOlKxFF9eperZg9g5Q8vqqKnPTyviuOPe gh+JBJWO6Tg/gqH4MUhn2xgybdxgmfqoJnQfldkHS3zbT649bZ7uufnPdJKm5s3DVQBB fctWNoGy9Px+D39atGX5sXTTsed4UbiabozfjqUMz/kRnZ/CR0ae8KLQbhjZ6rdzMjg+ U2Cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yKzagiHuV5QqMD65dbC1FMRimgWqhED/B87PwkpBitE=; b=dErSzvNdBPpIXxF5WIDVpGnA8GfHI72/KCqRDye9u1PoP4vZrXhi1MrZN3fCi5IueZ xl4gBb56e/TKOy3tMD6h7XmY4VmfJrQ5Otrve27I2dtxiuatBiOwnMSHlXrOUWNudht0 VcHdqatONT01y9Il04vu21RMN9ZzKgwEJN48J0NnRkcJ4eeUTddfRsy9Nwy7HDaLlB7k arD/s7y4LXCR+nAAeUq0io9ewtZYI9YaM2McKOt/YubvcYuI6Bt6lVm1vUVkXU+F3bHR ISDhA537RimL8t8VOwGxx9LN8Kr+hmsn1kppXxnoZUsnQj+sidssD6eKU/k1fkNVqava E9Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gL13tVzEuul8BIv8VMtFerd0DIyn5ckKnYijx001dpWfS5/KTkh mn0qfqy2L/0dfZ4F0ivwMQmDcSiCnUJKYXjsfjE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5egVcBNf5b1psNIYI9kWdp+qaf1KKbJw5TFMygBuCajpizJvYo9ZizxNsXk4UOA4MR3R69BCjnqtiuPLdqHTXc= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f80f:: with SMTP id x15mr78397qkh.341.1541559731137; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 19:02:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:01:59 +1100 Message-ID: To: florian@openbsd.org Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 03:02:14 -0000 On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 10:35 PM Florian Obser wrote: > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. It looks like a bug to me. The device gets disconnected from one network and connects to another so addresses need to be reconfigured. I've not seen such behavior for a while (but it reminds me a but Windows used to have with 802.1x and IPv4, when 802.1x re-authentication did not trigger IPv4 address reconfiguration). The main question is 'how to tell if it's the same or different network'. Do both network routers have the same LLA by any chance? I wonder what happens with IPv4 config in those cases...Does your laptop keep the same v4 address as well? > A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with > legacy-IP only. > While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a > user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd ) > in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to > handle this case. > > The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses > around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid), > there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier. Well, I'd expect that disconnecting from one network and reconnecting to another is a very clear signal to re-initialize the network configuration. How does your laptop behave when it is moved between VLANs as a result of 802.1x re-auth? All sane implementations clear IPv[46] configuration (however I remember that Network Manager used to have issues with it but I was told it's supposed to be fixed.) > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? I think what you are looking for is https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6059 > I'm not entirely sure you are real. I'm not indeed. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Tue Nov 6 22:35:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84BA130DD9 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:35:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7AGmitqTJBb for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68E08130E16 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.139.126] (dhcp-8b7e.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.139.126]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id wA76ZkSC019639 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:35:49 -0800 To: Florian Obser , v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: <93002a4b-b04a-06ec-a79e-9a77141043f4@acm.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 22:35:45 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVYUITN4g1gNyWxqcYCsE7cpKHHPW+sjzBnlhSeK/r9IfNzRXtAqJEYkDguY6PkIa4Obluv6mvf6sn/B1qTKv8lobom5D+7upx0= X-Sonic-ID: C;bF/DW1fi6BGS4ecbDaCztA== M;zssqXVfi6BGS4ecbDaCztA== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 06:35:55 -0000 We do have a RFC on the books which tried to address this: RFC6059 Simple Procedures for Detecting Network Attachment in IPv6. I don't know to what extent what's implemented matches what is in that RFC, but it does include forgetting about old prefixes and default routers when it detects the node is on a different link. Erik On 11/6/18 03:34, Florian Obser wrote: > Hi, > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. > > For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64 is > advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the end > of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home. > > At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the > laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link and a > router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the laptop > has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:42::/64. > > Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the > Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. > > If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a prefix > advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from both > prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set for > source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie > breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations can be > reach while others can't. > > A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with > legacy-IP only. > > While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a > user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd ) > in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to > handle this case. > > The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses > around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid), > there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier. > > So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and the > knee jerk reaction was: > Hum, interesting. > Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. > No wait, when the interface comes up. > No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation and > if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the addresses > and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table of the > router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. > > I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that deletes > addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - including > moving to legacy IP only. > > In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link comes > up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that > prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but causes > problems when moving to legacy-IP only. > > Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs around > and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). > > Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores them on wake > up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behaviour > but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only deletes them > later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. > > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this > doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should > have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, > I have more complicated scenarios.) > > Thanks, > Florian > From nobody Tue Nov 6 23:45:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C39E12785F; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:45:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8p1Ugt0cMuu; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7E95127333; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (dhcp-8190.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A319FECBE55; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:45:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379FE8B0631; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:45:50 +0700 (+07) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:45:50 +0700 Cc: 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Naveen Kottapalli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:45:58 -0000 Naveen, We have been down this road before with https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 Which is what led to RFC3633. Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that = don=E2=80=99t implement DHCP PD? Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, rather = than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented yet. Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? Cheers, Ole > On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli = wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form = doesn't offer following services like: >=20 > 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of = either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or = non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or = downstream routers). > 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This = could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to = make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. >=20 > To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is = introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without = introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. >=20 > Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? >=20 > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen >=20 >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > To: Naveen Kottapalli >=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management > Revision: 00 > Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management > Document date: 2018-11-06 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 15 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-= 00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management= >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) provides = a > provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address and > manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration > (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of > DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not = use > features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, > renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document > proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit > prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like > renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing any > new ICMPv6 message or option types. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Nov 7 01:11:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6405B128CF2; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:10:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7fScTXmdaRg; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EC3C128CB7; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA79AjGw056447; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:10:45 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 15CC32025A5; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:10:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CAA2024CF; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:10:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA79Aig9000416; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:10:44 +0100 To: Ole Troan , Naveen Kottapalli Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:10:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 09:10:56 -0000 Le 07/11/2018 à 08:45, Ole Troan a écrit : > Naveen, > > We have been down this road before with > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 > > Which is what led to RFC3633. > > Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that don’t implement DHCP PD? For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not implement DHCPv6 PD. Alex > Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, rather than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented yet. > Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? > > Cheers, > Ole > > >> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form doesn't offer following services like: >> >> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or downstream routers). >> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. >> >> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. >> >> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? >> >> Thanks & Regards, >> Naveen >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: >> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> To: Naveen Kottapalli >> >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management >> Revision: 00 >> Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management >> Document date: 2018-11-06 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 15 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management >> >> >> Abstract: >> The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) provides a >> provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address and >> manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration >> (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of >> DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not use >> features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, >> renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document >> proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit >> prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like >> renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing any >> new ICMPv6 message or option types. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Nov 7 01:20:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749E4128C65 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:20:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0n4qWT2rXfX for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B98D1286D9 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA79K6G7039938 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:20:06 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CA1A202555 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:20:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71CF0202192 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:20:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA79K5dX007314 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:20:06 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <7e7da80c-9954-9cd3-e0e4-732dc111b5e6@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:20:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 09:20:11 -0000 Le 06/11/2018 à 12:34, Florian Obser a écrit : > Hi, > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. I do see this behaviour every now and then on some 4G modules on linux. There are two reasons they accomulate unusable addresses: - mid-way re-connection ('connection' on 4G has multiple intermediary states, as opposed to older 3G and 2.5G where only one state 'connected' existed) brings a new prefix. - privacy change of the Interface ID without deleting the old one. Accumulating too many addresses is obviously a reason of concern. There have been attacks on machines to overload them with too many addresses. Alex > > For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64 is > advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the end > of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home. > > At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the > laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link and a > router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the laptop > has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:42::/64. > > Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the > Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. > > If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a prefix > advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from both > prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set for > source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie > breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations can be > reach while others can't. > > A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with > legacy-IP only. > > While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a > user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd ) > in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to > handle this case. > > The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses > around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid), > there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier. > > So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and the > knee jerk reaction was: > Hum, interesting. > Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. > No wait, when the interface comes up. > No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation and > if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the addresses > and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table of the > router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. > > I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that deletes > addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - including > moving to legacy IP only. > > In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link comes > up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that > prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but causes > problems when moving to legacy-IP only. > > Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs around > and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). > > Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores them on wake > up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behaviour > but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only deletes them > later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. > > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this > doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should > have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, > I have more complicated scenarios.) > > Thanks, > Florian > From nobody Wed Nov 7 01:29:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8053128CB7; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:29:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IQAN3tl0xVGf; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 266FE1286D9; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (dhcp-8190.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C886FECBE7C; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 09:29:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8278B2BBB; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:29:30 +0700 (+07) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:29:30 +0700 Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 09:29:38 -0000 >> We have been down this road before with >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 >> Which is what led to RFC3633. >> Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that = don=E2=80=99t implement DHCP PD? >=20 > For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not = implement DHCPv6 PD. And I=E2=80=99m sure platforms that will not implement this=E2=80=A6 DHCPv6 PD is just a wire format specified between a requesting router = and a delegating router directly connected. If you cannot implement that, it=E2=80=99s going to be hard to justify = implementing the exact same, just with different naming. Ole >> Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, = rather than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented = yet. >> Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? >> Cheers, >> Ole >>> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello, >>>=20 >>> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form = doesn't offer following services like: >>>=20 >>> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of = either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or = non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or = downstream routers). >>> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This = could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to = make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. >>>=20 >>> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is = introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without = introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. >>>=20 >>> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? >>>=20 >>> Thanks & Regards, >>> Naveen >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> From: >>> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM >>> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> To: Naveen Kottapalli >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to = the >>> IETF repository. >>>=20 >>> Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management >>> Revision: 00 >>> Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management >>> Document date: 2018-11-06 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 15 >>> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-= 00.txt >>> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ >>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 >>> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management= >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) = provides a >>> provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address = and >>> manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration >>> (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of >>> DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not = use >>> features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, >>> renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document >>> proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit >>> prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like >>> renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing = any >>> new ICMPv6 message or option types. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> The IETF Secretariat >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Nov 7 01:34:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50601286D9 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:34:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9yDI_xAkbFj for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E268B12008A for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:34:09 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3853E41C12 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:34:08 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F6541C10; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:34:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 18AA820DB5; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:34:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:34:08 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9QCuX7m0BhSEE9G7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 09:34:14 -0000 --9QCuX7m0BhSEE9G7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Nov 06, 2018 at 09:47:28PM +0000, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53: > > This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home network > > (which was the original question). >=20 > if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on=20 > the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing=20 > ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't,=20 > this is an implementation bug. So, where is this written down? (Which was part of the original question..= =2E) Linux, for example, does not do that (unless some userland daemon takes care of it). I'm with you, though, that not doing this is causing annoyance - but=20 doing this the way Windows does it ("all TCP sessions are killed right away if the interface goes down") is causing even *more* annoyance... > If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 mobility. How can you get mobility without interface flaps? (But that's a red herring, mobile IPv6 is even more dead) Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --9QCuX7m0BhSEE9G7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvisY0ACgkQ31bAZeTO f8V1NxAAiQeCTnkV2LHr69+OXoVxqYFvrKAaLv4PYCw3DBJYXjEWNW4t1XRAfznl jSYb9Ozb9xu7YtFa61nMUz7W1ie4TizEf+xMaLtH6IpczHfqttYQnem0ptgWShqb d4dkKZ9U86xG23Ng/mNo5Qv1OqS1FOCaZjBo9Gbm2zIU5c6A6PTaxPuGNrhLDCCm ka/MteMdNSofFsj1H3X+OngGF+6MIYLHLvWsPDUgbylbcPIpBKyVYvZqw+rprcWb o06b/2DjIHaRbYBX5qW/jpNFtvvyvv1Fi19Rm+il24mbYwte5N32lZp4rb1WN3pm MKqlITWPd53puoinz0NNwaUa1esFwIQC6y11NfiRy+uQ3ZZNbIuyD/iL+fwUWrmg /0vBgmGw0b2JLuZv005F5NVt9s3GufsZK6p28Fj5mitL4eY9cBpgyvb79w15q7J0 KiBzl1AyLsilygRv9md21J5GbUz54cokBZIovX74br3AteT7QP7sldsg3smlKOcm EBVyzn19oRTrpgp7FrSIPqojgcFYpCdy1MKxHRHBoKUip07hdHQjNgWUL79B56ab 68xA2rh6PIQhegoEVNnA7tlvv4cqBL6frDmC6FQDkm9nx4ItAW7jcK/oWCJDU0DK I7JKO5br3PzUQIkLWtiM0dMJKYrNdzM97IN24Wdo2QTzuwqDscI= =SCYr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9QCuX7m0BhSEE9G7-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 01:40:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24396129619 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAMHx9ROvL2k for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6E00128CB7 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 01:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id b22-v6so5874133qtr.11 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:40:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4RNKaEM0mWM9pXl9047rLsSgiQkTJPKFUUepIrnidYo=; b=TcKhRXZXV9z7fFoQE4eflFnJ57elS0rRJpUO7XDagnHdXI0pkYujS2KQ8Oox2WJ7xD VnTsgBLJ1e0/kNcGDBUQvJxKqmClomU11sHaQwb5TV7ahZRSpYwBBG9cnCGra34d3QQd btXDKsqlK+cGG9HBEb+avNgEFvDtLXw7TVEhEyV5bk4LfHyg0eyINRvod0DY9aF0ISAY Amcw2OhKFYp+FrV7+Ej1QCqEYiV/McfywssnWnsTCMe2EnXAA/ZzHbRZXDjgf5Rb/FPU F7nj+yd1iWumA0hU456cI0/or2E80IMRQAK/vpV6SM/rll5CQgJNdeMG7SlKUhUxAZHZ UFQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4RNKaEM0mWM9pXl9047rLsSgiQkTJPKFUUepIrnidYo=; b=IcdEDAoKdli2VkzOxZz5EfSpGzSlVSBKwqECqbZaPWpIzSLt2+legvSJjP6vfpBBKw uj5fNlrqqopkxYYRPztfSjOWX7EZczsJL2EIfvtdyyPnzllxf5sMx34KM0e14yzIWRfY N4dKaZTTQJApJJ/0Cx0bAN1fCSILUWSNndm+SZN9jIW71soBktH6mgPI6nV2kE30fCbu DV57iM1UrLE6lbfyfQ3Wxi2jvlt5CBNlZ59tf8pFuLHg7GhpRJItOyPXU0/4p8bxNtDe 0pTnUVQLij2pn47pFt3ignUgNkPXDyQo+Ub6SEIZMD+7ibT35Pk3FCAxnW42WN5QFGYj 7e4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gL8MY1TKMsK/psVQmmjNfGC++yhwez9dvS/B0fgSXA9l7IVBjLk SflYoHuYKsZVA4up3QHIuqwqqmgcPS2jEs1SQot7C+PToaE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5d9qNPr4c9M2aDi5oP/RGP8bBLEA6L0OP8dQE1dG3YizIPkigYHCFmkpRPou3iEXBOmxUkyXkuluATsv5B1TQE= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7044:: with SMTP id y4-v6mr918707qtm.325.1541583614656; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 01:40:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:40:02 +1100 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: Nick Hilliard , V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 09:40:17 -0000 On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:34 PM Gert Doering wrote: > > if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap on > > the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing > > ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't, > > this is an implementation bug. > > So, where is this written down? (Which was part of the original question...) I believe it's what https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6059 is about -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 7 03:33:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE73130DCA for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id epM9At026zIM for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4BCF130E06 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id f19-v6so11177961wmb.0 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 03:33:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=MMU6uGwZjQwZeUszsgig0aF0vuq2NSn01dn/QtiOcGA=; b=TwUU/u/fddDn4hZvYWOHO2TCSRASwKE3HdjW+NGDffJmx2mfvvZe1GJ+y2k6jp0eG2 oIxO0LCS+gbqrJZNeBYSOvgeUmJOw9kX8xbu2FGsF/aAp19RmCyrbnXMaS0RN6r2+Bqg HQspIJ+BLTCBxoCB9xM02Q+uQ1gxPayRPgmhfUyhIB/aTzzYm7f40cBYsVdEB1HqtPbs m0yxww2Fy4TCxYqXseyu/j+09l8tm1JA3hM+rCITr6/1uU06Os/otpTX+N2DskddHMf0 oI3kMziauIj5cOuPvf0jiOL6r9s5n+kSTxmWhpNXbGdH1g210Hbb0BzSnmkmoNgV1ln2 JeLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=MMU6uGwZjQwZeUszsgig0aF0vuq2NSn01dn/QtiOcGA=; b=tZZFfAtKHC1rc4SgOSupoLrhpxdhDhiTjiatEdOcQtJ1Tw4Mi32Uk8YkViMVwn1U/t pzp/nWPVJ1z37IrcixooAbs6YtYDqjT0lskmFWWKPz7MzewNBfxIYi8P2UBsQXVJXbeQ Cjmu+eXiGc9RPZXmQtCNT/bdM1PpTuqiksDuMGB9lz3IWBKKQxm+ehHikq4Z9LGnppsI b14oC5Jqm07zdOI6G4Q/GTQlwdHMBBhQvWxTOwAAbB9LtvqKL/XlDWh5TsRyRA0qi8t1 8tmsaP/iczzgEfjlQOuG0hVxBmCDl1A2uuBxAzVqPCrEGprnJnpxLmlnSklEAqytV5mc si9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKAQsCtmAzGYsNTSSZwqM7vLXhwCxHwBUKGMO/NWGyKDzA7slU2 3A3AqtxbaH5jrbIMVH+l1vZ/whTP X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cG0VNQ0UZHIVeFDNETiQPqQmvcDGMTM2fnBiRkrQ8W6b4mZvo5zd23XiUtcPR91QZMRUGA7g== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f712:: with SMTP id v18-v6mr1664976wmh.48.1541590383885; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 03:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:f93f:984:eeff:c682? ([2001:67c:370:128:f93f:984:eeff:c682]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y83-v6sm953263wmb.20.2018.11.07.03.33.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 03:33:02 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <6EE4DFFB-C910-4783-812F-BB8B7FF97EBE@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5C662B4-EEC1-4BAF-BFF4-F4E0CDCFAC11"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:32:57 +0700 In-Reply-To: <72d4b2d3-7fe8-666e-5a38-b28531be7d39@gmail.com> To: IPv6 Operations References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <72d4b2d3-7fe8-666e-5a38-b28531be7d39@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 11:33:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D5C662B4-EEC1-4BAF-BFF4-F4E0CDCFAC11 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Nov 7, 2018, at 5:52 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 2018-11-07 10:47, Nick Hilliard wrote: >> Gert Doering wrote on 06/11/2018 14:53: >>> This does not help my laptop when it moves from office to home = network >>> (which was the original question). >>=20 >> if your laptop does that, then surely it will see an interface flap = on >> the interface used for its default route? In this case, any existing >> ipv6 prefixes should be scrubbed from the interface. If they aren't, >> this is an implementation bug. >=20 > Agreed. I routinely move my laptop between home and office, and I used > to sometimes see sticky addresses on Windows 7, but the source address > selection algorithm never picked them so it didn't matter. I haven't > seen sticky addresses since I switched to Windows 10. I am been at the IETF all week, and have used several different links. = I only have three IPv6 address (link-local, global, global temporary), = no old ones, nor the ones I get when at home. Seems fine to me. Bob >=20 > Brian >=20 >> If there aren't any interface flaps, then this would be ipv6 = mobility. >>=20 >> Nick >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_D5C662B4-EEC1-4BAF-BFF4-F4E0CDCFAC11 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlvizWkACgkQrut0EXfn u6jqzAf/R/yrglhWIX5JP5i0a0oGL/bwsbBZlf7bfD4S4pwJRsvTbklmiJOLaTq5 mX/xjinE/L3M5QSfZomFtHprlMIKFNs8BXzt9Do6RosehQdatJMFBsAXd2VEbOeG JgNE0+h926aFz1HTC1L2wHXnbHalbr1rNh0UOdfQ1O55U7MemyGELEUZ8bvv9ICW ouTHHvZmONlrPL3XwB28ZAUkVhNk1/8cmT2W4llEau0IwZZixXuhu1r+wIGMSU3H qJWorbd4f1i1mkmlvPgJwGb4jPNRguP47rXFGGd7KZeajjyu0i02xR/sj7JLg9St z+4gBCb2tSRh+ximihirM9EMko3KHA== =FziC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D5C662B4-EEC1-4BAF-BFF4-F4E0CDCFAC11-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 05:17:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703D5127133 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:17:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XltSG_tjHCLn for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4986F1274D0 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:17:20 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wA7CGk3O083251 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Nov 2018 12:16:46 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Gert Doering Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:17:18 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 13:17:22 -0000 Gert Doering wrote on 07/11/2018 09:34: > How can you get mobility without interface flaps? openvpn, obviously :-) Nick From nobody Wed Nov 7 06:28:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF43130E47 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 06:28:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0O3MvLOEccrA for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 06:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from imap.narrans.de (michelangelo.narrans.de [45.77.55.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02994130E2B for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 06:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (imap.narrans.de [local]) by imap.narrans.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 3b60b5b0 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:27:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:27:59 +0100 From: Florian Obser To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181107142759.3qktcivch7laasot@imap.narrans.de> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 14:28:20 -0000 Thanks Mark, Jen and Erik, RFC6059 was indeed what I was looking for. I'm going to implement this in slaacd(8) soonish. -- I'm not entirely sure you are real. From nobody Wed Nov 7 07:08:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268FF130DCA; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:08:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VkAGr6CsVO89; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2106127B92; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id p4-v6so5596336plo.5; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GL+CU+Ppv6GU1zRmd6RIQeXSZmPvNmCw3EPZOZUVWPE=; b=VB9oYygnBA44NCW3UeYijYJwKG/YPcsfWgWFKZvK77dba3KUuZUTWZ6BXymHXu+yaP Zo2r0QIba2R0uyJWwKLqzoHo/iSPnJpBVW5groLq4Za2dLUjkNXUz55qLSIIBreBn09B x5VVBGZw2KuPcTi3idvSjcahOdEreZE3Rvtc3HHe4eiUv3bYjracfYv5teKlZA/p/W7U GNd0ZeU/62G7s677q1wJ6F6nQgXdp7mFCFW0hJggXwWGTC0Rg1JxKC1KJhzdNeZqXeUf YsT/NYMq+X9cNM9OCpUh83QsL0Cr6xDvSNOTOmXChpQ2KgcTzJnjxthadlSzPH2akN8n FDCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GL+CU+Ppv6GU1zRmd6RIQeXSZmPvNmCw3EPZOZUVWPE=; b=IdsQdTNqWkg9ffZBvHHLK93Yds0XCrLf12mvHXQJmdbrKPeC37h71Y8KGTiePIvcyT y1kjY108favf3slIHHxO2s2bjXPMRemJxUZKM2bJmQh1ovrxN5miCNaw2qaFgL7Ypji3 4AEqfyQgr6mEAQNuXg3egaw7iwRW9O+EH2FuTn3wxBVRQa2zpS6/JM/iYvQBBlWopWC6 4XoTYdPG/PYQjvXmzqT6SFjld/hy3A9HuD/hWk4FMUXGbLRYz7T5ftm1PrXj9IZ/RLbm xI3PiliutECOIcFcIiQ48YcrP15pOMaSts9yO14L/zBbbeDg3lrMZFaHnDijJ9/ruOhq AnYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI3SlPXH6rGbC0kyd8H0vCVtT2mrG4Sru4QTHA72c/eXYxCk/h3 oS/71vMnd43meug21gca1xQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cuuXNgHAYQyre1aJnNU4MK9OVKJawSB3Y0OY7hYyl97l3aG5s/8+o5Dxo8YOk9nnmqm7F+kQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:4827:: with SMTP id s36-v6mr567982pld.226.1541603284212; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:b15b:4aa4:12a2:aad6? ([2001:67c:1232:144:b15b:4aa4:12a2:aad6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t78-v6sm2479604pfk.59.2018.11.07.07.07.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:08:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:07:55 +0700 Cc: Ole Troan , Naveen Kottapalli , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 15:08:06 -0000 On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: > For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not = implement DHCPv6 PD. That's their choice. Not everyone wants to use prefixes. Those that do = will figure out how to discuss the fact with the network. = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an = interesting comment on projected traffic volume... From nobody Wed Nov 7 10:27:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6206C130934; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:27:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHo0KvzDuJAG; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F283F12F1AC; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wA7IRa7v039741; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:27:36 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-09.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-09.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.172]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wA7IRX24039721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:27:33 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) by XCH15-06-09.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efac::8988:efac) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:27:32 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.239.219]) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.239.219]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:27:32 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fred Baker , Alexandre Petrescu , Ole Troan CC: 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUdjVRDj+CiE9WP0u+rCSufpeHWKVEdX8AgAAXuICAAGPMgP//rIbg Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:27:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 2A3D98F768A0F1DBABBA185F08DD9023932BB37CDD658D3686D876CE64AFE4D62000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 18:27:44 -0000 The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional messages in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the protocol itself. It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a single unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives within the RS/RA messages. Thanks - Fred From nobody Wed Nov 7 11:40:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83803127133 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmSsgJy71yBb for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6452130DCB for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E4741C10 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:40:11 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C68418E5; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:40:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id CF7B521755; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:40:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:40:11 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lW85TFQtIpIdV4Fa" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:40:19 -0000 --lW85TFQtIpIdV4Fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Nov 07, 2018 at 01:17:18PM +0000, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Gert Doering wrote on 07/11/2018 09:34: > > How can you get mobility without interface flaps? > openvpn, obviously :-) OpenVPN is obviously the right answer to every problem related to networking ("if all you have is a hammer...") - but I'm afraid the IETF will frown upon it... Like, no committees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today's real world networks. (Though the list of openvpn cli options definitely looks like it could have come out of an IETF standardization process) Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --lW85TFQtIpIdV4Fa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvjP5sACgkQ31bAZeTO f8Vubw//bVQSvOzexERm91+JnTKwrtNYBJ3ZzyHerNUnkDUmzdJMmfAdAS3khdtU IJdFshs8KujxnCSxmhI5rSY3a6N9O76+15dTu2/UWH+b3xrIRlAEGUUph76wS7s8 BsRu/j1kbrMVcEYRZP8R1AhErrAlTAOU4c3CSM5Q7YYQfdBMX5zuOZT60Vo/mMYg t6cJutBv5o7+hzffWcVrBY9y2tU+0uOWQWENQc79uRY6UI0zhKmWsYt2/e+u+JCY boDaOpvmHw3z4ZMPw2T81jYTlmnSGwX+OayuO6aUvjsayVKDMFyI78JR6dDUJyqp fw172VtdUVFblMxL8THWosFw6F/uhIitLnyzHbrwPXHiT8czhpEs0cGEQ9by2QsL bZ39eC5vAhHtn4wbYNJni3TTdT0FMuxpmOY07djuviuEltxMRrvYXU1x2LPVQOJy vhg8zchPS2vHgMb2kN+5IzuPSd/8dxW322NfHtNBQCjr2KO7f62PSh8qMYQq9m7C vlKWdUeZq4CBxSWn36P8LSRZA+AjQryCCqPPm0R+S2NM6fBo2b48AktPYI4hInbZ OtVNxfoMX5Xz0tAITSkddP+64MjP9gH0qGRI85LuwH3gEfV8itrSK4hLKd+PVlSj JrZFXpi8Fv6xi3rkuWRVAh8ejPkJmquUA0fbroJuMWBQGW6wVIY= =ynie -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lW85TFQtIpIdV4Fa-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 14:05:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A81E12F1AB; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:05:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cMz3BnepgI3g; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93F501286E3; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id r9-v6so7897322pgv.6; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Rdv1L3a+XbVuuYHL+85B7E625b64WkLxtSWJl8AgX+w=; b=vhsFJ1q0g32uKcBgrOqXTIXjV7qf8qc9XcQnHx44MaS9kNsURyd2HlsTJuq5Zmguvo r3gEibblaDrOyixCB2mNFvQUf8ClnUSH1IdR5IrQXdDKWZ59Tk+qTJ+pHUGFec7QUuSk zvcOyxphgG99HqsPpA8SiLO4tqYIFCbY5UN3iYxGpqBQ1kaLTCUuRXy8qgyRtOmDjpv6 RJ9SocEwzCTxjjOVJqTTvOGG4ejWwpmm/gedF+baFndGSlHtq0gt19xc6UFTKewDaQcv iX9rbtP2UwstVvMh7ETEeUnC0YfTTcKTzkh/BTOiS/vgwwo+p+2O+ColkiW3e3grxf1b 7ouw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Rdv1L3a+XbVuuYHL+85B7E625b64WkLxtSWJl8AgX+w=; b=hrzPFiTNm6FxfytklJn3o8szseRccfyqunhVlvOM8+88JfonZeuK/4I4XyOtIxwYaY UrQ+U/TCbc95uSxXgbccGMp9HIcj6a7wrLGMJ0ngfIMs9x0MTcE3HmLqbOrXoTeMUjm9 xxoZ+aA6MV220yMLPm9Gp+XDdOQ1tN+N2q4idtlQ5rl8GjBJdviim2pdKc8VUS/Ck9qn h2NKV9eX5dgD7ZtiQS4jc0CgTO12uZk4r5//lV2PJmXisT0dRDqCDxKLufZ/qDt1MnQ8 XelvReL7giS+vKns8o1Fy6hYByJhGx8xqO4TWcDmNTencW9ke+kKBt//ehA5uPRp3pF7 IvoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKDbHgqpkifX4ccI3kL4owcduWV0Trl+PNbU2/ya0YiLGs4/3ji n89fbfZaun8j4+mdu6P2Skk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e0lFjIbT1aELrc3SgtvEIZEeYdmPRwmtFNZSwUn261f2RTop606ilQUfJ1frwbKY1PhqBQOQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e943:: with SMTP id q3-v6mr1744236pgj.42.1541628331063; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:b15b:4aa4:12a2:aad6? ([2001:67c:1232:144:b15b:4aa4:12a2:aad6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i14-v6sm1726835pfo.121.2018.11.07.14.05.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 14:05:30 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:05:26 +0700 Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Ole Troan , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> To: Fred Templin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:05:34 -0000 > On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:27 AM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional = messages > in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the protocol itself. >=20 > It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a = single > unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives within the > RS/RA messages. >=20 > Thanks - Fred Well, all autoconfguration *is* done using one message - the RA. But = prefixes are not auto-configured. RFC 7695, to give a network the = ability to distribute /64s within a prefix allocated to it, makes sense = (although it is limited to /64s, based on the idea that it is = distributing minimal prefixes to LANs) make sense to me. But = autoconfiguration using a SLAAC-like algorithm doesn't make sense in my = mind, because autoconfiguration of a prefix means more than "pick a = number out of the air". = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war,=20 Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.=20 Sun Tzu From nobody Wed Nov 7 14:51:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC79A129C6A; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:50:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5y6KOp2W2J3; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BA6E1294D7; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wA7Mot87037285; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:50:56 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.213]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wA7Mosmg037273 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:50:54 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eed5::8988:eed5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:50:53 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:50:53 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fred Baker CC: Alexandre Petrescu , Ole Troan , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUdjVRDj+CiE9WP0u+rCSufpeHWKVEdX8AgAAXuICAAGPMgP//rIbggADIIgD//4U94A== Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:50:53 +0000 Message-ID: <6eb02f36523647878de06800bea8d81b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: F6E206894990705E99EFE69E6C0232D3A24768C42C4557D138637AEA888AD7EA2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:50:59 -0000 Fred, > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2018 2:05 PM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Alexandre Petrescu ; Ole Troan ; 6man WG ; v6ops > list > Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:27 AM, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > > The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional message= s > > in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the protocol itself. > > > > It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a sin= gle > > unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives within the > > RS/RA messages. > > > > Thanks - Fred >=20 > Well, all autoconfguration *is* done using one message - the RA. But pref= ixes are not auto-configured. RFC 7695, to give a network > the ability to distribute /64s within a prefix allocated to it, makes sen= se (although it is limited to /64s, based on the idea that it is > distributing minimal prefixes to LANs) make sense to me. But autoconfigur= ation using a SLAAC-like algorithm doesn't make sense in > my mind, because autoconfiguration of a prefix means more than "pick a nu= mber out of the air". Pardon if my terminology slipped. Yes, prefixes are *delegated* (not autoco= nfigured) but the idea is to leverage the RS/RA exchange to also facilitate prefix de= legation by embedding DHCPv6 protocol messages within the RS/RA. Fred >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, > Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. > Sun Tzu From nobody Wed Nov 7 15:40:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C641288BD for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:39:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.388 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVaEiSOJSS6B for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E32CC129C6A for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id wA7Nb2sp040069; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:39:51 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2nm8ndammp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 18:39:51 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id wA7NdoOk031196; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:39:51 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [135.47.91.179]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id wA7NdgeL031096; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:39:42 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 4E5B7400037A; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.151]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 3B4B34000363; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.253]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.151]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:39:42 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ'" , "'Clark Gaylord'" , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Thread-Index: AQHUdcTGZX7eL89qAkapZNKa5vvMY6VC/vsA//+2STqAAFxagIAACeCAgABCNQCAAHHZAIABKGWA Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:39:40 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.201.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120BGAALPA1MSGUSRBF_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-07_19:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=988 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811070207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 23:40:00 -0000 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([2001:67c:1232:144:b15b:4aa4:12a2:aad6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c23-v6sm1885381pfn.95.2018.11.07.16.14.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 16:14:19 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <09223654-86EF-4E90-A81D-9BA0E0E8D774@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_90FE6331-9BF9-46DB-92F0-203C1CAB2D5B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:14:15 +0700 In-Reply-To: <6eb02f36523647878de06800bea8d81b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Ole Troan , 6man WG , v6ops list To: Fred Templin References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> <6eb02f36523647878de06800bea8d81b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:14:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_90FE6331-9BF9-46DB-92F0-203C1CAB2D5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For clarity, my participation in this thread is sans hats. I usually say = that, and neglected doing so. > On Nov 8, 2018, at 5:50 AM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > but the idea is to leverage the RS/RA exchange to also facilitate = prefix delegation by > embedding DHCPv6 protocol messages within the RS/RA. And that makes some sense. I have been an advocate for a while of a = mechanism that would allow any DHCP configuration element to exist in an = RA for the purposes of stateless configuration without having to = reinvent the information element, which for a set of things is sensible. The problem with it in this case is that it presumes that the RA is sent = to an individual station and represents an allocation that the station = needs and is expecting. In other words, if it is delegating a prefix to = a given station, it can't be multicast; it has to be a unicast response = to an RS. RA's are in fact often multicast. In this case, the fact that = it is embedded in the RA is pretty much pointless; it is in fact a DHCP = exchange with a different container, and we have used a stateless = configuration mechanism statefully. We have taken an existing, working, = mechanism and made it more complex because a certain implementor has an = issue with DHCP that other implementors don't seem to have. That seems like a strange solution. If you want to do something = stateful, don't use a stateless protocol. If a unicast exchange is = called for (the reason for the RS is that a new station on the network = needs configuration now as opposed to "up to seven minutes from now", = and can trigger the same message it would get periodically, but upon = request). If you want to execute the function of a protocol to obtain a = stateful delegation, don't embed the protocol in another protocol that = is stateless. = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an = interesting comment on projected traffic volume... --Apple-Mail=_90FE6331-9BF9-46DB-92F0-203C1CAB2D5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvjf9cACgkQEhdRnd2G P+ATHA//U8lL/Z412y6kHrKlg7MZWtScrETYnhop30nsTbk00nrq9J1WkK74ug+K P7lldIz9uRPmI3fgP0nKT1cImuhUULkIAEiYIbyQ1MpBXalWbj+yE+fXU4IplJHX PzY6Fkm/fQNaKmOwZVNgH0/1hzYSoFS0mDu3MSwic/hDx53bAaMoijlC71NEiIaU u9/srxUVg2H4rjhc8Jldi+7cvQQhBtg80IPyJz1TH5bZMKfZiuKUXbdgijvvKLp5 xKMiPIq10XYB9l3+7fbxX5IxuSxMBak7WAJikF16Kj0CUqNlssLTPqaAKldldMK/ oy8gLJNMTnbKjLw6LUD8y5963Y5ykUIJkipUf+gzUkXvOjS6vuD7l2t384bWBpt1 R5l9nest22wG/mmBqKFfix/WbmJSd3B3v/NyxgwUGbFeUl3wxKO6zcql0oPoS00g mqlWJMDC/JJbsJQ0wUmMU7sM0SQdEgF16/mNoQMQ8nmrY2nZKP4UcYUngldr+/D+ J6xU8aFmifx7IZMkqEZdZnYZcAp/oGlzarWryxmjEo1kBWqzZZEP1ZALa/39rpee 6wh7EBskdKbNK4ZZRFM6sIEiVY9BnII6u03uSB8uD+zgrvVAAmGjK9uGPIBIQh62 x3lUX3zZNCIjTTyhr/Qm+20HIJUPHdIPQzfiQadQIEZktFQqk/4= =FGQI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_90FE6331-9BF9-46DB-92F0-203C1CAB2D5B-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 16:19:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C05A1252B7 for ; 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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> <6eb02f36523647878de06800bea8d81b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <09223654-86EF-4E90-A81D-9BA0E0E8D774@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09223654-86EF-4E90-A81D-9BA0E0E8D774@gmail.com> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:18:32 +0700 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , ipv6@ietf.org, IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f582b9057a1c2ec3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:19:13 -0000 --000000000000f582b9057a1c2ec3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Another thing to bear in mind is that DHCPv6 RA is normally a four-packet exchange, and the reason for this is to make sure the client actually got the prefix. Take away the four packet exchange, as you must do with RA/RS, and you may find that it's easier to run the server out of prefixes, either accidentally or on purpose. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:15 AM Fred Baker wrote: > For clarity, my participation in this thread is sans hats. I usually say > that, and neglected doing so. > > > On Nov 8, 2018, at 5:50 AM, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > > > but the idea is to leverage the RS/RA exchange to also facilitate prefix > delegation by > > embedding DHCPv6 protocol messages within the RS/RA. > > And that makes some sense. I have been an advocate for a while of a > mechanism that would allow any DHCP configuration element to exist in an RA > for the purposes of stateless configuration without having to reinvent the > information element, which for a set of things is sensible. > > The problem with it in this case is that it presumes that the RA is sent > to an individual station and represents an allocation that the station > needs and is expecting. In other words, if it is delegating a prefix to a > given station, it can't be multicast; it has to be a unicast response to an > RS. RA's are in fact often multicast. In this case, the fact that it is > embedded in the RA is pretty much pointless; it is in fact a DHCP exchange > with a different container, and we have used a stateless configuration > mechanism statefully. We have taken an existing, working, mechanism and > made it more complex because a certain implementor has an issue with DHCP > that other implementors don't seem to have. > > That seems like a strange solution. If you want to do something stateful, > don't use a stateless protocol. If a unicast exchange is called for (the > reason for the RS is that a new station on the network needs configuration > now as opposed to "up to seven minutes from now", and can trigger the same > message it would get periodically, but upon request). If you want to > execute the function of a protocol to obtain a stateful delegation, don't > embed the protocol in another protocol that is stateless. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an > interesting comment on projected traffic volume... > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000f582b9057a1c2ec3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another thing to bear in mind is that DHCPv6 RA is normall= y a four-packet exchange, and the reason for this is to make sure the clien= t actually got the prefix.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Take away the four packet exchange, = as you must do with RA/RS, and you may find that it's easier to run the= server out of prefixes, either accidentally or on purpose.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:15 AM Fred B= aker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.c= om> wrote:
For clarity, my p= articipation in this thread is sans hats. I usually say that, and neglected= doing so.

> On Nov 8, 2018, at 5:50 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= > wrote:
>
> but the idea is to leverage the RS/RA exchange to also facilitate pref= ix delegation by
> embedding DHCPv6 protocol messages within the RS/RA.

And that makes some sense. I have been an advocate for a while of a mechani= sm that would allow any DHCP configuration element to exist in an RA for th= e purposes of stateless configuration without having to reinvent the inform= ation element, which for a set of things is sensible.

The problem with it in this case is that it presumes that the RA is sent to= an individual station and represents an allocation that the station needs = and is expecting. In other words, if it is delegating a prefix to a given s= tation, it can't be multicast; it has to be a unicast response to an RS= . RA's are in fact often multicast. In this case, the fact that it is e= mbedded in the RA is pretty much pointless; it is in fact a DHCP exchange w= ith a different container, and we have used a stateless configuration mecha= nism statefully. We have taken an existing, working, mechanism and made it = more complex because a certain implementor has an issue with DHCP that othe= r implementors don't seem to have.

That seems like a strange solution. If you want to do something stateful, d= on't use a stateless protocol. If a unicast exchange is called for (the= reason for the RS is that a new station on the network needs configuration= now as opposed to "up to seven minutes from now", and can trigge= r the same message it would get periodically, but upon request). If you wan= t to execute the function of a protocol to obtain a stateful delegation, do= n't embed the protocol in another protocol that is stateless.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

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--000000000000f582b9057a1c2ec3-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 18:50:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E65130E85 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.007 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.007 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id itP1B-Ie5kSy for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EA62130E50 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:50:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541645425; x=1542250225; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=I5/V5Q4QCcqghCe5FZ6kMQ 3O91ybieS3qpkMAbEWs2c=; b=GwF0YEq3vGoYKsrT33ZRlSdRPVz/79SY137ZvX ANXjEMC8x8iBjJeM2ZCk4y2bBEaakieRj5zdC/faOIL+jjRtkljFphZr+bc0XU4w M/OMANhSLdn/x5kpBj6p753L6Zkc9dPpmv8ncZkohrNmsc7XAjXLZwjOOFvKZ/k+ 5vxE8= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:50:25 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:50:25 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005950783.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:50:24 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:50:24 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:50:15 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "STARK, BARBARA H" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3624515419_855478125" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 02:50:36 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3624515419_855478125 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Barbara, =20 If an ISP allows persistent prefixes depending on customer preference, the = ISP don=E2=80=99t know if actually it is persistent or not. =20 This is like =E2=80=9Cbelieving=E2=80=9D that people don=E2=80=99t change t= he MAC address. You don=E2=80=99t know, so you can=E2=80=99t be sure. =20 Technology has to be made to be useful and as simple as possible. =20 Using =E2=80=9Cextreme=E2=80=9D privacy considerations for complicating the= technology is a bad balance compared with laws that already disallow those= data aggregators to collect the data. For example, in EU IP addresses are = considered personal data, which means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t c= ollect them. This allows to use persistent prefixes and if somebody is doin= g something wrong, is not =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the technology simplifi= cation (so you can have you own DNS services at home and no need for comple= x/expensive/slower dynamic DNS things), but =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the l= aw, with fines up to 20 million euros. =20 I wish it is not only fines, but jail for any repeated or massive action ag= ainst GDPR , but this is what we have now. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 6:40 Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: RE: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 In-line with =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D. Barbara =20 I think basing privacy in the prefix is persistent or not is a broken conce= pt. The IP address is widely used by data aggregators when combining mult= iple data sets. Apparently, data aggregators don=E2=80=99t think using IP a= ddress to violate people=E2=80=99s privacy is a broken concept. =20 It is one of the parameters for privacy, but there are better and more reli= able ways to track users if someone want to do that, because they can=E2=80= =99t be sure the prefix is persistent =E2=80=A6 Persistence of the prefix varies per ISP, and data aggregators know w= hich ISPs change users addresses and how frequently. But stating that varyi= ng the IP address makes it less useful to data aggregators as part of makin= g a case for not varying the IP address is a bit strange to me. Your propos= al is effectively that we should make the IP address more useful to data ag= gregators for dataset combination by making it persistent. =20 Just take a look to: http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ or https://panopticlick.eff.org =20 I feel that it is much more important to be able to define services by name= s, with stable addresses that anything else. I disagree.=20 =20 Of course, if the user prefers not to have a stable prefix, I=E2=80=99ve se= en ISPs that in the =E2=80=9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D allow the user to choos= e that option. Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3624515419_855478125 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Barbara,

 

If an ISP allows persistent prefixes depending on customer preferen= ce, the ISP don=E2=80=99t know if actually it is persistent or not.

 

This is like =E2=80=9Cbelievi= ng=E2=80=9D that people don=E2=80=99t change the MAC address. You don=E2=80= =99t know, so you can=E2=80=99t be sure.

 =

Technology has to be made to be useful and as simple as = possible.

 

Using =E2=80= =9Cextreme=E2=80=9D privacy considerations for complicating the technology = is a bad balance compared with laws that already disallow those data aggreg= ators to collect the data. For example, in EU IP addresses are considered p= ersonal data, which means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect them.= This allows to use persistent prefixes and if somebody is doing something = wrong, is not =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the technology simplification (so y= ou can have you own DNS services at home and no need for complex/expensive/= slower dynamic DNS things), but =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the law, with fin= es up to 20 million euros.

 <= /p>

I wish it is not only fines, but jail for any repeated or massive acti= on against GDPR , but this is what we have now.

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>
Regards,

Jordi

 

<= o:p> 

 

De: = "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
Fecha: jueves= , 8 de noviembre de 2018, 6:40
Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' <j= ordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <= v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: RE: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between = networks

 

In-line with =E2=80=9C<bhs>=E2=80=9D.

Barbara

 

I think basing privacy i= n the prefix is persistent or not is a broken concept.

<bhs> The IP address is w= idely used by data aggregators when combining multiple data sets. Apparentl= y, data aggregators don=E2=80=99t think using IP address to violate people=E2=80=99s privacy is a broken concept.

 

It is one of the parameters for p= rivacy, but there are better and more reliable ways to track users if someo= ne want to do that, because they can=E2=80=99t be sure the prefix is persis= tent =E2=80=A6

<bhs> Persistence of the prefix varies per ISP, and data aggregat= ors know which ISPs change users addresses and how frequently. But stating = that varying the IP address makes it less useful to data aggregators as par= t of making a case for not varying the IP address is a bit strange to me. Y= our proposal is effectively that we should make the IP address more useful = to data aggregators for dataset combination by making it persistent.

 =

Just take a look to:<= o:p>

http://webkay.robinlinus.com/

or

https://panopticlick.eff.org

 =

I feel that it is muc= h more important to be able to define services by names, with stable addres= ses that anything else.

<bhs> I disagree.

 

Of course, if the user prefers not to have a stable= prefix, I=E2=80=99ve seen ISPs that in the =E2=80=9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D= allow the user to choose that option.


Regards,

Jordi


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3624515419_855478125-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 18:59:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1B9130ED8 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:59:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64r-sxJ5lUbJ for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from omr1.cc.vt.edu (omr1.cc.ipv6.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8300:0:c6:2117:b0e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A6E7130EB2 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mr5.cc.vt.edu (mr5.cc.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8400:0:72:232:758b]) by omr1.cc.vt.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wA82xPfg020782 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:59:25 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f71.google.com (mail-ed1-f71.google.com [209.85.208.71]) by mr5.cc.vt.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id wA82xKKl018786 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:59:25 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f71.google.com with SMTP id n18-v6so2954963edt.3 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 18:59:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bdk2fM7BJqNuvMiJZrmeP+VwVrqu/VeW9XnbGBdwJtw=; b=WahnJc1Z4rOR6gtPZKl80UhzDnfVYSwrBO7hmEHNJKli4K4p2XfzLvMAtWIqtEcv/C cYZLFs19r5wPCb/dfCuqVBfkbVGHhJvPnU2UiymWBBYsb1TRnmNrp0mLafJMuJQQmEaP XCOe4OPU7CagQ7hnFVRcehm2CYaoSaiGCBVcegI1XLvdLFQzb6I6pk1oENy+gk62MoWx hEHgi5l7id7SYeF/v6ox17n/qCNmw5RXWMT1+2TGSLCVRZw8fmi+Ju127MmS3VVbd4nG hlH4WMOjMOQ6rIg/3Hpw4ZdSEfYHV72r6r4KI8ElX8KsIMJmBndj6kNCO+4RgXu1RVr3 61kA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKveglTiOgVTxB7CpyJhnNc02cnWIyReaBgjYfj5Mr9TwcTd3zr gBj6vpTNhZD21eUxAL8ZleA+SNQtQoC0dWm2SeGGJ3E4ILleZDBoHhLIk1uaTxz7/Y9JJE+klrS ggxajtjU7f9CAmt8WHsTdINlrhpSSKcVd X-Received: by 2002:a50:eb42:: with SMTP id z2-v6mr2098984edp.126.1541645959600; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 18:59:19 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ewwOH2G0de7liFll0TRaeHFK/EYZiq1LQ9V54f3RTJ+xhzgPcadbPqRnTJjh5nsGPGFwuV98GNNowYgrs7S8c= X-Received: by 2002:a50:eb42:: with SMTP id z2-v6mr2098961edp.126.1541645959127; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 18:59:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clark Gaylord Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:59:07 -0500 Message-ID: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c37dd9057a1e6b6d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 02:59:34 -0000 --000000000000c37dd9057a1e6b6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 7, 2018, 21:51 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Using =E2=80=9Cextreme=E2=80=9D privacy considerations for complicating the= technology is a > bad balance compared with laws that already disallow those data aggregato= rs > to collect the data. For example, in EU IP addresses are considered > personal data, which means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect th= em > Sigh. "An address is an accident of geography=E2=80=9D --me :-) --ckg > -- -- Clark Gaylord cgaylord@vt.edu ... Autocorrect may have improved this message ... --000000000000c37dd9057a1e6b6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018, 21= :51 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=


Using =E2=80=9Cextreme= =E2=80=9D privacy considerations for complicating the technology is a bad b= alance compared with laws that already disallow those data aggregators to c= ollect the data. For example, in EU IP addresses are considered personal da= ta, which means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect them

=

Sigh.=C2=A0
"An address is an accident of geography=E2=80=9D --me

:-)

--ckg
--

--
Clark Gaylord
cgaylord@vt.edu
... Autocorrect may have improved this message ...

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([2001:67c:370:128:75f8:a7f5:37f6:a27d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j18-v6sm5936347wmf.39.2018.11.07.19.43.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:43:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F77EAFC3-A012-4B58-B357-17EF0570B304"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:42:56 +0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:43:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F77EAFC3-A012-4B58-B357-17EF0570B304 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jordi, > For example, in EU IP addresses are considered personal data, which = means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect them. Does this apply to Street addresses too? If someone lives in the EU, = can they move and keep the same street address? Bob --Apple-Mail=_F77EAFC3-A012-4B58-B357-17EF0570B304 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlvjsMAACgkQrut0EXfn u6iiIwgAm0frZD+zFz635QLuzscJud4OGCNZx/wlLt7nlv07CZMIyciUYtTs13Nc tXsc1bRmtxJlTMCBwBjcYZZvFuQ0pswvMKId1K55myse+wpBGSuyN/vSu2aorazg kYTkoso/f31nCf2z/Z4Wvw9LmD9dpKEBTumusJ2VynZq+RI6vcHFvrGx+v8/2BgH +WjAOOo+WVxMOyuqQaHi1rm+GEOVCbP+OFmaqD8ub5I3TCcVAYIntdXNEI6DgbOK Flvbl6D+NF2b98ARKiTQY1mmhOhjoId5GMe5NwyY64eNZOHZsHsU9Y2WIREHUHBD ZBeVb1fPOv3WCpM0f3GDvTCgzel1rw== =n53i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F77EAFC3-A012-4B58-B357-17EF0570B304-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:47:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4ACD130EC6 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:47:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.007 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.007 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f04UxBSgR3YD for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5D50130E62 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:47:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541648840; x=1542253640; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=BhSTQaiH8ZxCyZuhrLgrRl 8yT5AqbgnjKs7UVs3w0Z0=; b=bS72aLtZ32wd/DvJqOMYvWmjpjM8wFa1aInDqL dG/hU3+ZUa6QH75edjprZx+iHJG/v9TjBP7DgzCABhTNaBHz501+0wTDZBpJFyOo ABREiN7ZgNmERtizaUYss9v2obt19ms3rx3P4TP97byjVpgHcRYoQRe5yf7ely0m DnDNM= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:47:20 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:47:18 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951179.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:47:18 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:47:18 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:47:08 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "STARK, BARBARA H" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21ADF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21ADF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3624518834_8996450" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:47:34 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3624518834_8996450 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable GDPR affects anyone willing to do business with EU citizens or residents. =20 Not that I=E2=80=99ve any relation with this site or the blog author, just = google for it: =20 https://blog.returnpath.com/gdpr-impact-for-non-eu-companies/ Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 10:39 Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: RE: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 As an example, here is how one data aggregator/broker describes how useful = it is for them when IP addresses don=E2=80=99t change. https://www.vicimediainc.com/often-ip-addresses-change/ =20 You may have GDPR. Most of the world does not. I do not. If you want to cre= ate a recommendation that is specific to EU ISPs, go for it (assuming they = all agree). But please make it very, very clear that it *only* applies to E= U ISPs. I=E2=80=99m also still waiting to see just how successful GDPR will= be in discouraging websites in non-EU countries from collecting any and al= l data from people behind European IP addresses. And foreign governments (w= hich may be wanting to harm EU countries and citizens) are completely free = to track EU citizens when they can lure those citizens to their =E2=80=9Csp= onsored=E2=80=9D websites. =20 I will continue to recommend IP address assignments *not* be static. Barbara =20 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =20 Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2018 9:50 PM To: STARK, BARBARA H Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 Hi Barbara, =20 If an ISP allows persistent prefixes depending on customer preference, the = ISP don=E2=80=99t know if actually it is persistent or not. =20 This is like =E2=80=9Cbelieving=E2=80=9D that people don=E2=80=99t change t= he MAC address. You don=E2=80=99t know, so you can=E2=80=99t be sure. =20 Technology has to be made to be useful and as simple as possible. =20 Using =E2=80=9Cextreme=E2=80=9D privacy considerations for complicating the= technology is a bad balance compared with laws that already disallow those= data aggregators to collect the data. For example, in EU IP addresses are = considered personal data, which means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t c= ollect them. This allows to use persistent prefixes and if somebody is doin= g something wrong, is not =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the technology simplifi= cation (so you can have you own DNS services at home and no need for comple= x/expensive/slower dynamic DNS things), but =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the l= aw, with fines up to 20 million euros. =20 I wish it is not only fines, but jail for any repeated or massive action ag= ainst GDPR , but this is what we have now. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 6:40 Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: RE: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 In-line with =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D. Barbara =20 I think basing privacy in the prefix is persistent or not is a broken conce= pt. The IP address is widely used by data aggregators when combining mult= iple data sets. Apparently, data aggregators don=E2=80=99t think using IP a= ddress to violate people=E2=80=99s privacy is a broken concept. =20 It is one of the parameters for privacy, but there are better and more reli= able ways to track users if someone want to do that, because they can=E2=80= =99t be sure the prefix is persistent =E2=80=A6 Persistence of the prefix varies per ISP, and data aggregators know w= hich ISPs change users addresses and how frequently. But stating that varyi= ng the IP address makes it less useful to data aggregators as part of makin= g a case for not varying the IP address is a bit strange to me. Your propos= al is effectively that we should make the IP address more useful to data ag= gregators for dataset combination by making it persistent. =20 Just take a look to: http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ or https://panopticlick.eff.org =20 I feel that it is much more important to be able to define services by name= s, with stable addresses that anything else. I disagree.=20 =20 Of course, if the user prefers not to have a stable prefix, I=E2=80=99ve se= en ISPs that in the =E2=80=9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D allow the user to choos= e that option. Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3624518834_8996450 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

GDPR affects anyone willing to do business with EU citizens o= r residents.

 

Not that = I=E2=80=99ve any relation with this site or the blog author, just google fo= r it:

 

https://blog.ret= urnpath.com/gdpr-impact-for-non-eu-companies/


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: &qu= ot;STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
Fecha: jueves, 8= de noviembre de 2018, 10:39
Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' <jor= di.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6= ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: RE: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between ne= tworks

 

As an example, here is how one data aggregator/broker descr= ibes how useful it is for them when IP addresses don=E2=80=99t change.=

https://www.vicimediai= nc.com/often-ip-addresses-change/

 

You may have GDPR. Most of the world does not. I do= not. If you want to create a recommendation that is specific to EU ISPs, g= o for it (assuming they all agree). But please make it very, very clear tha= t it *only* applies to EU ISPs. I=E2=80=99m also still waiting to se= e just how successful GDPR will be in discouraging websites in non-EU count= ries from collecting any and all data from people behind European IP addres= ses. And foreign governments (which may be wanting to harm EU countries and= citizens) are completely free to track EU citizens when they can lure thos= e citizens to their =E2=80=9Csponsored=E2=80=9D websites.

 

I will continue to recommend IP = address assignments *not* be static.

Barbara

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>From: JORDI PALET M= ARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Wednesday, Nove= mber 07, 2018 9:50 PM
To: STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com>=
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host mov= ing between networks

 

Hi Barbara,<= o:p>

 

If an ISP allows persistent prefixes depending on customer pr= eference, the ISP don=E2=80=99t know if actually it is persistent or not.

 <= /o:p>

This is like =E2= =80=9Cbelieving=E2=80=9D that people don=E2=80=99t change the MAC address. = You don=E2=80=99t know, so you can=E2=80=99t be sure.

 

Technology has to be made to be usef= ul and as simple as possible.

 

Using =E2=80=9Cextreme=E2=80=9D privacy considerations for c= omplicating the technology is a bad balance compared with laws that already= disallow those data aggregators to collect the data. For example, in EU IP= addresses are considered personal data, which means that data aggregators = can=E2=80=99t collect them. This allows to use persistent prefixes and if s= omebody is doing something wrong, is not =E2=80=9Cagainst=E2=80=9D the tech= nology simplification (so you can have you own DNS services at home and no = need for complex/expensive/slower dynamic DNS things), but =E2=80=9Cagainst= =E2=80=9D the law, with fines up to 20 million euros.

 

I wish it is not only fines, but jai= l for any repeated or massive action against GDPR , but this is what we hav= e now.


Regards,

Jordi

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> 

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'> 

De: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018,= 6:40
Para: 'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ' <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: "= v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: RE: [v6ops] = SLAAC host moving between networks

 

In-line with =E2=80=9C<bhs&g= t;=E2=80=9D.

Barbara

&= nbsp;

I think basing privacy in the prefix is persistent or not is a broken con= cept.

<b= hs> The IP address is widely used by data aggregators when combining mul= tiple data sets. Apparently, data aggregators don=E2=80=99t think using IP = address to violate people=E2=80=99s privacy is a broken concept.=

 

=

It is one of the paramete= rs for privacy, but there are better and more reliable ways to track users if someone want to do that, because they ca= n=E2=80=99t be sure the prefix is persistent =E2=80=A6

<bhs> Persistence of the = prefix varies per ISP, and data aggregators know which ISPs change users ad= dresses and how frequently. But stating that varying the IP address makes i= t less useful to data aggregators as part of making a case for not varying = the IP address is a bit strange to me. Your proposal is effectively that we= should make the IP address more useful to data aggregators for dataset com= bination by making it persistent.

 

Just take a look to:

http://webkay.robinlinus.com/

or

https://panopticlick.eff.org

 

I feel that it is much more important to be able to def= ine services by names, with stable addresses that anything else.=

<bhs> I disagre= e.

 <= o:p>

Of course, = if the user prefers not to have a stable prefix, I=E2=80=99ve seen ISPs tha= t in the =E2=80=9Ccontrol panel=E2=80=9D allow the user to choose that opti= on.


Regards,

Jordi


**********************************************
IPv4 is ove= r
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Compa= ny

This electronic message contains information which may be privile= ged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive us= e of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized di= sclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information,= even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and wi= ll be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents = of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strict= ly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to = the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<= /o:p>


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3624518834_8996450-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:49:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DB112958B for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83NwLTkcZJqp for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x133.google.com (mail-it1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87B7D1293FB for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x133.google.com with SMTP id m15so26171797itl.4 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:49:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OZAqtnljpyo0ktL5RQbCGr04uusO+/t0lrq6HlwiIL0=; b=bhQJT6KQ4YImU2z7Tkp7EO12Ju7yorLxGXo6YrcMO0O83L5Qc10C0ohF3DNrb5Z0v/ /v1nLVZbpy7EaEdTXFqLx0xM/nX9x3DF3fKlLc0vDrYEP1NpMplRoQpHF+DHJ6FGQxXi 2k//ayCRWRsXFcPaHwMxJvzlyP5Sp4X5DRYmf1MYT4TO/WO87t5v7URzWlaQZswaqLjb 7imQHztcMaGSFjPgwC+qReSG7Z1izTKOuuTILpytDpJcxAgxiccekxcdlw6KlirJD6LH 9lVyReXKQ13sszkpEd0WXigvkku2BXVhfKqQgDqJxenvUdjfDb4cxzX++Z9rzC1wP0zl 0rjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OZAqtnljpyo0ktL5RQbCGr04uusO+/t0lrq6HlwiIL0=; b=QwnNcNH+WNWV9Z+MLq4aaoc2ubRv1jrkMLkc/7XqDDCmmeUkJrXK2/Z5ArEv4LTZKj ExRmOAVWJqZWjBUKaMs1H/7mo6cQoz/HocMB7QKX8+qF6gplm+/wRhLSGUbGZpo5cgIQ S5KtigrrKnWsyFrHlY5tyhxee1rNuKe4rO3NJuUpRp0D5KzdYgnscEqdhKkOHXwqtv4j J3zvyuCy5fqhJiDxU1MybVhX3x3ZnJmhqvA6ILV4DiMLsWDTIbHn2aIjWYUfoRpJQtHy nR0ffy4YnrrYJ26k7N2AOYg/FWdmWo1STa+9whxy0I8GBeMRx1D4AD1qixO5LSFcEaxa 5x1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIe4BsBe3SHNYTQLIbn06NiTTJbaQVuFruvCMRh/GJbv7Ct8GeZ UtAkwk/V3tv/Tm/H8Rb2csPCw0kWy9a4mMB1ksI6DA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eJR3qL0YZPKJKGIgjATBpqmV0+sqlSbMeTZ/Cup5rhyv+wV2R7Np9MqxKIi1HNumpW7mLyA58NFrkDzlVIVSw= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5d11:: with SMTP id w17-v6mr2470093ita.89.1541648978549; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:49:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:49:26 +0700 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcac73057a1f1f85" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:49:41 -0000 --000000000000bcac73057a1f1f85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:40 AM Gert Doering wrote: > Like, no committees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of > negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today's > real world networks. > ... and always forces all traffic to go through a centralized point, increasing latency and potentially creating surveillance opportunities. --000000000000bcac73057a1f1f85 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 8,= 2018 at 2:40 AM Gert Doering <gert@sp= ace.net> wrote:
Like, no com= mittees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of
negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today's
real world networks.

... and always for= ces all traffic to go through a centralized point, increasing latency and p= otentially creating surveillance opportunities.
--000000000000bcac73057a1f1f85-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:50:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE32B1293FB for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:50:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgxp8Ei4OlDd for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5274C130E5C for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:50:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541649009; x=1542253809; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=KoFPyr62nw+wfoYEmdP4RdSAggG7Lty7VbSKd+peHc0=; b=rRLuZLyeVolnM VMsDE75cdfTCH9PwVL6tltLEBQkQLl6+zGjRpKw8uQOfPEPx+aeJ22b1XVFPwaE1 o0iuxzzaNn4FGDEsqpyHU2al6ozDHzNgtQfCmZNWH/y/gUsCWwqkAfpSg0Ry/hS1 qEMHP4N9QaF7nXR2drmxDijbXKNxmw= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:50:09 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:50:09 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951192.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:50:08 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:50:08 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:50:00 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Bob Hinden , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:50:21 -0000 Hi Bob, No that I know ! But I'm not asking either for a prefix to be persistent if you move to a ne= w house :-) Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Bob Hinden Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 10:43 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Jordi, =20 > For example, in EU IP addresses are considered personal data, which = means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect them. =20 Does this apply to Street addresses too? If someone lives in the EU, c= an they move and keep the same street address? =20 Bob =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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04:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.155]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 09FDF4000361; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.253]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.155]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:07:26 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ'" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Thread-Index: AQHUdcTGZX7eL89qAkapZNKa5vvMY6VC/vsA//+2STqAAFxagIAACeCAgABCNQCAAHHZAIABKGWAgACL5ID//7ClUIAAXz8A//+xrlA= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:07:26 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21B5C@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21ADF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.237.99] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21B5CGAALPA1MSGUSRBF_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-08_02:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811080033 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:07:40 -0000 --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF21B5CGAALPA1MSGUSRBF_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SeKAmW0gZG9uZSByZXNwb25kaW5nLiBJ4oCZdmUgbWFkZSBteSBwb3NpdGlvbiBjbGVhci4NCkJh cmJhcmENCg0KR0RQUiBhZmZlY3RzIGFueW9uZSB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIGRvIGJ1c2luZXNzIHdpdGgg RVUgY2l0aXplbnMgb3IgcmVzaWRlbnRzLg0KDQpOb3QgdGhhdCBJ4oCZdmUgYW55IHJlbGF0aW9u IHdpdGggdGhpcyBzaXRlIG9yIHRoZSBibG9nIGF1dGhvciwganVzdCBnb29nbGUgZm9yIGl0Og0K DQpodHRwczovL2Jsb2cucmV0dXJucGF0aC5jb20vZ2Rwci1pbXBhY3QtZm9yLW5vbi1ldS1jb21w YW5pZXMvPGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9vZnBvaW50LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1odHRwcy0z 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dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OOkgSYTWDfrI for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 731B4130DFF for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:48:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541652518; x=1542257318; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=zJuxGnuAk64uO++gL3lOhzvcT1JHVrM1/1Zmpy9dtFE=; b=lwMJQ+dXsVWOI 00i91rJfURTJc1tdduZWmtlbVnzlU5Rrvl/3YsCRxcnpA/tlZNVSRxYHEjpLKJIx wAFI5EU6UqUuJcoUkCDq6oavaiITGc4eHBz7mX08KBMKH9dUI5OcqioruRwKgMQm MN/dnphmfbHnUh4Mz9dkQQqaab7Z1A= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 05:48:38 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 05:48:38 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951327.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 05:48:37 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 05:48:37 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:48:29 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Bob Hinden CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:48:44 -0000 I think this example may be more clarifying. Laws protect me against people collecting (without my previous and explicit= consent), my postal/street address and of course, sending postal mail to m= e (advertising, etc.). This was already possible before GDPR, but now is cl= earer and the fines are much higher. Do we think it will be interesting, instead of having a law like that, to a= llow people to not have the street name in the street and the street number= , etc. ? Obviously not, as even the people you want to visit you, will not be able t= o do so. Bringing privacy to that extreme is making technology complex and disallowi= ng innovation. Is like forbidding knives because you can kill someone. What is forbidden is to collect personal data, to use it without consent, t= o collect postal addresses, to kill someone, but the tools are there for ot= her reasons, and are needed. We need to consider privacy in protocols, definitively, I'm 100% for privac= y, but not at the cost of disallowing simple services. Laws need to take ca= re of people using protocols for privacy violation. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 10:50 Para: Bob Hinden , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi Bob, =20 No that I know ! =20 But I'm not asking either for a prefix to be persistent if you move to = a new house :-) =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Bob Hinden Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 10:43 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 Jordi, =20 > For example, in EU IP addresses are considered personal data, wh= ich means that data aggregators can=E2=80=99t collect them. =20 Does this apply to Street addresses too? If someone lives in the E= U, can they move and keep the same street address? =20 Bob =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company =20 This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or= confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of t= he individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosu= re, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even = if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be = considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be awa= re that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thi= s information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly pro= hibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the or= iginal sender to inform about this communication and delete it. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Wed Nov 7 22:31:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB0C130E1A for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PJ0BpxlQha5s for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D45F2130DE2 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) (Smail #157) id m1gKdqD-0000GnC; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:30:57 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bCE2691D2@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:48:29 +0700 ." Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:30:56 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 06:31:03 -0000 > Do we think it will be interesting, instead of having a law like > that, to allow people to not have the street name in the street > and the street number, etc. ? > > Obviously not, as even the people you want to visit you, will not > be able to do so. > > Bringing privacy to that extreme is making technology complex and > disallowing innovation. Personally, I prefer stable prefixes, but I don't think it is such a great idea to hardcode stable prefixes if it is relatively easy to support changing prefixes. There can always be an operational need to change a prefix, and yes you can first announce the old prefix with a preference of 0, before announcing to new one, but likely many operators will forget to do that. It seems to me that it is just a small change in address selection, i.e. when comparing two prefixes and one is currently announced by a router and the other isn't, then pick the one that is announced. From nobody Wed Nov 7 22:55:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D005C130E5C for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:55:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDurnuRc_5mC for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from imap.narrans.de (michelangelo.narrans.de [45.77.55.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77FDA130DEF for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (imap.narrans.de [local]) by imap.narrans.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id ef1b3898; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:55:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:55:13 +0100 From: Florian Obser To: Philip Homburg Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108065512.rklpcng5x6vuw3re@imap.narrans.de> References: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 06:55:19 -0000 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 07:30:56AM +0100, Philip Homburg wrote: > It seems to me that it is just a small change in address selection, i.e. when > comparing two prefixes and one is currently announced by a router and the > other isn't, then pick the one that is announced. It's already in there, it's just optional: RFC 6724 Section 5: Rule 5.5: Prefer addresses in a prefix advertised by the next-hop. If SA or SA's prefix is assigned by the selected next-hop that will be used to send to D and SB or SB's prefix is assigned by a different next-hop, then prefer SA. Similarly, if SB or SB's prefix is assigned by the next-hop that will be used to send to D and SA or SA's prefix is assigned by a different next-hop, then prefer SB. Discussion: An IPv6 implementation is not required to remember which next-hops advertised which prefixes. The conceptual models of IPv6 hosts in Section 5 of [RFC4861] and Section 3 of [RFC4191] have no such requirement. Hence, Rule 5.5 is only applicable to implementations that track this information. Combine this with Neighbor Unreachability Detection (RFC 4861 Section 7.3). My kernel is not tracking from which nexthop prefixes got advertised, it doesn't even process RAs. But I think I'll implement that, too, in addition to RFC 6059. -- I'm not entirely sure you are real. From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:33:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EF4130E73 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:33:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1pGqj19X00N for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20F61130F58 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:33:26 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F0E41C13 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:33:24 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6515E41135; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:33:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 5644920147; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:33:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:33:24 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: Gert Doering , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Message-ID: <20181108073324.GQ11393@Space.Net> References: <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qqB/OqyRSw5SfBe3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:33:29 -0000 --qqB/OqyRSw5SfBe3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 10:49:26AM +0700, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:40 AM Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > > Like, no committees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of > > negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today's > > real world networks. >=20 > ... and always forces all traffic to go through a centralized point, > increasing latency and potentially creating surveillance opportunities. This is purely a matter of local config. Anything between "just the tunnel transit (ifconfig) network" to "full default gateway redirection"=20 can be done. You might want to RTFM on "redirect gateway" and "route" options. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --qqB/OqyRSw5SfBe3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvj5sEACgkQ31bAZeTO f8UuqA/+NcyjVthEoTA+WR1hP9b1DvEHhC3ER0E0cOVHeg852yOFtcOpZrNpOgcN adKUNoNG78V1MwVYlnoR5nYGxPWC5cHJFjsbr+47szmkgg236AQYNvE32Z1feayj w2FMvSpjjKiNOI/EK8TCl/cmvvoADb27RHotyCAkSfhv0YR/lR/xgembW1w7inEj sPDGMXDTvLZzvVyh8jrtb86slKOUFTzwps8Jkp59Gh3RL/HcWc82e29qyNFGAdAt T/rhEDoJugdOMvIFXEefSqV4n71ZMLgPySXSZTQOkijzvPotIlOxjet4L0L0ypIN iDrUisZAam9aWu/8eltxsWmUR+1tSp+rutLE7fyp+LcPQ7Asprh/QMIoZtkR7VON weawSHb7bRR4/RwvZEDj+NkthEbEXiUT4IvJYJCPH1GFxzeiUkvF4SYFTfMXu27/ OpIZHEvBwYq6J8a8mAUYcUoTqD5nlI4QijgsGcPLzGLGfwVx+UEPB00npm6mHHw9 qFr9CS6bgPljB/4agrOdeL2ldgI5PaEAF/4GI0Qirk8BmOh12s/Voa/7dPN4TbqU Azy5sfj1RA/kmGjBAM4K1Y/0N3koMl/RZPL2lUZKc/TcIRV+S0/3yXq0iiXfY5Jw eATf/3hX9p0hSjnZVYXmD1nu0P2v1pamDNtQMw76h1ixngkmJWI= =Ip1u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qqB/OqyRSw5SfBe3-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:37:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB92130E90 for ; 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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 23:37:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> <20181108073324.GQ11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181108073324.GQ11393@Space.Net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:36:49 +0700 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b995a057a224d4d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:37:10 -0000 --0000000000000b995a057a224d4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:33 PM Gert Doering wrote: > > > Like, no committees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of > > > negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today's > > > real world networks. > > > > ... and always forces all traffic to go through a centralized point, > > increasing latency and potentially creating surveillance opportunities. > > This is purely a matter of local config. Anything between "just the > tunnel transit (ifconfig) network" to "full default gateway redirection" > can be done. > s/all traffic/all traffic you want to be mobile/ . If you use a VPN for mobility, then all traffic has to go through a VPN server. --0000000000000b995a057a224d4d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 8,= 2018 at 2:33 PM Gert Doering <gert@sp= ace.net> wrote:
> > Li= ke, no committees involved in the protocol design, no myriard of
> > negotiation options, useful debug output, and works across today&= #39;s
> > real world networks.
>
> ... and always forces all traffic to go through a centralized point, > increasing latency and potentially creating surveillance opportunities= .

This is purely a matter of local config.=C2=A0 Anything between "just = the
tunnel transit (ifconfig) network" to "full default gateway redir= ection"
can be done.

s/all traffic/all traffic = you want to be mobile/ . If you use a VPN for mobility, then all traffic ha= s to go through a VPN server.=C2=A0
--0000000000000b995a057a224d4d-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:44:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67CD128DFD for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nJSlOZnYnTCs for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 777E4124408 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC1941C13 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:44:20 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE1C41C10; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:44:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 4F03D201DB; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:44:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:44:20 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: Gert Doering , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Message-ID: <20181108074420.GR11393@Space.Net> References: <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <20181106145359.GT11393@Space.Net> <3dc8f1e9-6523-fa22-5619-5f899ffaa1b7@foobar.org> <20181107093407.GF11393@Space.Net> <9e0422bc-006c-231d-f158-2ed825484b44@foobar.org> <20181107194011.GM11393@Space.Net> <20181108073324.GQ11393@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yTNdjMuiTijRwhd1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:44:24 -0000 --yTNdjMuiTijRwhd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:36:49PM +0700, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > > > ... and always forces all traffic to go through a centralized point, > > > increasing latency and potentially creating surveillance opportunitie= s. >=20 > s/all traffic/all traffic you want to be mobile/ . If you use a VPN for > mobility, then all traffic has to go through a VPN server. Sure, but *that* reply should have gone to Nick's post, not to mine. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --yTNdjMuiTijRwhd1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvj6VEACgkQ31bAZeTO f8UGuQ/+Oa9QnUG65OV1Y7foF95xuWhKu9naTHDxOtmvWJZ/q9ZfklWCzC9oBjlC Wv4dUrR/evRd+OtTLDnPm/t2OVQgqaD8c0605pYNbrW9y4CNXt2Z9LmOumrwuzWI BUE9eHwinY++Fc/49hMHiOoXAsSzOhb6vxPfyrLksd1kLJYoTWVB2UeWcQ/bedNO WaHKDAxPBTZgM+KuVxfHRyQQiRjk7GIWdobcXV+tiPc1TMyAS/3gfQ5M05siolXv gwULg3QF+s6S+LBWT6/FxiEUn/cV+KK+VxLN4qvZlko0CQEp0fZIrG1uRp9331Qk 1uu8a3sZpCsS6QSWS4d9oPljBVnQYBwrhHXhXAQOe0xl3p96juNcmiPpw245W+p9 BJ9i2yXwQCD16MmggLfANzdKqsGJxW5VDufdnKgy9nIo//Fhjz0qByf6/RuqCDl7 IcAXEufjEINbT1VYWc/8azTgV1YuVcthDv+iHnJG0PO9z+k0abJ5AtepInR6BMBM CJt58YyojL9iDrqz+bGA9MjXaUE670NbYYQHzEgLLS+J0wRthMAHowp6B/frubgZ UW2wk/PLIiyWg3plGjIoDCb58rw1LjqICouopCbG0xqeWPQRM6PAFudFABJbGLVw 8uvRY70deHIyYFayXuNzT45EXTIRROEvyOjXwakFZCTED7aLqDE= =FuTj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yTNdjMuiTijRwhd1-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:45:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B32D128DFD for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:45:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-xM9MuGxmGT for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82702124408 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail03pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.211]) by atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wA87ixfr015333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:44:59 -0500 Received: (qmail 1119 invoked by uid 0); 8 Nov 2018 07:44:59 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 68.100.71.215 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.135?) (lee@asgard.org@68.100.71.215) by 0 with ESMTPA; 8 Nov 2018 07:44:59 -0000 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:44:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:45:03 -0000 On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... Sorry. You can't have prefix stability. You have to let network operators manage their networks. This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there's a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define. Lee From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:47:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678E1128DFD; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:47:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R0uY9Jt_N9PU; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37F1B124408; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-8923.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.137.35]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.184]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTjqS-1fu9uv1cWG-00QR3w; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:47:10 +0100 From: ianfarrer@gmx.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1398D3E5-312C-4734-860B-A837A6E00D21" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:47:04 +0700 Cc: V6 Ops List To: draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:mC1+4ePupaoMGgOm5q7VSSu27HP4o4Gsv08ueJIxs6X+gpzGux8 xuaJVZtSXsKhSKdBYOHv/JRXp59KJh55jPagnKU0ZViU//fQOD4MxoTxnI2UiR6EEd81kM6 x46V03Au9xybUc+5kfGbl2BDX3gH4Z7OY3JCRJBi20DxPSRxrX4KLe/X3JCem0jSFki6Ohf iCWTwPWA+8G3w0MZBADXw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:LjojPR3kKb8=:T78nOW6CnbRdfd+/5eU3X8 zabdd/oaZnKhzITVeRuL5Vy0rsHM7S+OSXg14hKL1lFtBHxgAfR+sMJovfXMM+0qixUC/g6LD fz7jnfaEDyEiB+5SPgpO41lDY2TOyw2ftDpactKUnyi4Ci5jdas6IBV1rxScE5f5RByl/k9s4 weN99B80uQGFnD870akXG7a53EDSUAqbZ6Wsuu55/+6WZgY+AWEw2zSJu1eOJOk8+ZOmnrBzm gKx9SXDNTDllWSVK8zC3Oyen69AaykL1oS+d8DBP7IRUcUVGKhsm65F+JXIqHFvf+O7LQ9fOI +bb4QwIhDBrFsztk2nTDjaln4Fj9n204ysuz4GngEnx9aRRs0/m3m8H/oDh8y5FIr1lc3w7oP rbYZwJ1ezGLLQf8kAZzfp+AZ4XDi3WY6Agx8/l/w1zH/eW1hKBIkoypoAve1B0uMuDlH+fOce G6rstIXcTd4VyZHfmPhwXZtm7ayTp67WMH0ybhagxIup5mKhij28v9HrGNE5eh7Et5qgu6OA6 EtO55mA6AxDtH0JdBQUsi+09RS6HxpACGNWEJY4tEw7ZV5CPYE/zmwMoAQ0HNYv3hIyzed86N eyNQoh6GyVHMXprWj5BreCL50UoHbhv2Bh5/ma23tzOEUdFqiS0s8i/X7/TlOVltuJgNKimR8 gr1mhc5t1/UVp4uwtajG7tmibADwbv88N2iAUEv4YVNapSmbj+DpZfBprgya9yUoRQhJt7y6U p80x+Ae5Z30I1VW/oIU4iJaaq7vtI3qpzRPTPgA0UqtkwfqYcSxQ4rrJ5AeBjij/iBiKnj3p1 t7JQ/fLwwk85JbkIBdmpjBWYIJ8CVo26a9SffXT8N5b3decr+fPVmojTOnU6uEH9lFVuVBZNO y58kaoMsBnyMUXvAjANci7ayqGWg6xiDe758xYQGzNjvuESRe6VExS5784wj7V Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Review of draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:47:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1398D3E5-312C-4734-860B-A837A6E00D21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Thanks for tackling this task. It=E2=80=99s really useful to document = the characteristics of the different mechanisms now there=E2=80=99s some = real experience of them. As promised in v6ops on Monday, here=E2=80=99s a review of the draft. Thanks, Ian 2.1 1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it=E2=80=99s = worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44. 2, Number of bytes overhead difference is certainly worth mentioning, = but in practice, I'm not sure it's that much of a differentiator. IME = 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot of network's MTUs (especially = for backhaul). If the network supports more than this then it's likely = to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 payload differences are unlikely = to pose a real problem. 3, DSLite doesn't do double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 only = does encapsulation of the privately addressed traffic into v6. The AFTR = uses the unique v6 B4 source address to track the flows and does = stateful NAT44. 4, "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation = can carry only TCP, UDP or ICMP over IP, when they are used with IPv4 = address sharing". There are other protocols that have layer-4 ports (e.g. SCTP). In = previous softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been = used, suggested re-word: "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation can = only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and ICMP when they = are used with IPv4 address sharing" 5, RFC8114 describes 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would be = worth mentioning this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to = perform encapsulation of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast = addresses (a subset of the RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that = this works with clients implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I = haven't tested it, but I would assume that a MAP-E BR could be = configured to do the same. 3.1.1 1, This states that XLAT without as dedicated translation /64 may have = triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 stateless in the CPE and NAT64 = stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the = worst case=E2=80=99 (although please see above regarding this), but the = triple NAT for 464XLAT is then described as less problematic due to the = distribution of state to CPEs. This seems inconsistent in evaluation. 3.1.2 See comment about DSLite above. 3.1.3 1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID address construction as MAP, but does not = use the 'general' MAP algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses. 2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single contiguous block of ports per client = (a-bits=3D0). WKPs are excluded (if required) through provisioning. MAP = (by default) uses a-bits=3D6, meaning that a client's total ports are = distributed across the total port space, and the WKPs are excluded from = allocation to any customer. One by product of this is that the netfilter = problem (only using the first port set for NAPT, noted in section 3.2) = is not experienced in a lw4o6 deployment. 3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to clients is = worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the deployment. When a = full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR functions as in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer performs A+P based routing for that = client. This means that non port-aware protocols can be routed. As this = can be configured on a per-client basis, if a customer reports a problem = with a particular application, they can be re-provisioned with a full = address. 3.2=20 1, Port sizes for clients for MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not = fixed. A CGN's port block allocation policy is certainly easier to = change, but this is not something that is done regularly: lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, so it is possible to change = the port block size for single or multiple clients and distribute this = to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets renewed. A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered in the domain) can be = redimensioned to change the client's port space. Again, deploy time = would be in line with DHCPv6 timers. 2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the Miy2010 = reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references section? 3, Do you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was = done, and specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection multiplexing = described in section 3.2 was used? 3.3 1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, as it=E2=80=99= s not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 servers with = IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It=E2=80=99s also worth describing whether making = the server externally accessible can be configured purely by the = customer, and which would need configuration by the operator in = centralised infrastructure. 2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, so it is possible to run = externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. Generally, these will = not be the WKP ports, unless those are being distributed for use by = clients. But customer can configure a server to be run on a higher port = (taken from the allocated block) then port translated (if needed) to = e.g. 443. 3, PCP would be worth including here. 3.4 Support and implementations 1, As NetFilter in the CPE is mentioned, It might be good to include = information about FOSS operator side implementations as well. Off the = top of my head: MAP-BR, lwAFTR, CGN - VPP/fd.io = https://gerrit.fd.io/r/#/admin/projects/ lwAFTR - https://github.com/Igalia/snabb DSLite AFTR https://www.isc.org/downloads/ 3.6 Load Sharing 1, This section needs to discuss more about state table synchronisation = between cluster members for stateful solutions as this is the major = bottleneck in scaling such solutions (and whether they can support = asymmetric v4 and v6 paths through the cluster). 2, Not sure if this is the right section, but there is also a = consideration about geographical resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. in = a 1+1 resilience model, the size of public IPv4 address pools need to be = scaled to allow for handling all customer traffic in event of a site = failure). Stateless solutions can be more efficient here as they can = have a common IPv4 range accessible via multiple geographical locations. 3.7 Logging 1, I think that a lot more needs to be said on this topic. It also needs = to be weighed against points made in other parts of the document. E.g., = in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic nature of port allocation in a CGN to allow for more flexible port allocations, but there is a = cost in logging overhead. Having first hand experience of a network that = does CGN per-flow logging to comply with local legal requirements, this = can be a major consideration. In the total cost of the solution, the CGN = infrastructure was a fraction of the logging and storage costs. In addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the document = should discuss: IPv6 and IPv4 address planning / topology independence --Apple-Mail=_1398D3E5-312C-4734-860B-A837A6E00D21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi,

Thanks for tackling this task. It=E2=80=99s really useful to = document the characteristics of the different mechanisms now there=E2=80=99= s some real experience of them.

As promised in v6ops on Monday, = here=E2=80=99s a review of the draft.

Thanks,
Ian

2.1
1, As it's mentioned = that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it=E2=80=99s worth mentioning = that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44.

2, Number of bytes overhead difference = is certainly worth mentioning, but in practice, I'm not sure it's that = much of a differentiator. IME 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot = of network's MTUs (especially for backhaul). If the network supports = more than this then it's likely to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 = payload differences are unlikely to pose a real problem.

3, DSLite doesn't do = double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 only does encapsulation of = the privately addressed traffic into v6. The AFTR uses the unique v6 B4 = source address to track the flows and does stateful NAT44.

4, "Another consequence = is that the solutions using double translation can carry only TCP, UDP = or ICMP over IP, when they are used with IPv4 address = sharing".

There = are other protocols that have layer-4 ports (e.g. SCTP). In previous = softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been used, = suggested re-word:

"Another consequence is that the solutions using double = translation can only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and = ICMP when  they are used with IPv4 address sharing"

5, RFC8114 describes = 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would be worth mentioning = this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to perform encapsulation = of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast addresses (a subset of the = RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that this works with clients = implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I haven't tested it, but I would = assume that a MAP-E BR could be configured to do the same.


3.1.1
1, This states that XLAT without = as dedicated translation /64 may have triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 = stateless in the CPE and NAT64 stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, = DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the worst case=E2=80=99 (although please see = above regarding this), but the triple NAT for 464XLAT is then described = as less problematic due to the distribution of state to CPEs. This seems = inconsistent in evaluation.


3.1.2
See comment about DSLite above.


3.1.3
1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID = address construction as MAP, but does not use the 'general' MAP = algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses.

2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single = contiguous block of ports per client (a-bits=3D0). WKPs are excluded (if = required) through provisioning. MAP (by default) uses a-bits=3D6, = meaning that a client's total ports are distributed across the total = port space, and the WKPs are excluded from allocation to any customer. = One by product of this is that the netfilter problem (only using the = first port set for NAPT, noted in section 3.2) is not experienced in a = lw4o6 deployment.

3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to = clients is worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the = deployment. When a full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR = functions as
in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer = performs A+P based routing for that client. This means that non = port-aware protocols can be routed. As this can be configured on a = per-client basis, if a customer reports a problem with a particular = application, they can be re-provisioned with a full address.


3.2 
1, Port sizes for clients for = MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not fixed. A CGN's port block = allocation policy is certainly easier to change, but this is not = something that is done regularly:
  • lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, so it is possible = to change the port block size for single or multiple clients and = distribute this to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets = renewed.
  • A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered = in the domain) can be redimensioned to change the client's port space. = Again, deploy time would be in line with DHCPv6 = timers.

2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the = Miy2010 reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references = section?

3, Do = you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was done, and = specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection multiplexing described = in section 3.2 was used?


3.3
1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, = as it=E2=80=99s not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 = servers with IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It=E2=80=99s also worth describing = whether making the server externally accessible can be configured purely = by the customer, and which would need configuration by the operator in = centralised infrastructure.

2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, so it is = possible to run externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. = Generally, these will not be the WKP ports, unless those are being = distributed for use by clients. But customer can configure a server to = be run on a higher port (taken from the allocated block) then port = translated (if needed) to e.g. 443.

3, PCP would be worth including = here.


3.4 Support and = implementations
1, As NetFilter in the CPE is = mentioned, It might be good to include information about FOSS operator = side implementations as well. Off the top of my head:

MAP-BR, lwAFTR, CGN - = VPP/fd.io  https://gerrit.fd.io/r/#/admin/projects/
lwAFTR - https://github.com/Igalia/snabb
DSLite= AFTR https://www.isc.org/downloads/


3.6 = Load Sharing
1, This section needs = to discuss more about state table synchronisation between cluster = members for stateful solutions as this is the major bottleneck in = scaling such solutions (and whether they can support asymmetric = v4
and v6 paths through the cluster).

2, Not sure if this is = the right section, but there is also a consideration about geographical = resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. in a 1+1 resilience model, the size = of public IPv4 address pools need to be scaled to allow for handling all = customer traffic in event of a site failure). Stateless solutions can be = more efficient here as they can have a common IPv4 range accessible via = multiple geographical locations.


3.7 = Logging
1, I think that a lot more needs to be said = on this topic. It also needs to be weighed against points made in other = parts of the document. E.g., in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic = nature of port allocation
in a CGN to allow for = more flexible port allocations, but there is a cost in logging overhead. = Having first hand experience of a network that does CGN per-flow logging = to comply with local legal requirements, this can be a major = consideration. In the total cost of the solution, the CGN infrastructure = was a fraction of the logging and storage costs.


In = addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the document = should discuss:
  • IPv6 = and IPv4 address planning / topology independence



= --Apple-Mail=_1398D3E5-312C-4734-860B-A837A6E00D21-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:53:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A43130E88 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:53:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rm8CA7v4rf-X for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 005F6124408 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:53:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541663621; x=1542268421; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=DNLbsoi0 PCx5CNe2nRuS2SqZE8o+LOr0BMSAwYa2zHE=; b=s5o6RBEmLk9EqN1a+KBjb97S f6NrgQN/vmI4dH2bMBwl/m5imFlzRtDjnIvRi0+y1v+TGeS5zWhzVmExoxEKQ1Zd 89R90zFzRZwJ+1vNWuyH8Xhw/dhFFPKuIv1ogYzhx3dQNdFM5MzUh0nFCyG624/P iAryCQMHwItvNaOg4WU= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:53:41 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:53:41 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951636.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:53:39 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:53:39 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:53:30 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Lee Howard , Message-ID: <1E1AC4D9-9756-4A69-9733-A2DF15182897@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:53:48 -0000 Note that I'm not advocating for persistent prefixes in different links, I'= m guessing that some people has understood that. What I meant is in the same link, same site, having the same prefix. We des= cribed this as "persistent" in RIPE-690. If you change access technology, ISP, or location or your site, is fine to = change the prefix, of course. There are several options to make that happen, including DHCP option 37, or= using an AAA/radius/whatever with the DHCPv6-PD, etc. So not asking someth= ing that is impossible or difficult to operate, many ISPs do. Others just keep doing dynamic because they are used to in IPv4. That's wha= t I mean with educating them. Not all them know that exist option 37, for e= xample. If we succeed to have a protocol that solves all the issues by means or ren= umbering, including changing DNS TTLs before the renumber happens, making s= ure that OS servers got it, etc., making sure operators implement that, etc= ., I will be happy to support that. But I think the balance among complexit= y vs gain in privacy vs operation cost vs etc., don't make sense at all. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Lee Howard Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 14:45 Para: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 th= ere is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can als= o offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... =20 Sorry. You can't have prefix stability. You have to let network=20 operators manage their networks. This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, an= d=20 it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. =20 =20 If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to wor= k=20 with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there'= s=20 a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that= =20 will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or= =20 defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to defin= e. =20 Lee =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:57:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25A2130DC2 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHCVhhfS_UVr for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0BC124408 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61E63AB609; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:57:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5745C160044; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:57:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2691416007C; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:57:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id brh-wOa7kOLX; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:57:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.30.42.67] (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BC73160044; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:57:17 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Andrews In-Reply-To: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:57:14 +1100 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <738E35F8-4F8B-4D80-ABE6-50DA152D5A73@isc.org> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> To: Lee Howard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:57:21 -0000 > On 8 Nov 2018, at 6:44 pm, Lee Howard wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 = there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They = can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent = ... >=20 > Sorry. You can't have prefix stability. You have to let network = operators manage their networks. This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and = it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. Breaking network connections every day just because you can is not = =E2=80=9Cmanaging a network=E2=80=9D. Its being actively hostile to = your clients. If a client wants to have different prefixes every day = they can trigger that using PD as it currently stands. > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to = work with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that = there's a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet = technologies that will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of = commonalities or defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that = we need to define. >=20 > Lee >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --=20 Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:02:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31D0124408 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:02:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YvlEvHR6VfVR for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A4D1294D0 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:02:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C961D41C13 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:02:11 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB52141135; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:02:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id ACEED202D3; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:02:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:02:11 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lee Howard Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:02:18 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there's > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define. I'm in. I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix). Why? Because software needs to learn how to cope with changing prefixes, and if the "change!" event happens only once a year, software will be perpetually broken in that regard. In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem today. What does a home network user do? - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short- lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart" decides to code client IP address into a session cookie) - synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using link-local and mDNS already today) - print -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right) - backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage - ... One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are proper "home users". So when people here complain about "but my SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH session know where the home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp. And you know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use screen/tmux + mosh... Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:20:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7861130DD9 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lzu18JDoDq8c for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 727F81294D0 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:20:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541665200; x=1542270000; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=G35ULfT+A+3aNotDdBV9qLo+jEIASPllXFchYD5r6iI=; b=Mtz1OgDEK+QlN shLE1SDjZSVR6PFbK2wBURHsnPgQTJLPGlAEEGyimxZ7s30JIwt8jyqB7rVwib2C GjFEpihR8g2DDG7eFg5qWpKDNbrmC7RPqPQFTkhEKUojPwAZ10df/MQTyr0P378h LFKRRWSuh4ZJvom1myfhwujBS89QI0= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:20:00 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:20:00 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951672.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:20:00 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:20:00 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:19:47 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Gert Doering , Lee Howard CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:20:05 -0000 This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv4 to I= Pv6. I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to kno= w the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs before, to= keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they rel= y in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses based on = that prefix, etc., etc., etc. Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conference= , editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or doing a = SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that acceptable? Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those requirements = aren't that much different than those that "regular" users are already have= today, just see the previous list. We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interruption= s, and we want to artificially create them? The operational cost for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix ch= ange than the cost of learning about option 37 and using it. That's not cou= nting the additional cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware vendo= rs, IETF standardization process, etc. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02 Para: Lee Howard CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, =20 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to w= ork=20 > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that ther= e's=20 > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies th= at=20 > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or= =20 > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to def= ine. =20 I'm in. =20 I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix). =20 Why? Because software needs to learn how to cope with changing prefixe= s, and if the "change!" event happens only once a year, software will=20 be perpetually broken in that regard. =20 =20 In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem today. What does a home network user do? =20 - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short- lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart" decides to code client IP address into a session cookie) =20 - synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using link-loca= l and mDNS already today) =20 - print -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right) =20 - backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage =20 - ... =20 =20 One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are=20 proper "home users". So when people here complain about "but my SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH session know where the=20 home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp. And you=20 know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use=20 screen/tmux + mosh... =20 Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? =20 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michae= l Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:32:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DD5130EB8 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzmW9i38urRo for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D94A1130F32 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id o89so25202261qko.0 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:32:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6PP7pjcy3Rl9UW9uosjsMOwKGYepR5sa6QGPP+A4lNE=; b=FeMK9aCm9JOk8ffGZwZEJ/hYX1C2h6OAKmGSytfeOwz6PqrY0vf3B6S1yp6M1ya8v/ Fy7yd8DQnJ1oVIJHvP2RdqAFIVboXLA89OKy1Vn+k2rCYDzCnkgi5jBeH+mLTvKgy0om P7ESZN6nLcVDecBrPi0bbJ9K4w8RaT+aWmUNsy4YCT3HgXpXfCQZlw8Ij0emTTCuxlQf 6xHdt7aMATJUgKh29TgFZ9CEPGAWD1RNP/bXh3pVgbjhQgyhwGoc2g1sQu5doN78Jsdy 2gBQyfT1DULY31dfgYU+YjG+1WSfMMGX37JmRpY3V61oOHXrLa1Xgm4a95/cqcbLbasE V3cA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6PP7pjcy3Rl9UW9uosjsMOwKGYepR5sa6QGPP+A4lNE=; b=C7BITIB265zp9SrLii6yo1eWRJguuWKCbtQuiw+kCOnwg6NhZJDpEo+jkqXzDfD7vh BT3ioyGjhJJ714V9hCQ6oGHin9kz6F+uWSlApMf8GAzQKu63izAA71GfwR8Z18p2KjvU iRTIJFY/GjhhgqIr2zCgRbQFNW4VW54K3Hx//hr8MVpqeQdkx7bHJbW89dSSHjeLi/bd JzKpAJ/yoBKKfk1TGsyHR+NYqwLwD9FRK37bRyWdHG9XR+QZTER1ArfiFVh0Qnmaevij Kvphnbo91ZgjhamDnFMkc4HTJDVsW8nPtaYwh2a/flUBpb089S2nMk5pZl2tXM8ywwgX y5Yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJ8ZO5pwl7VjYGaOMZSk/RnwMdE/6DuYt0rZSJ24nvOvsOVq0xm 2Dgi5KkzD9rpbBJiatz0KsqyzGaiWzDS3i2RwGXTyFyPF/U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5doixuJm0LO0iTGSMY3aqJcNjdHCy2p6qtK0/TNZf54ajTIHpuWPsranknXTLFA9grGlxO9fi/iHiz+woOnhfk= X-Received: by 2002:a37:c12:: with SMTP id 18mr1645834qkm.317.1541665929572; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:32:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:31:32 +0700 Message-ID: To: jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: Gert Doering , Time Warner Cable , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000184b1b057a23121e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:32:20 -0000 --000000000000184b1b057a23121e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In principle, when you change prefixes, this should occur while there is still some valid lifetime on the old prefix, so if you are in the middle of a download, unless the download goes longer than the valid lifetime of the address, you should be okay. But if it's a really long download, you need to be able to restart it. This is arguably true whether your prefix is being changed routinely or not. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:20 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv4 to > IPv6. > > I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to > know the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs befor= e, > to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they > rely in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses base= d > on that prefix, etc., etc., etc. > > Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work > conference, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, > or doing a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that > acceptable? > > Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those requirement= s > aren't that much different than those that "regular" users are already ha= ve > today, just see the previous list. > > We have more and more stable access technologies, less network > interruptions, and we want to artificially create them? > > The operational cost for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix > change than the cost of learning about option 37 and using it. That's not > counting the additional cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware > vendors, IETF standardization process, etc. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering < > gert@space.net> > Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02 > Para: Lee Howard > CC: > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks > > Hi, > > On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: > > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to > work > > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that > there's > > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies > that > > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities > or > > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to > define. > > I'm in. > > I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've > reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very > frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix). > > Why? Because software needs to learn how to cope with changing > prefixes, > and if the "change!" event happens only once a year, software will > be perpetually broken in that regard. > > > In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem > today. What does a home network user do? > > - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short- > lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart" decides to co= de > client IP address into a session cookie) > > - synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using > link-local > and mDNS already today) > > - print -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others > (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right) > > - backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage > > - ... > > > One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are > proper "home users". So when people here complain about "but my > SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH session know where the > home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp. And you > know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use > screen/tmux + mosh... > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, > Michael Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. > Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000184b1b057a23121e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In principle, when you change prefixes, this should occur = while there is still some valid lifetime on the old prefix, so if you are i= n the middle of a download, unless the download goes longer than the valid = lifetime of the address, you should be okay.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But if it's a = really long download, you need to be able to restart it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This i= s arguably true whether your prefix is being changed routinely or not.
On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:2= 0 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
This is a utopia, even much more difficult = to the transition from IPv4 to IPv6.

I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to kno= w the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs before, to= keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they rel= y in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses= based on that prefix, etc., etc., etc.

Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work confer= ence, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or doin= g a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that acceptabl= e?

Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those req= uirements aren't that much different than those that "regular"= ; users are already have today, just see the previous list.

We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interruption= s, and we want to artificially create them?

The operational cost for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix ch= ange than the cost of learning about option 37 and using it. That's not= counting the additional cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware v= endors, IETF standardization process, etc.

Regards,
Jordi



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
De: v6ops <v= 6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02
Para: Lee Howard <le= e@asgard.org>
CC: <v6ops@ietf.org<= /a>>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to f= ind ways to work
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to= me that there's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet te= chnologies that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of= commonalities or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that w= e need to define.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm in.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, bu= t I've
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rota= te prefixes very
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable p= refix).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Why?=C2=A0 Because software needs to learn how to cope with c= hanging prefixes,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and if the "change!" event happens only once a year= , software will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be perpetually broken in that regard.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real = problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 today.=C2=A0 What does a home network user do?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- request content from the Internet, mostly http/https,= with short-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone = "smart" decides to code
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client IP address into a session cookie)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no proble= m (using link-local
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and mDNS already today)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- print -> no problem for some printers, larger prob= lem for others
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendo= rs get it right)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled stor= age

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- ...


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participant= s are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proper "home users".=C2=A0 So when people here comp= lain about "but my
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH sessio= n know where the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1= % camp.=C2=A0 And you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 screen/tmux + mosh...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gert Doering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- NetMaster
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SpaceNet AG=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aufsicht= sratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USt= -IdNr.: DE813185279

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops@iet= f.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.



_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--000000000000184b1b057a23121e-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:37:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD357130F15 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:37:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eGYPnqZOH5mM for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1C86130F82 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:37:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541666232; x=1542271032; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=9HiZgio4LIGAd5bLwW3ahs thR7WbL780XRWXuZvIcEs=; b=pd+SterkQtL6TCKeiYpJ9wsxg1K2g9bsj5jNdQ oP6WQTk7gMqMPaMA6QDmoQin3yK+VwdqsR4zhHsTYYTN2jffYEwow/pjhHbCEkYQ 5l8Frw0V/hR+5QjG7wQfBmd3eD/dni5kKbovcdeUF6sGmF4aOddoldsjQxH3Se4q X/XxU= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:37:12 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:37:10 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005951691.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:37:10 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:37:10 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:36:56 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Ted Lemon CC: Gert Doering , Time Warner Cable , IPv6 Ops WG Message-ID: <8FE57D5D-EE1C-4A2D-8DFE-F2D4541EA152@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3624536224_2142753310" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:37:23 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3624536224_2142753310 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This is assuming that you change the prefix in the right way =E2=80=A6, not= just dropping them to one customer and assigning to another at the same ti= me, as operators are used to do this in IPv4 =E2=80=A6 This will also need = =E2=80=9Cproperly educate=E2=80=9D them. =20 As said, just in terms of operator cost (also helpdesk), I think this is an= operational complexity that has a higher cost than persistent prefix imple= mentation. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: Ted Lemon Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:32 Para: CC: Gert Doering , Time Warner Cable , IPv6= Ops WG Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks =20 In principle, when you change prefixes, this should occur while there is st= ill some valid lifetime on the old prefix, so if you are in the middle of a= download, unless the download goes longer than the valid lifetime of the a= ddress, you should be okay. But if it's a really long download, you need = to be able to restart it. This is arguably true whether your prefix is be= ing changed routinely or not. =20 On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:20 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv4 to I= Pv6. I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to kno= w the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs before, to= keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they rel= y in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses based on = that prefix, etc., etc., etc. Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conference= , editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or doing a = SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that acceptable? Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those requirements = aren't that much different than those that "regular" users are already have= today, just see the previous list. We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interruption= s, and we want to artificially create them? The operational cost for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix ch= ange than the cost of learning about option 37 and using it. That's not cou= nting the additional cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware vendo= rs, IETF standardization process, etc. Regards, Jordi =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02 Para: Lee Howard CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to w= ork=20 > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that ther= e's=20 > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies th= at=20 > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or= =20 > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to def= ine. I'm in. I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix). Why? Because software needs to learn how to cope with changing prefixe= s, and if the "change!" event happens only once a year, software will=20 be perpetually broken in that regard. In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem today. What does a home network user do? - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short- lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart" decides to code client IP address into a session cookie) - synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using link-loca= l and mDNS already today) - print -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right) - backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage - ... One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are=20 proper "home users". So when people here complain about "but my SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH session know where the=20 home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp. And you=20 know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use=20 screen/tmux + mosh... Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michae= l Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3624536224_2142753310 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

This is assuming that you change the prefix in the right way = =E2=80=A6, not just dropping them to one customer and assigning to another = at the same time, as operators are used to do this in IPv4 =E2=80=A6 This w= ill also need =E2=80=9Cproperly educate=E2=80=9D them.

 

As said, just in terms of operator cost (a= lso helpdesk), I think this is an operational complexity that has a higher = cost than persistent prefix implementation.

<= br>Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: Ted= Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de = 2018, 15:32
Para: <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, Time Warner Cable <lee@asgard.org= >, IPv6 Ops WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAA= C host moving between networks

 

In principle, when you change = prefixes, this should occur while there is still some valid lifetime on the= old prefix, so if you are in the middle of a download, unless the download= goes longer than the valid lifetime of the address, you should be okay.&nb= sp;  But if it's a really long download, you need to be able to restar= t it.   This is arguably true whether your prefix is being change= d routinely or not.

 

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:20 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ &l= t;jordi.palet=3D40consu= lintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition fr= om IPv4 to IPv6.

I think it is impossible we convince all the app pr= oviders that need to know the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), t= o update DNSs before, to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the = config files so they rely in a single place to look for "prefix" = then configure addresses based on that prefix, etc., etc., etc.

More= over, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conference, ed= iting an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or doing a SIP = call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that acceptable?
Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those r= equirements aren't that much different than those that "regular" = users are already have today, just see the previous list.

We have mo= re and more stable access technologies, less network interruptions, and we = want to artificially create them?

The operational cost for ISPs is m= uch higher with this artificial prefix change than the cost of learning about option 37 = and using it. That's not counting the additional cost for app developers, O= S developers, hardware vendors, IETF standardization process, etc.

R= egards,
Jordi



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
De: = v6ops <v6ops= -bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Fecha: jueves, 8= de noviembre de 2018, 15:02
Para: Lee Howard <lee@asgard.org>
CC: <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: = Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks

    Hi,
=
    On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrot= e:
    > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working grou= p to find ways to work
    > with changing prefixes, I wil= l support that. It seems to me that there's
    > a combin= ation of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that
  =   > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalit= ies or
    > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged netw= orks that we need to define.

    I'm in.

  &nb= sp; I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've
=     reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate p= refixes very
    frequently" (unless contractually agreei= ng on a stable prefix).

    Why?  Because software ne= eds to learn how to cope with changing prefixes,
    and if th= e "change!" event happens only once a year, software will
&nb= sp;   be perpetually broken in that regard.


    I= n most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem
&nbs= p;   today.  What does a home network user do?

  &nbs= p;  - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short= -
       lived sessions -> no problem (unless som= eone "smart" decides to code
       client= IP address into a session cookie)

     - synchronize= stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using link-local
  &nb= sp;    and mDNS already today)

     - print= -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others
  &n= bsp;    (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it= right)

     - backup their laptop to their TimeMachi= ne enabled storage

     - ...


   = ; One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are
&n= bsp;   proper "home users".  So when people here compla= in about "but my
    SSH sessions will break!" or &q= uot;how can my SSH session know where the
    home server *is= *, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp.  And you
  =   know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use
&n= bsp;   screen/tmux + mosh...

    Gert Doering
&nbs= p;           -- NetMaster
    --
=     have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

  &n= bsp; SpaceNet AG                &nb= sp;     Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
  &= nbsp; Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvor= s.: A. Grundner-Culemann
    D-80807 Muenchen    &nb= sp;            HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
&= nbsp;   Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-= IdNr.: DE813185279

    ___________________________________= ____________
    v6ops mailing list
    v6ops@ietf.org    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


<= br>
**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Ar= e you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Compan= y

This electronic message contains information which may be privileg= ed or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and wil= l be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient b= e aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents o= f this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictl= y prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to t= he original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing l= ist
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3624536224_2142753310-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:39:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D48130F37 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:39:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IVNLYtxgZo7D for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0523130F6C for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id d19so25165755qkg.5 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:39:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pmNI9AdrXaBm9o9dV8z2NkSJzTi1XVrbH4aBVnHDth8=; b=xdcQWorKsCpcJ0R+0JXHB9EkNa6AZvNjY+oAuseQd7o90T/+knsHjPaQjF6m9UqGe5 hPZ0WEEtpU5SIB7tPP8HzFZpazgNUCgM2NAaolO7+Xb2gZNqoioNHhajx7iB4E/+YKaR D4tlm2FcPo05UDDbYX8+U7VWBzHMitcTO8qq7IzHCCsWQTnrK7O5SS5L6TTF/auaSg/+ wBUYIL0A41BJKlcfbuE9QTa4w6fdJoFzSLPfwUHk2RfC3mB5LXWuyCXrji4PjuW8uyra iMc1eqQxBxyIVlCMHz/b+j4Tyq+56VopE/Bxa1eOIEyuITet+BAkjw1AAJupkFmbvhhW En1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pmNI9AdrXaBm9o9dV8z2NkSJzTi1XVrbH4aBVnHDth8=; b=W3rLRgVwJWwA0fXXFnJkfkUrLZJhAo22+JjPQdYVrhzMjMC3oln05AsboR+QRCSggy Lp4gvF7ZqYp1NiGGWf+DNyCE94mhva7SQmDlLCKYaioOO5oiohEeI6tfXcH6Yq8j9UVZ ZzUUV2DjQuYeJxj3lgKRS7N57mbTMETnZnZNYNgD0fLG+BEhqwoAPVLNRpaXjk0m0fcb mqyRqcLjZkpRio+vDDb/jS1kJcLuj2L+hGhov03pnixeRfY9mVjOwT4yqsQqmKUksgi1 ysbc/MTeVoyrspdy7dlsn4q60C2y7KRxGYV8zyC47R8VAlvxpIThQUdjC6GNhjHxJax3 KmgA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKlQHwylSwB2iU4eXo1OkLPQ9dAhS3gCQdRaa5CA3KsDz8pRPgR /xUND5O7cPiiiKdLCxuVW2Aoe6rbTFQ2wVUutpIDcNrMS5o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eksbX+ulHdbB9o5hGpLFeZFzCBTVSVIPd21bMdumoF76Am7xQAQJoIHey5lDeQkq732ciRKL6C31uT0Vfqp8o= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:981b:: with SMTP id c27mr1312690qvd.184.1541666376929; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:39:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <8FE57D5D-EE1C-4A2D-8DFE-F2D4541EA152@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <8FE57D5D-EE1C-4A2D-8DFE-F2D4541EA152@consulintel.es> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:39:00 +0700 Message-ID: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Gert Doering , Time Warner Cable , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c276df057a232c42" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:39:47 -0000 --000000000000c276df057a232c42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. If the ISP just slams your prefix every 24 hours without any overlap, you have a problem. And yes, doing it right isn't trivial. But I would argue that it's really a simple matter of programming=E2=80=94if this is a = feature that ISPs care about, the DHCP implementation isn't that hard. On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:37 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > This is assuming that you change the prefix in the right way =E2=80=A6, n= ot just > dropping them to one customer and assigning to another at the same time, = as > operators are used to do this in IPv4 =E2=80=A6 This will also need =E2= =80=9Cproperly > educate=E2=80=9D them. > > > > As said, just in terms of operator cost (also helpdesk), I think this is > an operational complexity that has a higher cost than persistent prefix > implementation. > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > > *De: *Ted Lemon > *Fecha: *jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:32 > *Para: * > *CC: *Gert Doering , Time Warner Cable , > IPv6 Ops WG > *Asunto: *Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks > > > > In principle, when you change prefixes, this should occur while there is > still some valid lifetime on the old prefix, so if you are in the middle = of > a download, unless the download goes longer than the valid lifetime of th= e > address, you should be okay. But if it's a really long download, you ne= ed > to be able to restart it. This is arguably true whether your prefix is > being changed routinely or not. > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:20 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org <40consulintel..es@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote= : > > This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv4 to > IPv6. > > I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to > know the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs befor= e, > to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they > rely in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses base= d > on that prefix, etc., etc., etc. > > Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work > conference, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, > or doing a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that > acceptable? > > Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", but those requirement= s > aren't that much different than those that "regular" users are already ha= ve > today, just see the previous list. > > We have more and more stable access technologies, less network > interruptions, and we want to artificially create them? > > The operational cost for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix > change than the cost of learning about option 37 and using it. That's not > counting the additional cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware > vendors, IETF standardization process, etc. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering < > gert@space.net> > Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02 > Para: Lee Howard > CC: > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks > > Hi, > > On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote: > > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to > work > > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that > there's > > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies > that > > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities > or > > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to > define. > > I'm in. > > I used to rant about ISPs that hand out changing prefixes, but I've > reconsidered - now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very > frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix). > > Why? Because software needs to learn how to cope with changing > prefixes, > and if the "change!" event happens only once a year, software will > be perpetually broken in that regard. > > > In most typical home networks, a prefix change is not a real problem > today. What does a home network user do? > > - request content from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short- > lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart" decides to co= de > client IP address into a session cookie) > > - synchronize stuff with their iDevices -> no problem (using > link-local > and mDNS already today) > > - print -> no problem for some printers, larger problem for others > (mDNS can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right) > > - backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage > > - ... > > > One of the problems here is that none of the IETF participants are > proper "home users". So when people here complain about "but my > SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH session know where the > home server *is*, today?", you're already in the 0.1% camp. And you > know how to run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use > screen/tmux + mosh... > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, > Michael Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. > Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > --000000000000c276df057a232c42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes.=C2=A0 If the ISP just slams your prefix every 24 hour= s without any overlap, you have a problem.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And yes, doing it ri= ght isn't trivial.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But I would argue that it's really a= simple matter of programming=E2=80=94if this is a feature that ISPs care a= bout, the DHCP implementation isn't that hard.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:37 PM JORDI PALET MAR= TINEZ <jordi.palet@consuli= ntel.es> wrote:

This is assuming that= you change the prefix in the right way =E2=80=A6, not just dropping them t= o one customer and assigning to another at the same time, as operators are = used to do this in IPv4 =E2=80=A6 This will also need =E2=80=9Cproperly edu= cate=E2=80=9D them.

=C2=A0

As said, just in terms of operator cost (also helpdesk), I thi= nk this is an operational complexity that has a higher cost than persistent= prefix implementation.


Regards,

Jordi<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

De: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Fecha: jue= ves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:32
Para: <jordi.palet@consulintel.es&= gt;
CC: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, Time Warner Cable <lee@asgard.org>, IPv6 Ops WG <= v6ops@ietf.org><= br>Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks<= /u>

=C2=A0

In principle, when you change prefixes, this should occur whi= le there is still some valid lifetime on the old prefix, so if you are in t= he middle of a download, unless the download goes longer than the valid lif= etime of the address, you should be okay.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But if it's a rea= lly long download, you need to be able to restart it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is a= rguably true whether your prefix is being changed routinely or not.<= u>

= =C2=A0

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:20 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D<= a href=3D"mailto:40consulintel..es@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cons= ulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transit= ion from IPv4 to IPv6.

I think it is impossible we convince all the = app providers that need to know the prefix/address change (in addition to O= ss), to update DNSs before, to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change al= l the config files so they rely in a single place to look for "prefix&= quot; then configure addresses based on that prefix, etc., etc., etc.
Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conf= erence, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or do= ing a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that accepta= ble?

Yes, we are those that have "special requirements", b= ut those requirements aren't that much different than those that "= regular" users are already have today, just see the previous list.
=
We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interrup= tions, and we want to artificially create them?

The operational cost= for ISPs is much higher with this artificial prefix change than the cost o= f learning about option 37 and using it. That's not counting the additi= onal cost for app developers, OS developers, hardware vendors, IETF standar= dization process, etc.

Regards,
Jordi



=EF=BB=BF---= --Mensaje original-----
De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Gert = Doering <gert@space.= net>
Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:02
Para: Lee Ho= ward <lee@asgard.org= >
CC: <v6o= ps@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networ= ks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02= :44:58AM -0500, Lee Howard wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If we need to recon= stitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >= ; with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there= 9;s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Ho= menet technologies that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > will make it all work, but m= aybe there's some set of commonalities or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > defaul= ts that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define.

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm in.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I used to rant about ISPs th= at hand out changing prefixes, but I've
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reconsidered -= now I'm in the camp "ISPs should rotate prefixes very
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 frequently" (unless contractually agreeing on a stable prefix).=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Why?=C2=A0 Because software needs to learn how to cop= e with changing prefixes,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and if the "change!" e= vent happens only once a year, software will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be perpetual= ly broken in that regard.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most typical home net= works, a prefix change is not a real problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 today.=C2=A0 = What does a home network user do?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- request cont= ent from the Internet, mostly http/https, with short-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0lived sessions -> no problem (unless someone "smart"= decides to code
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client IP address into a ses= sion cookie)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- synchronize stuff with their iDev= ices -> no problem (using link-local
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and m= DNS already today)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- print -> no problem for = some printers, larger problem for others
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(mDN= S can be made to work, not all printer vendors get it right)

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0- backup their laptop to their TimeMachine enabled storage
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- ...


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One of the problems = here is that none of the IETF participants are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proper &qu= ot;home users".=C2=A0 So when people here complain about "but my<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SSH sessions will break!" or "how can my SSH ses= sion know where the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 home server *is*, today?", you&#= 39;re already in the 0.1% camp.=C2=A0 And you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 know how to= run your DNS zone, do dynamic DNS update, and use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 screen= /tmux + mosh...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gert Doering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- NetMaster
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 hav= e you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SpaceNet AG= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Joseph-D= ollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundne= r-Culemann
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 T= el: +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USt-IdNr.: DE81318= 5279

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops




*******************= ***************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new In= ternet ?
htt= p://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic m= essage contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The in= formation is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) name= d above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribu= tion or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, includi= ng attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal= offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosur= e, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even i= f partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be cons= idered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to info= rm about this communication and delete it.



_________________= ______________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**= ********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.thei= pv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--000000000000c276df057a232c42-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:40:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1EC130EB2 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lw6xkRs9__zd for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4C2130F3B for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:39:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B0941C39 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:55 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302C241135; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 20C4020510; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:55 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Gert Doering , Lee Howard , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nLbOoZBiPgRq0PIt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:40:06 -0000 --nLbOoZBiPgRq0PIt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 03:19:47PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv4 to= IPv6. >=20 > I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need to k= now the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs before, = to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so they r= ely in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses based o= n that prefix, etc., etc., etc. Who is talking about DNS? Who is talking about config files? *This* is what the app providers need to come to understand - hardcoding IP addresses in places is just the wrong way to go about it. Some CPE vendors got this right already for their ACLs, for example - in the AVM routers, you configure the ACL for the host part. If the prefix changes, no need to change the ACL, because the host part is the same (provided no IID randomization happens, but for ACLs permits you need stable host parts anyway). Most others got stuck in last century, unfortunately. > Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conferen= ce, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or doing = a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that acceptable? Everything is moving towards short-lived https sessions anyway. Those just won't care if the client address changes. But how long are you telephoning, anyway? Bring in a new prefix,=20 deprecate the old one, but *keep it working* for a few hours before killing it. Old phone call will go on until it ends, new phone call will use the new prefix. But this is precisely why mind-sets needs to change. Prefix changes are inevitable. Period. So make them happen *frequent*, like "once a day", so people can stop hiding in their "THIS WILL NEVER WORK!" corner and just make it work. [..] > We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interrupti= ons, and we want to artificially create them? The point is: prefix *will change*. If you put hardcoded IPv6 addresses everywhere, and things change once a year, you have lots of work to fix all the places that you forgot about. If you force a prefix change once per week or once a day, it will be rough in the beginning but for unmanaged SoHo networks, eventually it will be just transparent. Mix in homenet, then you can even have multi-/48 multihoming very nicely and transparently. But I'm no longer going to spend time on this - I've made my point, a few times, and in some 10 years, you'll agree with me. (Of course, we can just use NAT66, and then you can have all your stable prefixes forever :-) ) Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --nLbOoZBiPgRq0PIt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvj9lgACgkQ31bAZeTO f8Ul2RAArKTWuHai+8zze+MYNSSeN2Lf8Ksl4YgudhfAS9vdNG/H/5f3C1pjJ0BQ tDgbO30Cg7oXx5ADsSrEl7Pb9aTSfyYSJKUBLwF8bGZ1tAgztF/0vE/yaDAbUIed Ppj0Hro7egF322cOL71nkCPOENK1VFgj9Pt6e9blQivV1OEs21UBbr3QP91un7RK LcyA3Gn4PmlB7o4a20wpNvcufD5ZFb6PD5548C7Iay8Goz5hXCn0lFO4tSenhMYR vjPhfcLQHwsls91RbCL+P9h9XymhW8CDpwJaXzIMJbuUqQXenY44dctHXOWF6yJ5 QSQD/Y8eJOk2hIee0YpgHpO4sg/vrbq/il3itfjO5dkxPoy73hcLbkNdZhY3IWHV vWnF+B83DPP9MgKkzUEDIya4TmnlxwddCjd1ojwNotrT+py1qRny0Pm8dN+d9t4d S/+w/qwEvdsuCE5YfqoqY+Cd46C0lNDDc5xP49P6Bdd8UEBwDvM0y3Fn8tzzMzug vxsSWQ6aWi11ngCwFg8s+RKih8wESssfjkpXEMBGEgRIOuKBCsliFqz/gagUrnxF Znqry/PxYTllf1wo/GwCrY396ZnWaPwhQE57ZKhWvzp1SzyXEyx2gZ9dMpHgW61L 8HItipWhmhTKVMbmKt7ndC749g/tOHLaipnrJVcu9mN0W2o3nzo= =lTZh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nLbOoZBiPgRq0PIt-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 01:13:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D07130F74 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:13:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nEcLWFKWd-6q for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52D03130F4D for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092BA4B; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:13:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1541668422; bh=GoS2HJ8P+lUQAQmybrHQIaaDfy0uKETNFHJqMmOwlbU=; b=U MQT/dBSMu+0KB9SQ95wXK0lVwvetwWkok7N32a7b6j02fm+R3wAHQhXy7OHy4chP OnbfauQoL5/uDJN6H5r5CGmqwqaB++rI2mHOFmFUGnRK2C13UQh6ML5kEQG42vGx BEM8VHmQg8Bg+NaCZnmUYtNUh5bURWFpSIm2DOoR3Q= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id H_gUgKJlamWX; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:13:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.44] (unknown [46.44.175.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 874914A; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:13:41 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:13:39 +0100 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <223F3EF3-2B0B-4E93-A935-7377BC1EDD53@steffann.nl> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> To: Lee Howard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:13:54 -0000 Hi Lee, > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to = work with changing prefixes, I will support that. Me too. Cheers, Sander From nobody Thu Nov 8 01:36:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07678130F29 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wXFBnuKTVWZc for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE33128BCC for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id a132so25440869qkg.1 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 01:36:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sl9o4XFn0jLLQluTuP0MDf1xDbyYobhaXbZiiDz4Ux0=; b=rPA+00GfQN/SO0Djfoa/OoHuTStE1F9QyEsZEwPJ9CJRysKzHrnqKQCclx7iGO9bbL Wor1btmBu5kd/98vocrCqnXKAuHoEqz2hc31Lxwb5QLUXI+IO4FnzZWluBHFeFilS2u3 wtA6PV0YLyUuQ4AD8e1xqtq2I0v2UeQ6IvvretcLlP69RlOhZGZR8iFokLG58SNCvLf7 iTHFC3ksO3s/kx1veCQcU61Aq4GmXrFChYAd0tHpbVPOT+DtYATQKDWaMHwkg2P9GAQC ADkq5Yc7g15BoFHr86wdFMkMZ2hrBAg3EwUab0erhajmylk+aXX1XGwgowKGosWWVVNm dG5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sl9o4XFn0jLLQluTuP0MDf1xDbyYobhaXbZiiDz4Ux0=; b=P/jt/emDJWLgOPdfTWm10/vJbTOIPkaLwXofrCauOkYes7DlbWEna7bzx1Vk7UgLUk BkwKG8lzVZqjPQ24h4edStFcvkvRHNwpH4exLmpMbqEaSOiVdi3QYVyzuEqyXPcloIjw m0zaZ3q9kGr3We7jlgIUzUGDEHbKoe4VITJw8vgnviqs48LZq5VLcTrhp1i0y5R2x6G0 QFOYogz2bdISvX3/5OQNLtAkZqvA0adsaolNf5+8vmTPqLpjJCwru9OxVKv7E6wZmx3X UX/xUm5XEz9ZIjGSqibKNs3122HkcYmmSmSPsz1PIEpO7nZ+cd1IGsdHaSne7mYjoYjs AGzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLhUmgEyn6UxCajLStVwKEWuKBsUd3fGuTs2eetlMShK/RNwwZa EAOcdpCz+NR+zxzrd4q46bgLQXxkV3ice305rS8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cRLFxiHAO6pbCn8vtf16ZpLZ5X7CuzPWO//GERtR7HrMdVcXaPrJJde2Ghf8QiMK2O/JQmb7HsqVgci5V4J2c= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:34b3:: with SMTP id w48mr3766098qtb.125.1541669775553; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 01:36:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:36:03 +1100 Message-ID: To: jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: florian@openbsd.org, V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:36:24 -0000 On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:22 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > I just realized that this is the same problem we described in RIPE-690 to= recommend persistent prefixes, because when a CPE has a power outage, if t= he ISP is changing the prefix, hosts may keep the original one, and not be = able to communicate for a while ... I'd say 'similar but not the same. What you are describing is a router violating CPE Requirement RFC. Behavior described in this thread is more like a host behavior bug. > One CPE vendor seems to keep the prefix in flash, so if it gets changed a= cross a reboot or WAN down/up, then can send RA with lifetime 0 to the LANs= ... I'd like to point out that if a router does not deprecate a prefix if it gets changed after reboot etc, the router clearly violates the requirement L13 of RFC7084 > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Florian Obser > Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 18:35 > Para: > Asunto: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks > > Hi, > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulates > unusable addresses over time. > > For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64 is > advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the end > of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home. > > At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the > laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link and a > router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the laptop > has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:42::= /64. > > Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the > Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. > > If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a prefix > advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from bot= h > prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set for > source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie > breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations can b= e > reach while others can't. > > A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with > legacy-IP only. > > While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation to a > user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/slaacd= ) > in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how to > handle this case. > > The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses > around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes invalid)= , > there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses earlier= . > > So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and the > knee jerk reaction was: > Hum, interesting. > Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. > No wait, when the interface comes up. > No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation and > if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the addresses > and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table of th= e > router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. > > I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that delete= s > addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - including > moving to legacy IP only. > > In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link come= s > up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that > prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but cause= s > problems when moving to legacy-IP only. > > Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs aroun= d > and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). > > Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores them on= wake > up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behaviour > but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only deletes th= em > later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. > > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, this > doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we should > have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, > I have more complicated scenarios.) > > Thanks, > Florian > > -- > I'm not entirely sure you are real. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or c= onfidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the= individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure= , copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if= partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be co= nsidered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware= that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohi= bited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the orig= inal sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Thu Nov 8 01:36:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19548130F4D for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGs3Cn62oWJB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF46130F97 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCED7E607B; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:36:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:36:40 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20181108.103640.11126501.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: gert@space.net Cc: jordi.palet@consulintel.es, v6ops@ietf.org From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> References: <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 26 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:36:51 -0000 > But this is precisely why mind-sets needs to change. Prefix changes are > inevitable. Period. So make them happen *frequent*, like "once a day", > so people can stop hiding in their "THIS WILL NEVER WORK!" corner and > just make it work. This sounds like an excellent way to create irritated customers. Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Thu Nov 8 01:47:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CDB1293FB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:47:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I5aHiMwCfp5J for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8511D130F19 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4116741C21 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:47:00 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A4841C10; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:47:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 22B5C209BA; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:47:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:47:00 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: gert@space.net, jordi.palet@consulintel.es, v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108094700.GX11393@Space.Net> References: <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> <20181108.103640.11126501.sthaug@nethelp.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1ShnCnZYtRcP/sI5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181108.103640.11126501.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:47:09 -0000 --1ShnCnZYtRcP/sI5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 10:36:40AM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > But this is precisely why mind-sets needs to change. Prefix changes are > > inevitable. Period. So make them happen *frequent*, like "once a day", > > so people can stop hiding in their "THIS WILL NEVER WORK!" corner and > > just make it work. >=20 > This sounds like an excellent way to create irritated customers. I would wager a guess that 99.9% of customers won't notice a prefix change *at all* today. Deutsche Telekom is changing /56 assignments to DSL customers "sometimes" (the algorithm when it changes is not documented), and nobody seems to care. OK, "today", most of the poorly written applications just use v4 anyway,=20 so if v6 is there or not, or if it is changing has no real significance on those - but for the long run, if we can make this work properly in a non-v4 environment, this would be a huge win. OTOH, I think I will be much better paid to work on people's NAT boxes for the next 20 years, so I could care less. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --1ShnCnZYtRcP/sI5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvkBhEACgkQ31bAZeTO f8XoLA/8C3+zcld5+HKJaj8oKfDfRz38KPosqpJFVrqLy4vt9tcG1+2ACECVKnES 0eXwdLyGHUcqeWJpS1OLkZoFtsIrqDugpC5tXXqAhAps5zpbdshk3g5xl2wnGW6R FXLa8yDrfrrVBud9AwVuwUXN8lsdiyKPPrIvtx7YRtIb5wXZtRmji0YW08FZBaIy HbUBVKPvM8GO7cwxP2p5qPQDpn4g51DH90mvBUrSIk7H6OTwL+4t6V/MfUgbLgdX nBZhG60HFI1YwNHRtMcbV75JbhGZe4XJlS5a1aIDPB1oRuGRkuYBls/aHjYI3Zfl lJ4MDlS8Z9RmhrOXrPdkBIaX9rb0MLay4HJaKjwxiFXiiVFpGq57eOsX3hRbX5uF d6XggpgjOSIwdHo+igNEtaE8CLmZ2nCcG2QYmactmmgpIEUgUrFVCp4OmUfPdwkA OtttKeqATM4JZEYqXfL6lIZjTMSk9trS148XB+bO8SUKt0dqkxnaJBsx0s7t0NWU krTW4/K4/nynAFJsbIL2fEeMn0y9tz9ZwbTiY6osH9tFUZz0tGl5u8Pp60C482LS sjEnIq5pY3PSLJAYx/MtOBHqjqj6xVvf+AAWTXTNesDdhJRzQK2Vq30U6Muny98G J6hW1aQfrxlN5koqd0hXbw9Gyr4x4XBhdzW6rY1bsSqfBju4TLM= =VfLz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1ShnCnZYtRcP/sI5-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 02:02:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B11128C65 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:02:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUQ-JZ7Jkw-R for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 524D9123FFD for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:02:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541671371; x=1542276171; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=7Om+x/pDONi2hUZz3wPB84mAqCqCCJhyor7USyV1yU8=; b=URa5sl9OKiqzr Ul+mXuGHU8GOp+axhSCB1AlpO2Zw3jjCaDf8M+5Znrzbq7+IawZ7ooDCHtChZSoi 8OhjaxbPbbXSWy9W7Um/Co8uOsaxFMAdy7S0CATSWpfHBCciRAo+RlsrpqTPJ583 FT1R1KU9buvE9ZcBjmx4PHBAub4AHQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:02:51 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:02:51 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005952058.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:02:50 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:02:50 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:02:46 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Jen Linkova CC: V6 Ops List , Message-ID: <8B1298BF-9A83-477A-A8DC-6440ED55AFF6@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:02:56 -0000 Hi Jen, Something you're right ... is not the same. And yes, I just reread RFC7084 = and is a violation. However, unfortunately, only one vendor that I know is following that ... Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Jen Linkova Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 16:37 Para: CC: V6 Ops List , Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:22 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > I just realized that this is the same problem we described in RIPE-69= 0 to recommend persistent prefixes, because when a CPE has a power outage, = if the ISP is changing the prefix, hosts may keep the original one, and not= be able to communicate for a while ... =20 I'd say 'similar but not the same. What you are describing is a router violating CPE Requirement RFC. Behavior described in this thread is more like a host behavior bug. =20 > One CPE vendor seems to keep the prefix in flash, so if it gets chang= ed across a reboot or WAN down/up, then can send RA with lifetime 0 to the = LANs ... =20 I'd like to point out that if a router does not deprecate a prefix if it gets changed after reboot etc, the router clearly violates the requirement L13 of RFC7084 =20 > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Florian Obser > Fecha: martes, 6 de noviembre de 2018, 18:35 > Para: > Asunto: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks > > Hi, > When an IPv6 host moves between networks using SLAAC it accumulat= es > unusable addresses over time. > > For example a laptop is used in the office where 2001:db8:23::/64= is > advertised and configures two IPs (RFC 7217 and RFC 4941). At the= end > of the day the lid is shut, the laptop suspends and is taken home= . > > At home 2001:db8:42::/64 is advertised. The lid is opened and the > laptop wakes up. This is treated as a (re-)attachment to a link a= nd a > router solicitation is send (RFC 4861 Section 6.3.7). Now the lap= top > has 4 addresses, two from 2001:db8:23::/64 and two from 2001:db8:= 42::/64. > > Only the addresses from 2001:db8:42::/64 are usable to reach the > Internet since the next hop for 2001:db8:23::/64 is unreachable. > > If the host does not implement rule 5.5 "Prefer addresses in a pr= efix > advertised by the next-hop." of RFC 6274 Section 5 addresses from= both > prefixes are treated equally valid and stay in the candidate set = for > source address selection. Rule 8 is probably going to be the tie > breaker "Use longest matching prefix" meaning some destinations c= an be > reach while others can't. > > A similar problem arises when the host moves to a network with > legacy-IP only. > > While moving SLAAC from the original KAME kernel implementation t= o a > user land implementation ( slaacd(8) - https://man.openbsd.org/sl= aacd ) > in OpenBSD I couldn't find any guidance in the RFCs regarding how= to > handle this case. > > The general spirit in the RFCs seems to be to keep the addresses > around until the valid lifetime expires (the address becomes inva= lid), > there is no other suggestion that one should delete addresses ear= lier. > > So I asked the usual suspects at the 103 welcome reception and th= e > knee jerk reaction was: > Hum, interesting. > Delete the IPs when the interface goes down. > No wait, when the interface comes up. > No, hang on, when the interface comes up you send a solicitation = and > if you don't get an answer from the old router delete the address= es > and form new ones, otherwise you might flood the neighbor table o= f the > router because you generate privacy addresses like crazy. > > I note that my work Mac gets this right by some heuristic that de= letes > addresses. There are no issues moving between networks - includin= g > moving to legacy IP only. > > In OpenBSD I'm setting the preferred lifetime to 0 when the link = comes > up and restore it if a router advertisement is seen with that > prefix. This works nicely when moving between IPv6 networks but c= auses > problems when moving to legacy-IP only. > > Anecdotal evidence suggests that FreeBSD just keeps the old IPs a= round > and on Linux it depends on what software you are using(?). > > Network-manager seems to delete all the IPs and then restores the= m on wake > up, i.e. you don't get new privacy IPs. Kinda like the Mac behavi= our > but the Mac seems to keep the IPs around at first and only delete= s them > later while linux deletes the IPs on suspend. > > Did I miss an RFC / RFCs that provides more guidance? If not, thi= s > doesn't seem to be a completely trivial problem and I think we sh= ould > have some words on it. (I only mentioned the easiest case so far, > I have more complicated scenarios.) > > Thanks, > Florian > > -- > I'm not entirely sure you are real. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of= the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclo= sure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will b= e considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be a= ware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of t= his information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly p= rohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the = original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Nov 8 02:56:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F927123FFD for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dtLMrLZsl-F for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CD11128CF3 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:56:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541674595; x=1542279395; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=1/5/GH1RsetL6lXAfcTrvvFO3s3OcR9yXZyltSK/e9Y=; b=c2uXqH7NM6D6X 2Ka0ERX4HUeFSV7O+J4X5mghRqec8YyHchQZg5w4OogHLzCQlegkdQrbjA8VUru9 2wtInOFUpnhtq9aW+gAA8/oRKdJxxiN+sANs9NDKaSoeJvw5yuVZkrrFWQAXrAfW ftwhBYZkTmFUEDrj82H3OdoqajKrwg= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:56:35 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:56:34 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005952173.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:56:33 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:56:33 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:56:23 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Gert Doering CC: Lee Howard , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 10:56:40 -0000 If you have a DNS server inside that network, needs to know what prefix has= been changed, need to coordinate the lifetime with the change, etc. In addition to residential users, SMEs have this kind of things, and they w= ill not pay for an enterprise internet service because is not needed. We need to build a protocol so the router or the ISP tell the DNS server al= l that ... Most of the IPTV apps that I've seen break even if the interruption is for = very short time when changing the address, that means it is needed to play = over the TV program using "fast forward". That not nice. Probably is work that can be done in homenet. I also agree that will be very nice to have that working, but it is a utopi= a. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Gert Doering Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 15:39 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Gert Doering , Lee Howard , Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, =20 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 03:19:47PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > This is a utopia, even much more difficult to the transition from IPv= 4 to IPv6. >=20 > I think it is impossible we convince all the app providers that need = to know the prefix/address change (in addition to Oss), to update DNSs befo= re, to keep both addresses in the DNS, to change all the config files so th= ey rely in a single place to look for "prefix" then configure addresses bas= ed on that prefix, etc., etc., etc. =20 Who is talking about DNS? Who is talking about config files? =20 *This* is what the app providers need to come to understand - hardcodin= g IP addresses in places is just the wrong way to go about it. =20 Some CPE vendors got this right already for their ACLs, for example - i= n the AVM routers, you configure the ACL for the host part. If the prefi= x changes, no need to change the ACL, because the host part is the same (provided no IID randomization happens, but for ACLs permits you need stable host parts anyway). Most others got stuck in last century, unfortunately. =20 =20 > Moreover, if I'm downloading/uploading a big file, having a work conf= erence, editing an on-line file, or playing a game, or watching IPTV, or do= ing a SIP call, it will be broken with every prefix change. Is that accepta= ble? =20 Everything is moving towards short-lived https sessions anyway. Those just won't care if the client address changes. =20 But how long are you telephoning, anyway? Bring in a new prefix,=20 deprecate the old one, but *keep it working* for a few hours before killing it. Old phone call will go on until it ends, new phone call will use the new prefix. =20 =20 But this is precisely why mind-sets needs to change. Prefix changes ar= e inevitable. Period. So make them happen *frequent*, like "once a day"= , so people can stop hiding in their "THIS WILL NEVER WORK!" corner and just make it work. =20 =20 [..] > We have more and more stable access technologies, less network interr= uptions, and we want to artificially create them? =20 The point is: prefix *will change*. If you put hardcoded IPv6 addres= ses everywhere, and things change once a year, you have lots of work to fix all the places that you forgot about. =20 If you force a prefix change once per week or once a day, it will be rough in the beginning but for unmanaged SoHo networks, eventually it will be just transparent. =20 Mix in homenet, then you can even have multi-/48 multihoming very nicel= y and transparently. =20 =20 But I'm no longer going to spend time on this - I've made my point, a f= ew times, and in some 10 years, you'll agree with me. =20 (Of course, we can just use NAT66, and then you can have all your stabl= e prefixes forever :-) ) =20 Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? =20 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michae= l Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Nov 8 03:06:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A378130DC6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id naZQ_zUNDYG7 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A67212F1A5 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7BC41C13 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:06:13 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7BE41135; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:06:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 9704620E41; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:06:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:06:13 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Gert Doering , Lee Howard , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108110613.GZ11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wv+XAHXh08TqpTGy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:06:17 -0000 --Wv+XAHXh08TqpTGy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 05:56:23PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > If you have a DNS server inside that network, needs to know what prefix h= as been changed, need to coordinate the lifetime with the change, etc. SoHo networks do not have DNS servers. They have mDNS. SME networks are either managed (in which case they would opt for "give me a static prefix") or unmanaged, in which case the above rule applies. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --Wv+XAHXh08TqpTGy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvkGKQACgkQ31bAZeTO f8XEYg/+OLEkAkMLf5X6+QDmXBWZr/1QcLML2IBadQvjf59sPxPtAuqt4R39lzCX Utq4ip1PS7FQWMVOy1urpd4C3Krndn8pEnW8Ij9hLMTNwrwCVZBAJGCrb+ZG6G2M kaNxHwcTEmDiIeMlfZiKxpzsyqB0JpX8NtNPh6k2Y23Gz9j4C71xS9kl8VQJapn8 MvNoPPJj5IVpmDqx2hQBltR4flZuFRuoJkhCVxfSr5nHmMw0mglGMgko/2xRrcl7 Dd5mjpBN7nwFjHpeRWhNVS0CrKr8Be8SUKX+Bkv5ZLoxlzZdDHCANXGnRtI+vdJp 38lZ/YoaPVWw88opPcG+nQ5Zi0tvtVSHZczcCBs+tEFwgse5azKBovefTeTaCsTh aDfsxzTLtYGtetZOBLqdAaHXHbjjQqPwLrprc9X7t2WcyfEBv6ojhuAw92qlmfaT Dc+5ZPFsOhrHlE0MBcB6q/s6XhYZlmVwxAVwO37pKThs9r7dP9kWUXvgBA/Z56ss x3R0HvbMSb43uYIodLToXMZYg+iNCbba9eNlLdSn3ZJHvaA1wtzzGB6gKZwb7Hnr 9BL/djCmc1Lk40E2vMDwW/mnMinLRdvYADQLahUyb69gjks/4nAP9eqm+4khBQsZ H0EyqGbwoW7rXMDndX0AU84c0+qbrKkKDtRBOw2DJlKm200JlK8= =Si8N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wv+XAHXh08TqpTGy-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 03:10:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25CEE128CF3 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:10:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJtbMtznd9Gj for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B70C1130FEE for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:09:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541675387; x=1542280187; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=zUmvR8VRAiEcM+EsNluqA4m2TXttq2PVihDe/flcLTU=; b=Px+L+Jl/sL9Xp iGO6/0yBCleypF30H2GzBi5ZCOSl//OK9PkarO5NcjEokeyPWoVfcl/qlqKiB6aZ DFW4Ue5HIS1p2Ld/O5pkFGxwGo/Lbu+Y+gAejbdZFXZM4KOWeF1vM678p9sL6i8b H+aUCx1Z9rzOibmVnvgSynGaHPpU4c= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:09:47 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:09:47 +0100 Received: from [172.20.60.83] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005952208.msg for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:09:46 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.6 X-MDHelo: [172.20.60.83] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:09:46 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185056c60b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 18:09:38 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Gert Doering CC: Lee Howard , Message-ID: <4798B567-17BB-401F-8043-0B499CF8927B@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108080211.GT11393@Space.Net> <20181108083955.GU11393@Space.Net> <20181108110613.GZ11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181108110613.GZ11393@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:10:01 -0000 It is not that way in many countries ... Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Gert Doering Fecha: jueves, 8 de noviembre de 2018, 18:06 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Gert Doering , Lee Howard , Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi, =20 On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 05:56:23PM +0700, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > If you have a DNS server inside that network, needs to know what pref= ix has been changed, need to coordinate the lifetime with the change, etc. =20 SoHo networks do not have DNS servers. They have mDNS. =20 SME networks are either managed (in which case they would opt for "give me a static prefix") or unmanaged, in which case the above rule applies= . =20 Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? =20 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michae= l Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Nov 8 03:39:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E60130E6C; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:39:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xjD7t0prUYka; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1F7B130EB2; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8BdF26006554; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:39:15 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 80568203777; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:39:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B63F200D25; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:39:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8BdE97031171; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:39:14 +0100 To: Fred Baker , Fred Templin Cc: Ole Troan , 6man WG , v6ops list References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <9ddd5065-79b2-46d3-f2fa-ba01660ac7bf@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:39:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:39:26 -0000 Le 07/11/2018 à 23:05, Fred Baker a écrit : > > >> On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:27 AM, Templin (US), Fred L >> wrote: >> >> The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional >> messages in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the >> protocol itself. >> >> It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a >> single unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives >> within the RS/RA messages. >> >> Thanks - Fred > > Well, all autoconfguration *is* done using one message - the RA. But > prefixes are not auto-configured. This makes think what you want is to make prefix autoconfiguration like address allocation, in SLAAC; the equivalent is plen==56 in RA and a 'subnet ID' to be formed by the Host between positions 56 and 64, "out of thin air". None of this does exists either (SLAAC works only with plen 64 because IID must be 64, and Subnet IDs are not formed out of thin air). > RFC 7695, to give a network the > ability to distribute /64s within a prefix allocated to it, makes > sense (alrthough it is limited to /64s, based on the idea that it is > distributing minimal prefixes to LANs) make sense to me. Limited to /64. > But > autoconfiguration using a SLAAC-like algorithm doesn't make sense in > my mind, because autoconfiguration of a prefix means more than "pick > a number out of the air". _Could_ be like that "pick a number out of the air", if a document described it and implementation did it. (it's not what this draft describes now). Alex > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, > Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu > > From nobody Thu Nov 8 04:09:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C383130EC0 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:09:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bo5z811Miu8H for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BFB6130E46 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id e19-v6so925635oii.13 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:09:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WVYnST81Vy6PsfuEcP3l2C6jvRdXYDsLP5RhR26vfx4=; b=DmXNvNBkrGzy002EYeI02QfZuIAPwv3Urzcq81aVEHiH0OzQ1DedW1mg0yJqInG4Zz pLtPkONq8MB5SFMLM6ioe94K32ilooC5rz+tD9qfvaGsWEtxJ5f+68lOz+sZZUbP1dcA RAqcXwDpWpOaIPd4UD/LBsXbI00NcW+d0HEAa9zLzFImtmg0TxwWD3XL3aAipyiDZidd S2ydBAACy9bdspzQuERGoBiUnKPbgAldybNTgQdKLariwFzSY4znZ1MKU/WZhJ2a2+k6 Y47k1vBMuV9sOBLwVWl3sx6BxyQ4XU6Kyflai302MgUqjbad/NtD0J/fZZyHyXPLlZt1 AZ/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WVYnST81Vy6PsfuEcP3l2C6jvRdXYDsLP5RhR26vfx4=; b=liWR/VUXz1xNcOIhE/blMThiDbg2kD+XEDonBH6rXXHAOiD+7ZPrswmg7bc52bc5SR TmoW3rxayqLBsNXCWJs/8p6PZtumc9gjaAKLooJd4b8bbfHOz/uAjzx9o7kO5XLj7KMS wWSeJLPGi66aQDGd+ihFeYsd/TIL76rw5Eg1xfbMOmNKzJrNmKgqA3tOulJafUKiRnxX T/0vg2EuXKYz4/yH/DSe37oN4grDWG46vasC5/4IpkDjy2JcDWDuA8fSOUcI86cO2m3R PcIlGXsHzVG049yi0x6BSLWVKJ8uf02uwqxOrKUT9i5syw3dEVLcXcQq+JI7FcNeGVH0 RosQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJUQgjNKmG4xfZl7ybDx9XI5HoTpDcteiWSRTcbtlZAU7fHjBrN 1m/fvVhrk10mB5e1bB6V+5XrYjqYSpbCrW+GScmNAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dbfMIED/gQT3qoH8rA9NJWulEQPEmfYFvSYezCG5zWBiIrTbH7v+vhxMKzo+V9gQILAfMNPR6dwbeUtt8G0tA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e484:: with SMTP id b126-v6mr2486001oih.60.1541678964261; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:09:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:08:57 +1100 Message-ID: To: Lee Howard Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005c5b0057a261b69" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:09:28 -0000 --00000000000005c5b0057a261b69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Lee, On Thu., 8 Nov. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard > On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there > is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also > offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... > > Sorry. You can't have prefix stability. Not sure what you mean by that. I've had the same stable IPv6 prefix for the past 7 years on my home broadband connection, as have all residential IPv6 customers of my ISP since 2010 (and I know that was the design, because I was one of the people who worked on that IPv6 residential deployment). You have to let network > operators manage their networks. The only issue is route aggregation. With stable home broadband connections, you're not going to get a lot of route churn, so your need for aggregation is driven by conserving route table slots, rather than load caused by route flaps. (BGP assumed ...) If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stability without guaranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical area were stability is provided. If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix. If the customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different stable prefix. I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means the ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't need to at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of permanent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium for. This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and > it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. > > > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there's > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define. > If it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want changing prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than done, which is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed every 24 hours suggests to me they may not have much understanding of what that would entail to make it seamless and automatic. Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one of the most common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches dynamic address assignment from a pool and reallocates the same address to the same authenticated user if they disconnect and then reconnect to the same BRAS. Most ISPs seem to like a very small number of very large BRASes (unlike me) at a service aggregation point, so the likelihood of being assigned the same IPv4 address across disconnect/reconnect goes up. If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the same IPv4 address for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and their BRAS uptime. If there is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a very similar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have had for the last 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband became available. I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just observing that it has been an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long time. Regards, Mark > Lee > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --00000000000005c5b0057a261b69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
Hi Lee,

On Thu., 8 No= v. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard <lee@asgard.org wrote:

On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 the= re is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also= offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ...

Sorry. You can't have prefix stability.

Not sure what you mean by that.

I've had the same stable= IPv6 prefix for the past 7 years on my home broadband connection, as have = all residential IPv6 customers of my ISP since 2010 (and I know that was th= e design, because I was one of the people who worked on that IPv6 residenti= al deployment).

You have to let network =
operators manage their networks.
=
The only issue is route aggregation.=C2=A0

With stable home broadband c= onnections, you're not going to get a lot of route churn, so your need = for aggregation is driven by conserving route table slots, rather than load= caused by route flaps. (BGP assumed ...)

=
If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stabi= lity without guaranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical a= rea were stability is provided.

If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix= . If the customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different sta= ble prefix.

I think ther= e is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means the ISP will try= to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't need to at so= metime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of permanent a= ssignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium for.
<= div dir=3D"auto">

This isn't an = "educate ISPs" issue, and
it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is.


If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there'= s
a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or <= br> defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define.

If= it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want changin= g prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than done, which= is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed every 24 hours su= ggests to me they may not have much understanding of what that would entail= to make it seamless and automatic.

Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one = of the most common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches = dynamic address assignment from a pool and reallocates the same address to = the same authenticated user if they disconnect and then reconnect to the sa= me BRAS.

Most ISPs seem = to like a very small number of very large BRASes (unlike me) at a service a= ggregation point, so the likelihood of being assigned the same IPv4 address= across disconnect/reconnect goes up.

If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the = same IPv4 address for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and = their BRAS uptime.

If th= ere is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a very simi= lar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have had for the l= ast 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband became available. = I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just observing that it has been= an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long time.
Regards,
Mark=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">


Lee


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/v6ops
--00000000000005c5b0057a261b69-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 04:27:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5C0130EB8 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g3hPA4iEC8on for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D27E0130EB2 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01DF41C13 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:27:44 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14F341C0F; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:27:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id D1D0433477; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:27:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:27:44 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Mark Smith Cc: Lee Howard , v6ops list Message-ID: <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:27:50 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 11:08:57PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote: > I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means the > ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't need to > at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of > permanent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium > for. Indeed. And I think "stable" is not something desirable in the long run, because it leads to hardwiring IPv6 addresses in lots of places - and then, if it has to be changed one day (like "the cable plant being split into two, new prefix for half the customers") unhappiness ensues. This is why I think that either you want *static*, or should avoid the impression of a prefix being "stable", whatever that means. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Nov 8 04:55:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A34B130E46 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:55:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nLedcvhpNWd for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 188FB129619 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:55:42 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wA8Bt7K4056759 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:55:08 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8] claimed to be cupcake.local To: Gert Doering Cc: v6ops list References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:55:39 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:55:46 -0000 Gert Doering wrote on 08/11/2018 12:27: > This is why I think that either you want*static*, or should avoid the > impression of a prefix being "stable", whatever that means. this usually works by being "mostly static". I.e. the provider will assign a prefix which will probably remain static over reasonably long times, but they don't commit to anything. The benefit to the user is that they don't get the annoyance of having prefixes changes every hour or day, and the provider gets the benefit of being to attach the customers to prefix pools with loose binding, which allows efficient dynamic assignment. As Steiner hinted, there is no need to actively aggravate users. If you do this, they will vote with the wallet and move to service providers which don't actively aggravate them, and end up with the impression that the cause of the aggravation is ipv6 rather than the service provider. Nick From nobody Thu Nov 8 05:48:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71257129619 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:48:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ohHB9LiPP5jd for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0656128B14 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCB8E607B; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:48:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:48:22 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20181108.144822.146188704.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: nick@foobar.org Cc: gert@space.net, v6ops@ietf.org From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> References: <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 26 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:48:28 -0000 >> This is why I think that either you want*static*, or should avoid the >> impression of a prefix being "stable", whatever that means. > > this usually works by being "mostly static". I.e. the provider will > assign a prefix which will probably remain static over reasonably long > times, but they don't commit to anything. The benefit to the user is > that they don't get the annoyance of having prefixes changes every > hour or day, and the provider gets the benefit of being to attach the > customers to prefix pools with loose binding, which allows efficient > dynamic assignment. In one sense, I agree with what has been expressed earlier - most users don't know and don't care. However, a rather vocal minority explicitly wants stable ("mostly static") IP addresses, which makes it easier for them to run servers and similar. "Mostly static" is fine, and they normally don't want to pay extra to have a *real* static IP. I have so far not heard from any users explicitly wanting addresses that change on a regular basis. Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Thu Nov 8 05:52:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAA6129619 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:51:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l614wQM3RNnj for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2DB1126CB6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:51:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150F841C36 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:51:56 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B1140D75; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:51:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id EC76133A70; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:51:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:51:55 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: nick@foobar.org, gert@space.net, v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108135155.GG11393@Space.Net> References: <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> <20181108.144822.146188704.sthaug@nethelp.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T1wyZ4WIFtkpPRfx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181108.144822.146188704.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:52:00 -0000 --T1wyZ4WIFtkpPRfx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:48:22PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > I have so far not heard from any users explicitly wanting addresses > that change on a regular basis. =46rom how many users have you heard that ask for *any* sort of IPv6 addresses? Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --T1wyZ4WIFtkpPRfx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlvkP3kACgkQ31bAZeTO f8WkQA//SDVABFJTjHbpD2edU6QdyFJwnTYcxmxstIHIp7CuL0ZQS8jxxgSUWG9K 6YkRXms+QP/vHycFMZTS04GcjnasBIR5szH6M17Uvzobhy8fGnLzKiegPWjdOk+N 6Lq8FXne8cx4z6+RuusfGpOzQwMaohp5y9vp1GfJJmNdvsoBdBXVX8oYMnFtZINz J2f+Cqk5AllioZct/8ujUhkoAEwtSOvLB657NSYf0hyUnfis3bxCDRi8vcDUku7s tdRHZEXv9/VtBKzs8uTG1MGPpKaiyUPvrNoFB5tucqUDbuNig+usHFJiwITSiROS 0vOfQXEHIcf6mbjs2Vco5DGMUtNv7ypvq/GSr0GSK9250d4KX8xFhDaoDR0ZK8Kp GEmcMmyOvCYtvCwqj1LwzlSzHs62DCqJgQ29BgLi2kmJ7ll0ZfGRq6VKQs8EqgTi gnjp/PhKHMCfh0j6JfebzIGJj7MPQ2IV/YarC3wZKB7mvDdL/0CZHsJIx+hoqZNr 4qSYzqTMqt4PGMY6W4OOPVk5WUvWSLg9PeMLBACYxb/TCmToGaM/L/gS/zuMuV5s AAZpHl9AzIv2ueHlI4FONnWPxLhUuXupHSAVj/b8LJfjVWae8A0HhBVq2B4FELG2 ZQRfOOw+zjszlNKUa1KWlrrGO43OOVUfqNraPtwHE1+ueIC16JI= =9KHU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T1wyZ4WIFtkpPRfx-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 06:12:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E161126BED for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:12:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwHvU6Xen77f for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.theapt.org (gir.theapt.org [IPv6:2001:67c:12f4::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89825129619 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gir.theapt.org (gir.theapt.org [IPv6:2001:67c:12f4::2]) by mail.theapt.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 8c10665b (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256:NO) for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:12:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:12:35 +0100 From: Peter Hessler To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181108141234.GT53070@gir.theapt.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> <9ddd5065-79b2-46d3-f2fa-ba01660ac7bf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9ddd5065-79b2-46d3-f2fa-ba01660ac7bf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:12:44 -0000 On 2018 Nov 08 (Thu) at 12:39:14 +0100 (+0100), Alexandre Petrescu wrote: :Le 07/11/2018 à 23:05, Fred Baker a écrit : :> :> :> > On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:27 AM, Templin (US), Fred L :> > wrote: :> > :> > The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional :> > messages in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the :> > protocol itself. :> > :> > It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a :> > single unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives :> > within the RS/RA messages. :> > :> > Thanks - Fred :> :> Well, all autoconfguration *is* done using one message - the RA. But :> prefixes are not auto-configured. : :This makes think what you want is to make prefix autoconfiguration like :address allocation, in SLAAC; the equivalent is plen==56 in RA and a 'subnet :ID' to be formed by the Host between positions 56 and 64, "out of thin air". : If one is using SOII identifiers (RFC7217), then it is trivial. Simply use the plen instead of hardcoding 64. :None of this does exists either (SLAAC works only with plen 64 because IID :must be 64, and Subnet IDs are not formed out of thin air). : Untrue. SLAAC with SOII works quite well on non-64 networks. You could also use other methods to generate IIDs, the eui64 method is simply a popular one. :> RFC 7695, to give a network the :> ability to distribute /64s within a prefix allocated to it, makes :> sense (alrthough it is limited to /64s, based on the idea that it is :> distributing minimal prefixes to LANs) make sense to me. : :Limited to /64. : :> But :> autoconfiguration using a SLAAC-like algorithm doesn't make sense in :> my mind, because autoconfiguration of a prefix means more than "pick :> a number out of the air". : :_Could_ be like that "pick a number out of the air", if a document described :it and implementation did it. : :(it's not what this draft describes now). : :Alex :> :> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :> :> :Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, :> Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu :> :> : :_______________________________________________ :v6ops mailing list :v6ops@ietf.org :https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- BE ALERT!!!! (The world needs more lerts ...) From nobody Thu Nov 8 06:20:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D12128D68 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UrOIxWaxJDi4 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA67126CB6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0C7E607B; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:20:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:20:09 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20181108.152009.146524468.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: gert@space.net Cc: nick@foobar.org, v6ops@ietf.org From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20181108135155.GG11393@Space.Net> References: <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> <20181108.144822.146188704.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20181108135155.GG11393@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 26 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:20:15 -0000 >> I have so far not heard from any users explicitly wanting addresses >> that change on a regular basis. > > From how many users have you heard that ask for *any* sort of IPv6 > addresses? Probably too few to make it a statistically valid sample. But these users certainly exist, and I've heard from at least some of them... Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Thu Nov 8 06:47:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AC6126CB6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XHdeKAsf-O9O for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD60E12872C for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 06:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8El29W015512 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:47:02 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C7759205D09 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:47:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBD7205CFE for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:47:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8El2Gt012427 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:47:02 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> <9ddd5065-79b2-46d3-f2fa-ba01660ac7bf@gmail.com> <20181108141234.GT53070@gir.theapt.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:47:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181108141234.GT53070@gir.theapt.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:47:08 -0000 Le 08/11/2018 à 15:12, Peter Hessler a écrit : > On 2018 Nov 08 (Thu) at 12:39:14 +0100 (+0100), Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > :Le 07/11/2018 à 23:05, Fred Baker a écrit : > :> > :> > :> > On Nov 8, 2018, at 1:27 AM, Templin (US), Fred L > :> > wrote: > :> > > :> > The only drawback with DHCPv6 PD is that it requires additional > :> > messages in addition to RS/RA; there is nothing wrong with the > :> > protocol itself. > :> > > :> > It would be better if all autoconfiguration could be conducted in a > :> > single unified message exchange by including DHCPv6 PD directives > :> > within the RS/RA messages. > :> > > :> > Thanks - Fred > :> > :> Well, all autoconfguration *is* done using one message - the RA. But > :> prefixes are not auto-configured. > : > :This makes think what you want is to make prefix autoconfiguration like > :address allocation, in SLAAC; the equivalent is plen==56 in RA and a 'subnet > :ID' to be formed by the Host between positions 56 and 64, "out of thin air". > : > > If one is using SOII identifiers (RFC7217), then it is trivial. Simply > use the plen instead of hardcoding 64. In principle yes, it is trivial to form an address out of a prefix from the RA, and with a parameterized len SOII (Semantically Opaque Interface IDs), using that RFC 7217. There is implementation for it in BSD. However, what is less trivial, and that for several reasons, is to form a prefix (not an address) out of a prefix from the RA, plus a Subnet ID of length L, and without SOII. In other words: Self-formed-prefix = prefix-in-RA + SubnetID and without Interface ID. > :None of this does exists either (SLAAC works only with plen 64 because IID > :must be 64, and Subnet IDs are not formed out of thin air). > : > > Untrue. SLAAC with SOII works quite well on non-64 networks. You could > also use other methods to generate IIDs, the eui64 method is simply a > popular one. Agreed on both points: SLAAC with SOII works ok on non-64 networks and you could also use other methods to generate IIDs. Alex > :> RFC 7695, to give a network the > :> ability to distribute /64s within a prefix allocated to it, makes > :> sense (alrthough it is limited to /64s, based on the idea that it is > :> distributing minimal prefixes to LANs) make sense to me. > : > :Limited to /64. > : > :> But > :> autoconfiguration using a SLAAC-like algorithm doesn't make sense in > :> my mind, because autoconfiguration of a prefix means more than "pick > :> a number out of the air". > : > :_Could_ be like that "pick a number out of the air", if a document described > :it and implementation did it. > : > :(it's not what this draft describes now). > : > :Alex > :> > :> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > :> > :> > :Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, > :> Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu > :> > :> > : > :_______________________________________________ > :v6ops mailing list > :v6ops@ietf.org > :https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Thu Nov 8 07:15:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A063C128CE4 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:15:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FZxbktDpmKf for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62551128BCC for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail01pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.209]) by atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wA8FEnlI010575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:14:50 -0500 Received: (qmail 31039 invoked by uid 0); 8 Nov 2018 15:14:49 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 68.100.71.215 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.135?) (lee@asgard.org@68.100.71.215) by 0 with ESMTPA; 8 Nov 2018 15:14:49 -0000 To: Mark Smith Cc: v6ops list References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:14:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B581FAB25AAC4A04F7D001DC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:15:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B581FAB25AAC4A04F7D001DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/8/18 7:08 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > Hi Lee, > > On Thu., 8 Nov. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard wrote: > > > On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with > IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do > that. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the > prefix is persistent ... > Thanks for making some technical points, as someone who worked at an ISP. . . > > > > The only issue is route aggregation. > > With stable home broadband connections, you're not going to get a lot > of route churn, so your need for aggregation is driven by conserving > route table slots, rather than load caused by route flaps. (BGP > assumed ...) > > If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stability without > guaranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical area were > stability is provided. > > If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix. If > the customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different > stable prefix. Not just "the customer moved" but "you moved the customer." Sometimes you get more users than one provider edge box can handle, and you have to move them to another edge box. What happens then? The modem interface might blink, but that doesn't tell the router that anything happened. So it doesn't request a new prefix, and keeps using the one it had before. But the new PE box doesn't have a route for it, because there was no DHCPv6 exchange to snoop/glean. Even if you (or the customer, hopefully not after a call) bounce the home router, the new PE box installs a route, but how does the old box know to delete its route? You said "if you do need to aggregate," but you always do, if you have more than a few thousand customers. Nobody wants ten million customer prefixes in their network. Really, nobody wants ten thousand prefixes in their IGP. Really, nobody wants to maintain a table of ten million assigned prefixes, to be queried with every DHCPv6 request. The initial population of that table, and lookups, and moves/add/changes/deletions, requires a bit of automation that has no ROI. If I ran an ISP, I would not want to spend a lot of time developing features to retain my most expensive customers. > > I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means > the ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't > need to at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the > guarantee of permanent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer > pays the premium for. > I've tried to avoid saying "static prefix" because it's easily confused with "static route." I've generally said "persistent prefix" to mean that doesn't change (your "static"), and only referred to the relative stability or persistence of a prefix for one that may change. > > This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and > it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. > > > If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways > to work > with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that > there's > a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies > that > will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or > defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to > define. > > > If it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want > changing prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than > done, which is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed > every 24 hours suggests to me they may not have much understanding of > what that would entail to make it seamless and automatic. > > Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one of the > most common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches > dynamic address assignment from a pool and reallocates the same > address to the same authenticated user if they disconnect and then > reconnect to the same BRAS. > > Most ISPs seem to like a very small number of very large BRASes > (unlike me) at a service aggregation point, so the likelihood of being > assigned the same IPv4 address across disconnect/reconnect goes up. > > If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the same IPv4 > address for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and their > BRAS uptime. > > If there is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a > very similar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have > had for the last 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband > became available. I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just > observing that it has been an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long > time. This is a strong argument. My motivations are not so much to protect privacy (I'd like a privacy expert to explain the threat relative to other issues, considering how effective fingerprinting and cookies are) as the operational issues above. But I also have an architectural principle that an IP address is a network locator and host identifier, just a set of integers, and relying on them not changing is ossifying the network. RFC7010 "IPv6 Site Renumbering Gap Analysis" lists the stuff that needs to happen when a prefix changes. In short, it's how to notify everything of changes, updating DNS, firewall/ACL/policy stuff, and miscellaneous config bits. If DHCPv6 Reconfigure was supported and it was obvious how to declare a dDNS server, using wildcards for prefixes in firewalls and DHCP servers gets you 90% of the way there. Lee --------------B581FAB25AAC4A04F7D001DC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 11/8/18 7:08 AM, Mark Smith wrote:


Hi Lee,

On Thu., 8 Nov. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard <lee@asgard.org wrote:

On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ...
Thanks for making some technical points, as someone who worked at an ISP. . .



The only issue is route aggregation. 

With stable home broadband connections, you're not going to get a lot of route churn, so your need for aggregation is driven by conserving route table slots, rather than load caused by route flaps. (BGP assumed ...)

If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stability without guaranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical area were stability is provided.

If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix. If the customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different stable prefix.

Not just "the customer moved" but "you moved the customer." Sometimes you get more users than one provider edge box can handle, and you have to move them to another edge box.

What happens then? The modem interface might blink, but that doesn't tell the router that anything happened. So it doesn't request a new prefix, and keeps using the one it had before. But the new PE box doesn't have a route for it, because there was no DHCPv6 exchange to snoop/glean. Even if you (or the customer, hopefully not after a call) bounce the home router, the new PE box installs a route, but how does the old box know to delete its route?


You said "if you do need to aggregate," but you always do, if you have more than a few thousand customers. Nobody wants ten million customer prefixes in their network. Really, nobody wants ten thousand prefixes in their IGP.

Really, nobody wants to maintain a table of ten million assigned prefixes, to be queried with every DHCPv6 request. The initial population of that table, and lookups, and moves/add/changes/deletions, requires a bit of automation that has no ROI. If I ran an ISP, I would not want to spend a lot of time developing features to retain my most expensive customers.



I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means the ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't need to at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of permanent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium for.

I've tried to avoid saying "static prefix" because it's easily confused with "static route." I've generally said "persistent prefix" to mean that doesn't change (your "static"), and only referred to the relative stability or persistence of a prefix for one that may change.




This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and
it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is.


If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work
with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there's
a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that
will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or
defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define.

If it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want changing prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than done, which is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed every 24 hours suggests to me they may not have much understanding of what that would entail to make it seamless and automatic.

Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one of the most common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches dynamic address assignment from a pool and reallocates the same address to the same authenticated user if they disconnect and then reconnect to the same BRAS.

Most ISPs seem to like a very small number of very large BRASes (unlike me) at a service aggregation point, so the likelihood of being assigned the same IPv4 address across disconnect/reconnect goes up.

If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the same IPv4 address for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and their BRAS uptime.

If there is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a very similar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have had for the last 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband became available. I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just observing that it has been an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long time.

This is a strong argument. My motivations are not so much to protect privacy (I'd like a privacy expert to explain the threat relative to other issues, considering how effective fingerprinting and cookies are) as the operational issues above.

But I also have an architectural principle that an IP address is a network locator and host identifier, just a set of integers, and relying on them not changing is ossifying the network.

RFC7010 "IPv6 Site Renumbering Gap Analysis" lists the stuff that needs to happen when a prefix changes. In short, it's how to notify everything of changes, updating DNS, firewall/ACL/policy stuff, and miscellaneous config bits. If DHCPv6 Reconfigure was supported and it was obvious how to declare a dDNS server, using wildcards for prefixes in firewalls and DHCP servers gets you 90% of the way there.

Lee --------------B581FAB25AAC4A04F7D001DC-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 07:28:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA77128CF2 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:28:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXfr8pDWNusB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob20.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob20.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5D9128BCC for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail03pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.211]) by atl4mhob20.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wA8FSpTO018560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:28:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 3824 invoked by uid 0); 8 Nov 2018 15:28:51 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 68.100.71.215 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.135?) (lee@asgard.org@68.100.71.215) by 0 with ESMTPA; 8 Nov 2018 15:28:50 -0000 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> <20181108122744.GB11393@Space.Net> <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:28:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20ba5d1d-8584-8f62-0d0c-d1978988bb57@foobar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:28:55 -0000 On 11/8/18 7:55 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Gert Doering wrote on 08/11/2018 12:27: >> This is why I think that either you want*static*, or should avoid the >> impression of a prefix being "stable", whatever that means. > > this usually works by being "mostly static".   I.e. the provider will > assign a prefix which will probably remain static over reasonably long > times, but they don't commit to anything.  The benefit to the user is > that they don't get the annoyance of having prefixes changes every > hour or day, and the provider gets the benefit of being to attach the > customers to prefix pools with loose binding, which allows efficient > dynamic assignment. I agree that users shouldn't have to do something to their network every time their prefix changes. I think it's more sensible to build a dynamic network than to expect it to remain static. > > As Steiner hinted, there is no need to actively aggravate users. If > you do this, they will vote with the wallet and move to service > providers which don't actively aggravate them, If this is your concern, then I propose we let ISPs and users sort it out between themselves. I am very frustrated with people at the IETF trying to force protocol changes into their ISPs. The IETF is not the place to mediate conflicts between users and ISPs. Lee > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 8 08:01:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CE51286E7; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:00:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iAt1I6zFpLCI; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44FDA128BCC; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8G0gpl062819; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:00:42 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id CE9C1205DF4; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:00:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACB6205E10; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:00:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wA8G0gZt028837; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:00:42 +0100 To: Ole Troan Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <835f0ba4-caee-ae44-6931-03eb547c5aa2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:00:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 16:00:56 -0000 Le 07/11/2018 à 10:29, Ole Troan a écrit : >>> We have been down this road before with >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 >>> Which is what led to RFC3633. >>> Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that don’t implement DHCP PD? >> >> For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not implement DHCPv6 PD. > > And I’m sure platforms that will not implement this… > DHCPv6 PD is just a wire format specified between a requesting router and a delegating router directly connected. In principle yes: DHCPv6-PD just a different wire format than doing PD in SLAAC-PD. However, the IETF Best Current Practice RFC7934 clearly recommends SLAAC at a premium, against DHCP, in order to deliver more addresses to Hosts. As such, it is difficult to understand that PD be it in SLAAC or in DHCP is just a different wire format. Were it to be just a different wire format then that RFC would at least _some_ times put DHCP before SLAAC (currently that RFC puts always SLAAC first in its recommendations). > If you cannot implement that, it’s going to be hard to justify implementing the exact same, just with different naming. Rather than politicizing, we would ask the implementer whether it is easy for her/him to make an update to the Gateway that implements this draft. Alex > > Ole > >>> Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, rather than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented yet. >>> Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? >>> Cheers, >>> Ole >>>> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form doesn't offer following services like: >>>> >>>> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or downstream routers). >>>> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. >>>> >>>> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. >>>> >>>> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? >>>> >>>> Thanks & Regards, >>>> Naveen >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>> From: >>>> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM >>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> To: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to the >>>> IETF repository. >>>> >>>> Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management >>>> Revision: 00 >>>> Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management >>>> Document date: 2018-11-06 >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 15 >>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ >>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 >>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management >>>> >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) provides a >>>> provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address and >>>> manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration >>>> (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of >>>> DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not use >>>> features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, >>>> renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document >>>> proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit >>>> prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like >>>> renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing any >>>> new ICMPv6 message or option types. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>> >>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > From nobody Thu Nov 8 08:06:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86775131060; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:06:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V18ezlnqKIY6; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E28D130DF4; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wA8G6j3B049429; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:06:45 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wA8G6hvZ049418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:06:43 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:06:42 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 08:06:42 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fred Baker CC: Alexandre Petrescu , Ole Troan , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUdjVRDj+CiE9WP0u+rCSufpeHWKVEdX8AgAAXuICAAGPMgP//rIbggADIIgD//4U94IAAnsCAgAB/c+A= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 16:06:42 +0000 Message-ID: <6f6d1d3674bb4cb59f051730722ef037@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <3647EBF7-A28A-4126-A3B5-F5080C42FEFA@gmail.com> <6eb02f36523647878de06800bea8d81b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <09223654-86EF-4E90-A81D-9BA0E0E8D774@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09223654-86EF-4E90-A81D-9BA0E0E8D774@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 3BD88A61624EFDA7E45064DCF8667D482CAA71884E8FD99A8E15481A79760B492000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 16:06:52 -0000 Hi Fred, Including the DHCPv6 option does not make the RS/RA exchange more complex. If the router receiving the RS does not recognize the DHCPv6 option it simp= ly ignores the option and returns an RA without including a DHCPv6 option. If the rout= er *does* recognize the DHCPv6 option, it statelessly relays the message to the DHCPv= 6 server which does what a DHCPv6 server is designed to do. The router then sends th= e corresponding RA back as unicast as permitted by RFC4861. The fact that the IPv6 ND and DHCPv6 information are included in the same R= S/RA containers is a good thing. It is a single message exchange with a single r= ound-trip instead of multiple - a unified service. And, the benefit is not limited to= corner cases but is good for any sort of links. Thanks - Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2018 4:14 PM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Alexandre Petrescu ; Ole Troan ; 6man WG ; v6ops > list > Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 > For clarity, my participation in this thread is sans hats. I usually say = that, and neglected doing so. >=20 > > On Nov 8, 2018, at 5:50 AM, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > > but the idea is to leverage the RS/RA exchange to also facilitate prefi= x delegation by > > embedding DHCPv6 protocol messages within the RS/RA. >=20 > And that makes some sense. I have been an advocate for a while of a mecha= nism that would allow any DHCP configuration element to > exist in an RA for the purposes of stateless configuration without having= to reinvent the information element, which for a set of things > is sensible. >=20 > The problem with it in this case is that it presumes that the RA is sent = to an individual station and represents an allocation that the > station needs and is expecting. In other words, if it is delegating a pre= fix to a given station, it can't be multicast; it has to be a unicast > response to an RS. RA's are in fact often multicast. In this case, the fa= ct that it is embedded in the RA is pretty much pointless; it is in > fact a DHCP exchange with a different container, and we have used a state= less configuration mechanism statefully. We have taken an > existing, working, mechanism and made it more complex because a certain i= mplementor has an issue with DHCP that other > implementors don't seem to have. >=20 > That seems like a strange solution. If you want to do something stateful,= don't use a stateless protocol. If a unicast exchange is called > for (the reason for the RS is that a new station on the network needs con= figuration now as opposed to "up to seven minutes from > now", and can trigger the same message it would get periodically, but upo= n request). If you want to execute the function of a protocol > to obtain a stateful delegation, don't embed the protocol in another prot= ocol that is stateless. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an i= nteresting comment on projected traffic volume... 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Kottapalli Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:02:19 +0530 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe715d057a2a9e02" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:32:43 -0000 --000000000000fe715d057a2a9e02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Fred, Please find comments inline. Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 08:08, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Naveen Kottapalli > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form > doesn't offer following services like: > > > > 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of > either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or non > /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or > downstream routers). > > SLAAC doesn't "solicit" anything. If you want a prefix with any specific > attributes, you're in the territory of RFC 3633. > Naveen] SLAAC as a protocol doesn't solicit anything. It's the devices requirement to solicit something using SLAAC as a messaging system. Am not sure why would soliciting anything would be under RFC3633 territory. Take the example of a gateway where when a device move from one tunnel to other, the device context in the gateway is removed and recreated. When this happens, there is no guarantee that the device gets the same prefix that it is using till mobility. Unless the same prefix is received, all the existing data sessions that are open in the device has to close and reestablish. > > > 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This > could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to make > the unused prefixes available for other nodes. > > SLAAC doesn't do *anything* with prefixes. > Naveen] It is the device's graceful action to release the prefix that it got through RA. It is through SLAAC message system this is conveyed to the router to free the resources allocated for the device. > > > To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is > introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without > introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. > > > > Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? > > My first thought is that a 2001 draft is a bit long in the tooth. Was it > really posted in June 2001? > > The second is that "autoconfiguration" is a bit different than anything > that one might solicit from or release to a network. For example, with > addresses, routing is handled by the router that advertised the prefix in > its RA (and maybe by other routers); when one solicits and starts to use a > prefix, one needs to advertise it in routing, which means that one is going > to need to implement and advertise some routing protocol. > > Third - L2TP is a bit dated. Maybe that's the reason for the 2001 date on > the draft. A 2013 article ( > https://www.networkworld.com/article/2163334/tech-primers/what-can-l2tp-do-for-your-network-.html) > calls it "unusual". What is your use case? What are you trying to achieve? > Naveen] My use case is like this. We are a gateway vendor and our boxes are in field since last 4-5 years; we are going to have our own CPEs which connect to our gateway boxes. These CPEs are pre-programmed with the number of devices that they support in downstream side. And when these CPEs come up, they get the prefix that has to be delegated over to downstream nodes. As of now there is no support for doing DHCPv6 PD on the CPEs. Also, since last 4-5 years no requirement came from our existing customers who are extensively using our gateways to support DHCPv6-PD. --000000000000fe715d057a2a9e02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Fred,

Please find comments inline= .

Yours,
Naveen.


On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 08:= 08, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ie= tf@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>
> Hello,
>
> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form d= oesn't offer following services like:
>
> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length.=C2=A0 The length could be o= f either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or no= n /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or downs= tream routers).

SLAAC doesn't "solicit" anything. If you want a prefix with a= ny specific attributes, you're in the territory of RFC 3633.
Naveen] SLAAC as a protocol doesn't solicit anything.=C2=A0 = It's the devices requirement to solicit something using SLAAC as a mess= aging system.=C2=A0 Am not sure why would soliciting anything would be unde= r RFC3633 territory.=C2=A0 Take the example of a gateway where when a devic= e move from one tunnel to other, the device context in the gateway is remov= ed and recreated.=C2=A0 When this happens, there is no guarantee that the d= evice gets the same prefix that it is using till mobility.=C2=A0 Unless the= same prefix is received, all the existing data sessions that are open in t= he device has to close and reestablish.

> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device.=C2=A0 T= his could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to m= ake the unused prefixes available for other nodes.

SLAAC doesn't do *anything* with prefixes.
Naveen]= It is the device's graceful action to release the prefix that it got t= hrough RA.=C2=A0 It is through SLAAC message system this is conveyed to the= router to free the resources allocated for the device.

> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is introd= uced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without introducin= g any new message types or new option types or flag types.
>
> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft?

My first thought is that a 2001 draft is a bit long in the tooth. Was it re= ally posted in June 2001?

The second is that "autoconfiguration" is a bit different than an= ything that one might solicit from or release to a network. For example, wi= th addresses, routing is handled by the router that advertised the prefix i= n its RA (and maybe by other routers); when one solicits and starts to use = a prefix, one needs to advertise it in routing, which means that one is goi= ng to need to implement and advertise some routing protocol.

Third - L2TP is a bit dated. Maybe that's the reason for the 2001 date = on the draft. A 2013 article (https://www.networkworld.com/article/2163334/tec= h-primers/what-can-l2tp-do-for-your-network-.html) calls it "unusu= al". What is your use case? What are you trying to achieve?

Naveen] My use case is like this.=C2=A0 We are a = gateway vendor and our boxes are in field since last 4-5 years; we are goin= g to have our own CPEs which connect to our gateway boxes.=C2=A0 These CPEs= are pre-programmed with the number of devices that they support in downstr= eam side.=C2=A0 And when these CPEs come up, they get the prefix that has t= o be delegated over to downstream nodes.=C2=A0 As of now there is no suppor= t for doing DHCPv6 PD on the CPEs.=C2=A0 Also, since last 4-5 years no requ= irement came from our existing customers who are extensively using our gate= ways to support DHCPv6-PD.
--000000000000fe715d057a2a9e02-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 09:39:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C365130F6C; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gzE-MDvJkC5p; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DFA512F295; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id p86so14829120lfg.5; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:39:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fqw+tHx5tmk8Aus+0UL6DwhCF1hIHGE8ug6+xF9OomE=; b=Dir+JT+p4jEcnAJaVrA09Heu4NQJcB8tm5gjHzceb8Csi8562eEs7idcUk2WMtTEYi zpwATrREbTRh6/o3ZZV+cQztiLjpF+IwykfsbF34W73XP0kk/dK/376UD3JAxHq7NcpW n+P5do3MNyQ4cSeJoG2twk2uby0qGGPvTFwvfeCFOo0V8fj7zRAzIo1ASzV2izEvIhNv Q1egq8DByieQ/fQN5OQS5J6DLUvuXulC1lfyNxdrtr/GS80lD3X1elxQS7i/+Xk47SBf W1Cge2BPA4mpkXMskhjl5Yejdsj/5Q1nWKr8arjSAUv2NO8AwJAxCPYhaZO3u2ee0GGP neGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fqw+tHx5tmk8Aus+0UL6DwhCF1hIHGE8ug6+xF9OomE=; b=mKbkqNj7rDM0SeFPmmBYE25m4l7ejI6jFkEAFMxuKtmRc0YJ8aMXffc7SK5RwJBzVl y26/euhuqiLtFfO7SElW8Tou7w4uDD82ZUS5wgtn1I9VF1AfmDx6vFj/m1F0mbuAzJun AGJPXv0awrPYcjIzkKzdMIynRpmciVG/vcmARBzN/9tF6z0ITNvACHEKjN3K7oJDfE8B i6v2JrZCciMnv+Q/ZXufE7Q87fb/Nl1hjJPjml739rfjdybU6koeV/heGnSyUk0Ksdkl xrKdpmd63HqXdGIVjk6c2Wc+KJPykvn3BvhWQv0taMlC4agPNvVbkqzEwlwlpW3ii8sJ tJPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKU2rYJ2CjCY+McYBcKZkKRiUK2hqLgMLaaA8BZ2X8mwtGPyAhC hee17wvNe8RPrYt+1hv7tmZMn3iX+i1zVNh97wKXoQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fy4jgQVRAkG0ZiioPisAuGKVfXSM+ciqUz4b2aPkStjC6RgBsZZwTsfVSZrXSLwIptOW9cjgycQoae8bEDnUM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d857:: with SMTP id p84mr3255783lfg.44.1541698743286; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:39:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:08:45 +0530 Message-ID: To: otroan@employees.org Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1c6f0057a2ab505" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:39:08 -0000 --000000000000f1c6f0057a2ab505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ole, I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am sure it would consume more resources at router to support DHCPv6 as a whole along with SLAAC. Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 14:59, Ole Troan wrote: > >> We have been down this road before with > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 > >> Which is what led to RFC3633. > >> Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that > don=E2=80=99t implement DHCP PD? > > > > For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not > implement DHCPv6 PD. > > And I=E2=80=99m sure platforms that will not implement this=E2=80=A6 > DHCPv6 PD is just a wire format specified between a requesting router and > a delegating router directly connected. > If you cannot implement that, it=E2=80=99s going to be hard to justify > implementing the exact same, just with different naming. > > Ole > > >> Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, rather > than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented yet. > >> Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? > >> Cheers, > >> Ole > >>> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current form > doesn't offer following services like: > >>> > >>> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of > either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or no= n > /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or > downstream routers). > >>> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. This > could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix to mak= e > the unused prefixes available for other nodes. > >>> > >>> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is > introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without > introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. > >>> > >>> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >>> From: > >>> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM > >>> Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> To: Naveen Kottapalli > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to th= e > >>> IETF repository. > >>> > >>> Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management > >>> Revision: 00 > >>> Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management > >>> Document date: 2018-11-06 > >>> Group: Individual Submission > >>> Pages: 15 > >>> URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management= -00.txt > >>> Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ > >>> Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 > >>> Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-managemen= t > >>> > >>> > >>> Abstract: > >>> The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) provides= a > >>> provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address and > >>> manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address AutoConfiguration > >>> (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of > >>> DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to not u= se > >>> features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and lifetime, > >>> renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document > >>> proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to solicit > >>> prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like > >>> renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing an= y > >>> new ICMPv6 message or option types. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >>> > >>> The IETF Secretariat > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> v6ops mailing list > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --000000000000f1c6f0057a2ab505 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ole,

I agree to some extent that = DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more resourc= es at router to support DHCPv6 as a whole along with SLAAC.

Yours,
Naveen.

<= /div>

On Wed, 7 Nov 20= 18 at 14:59, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>> We have been down this road before with
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02
>> Which is what led to RFC3633.
>> Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms tha= t don=E2=80=99t implement DHCP PD?
>
> For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not i= mplement DHCPv6 PD.

And I=E2=80=99m sure platforms that will not implement this=E2=80=A6
DHCPv6 PD is just a wire format specified between a requesting router and a= delegating router directly connected.
If you cannot implement that, it=E2=80=99s going to be hard to justify impl= ementing the exact same, just with different naming.

Ole

>> Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, ra= ther than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented yet. >> Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this?
>> Cheers,
>> Ole
>>> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its curren= t form doesn't offer following services like:
>>>
>>> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length.=C2=A0 The length co= uld be of either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by node= s) or non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE = or downstream routers).
>>> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device.= =C2=A0 This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the pre= fix to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes.
>>>
>>> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol i= s introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without in= troducing any new message types or new option types or flag types.
>>>
>>> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft?
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefi= x-management-00.txt
>>> To: Naveen Kottapalli <nkottapalli@benu.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.= txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and poste= d to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management
>>> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
>>> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 Stateless Prefix= Management
>>> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-11-06
>>> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission=
>>> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15
>>> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts= /draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management/
>>> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-manag= ement-00
>>> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-s= laac-prefix-management
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 = (DHCPv6) provides a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provision for the hosts to request for a specific= IPv6 address and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address Au= toConfiguration
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision.=C2=A0 = Also, unavailability of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IP= v6 nodes to not use
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 features like soliciting a prefix of desired leng= th and lifetime,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc.=C2= =A0 This document
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC dev= ices to solicit
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other = methods like
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 renewing or releasing or declining a prefix witho= ut introducing any
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 new ICMPv6 message or option types.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time= of submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.= org.
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf= .org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<= /a>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org=
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<= br>
--000000000000f1c6f0057a2ab505-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 09:40:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAEC130FC4; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VbRO27fvka8F; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58670130FAC; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 09:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id g26-v6so18748274lja.10; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:40:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=b7wvHj8VHHkyHrK8LZETEB2RW0chX8lGhnohalOMV2Q=; b=BhTyiViC9EJFmwEpeJsK3qhSHGm29hbmLPyy5KTu4cjacoUD+bmfCLU1ZLJGtWZePW 3v6iU6lEVTmzFHYhmoRD7Fw/YoU1sgt3Q3qh+xNROVIn2H8xVxPEnTEbd/zQ5vffakCl S3z2h4XAZWiOqPXB6emVjMzg3WcssCqzldxeniE+y20HwiIO6lxKF8jZ42O1NwXg9uMC PfFduNSVH+J+/oYf76/2jN359Q09x9TSdree98ZF4wB70AOHG6/LItgwxxYQx2d/JiEK e+rJXt2Zii+Xo3Gn6FCRWaao2o74+jDMoaHYBjhXaT3nAl3syJ7sxywIi4dmJKtmUas+ AkOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b7wvHj8VHHkyHrK8LZETEB2RW0chX8lGhnohalOMV2Q=; b=tPCeucBzaj+pQyUF5gOpXneU7c+5rSvq7TaZEdLdxncHrX75n3rPgviePbjBt8up2g 3x4BtMFQLCnF+62s8gi43L2XLcpTJUg2Lzq//XFjKpMK93CKvciVrkmhq4k1E+CBWkAg fRZQtvdPWfDTM7HUi/e3JJdNvQvcOJKmtvGZ+3oo7C9g4tmXVzwszuyCyGXFgfVMOeJY oZSk61qqM/qX6biC2nqxjcnDT5HjTeGcDOJXC0Nk7Gd1dtsI/KSHlrssf2T01wx7AHKC 6W4s1a6WlaZQ+hH4w5SeNY9hAb+uMOK1VEUmIDUl2CAtozodhFS0vyFvuBMrlA+hoZRv Vsxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLAl9bko2aTGKEDKADCGkO9xmlnliygoGJZR6EE3oe8QpyOnnxa cNKoAaRLlZIUC5Np7dds+ltqVmDoqyLFRNcUIIWvfkEz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f5VIWr/hVfFoIoFDzWP8UY7t5ZdAt3EmKuozFB8h654MCr00PkwZ0psZ5sjqOyTtEOipiVMzNAqzZqEDnZ1ic= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:85d3:: with SMTP id h19-v6mr3342667ljj.82.1541698850409; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 09:40:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:10:32 +0530 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , otroan@employees.org, v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054545c057a2abce4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:40:55 -0000 --00000000000054545c057a2abce4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Fred, Prefixes gives liberty to devices to leverage on the number of address it can use. Similarly, prefixes eases the job of routers w.r.t routing. Am I wrong? Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 20:38, Fred Baker wrote: > > > On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Alexandre Petrescu < > alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not > implement DHCPv6 PD. > > That's their choice. Not everyone wants to use prefixes. Those that do > will figure out how to discuss the fact with the network. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an > interesting comment on projected traffic volume... > > --00000000000054545c057a2abce4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Fred,

Prefixes gives liberty to d= evices to leverage on the number of address it can use.=C2=A0 Similarly, pr= efixes eases the job of routers w.r.t routing.=C2=A0 Am I wrong?
=
Yours,
Naveen.


On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 20:38, Fred = Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.= com> wrote:


On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not i= mplement DHCPv6 PD.

That's their choice. Not everyone wants to use prefixes. Those that do = will figure out how to discuss the fact with the network.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

--00000000000054545c057a2abce4-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 11:39:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851D812D4E6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:39:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aTN-7cnw0ESO for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7EAA1293FB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id e22-v6so9752925pfn.8 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:39:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KaDK9dj8dwx6IoOAufWuh3w13+V/rnRj+a189L5dM8E=; b=kY0goLC4oQjIJftNsGVdJiORm2CpAKTKkhRW1b8CmnJm23IzwE7RiUzOTQVcUh9dP+ yPV2I7WoMlDYGPhChwiy3IuJ7V66RUVYn/hhACkmeWCrWWawxP/KUY+7W77gWsLJWcAR RqhR9mFefbZfzQKAVQqjK3l9GedXLqComjfoLGpwkY9yDFxd7l4a7w0HaKyO/n7HV6sY rRpTGToLTDCi/GLnX04YtsMOywRw2MmDxIeUzR+UjwABPTOR/12XVrAZleTAyRjEHumr K3iynen+H0AHAVyqPKiZh3zL7DUuVUeUP78GR5/F0D+Wy6xEcdXBxktsKa+9mV95axjr C5DQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KaDK9dj8dwx6IoOAufWuh3w13+V/rnRj+a189L5dM8E=; b=p98OFTgsZWpKQele5v9xSIFwEXo5yU+lQYgZAkgMw0JRwZZL1QIXu+3MXAPKK8PDKM NVLtvDazyARdSdh0ku591sdjZCQg7hJF2y9bejudXo4ImJ8ZwH0nutEThx6PhHnuK13b vi7uB7AOJc82u8SkGLCV/+J3rQjCWg26KRUCsKn//6ub5CUqwEBHocz9GtMR5jEeCPvN EG92XAsJyRkdslHvN2GmgIt2BNfx4zrxSeex+dU9yqaS5FLyvbk8VCsPSM6GjwjEgJAS g460aw+GoqhkCBhR/mWoAaBmLdLk38kRqW2wcoGPZkVCKI1iOperzHKV0zpRBzCwAvOW h/mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKzCWgiUr/b67dL+DrO6JegiwuwiPaZdOePRpKsk5Uj64uqqpA6 nG8hNa6iRMXEURn04p7Va3s108eL X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5di0aIb8lhzuguX+YJXvY7kU1V43ClyZNQSvGans7S8QXYiNuxfQLBsnwsUGgrZOm93OZgtRA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:6383:: with SMTP id x125-v6mr5765399pfb.13.1541705968752; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a17sm4860156pgm.26.2018.11.08.11.39.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:39:28 -0800 (PST) To: Florian Obser , Philip Homburg Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF1DFC6@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <19855BC7-F7BC-4422-B946-667DCA1D095D@consulintel.es> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DF2120B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <3273FFD2-4911-4056-B00A-B11E31CD0A5E@gmail.com> <4F33F58F-978A-40A1-8A07-5DD3F745BA85@consulintel.es> <20181108065512.rklpcng5x6vuw3re@imap.narrans.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4caeddfd-1ebb-7e41-0121-c6c1a508410b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:39:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181108065512.rklpcng5x6vuw3re@imap.narrans.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Rule 5.5 [SLAAC host moving between networks] X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 19:39:32 -0000 On 2018-11-08 19:55, Florian Obser wrote: > On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 07:30:56AM +0100, Philip Homburg wrote: >> It seems to me that it is just a small change in address selection, i.e. when >> comparing two prefixes and one is currently announced by a router and the >> other isn't, then pick the one that is announced. > > It's already in there, it's just optional: It's raised to a SHOULD for hosts following RFC 8028. Brian > > RFC 6724 Section 5: > > Rule 5.5: Prefer addresses in a prefix advertised by the next-hop. > If SA or SA's prefix is assigned by the selected next-hop that will > be used to send to D and SB or SB's prefix is assigned by a different > next-hop, then prefer SA. Similarly, if SB or SB's prefix is > assigned by the next-hop that will be used to send to D and SA or > SA's prefix is assigned by a different next-hop, then prefer SB. > Discussion: An IPv6 implementation is not required to remember > which next-hops advertised which prefixes. The conceptual models > of IPv6 hosts in Section 5 of [RFC4861] and Section 3 of [RFC4191] > have no such requirement. Hence, Rule 5.5 is only applicable to > implementations that track this information. > > Combine this with Neighbor Unreachability Detection (RFC 4861 Section > 7.3). > > My kernel is not tracking from which nexthop prefixes got advertised, > it doesn't even process RAs. > But I think I'll implement that, too, in addition to RFC 6059. > From nobody Thu Nov 8 18:42:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1E812D7F8 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:42:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BAKd0DDywwQ for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDD2C128D0C for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id s5so359690oth.7 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VmFqRnuwfTkAewPycNTdS/T845Y3E92SsXWBt6IwF6Y=; b=sM9jpNJJFjg+/iSD0ie0VtaW9GJ+Bbl+gsxd61R/q72tGg8P0K5Y8ukOelGinCzHkh yrblX2m9fIHoyMuc4zd0/Xtn3KtmbiDS1sFyL3ixzAplnOT62cVXleFnLHMtK4FwC/fz enZnqf9/rQNdqlmX+Kiqto1GEu8MwpgF1GJezqxENAP/Up/Q1QURoBEZ5D0WL1F+LbUy E6O2cqt3fobsSev3JGhOOJ98iLA+piEHowrNHILGXgYz3tmqT3PgSzTQ6NW/cFMzYXiN rWY7Tm9TurTlJAClD3SYpJZvc0IGuef/v0VbXDzWkK/wuFAw27vg07IDT7MzOLSJFcl7 A67w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VmFqRnuwfTkAewPycNTdS/T845Y3E92SsXWBt6IwF6Y=; b=jLdUvqDUW06S2k7UkJ3cflcvdL2Hk1FIrilqYpHC51vrGALsCSyDeHvIVRwIJ34l4C Lw77LS14Z58x5zktsUowGINt3g1nNs3OL4nkNyCngqcDbooNLZIe+dvb5nhc9mrgdqBl rBeBveUYh9SZo2wvkpFxAIy4/iWReqvX34FzK75neIQ/zM3Z28wUSrHTaKJDZ6/i42B0 LDEjYFaGbgQaQhMxJvILqgUZG/SdgsWVq+yY2Iq/+S7KLyVC/c1Z4UppYld93ZnaiAMQ 7dWRc/vPWZ4sJqnK9Urt9Y/yMV0fC70ip2KbjVjPr1Eb5f6poAmk1KiNd0VBiCShtyZm F5kA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJG4m7F/RRNuA4bg7Ysybgl/7QoRXoG4KatZZCU+i5mRX2bTaPF JDBdyrsdP4vOGBxi/PtmDaVlq3ONW1rdER3Wfb1hnQEO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dIf+TFkpT+A/tcqZP77ULzn/zOECTMTLyy5uM35b9TTKWV/bbjeyfAVF+BFgZfoJEuAPILT64/Y69jMaY/Eyc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7059:: with SMTP id x25mr4571051otj.35.1541731346890; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 18:42:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:41:59 +1100 Message-ID: To: Lee Howard Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 02:42:30 -0000 Hi Lee, On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 02:14, Lee Howard wrote: > > > On 11/8/18 7:08 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > Hi Lee, > > On Thu., 8 Nov. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard > >> >> On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6 the= re is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can also= offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... > > Thanks for making some technical points, as someone who worked at an ISP.= . . > > > > > The only issue is route aggregation. > > With stable home broadband connections, you're not going to get a lot of = route churn, so your need for aggregation is driven by conserving route tab= le slots, rather than load caused by route flaps. (BGP assumed ...) > > If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stability without gua= ranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical area were stabili= ty is provided. > > If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix. If the= customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different stable pref= ix. > > Not just "the customer moved" but "you moved the customer." Sometimes you= get more users than one provider edge box can handle, and you have to move= them to another edge box. > > What happens then? The modem interface might blink, but that doesn't tell= the router that anything happened. BRASes and CPEs both send keepalives to detect this event if it is disruptive to packet flow. > So it doesn't request a new prefix, and keeps using the one it had before= . But the new PE box doesn't have a route for it, because there was no DHCP= v6 exchange to snoop/glean. Even if you (or the customer, hopefully not aft= er a call) bounce the home router, the new PE box installs a route, but how= does the old box know to delete its route? > BRAS session keepalives. Other mechanisms I've seen is DSLAMs that spoof a PPPoE PADT on behalf of the CPE if the ADSL link went down so that BRAS sessions were terminated. I remember not liking that because it meant that BRAS sessions were torn down even though the ADSL link could recover within our BRAS's and CPE's keepalive periods. That created needless authentication requests and session database entries. > > You said "if you do need to aggregate," but you always do, if you have mo= re than a few thousand customers. I don't think you do at a threshold of a few thousand customers. BGP demonstrably scales to at least 700 000 routes for IPv4, so lets assume 350K for IPv6. The other main scaling factor is route churn. Per Geoff's research from 2017 (https://blog.apnic.net/2018/01/10/bgp-in-2017/), the global Internet is handling close to 2 BGP updates per second (170 000/day). So I'd estimate a cluster of BRASes servicing 100 000 customers, with full announcement of all delegated prefixes between the cluster members, and route aggregation only occurring towards the cluster's upstream routers should be quite possible. The population of users serviced by a cluster is the customers' prefix stability domain. That may be a city, town, region or PoP. If the customers session disconnect/reconnect lands on the same BRAS cluster all the time (but not necessarily the same BRAS) - and that is what you design to happen if it is not already inherent in your broadband backbone - then their IPv6 PD prefix is stable across sessions. > Nobody wants ten million customer prefixes in their network. I don't think I said anybody does. You'll need to aggregate before then. The fundamental point of the above BRAS cluster model is that the aggregation boundary doesn't have to be at the boundary of an individual BRAS device, because we have a routing protocol that can scale far beyond the capacity of a typical BRAS and well above a few thousand customers. With stable broadband connections, the primary aggregation factor is how many routes you can support and want to have within and outside the BRAS cluster. > Really, nobody wants ten thousand prefixes in their IGP. > ("BGP assumed ...") I'd be a bit surprised if people are importing 1000s of customer prefixes into an IGP today at an ISP, and if they are, I'd be advising them to shift those routes into BGP. > Really, nobody wants to maintain a table of ten million assigned prefixes= , to be queried with every DHCPv6 request. The initial population of that t= able, and lookups, and moves/add/changes/deletions, requires a bit of autom= ation that has no ROI. I think it does have an RIO, it will both cut down on helpdesk calls and also avoids creating or contributing to a negative reliability perception in your customers' minds. It can also impact your word of mouth marketing. Some customers will tolerate a small amount of unreliability below a threshold. If they're asked their opinion of your service by a friend, neighbour etc., you want them to say "it's excellent", "I'm very happy", "highly recommended" etc. rather than "it's not to bad", "occasionally it's sometimes a bit unreliable". People have a bias that places more weight on negativity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias - so you want to avoid anything that creates a negative experience. If a customer is reissued with their same prefix across a disconnect/reconnect, then their application session connections survive, because it is a period of transient packet loss. That induces some minor application delays, but then things recover and continue. If their prefix changes on each disconnect/reconnect, then application sessions fail, and that can become visible to end-users. It has been argued that applications should be written to cope with that event, however that is a I think that is a reasonably high cost to impose all applications. It may be becoming necessary however it would be better to minimise its use if possible. Some applications may not be written to cope with it, and recovery is much more involved than recovering from packet loss. There's more chance of a negative end-user experience. > If I ran an ISP, I would not want to spend a lot of time developing featu= res to retain my most expensive customers. > > I don't think it is the expensive customers who desire the most reliable service they can have within what they're paying, I think it is all of your customers. Who purposely buys something that is noticeably unreliable? > > I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable means th= e ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't need to= at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of perma= nent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium for. > > I've tried to avoid saying "static prefix" because it's easily confused w= ith "static route." I've generally said "persistent prefix" to mean that do= esn't change (your "static"), and only referred to the relative stability o= r persistence of a prefix for one that may change. > I'm taking a slightly more customer perspective on the term in regards to the prefix - "static' means never changing while the customer/provider paid relationship exists, where as "stable" means under normal and common network circumstances the prefix won't change (i.e. connection/reconnection at the network point) For example, my DHCPv6-PD prefix has been stable for 7 years because I've lived in the same place for 7 years. If I move house, I may or may not get the same prefix. > > > >> This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and >> it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. >> >> >> If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to work >> with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that there's >> a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies that >> will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities or >> defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to define= . > > > If it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want cha= nging prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than done, w= hich is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed every 24 hour= s suggests to me they may not have much understanding of what that would en= tail to make it seamless and automatic. > > Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one of the mos= t common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches dynamic ad= dress assignment from a pool and reallocates the same address to the same a= uthenticated user if they disconnect and then reconnect to the same BRAS. > > Most ISPs seem to like a very small number of very large BRASes (unlike m= e) at a service aggregation point, so the likelihood of being assigned the = same IPv4 address across disconnect/reconnect goes up. > > If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the same IPv4 ad= dress for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and their BRAS u= ptime. > > If there is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a very s= imilar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have had for th= e last 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband became availabl= e. I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just observing that it has been = an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long time. > > This is a strong argument. My motivations are not so much to protect priv= acy (I'd like a privacy expert to explain the threat relative to other issu= es, considering how effective fingerprinting and cookies are) as the operat= ional issues above. > > But I also have an architectural principle that an IP address is a networ= k locator and host identifier, just a set of integers, and relying on them = not changing is ossifying the network. > With the rise of multipath transport layer protocols, I've started to think that trying to solve the locator identifier problem at the network layer may have been the incorrect place to try to solve it. I think they're separating the identifier property from an IP address, however rather than having a host identifier, they're instead using a transport layer session identifier. I think that's the communications identity that matters, not the identity of the host the application is operating on. So I think multipath transport layer protocols will help reduce the impact of renumbering events. > RFC7010 "IPv6 Site Renumbering Gap Analysis" lists the stuff that needs t= o happen when a prefix changes. In short, it's how to notify everything of = changes, updating DNS, firewall/ACL/policy stuff, and miscellaneous config = bits. If DHCPv6 Reconfigure was supported and it was obvious how to declare= a dDNS server, using wildcards for prefixes in firewalls and DHCP servers = gets you 90% of the way there. > I think with the rise of mobile devices, multipath transport protocols and end-to-end encryption, a lot of the need for a lot of these things might disappear, because once an IP address is just a locator, and not an identifier, a lot of the policy stuff that assumes and relies on an IP address being an identifier won't work e.g. ACLs, DNS etc. "The Rapid Rise of the Mobile Multihomed Host, and What It Might Mean to the Network" https://www.ausnog.net/sites/default/files/ausnog-2013/presentations/D01%20= P06-the%20rapid%20rise%20of%20the%20mobile%20multihomed%20host.pdf Regards, Mark. > Lee From nobody Thu Nov 8 19:05:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15734130DE6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 19:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-SYSrDE-gy8 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 19:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56C0130DDA for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 19:05:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1541732699; x=1542337499; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=0CR2vAPNbGqE+uk2FOn3YLBMA+fgWn8D+nTSnitUF+4=; b=HZvGxhRJr18tt 7EufWsLqfjX7O0ccgB1SMVotW1Xuk6BJFP1Y1VUlhKYB2SEkkKaAZ7Vf9h465CuR zQoGlIo3nmVqU5STLf34LaDoKiGveiomVkkxO+1LqQUCrIzKXbNObClChwWmBdm0 TJtF0BTX649U0T0PaWinaiZGlJpWc4= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:04:59 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:04:57 +0100 Received: from [31.133.128.251] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005954431.msg for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:04:55 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:67c:370:128:59b0:8281:24eb:dbda X-MDHelo: [31.133.128.251] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:04:55 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1851fefbff=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 10:04:41 +0700 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Mark Smith , Lee Howard CC: v6ops list Message-ID: <1495794F-BB54-48AC-A18C-464AFD6EA716@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 03:05:09 -0000 One additional consideration. Most of the time, "business" customers are in the same BRAS as "residential= " customers. Even if they get different SLAs, or whatever. Business customers may be a "different" concept depending on the size of th= e customer, that's clear. I'm not talking about "leased" lines. The point is that those customers get persistent addresses. So technologica= lly/operationally there is no reason for making a difference. Now, if you tell me that the "real" reason for that is making a marketing d= istinction, I may (or may not) agree. But this shows that is not "a problem= " for operators. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Mark Smith Fecha: viernes, 9 de noviembre de 2018, 9:42 Para: Lee Howard CC: v6ops list Asunto: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks Hi Lee, =20 On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 02:14, Lee Howard wrote: > > > On 11/8/18 7:08 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > Hi Lee, > > On Thu., 8 Nov. 2018, 18:45 Lee Howard > >> >> On 11/6/18 8:28 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> > It is much better to educate ISP so they understand that with IPv6= there is no need to change prefixes, so they should not do that. They can = also offer new services in an easier way if the prefix is persistent ... > > Thanks for making some technical points, as someone who worked at an = ISP. . . > > > > > The only issue is route aggregation. > > With stable home broadband connections, you're not going to get a lot= of route churn, so your need for aggregation is driven by conserving route= table slots, rather than load caused by route flaps. (BGP assumed ...) > > If you do need to aggregate, you can provide prefix stability without= guaranteed static assignment by e.g. defining a geographical area were sta= bility is provided. > > If the customer moves within that area, they keep the same prefix. If= the customer moves out of that area, they get assigned a different stable = prefix. > > Not just "the customer moved" but "you moved the customer." Sometimes= you get more users than one provider edge box can handle, and you have to = move them to another edge box. > > What happens then? The modem interface might blink, but that doesn't = tell the router that anything happened. =20 BRASes and CPEs both send keepalives to detect this event if it is disruptive to packet flow. =20 =20 > So it doesn't request a new prefix, and keeps using the one it had be= fore. But the new PE box doesn't have a route for it, because there was no = DHCPv6 exchange to snoop/glean. Even if you (or the customer, hopefully not= after a call) bounce the home router, the new PE box installs a route, but= how does the old box know to delete its route? > =20 BRAS session keepalives. =20 Other mechanisms I've seen is DSLAMs that spoof a PPPoE PADT on behalf of the CPE if the ADSL link went down so that BRAS sessions were terminated. I remember not liking that because it meant that BRAS sessions were torn down even though the ADSL link could recover within our BRAS's and CPE's keepalive periods. That created needless authentication requests and session database entries. =20 > > You said "if you do need to aggregate," but you always do, if you hav= e more than a few thousand customers. =20 I don't think you do at a threshold of a few thousand customers. =20 BGP demonstrably scales to at least 700 000 routes for IPv4, so lets assume 350K for IPv6. =20 The other main scaling factor is route churn. Per Geoff's research from 2017 (https://blog.apnic.net/2018/01/10/bgp-in-2017/), the global Internet is handling close to 2 BGP updates per second (170 000/day). =20 So I'd estimate a cluster of BRASes servicing 100 000 customers, with full announcement of all delegated prefixes between the cluster members, and route aggregation only occurring towards the cluster's upstream routers should be quite possible. =20 The population of users serviced by a cluster is the customers' prefix stability domain. That may be a city, town, region or PoP. If the customers session disconnect/reconnect lands on the same BRAS cluster all the time (but not necessarily the same BRAS) - and that is what you design to happen if it is not already inherent in your broadband backbone - then their IPv6 PD prefix is stable across sessions. =20 > Nobody wants ten million customer prefixes in their network. =20 I don't think I said anybody does. You'll need to aggregate before then= . =20 The fundamental point of the above BRAS cluster model is that the aggregation boundary doesn't have to be at the boundary of an individual BRAS device, because we have a routing protocol that can scale far beyond the capacity of a typical BRAS and well above a few thousand customers. =20 With stable broadband connections, the primary aggregation factor is how many routes you can support and want to have within and outside the BRAS cluster. =20 > Really, nobody wants ten thousand prefixes in their IGP. > =20 ("BGP assumed ...") =20 I'd be a bit surprised if people are importing 1000s of customer prefixes into an IGP today at an ISP, and if they are, I'd be advising them to shift those routes into BGP. =20 > Really, nobody wants to maintain a table of ten million assigned pref= ixes, to be queried with every DHCPv6 request. The initial population of th= at table, and lookups, and moves/add/changes/deletions, requires a bit of a= utomation that has no ROI. =20 I think it does have an RIO, it will both cut down on helpdesk calls and also avoids creating or contributing to a negative reliability perception in your customers' minds. =20 It can also impact your word of mouth marketing. Some customers will tolerate a small amount of unreliability below a threshold. If they're asked their opinion of your service by a friend, neighbour etc., you want them to say "it's excellent", "I'm very happy", "highly recommended" etc. rather than "it's not to bad", "occasionally it's sometimes a bit unreliable". People have a bias that places more weight on negativity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias - so you want to avoid anything that creates a negative experience. =20 If a customer is reissued with their same prefix across a disconnect/reconnect, then their application session connections survive, because it is a period of transient packet loss. That induces some minor application delays, but then things recover and continue. =20 If their prefix changes on each disconnect/reconnect, then application sessions fail, and that can become visible to end-users. =20 It has been argued that applications should be written to cope with that event, however that is a I think that is a reasonably high cost to impose all applications. It may be becoming necessary however it would be better to minimise its use if possible. =20 Some applications may not be written to cope with it, and recovery is much more involved than recovering from packet loss. There's more chance of a negative end-user experience. =20 =20 > If I ran an ISP, I would not want to spend a lot of time developing f= eatures to retain my most expensive customers. > > =20 I don't think it is the expensive customers who desire the most reliable service they can have within what they're paying, I think it is all of your customers. Who purposely buys something that is noticeably unreliable? =20 =20 > > I think there is a distinction between stable and static. Stable mean= s the ISP will try to avoid changing it, but don't guarantee they won't nee= d to at sometime in the future. A static prefix provides the guarantee of p= ermanent assignment and it is the guarantee the customer pays the premium f= or. > > I've tried to avoid saying "static prefix" because it's easily confus= ed with "static route." I've generally said "persistent prefix" to mean tha= t doesn't change (your "static"), and only referred to the relative stabili= ty or persistence of a prefix for one that may change. > =20 I'm taking a slightly more customer perspective on the term in regards to the prefix - "static' means never changing while the customer/provider paid relationship exists, where as "stable" means under normal and common network circumstances the prefix won't change (i.e. connection/reconnection at the network point) =20 For example, my DHCPv6-PD prefix has been stable for 7 years because I've lived in the same place for 7 years. If I move house, I may or may not get the same prefix. =20 > > > >> This isn't an "educate ISPs" issue, and >> it's arrogant of you to suggest that it is. >> >> >> If we need to reconstitute the 6renum working group to find ways to = work >> with changing prefixes, I will support that. It seems to me that the= re's >> a combination of SDN, Anima, dynamic DNS, and Homenet technologies t= hat >> will make it all work, but maybe there's some set of commonalities o= r >> defaults that need to exist in unmanaged networks that we need to de= fine. > > > If it can be made totally seamless and automatic, the those that want= changing prefixes should have them if possible. It is easier said than don= e, which is why privacy experts saying a prefix should be changed every 24 = hours suggests to me they may not have much understanding of what that woul= d entail to make it seamless and automatic. > > Most people also have stable IPv4 addresses today, because one of the= most common BRAS implementations that I have experience with caches dynami= c address assignment from a pool and reallocates the same address to the sa= me authenticated user if they disconnect and then reconnect to the same BRA= S. > > Most ISPs seem to like a very small number of very large BRASes (unli= ke me) at a service aggregation point, so the likelihood of being assigned = the same IPv4 address across disconnect/reconnect goes up. > > If they have stable broadband connections, they can have the same IPv= 4 address for months, depending on their service (link) uptime and their BR= AS uptime. > > If there is a privacy problem with stable IPv6 prefixes, there's a ve= ry similar one with the inherently stable IPv4 addresses people have had fo= r the last 15 or so years since always-on residential broadband became avai= lable. I'm not dismissing the privacy concern, just observing that it has b= een an accepted one with IPv4 for quite a long time. > > This is a strong argument. My motivations are not so much to protect = privacy (I'd like a privacy expert to explain the threat relative to other = issues, considering how effective fingerprinting and cookies are) as the op= erational issues above. > > But I also have an architectural principle that an IP address is a ne= twork locator and host identifier, just a set of integers, and relying on t= hem not changing is ossifying the network. > =20 With the rise of multipath transport layer protocols, I've started to think that trying to solve the locator identifier problem at the network layer may have been the incorrect place to try to solve it. =20 I think they're separating the identifier property from an IP address, however rather than having a host identifier, they're instead using a transport layer session identifier. I think that's the communications identity that matters, not the identity of the host the application is operating on. =20 So I think multipath transport layer protocols will help reduce the impact of renumbering events. =20 > RFC7010 "IPv6 Site Renumbering Gap Analysis" lists the stuff that nee= ds to happen when a prefix changes. In short, it's how to notify everything= of changes, updating DNS, firewall/ACL/policy stuff, and miscellaneous con= fig bits. If DHCPv6 Reconfigure was supported and it was obvious how to dec= lare a dDNS server, using wildcards for prefixes in firewalls and DHCP serv= ers gets you 90% of the way there. > =20 I think with the rise of mobile devices, multipath transport protocols and end-to-end encryption, a lot of the need for a lot of these things might disappear, because once an IP address is just a locator, and not an identifier, a lot of the policy stuff that assumes and relies on an IP address being an identifier won't work e.g. ACLs, DNS etc. =20 "The Rapid Rise of the Mobile Multihomed Host, and What It Might Mean to the Network" https://www.ausnog.net/sites/default/files/ausnog-2013/presentations/D0= 1%20P06-the%20rapid%20rise%20of%20the%20mobile%20multihomed%20host.pdf =20 =20 Regards, Mark. =20 > Lee =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Nov 8 23:47:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AFB130E4A for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JG22HzZ1SGe1 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3112C130DD1 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:47:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B8841C20 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:47:29 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C1F40D75; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:47:29 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id B14CE20C4F; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:47:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:47:29 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Mark Smith Cc: Lee Howard , v6ops list Message-ID: <20181109074729.GQ11393@Space.Net> References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 07:47:35 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 01:41:59PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote: > It has been argued that applications should be written to cope with > that event, however that is a I think that is a reasonably high cost > to impose all applications. It may be becoming necessary however it > would be better to minimise its use if possible. "All applications that are expected to be used in a SoHo environment", which tends to move towards "https requests, https requests, and bit of local stuff in the local network". (All the mobile apps have learned this long ago, because you need to be able to do it for wifi<->3G/4G roaming. Why expect less from SoHo desktop applications?) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Nov 9 01:31:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5B112F18C for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 01:31:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FCBGqckRUgU for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 01:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6D16128DFD for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 01:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id t81-v6so798373iod.10 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:31:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7y36U+8orWM1RoxEWYBRIkSQsJmE2gTQUNm34T7JDh0=; b=Fht5GVmrGVm0zqQxpNY5NoMC3H+S6XwMbnn8ZHH1JdhcdpJfqNWQznxAOGofPSV2jT SnFzcWxJG9MBXllD25N0HLqRvvl56glTBIqF4m6xC9xl027NyAAFrrMj4ylY5CZcY7Ez x6HZr3UG1SpLHhMX/vdEOB+DkrlAvO1eIchNExIbcHZCQGcmV5MvNk5E7pn2CB1Fkh6y nGBs0fc9O/OakUBy0rGAVyRzWWZjtNV46OkdsVfFqE8B3BzecwoS+m6aKyxRnOATfzHc nkGN/OJVqQZezmu5F5Ss0GZZVRzMU5ZYEYBuLfNYjm65M4s0mhlWSYe40UqQeoRmPMN8 ehgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7y36U+8orWM1RoxEWYBRIkSQsJmE2gTQUNm34T7JDh0=; b=GPu714r++Ng4gsp8mGmsM6CI6jeLeQ8DD8nyCCD4Bf6pZsKbAp4IoKtsHiw0QXI2Gm Qo2dd4VXf19Cqo+u1/1IopxZII2fDsErh2B1F1mkkk5WknbLQ9z0Qe/v5BfCsomGgr1b wl6Eoz8yYBXuhIac9ukSZwW9/xxs6gfw8XgUImnu3Lxm9g8BStUTxH/xYCptDDC+qF7O jiLx3X5szoBTcutaUWsp0zyM3wnCWOGA9gFRgVwWYGcYJ9fGawVoCr/eip0psfVZ92hn Q4a539w9SS+/qEKUVZFK3rEovJskDq4csD7RdPt5hdZBs2bO14mA3FZv7VCAOHuIpONV 9O7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJonKBGJsWK1w/UZAOMBfI6sud/YEpPXHML4UloYJd9jlDHRYdZ OiPTrujRp/hHxuFoyFstLk6lugxd4C0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fXIn/TSr3+gclafcUUQ9svBp9xi2u0oiBBaeXAScm33nuu+bsVVZj4IVcSYzbz4S1N2Vu8GA== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b48d:: with SMTP id d135-v6mr6477721iof.61.1541755874851; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-f180.google.com (mail-it1-f180.google.com. [209.85.166.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g18-v6sm464946itg.7.2018.11.09.01.31.13 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-f180.google.com with SMTP id m15so2276689itl.4 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:31:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a24:cbc3:: with SMTP id u186-v6mr1650000itg.143.1541755873751; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:31:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Patterson Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 09:31:02 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Lee Howard , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 09:31:17 -0000 On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 02:42, Mark Smith wrote: > BRASes and CPEs both send keepalives to detect this event if it is > disruptive to packet flow. When using PPP[oE], sure, but what about IPoE? A problem we're trying to solve with draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health -Richard From nobody Fri Nov 9 16:20:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D20D12D7EA for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:20:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l9Q4YJ54ZX5S for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FA5E1277CC for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id g188-v6so2966344oif.8 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 16:20:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o1F6eYQD2SFdE6o5xXH2IVa8JwuO97+hBDWar3AXTeg=; b=gVSNfyfDwfGxMIrSz+n59MtQyHuldmBlMWRXUA/12wm0g6UpCl7nJ5eOT0LIcdubXD BLcWFcM3tNkFgMniJrG4/Gh5HVNw8oABuigrUepjhBBk4Ho1+nAkoUQTYdObP3aY8iBO DfK155sROUxYbcKuY9YHfL9wQIotuJzj8tegzoiv9yFZcon/ADO2JFjYjFVO4MePd/UW uBw2NrGYCtV/aS6iZc+wR2/UeVAql1tKlf7BNhaClu3Zt9JbKyKAozUb9yJSSjV6av1B lGZnkfUY3wELfUm1wiIUWhLociF6zpzTX1g4Qaakl+2YBC07wu1ua5jz4UIa7KmAuQaB CFfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o1F6eYQD2SFdE6o5xXH2IVa8JwuO97+hBDWar3AXTeg=; b=ZXGxrovR05exStYn0f4XUO4G9KwPK1CdX705NspxhkCz1lzhfFPtjfUoAowUdWjZSK 86ILl7BGNLh1mEuncDYqx70izUJYNIrpByryGt/eVeJkKD472OSvP0TWW6QmdfD0ULgp 8VNGN2U+0ex/OnM0GUiMAJouAF7DxfNDXCCCJwy7w8X+YYr3VjAOgAfXfPBAl1MXni72 obK5VkUj9I5G28ri22e1TuP/57V0yCwmIBeFWxgMMjvl8J1YgfUtSvbRKAGiimIsKV3i FGZSCdrV7hwqKBGLWFfHyIqsygaNYihxnu+V0krR6xqsX1hWdCPa/g4OrTMNdzbYO3O0 88nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJgqTW2tj2CRsjjh6CVWYa6kvjkeJRXVetjmx094b8KwfYZRzPI GxMJ7Y2UVQo2YtDAUhr6NRQKQgVroZGq8Le3T0o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cz2mzZkpXn3lsolgNkkD2q4odrJedN74SNhh7Fc9gh2mZ1ap8CVp9tZ7AILROAKl360Hsd5VuvqbqmnL0RObA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e484:: with SMTP id b126-v6mr6402795oih.60.1541809247507; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 16:20:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:20:20 +1100 Message-ID: To: richard@helix.net.nz Cc: Lee Howard , v6ops list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 00:20:51 -0000 On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 20:31, Richard Patterson wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 02:42, Mark Smith wrote: > > BRASes and CPEs both send keepalives to detect this event if it is > > disruptive to packet flow. > > When using PPP[oE], sure, but what about IPoE? So I don't have first hand experience with IPoE, however I have to assume that since it has been used for HFC networks universally for in the order of 15+ years, and a broadband ADSL network I know of for the past 10 or more years, that is fundamentally a solved problem. Otherwise it would be well known that there are hanging sessions/RADIUS accounting problems with HFC/IPoE networks, and I expect it would have fallen out of favour as an access method by now. There's been plenty of time for that to happen. The bit of research I've done in the past (about 10 years ago now), and verified now is that they're using things like ARP ping and ICMP echo request/response in addition to DHCP to create and maintain session state. For example, the copyright date on this presentation is 2007, and that describes how IPoE new sessions are established and how session failure is detected via a number of methods (DHCP lease expiry, ARP ping failure, ICMP ping failure). http://www.swinog.ch/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/The_Evolution_from_PPPoE_to_IPoE_sessions.pdf And here is a description of how another vendor is doing it (the same way) https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/concept/subscriber-management-dhcp-liveness-detection.html > A problem we're trying to solve with draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health > I think the only and a major criticism of the above methods is that they're using BRAS control plane resources for this liveness testing, and that can become considerable with 1000s of subscriber sessions on a BRAS. Having CPEs use forwarding plane verification i.e. sending traffic that is looped through the forwarding plane of the BRAS, back to the CPE, rather than CPEs using keepalives methods that are processed by the control plane of the BRAS (including PPP LCP Echo Request/Reply in a PPPoE scenario), would help remove a useful amount of load from BRAS control planes. Regards, Mark. > -Richard From nobody Sat Nov 10 05:41:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8077E12896A for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-36SCtd8PKV for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 262D1124C04 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id p83-v6so3236637iod.12 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vtiH/0/ImICMWtkw9AImDHhmyQy6t1XetO0kc8zCT7E=; b=Bx13Uvgfqc4BtDaasN0WknqiS5ihpA0RgBGp3y2jbI+6itw9KLu/OCLO5lQdTtsEHQ 82ynmNF1x1kaxUSlMksPT+xYzuBH80PTT6suNjvVE1xjRQmBeHyEMm6tVSALEO8HR2sL dTd+r1hy6uLQgPx1oLcSMFGCvlbcZgLtUuktoLyEHdF1Q/a30s/Rfpm9npOOrbMiNivX Z73e/nbyr6JYJcN7lcCdsBWGaUQmllop4SarxlPfW02zr2gSFvLY8F0XqQ3J9NpDE1mJ E/a5G8SkjXuW1Duy1qCKn6och7XMpq597WQ0jCxmmubCFIYvij/lgoJbdpUdCC1fQ/fr poCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vtiH/0/ImICMWtkw9AImDHhmyQy6t1XetO0kc8zCT7E=; b=eFBSHYxGuD0fuM85gYwBohn7JkzkJ+bev9ldb5LdTLPpzbBxQuvOSYU95IxL/i+ZSQ j0s6rVQampAlrqfqYoueL9ZANhvbHprKZu2idSYY3KZTfmhWj84meytmkzzBcM3Fg8uo k0lqvoupO0LPFl4fHxeSfwGuu3GUdIO3J8yL2DHJsWNmBpyEJZt0OvB031YPKLGWl9EU wCEOody9ZyqO7gO7h8VB2Hd+ujBoyp8lrICjCP9LdU+vPv+QjnTxxgny7SdCEGP5bmxc Q27SyCUZ5R+joOjz0tA6FCSN4STqmfbz0jBrL7bGPoHdDHDgze9aeJnGHhydL2UZXOeb I1Rw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKVQWoAcVd+zQAHmxxlYFJjDtnDrGUgR8oVcFwW+39dh1jKs4M6 QhkOIenEJWJOCfK86BPdGisvqUjj2+U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f+ErkCfLsw/ZfXn3TWNbl13hZ5elMwrm5aF38Bb2Uv39aumN2gRImVd52/4yJX0DDmOiyFqA== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:bc43:: with SMTP id m64-v6mr9471236iof.136.1541857254518; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-f47.google.com (mail-io1-f47.google.com. [209.85.166.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s14-v6sm3195621ioj.71.2018.11.10.05.40.53 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-f47.google.com with SMTP id r7-v6so3122717iog.7 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a5e:9701:: with SMTP id w1-v6mr10168275ioj.257.1541857252926; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:40:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181106113438.ud37g6ht6vaxtbif@imap.narrans.de> <81785dd3-9013-e802-934a-3d6c1b8f87bf@foobar.org> <3899E3F6-BD5D-47CA-8040-CD67E0229216@consulintel.es> <9883628c-1132-0026-2818-911654f23af2@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Patterson Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:40:41 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC host moving between networks X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:40:59 -0000 On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 00:20, Mark Smith wrote: > > The bit of research I've done in the past (about 10 years ago now), > and verified now is that they're using things like ARP ping and ICMP > echo request/response in addition to DHCP to create and maintain > session state. > Control plane issues aside, these approaches aren't commonly implemented by off-the-shelf CPEs. In the downstream direction, however, most BNGs do support the use of ARP/ND for CPE liveliness detection, however without reciprocal checks, it can actually exacerbate the problem/downtime. Lower DHCP lease times help, but doesn't scale very well in larger networks. From nobody Mon Nov 12 01:39:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BCB12D4EE; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 01:39:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QXSXqxpGNM3V; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 01:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A6D61277BB; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 01:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77903FECBE77; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:39:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6388F03D5; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:39:36 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:39:36 +0100 Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> To: Naveen Kottapalli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:39:40 -0000 Naveen, > I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am sure = it would consume more resources at router to support DHCPv6 as a whole = along with SLAAC. Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. Cheers, Ole >=20 > Yours, > Naveen. >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 14:59, Ole Troan wrote: > >> We have been down this road before with > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haberman-ipngwg-auto-prefix-02 > >> Which is what led to RFC3633. > >> Is your main motivation for this that there are some platforms that = don=E2=80=99t implement DHCP PD? > >=20 > > For what is worth: there are some platforms that do not and will not = implement DHCPv6 PD. >=20 > And I=E2=80=99m sure platforms that will not implement this=E2=80=A6 > DHCPv6 PD is just a wire format specified between a requesting router = and a delegating router directly connected. > If you cannot implement that, it=E2=80=99s going to be hard to justify = implementing the exact same, just with different naming. >=20 > Ole >=20 > >> Seems like the simple solution is to get those to implement it, = rather than proposing a redundant standard that no-one has implemented = yet. > >> Unless I am misunderstanding where you want to go with this? > >> Cheers, > >> Ole > >>> On 7 Nov 2018, at 07:59, Naveen Kottapalli = wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> Hello, > >>>=20 > >>> IPv6 StateLess Address AutoConfiguration (SLAAC) in its current = form doesn't offer following services like: > >>>=20 > >>> 1. Soliciting a prefix of specific length. The length could be of = either /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by nodes) or = non /64 bit prefix (which would generally be solicited by either CPE or = downstream routers). > >>> 2. Releasing the prefixes that are no more used by the device. = This could be equally important for the routers who assigned the prefix = to make the unused prefixes available for other nodes. > >>>=20 > >>> To achieve the above objectives, a ND based message protocol is = introduced in the below draft that does what a DHCPv6 node do; without = introducing any new message types or new option types or flag types. > >>>=20 > >>> Can you all share your thoughts on the draft? > >>>=20 > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >>> From: > >>> Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:14 AM > >>> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> To: Naveen Kottapalli > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> A new version of I-D, draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> has been successfully submitted by Naveen Kottapalli and posted to = the > >>> IETF repository. > >>>=20 > >>> Name: draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management > >>> Revision: 00 > >>> Title: IPv6 Stateless Prefix Management > >>> Document date: 2018-11-06 > >>> Group: Individual Submission > >>> Pages: 15 > >>> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-= 00.txt > >>> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management/ > >>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00 > >>> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management= > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Abstract: > >>> The Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) = provides a > >>> provision for the hosts to request for a specific IPv6 address = and > >>> manage the same, whereas the StateLess Address = AutoConfiguration > >>> (SLAAC) doesn't have such a provision. Also, unavailability of > >>> DHCPv6 across all OS platforms has limited the IPv6 nodes to = not use > >>> features like soliciting a prefix of desired length and = lifetime, > >>> renewing, releasing / declining a prefix, etc. This document > >>> proposes IPv6ND extensions for enabling SLAAC devices to = solicit > >>> prefix information as a hint PIO in RS and other methods like > >>> renewing or releasing or declining a prefix without introducing = any > >>> new ICMPv6 message or option types. > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. > >>>=20 > >>> The IETF Secretariat > >>>=20 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> v6ops mailing list > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 12 02:18:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A4C130DD5 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:18:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Xvh6Ntqci_G for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogstar.hit.bme.hu (frogstar.hit.bme.hu [IPv6:2001:738:2001:4020::2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9F711277BB for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (host-79-121-41-91.kabelnet.hu [79.121.41.91]) (authenticated bits=0) by frogstar.hit.bme.hu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wACAI8HU094882 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:18:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lencse@hit.bme.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: frogstar.hit.bme.hu: Host host-79-121-41-91.kabelnet.hu [79.121.41.91] claimed to be [192.168.1.119] To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=c3=a1bor?= Message-ID: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:18:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CFA87F09E35E6109198F814B" Content-Language: en-US X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.1 at frogstar.hit.bme.hu X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: pass (frogstar.hit.bme.hu: authenticated connection) receiver=frogstar.hit.bme.hu; client-ip=79.121.41.91; helo=[192.168.1.119]; envelope-from=lencse@hit.bme.hu; x-software=spfmilter 2.001 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.2.10; X-DCC--Metrics: frogstar.hit.bme.hu; whitelist X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 152.66.248.44 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:18:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CFA87F09E35E6109198F814B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Ian Farrer, Thank you very much for reviewing our draft. Please see my answers inline. (I was too busy last week, and even now, I will be able to answer you only partially, I ask your patience regarding the rest parts.) 11/8/2018 8:47 AM keltezéssel, ianfarrer@gmx.com írta: > Hi, > > Thanks for tackling this task. It’s really useful to document the > characteristics of the different mechanisms now there’s some real > experience of them. > > As promised in v6ops on Monday, here’s a review of the draft. > > Thanks, > Ian > > 2.1 > 1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it’s > worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44. Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to break the train of thought as follows: DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets *(and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation)*. > > 2, Number of bytes overhead difference is certainly worth mentioning, > but in practice, I'm not sure it's that much of a differentiator. IME > 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot of network's MTUs (especially > for backhaul). If the network supports more than this then it's likely > to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 payload differences are > unlikely to pose a real problem. Yes, of course, except for rare cases, the different is only significant if it causes fragmentation. > 3, DSLite doesn't do double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 only > does encapsulation of the privately addressed traffic into v6. The > AFTR uses the unique v6 B4 source address to track the flows and does > stateful NAT44. Yes, you are right, it is explicitly stated in 4.2 that: A DS-Lite CPE SHOULD NOT operate a NAT function between an internal interface and a B4 interface, as the NAT function will be performed by the AFTR in the service provider's network. This will avoid accidentally operating in a double-NAT environment. However,  a stateful NAT44 has to be done somewhere from the user's private address range to one of the addresses in 192.0.0.x/29. The next sentence of 4.2 is: However, it SHOULD operate its own DHCP(v4) server handing out [RFC1918 ] address space (e.g., 192.168.0.0/16) to hosts in the home. And above, you have suggested a correction which means the there is a NAT44 function in the DS-Lite CE device: *DS-Lite*, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets (and use single *NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation*). So can you help me, where it is done? > 4, "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation > can carry only TCP, UDP or ICMP over IP, when they are used with IPv4 > address sharing". > > There are other protocols that have layer-4 ports (e.g. SCTP). In > previous softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been > used, suggested re-word: > > "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation > can only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and ICMP when >  they are used with IPv4 address sharing" Thank you very much for pointing it out and also for suggesting a better wording. I have changed it as you recommended. > 5, RFC8114 describes 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would > be worth mentioning this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to > perform encapsulation of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast > addresses (a subset of the RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that > this works with clients implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I > haven't tested it, but I would assume that a MAP-E BR could be > configured to do the same. I would be happy to include your results. If you have already published them, we can cite them. Could you put down you experience in few paragraph or even a full (sub)section, which we could include? > > 3.1.1 > 1, This states that XLAT without as dedicated translation /64 may have > triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 stateless in the CPE and NAT64 > stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the > worst case’ (although please see above regarding this), but the triple > NAT for 464XLAT is then described as less problematic due to the > distribution of state to CPEs. This seems inconsistent in evaluation. > Yes, it was deliberately wrong. I have deleted the sentence: "The worst case is DS-Lite, which is also doing double stateful translation (NAT44 at the CE and NAT44 at the AFTR). " > > 3.1.2 > See comment about DSLite above. > Correction is pending. We should clarify where NAT44 is done on the CE side. > > 3.1.3 > 1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID address construction as MAP, but does not > use the 'general' MAP algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses. Do you recommend it as a text to be added as is? If yes, please specify after which sentence. > 2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single contiguous block of ports per > client (a-bits=0). WKPs are excluded (if required) through > provisioning. MAP (by default) uses a-bits=6, meaning that a client's > total ports are distributed across the total port space, and the WKPs > are excluded from allocation to any customer. One by product of this > is that the netfilter problem (only using the first port set for NAPT, > noted in section 3.2) is not experienced in a lw4o6 deployment. > > 3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to clients is > worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the deployment. When a > full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR functions as > in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer performs A+P based routing for that > client. This means that non port-aware protocols can be routed. As > this can be configured on a per-client basis, if a customer reports a > problem with a particular application, they can be re-provisioned with > a full address. > > > 3.2 > 1, Port sizes for clients for MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not > fixed. A CGN's port block allocation policy is certainly easier to > change, but this is not something that is done regularly: > > * lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, so it is possible to > change the port block size for single or multiple clients and > distribute this to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets renewed. > * A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered in the domain) can be > redimensioned to change the client's port space. Again, deploy > time would be in line with DHCPv6 timers. > > > 2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the Miy2010 > reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references section? Yes this is a problem. (As I am an IEICE member, and I could download the paper, this is why I was not aware of this problem.) I have just asked the author (Shin Miyakawa) in a message through ResearchGate to share a public copy of his paper. I hope that he will do so soon. Meanwhile, I will send you a copy of it in a private mail in a few minutes. (I think I may not send it to the mailing list.) Best regards, Gábor > 3, Do you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was > done, and specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection > multiplexing described in section 3.2 was used? > > > 3.3 > 1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, as it’s > not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 servers with > IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It’s also worth describing whether making the > server externally accessible can be configured purely by the customer, > and which would need configuration by the operator in centralised > infrastructure. > > 2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, so it is possible to run > externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. Generally, these > will not be the WKP ports, unless those are being distributed for use > by clients. But customer can configure a server to be run on a higher > port (taken from the allocated block) then port translated (if needed) > to e.g. 443. > > 3, PCP would be worth including here. > > > 3.4 Support and implementations > 1, As NetFilter in the CPE is mentioned, It might be good to include > information about FOSS operator side implementations as well. Off the > top of my head: > > MAP-BR, lwAFTR, CGN - VPP/fd.io > https://gerrit.fd.io/r/#/admin/projects/ > lwAFTR - https://github.com/Igalia/snabb > DSLite AFTR https://www.isc.org/downloads/ > > > 3.6 Load Sharing > 1, This section needs to discuss more about state table > synchronisation between cluster members for stateful solutions as this > is the major bottleneck in scaling such solutions (and whether they > can support asymmetric v4 > and v6 paths through the cluster). > > 2, Not sure if this is the right section, but there is also a > consideration about geographical resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. > in a 1+1 resilience model, the size of public IPv4 address pools need > to be scaled to allow for handling all customer traffic in event of a > site failure). Stateless solutions can be more efficient here as they > can have a common IPv4 range accessible via multiple geographical > locations. > > > 3.7 Logging > 1, I think that a lot more needs to be said on this topic. It also > needs to be weighed against points made in other parts of the > document. E.g., in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic nature of > port allocation > in a CGN to allow for more flexible port allocations, but there is a > cost in logging overhead. Having first hand experience of a network > that does CGN per-flow logging to comply with local legal > requirements, this can be a major consideration. In the total cost of > the solution, the CGN infrastructure was a fraction of the logging and > storage costs. > > > In addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the document > should discuss: > > * IPv6 and IPv4 address planning / topology independence > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------CFA87F09E35E6109198F814B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Ian Farrer,

Thank you very much for reviewing our draft.

Please see my answers inline. (I was too busy last week, and even now, I will be able to answer you only partially, I ask your patience regarding the rest parts.)

11/8/2018 8:47 AM keltezéssel, ianfarrer@gmx.com írta:
Hi,

Thanks for tackling this task. It’s really useful to document the characteristics of the different mechanisms now there’s some real experience of them.

As promised in v6ops on Monday, here’s a review of the draft.

Thanks,
Ian

2.1
1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it’s worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44.

Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to break the train of thought as follows:

DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation).



2, Number of bytes overhead difference is certainly worth mentioning, but in practice, I'm not sure it's that much of a differentiator. IME 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot of network's MTUs (especially for backhaul). If the network supports more than this then it's likely to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 payload differences are unlikely to pose a real problem.

Yes, of course, except for rare cases, the different is only significant if it causes fragmentation.

3, DSLite doesn't do double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 only does encapsulation of the privately addressed traffic into v6. The AFTR uses the unique v6 B4 source address to track the flows and does stateful NAT44.

Yes, you are right, it is explicitly stated in 4.2 that:

   A DS-Lite CPE SHOULD NOT operate a NAT function between an internal
   interface and a B4 interface, as the NAT function will be performed
   by the AFTR in the service provider's network.  This will avoid
   accidentally operating in a double-NAT environment.

However,  a stateful NAT44 has to be done somewhere from the user's private address range to one of the addresses in 192.0.0.x/29. The next sentence of 4.2 is:
   However, it SHOULD operate its own DHCP(v4) server handing out
   [RFC1918] address space (e.g., 192.168.0.0/16) to hosts in the home.

And above, you have suggested a correction which means the there is a NAT44 function in the DS-Lite CE device:

DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation).

So can you help me, where it is done?
4, "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation can carry only TCP, UDP or ICMP over IP, when they are used with IPv4 address sharing".

There are other protocols that have layer-4 ports (e.g. SCTP). In previous softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been used, suggested re-word:

"Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation can only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and ICMP when  they are used with IPv4 address sharing"

Thank you very much for pointing it out and also for suggesting a better wording. I have changed it as you recommended.

5, RFC8114 describes 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would be worth mentioning this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to perform encapsulation of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast addresses (a subset of the RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that this works with clients implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I haven't tested it, but I would assume that a MAP-E BR could be configured to do the same.

I would be happy to include your results. If you have already published them, we can cite them.

Could you put down you experience in few paragraph or even a full (sub)section, which we could include?


3.1.1
1, This states that XLAT without as dedicated translation /64 may have triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 stateless in the CPE and NAT64 stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the worst case’ (although please see above regarding this), but the triple NAT for 464XLAT is then described as less problematic due to the distribution of state to CPEs. This seems inconsistent in evaluation.


Yes, it was deliberately wrong. I have deleted the sentence:
"The worst case is DS-Lite, which is also doing double stateful translation (NAT44 at the CE and NAT44 at the AFTR). "


3.1.2
See comment about DSLite above.


Correction is pending. We should clarify where NAT44 is done on the CE side.


3.1.3
1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID address construction as MAP, but does not use the 'general' MAP algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses.

Do you recommend it as a text to be added as is? If yes, please specify after which sentence.

2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single contiguous block of ports per client (a-bits=0). WKPs are excluded (if required) through provisioning. MAP (by default) uses a-bits=6, meaning that a client's total ports are distributed across the total port space, and the WKPs are excluded from allocation to any customer. One by product of this is that the netfilter problem (only using the first port set for NAPT, noted in section 3.2) is not experienced in a lw4o6 deployment.

3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to clients is worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the deployment. When a full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR functions as
in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer performs A+P based routing for that client. This means that non port-aware protocols can be routed. As this can be configured on a per-client basis, if a customer reports a problem with a particular application, they can be re-provisioned with a full address.


3.2 
1, Port sizes for clients for MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not fixed. A CGN's port block allocation policy is certainly easier to change, but this is not something that is done regularly:
  • lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, so it is possible to change the port block size for single or multiple clients and distribute this to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets renewed.
  • A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered in the domain) can be redimensioned to change the client's port space. Again, deploy time would be in line with DHCPv6 timers.

2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the Miy2010 reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references section?

Yes this is a problem. (As I am an IEICE member, and I could download the paper, this is why I was not aware of this problem.)

I have just asked the author (Shin Miyakawa) in a message through ResearchGate to share a public copy of his paper. I hope that he will do so soon.

Meanwhile, I will send you a copy of it in a private mail in a few minutes. (I think I may not send it to the mailing list.)

Best regards,

Gábor

3, Do you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was done, and specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection multiplexing described in section 3.2 was used?


3.3
1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, as it’s not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 servers with IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It’s also worth describing whether making the server externally accessible can be configured purely by the customer, and which would need configuration by the operator in centralised infrastructure.

2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, so it is possible to run externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. Generally, these will not be the WKP ports, unless those are being distributed for use by clients. But customer can configure a server to be run on a higher port (taken from the allocated block) then port translated (if needed) to e.g. 443.

3, PCP would be worth including here.


3.4 Support and implementations
1, As NetFilter in the CPE is mentioned, It might be good to include information about FOSS operator side implementations as well. Off the top of my head:



3.6 Load Sharing
1, This section needs to discuss more about state table synchronisation between cluster members for stateful solutions as this is the major bottleneck in scaling such solutions (and whether they can support asymmetric v4
and v6 paths through the cluster).

2, Not sure if this is the right section, but there is also a consideration about geographical resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. in a 1+1 resilience model, the size of public IPv4 address pools need to be scaled to allow for handling all customer traffic in event of a site failure). Stateless solutions can be more efficient here as they can have a common IPv4 range accessible via multiple geographical locations.


3.7 Logging
1, I think that a lot more needs to be said on this topic. It also needs to be weighed against points made in other parts of the document. E.g., in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic nature of port allocation
in a CGN to allow for more flexible port allocations, but there is a cost in logging overhead. Having first hand experience of a network that does CGN per-flow logging to comply with local legal requirements, this can be a major consideration. In the total cost of the solution, the CGN infrastructure was a fraction of the logging and storage costs.


In addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the document should discuss:
  • IPv6 and IPv4 address planning / topology independence





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--------------CFA87F09E35E6109198F814B-- From nobody Mon Nov 12 02:57:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9447C129619 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RSO8KEiibYbJ for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 551221292F1 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 56C79FECBBDA; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:57:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A008F55F5; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:57:25 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:57:24 +0100 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> To: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:57:31 -0000 >> 1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it=E2=80=99= s worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44. >=20 > Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to = break the train of thought as follows: > DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 = packets (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation). >=20 So this is not correct. Given the errors and misconceptions=E2=80=A6 is this document going to = muddy the waters more than it clears it up? Trying to restate what existing specifications already say, might not = help. Unless you are really sure you can get it right. DS-lite: CE only encaps private IPv4 into IPv6, no NAT, tunnels to a = centralized NAT MAP-E: CE does port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel = concentrator LW46: CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel = concentrator MAP-T CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44, SIIT to IPv6 into a = centralized concentrator that SIIT from IPv6 to IPv4. 464XLAT: CE does an optional stateful NAT44 into a stateless NAT46 into = a centralized CGN doing NAT64. Best regards, Ole From nobody Mon Nov 12 06:28:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFE4130E30; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 06:28:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFVFsyv6rhO7; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E21128D09; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4E0BF51D134A7; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:28:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML523-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.95]) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com ([10.201.108.45]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:28:40 +0000 From: "Yutianpeng (Tim)" To: "draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison@ietf.org" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison Thread-Index: AdR6eQPzr+eov7IATWKQRh9SfKd+Iw== Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:28:39 +0000 Message-ID: <35FF0D51C8DAB54B95B0426331F984FF520A24C3@lhreml523-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.203.126.98] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_35FF0D51C8DAB54B95B0426331F984FF520A24C3lhreml523mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Mail regarding draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:28:48 -0000 --_000_35FF0D51C8DAB54B95B0426331F984FF520A24C3lhreml523mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors, Some comments related to this draft, hope will help. 1. In 2.1. Service Provider Network Traversal It could be useful if we can have diagrams showing how NAT or translation h= appens (CPE, BR, etc.) and differences between techniques. It will be much = easier for reading to get understood. 2. Related with overhead, as IPV4 stack (translated from V6) and IPV6 stack= will be sharing the delegated prefix, it will be treated as single IPV6 st= ack. The last mile compensation will not be able to distinguish IPV4 and IP= V6 packets with different compensation value. In case IPV4 services with small packet size (e.g. VOIP), policing/shaping = speed need special consideration. 3. It could be helpful to indicate the impact on multicast usage when intro= ducing different techniques as this is a widely used technique in service p= rovider. So far as I know NAT444 has a solution but haven't investigated th= e others yet, maybe waiting us work out one:). 4. Related with "We note that although it is not of typical use, one can do= deterministic stateful NAT and reserve a fixed set of ports for each custo= mer, too." Not sure if I have a misunderstanding on this but I believe it is common no= wadays on NAT devices that allocated fixed port range for each customer. Su= ch implementation will help improve performance and simplify source tracing= . I guess here function mentioned in the draft is to reserve a fixed port for= an internal server? It makes sense if so. 5. It could be useful to compare the performance between different techniqu= es on CGN devices, not only CPE. As stateless has nature advantage that it = could reach much higher performance than stateful without extra hardware in= troduced even. This is the most important reason why stateless is so import= ant. Regards, Tim --_000_35FF0D51C8DAB54B95B0426331F984FF520A24C3lhreml523mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors,

Some comments relat= ed to this draft, hope will help.

 

1.  In 2.1. Service= Provider Network Traversal

It could be useful = if we can have diagrams showing how NAT or translation happens (CPE, BR, et= c.) and differences between techniques. It will be much easier for reading = to get understood.

 

2. Related with ove= rhead, as IPV4 stack (translated from V6) and IPV6 stack will be sharing th= e delegated prefix, it will be treated as single IPV6 stack. The last mile = compensation will not be able to distinguish IPV4 and IPV6 packets with different compensation value.=

In case IPV4 servic= es with small packet size (e.g. VOIP), policing/shaping speed need special = consideration.

 

3. It could be help= ful to indicate the impact on multicast usage when introducing different te= chniques as this is a widely used technique in service provider. So far as = I know NAT444 has a solution but haven’t investigated the others yet, maybe waiting us work out oneJ.

 

4. Related with “We note that al= though it is not of typical use, one can do deterministic stateful NAT and = reserve a fixed set of ports for each customer, too.”

Not sure if I have = a misunderstanding on this but I believe it is common nowadays on NAT devic= es that allocated fixed port range for each customer. Such implementation w= ill help improve performance and simplify source tracing.

I guess here functi= on mentioned in the draft is to reserve a fixed port for an internal server= ? It makes sense if so.

 

5. It could be usef= ul to compare the performance between different techniques on CGN devices, = not only CPE. As stateless has nature advantage that it could reach much hi= gher performance than stateful without extra hardware introduced even. This is the most important reason why stat= eless is so important.

 

Regards,=

Tim

--_000_35FF0D51C8DAB54B95B0426331F984FF520A24C3lhreml523mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Nov 12 07:09:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFC1130E0A for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:09:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id btN9Nr0TIBqd for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 594F112D4E8 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:09:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ians-mbp.lan ([80.159.240.8]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MdWO8-1g7ym50QrU-00PL7W; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:08:49 +0100 From: ianfarrer@gmx.com Message-Id: <3ADB448F-D07B-4BE7-B672-BAEFF986A2D6@gmx.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9A374FF4-37ED-4E6D-8E31-3F266EB0BC88" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:08:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2nBcZX0BypjSMVw+kFJmfaobSUv9sI0YSEgjONksRe2xDrg+2Vq YzFhzVCckeUR/dw4vLhNRPMiP4ij7rdFw5SvCGvi+ihFoNhEl1BhicXaW42wyQyt6lRMJJY uxzwzrUJ6KsoAWwqvLYfi5RCeIMh8JoxeOi1roWoLgA/Ha2kYuCHK9KP/tjNKDNBz4JCWui EfMnyVTzzjKHk31ASwLVg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:YfmwaHwsBQY=:Rpj3znzzViXyULGlGWQw2F xW+BRxvbKjbCFl2BIwoi1KO8OnxXYSTUT91PimcFKBjUcWjZtlm28ULyTulRNVOIVbwkq+uUJ NLnoNTerNLGmLXZv6fo3X8E61U8ZPKKAe/pcFatWj3zm+EvU6Ae+cnXFy0DUdeCV6Cgnmjjbt n9wkw8OktJhoqz4zS+StoxOgH6d2LPIdw0I0LgjhcYuNvd46+pGx0l3hJHqJd7f+w28dXK0ce 8ixdNhKX1I66QM1i8Zen+6Z17QgVS/e3g+hekcnexta0Oz+0w94PosPhUXIzXGsdN4OSZMGqc aPz+UeYHZYQDMKoDJxZehjn63i2XlnNx6AbTBaqYdcFdf7ovhjR4a5rUbbYh2BDFSg9LOa2nk jIyBE6lz7+KaX43/Llyan7hAL9iRmx08BTpug6ZociCdxQ6Ml9nUQ3uPLhxdqjBtkyGqQYJRS mCfJgNi/4Kj916znnBKOikyhvmY7h67WPgnDaqoV1jz9x8+hHBjnP4gxVF/qZsPFgQF10brUc Rfk6mzSyADaicTfhPnPpJlBJUsCDWcCwqmEIXCTW7Mjwb3qIlgtG5J1vgV5LJS9vnazpzu4/P h5ibyE6D4Zc4mOmFakHUEqvxaSyE5ho2UJRLOPqgIg9fyPY/m7Vt5jMp2Udwk7CrI9eFGsgbD Zjc5BU2rXGYGWWLV/K/NgZm+qa2UtLVEHlM1ItpiwStFv/xSmTW0VTGYgUZhOrmFd+qHg4ryW +4c1+r6LRLMXbK/uobLTNyD6teOwyFSagdAqZoJTMHTETmjN4HrsNQ+WbZmr6bKuWxoAb5BWu ZLz1vobicrVEV9cDqS3OwyTK8kP+St/RAVM4SmBHb2PZSHJ9LdwTZt55GzgkCsjO7+dadegJI kOlB1JmwVteNCYhwvZoDu48/He1L7/3wur43NQ7aEkGcu5DOdswOkBcb7dzZyu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 15:09:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9A374FF4-37ED-4E6D-8E31-3F266EB0BC88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Gabor, Please see inline below. Thanks, Ian > On 12. Nov 2018, at 11:18, Lencse G=C3=A1bor = wrote: >=20 > Dear Ian Farrer, >=20 > Thank you very much for reviewing our draft. >=20 > Please see my answers inline. (I was too busy last week, and even now, = I will be able to answer you only partially, I ask your patience = regarding the rest parts.) >=20 > 11/8/2018 8:47 AM keltez=C3=A9ssel, ianfarrer@gmx.com = =C3=ADrta: >> Hi, >>=20 >> Thanks for tackling this task. It=E2=80=99s really useful to document = the characteristics of the different mechanisms now there=E2=80=99s some = real experience of them. >>=20 >> As promised in v6ops on Monday, here=E2=80=99s a review of the draft. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Ian >>=20 >> 2.1 >> 1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it=E2=80=99= s worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single NAT44. >=20 > Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to = break the train of thought as follows: > DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 = packets (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation). >=20 [if - Well, they are all mechanisms that have a single NAT44 in them, = but lw4o6 and MAP-E do NAT in the CPE, and DSLite has it in the AFTR] >=20 >>=20 >> 2, Number of bytes overhead difference is certainly worth mentioning, = but in practice, I'm not sure it's that much of a differentiator. IME = 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot of network's MTUs (especially = for backhaul). If the network supports more than this then it's likely = to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 payload differences are unlikely = to pose a real problem. >=20 > Yes, of course, except for rare cases, the different is only = significant if it causes fragmentation. [if - A more general point that=E2=80=99s worth making is that if you = can=E2=80=99t backhaul the traffic without fragmentation (whatever the = additional overhead), then really none of these solutions are a good fit = for you. RFC7597, Sec 8.3.1 already states this, but as it=E2=80=99s a = common consideration for all of these mechanisms, it=E2=80=99s worth = emphasising.] >=20 >> 3, DSLite doesn't do double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 = only does encapsulation of the privately addressed traffic into v6. The = AFTR uses the unique v6 B4 source address to track the flows and does = stateful NAT44. >=20 > Yes, you are right, it is explicitly stated in 4.2 that: >=20 > A DS-Lite CPE SHOULD NOT operate a NAT function between an internal > interface and a B4 interface, as the NAT function will be performed > by the AFTR in the service provider's network. This will avoid > accidentally operating in a double-NAT environment. >=20 > However, a stateful NAT44 has to be done somewhere from the user's = private address range to one of the addresses in 192.0.0.x/29. The next = sentence of 4.2 is: > However, it SHOULD operate its own DHCP(v4) server handing out > [RFC1918 ] address space = (e.g., 192.168.0.0/16) to hosts in the home. >=20 > And above, you have suggested a correction which means the there is a = NAT44 function in the DS-Lite CE device: >=20 > DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 = packets (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation). >=20 > So can you help me, where it is done? [if -=20 (In addition to Ole=E2=80=99s comment) For DSLite, the AFTR is doing the stateful NAT44 function and the CPE is = just acting as a router. The CPE is handing out private addresses to = clients on its LAN side, but doesn=E2=80=99t need to NAT these - they = just need to be unique for that customer=E2=80=99s home network (so that = traffic can be routed by the CPE to the correct host). So the CPE takes = the private addressed v4 traffic, encapsulates it and sends it to the = AFTR. What is unique at the AFTR is the source v6 address of the B4. When a = customer v4 packet arrives, the AFTR does the NAT44 and this v6 B4 = address is stored alongside the NAT44 in the NAT state table. This means = many customers can source from e.g. 192.168.1.10 and return traffic can = be routed back to the right CPE via the 4 in 6 softwire.]=20 >=20 >> 4, "Another consequence is that the solutions using double = translation can carry only TCP, UDP or ICMP over IP, when they are used = with IPv4 address sharing". >>=20 >> There are other protocols that have layer-4 ports (e.g. SCTP). In = previous softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been = used, suggested re-word: >>=20 >> "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation = can only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and ICMP when = they are used with IPv4 address sharing" >=20 > Thank you very much for pointing it out and also for suggesting a = better wording. I have changed it as you recommended. >=20 >> 5, RFC8114 describes 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would = be worth mentioning this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to = perform encapsulation of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast = addresses (a subset of the RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that = this works with clients implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I = haven't tested it, but I would assume that a MAP-E BR could be = configured to do the same. >=20 > I would be happy to include your results. If you have already = published them, we can cite them.=20 >=20 > Could you put down you experience in few paragraph or even a full = (sub)section, which we could include?=20 [if - I=E2=80=99ll propose some text for this. Are you thinking of = including a section on handling multicast?] >=20 >>=20 >> 3.1.1 >> 1, This states that XLAT without as dedicated translation /64 may = have triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 stateless in the CPE and NAT64 = stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the = worst case=E2=80=99 (although please see above regarding this), but the = triple NAT for 464XLAT is then described as less problematic due to the = distribution of state to CPEs. This seems inconsistent in evaluation. >>=20 >=20 > Yes, it was deliberately wrong. I have deleted the sentence:=20 > "The worst case is DS-Lite, which is also doing double stateful = translation (NAT44 at the CE and NAT44 at the AFTR). " >=20 >>=20 >> 3.1.2 >> See comment about DSLite above. >>=20 >=20 > Correction is pending. We should clarify where NAT44 is done on the CE = side. >=20 >>=20 >> 3.1.3 >> 1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID address construction as MAP, but does not = use the 'general' MAP algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses. >=20 > Do you recommend it as a text to be added as is? If yes, please = specify after which sentence.=20 [if - I can propose some text for this.] >=20 >> 2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single contiguous block of ports per = client (a-bits=3D0). WKPs are excluded (if required) through = provisioning. MAP (by default) uses a-bits=3D6, meaning that a client's = total ports are distributed across the total port space, and the WKPs = are excluded from allocation to any customer. One by product of this is = that the netfilter problem (only using the first port set for NAPT, = noted in section 3.2) is not experienced in a lw4o6 deployment. >>=20 >> 3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to clients = is worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the deployment. When = a full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR functions as >> in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer performs A+P based routing for that = client. This means that non port-aware protocols can be routed. As this = can be configured on a per-client basis, if a customer reports a problem = with a particular application, they can be re-provisioned with a full = address. >>=20 >>=20 >> 3.2=20 >> 1, Port sizes for clients for MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not = fixed. A CGN's port block allocation policy is certainly easier to = change, but this is not something that is done regularly: >> lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, so it is possible to = change the port block size for single or multiple clients and distribute = this to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets renewed. >> A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered in the domain) can be = redimensioned to change the client's port space. Again, deploy time = would be in line with DHCPv6 timers. >>=20 >> 2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the Miy2010 = reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references section? >=20 > Yes this is a problem. (As I am an IEICE member, and I could download = the paper, this is why I was not aware of this problem.) >=20 > I have just asked the author (Shin Miyakawa) in a message through = ResearchGate to share a public copy of his paper. I hope that he will do = so soon.=20 >=20 > Meanwhile, I will send you a copy of it in a private mail in a few = minutes. (I think I may not send it to the mailing list.) [if - Thanks] >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > G=C3=A1bor >=20 >> 3, Do you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was = done, and specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection multiplexing = described in section 3.2 was used? >>=20 >>=20 >> 3.3 >> 1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, as = it=E2=80=99s not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 = servers with IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It=E2=80=99s also worth describing = whether making the server externally accessible can be configured purely = by the customer, and which would need configuration by the operator in = centralised infrastructure. >>=20 >> 2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, so it is possible to run = externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. Generally, these will = not be the WKP ports, unless those are being distributed for use by = clients. But customer can configure a server to be run on a higher port = (taken from the allocated block) then port translated (if needed) to = e.g. 443. >>=20 >> 3, PCP would be worth including here. >>=20 >>=20 >> 3.4 Support and implementations >> 1, As NetFilter in the CPE is mentioned, It might be good to include = information about FOSS operator side implementations as well. Off the = top of my head: >>=20 >> MAP-BR, lwAFTR, CGN - VPP/fd.io = https://gerrit.fd.io/r/#/admin/projects/ = >> lwAFTR - https://github.com/Igalia/snabb = >> DSLite AFTR https://www.isc.org/downloads/ = >>=20 >>=20 >> 3.6 Load Sharing >> 1, This section needs to discuss more about state table = synchronisation between cluster members for stateful solutions as this = is the major bottleneck in scaling such solutions (and whether they can = support asymmetric v4 >> and v6 paths through the cluster). >>=20 >> 2, Not sure if this is the right section, but there is also a = consideration about geographical resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. in = a 1+1 resilience model, the size of public IPv4 address pools need to be = scaled to allow for handling all customer traffic in event of a site = failure). Stateless solutions can be more efficient here as they can = have a common IPv4 range accessible via multiple geographical locations. >>=20 >>=20 >> 3.7 Logging >> 1, I think that a lot more needs to be said on this topic. It also = needs to be weighed against points made in other parts of the document. = E.g., in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic nature of port = allocation >> in a CGN to allow for more flexible port allocations, but there is a = cost in logging overhead. Having first hand experience of a network that = does CGN per-flow logging to comply with local legal requirements, this = can be a major consideration. In the total cost of the solution, the CGN = infrastructure was a fraction of the logging and storage costs. >>=20 >>=20 >> In addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the = document should discuss: >> IPv6 and IPv4 address planning / topology independence >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_9A374FF4-37ED-4E6D-8E31-3F266EB0BC88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Gabor,

Please see = inline below.

Thanks,
Ian

On 12. = Nov 2018, at 11:18, Lencse G=C3=A1bor <lencse@hit.bme.hu> = wrote:

=20 =20
Dear Ian Farrer,

Thank you very much for reviewing our draft.

Please see my answers inline. (I was too busy last week, and even now, I will be able to answer you only partially, I ask your patience regarding the rest parts.)

11/8/2018 8:47 AM keltez=C3=A9ssel, ianfarrer@gmx.com =C3=ADrta:
Hi,

Thanks for tackling this task. It=E2=80=99s really = useful to document the characteristics of the different mechanisms now there=E2=80=99s some real experience of them.

As promised in v6ops on Monday, here=E2=80=99s a = review of the draft.

Thanks,
Ian

2.1
1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double NAT, it=E2=80=99s worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 = and MAP-E are single NAT44.

Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to break the train of thought as follows:

DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets (and use single = NAT44 at the CE before doing = encapsulation).

[if - Well, = they are all mechanisms that have a single NAT44 in them, but lw4o6 and = MAP-E do NAT in the CPE, and DSLite has it in the AFTR]



2, Number of bytes overhead difference is certainly worth mentioning, but in practice, I'm not sure it's that much of a differentiator. IME 1500-bytes is the magic number for a lot of network's MTUs (especially for backhaul). If the network supports more than this then it's likely to be for at least 2k, so 1520 vs 1540 payload differences are unlikely to pose a real problem.

Yes, of course, except for rare cases, the different is only significant if it causes fragmentation.

[if - A = more general point that=E2=80=99s worth making is that if you can=E2=80=99= t backhaul the traffic without fragmentation (whatever the additional = overhead), then really none of these solutions are a good fit for you. = RFC7597, Sec 8.3.1 already states this, but as it=E2=80=99s a common = consideration for all of these mechanisms, it=E2=80=99s worth = emphasising.]


3, DSLite doesn't do double translation (RFC6333 sec 4.2). The B4 only does encapsulation of the privately addressed traffic into v6. The AFTR uses the unique v6 B4 source address to track the flows and does stateful = NAT44.

Yes, you are right, it is explicitly stated in 4.2 that:

   A DS-Lite CPE SHOULD NOT operate a NAT =
function between an internal
   interface and a B4 interface, as the NAT function will be performed
   by the AFTR in the service provider's network.  This will avoid
   accidentally operating in a double-NAT environment.

However,  a stateful NAT44 has to be done somewhere from the user's private address range to one of the addresses in 192.0.0.x/29. The next sentence of 4.2 is:
   However, it SHOULD operate its own =
DHCP(v4) server handing out
   [RFC1918] address =
space (e.g., 192.168.0.0/16) to hosts in the home.

And above, you have suggested a correction which means the there is a NAT44 function in the DS-Lite CE device:

DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets (and use single NAT44= at the CE before doing encapsulation).

So can you help me, where it is done?

[if - 
(In addition to Ole=E2=80=99s = comment)

For DSLite, the AFTR is = doing the stateful NAT44 function and the CPE is just acting as a = router. The CPE is handing out private addresses to clients on its LAN = side, but doesn=E2=80=99t need to NAT these - they just need to be = unique for that customer=E2=80=99s home network (so that traffic can be = routed by the CPE to the correct host). So the CPE takes the private = addressed v4 traffic, encapsulates it and sends it to the = AFTR.

What is unique at the AFTR is = the source v6 address of the B4. When a customer v4 packet arrives, the = AFTR does the NAT44 and this v6 B4 address is stored alongside the NAT44 = in the NAT state table. This means many customers can source from e.g. = 192.168.1.10 and return traffic can be routed back to the right CPE via = the 4 in 6 softwire.] 
4, "Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation can carry only TCP, UDP or ICMP over IP, when they are used with IPv4 address sharing".

There are other protocols that have layer-4 = ports (e.g. SCTP). In previous softwire docs, the term 'port-aware IP protocols' has been used, suggested re-word:

"Another consequence is that the solutions using double translation can only carry port-aware IP protocols (e.g. TCP, UDP) and ICMP when  they are used with IPv4 = address sharing"

Thank you very much for pointing it out and also for suggesting a better wording. I have changed it as you recommended.

5, RFC8114 describes 4in6 multicast using encapsulation, so it would be worth mentioning this. Also, we've set up an lwAFTR with rules to perform encapsulation of IPv4 multicast to send to v6 multicast addresses (a subset of the RFC8114 functionality) and can confirm that this works with clients implementing IGMPv2/MLDv2 interworking. I haven't tested it, but I would assume that a MAP-E BR could be configured to do the same.

I would be happy to include your results. If you have already published them, we can cite them.

Could you put down you experience in few paragraph or even a full (sub)section, which we could include?

[if - = I=E2=80=99ll propose some text for this. Are you thinking of including a = section on handling multicast?]



3.1.1
1, This states that XLAT without as dedicated translation /64 may have triple NAT (NAT44 stateful, NAT64 stateless in the CPE and NAT64 stateful in the PLAT). In section 2.1, DSLite with dual-NAT is 'the worst case=E2=80=99 (although please see above regarding this), but the triple NAT for 464XLAT is then described as less problematic due to the distribution of state to CPEs. This seems inconsistent in evaluation.


Yes, it was deliberately wrong. I have deleted the sentence:
"The worst case is = DS-Lite, which is also doing double stateful translation (NAT44 at the CE and NAT44 at the AFTR). "


3.1.2
See comment about DSLite above.


Correction is pending. We should clarify where NAT44 is done on the CE side.


3.1.3
1, lw4o6 uses the same PSID address construction as MAP, but does not use the 'general' MAP algorithm linking the v4 and v6 addresses.

Do you recommend it as a text to be added as is? If yes, please specify after which sentence.

[if - I = can propose some text for this.]


2, lw4o6 uses (by default) a single contiguous block of ports per client (a-bits=3D0). WKPs are excluded (if required) through provisioning. MAP (by default) uses a-bits=3D6, meaning that a client's total ports are = distributed across the total port space, and the WKPs are excluded from allocation to any customer. One by product of this is that the netfilter problem (only using the first port set for NAPT, noted in section 3.2) is not experienced in a lw4o6 deployment.

3, The last paragraph about allocating full IP addresses to clients is worth extending, as it adds some flexibility to the deployment. When a full address is allocated for a client, the lwAFTR functions as
in RFC7040 - i.e. it no longer performs A+P = based routing for that client. This means that non port-aware protocols can be routed. As this can be configured on a per-client basis, if a customer reports a problem with a particular application, they can be re-provisioned with a full address.


3.2 
1, Port sizes for clients for MAP/lw4o6 are predetermined, but not fixed. A CGN's port block allocation policy is certainly easier to change, but this is not something that is done regularly:
  • lw4o6 clients are provisioned individually, = so it is possible to change the port block size for single or multiple clients and distribute this to clients as quickly as their DHCPv6 gets renewed.
  • A MAP domain (and all of the clients covered = in the domain) can be redimensioned to change the client's port space. Again, deploy time would be in line with DHCPv6 timers.

2, I was unable to find a publicly available version of the Miy2010 reference. Can you provide a link to it in the references section?

Yes this is a problem. (As I am an IEICE member, and I could download the paper, this is why I was not aware of this problem.)

I have just asked the author (Shin Miyakawa) in a message through ResearchGate to share a public copy of his paper. I hope that he will do so soon.

Meanwhile, I will send you a copy of it in a private mail in a few minutes. (I think I may not send it to the mailing list.)

[if - = Thanks]


Best regards,

G=C3=A1bor

3, Do you have any information about how the testing in Miy2010 was done, and specifically if the NetFilter 3-tuple connection multiplexing described in section 3.2 was used?


3.3
1, The scope of this section needs some further explanation, as it=E2=80=99s not clear about whether this is describing IPv4 or IPv6 servers with IPv4 or IPv6 clients. It=E2=80=99s also worth describing whether making the server externally accessible can be configured purely by the customer, and which would need configuration by the operator in centralised infrastructure.

2, MAP & lw4o6 both always expose L4 ports, = so it is possible to run externally IPv4 services to IPv4 clients on these. Generally, these will not be the WKP ports, unless those are being distributed for use by clients. But customer can configure a server to be run on a higher port (taken from the allocated block) then port translated (if needed) to e.g. 443.

3, PCP would be worth including here.


3.4 Support and implementations
1, As NetFilter in the CPE is mentioned, It = might be good to include information about FOSS operator side implementations as well. Off the top of my head:

MAP-BR, lwAFTR, CGN - VPP/fd.io =  https://gerrit.fd.io/r/#/admin/projects/
lwAFTR - https://github.com/Igalia/snabb
DSLite AFTR https://www.isc.org/downloads/


3.6 Load Sharing
1, This section needs to discuss more about state table synchronisation between cluster members for stateful solutions as this is the major bottleneck in scaling such solutions (and whether they can support asymmetric v4
and v6 paths through the cluster).

2, Not sure if this is the right section, but there is also a consideration about geographical resilience for CGN deployments (i.e. in a 1+1 resilience model, the size of public IPv4 address pools need to be scaled to allow for handling all customer traffic in event of a site failure). Stateless solutions can be more efficient here as they can have a common IPv4 range accessible via multiple geographical locations.


3.7 Logging
1, I think that a lot more needs to be said on this topic. It also needs to be weighed against points made in other parts of the document. E.g., in section 3.2, yes you can use the dynamic nature of port allocation
in a CGN to allow for more flexible port allocations, but there is a cost in logging overhead. Having first hand experience of a network that does CGN per-flow logging to comply with local legal requirements, this can be a major consideration. In the total cost of the solution, the CGN infrastructure was a fraction of the logging and storage costs.


In addition, there are a couple of additional topics that the document should discuss:
  • IPv6 and IPv4 address planning / topology independence





_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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I have added it in parenthesis not to brea= k > the train of thought as follows: > > DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packets > (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation). > > > > So this is not correct. > Given the errors and misconceptions=E2=80=A6 is this document going to mu= ddy the > waters more than it clears it up? > Trying to restate what existing specifications already say, might not > help. Unless you are really sure you can get it right. > > DS-lite: CE only encaps private IPv4 into IPv6, no NAT, tunnels to a > centralized NAT > MAP-E: CE does port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel > concentrator > LW46: CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel > concentrator > MAP-T CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44, SIIT to IPv6 into a > centralized concentrator that SIIT from IPv6 to IPv4. > 464XLAT: CE does an optional stateful NAT44 into a stateless NAT46 into a > centralized CGN doing NAT64. > > > Best regards, > Ole > As Ole noted, it is important to =E2=80=9Cget it right=E2=80=9D. He was al= luding to =E2=80=9Cfacts=E2=80=9D, but the facts paint an opinionated picture. Unfortunately, =E2=80=9Cget it right=E2=80=9D is not possible for all valid= opinions of =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D. For example, i would say it does not matter if we= NAT ipv4 literals 15 times, the more pain these legacy apps feel , the better. Furthermore, i would color the problem of 2x or 3x translation as in the low single digits since most major consumer internet things are ipv6 e2e or at least friendly towards single translation with dns64.... This I-D would benefit from excluding editorial and weighting of value attributes from RFC authors included in subject being scored. A Survey of =E2=80=9Cnetwork operator satisfaction=E2=80=9D might be more interesting. = For example, we heard on this list from a LW4o6 operator in Greece that is considering abandoning the effort https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg30121.html Also reported above, stateful nat44 is cheaper than stateless LW4o6. Normally, this mailer says stateless is less expensive ... This document is unlikely achieve concensus if it tries to favor one over the other.... and someone will always believe their approach is the best. So, the path via WG might not be best, AD sponsored may allow you a clearer path with less cat hearding. The ietf has many of these competing technologies across many fields, we see them all the time. Softwire and Locator-ID split were especially painful for those involved ... because of so many good ideas. The market decides in the end. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --000000000000410c5a057a7a1147 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon,= Nov 12, 2018 at 2:57 AM Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>> 1, As it's mentioned that MAP-T and 4646XLAT use double N= AT, it=E2=80=99s worth mentioning that DSLite, lw4o6 and MAP-E are single N= AT44.
>
> Thank you for mentioning it. I have added it in parenthesis not to bre= ak the train of thought as follows:
> DS-Lite, lw4o6 and MAP-E encapsulate the IPv4 packets into IPv6 packet= s (and use single NAT44 at the CE before doing encapsulation).
>

So this is not correct.
Given the errors and misconceptions=E2=80=A6 is this document going to mudd= y the waters more than it clears it up?
Trying to restate what existing specifications already say, might not help.= Unless you are really sure you can get it right.

DS-lite: CE only encaps private IPv4 into IPv6, no NAT, tunnels to a centra= lized NAT
MAP-E: CE does port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel conce= ntrator
LW46: CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44 and tunnels to a tunnel conc= entrator
MAP-T CE does a port-restricted stateful NAT44, SIIT to IPv6 into a central= ized concentrator that SIIT from IPv6 to IPv4.
464XLAT: CE does an optional stateful NAT44 into a stateless NAT46 into a c= entralized CGN doing NAT64.


Best regards,
Ole

As Ole =C2=A0not= ed, it is important to =E2=80=9Cget it right=E2=80=9D. He was alluding to = =E2=80=9Cfacts=E2=80=9D, but the facts paint an opinionated picture.=C2=A0<= /div>

Unfortunately, =E2=80=9C= get it right=E2=80=9D is not possible for all valid opinions of =E2=80=9Cri= ght=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 For example, i would say it does not matter if we NAT i= pv4 literals 15 times, the more pain these legacy apps feel , the better.= =C2=A0 Furthermore, i would color the problem of 2x or 3x translation as in= the low single digits since most major consumer internet things are ipv6 e= 2e or
at least friendly towards single translation w= ith dns64....

This I-D w= ould benefit from excluding editorial and weighting of value attributes fro= m RFC authors included in subject being scored.=C2=A0 A Survey of =E2=80=9C= network operator satisfaction=E2=80=9D might be more interesting. For examp= le, we heard on this list from a LW4o6 operator in Greece that is consideri= ng abandoning the effort


--000000000000410c5a057a7a1147-- From nobody Mon Nov 12 08:31:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C89130DF2 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:31:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hqzOb_kHCR4 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8997E12F1AC for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97F88FECBE6E; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE4B98DB4F; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:31:11 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:31:11 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> To: Ca By X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A__Review_of_dr?= =?utf-8?q?aft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:31:16 -0000 > The market decides in the end.=20 3,4,5 years down the line. I have seen no indication that the market has = decided anything. It=E2=80=99s perfectly possibly that it never will. Cheers, Ole From nobody Mon Nov 12 08:43:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED13130EBD for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:43:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wybjq3USaZNL for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D625F130E92 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:43:05 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wACGgxvW084211 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:43:00 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Ole Troan Cc: Ca By , v6ops@ietf.org References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:42:58 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A_Review_of_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:43:13 -0000 Ole Troan wrote on 12/11/2018 16:31: >> The market decides in the end. > > 3,4,5 years down the line. I have seen no indication that the market has decided anything. > It’s perfectly possibly that it never will. It already has. SIP is hugely popular, despite being crippled by encoding endpoint information inside the transport stream. This is no worse than ipv4 literals. Nick From nobody Mon Nov 12 08:46:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B0B130E41 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:46:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WvoGCX5FntO0 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8BBE130E1D for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.109] (c-73-202-177-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.202.177.209]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wACGkJpr040978; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:46:20 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host c-73-202-177-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.202.177.209] claimed to be [192.168.0.109] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) From: Joel Jaeggli In-Reply-To: <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:46:14 -0800 Cc: Ca By , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <25D2C1C1-9230-43DA-9DBD-CFA5915B4730@bogus.com> References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A__Review_of_dr?= =?utf-8?q?aft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:46:25 -0000 > On Nov 12, 2018, at 08:31, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 >> The market decides in the end.=20 >=20 > 3,4,5 years down the line. I have seen no indication that the market = has decided anything. > It=E2=80=99s perfectly possibly that it never will. It could be that it doesn=E2=80=99t matter. You either make your app = work over whatever transport is available to you, or you don=E2=80=99t. > Cheers, > Ole >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 12 09:02:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F61128CB7 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:02:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xdxFFFdKckCf for ; 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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:02:10 +0000 Received: from BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.74.57) by CY1NAM02FT036.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.75.124) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.11 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:02:10 +0000 Received: from BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2181:7a6:5f21:c399]) by BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2181:7a6:5f21:c399%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:02:10 +0000 From: Kristian McColm To: Nick Hilliard , Ole Troan CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3Y2b3BzXSAgTm90IGludmVudGVkIGhlcmUg4oCUUmU6IFJldmlldyBvZiBk?= =?utf-8?Q?raft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= Thread-Index: AQHUeqbaf2zi8enlVEq+xWsIQOK3MKVMXEZA Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:02:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:420178844F21CDEAB43B4189500B92063E12D151567B238878FBEAAD1553785A; 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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390040)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:CY1NAM02HT160; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY1NAM02HT160: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:CY1NAM02HT160; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1NAM02HT160; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Ij0Q5RBVUnXWUm/haUX8W1K7B7PjgZb0IlOaXnQE/KJxQrcsPBexgBZ+AOxzLF9U Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: c001924d-3e68-4f40-89c2-901a49278da7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3d962e53-6cb6-4ab2-3b9f-08d648c0961a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: c001924d-3e68-4f40-89c2-901a49278da7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Nov 2018 17:02:10.8101 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1NAM02HT160 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A_Review_of_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:02:14 -0000 WWVhLCBhbmQgYWxsIFZvTFRFIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBJIHdvcmsgd2l0aCB1c2VkIG5hdGl2 ZSBJUHY2IGZyb20gdGhlIGdldCBnbyB0byBwcmV2ZW50IHByb2JsZW1zIGluaGVyZW50IGluIHRo ZSBwcm90b2NvbCB0aGF0IGNhbid0IGJlIG92ZXJjb21lIHdpdGhvdXQgdXNpbmcgU1RVTi9UVVJO L0lDRS8uLi4gb3IgQUxHcyBvbiB0aGUgdHJhbnNsYXRpb24gbWVjaGFuaXNtcy4NCg0KQ29uc2Vx dWVudGx5LCBJIGRvbuKAmXQgdGhpbmsgdGhlcmUncyBtdWNoIHZhbHVlIGluIHN1cHBvcnRpbmcg U0lQIDZ0bzQgc2luY2UgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIGludHJvZHVjZXMgc28gbWFueSBjaGFsbGVuZ2Vz IGl0c2VsZiwgZXNwZWNpYWxseSB3aGVuIFRMUyBpcyBlbmFibGVkLiBUaGUgY2xlYXIgcGF0aCBm b3IgU0lQIGlzIG5hdGl2ZSBJUHY2IHN1cHBvcnQuIEl0J3MgZmFyIGVhc2llciB0aGFuIHRoZSBh bHRlcm5hdGl2ZXMgaW1vLg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogdjZv cHMgW21haWx0bzp2Nm9wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTmljayBIaWxs aWFyZA0KU2VudDogTm92ZW1iZXIgMTIsIDIwMTggMTE6NDMNClRvOiBPbGUgVHJvYW4gPG90cm9h bkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnPg0KQ2M6IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Y2b3Bz XSBOb3QgaW52ZW50ZWQgaGVyZSDigJRSZTogUmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWxtaHAtdjZvcHMtdHJh bnNpdGlvbi1jb21wYXJpc29uLTAxDQoNCk9sZSBUcm9hbiB3cm90ZSBvbiAxMi8xMS8yMDE4IDE2 OjMxOg0KPj4gICBUaGUgbWFya2V0IGRlY2lkZXMgaW4gdGhlIGVuZC4NCj4gDQo+IDMsNCw1IHll YXJzIGRvd24gdGhlIGxpbmUuIEkgaGF2ZSBzZWVuIG5vIGluZGljYXRpb24gdGhhdCB0aGUgbWFy a2V0IGhhcyBkZWNpZGVkIGFueXRoaW5nLg0KPiBJdOKAmXMgcGVyZmVjdGx5IHBvc3NpYmx5IHRo YXQgaXQgbmV2ZXIgd2lsbC4NCg0KSXQgYWxyZWFkeSBoYXMuICBTSVAgaXMgaHVnZWx5IHBvcHVs YXIsIGRlc3BpdGUgYmVpbmcgY3JpcHBsZWQgYnkgZW5jb2RpbmcgZW5kcG9pbnQgaW5mb3JtYXRp b24gaW5zaWRlIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQgc3RyZWFtLiAgVGhpcyBpcyBubyB3b3JzZSB0aGFuIGlw djQgbGl0ZXJhbHMuDQoNCk5pY2sNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCnY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 12 09:05:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3DA1294D0 for ; 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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:05:01 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Kristian McColm Cc: Ole Troan , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <79e36764-dd29-bfea-0264-f1d2b406632a@foobar.org> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:04:59 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A_Review_of_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:05:10 -0000 Kristian McColm wrote on 12/11/2018 17:02: > Consequently, I don’t think there's much value in supporting SIP 6to4 > since the protocol introduces so many challenges itself, especially > when TLS is enabled. The clear path for SIP is native IPv6 support. > It's far easier than the alternatives imo. for sure, but this is working around the problem rather than curing it. SIP perpetuates the requirement for ALGs for some services. Nick From nobody Mon Nov 12 09:08:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B9E130DF2 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8CjTDHoQYpm for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc29.google.com (mail-yw1-xc29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8E1612896A for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc29.google.com with SMTP id c126-v6so4619247ywd.8 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v//EU+Q8G9T/9hm4foktJTtgfduoTIHCgB0tXh7dF+o=; b=rREkYFmWfWsgNRKS+99yGVzW8VxiB8GhGnE9poqqjk67KK+56uQAENt6gDvfFLU2BY RbkXZbgctHtc76dHQVp4IdpX96cN3lxgC8m9P5EC1US+Jo56+aHBTkkLCWoF7zGUD1/X u1mh33/ECrKwIIdGPGX0oFo7Y5z/RQJw/WLyPcMvrRO9G4PmbIsmxjDC3B9slimhvJ3Q ObYh70h4AzTzLQMZ0cF5DqcrmJIowwxqyxzYgb8c5lmDdFdErwT9mux3stC9ssFps/Sw tJeq41l2LpQO+qw4x0KgbvD50kIpIgeiQZBi8Qfsx0mIKkx/jLGZRLhQrMToiWmYgZ1z dDrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v//EU+Q8G9T/9hm4foktJTtgfduoTIHCgB0tXh7dF+o=; b=kNOSqR81ZD0j4Xp2pLWtrygo/KFjnMVAzuPDlBeqXB++HmHWzYltu+WGgCKNmJh/xL ViQbA1oZRdIv3OQ9D3QvcJEM2FLg7gA++iXPg2bqwoHCNNe7pOXU1V4im8UXc6h7agI5 PVOiR/jN2fPVNoAwHLXbFfY2Zki3UVHXq5RD/RWZcju2nMKB96s+L/TMYxewb1SEzdeA FvhIaA/GpQaV0qbmxw6x1tbVhAj5Ahz+fFQDDy68xe6b5aZLz5Hbw4GK/CbUr9ycXLPA A0y+VXA0ufsBqmiNmDJJo7InmxSap6drT3xyLDS1Jru1b9fr77t1qKy5yHxc2RoBdbrM i8aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJ3X3s4OCPGfwf5r0Rx7SkXVMjCSjOZGWyto5U8tFvnWr3OeteG eDQICTXN4XOKnGVUvjfKAm4xQccJjZyjPtFgFw0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f/V4bxrw83hjkcKL/It3lFD5/fFsbHT3wyT12+QCl05gSzkYowW90Bev7nugVCbs7RRBG5E8rKtqQTTHY1AAo= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5508:: with SMTP id j8mr482750ywb.226.1542042523893; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> <3F1FC555-12A1-4F9A-89E0-ACA4468A8B02@employees.org> <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <691b6cc0-3522-fbbb-1d10-88a9bec3c53d@foobar.org> From: Ca By Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:08:32 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Ole Troan , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd8328057a7ac028" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A_Review_of_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:08:46 -0000 --000000000000dd8328057a7ac028 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:43 AM Nick Hilliard wrote: > Ole Troan wrote on 12/11/2018 16:31: > >> The market decides in the end. > > > > 3,4,5 years down the line. I have seen no indication that the market ha= s > decided anything. > > It=E2=80=99s perfectly possibly that it never will. > > It already has. SIP is hugely popular, despite being crippled by > encoding endpoint information inside the transport stream. Hugely popular is a relative term I do not believe your average consumer uses unmolested SIP over the internet. I do believe your average telephony engineer is only willing to engage with SIP using an SBC / B2BUA to smooth out the kinks. WebRTC on the other hand is hugely popular with consumers, and has goodies like stun and turn built in to the spec This is no > worse than ipv4 literals. > > Nick > > --000000000000dd8328057a7ac028 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon,= Nov 12, 2018 at 8:43 AM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
O= le Troan wrote on 12/11/2018 16:31:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The market decides in the end.
>
> 3,4,5 years down the line. I have seen no indication that the market h= as decided anything.
> It=E2=80=99s perfectly possibly that it never will.

It already has.=C2=A0 SIP is hugely popular, despite being crippled by
encoding endpoint information inside the transport stream.=C2=A0

Hugely popular is a relati= ve term

I do not believe= your average consumer uses unmolested SIP over the internet.=C2=A0

I do believe your average telep= hony engineer is only willing to engage with SIP using an SBC / B2BUA to sm= ooth out the kinks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0WebRTC on the other hand is hugely popular with consumers, and has = goodies like stun and turn built in to the spec

=


This is no
worse than ipv4 literals.

Nick

--000000000000dd8328057a7ac028-- From nobody Mon Nov 12 09:19:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4BC130E64 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:19:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gL-LNpoNjPC9 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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(10.152.89.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:19:14 +0000 Received: from BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.88.53) by SN1NAM04FT029.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.88.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:19:14 +0000 Received: from BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2181:7a6:5f21:c399]) by BN6PR04MB0932.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2181:7a6:5f21:c399%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:19:14 +0000 From: Kristian McColm To: Nick Hilliard , Kristian McColm CC: Ole Troan , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3Y2b3BzXSBOb3QgaW52ZW50ZWQgaGVyZSDigJRSZTogUmV2aWV3IG9mIGRy?= =?utf-8?Q?aft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= Thread-Index: AQHUeqncKKR6HidhEEKOS5+5dw1XW6VMX8yg Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:19:14 +0000 Message-ID: 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x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:SN1NAM04HT188; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:SN1NAM04HT188; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: b8uZKIpW2X/6uN/IJsCx3oAl5MJXtJZUIYB8RiVjzLuL4yXHI3mKWrrH5W0DGq2R Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: c001924d-3e68-4f40-89c2-901a49278da7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9eea11de-439e-4a2b-d901-08d648c2f7f9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: c001924d-3e68-4f40-89c2-901a49278da7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Nov 2018 17:19:14.0236 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1NAM04HT188 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A_Review_of_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:19:17 -0000 SWYgYnkgdGhhdCB5b3UgbWVhbiB3b3JraW5nIGFyb3VuZCB0aGUgY2hhbGxlbmdlcyBpbmhlcmVu dCBpbiBTSVAgcHJvdG9jb2wgYnkgZGVwbG95aW5nIG5hdGl2ZSBJUHY2IEknbSBmaW5lIHdpdGgg dGhhdCwgYW5kIHNvIGFyZSB0aGUgbW9iaWxlIG9wZXJhdG9ycyBkZXBsb3lpbmcgVm9MVEUuIElm IHlvdSB3YW50IDZ0bzQgdGhlbiB5b3UgaGF2ZSB0aGUgb3B0aW9uIG9mIFNUVU4vVFVSTiBldGMg d2hpY2ggaXRzZWxmIGlzIGFsc28ganVzdCBhIHdvcmthcm91bmQgZm9yIHByb3RvY29sIGxpbWl0 YXRpb25zIGlmIHlvdSBhc2sgbWUuDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiBOaWNrIEhpbGxpYXJkIFttYWlsdG86bmlja0Bmb29iYXIub3JnXSANClNlbnQ6IE5vdmVtYmVy IDEyLCAyMDE4IDEyOjA1DQpUbzogS3Jpc3RpYW4gTWNDb2xtIDxrcmlzdGlhbm1jY29sbUBob3Rt YWlsLmNvbT4NCkNjOiBPbGUgVHJvYW4gPG90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnPjsgdjZvcHNAaWV0 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154204779088.4322.2906441837783394858.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:36:30 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Milestones changed for v6ops WG X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:36:31 -0000 Deleted milestone "Describe routing choices and trade-offs for enterprise and service provider networks". Changed milestone "File recommendation on how to build a commercial WiFi network", resolved as "Done". Changed milestone "Prefix for use by IPv4/IPv6 translators in a network", resolved as "Done". Deleted milestone "Advice on use of ULAs in networks". Changed milestone "Update RFC 7084 (IPv6 CE Requirements)", resolved as "Done". Changed milestone "Update RFC 6555 with experience", resolved as "Done". Deleted milestone "Requirements for IPv6 Routers in a general purpose network". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/about/ From nobody Mon Nov 12 23:57:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA01112D4E6; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:56:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6GOglKjfvXK; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0F191252B7; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (77.16.70.189.tmi.telenormobil.no [77.16.70.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3750FECBE42; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 07:56:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A839931DC; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:56:50 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:56:50 +0100 Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 07:56:58 -0000 Fred, >>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am sure = it would consume more resources at router to support DHCPv6 >> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>=20 >> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >=20 > So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge refers to = the > selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. Is that = what > you were meaning to say? Sure. The value proposition of something new, has to be different than = =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D = of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a lot = more interesting to talk about. Cheers, Ole= From nobody Tue Nov 13 00:18:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400AA130DD6 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 00:18:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNg54gCz66RX for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 00:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogstar.hit.bme.hu (frogstar.hit.bme.hu [IPv6:2001:738:2001:4020::2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F3CC130DC1 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 00:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (host-79-121-41-91.kabelnet.hu [79.121.41.91]) (authenticated bits=0) by frogstar.hit.bme.hu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wAD8ITHM026199 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:18:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lencse@hit.bme.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: frogstar.hit.bme.hu: Host host-79-121-41-91.kabelnet.hu [79.121.41.91] claimed to be [192.168.1.119] To: Ca By Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <6c5444ef-2893-22cb-c983-c0a66456b86f@hit.bme.hu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=c3=a1bor?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:18:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EC676B7281B8FED1C334D7A3" Content-Language: en-US X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.1 at frogstar.hit.bme.hu X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: pass (frogstar.hit.bme.hu: authenticated connection) receiver=frogstar.hit.bme.hu; client-ip=79.121.41.91; helo=[192.168.1.119]; envelope-from=lencse@hit.bme.hu; x-software=spfmilter 2.001 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.2.10; X-DCC--Metrics: frogstar.hit.bme.hu; whitelist X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 152.66.248.44 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Not_invented_here_=E2=80=94Re=3A__Review_of_dr?= =?utf-8?q?aft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-01?= X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:18:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EC676B7281B8FED1C334D7A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Cameron, > This document is unlikely achieve concensus if it tries to favor one > over the other.... and someone will always believe their approach is > the best. So, the path via WG might not be best, AD sponsored may > allow you a clearer path with less cat hearding. > Thank you very much for mentioning this. As we all have our "glasses" influenced by our previous experience (or lack of it) with one or the other IPv6 transition technologies, I think it can be beneficial for a fair comparison if many v6ops members review and comment our draft. Under a "fair comparison" I mean that we acknowledge all the pros and cons of each studied technology and not try to favor one over the other. In the current phase, we are discussing only our knowledge (and yes, sometimes our beliefs or prejudices) about the five technologies. However, I hope to be able to present measurement results in the near future. I also expect that some people will repeat our measurements to check our results. My aim is to put together a comparison, which does not declare winners and losers amount the technologies, but helps the operators in selecting the one that suits their specific needs the best. (And thus the choice will be different for different needs.) I am aware of the risk that our draft may not be published as an RFC if we do not achieve a rough consensus. I take this risk for the greater benefit of a balanced and well founded document, which is a great value for me. Why? I'm coming from academic background. I can publish a paper in a good reputation journal (e.g. with high impact factor), if I can convince 2-3 reviewers and the editor. For example, I have recently published the following paper: G. Lencse and Y. Kadobayashi, "Benchmarking DNS64 Implementations: Theory and Practice", /Computer Communications/ (Elsevier), vol. 127, no. 1, pp. 61-74, September 1, 2018, DOI: 10.1016/j.comcom.2018.05.005 Review version is freely available: http://www.hit.bme.hu/~lencse/publications/ECC-2018-DNS64-BM-for-review.pdf I did all my best when doing the measurements, and I was satisfied with the results. However, later on, when I was working on benchmarking different authoritative DNS server implementations, I have noticed that the method I used for switching off and on the CPU cores, caused scattered results at higher query rates (e.g. 100-200kqps). I plan to repeat some of my DNS64 measurements to check whether or not it was this improper method that caused the scattered results of Unbound. (That would significantly influence some of the conclusions of the paper.) I think this is a good example, why I consider the review of v6ops list members highly valuable. :-) Best regards, Gábor --------------EC676B7281B8FED1C334D7A3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Cameron,

This document is unlikely achieve concensus if it tries to favor one over the other.... and someone will always believe their approach is the best. So, the path via WG might not be best, AD sponsored may allow you a clearer path with less cat hearding. 


Thank you very much for mentioning this. As we all have our "glasses" influenced by our previous experience (or lack of it) with one or the other IPv6 transition technologies, I think it can be beneficial for a fair comparison if many v6ops members review and comment our draft. Under a "fair comparison" I mean that we acknowledge all the pros and cons of each studied technology and not try to favor one over the other.

In the current phase, we are discussing only our knowledge (and yes, sometimes our beliefs or prejudices) about the five technologies. However, I hope to be able to present measurement results in the near future. I also expect that some people will repeat our measurements to check our results.

My aim is to put together a comparison, which does not declare winners and losers amount the technologies, but helps the operators in selecting the one that suits their specific needs the best. (And thus the choice will be different for different needs.)

I am aware of the risk that our draft may not be published as an RFC if we do not achieve a rough consensus. I take this risk for the greater benefit of a balanced and well founded document, which is a great value for me.

Why?

I'm coming from academic background. I can publish a paper in a good reputation journal (e.g. with high impact factor), if I can convince 2-3 reviewers and the editor.

For example, I have recently published the following paper:

G. Lencse and Y. Kadobayashi, "Benchmarking DNS64 Implementations: Theory and Practice", Computer Communications (Elsevier), vol. 127, no. 1, pp. 61-74, September 1, 2018, DOI: 10.1016/j.comcom.2018.05.005

Review version is freely available: http://www.hit.bme.hu/~lencse/publications/ECC-2018-DNS64-BM-for-review.pdf

I did all my best when doing the measurements, and I was satisfied with the results.

However, later on, when I was working on benchmarking different authoritative DNS server implementations, I have noticed that the method I used for switching off and on the CPU cores, caused scattered results at higher query rates (e.g. 100-200kqps). I plan to repeat some of my DNS64 measurements to check whether or not it was this improper method that caused the scattered results of Unbound. (That would significantly influence some of the conclusions of the paper.)

I think this is a good example, why I consider the review of v6ops list members highly valuable. :-)

Best regards,

Gábor



--------------EC676B7281B8FED1C334D7A3-- From nobody Tue Nov 13 06:40:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF67130DD7; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:40:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSjIwUAhVUW3; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092071083.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.71.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45ABA127332; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:40:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Rtx959EgS92ncfB+qaMwqo4JgxnVCsgKWCkubPO8uVc=; b=nKik/KCF33QOetVzHwC6gJTIqa1TMf2wovlpwfMJUv2j7zuRmm63g5AZ6769uqogcVnGtGUip8TcDSNVhxr0sJW8D30W+dUZCN9QKAu0E2i/47Jn54VV4f6DkKAgca5uOzQT733LHQIAYTlgiRqkuVs+bK28ToqdaLNibgoMXyf+uFJyfdo955FRynhyht99uIoOIi952LT6glAmSCbOk4BZtOSB+1U6Qk1IGiY/dWPOqzhVz5M3UW4in2fC01lNFh73Dj7FkBxKWZBeStE8tX0gC/1UHIgYtHe+6o7EpQNe4re+WqiZmebNQpY23Eho1cgTwUx3qfn3UOycnI3Ucg== Received: from DB5EUR03FT017.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.54) by DB5EUR03HT223.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:40:24 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.20.53) by DB5EUR03FT017.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:40:24 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:40:24 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZg== Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:40:24 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:E0BD7CD9E92A8559E85581BDA9560743A1608AF0C4D629B30933D9D682C48B3C; UpperCasedChecksum:C7D34B07A7B87A693BCAD14DD4FE5CABACEEA56673891735C83622671B959D3E; SizeAsReceived:6885; Count:43 x-tmn: [LOFUXOhPonceq9x39+0jX2TSKqw3M5s/] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR03HT223; 6:Cqj49DDQL4Fx7nXwxxR2lkS9beF9cxjF6dw09XbKhl/q6HGRL9RaHfsFw9U4dcfFSbmfqdUwkL+cHGvW96Gtic0kHB81xN3ccluGF+LlL/udE8b47UTKcbxM8Rn3Yq608ydkOqcMa1PQvSTFRiEZHSEHZhTiyvbhQUKz7RHqiPJfW2phMye+x89m/d8xPdZiwNzrKiSVbIsBaFAaCEHKpilCiO109kp7xwppdJPEMJDZN0qeGmm9tTyYtrJm5XG/p8vOl7pvHnkcNgdCPy8hiaVR32AN5usFOa17qTi5i9pHzaD9tEUzoJKvLhgrUNidRz51Llg4wN8WHzgSeOon9wUu8ORvZYrD3xu+lLsDBOKae1C6cKMwXIrgU8rr3KqIvy6tO+b8KVC2E4p1ERl8JWsUIGshjU8HO8vSEgEXhvWjLjousKvhfT7YnZYtEQ4Ufy5PuMCncNYq4tPwS6/iXg==; 5:jjaJsyFpR+FuxAIkWeV08YyzmzltfHBaLIAZ9QRKn+MKadA7evGYnlCPsjQ7XPyrdTNvCZxF143CHQ7BZsk3RVlq/u+RCiDq1m5QT+m9B/WSly79+/C0JstbWZ78UYroEEw9OFwx3r/dSJ//ah3UjW4sBqbT4jM9hetmAZ+TiCs=; 7:0RamJfyUf4SXyxKK+/Pgkw68etWLR3P8WG40VQKmlxZlsUra8txjLbzXDXVI2mQhiCN7B2SynaCmVidACM0egHDesGeuLK2Eib/yLv2IJelnPBINUa2V8/rQ4e3nZ7CaasKWTQaM9PGfvoz9vizDgw== x-incomingheadercount: 43 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390060)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT223; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR03HT223: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT223; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR03HT223; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: zcnJ0KWJrqyw2YdhZtnyiZZ4invjkhMo1PaOb/Sa0Hpn22c/sU9kToOLVji0oAqw Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29377F0DD1854F1786FC67ACAEC20HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f930d66a-5082-4e0b-e980-08d64975f25a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Nov 2018 14:40:24.4258 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT223 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:40:31 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29377F0DD1854F1786FC67ACAEC20HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the IPmix I-= D. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/ Regards, Khaled Omar --_000_HE1PR0402MB29377F0DD1854F1786FC67ACAEC20HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted = version of the IPmix I-D.

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/

 

Regards,

 

Khaled Omar

--_000_HE1PR0402MB29377F0DD1854F1786FC67ACAEC20HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Tue Nov 13 08:35:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71741298C5; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:35:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AwFZ6gv1zHd; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7E6128B14; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:35:04 -0000 SGkgT2xlLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE9sZSBUcm9h biBbbWFpbHRvOm90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIE5vdmVtYmVy IDEyLCAyMDE4IDExOjU3IFBNDQo+IFRvOiBUZW1wbGluIChVUyksIEZyZWQgTCA8RnJlZC5MLlRl bXBsaW5AYm9laW5nLmNvbT4NCj4gQ2M6IE5hdmVlbiBLb3R0YXBhbGxpIDxuYXZlZW4uc2FybWFA Z21haWwuY29tPjsgNm1hbiBXRyA8aXB2NkBpZXRmLm9yZz47IHY2b3BzIGxpc3QgPHY2b3BzQGll dGYub3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Y2b3BzXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24g Zm9yIGRyYWZ0LW5hdmVlbi1zbGFhYy1wcmVmaXgtbWFuYWdlbWVudC0wMC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IEZy ZWQsDQo+IA0KPiA+Pj4gSSBhZ3JlZSB0byBzb21lIGV4dGVudCB0aGF0IERIQ1B2NiBpcyBhIGZv cm1hdCBvbiB3aXJlLiAgQnV0IGFtIHN1cmUgaXQgd291bGQgY29uc3VtZSBtb3JlIHJlc291cmNl cyBhdCByb3V0ZXIgdG8gc3VwcG9ydA0KPiBESENQdjYNCj4gPj4gYXMgYSB3aG9sZSBhbG9uZyB3 aXRoIFNMQUFDLg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBQcmVmaXggZGVsZWdhdGlvbiBpcyBxdWl0ZSBkaWZmZXJl bnQgZnJvbSBTTEFBQy4NCj4gPj4gUmVnYXJkbGVzcyB0aGlzIGlzIHdhdGVyIHVuZGVyIHRoZSBi cmlkZ2UuIFNpbmNlIDIwMDMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBTbyBJIGNhbiB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoaXMgY29t bWVudCwgdGhlIHdhdGVyIHVuZGVyIHRoZSBicmlkZ2UgcmVmZXJzIHRvIHRoZQ0KPiA+IHNlbGVj dGlvbiBvZiBESENQdjYgUEQgYXMgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIGZvciBwcmVmaXggZGVsZWdhdGlvbi4g SXMgdGhhdCB3aGF0DQo+ID4geW91IHdlcmUgbWVhbmluZyB0byBzYXk/DQo+IA0KPiBTdXJlLg0K DQpPSywgc28geW91IGFyZSBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCBESENQdjYgaXMgKnRoZSogY2hvc2VuIHByb3Rv Y29sIGZvciBQcmVmaXggRGVsZWdhdGlvbg0KYW5kIHRoZXJlIHNoYWxsIGJlIG5vIGFsdGVybmF0 ZSBJUHY2IE5ELWJhc2VkIHByb3RvY29sIGluIGFkZGl0aW9uIHRvIHRoYXQuIEkgZG9uJ3QNCm1p bmQgYSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgbGlrZSB0aGF0LCBidXQgd291bGQgdGhlIGNvbW11bml0eSBhZ3JlZSB3 aXRoIGl0Pw0KDQo+IFRoZSB2YWx1ZSBwcm9wb3NpdGlvbiBvZiBzb21ldGhpbmcgbmV3LCBoYXMg dG8gYmUgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRoYW4g4oCcanVzdCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgd3JhcHBpbmfigJ0uDQoNCkJ5 ICJkaWZmZXJlbnQgd3JhcHBpbmciLCBhcmUgeW91IGFyZSB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0IG5vbi1ESENQ djYgcHJvdG9jb2wgcHJvcG9zYWxzPw0KSWYgbm90LCBpZiB5b3UgbWVhbiB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCB0 aGUgaWRlYSBvZiBpbmNsdWRpbmcgYSBESENQdjYgb3B0aW9uIGluIFJTL1JBIG1lc3NhZ2VzDQpp cyAianVzdCBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCB3cmFwcGluZyIsIHRoZW4gdGhhdCBpcyBub3QgZW50aXJlbHkg dHJ1ZS4gQnkgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGJvdGggdGhlIElQdjYNCk5EIGFuZCBESENQdjYgZnVuY3Rpb25z IGluIGEgc2luZ2xlIG1lc3NhZ2UgZXhjaGFuZ2UsIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBmZXdlciBtZXNzYWdlcw0K YW5kIGZld2VyIHJvdW5kIHRyaXBzLiBUaGF0IGluIGl0c2VsZiBpcyBpbnRlcmVzdGluZy4NCg0K VGhhbmtzIC0gRnJlZA0KDQo+IFdlIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBzdHJ1Z2dsaW5nIHdpdGgg4oCccGVybWlz c2lvbmxlc3MgZXh0ZW5zaW9uc+KAnSBvZiBhbiBJUHY2IG5ldHdvcmsuIFNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0 IHNvbHZlZCB0aGF0IHByb2JsZW0sIHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgbG90IG1vcmUNCj4gaW50ZXJlc3Rpbmcg dG8gdGFsayBhYm91dC4NCj4gDQo+IENoZWVycywNCj4gT2xlDQo= From nobody Tue Nov 13 09:38:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5070312F1AC; 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charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:38:07 +0100 Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:38:12 -0000 Fred, > On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ole, >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v= 6ops list >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >>=20 >> Fred, >>=20 >>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am sure i= t would consume more resources at router to support >> DHCPv6 >>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>=20 >>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>=20 >>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge refers to t= he >>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. Is that wh= at >>> you were meaning to say? >>=20 >> Sure. >=20 > OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for Prefix Dele= gation > and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in addition to that= . I don't > mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it? In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equivalent solu= tions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.=20 >=20 >> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than =E2=80=9C= just different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >=20 > By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol pro= posals? > If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 option in R= S/RA messages > is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. By includi= ng both the IPv6 > ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are fewer mess= ages > and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a round trip= , since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other.=20 Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just options in N= D instead of DHCP.=20 Cheers=20 Ole >=20 > Thanks - Fred >=20 >> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D o= f an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a lot more >> interesting to talk about. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Ole From nobody Tue Nov 13 10:26:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665D712EB11; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id prdnjEcLwkg0; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81970128B14; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wADIQ6qi003729; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:26:06 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wADIPwV2003079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:25:58 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:25:57 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:25:57 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ole Troan CC: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , "v6ops list" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguA= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:25:57 +0000 Message-ID: <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: B47D6A4985A2D444E5F345602E197A9BE80B040953A643204510BA7AF4B86ACB2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:26:10 -0000 T2xlLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE9sZSBUcm9hbiBb bWFpbHRvOm90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAx MywgMjAxOCA5OjM4IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBUZW1wbGluIChVUyksIEZyZWQgTCA8RnJlZC5MLlRlbXBs aW5AYm9laW5nLmNvbT4NCj4gQ2M6IE5hdmVlbiBLb3R0YXBhbGxpIDxuYXZlZW4uc2FybWFAZ21h aWwuY29tPjsgNm1hbiBXRyA8aXB2NkBpZXRmLm9yZz47IHY2b3BzIGxpc3QgPHY2b3BzQGlldGYu b3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Y2b3BzXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y 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DQo+ID4+IFdlIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBzdHJ1Z2dsaW5nIHdpdGgg4oCccGVybWlzc2lvbmxlc3MgZXh0 ZW5zaW9uc+KAnSBvZiBhbiBJUHY2IG5ldHdvcmsuIFNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IHNvbHZlZCB0aGF0 IHByb2JsZW0sIHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgbG90DQo+IG1vcmUNCj4gPj4gaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgdG8gdGFs ayBhYm91dC4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPiA+PiBPbGUNCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 13 10:35:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0151294D0; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1UrS6A7iCA97; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A648B128B14; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.223.214.189] (77.16.70.189.tmi.telenormobil.no [77.16.70.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CFA5CFECBEAC; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:35:38 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:35:33 +0100 Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:35:45 -0000 > On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > Ole, >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v= 6ops list >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >>=20 >> Fred, >>=20 >>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Ole, >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG = ; v6ops list >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management-00.txt >>>>=20 >>>> Fred, >>>>=20 >>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am sure= it would consume more resources at router to support >>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>=20 >>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge refers to= the >>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. Is that w= hat >>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>=20 >>>> Sure. >>>=20 >>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for Prefix De= legation >>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in addition to th= at. I don't >>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it? >>=20 >> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equivalent s= olutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >=20 > But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a waste of time= and resources.=20 Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have a satis= factory solution... >=20 >>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than =E2=80= =9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol p= roposals? >>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 option in= RS/RA messages >>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. By inclu= ding both the IPv6 >>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are fewer me= ssages >>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>=20 >> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a round t= rip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >=20 > This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependence betwee= n the two > protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA exchange= and check the > M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying that tha= t is no longer > the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a protocol bet= ween routers.=20 >=20 > It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of four. T= hat matters > a great deal on low end links. I would like to see the maths behind that.=20 Use header compression then.=20 >=20 >> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just options i= n ND instead of DHCP. >=20 > No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not different than D= HCPv6. > That is the whole point. Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND is also a o= ne to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router delegation.=20= Cheers=20 Ole >=20 > Thanks - Fred >=20 >> Cheers >> Ole >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks - Fred >>>=20 >>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D= of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a lot >> more >>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ole >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 13 10:52:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E230130DC6; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:52:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJll1bC02KfQ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E504128CB7; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wADIqjXA038985; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:52:45 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wADIqa4e038895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:52:37 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:52:35 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:52:35 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ole Troan CC: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , "v6ops list" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnA Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:52:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 4275E38A2E953E0572E872FEA0CCF4F01F3CFBDE213CE1D9CFC8052BE6892F472000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:52:50 -0000 SEkgT2xlLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE9sZSBUcm9h biBbbWFpbHRvOm90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJl ciAxMywgMjAxOCAxMDozNiBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgPEZyZWQuTC5U ZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+DQo+IENjOiBOYXZlZW4gS290dGFwYWxsaSA8bmF2ZWVuLnNhcm1h 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<50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:36:50 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:37:01 -0000 On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > HI Ole, >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-p= refix-management-00.txt >> >> >> >>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> >>> Ole, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt >>>> >>>> Fred, >>>> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> Fred, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am= sure it would consume more resources at router to support >>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge refe= rs to the >>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. Is = that what >>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure. >>>>> >>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for Pref= ix Delegation >>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in addition = to that. I don't >>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it? >>>> >>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equival= ent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>> >>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >> >> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a waste o= f time and resources. >> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have a= satisfactory solution... >=20 > OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Prefix = Delegation > *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I add= this > qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other non-prot= ocol > alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but ther= e are some subtleties: 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appear to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protocols are concerned. 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort of coordinated prefix management scheme. 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 Brian >=20 >>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than =E2= =80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>> >>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 proto= col proposals? >>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 opti= on in RS/RA messages >>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. By = including both the IPv6 >>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are few= er messages >>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>> >>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a ro= und trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>> >>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependence b= etween the two >>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA exc= hange and check the >>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying tha= t that is no longer >>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >> >> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a protoc= ol between routers. >=20 > OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >=20 >>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of f= our. That matters >>> a great deal on low end links. >> >> I would like to see the maths behind that. >> Use header compression then. >=20 > It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso how= > many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everything = in > a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring mult= iple > channel accesses. >=20 > Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you ge= t > to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo > channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common data= > links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA protoc= ols > for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >=20 >>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just opti= ons in ND instead of DHCP. >>> >>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not different = than DHCPv6. >>> That is the whole point. >> >> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND is a= lso a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router >> delegation. >=20 > IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). In t= his > case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indication t= hat > the RA is to be returned via unicast. >=20 > Thanks - Fred >=20 >=20 >> >> Cheers >> Ole >> >> >>> >>> Thanks - Fred >>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Ole >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>> >>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2= =80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a= lot >>>> more >>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Ole >>> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 13 11:51:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92794130DE0; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:51:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqYX6hm5s8D7; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5CCA128B14; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.187] (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A846EFECBBDA; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:51:37 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:51:34 +0100 Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28957A1D-FF5E-404E-89BF-A1B9A982BD55@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:51:42 -0000 Brian, Absolutely. When we think of prefix delegation. It is the delegation of an a= ddress block from one administrative domain to another. Aka the fax replacem= ent. HNCP solves a very different problem that DHCPv6 is unsuitable for. Basically anything involving a topology is not good use of DHCPv6. Unless yo= u want to build spanning trees with DHCP relays. Of course ND is equally ill= -suited for that.=20 Cheers=20 Ole > On 13 Nov 2018, at 20:36, Brian E Carpenter w= rote: >=20 >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> HI Ole, >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ;= v6ops list >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pre= fix-management-00.txt >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Ole, >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-p= refix-management-00.txt >>>>>=20 >>>>> Fred, >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But am s= ure it would consume more resources at router to support >>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge refers= to the >>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. Is th= at what >>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for Prefix= Delegation >>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in addition to= that. I don't >>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it? >>>>>=20 >>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equivalen= t solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>=20 >>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>=20 >>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a waste of t= ime and resources. >>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have a s= atisfactory solution... >>=20 >> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Prefix De= legation >> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I add t= his >> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other non-protoc= ol >> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >=20 > I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but there= > are some subtleties: >=20 > 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people > using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appear > to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protocols > are concerned. >=20 > 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > of coordinated prefix management scheme. >=20 > 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than =E2= =80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 protoco= l proposals? >>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 option= in RS/RA messages >>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. By in= cluding both the IPv6 >>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are fewer= messages >>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a roun= d trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>=20 >>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependence bet= ween the two >>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA excha= nge and check the >>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying that t= hat is no longer >>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>=20 >>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a protocol= between routers. >>=20 >> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>=20 >>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of fou= r. That matters >>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>=20 >>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>> Use header compression then. >>=20 >> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso how >> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everything in= >> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring multip= le >> channel accesses. >>=20 >> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you get >> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo >> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common data >> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA protocol= s >> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>=20 >>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just option= s in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>=20 >>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not different th= an DHCPv6. >>>> That is the whole point. >>>=20 >>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND is als= o a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router >>> delegation. >>=20 >> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). In thi= s >> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indication tha= t >> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>=20 >> Thanks - Fred >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> Ole >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Ole >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80= =9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a lot >>>>> more >>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Ole >>>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 13 12:34:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D31130DF1; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:34:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xBEsh_3JpJQh; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: 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<7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:00:38 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 22:00:51 -0000 in line.. On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-p= refix-management-00.txt >> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> HI Ole, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ole, >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> Fred, >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-s= laac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But = am sure it would consume more resources at router to >> support >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge re= fers to the >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. I= s that what >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for Pr= efix Delegation >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in additio= n to that. I don't >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it= ? >>>>>> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equiv= alent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a waste= of time and resources. >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have= a satisfactory solution... >>> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Prefi= x Delegation >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I a= dd this >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other non-pr= otocol >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but t= here >> are some subtleties: >> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appea= r >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protocol= s >> are concerned. >=20 > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >=20 > "10. Prefix Delegation Services >=20 > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered according= > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCPv6= > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >=20 > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs, > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >=20 > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments based= > on these recent discussions? I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion. Brian >=20 > Thanks - Fred >=20 >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >> >> Brian >> >>> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than= =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 pro= tocol proposals? >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 op= tion in RS/RA messages >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. B= y including both the IPv6 >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are f= ewer messages >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a = round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependence= between the two >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA e= xchange and check the >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying t= hat that is no longer >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a prot= ocol between routers. >>> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of= four. That matters >>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>> Use header compression then. >>> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso h= ow >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everythin= g in >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring mu= ltiple >>> channel accesses. >>> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you = get >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common da= ta >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA prot= ocols >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just op= tions in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not differen= t than DHCPv6. >>>>> That is the whole point. >>>> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND is= also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router >>>> delegation. >>> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). In= this >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indication= that >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>> >>> Thanks - Fred >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Ole >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Ole >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2= =80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a= >> lot >>>>>> more >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Ole >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >=20 From fireballiso@yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 17:55:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F972128CFD for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:55:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTgGR4QhW67l for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sonic307-12.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-12.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A2A12426A for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:55:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1542160554; bh=2X977nTS7ibyqWiXXSMmyVz6RIk6gta1NI/dN79L2go=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=tt1YuLajLJ/0uvmBUDjtBOuPVzrrba1dSG+2lR09NX0JP4+kSlVJ47zAUdceoW3bXMEoxd9AB22oZHrxonOUwIA6fRz7SAJYgl9JRAHxnxxfMQcmIoKfu2ph2bZ2kIluwNFqkpyDDqCOJNDlXGRMVWpyHfw8kwYmj2Mrnmhy+U55GjY15It6hoiGW84iGuAsPjOMoG0a2kJpRxBEBmwRPRF+bCRIMpJGtfUnRB0HVYMmVyi79RMbMkUqELiQJNZWAPpTrGowfKioZSRsi+G2I0zDC4sKhmK7CrMYxBE01mLyLI5R7sQQwxFNolrAQs7XRkq3yWpIh2mxKRj4lvjd0Q== X-YMail-OSG: hC3J3jIVM1mgIXAUfwOiwYMhtEWprOafim0Z2mvo1.McWXuiDPYB7QYfNkOx_bX SPqqSlNpeK.E2pCFot8OaXHAWlCyD2dLvwg3jclY5eDybda9deY8yrxr6xLbDgQg9dYTdmiDAwB. 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The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are=C2=A0 still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated. Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": Addr Type=C2=A0 DAD State=C2=A0=C2=A0 Valid Life Pref. Life Address ---------=C2=A0 ----------- ---------- ---------- -----------------------= - Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0= =C2=A0 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0= =C2=A0 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 Other=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 inf= inite=C2=A0=C2=A0 infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=3Ddisabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.) Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround or updated fix in the works? --=20 -Indy fireballiso@yahoo.com --------------68926BF2E6C3AB07EC22A41D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are  still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated.

Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr":

Addr Type  DAD State   Valid Life Pref. Life Address
---------  ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------
Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Other      Preferred     infinite   infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13


I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=disabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.)

Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround or updated fix in the works? 

-- 

-Indy
fireballiso@yahoo.com
--------------68926BF2E6C3AB07EC22A41D-- From nobody Tue Nov 13 20:40:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5F31277CC for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3H3FNsa4-hx for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22c.google.com (mail-oi1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93E23127148 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id a77so6569357oii.5 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y17pgrOl0hinJspJzCEwH4nc/KX0zWJKCXVFVTmGfBQ=; b=NCxxaEW8JTgRImCU4yWAuuOVEOgSnQgyHxppecZVbR5RKQ4ZCTJwHysr+OSNZuINzn Sesx5KbXDS8FQdIolw69X/pEUBT0JxteuBJQqGXFLZbHQ8coX1pXrNRLcR0kSNogduZ+ nFSRtQwYOnA503CNDNLBu6qBzLOHiZPtmNGm/mG3GK29HTS5287ccELDXHWo8ldvbR29 sTvPwJK1Ino903JF81vr+0sfdWkU7eGnSHudEkwQQ/HR65EGk68PdfVKC2kW1PTYRwls 93CZpzdlqyguRrQZzQuDtKYaCsrQq97sXY9wRNc2ofk4mQRJJqMIBPEIhB2ECLg71YTi PsJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y17pgrOl0hinJspJzCEwH4nc/KX0zWJKCXVFVTmGfBQ=; b=J3Brh96cHjSX+Q8FIua1dWr5I8MqCxK8Ar2wXAOm+P6IWm8uDRC1Qsdou1NfzK+H/A Sen+HxwqExmg8qt52TAN7ODcs/8Gst32lvGqAlbVqt5DqqOUz4sOsRAVbCCBKqvdRXVB tN1z/Hg/XqGJysFrJXc9V8Mpj2om8M6GQJ3/ZmE+OmVQQ4mxSyZw6efbYKUycUTs8wwX HEV1JEX1zIFbRLmLW/4Rt12AF1WQxQ05AHmnTPn4+dOjGrN0lR4PILvOOGKgm3tqwWtm bai+afq6l9NKqsyquFz80oy6EgyaONQX6hDM16LbqswyeUVezEbwNIOtLDYk3QcDZa8o Z7UA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLxlrokuY5WdOfWBl+dR+dVETcEKW3C+0W2kqXa1Ld6ONQxLdKA 94j+SGhYLj+kFX0sg19ViZC8iGvfSS4X8fYD1yNIdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5doyMidQrL+36w/EQ5hqQ9IbAd+U3YYmRUsdsY1oMzgPmFRn8yDEuKBOK8VrVsAXiiSJWCOEgx2jvgA4XWNcbg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e5d4:: with SMTP id c203-v6mr207404oih.1.1542170406591; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:40:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:39:55 +1100 Message-ID: To: fireballiso Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044a3aa057a988743" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:40:09 -0000 --00000000000044a3aa057a988743 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) > for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses > count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary > address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and > non-temporary addresses are still large, but the preferred lifetime of the > temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are > generated. > It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the address lifetimes? > Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": > Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address > --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ > Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s > 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 > > Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 > > Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 > > > I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from > Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that > they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, > but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build > 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft > on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above > version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses > working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the > privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=disabled", > then enabling them again, does nothing.) > That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to be refreshed. Regards, Mark. Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy > issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround > or updated fix in the works? > > -- > > -Indyfireballiso@yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --00000000000044a3aa057a988743 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso <fireballiso=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
=20 =20 =20
I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are=C2=A0 still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated.

It'= ;s not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the addres= s lifetimes?

Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr":

Addr Type=C2=A0 DAD State=C2=A0=C2=A0 Valid Life Pref. Life Address
---------=C2=A0 ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------
Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2= =A0=C2=A0 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s= =C2=A0=C2=A0 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Other=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 infinite=C2=A0=C2=A0 infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13


I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, but anothe= r similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime betwe= en build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=3Ddisabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.)


That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lif= etimes to be refreshed.

= Regards,
Mark.


Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround or updated fix in the works? 

--=20

-Indy
fireballiso@yaho=
o.com
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op= s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--00000000000044a3aa057a988743-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 00:25:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3760130DD9 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:25:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8E3H39zRoPdO for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogstar.hit.bme.hu (frogstar.hit.bme.hu [IPv6:2001:738:2001:4020::2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C652130DCF for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:738:2c01:24:95e0:ecfc:6c45:8f86] ([IPv6:2001:738:2c01:24:95e0:ecfc:6c45:8f86]) (authenticated bits=0) by frogstar.hit.bme.hu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wAE8OmpU062774 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:24:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lencse@hit.bme.hu) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=c3=a1bor?= Message-ID: <4ede4d8a-c6cb-7a36-44ad-9d748740752e@hit.bme.hu> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:24:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------278AE5B7E8CFB928DC44E9ED" Content-Language: en-GB X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.1 at frogstar.hit.bme.hu X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: pass (frogstar.hit.bme.hu: authenticated connection) receiver=frogstar.hit.bme.hu; client-ip=2001:738:2c01:24:95e0:ecfc:6c45:8f86; helo=[IPv6:2001:738:2c01:24:95e0:ecfc:6c45:8f86]; envelope-from=lencse@hit.bme.hu; x-software=spfmilter 2.001 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.2.10; X-DCC--Metrics: frogstar.hit.bme.hu; whitelist X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:25:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------278AE5B7E8CFB928DC44E9ED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And what prevents Windows 10 from soliciting an RA, when information is needed for generating a new temporary IPv6 address? Gábor 2018.11.14. 5:39 keltezéssel, Mark Smith írta: > > > On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso > wrote: > > I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build > 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 > temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface > starts using the non-temporary address for communications. The > valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses > are  still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary > addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated. > > > It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the > address lifetimes? > > Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": > > Addr Type  DAD State   Valid Life Pref. Life Address > ---------  ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ > Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s > 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 > > Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s > fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 > > Other      Preferred     infinite   infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 > > > I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone > from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to > say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the > fix was implemented, but another similar issue was reported as > fixed "sometime between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm > hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this list, since > this problem is currently happening in the above version several > times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working > again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the > privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy > state=disabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.) > > > That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to > be refreshed. > > Regards, > Mark. > > > Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the > privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there > is a workaround or updated fix in the works? > > -- > > -Indy > fireballiso@yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------278AE5B7E8CFB928DC44E9ED Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

And what prevents Windows 10 from soliciting an RA, when information is needed for generating a new temporary IPv6 address?

Gábor

2018.11.14. 5:39 keltezéssel, Mark Smith írta:


I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are  still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated.

It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the address lifetimes?

Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr":

Addr Type  DAD State   Valid Life Pref. Life Address
---------  ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------
Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Public     Preferred    23h58m44s   3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary  Deprecated   23h58m44s         0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Other      Preferred     infinite   infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13


I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=disabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.)


That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to be refreshed.

Regards,
Mark.


Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround or updated fix in the works? 

-- 

-Indy
fireballiso@yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
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--------------278AE5B7E8CFB928DC44E9ED-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 00:36:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77159128CF3 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yJlPgADGNb7c for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC3B129C6A for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id r127-v6so12904276oie.3 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:36:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NfivXsWSu3BTkpGaLYOw+BgD8wP2sYu4kwRz64GiHzE=; b=N0DoEJKL4UAnXwwP3sC1Q2qLQ0meJz3a5G3HPyAREpzm7UqK2RdehT86qC9nkIAKZi 4em4ARgk392/0nma2KA9IYSfvF6sU3o7kX5yahQDJqG/CU+JtTXCNLt8P9D3UvgxMAqu IahGIrIANbdEfqoOUcjKHKFCZrlXaqaNVrRXqh7hNYw+YFiAl6f9MQqHr6NcmTgh9Sb9 Zmn8ULPn3vgp7dhiOeLbkBbr0EoiUZk9T4DPbqA4l+HyZHvjpsmfkYUSfwpvTUygIGQM hHMEmeM+nQPS3egCEjW5rhxjc+jZmVRjHnJ1aW9a10zO3/lvvcW5NWEuGQP+erwmSGnW P3ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NfivXsWSu3BTkpGaLYOw+BgD8wP2sYu4kwRz64GiHzE=; b=IVriGWd1Jf2G+S7pcpGod0qVH+4EXMxreg5uQgfYvkEG55ou3nCdkpwu/u0ITyPA7f /xOs55bgNtgEfDgqgkfBVsX6fH5BdbCivfmanErTDdZIHees3YrZB1UGaYOEYUa0bQ/Z NSIFAKcanTjc+5WKSI3pj9UTfLf7fUloenXCBAtUdfZWpuRFs8tliS/eZzUq9gfrnbky QgVsiO25KonM7e47YfQkEgZyzBB2iFMkc+XK9kugUzMctOrYQp9god7PQGX+/pXgpy10 kw/uAN0wQr9gHNPNsvAn0RPdVC67MiVMxbKRa+wqP3dcLqwB/ncv5Zf2TRpOqFypMZRf WVTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJKBQmLwvgR3duPLW/yzN/7Kf+C3SWKt5pVDOKCL0iHmBghv1pQ j6SpSQ+Lqj34yB5wZEkVybR6AveWtU4P+OCut/0s3A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eSxzEuZKB8vFw0j4rXo5P4zlpE5rTk9Hu0HjjofsoLFsGvBEJC1MA7rxCmziJs/GHECehLVF59C58qMnWSDnA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:62d7:: with SMTP id w206-v6mr556919oib.275.1542184614846; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:36:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ede4d8a-c6cb-7a36-44ad-9d748740752e@hit.bme.hu> In-Reply-To: <4ede4d8a-c6cb-7a36-44ad-9d748740752e@hit.bme.hu> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:36:43 +1100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000256490057a9bd6b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:36:58 -0000 --000000000000256490057a9bd6b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 19:26 Lencse G=C3=A1bor And what prevents Windows 10 from soliciting an RA, when information is > needed for generating a new temporary IPv6 address? > IPv6 not working that way ...? RAs are sent periodically by the router automatically. They need to be sent more often than the preferred and valid prefix lifetime values ... otherwise addresses will expire. G=C3=A1bor > 2018.11.14. 5:39 keltez=C3=A9ssel, Mark Smith =C3=ADrta: > > > > On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso 40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote: > >> I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) >> for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresse= s >> count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary >> address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and >> non-temporary addresses are still large, but the preferred lifetime of = the >> temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are >> generated. >> > > It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the addres= s > lifetimes? > >> Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": >> Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address >> --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s >> 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 >> >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s >> fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 >> >> Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 >> >> >> I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from >> Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that >> they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implement= ed, >> but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build >> 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsof= t >> on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above >> version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses >> working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the >> privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=3Ddisable= d", >> then enabling them again, does nothing.) >> > > That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to be > refreshed. > > Regards, > Mark. > > > Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy >> issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaroun= d >> or updated fix in the works? >> >> -- >> >> -Indyfireballiso@yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing listv6ops@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000256490057a9bd6b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 19:26 Lencse G=C3=A1bor <lencse@hit.bme.hu wrote:
=20 =20 =20

And what prevents Windows 10 from soliciting an RA, when information is needed for generating a new temporary IPv6 address?

IPv6 not working that way= ...?

RAs are sent perio= dically by the router automatically. They need to be sent more often than t= he preferred and valid prefix lifetime values ... otherwise addresses will = expire.=C2=A0


=

G=C3=A1bor

2018.11.14. 5:39 ke= ltez=C3=A9ssel, Mark Smith =C3=ADrta:
=20


On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso <fireballiso=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
I've seen stra= nge behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are=C2=A0 still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated.

It's not because RAs aren't being sent of= ten enough to refresh the address lifetimes?

Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr":<= br>

Addr Type=C2=A0 DAD State=C2=A0=C2=A0 Valid Life Pref. Life= Address
---------=C2=A0 ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------
Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0=C2=A0 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20

Temporary=C2=A0 Deprecated=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h58m44s=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371

Other=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 infinite=C2=A0=C2=A0 infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13


I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented= , but another similar issue was reported as fixed "<= /span>sometime between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping th= ere are still people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=3Ddisabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.)


That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to be refreshed.

Regards,
Mark.


Unfortunat= ely, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround or updated fix in the works? 

--=20

-Indy
fireballiso@yahoo.com
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https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1542184654.095476936 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:37:40 -0000 Hi Omar, > Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the IPmix > I-D. I couldn't see any substantial changes, so there are still the same issues with this proposal: - The draft states: "It solves the issue of allowing IPv6 only hosts to communicate to IPv4 only hosts and vice versa in a simple and very efficient way." => This is simply wrong: "IPv4 only" and "IPv6 only" hosts would not be able to speak IPmix by definition of "only". This is a fundamental contradiction in your proposal. If an IPv4 host would be upgraded with IPmix, there is no reason to not let it upgrade to IPv6 and be it a dual stack host. Problem solved. - Introducing something like IPmix would be more difficult than simply deploying IPv6. - IPv4 only hosts would never be able to reach the whole IPv6 address space - For IPv6 only hosts we have NAT64/DNS64 to let them talk to the IPv4 world All these issues have been mentioned before. If you don't consider them, don't expect any more comments. BTW: There are still remnants of IPv.. in the document (sections 4.2 and 7). Please remove them in any future versions as it will confuse people outside the IETF. Regards Roland From nobody Wed Nov 14 03:04:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6B512D4EB; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:04:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3rCemTMkR86N; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur03olkn082c.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe08::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A71C12D4E7; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:04:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=xuYORMgA7zEEYgRdGFlN9T3FIGL3E1BILXuMtCO6mus=; b=LoEoJMxnwlAuNYWpyEB7OvV5YbuOKXET/AHNA2XptVKybOrisSX3V4FZEzqP8Ls92mKOr9YRCVqJ/MKfT3qs2zcTLJLlDgi4qOgPBpRvIL2S58WrhvB66HKfP4T6J1jrtenRXqz/+Uwe5fHXzuModOQCFutzxYawClPpk4q4Ae8KI3y6LxsUPAf6wvqusgty2D7bnU8WOIkuT3FQSeV/qiUFB86kuDCMG6FC+MwyQ2nqUEhhz37d7FmFuPQpwq8ZZwdL5M832fjZqGTEerTIKnMf4ltd4i0puHaKrbcYSN3l2nufGrQddWN+OGM6FiJnJ7ZKp2GU9ekpio4PjsWdGQ== Received: from VE1EUR03FT044.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.59) by VE1EUR03HT175.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.227) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:04:14 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.18.59) by VE1EUR03FT044.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.19.106) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:04:14 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:04:14 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgAlvT6AAAIDCoA= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:596BEF745231BC3121AE2207BC5681102464C59F13B769366501B18124000EF6; UpperCasedChecksum:1047A14134FA6EBFFC7E1FD7E745776BF39846AC5D82AE739E676A666E1DE84B; SizeAsReceived:7152; Count:45 x-tmn: [g1NZKNLcUk56UyGjn7saOvFPLy4nj9G1] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR03HT175; 6:m2kefuMidsQZk36v9uulgkhTCS7c2Xsr3hofdOwmPVAZcc+v5vYce4uZAnIdwSGhaXr12AuEeGNNAZFvRd7Q5Dpp5ZeyCWxSXjuFVFmx2X7wyf1/daOwo7yEgNLFg+aP8L6xvozRbFJLZMXfu1w5PnFHv9i2mfvYjQVVCr1Vof1Bg3P/4TSC5d1YzNarWZVjB7HLqghIVxc3MesLaok78divdhUxVkefF4Z+InPrY4INAKbYBCYaA5LLl43x1idFrctnNlONNLrct9EL2OZrsqJZqparpm02TA8Ipxbrke7mbEh5xysOnDgItFhB6d1NictMZlw5JyYxdxznaiHM+9WuWTFNL59wM1hIIigUzxCEv2Xj2fbPyHm/BCCE3TPKxwcoiED1aKymaAohE9oyUFYk/hzcau5I3diNCsQq2Hzt1N+ZYO+JN93uAB5ncmcvZrZBIwyVd9MVy3sTX1NcQg==; 5:2B0AqHKfvIrOE3aB1mGtKr719F6cgFB7e+xO8ytFwzUWfT2GQalKEvRWmh7VrMYIJlHtAE1oNbhAA+y0Ql6Peay0s5SOssCcC2yV6gMzyIAjlWHF78pA6/CgTHxfTFr7aXwUNWSETttAdhccKKEFAhIBnY0u13z6Qv65Rx+jSG8=; 7:LQps5D0B2NhwwT/KNpj8D45I9YAfp8c6MndyAcd2XfcIG3OmYgV4cS7mgjnFFYOncwRcjEOGmH0Mqvqo9fBMU6uhrOFhdkc4RH5+qWz/Nw5Uw2HnybG9OFPXlADeNuyemUA9f6BAHp+62UuOkEkswQ== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT175; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR03HT175: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT175; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR03HT175; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: apXGaOffjUjk9KJQXBbGDzv/fSPXF2Hd+3bkdWxUnWoZktJAkwGdVLrViHD4nvPm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a81c54b6-b5fe-4e6d-a6c0-08d64a20ea0c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 11:04:14.5150 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR03HT175 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:04:21 -0000 Hi Roland, Let's take it step by step, first I'm not asking the IETF to publish the do= cument as an RFC as version 01, there are more to add. > This is simply wrong: "IPv4 only" and "IPv6 only" hosts would not be able= to speak IPmix by definition of "only". This is a fundamental contradictio= n in your proposal.=20 "Only" means the assigned IP address for the host is either IPv4 only or IP= v6 only. > If an IPv4 host would be upgraded with IPmix, there is no reason to not l= et it upgrade to IPv6 and be it a dual stack host. Problem solved. IPmix is not an address as IPv6 to be assigned, the host will not be upgrad= ed but it will be updated. IPv6 requires efforts from the client side that's why IPv6 took more than 2= 3 years and until now no full action are taken, IPmix does not, clients are= not required to do anything, if you are using IPv4 only, keep using it, bu= t the "system" should be updated to support IPmix, which is easier than dep= loying IPv6. > Introducing something like IPmix would be more difficult than simply depl= oying IPv6. For now, these are the requirements to call a host an IPmix host: For IPv4-only hosts --> The only requirement is that the IPv4 packet be rep= laced by the IPv6 packet and the IPv4 address be replaced by the IPv4-embed= ded IPv6 address and the host can understand an IPv6 address and insert it = in the destination IP address (system update). For IPv6-only hosts --> The only requirement is that the host can understan= d an IPv4 address and replace it by an IPv4-embedded IPv6 address and the h= ost can handle the packet normally (system update). All these two requirements requires no efforts from the client side, they d= on't have to do anything more than accepting the updates. > IPv4 only hosts would never be able to reach the whole IPv6 address space= . Who said never, it is achieved in this I-D, it is true without modification= to the IPv4 host. =20 > For IPv6 only hosts we have NAT64/DNS64 to let them talk to the IPv4 worl= d. Does this support communication using IP address rather than hostnames? Does this requires a "public IPv4 address" on the external interface of the= NAT64 device? > BTW: There are still remnants of IPv.. in the document (sections 4.2 and = 7). Please remove them in any future versions as it will confuse people out= side the IETF. Modified. Regards, Khaled Omar -----Original Message----- From: Bless, Roland (TM) [mailto:roland.bless@kit.edu]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:38 AM To: Khaled Omar ; v6ops@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.or= g; softwires@ietf.org Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01. Hi Omar, > Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the=20 > IPmix I-D. I couldn't see any substantial changes, so there are still the same issues = with this proposal: - The draft states: "It solves the issue of allowing IPv6 only hosts to communicate to IPv4 only hosts and vice versa in a simple and very efficient way." =3D> This is simply wrong: "IPv4 only" and "IPv6 only" hosts would not be able to speak IPmix by definition of "only". This is a fundamental contradiction in your proposal. If an IPv4 host would be upgraded with IPmix, there is no reason to not let it upgrade to IPv6 and be it a dual stack host. Problem solved. - Introducing something like IPmix would be more difficult than simply deploying IPv6. - IPv4 only hosts would never be able to reach the whole IPv6 address space - For IPv6 only hosts we have NAT64/DNS64 to let them talk to the IPv4 world All these issues have been mentioned before. If you don't consider them, do= n't expect any more comments. BTW: There are still remnants of IPv.. in the document (sections 4.2 and 7)= . Please remove them in any future versions as it will confuse people outsi= de the IETF. Regards Roland From nobody Wed Nov 14 04:24:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A72B12F1A5; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:23:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 44YdEgr4jr8T; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F8CD126F72; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E344D4A; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:23:30 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1542198207; bh=B7WACBnho2Oyc1/MNVEoDGRWM8u0d4ZEw7Z4meR6I8o=; b=n Jt2DUYU2eDF4iNzkNNxFBdNuzOterr7Fdylg+VFot3SVjrUhfjB4HdfMcorG/ssV qvCobJikFWXd9WCbOjOMsJWSaSTdHGo9WWLdM22g7PqYLYPt4jSSf8AMvkVO9zT6 nlQyFOp7RxpInCLym1Plb6y+pt8FAo+P2rKdslTYL4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Y_cclZN2RYRV; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:23:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:a156:c82:82f:41b2] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:a156:c82:82f:41b2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13E8249; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:23:27 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:23:26 +0100 Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> To: Khaled Omar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:23:38 -0000 Hi, > Let's take it step by step, first I'm not asking the IETF to publish = the document as an RFC as version 01, there are more to add. >=20 >> This is simply wrong: "IPv4 only" and "IPv6 only" hosts would not be = able to speak IPmix by definition of "only". This is a fundamental = contradiction in your proposal.=20 >=20 > "Only" means the assigned IP address for the host is either IPv4 only = or IPv6 only. "Only" doesn't just refer to the addresses, it refers to the entire = protocol stack. >> If an IPv4 host would be upgraded with IPmix, there is no reason to = not let it upgrade to IPv6 and be it a dual stack host. Problem solved. >=20 > IPmix is not an address as IPv6 to be assigned, the host will not be = upgraded but it will be updated. An "update" that is more complex than an "upgrade" to IPv6. It requires = changes to routers to handle the packets, it requires changes to hosts = to handle the packets, it requires changes to routing etc etc etc. This draft doesn't help in any way, and therefore should be dropped. Cheers, Sander PS: you have tried this before, and since you don't seem to get the = message let me be blunt: this whole idea is BS, you don't seem to have a = clue about protocol design, implementation, interactions and deployment, = so please withdraw this and stop wasting our time. PPS: sorry to the rest of the list for the bluntness From nobody Wed Nov 14 04:38:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B271292F1 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:38:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lUhnWQX6lwhE for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A05BF130DEB for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:38:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D8041C10 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:38:19 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A5941C0F; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:38:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 83D846E636; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:38:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:38:19 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Sander Steffann Cc: Khaled Omar , "softwires@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181114123819.GV72840@Space.Net> References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:38:24 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 01:23:26PM +0100, Sander Steffann wrote: > This draft doesn't help in any way, and therefore should be dropped. This. > PPS: sorry to the rest of the list for the bluntness Dutch-style clear and unambiguous wording. :-) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Nov 14 05:08:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8BA130E07; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:07:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sXLEavDkz6h4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092067106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.67.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02A30130DDF; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:07:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=eFtR5gHFzGUbGxE9iO6MItIsz4HIwcX0mV1T3jlv1yo=; b=Rm8YvxxOj3ADPkjTVv1yX0uIk9ImWidz0eGunj8gANj0+BVBzG8B62J9Pyh2G8QbiL+GvzouwZ4tJTHSRxpHE1HC/v4TYOiFEmRZlUeGB+amG3RCa7kq2q6DqpNTxBl2ccmEUdUv8YKoPA9q4zAM5xcHxy89PTecNMBHjgEScXr4x2u+cOUoctDeQihV+kMp+GW3g7KfnnrU3plTNpVzUqIJwFu9Y7feCuB1B2h/p49RGVHkS2HTjoewMAUidPBB1zYX1fDfFOROrizBNMB6IRIx0AdbZdpXe5Qnbl2d5FYel37tONRSvFFuLSeuQYytMNO6FakZCcjH5uyT5g2kaA== Received: from VE1EUR02FT007.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.57) by VE1EUR02HT188.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.13.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:07:52 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.12.57) by VE1EUR02FT007.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:07:52 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:07:52 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Sander Steffann CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgAlvT6AAAIDCoAABeCDAAAA/RTw Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:07:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:43241C12F2CD55A337B3BFB9B9188637A28C839D4C428FA4710D94FEC27E991D; UpperCasedChecksum:7CE1C55E16944565D726B86C37B9C21DA0C3602049583A23F2C0AA7B85BB62BB; SizeAsReceived:7322; Count:46 x-tmn: [73Yx5pqzh6xFulrQXji+uJZGRq8mScnX] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT188; 6:s0bniqMr6jiTwhgLyhfwRz/szrJ0x/IVUQpfJAUMMePQh6n5UI09nD9Duy80FvW4SMYQTkVtY90esquKHK3ZpQFiw6tdt3hKBaZ4TyDr+PJqjIo/oOUj/003Vpic5crPULqZ89pKQmsHSCScp7ADHvxfWUYimHCOZFjJIwnXcrPv4YzA+NNKNninceWB9IsFLvnZEiLG7m92hBWfQ7a8SiMbpxmyqXUjqPlibE+4g17VXQi8EqL8gI34nib1WcsLzeFeNs3LSQVWmgUw/N3AfYWJHyHS9ejpHCgM1OFOHMrj/4SVzuth2U1VF1DPGAwiMXLb5JUjVw5cuMi5w+8MZExeKSjm8pAa4YfSfoh16AciiCTWK5cblbo6yVmyDYoR3C/YGYZ5bwqEeMMXkN+lJs6fh2vh+TZc4Eaj2D6901oS5zKCNxC2bqACrG+XktuSEaF+hdAC/iPe5aTIAHYNig==; 5:WIoTV0z7iXYcDveR6ny/4ntFUqL3Vw8204wbsTJpg4vPX7SUb78fOvcFHwwcWIdWJiI/pJKhno+uUan1Pze5cnVsCyCSaJZseu4Fly6qOjiU93WrIRtpDPgqkxfgZjSgtiJNTEJgTE6RpdazGedUgXoFW3JRJrKNYvGxqoS4ZNo=; 7:ZTj71C6Ct6774xY1TJqZH9FGiEUyIvb3wEvq908lzSHNB/O+Q0+Qo8x+RGC7wLMXua2Xq1x7ETnUeYcIjwBG+CI2kJKvzj4zznhKyFi6ZJlA2wD9tmWpX2WDHQd/r/xeZdJh7qcW5Gb6xRx6x1+nEw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT188; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR02HT188: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT188; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT188; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: LIjdAiB7ug8t/rstCUVD/uYpmWXje+9mCRsZOCyGXaDlpzzBXEkilME8gPq7GCef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c059e2be-3e34-456f-f435-08d64a322f6d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 13:07:52.3158 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT188 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:07:58 -0000 Hi, > An "update" that is more complex than an "upgrade" to IPv6. It requires c= hanges to routers to handle the packets, it requires changes to hosts to ha= ndle the packets, it requires changes to routing etc etc etc. Updating --> does not depends on clients (can we try to decrease the change= s?). Upgrading --> depends on clients (will we keep waiting them until the end o= f days!). P.S. clients have the right not to upgrade, there are no benefits, it is no= t their problem that people who designed IPv4 didn't make the address large= enough to cover the huge expansion, so they shouldn't solve a problem that= is not their own, this is how they think. Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Sander Steffann [mailto:sander@steffann.nl]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 2:23 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org; softwires@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. Hi, > Let's take it step by step, first I'm not asking the IETF to publish the = document as an RFC as version 01, there are more to add. >=20 >> This is simply wrong: "IPv4 only" and "IPv6 only" hosts would not be abl= e to speak IPmix by definition of "only". This is a fundamental contradicti= on in your proposal.=20 >=20 > "Only" means the assigned IP address for the host is either IPv4 only or = IPv6 only. "Only" doesn't just refer to the addresses, it refers to the entire protoco= l stack. >> If an IPv4 host would be upgraded with IPmix, there is no reason to not = let it upgrade to IPv6 and be it a dual stack host. Problem solved. >=20 > IPmix is not an address as IPv6 to be assigned, the host will not be upgr= aded but it will be updated. An "update" that is more complex than an "upgrade" to IPv6. It requires cha= nges to routers to handle the packets, it requires changes to hosts to hand= le the packets, it requires changes to routing etc etc etc. This draft doesn't help in any way, and therefore should be dropped. Cheers, Sander PS: you have tried this before, and since you don't seem to get the message= let me be blunt: this whole idea is BS, you don't seem to have a clue abou= t protocol design, implementation, interactions and deployment, so please w= ithdraw this and stop wasting our time. PPS: sorry to the rest of the list for the bluntness From nobody Wed Nov 14 05:11:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61562130DF4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:10:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5L75QIhH86Zw; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A530612007C; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D744A; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:10:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1542201050; bh=y9abSdVzdNE1XZkTmTdTqmRNICziIzYx+teAwlI+eoc=; b=U 1khFLuCrnm1MeA4SMn9VAfDdL4AaN/L6xGrALcJzOUV1tyC8e2ZTfL9sN4Mhvivp bEIkV1rwmwo9FyQXgWm6b+noM1+TcorGYZf6+0by8D2wYIto2blGJBeayIVCcKmS 8jQobGpkEGsZYCtCZqnu2S++lDbnuMafauuloXPqvQ= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id PyqwQXskskKY; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:10:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:a156:c82:82f:41b2] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:a156:c82:82f:41b2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E96449; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:10:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:10:48 +0100 Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> To: Khaled Omar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:10:58 -0000 > Updating --> does not depends on clients (can we try to decrease the = changes?). > Upgrading --> depends on clients (will we keep waiting them until the = end of days!). Clients will need to work with the new packet header, therefore they = need changes, therefore your idea depends on changes in clients. Please drop this and stop wasting our time. This will be my last reply = to you. Sander From nobody Wed Nov 14 05:41:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0F4130E66; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:41:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1I_6erqGOcU3; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092069016.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.69.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9B06130934; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:41:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZNu1bqk5zme7IVfmQfw+bdrAxz9ZmA5ePNYQXZzskMk=; b=Fx7vwFTp18fCHbWckFSyf8cNIXBjsb+SFqNX9ZqqhZFsRI9QYay/Z0Nfprx+1st00V1BfRuw93LfHahBs5T2sQYcgbB1tlUgFFkO+OCKucNblkPj4ONjvrUa+qe17MZ/NOiHZv+ozlzkkyJ7/rZOgvFG6Ug5cCkvsrMTgQVAmUSSgpwW8ngMNZDHSDkoaw2QCGs934ee0sDuinO28VsLnyKHieSBAyyUMWH30VOE3fU8sSXCOQcaKAdyQXKaSmVgmrSH4oaKEK/k0xk5h/gKY7XBgB9AQnov91r/IZ3t5F5pP4KVTfcFH+THsI6yBUDuPWIyv+Ai6+1xHpcg+ZuALg== Received: from VE1EUR02FT031.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.58) by VE1EUR02HT011.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.206) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:41:12 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.12.54) by VE1EUR02FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:41:12 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:41:12 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Sander Steffann CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgAlvT6AAAIDCoAABeCDAAAA/RTwAACqagAAAM8I0A== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:41:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:7C92EFE4ADE7B258D0B796F492F7BE10677BA80CD804453CB6D2E0E920E31BB4; UpperCasedChecksum:426716C7DDF68A893C51F7545B0C04DB36C87E9D5C219A687C42C7D883DDC746; SizeAsReceived:7480; Count:46 x-tmn: [Yb2Gcqd2/ay3vAiVyU3ZVlwD0FRMf3nv] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT011; 6:IPK/R0cbtc8o8h/WasWqN51WneqIcYZfUFI7/YFKe1rdUvRFJw1DpXWyl+kx4Xtcz5govoYpHczhGlYv9uFvmWKIZ8cZE3nz2J8nweHoLOzMBFhMcW1ECCBIpotRNlkGPJn5VT5kClxsfcJnZkxXVKPGhChA3fmrtTb0nQN7LqdJroZIrJt8HBfCTEMnczZg0wB2VahfW2+C05vl2c8/cUghkVkHwjZrEm2d1oZBuQM8Lqs5IWDbYyOA2HR5rX+AADXQnxspoXmcpOU8XfPlLf+ZY9UAfxraWC0qCTMr87ZNdc44bMuaziuFMWeQEySrvgbNSkpWU13X7gK2FPTMAzfqBwj3vXT2qSaBb8r48JWfq7Pvxy76S0LTUDC5YqsGZJ8dLV+WNvwr4ZK9F1hLn8cyq182dITzBq5al0BqDBHXYZsQJ0dbdVZKHN6YmAbNKtnPEgpKu1qTpP8eZRthwg==; 5:pbUr0oez8+kBYqduNMXoUormyybeJSgSEpi8Sbrt3oK8QjWB7P3aFLfjPPvdkBkeqIwAaxgStenKJ9MozvLKLJwmBs8Japg3FInAHwtZtUhVLqDp8EFK9sSkPx/6ju7I0JzpOTQxigL1Wc46Z/Pm4oNQnmIXivugr9MrRQdOAvU=; 7:Cb0ln3N6BUMJVU6ELwSTpe2x4F3weqyrYQSTpcbF1yUn8nZarRf+Z2oPLuhEHc4w/k5y5LKCIeGDA5XTU4W/LSnRQZ/xkPwahYVe80WpQJtQEc7J3zmiy85rOuOhVAZ7mZYatEZWYw7LgdBQIY07vw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT011; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR02HT011: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT011; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT011; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qwd88y4M35HyxjAFw+q/PGPaW3ebnDdiIcs/LMBuDhpKBphiiS6W05T0iFZUnSwI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 917669d2-81d6-40a5-caa3-08d64a36d76b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 13:41:12.1838 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT011 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:41:17 -0000 > Clients will need to work with the new packet header, therefore they need= changes, therefore your idea depends on changes in clients. For now, at the host, the system will change the IPv4 address to an IPv4-em= bedded IPv6 address, how this depends on clients! Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Sander Steffann [mailto:sander@steffann.nl]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 3:11 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org; softwires@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. > Updating --> does not depends on clients (can we try to decrease the chan= ges?). > Upgrading --> depends on clients (will we keep waiting them until the end= of days!). Clients will need to work with the new packet header, therefore they need c= hanges, therefore your idea depends on changes in clients. Please drop this and stop wasting our time. This will be my last reply to y= ou. Sander From nobody Wed Nov 14 07:39:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DAB130E5B; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:39:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ah_u7tjvw3YP; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 145C11292AD; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAEFd7mH031521; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:39:07 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.220]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAEFcv4Z031423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:38:57 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdc::8988:efdc) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:38:56 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:38:56 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ole Troan CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgAFfpZA= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:38:56 +0000 Message-ID: <92d850554f0740b3bd7d76e29ffaa484@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 2458E32CC0C99C3856AD3E8385475F8867E7EA4430D8378194A2DA3693547A262000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:39:10 -0000 T2xlLA0KDQpZb3UgZGlkbid0IHJlc3BvbmQgdG8gbXkgcG9pbnQgd2hpY2ggaXMgcmVhbGx5IGF0 IHRoZSBoZWFydCBvZiB0aGUgbWF0dGVyOg0KDQo+ID4gPiBJdCBpcyBhbHNvIGltcG9ydGFudCB0 aGF0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBmZXdlciBtZXNzYWdlcyAtIHR3byBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIGZvdXIuIFRoYXQg bWF0dGVycw0KPiA+ID4gYSBncmVhdCBkZWFsIG9uIGxvdyBlbmQgbGlua3MuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJ IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gc2VlIHRoZSBtYXRocyBiZWhpbmQgdGhhdC4NCj4gPiBVc2UgaGVhZGVy IGNvbXByZXNzaW9uIHRoZW4uDQo+IA0KPiBJdCBpc24ndCBvbmx5IGEgcXVlc3Rpb24gb2YgaG93 IG1hbnkgYnl0ZXMgLSB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gaXMgbW9yZXNvIGhvdw0KPiBtYW55IGNoYW5uZWwg YWNjZXNzZXMgYXJlIG5lY2Vzc2FyeS4gT24gc29tZSBsaW5rcywgc2VuZGluZyBldmVyeXRoaW5n IGluDQo+IGEgc2luZ2xlIGNoYW5uZWwgYWNjZXNzIGlzIGxlc3MgcHJvbmUgdG8gY29sbGlzaW9u cyB0aGFuIHJlcXVpcmluZyBtdWx0aXBsZQ0KPiBjaGFubmVsIGFjY2Vzc2VzLg0KDQpGZXdlciBt ZXNzYWdlcyBhcmUgZmV3ZXIgbWVzc2FnZXMuIE9uIGNvbmdlc3RlZCBsaW5rcyB3aXRoIGxvdHMg b2YNCmNoYW5uZWwgY29udGVudGlvbiB0aGF0IGlzIGFuIGltcG9ydGFudCBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9u Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MgLSBGcmVkDQo= From nobody Wed Nov 14 08:31:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37523130DD7; 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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:31:39 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: <92d850554f0740b3bd7d76e29ffaa484@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:36 +0100 Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <92d850554f0740b3bd7d76e29ffaa484@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:31:42 -0000 Fred, > On 14 Nov 2018, at 16:38, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > Ole, >=20 > You didn't respond to my point which is really at the heart of the matter:= >=20 >>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of fou= r. That matters >>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>=20 >>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>> Use header compression then. >>=20 >> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso how >> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everything in= >> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring multip= le >> channel accesses. >=20 > Fewer messages are fewer messages. On congested links with lots of > channel contention that is an important consideration. If this is such a big concern, what are you doing with all the other ND chat= ter? Perhaps you should drop ND on these links and do only DHCP? :-) Or preconfigure everything so you don=E2=80=99t need to send any packets at a= ll? Do you have data on the behavior of this link type, showing the effects you a= re referring to? Cheers=20 Ole= From nobody Wed Nov 14 08:39:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27715130EB7 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:39:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qv_XswF_Hsu for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 112B5130DD7 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:39:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104E741C44 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:01 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DB741C0F; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id EDC5E37852; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:00 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Khaled Omar Cc: Sander Steffann , "softwires@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181114163900.GY72840@Space.Net> References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:39:05 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 01:41:12PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Clients will need to work with the new packet header, therefore they need changes, therefore your idea depends on changes in clients. > > For now, at the host, the system will change the IPv4 address to an IPv4-embedded IPv6 address, how this depends on clients! And how will the software on the host do this? Without changes? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Nov 14 08:54:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7384A130DE4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:54:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZ4pGj5Fx0Fq; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B7EE128D09; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAEGsNnx023275; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:54:23 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.219]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAEGsIKl023140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:54:18 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:54:17 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:54:17 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ole Troan CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgAFfpZCAAJWlAP//e8Ag Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:54:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <92d850554f0740b3bd7d76e29ffaa484@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: A796A606D93FDA51AAE6D146065EF28EC098D16B07994D008081C358A2EFD7722000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:54:27 -0000 SGkgT2xlLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE9sZSBUcm9h biBbbWFpbHRvOm90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE5vdmVt YmVyIDE0LCAyMDE4IDg6MzIgQU0NCj4gVG86IFRlbXBsaW4gKFVTKSwgRnJlZCBMIDxGcmVkLkwu VGVtcGxpbkBib2VpbmcuY29tPg0KPiBDYzogdjZvcHMgbGlzdCA8djZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyA2 bWFuIFdHIDxpcHY2QGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3Y2b3BzXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lv biBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LW5hdmVlbi1zbGFhYy1wcmVmaXgtbWFuYWdlbWVudC0w MC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IEZyZWQsDQo+IA0KPiA+IE9uIDE0IE5vdiAyMDE4LCBhdCAxNjozOCwgVGVt cGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgPEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gT2xlLA0KPiA+DQo+ID4gWW91IGRpZG4ndCByZXNwb25kIHRvIG15IHBvaW50IHdoaWNo IGlzIHJlYWxseSBhdCB0aGUgaGVhcnQgb2YgdGhlIG1hdHRlcjoNCj4gPg0KPiA+Pj4+IEl0IGlz IGFsc28gaW1wb3J0YW50IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGZld2VyIG1lc3NhZ2VzIC0gdHdvIGluc3Rl YWQgb2YgZm91ci4gVGhhdCBtYXR0ZXJzDQo+ID4+Pj4gYSBncmVhdCBkZWFsIG9uIGxvdyBlbmQg bGlua3MuDQo+ID4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4gSSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSB0aGUgbWF0aHMgYmVoaW5k IHRoYXQuDQo+ID4+PiBVc2UgaGVhZGVyIGNvbXByZXNzaW9uIHRoZW4uDQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+IEl0 IGlzbid0IG9ubHkgYSBxdWVzdGlvbiBvZiBob3cgbWFueSBieXRlcyAtIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBp cyBtb3Jlc28gaG93DQo+ID4+IG1hbnkgY2hhbm5lbCBhY2Nlc3NlcyBhcmUgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LiBP biBzb21lIGxpbmtzLCBzZW5kaW5nIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgaW4NCj4gPj4gYSBzaW5nbGUgY2hhbm5l bCBhY2Nlc3MgaXMgbGVzcyBwcm9uZSB0byBjb2xsaXNpb25zIHRoYW4gcmVxdWlyaW5nIG11bHRp cGxlDQo+ID4+IGNoYW5uZWwgYWNjZXNzZXMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBGZXdlciBtZXNzYWdlcyBhcmUg ZmV3ZXIgbWVzc2FnZXMuIE9uIGNvbmdlc3RlZCBsaW5rcyB3aXRoIGxvdHMgb2YNCj4gPiBjaGFu bmVsIGNvbnRlbnRpb24gdGhhdCBpcyBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbi4NCj4gDQo+ IElmIHRoaXMgaXMgc3VjaCBhIGJpZyBjb25jZXJuLCB3aGF0IGFyZSB5b3UgZG9pbmcgd2l0aCBh bGwgdGhlIG90aGVyIE5EIGNoYXR0ZXI/DQoNCkRBRCBpcyBkaXNhYmxlZCwgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGVy ZSBpcyBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBhc3N1cmFuY2UgdGhhdCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgd2lsbA0KYmUgdW5pcXVl LiBOVUQgaXMgbm90IG5lZWRlZCBlaXRoZXIuIEFsbCB0aGF0IGlzIG5lZWRlZCBpcyBSUy9SQS4N Cg0KPiBQZXJoYXBzIHlvdSBzaG91bGQgZHJvcCBORCBvbiB0aGVzZSBsaW5rcyBhbmQgZG8gb25s eSBESENQPyA6LSkNCg0KREhDUHY2IGRvZXMgbm90IGRlbGl2ZXIgZGVmYXVsdCByb3V0ZXIgbGlm ZXRpbWUsIG9uLWxpbmsgcHJlZml4IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLA0KU0xMQU8sIG5vciBhbnkgb3RoZXIg cGFyYW1ldGVycyBjYXJyaWVkIHVuaXF1ZWx5IGJ5IFJTL1JBLiBXZSBuZWVkDQp0aGF0IGluZm9y bWF0aW9uLg0KDQo+IE9yIHByZWNvbmZpZ3VyZSBldmVyeXRoaW5nIHNvIHlvdSBkb27igJl0IG5l ZWQgdG8gc2VuZCBhbnkgcGFja2V0cyBhdCBhbGw/DQoNClRoZXJlIGFyZSB1c2UgY2FzZXMgd2hl cmUgYSBtb2JpbGUgbm9kZSBzdWNoIGFzIGFuIGFpcnBsYW5lIGlzIHByZS1wcm92aXNpb25lZA0K d2l0aCBhIE1vYmlsZSBOZXR3b3JrIFByZWZpeCAoTU5QKS4gQnV0LCB3aGVuIHRoZSBub2RlIGNv bWVzIG9udG8gdGhlDQpuZXR3b3JrIGl0IHN0aWxsIG5lZWRzIHRvIHJlZ2lzdGVyIGl0cyBNTlAg d2l0aCB0aGUgbmV0d29yayBzbyB0aGF0IHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrDQp3aWxsIHNldCB1cCB0aGUgY29y cmVjdCByb3V0aW5nIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLiBESENQdjYgUEQgaXMgYSBnb29kIHdheSB0byBkbyB0 aGF0Lg0KDQo+IERvIHlvdSBoYXZlIGRhdGEgb24gdGhlIGJlaGF2aW9yIG9mIHRoaXMgbGluayB0 eXBlLCBzaG93aW5nIHRoZSBlZmZlY3RzIHlvdSBhcmUgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvPw0KDQpUaGUgcmVh bGl0eSBmb3IgdG9kYXkgYW5kIGludG8gdGhlIG5lYXIgZnV0dXJlIGlzIHRoYXQgd2UgaGF2ZSAz MkticHMgZm9yIFZIRg0KdGVycmVzdHJpYWwgY2VsbHVsYXIgYW5kIDI1NktCIGZvciBTQVRDT00u IEZvciB0aGUgbG9uZ2VyIHRlcm0sIHRoZXJlIG1heSBiZQ0KbmV3IFNBVENPTSBzZXJ2aWNlcyBh cyB3ZWxsIGFzIDFNYnBzIGZvciBhIGZ1dHVyZSB0ZXJyZXN0cmlhbCBjZWxsdWxhciBsaW5rIHRo YXQNCm1heSBvciBtYXkgbm90IGV2ZXIgYmUgZGVwbG95ZWQuDQoNCkJ1dCwgd2hhdCBpcyBnb29k IGluIHRoaXMgZW52aXJvbm1lbnQgYXBwbGllcyBtb3JlIGJyb2FkbHkgdG8gb3RoZXIgbW9yZQ0K cm9idXN0IGVudmlyb25tZW50cy4gRmV3ZXIgbWVzc2FnZXMgaXMgc3RpbGwgZmV3ZXIgbWVzc2Fn ZXMuDQoNClRoYW5rcyAtIEZyZWQNCg0KPiBDaGVlcnMNCj4gT2xlDQo= From nobody Wed Nov 14 09:58:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E8012F1AC; 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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:58:13 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:58:13 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Gert Doering CC: Sander Steffann , "softwires@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgAlvT6AAAIDCoAABeCDAAAA/RTwAACqagAAAM8I0AAGdmwAAAJ28BA= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:58:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <20181114163900.GY72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181114163900.GY72840@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:E500EDEA5179DA81CA79AC4D061ED8A058FDE369C8CD51BD4CD67858E3DA9525; UpperCasedChecksum:C669EB176285A7824C66DAE48690C02F66223A0B4512AEA0079497069B6F0F5E; SizeAsReceived:7636; Count:46 x-tmn: [n5qPt1Rgd6eUR3J3Klkhn00Hn85QDqIi] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT124; 6:5b/tugmXHE2luhQO8azK+4dKgexL6w/BKSJiUdk5jHXHgMrN6u43b+bfH+Gd/36MPj33LaztvMO/3+zjRhNxbH3D6X9P/i7a7vJAX8OCyFUPAbuHRhmF5DJ4agZZvnw7ROL5EN7uYxkEUC6T8+k00/TpzT37KFu/uwi9nUhP/b3E+KPgcl9SRJWJDH0pS1TCFkR9RTWJ1Hzdw0jdGuDbNMK7QsjOEtAwY9LwaYjwZBfZtpD0LnMye2LT+UBpw/mTyi1K7pidIBepEpsJWygsuMoSOZ88H0NGkJoIsDki++nYoJ/BPCq8pNiBrDQkUHPe0O70Z7YGMxY4C6rRcDYy2XTgjjpsKFsOvEx6lTbhGKEu2yEfgrQosFfqXa6EVztT35ufduo6oM7kdBfNsCOEAK2zw//xFbYFykmoLZxx+9Mg8kh18M8j0IQI4IwRDJPqtPsvQIo8dDHV9EoEagz4xw==; 5:zuu6d5w39f/gLUKa9VtMrNVyrKchhk4KDdcAUBNkHQRdWBI4FsGAyxS6aFwPg3FlnsGfXXtRVXh5csx44pD1hsPgboa9r8WB9hzkD0DqMfvHhNiMEtbfYoHgWaBx0fOdz04A3R+oJSwCNHySelPL2PqEQtDgvpwb4AbE4UM8qVo=; 7:DvsN/sXvr7lgh5NSJ3pWsj9bN0ey8G1cKObfxcL/b4j1eeRxOgcXk8tcVPKENbLaQbd1WPc/VhhpaVDHDOddFjtxpawvtA05Yapa/57eTUR1R6ZKgoXYqLQfSjwmNH6BAtNfjB7SQ2PEwN7t6mBGqA== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT124; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR01HT124: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT124; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT124; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: WK74lJXRO0Vx0F3Q7FP1NUWrSEMozvvuzFvXcuVJg+VR/ojbWwhuxjQDKQTaUtaT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f07029be-d0f3-467f-7110-08d64a5abeff X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 17:58:12.9936 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT124 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:58:19 -0000 Hi, > And how will the software on the host do this? Without changes? I mean who will do the changes, clients will do nothing, the IPv4 packet wi= ll be replaced by the IPv6 packet, the IPv4 address will be configured the = same but it will be translated into an IPv4-embedded IPv6 address in the IP= v6 packet, this is what I call IPmix host. Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:39 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Sander Steffann ; softwires@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.or= g; ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. Hi, On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 01:41:12PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Clients will need to work with the new packet header, therefore they ne= ed changes, therefore your idea depends on changes in clients. >=20 > For now, at the host, the system will change the IPv4 address to an IPv4-= embedded IPv6 address, how this depends on clients! And how will the software on the host do this? Without changes? Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Nov 14 10:52:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C20D129AB8; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8owVFX8wM_ky; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3C1C12D4E8; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id 96so1583428wrb.2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=6TmzbrnAajqsGdt4laGiI8YcsC4MGz1TOQn7LL9YhM4=; b=hRclKn/w7G6ohsQlIdsBhsKQb9xDEIfeQo4oBY/4hox5ytOZxRQaDUE5HCUW2/iHRl 5HarLw8qupJNLjLPdaWObDRcAlJVXtS66bhwyI+sThydrTwxyricJ0KRQ4HpySsQY7fG xX/0WXfFLLeuJK1+9PN9O7p3M5h+vizfN/aucLOmNUqCQYtcplYKqgx8qeHRaswO6/rZ 2JtSRrrmtGa2ovMJ4yrzvGO/Pd84ZAT58kGyvfTSxSi07Aa7DRRSeOyqax2wqY6cYw9K Op7gyVo0235PBNwvxEfOTSDU+eFOHGNM/iRviLtra+WHQxbht6TvAotmZ1mlf5HwWSsP eq7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=6TmzbrnAajqsGdt4laGiI8YcsC4MGz1TOQn7LL9YhM4=; b=VsEv/dVrR9OMU3rXso0zaReyk3UWPdTW/vUcf0tGL2g+RaVGCc7nGwHSPwGGJJvnNi P924WkRft4wJiHuytQBE1EAKdDNAjuNBqm3umufphAQ4faKq8XwDMk2cYf9vvB/YDWAE NYuUVulHgBNVgEo7Yve3TLX2hdZPbl60d9yuJ/gL3FyRWVeOtFc6Tl+hLPlY82vYpBqg e2F3z4Xz1wwJxfFtGZBkrPpyx28qh0UY1XGbYiMGu/uUL83OKUesPB/YL58cNpvH85Pd fuz0/scdYtDKueLoZ3uB0NRE6L/VnQUFWoCuljA/xEZ+hTcgDncbdp2TB+7QpHnDEFfP PRvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJRxD2PzVvxfODAEHPLMDbDUaOjLx0DI91S3OtXnfvOSSya3fZ3 BlMoANmdtJi3iQI0MBS7vyeldjhu X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dWnyCOp0RhqjDg3ZUwBagJvE86+S/kGsXOalKxzAD2elBfovoegRxMwMeuChqE0LpnGAAWxg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:cd0c:: with SMTP id w12-v6mr3137059wrm.67.1542221558125; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4d01:f3a:513d:c5c4:899c:ce82? ([2601:647:4d01:f3a:513d:c5c4:899c:ce82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 64-v6sm17884655wml.22.2018.11.14.10.52.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <6E2F71D3-1067-49FB-B4F6-0FB0379605B0@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0079C0AF-2EDD-4A54-B39B-7DE3E0206757"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:52:33 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List , "softwires@ietf.org" , Suresh Krishnan To: Khaled Omar References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:52:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0079C0AF-2EDD-4A54-B39B-7DE3E0206757 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Khaled, The 6man working group chairs think a discussion of IPmix is out of = scope for the ipv6@ietf.org list (and suspect the same for v6ops list as = well). We request that the you not send email on this topic to these = lists and anyone responding remove these lists from the cc:. Thanks, Bob & Ole > On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Khaled Omar = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the = IPmix I-D. >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Khaled Omar >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail=_0079C0AF-2EDD-4A54-B39B-7DE3E0206757 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlvsbvEACgkQrut0EXfn u6jDbQf/W+jOImH6PQXpedYV+QO9ANpxlyzhyPiBEJfpnAxFXW7jXrIcdukokecj M4F3qJmPHOchs0fODgOcKgW/NDEL8lte4duRak7FVtOHkQcxSwC1zFjhoFz672QY oOI3rYka0SbYCblB2jet1FC4o9SCADtxbUFWyNzMuUmLmz3gYVbHemkuF1o9H/UJ LHdgb5D5xCyMn+J+vCnEjXSFDS1x+kRQabK+/jlUSzxDU4dwpzU3NCsvvfsis6wO zYPBCUm7iNklK8gpmkGefrkvRXaPtjZcTVPNLRwAt+dtD1dZn7xUkdjdPEpL8P16 aNzdbhS+LCEXtwAb311Wbcj1FdAG8A== =H47a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0079C0AF-2EDD-4A54-B39B-7DE3E0206757-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 11:31:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58136130DBE; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:31:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gs-tlawbNdw8; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092069073.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.69.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5454912777C; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:31:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1Sa1eXeSSedWjcx/TokrkHQ6BLLnyXl8uP95jSWPcWM=; b=Ver/6w+aIHut6DUQup/yYbk8yTIInxH1OjI/l8N+pmVMvcLTtc+ddeFlG7A5A/9odiXpPT3zk9VHWNS710mFKtlCJWEtokMFaYj+9NSvoj3gT9rbn8dBUC2P0CM+IlMenE7JsJc0YlNxkntqfUtllOzVuQLG18XtyNbw+BTQ++2WcRNGS8MJM75KR/vzW6ig4iG/ijxg3V+DziOxf6GDnjMtqz3yO1vmqBAwi/YyKZaWkFmtQfz8DjXA2oHJ8nug+Z/ZipsDpAxXQruWbLhpb5Qw48cfj3GXkFg7hgGSPSJCYgiMHKv49VHDYEONKb5xl2QonWr6iFZwYbqnP0Q7qQ== Received: from AM5EUR02FT034.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.58) by AM5EUR02HT081.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.202) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:31:30 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.57) by AM5EUR02FT034.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.118) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:31:30 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:31:30 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Bob Hinden CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List , "softwires@ietf.org" , Suresh Krishnan Thread-Topic: IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgA7N8WAAAE9ZuA= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:31:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6E2F71D3-1067-49FB-B4F6-0FB0379605B0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6E2F71D3-1067-49FB-B4F6-0FB0379605B0@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:A3169BFA71ED27A35860C70EAAE1EE04B76A8F4536840A95610E74DEA299A188; UpperCasedChecksum:87BEF2550980137113D52B2BE6C42E554A32965B733CAFB3493244FEB2D93A0B; SizeAsReceived:7201; Count:46 x-tmn: [vT4Qw2lcf/rWmEriPTGS+Gph/fm1Nspi] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT081; 6:iP3KH8kMdiF+spGiu2XLuctEiAT+bCqOZBDXBTiHJN0BdCemkENqfskUJid/Bfj85o2KLk/N4524slDVdZl8xVvxrCvXl+NMPKsH0L3pjauh3jBvKIqFt8mMsGngXG3Le12Fd6DvJdZLoQ9KqBlOqqMfhXob3DAaGLvKWn9M2qlr+aZ9nCP35L+zSzmglk93IgBtl1bI6fXAvmwaHu958bCwRPHnttsBkfTIZJ2hLMS1Qz3icvUMizljZuYNb5i7g627Ybdv3UxvoiyYTl3eHNCgjQc5RyRFZNHPJHV1gR2oe4wvjLSXRs1JaTF4tWzI6ucoqTUoJLnHuoULJDZOyVbL9UUONlEoULzjOe7yn8ZzzAuks9F0NemwPJkS7Wadb/gT/CadiaGu7ETpdxBBhm+eedIWsjEzawCCL2tFSSB2UPbBPL2LtrbeiMFNmqx9glAIqkW1jyH9mvoYyJ4nhA==; 5:+PSYifRoB2wZhStWqvDg6fd7DOJu+TfwlqHcP+adsiKHFXKCydfgqU4Urn42KrGxmPS/SobN1pkwN2ODuhd2YXJkzIhDiXdPW2RpmBZ+/A8q/Fc10mu/h2P32fuTZhhXzbVCttBNfTbe7QLCYjocsLIazbItWF2zjXJlqT1BWEU=; 7:sfLk09Fbd8sD+ZvS7SKyfHqlE9kHohuoHWLlR+9jVbopG27oVK+XgYIPTLVFHeeCCnowYVEsyRP+JCmYCm4S4aZYqiNewdhWyPwNI4aU92OHWFxXba06D/cz3mWkOqS79lqyv5xod//2vcYtEFX7pw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT081; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT081: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT081; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT081; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: DH+pn0T8i8rNITgDMLy1AtBIa/g+8LQthWk0xQrz5R/q6mHKPQJT3MRo1zxHAqUI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 09b365e4-b590-49b0-ede0-08d64a67c748 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 19:31:30.4175 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT081 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:31:36 -0000 Does this means that I should not expect more ideas, comments or discussion= s from these WGs regarding the next version of IPmix?! Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:53 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Bob Hinden ; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List ; softwires@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01. Khaled, The 6man working group chairs think a discussion of IPmix is out of scope f= or the ipv6@ietf.org list (and suspect the same for v6ops list as well). = We request that the you not send email on this topic to these lists and any= one responding remove these lists from the cc:. Thanks, Bob & Ole > On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Khaled Omar wr= ote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the IPmix = I-D. >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Khaled Omar >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:02:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1EF130EDF for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HEZB15-0iZo for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8374130EE0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id a202-v6so6597286oib.1 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=2hd/Fi2BArOPRBKQVPDwgVWQxIduu62R/aJFynkN0ZQ=; b=RDaCkWTyxmhwdiNrxSc+sN30cD2q6bSzoQNFZFQdN79zud2QIh+RIBMD+z0+Glp9Gc 7FNwrJ7jGjjtXRM+REH2H92kECbid5w/KhJwB6v5T48WBSVsys/+PmmGq+PIh68NM0yE RrAm5ZmdJNcvUL2yqOjfj00bW0CIfOsz6MEVK3bs8b3XD826t5UhJ4qtprpfWuQrG8qS dQVGIYfYLsPrwuk3M2xqWAk0OUOFsEw+cxEIv1amO9HtyX7HnU/h0Wq2exLkfYrvlv2C 77LBI64mV38QdHQEpaoSNC+V5/yzAcN6FhFO1uMalE3n1z4DW7fApIAhbPrPvOpACPUp MLug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=2hd/Fi2BArOPRBKQVPDwgVWQxIduu62R/aJFynkN0ZQ=; b=WxMOw7UfLycMJhtf8V1HTQbLe/5Lr28t9SmLpUzCWVcsyMdEAzU2JDEzlDZX5IoqXc lmwPThytwCSbQ+qvCCzLeIsYcddGOvzP3E/lst4XjvboAWz22WLevCS0rkjpatDcXOcC WoYjmgwUJTZGYDym70TLITvCqdACbJzwyZ5YMfdweDHgBygdXBmu8rV9wmhWdrVv3Ws6 XlU4aeyCAKEImVGB9zuPsWyDdXiHN91q3VhNrtxYr3VMZnPCgLKqso6rHy1ukbAMYPhK mDK6ffmVCF3mMTblLu/FyZMKqSTWmfclZMUUaKOwePiTTtMXi3WISrAfwt4IcOOvYG3j apLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gK+N/qZgGJlRo2GviqIFJs0VTHTbO50iE9t783X82udG6M+J65N +WTX4YaJFuKmWtkvHndS1Mw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eQ4GtXMJrH2gfb+Hg4L+Lhs/vObETqF9P2Hfnnhitf0RlgtJEKpL+GmDMSMN07ZTU2iaCG2Q== X-Received: by 2002:aca:c38f:: with SMTP id t137-v6mr2035231oif.220.1542225699137; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1035? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1035]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm8113184otb.38.2018.11.14.12.01.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <6F661FD2-84F0-4576-AE31-B3F9B74BEA78@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BA35BA0C-A618-4BD9-BEE0-59CB24671391"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:01:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= , v6ops list To: Mark Smith References: <4ede4d8a-c6cb-7a36-44ad-9d748740752e@hit.bme.hu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:02:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BA35BA0C-A618-4BD9-BEE0-59CB24671391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Nov 14, 2018, at 12:36 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 19:26 Lencse G=C3=A1bor > And what prevents Windows 10 from soliciting an RA, when information = is needed for generating a new temporary IPv6 address? >=20 > IPv6 not working that way ...? >=20 > RAs are sent periodically by the router automatically. They need to be = sent more often than the preferred and valid prefix lifetime values ... = otherwise addresses will expire. True. But G=C3=A1bor's point is valid; if the host wishes the router = would send it an RA, it can ask for one and get one unicast. The down = side of that is that if the router is sending them too infrequently, one = could imagine each of the hosts soliciting them, which means that = something that could be multicast is sent many times unicast. In any event, it sounds like there are issues both in the router and the = host in this case. The router needs to periodically send them, and do so = frequently enough that hosts don't expire their addresses, and if the = host has a specific use for temporary addresses (which are not required = in the architecture; there is no *architectural* reason it can't use its = permanent address), it should do what it needs to in order to maintain = one. >> G=C3=A1bor >=20 > 2018.11.14. 5:39 keltez=C3=A9ssel, Mark Smith =C3=ADrta: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso = > I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build = 17134.345) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 = temporary addresses count down to zero, the network interface starts = using the non-temporary address for communications. The valid lifetime = of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are still large, but = the preferred lifetime of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no = new temporary addresses are generated. >>=20 >> It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the = address lifetimes? >> Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": >>=20 >> Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address >> --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s = 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 >>=20 >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >>=20 >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s = fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3371 >>=20 >> Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone = from Microsoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say = that they were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was = implemented, but another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime = between build 16299 and 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still = people at Microsoft on this list, since this problem is currently = happening in the above version several times a day. The only way to get = the temporary addresses working again is to disable and enable the = interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with "netsh interface ipv6 = set privacy state=3Ddisabled", then enabling them again, does nothing.) >>=20 >>=20 >> That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes = to be refreshed. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Mark. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the = privacy issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a = workaround or updated fix in the works? >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> -Indy >>=20 >> fireballiso@yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >>=20 >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_BA35BA0C-A618-4BD9-BEE0-59CB24671391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvsfyAACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DA8g/9FiN6yhkLvTQ0MkfhiecV0vsHKK+vVfa/oEW8uhToZXxO0gOY4thPKmdI yqnVeGZK5lNduBsspD17Znjvq1t9oY/rMMoOSXf+KR3spYrE4NE2Mg7ky9aBkXuj QdWCQiHwb3QQ/c3f4T+SAC3wSMqNzRu4RSGmUj8qXN+lp5//PXZhq3CBc6HR2Fjv wn4bXW7DNykLJqmoMRiJiAHELD05S/kmJoCQDh2dEC5EPOp60Bd3zumTGRXARU/+ zy0Vc+zD/mjw3BKw6JmZWevlb9Rb6u5nHOJVmjJP2tfYrkLjGyu8uBSG/WxnRJl8 uIukc0hG1kEKGEtPk9wO8W6BD/ew6aDxIro9ap7s2ar7s2xBP0E0arKuierYTPS0 ZRpIADbzuOpdsRiNzz/7JKJ5UtOGDqn2uvjbjJEb1EBrGP6NjOaHx4BOukAjhDAq e+RvTbiTkl+8GVRLcODFgN3MhjKmPpR4Ev3TfXwN/M5Q8XotcXCVKzG5P0VqLPJf gnn/Use/5iFXmWcaMpO0RCjT9zoaN03CCWWWqJoSkB7ekMH1hr8rkwpqAmSRWJRE dsLMzmjXS+BIo3WHGn4ZZHWhgcFndm6u2hGeOLF4MD+zyerNzcWjuXd3v4Oe0DWU m6jKwW4Q5utk996BgQh3PILXCGpST4wJPYbkHr1UhNKkx2dQ23A= =nGOT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BA35BA0C-A618-4BD9-BEE0-59CB24671391-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:06:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E687130DC9 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO-ArBIjnelt for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC5D1277C8 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id 192-v6so14739361oii.6 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=+4N2hApUcCpadtikXaXVncc2nl3obeV1TYdlHDZPWEY=; b=FPzvTV7dP9XfO8BuLm6YbAIzBXVdMFS/S2gBZbigqyN6hSR8J9Q4GsWjGYgXpPNpNO lhQsf3g9iDuHN4GRZgDfjVpLcdzaZVd04QBwsarM7ECtvnHCikQvKLt/PuD0XQ/CrNjZ /5fqKSCQ3SeUnnHAoIzPMfoxAi0QoRny40Iih4cEPlH5TGdvbS7x8i8oaAfSkOoE71WH ErcrfNgX3jraq8ue9P54lX8V497epqaqhTHV1wUXSh4DD/iZ6kUGi6c87DekkBxYsUCm 68VUjua25Kt1KG4B+/BGGvJ1JwgU1tfldSQYJPnF+8E8X985rAQ0xxFajhk9rDc4QOsR B2vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=+4N2hApUcCpadtikXaXVncc2nl3obeV1TYdlHDZPWEY=; b=O6is0tcXT2eePWq204oVKnQ5iouPZ8QLUnqgKh8hS6KblMVZZqUTPkMP0E13/mS0lc pFCPPC48yValA0a2U8IGuAxSxD75D5VoHIQ9Ucp3KedX83w2Mq4gIzBTaAgt7p2OT1UY 4G47ZZ9Z3C+wJ2gby8gtplYLTsx6LdDs8Fb0y+fNaiUvbYdQhb2pPzoRqU4+BHNkVbd6 uRGa6JXH4SCyhxcGWW/wvRkNQCH88icalkCfmB9E81jAn4wGmaK6fPB8Joj9OrLTDfAn uik1kudc+WCJcIR5YnxUX3mVC2jSd7P5EY5Prm31XlBMNfBZPGiYOSLIFyDGiqW/j9Tn OKuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJDYuVdLwKIpWvycAdbRu1y17rfz43Pwss42NrjK02I4Jqf2ZLl Ni2qRa6B1UgB/xIakmHWLA4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fec6iKdJ+lfF8k6oe7iQJ692DmQQem7VOyWxrOq/LyXfb/hn2KiaIlsRlC12Jw2I9jwIs2UQ== X-Received: by 2002:aca:c443:: with SMTP id u64mr2046689oif.136.1542225999227; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1035? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1035]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k132-v6sm8547646oia.46.2018.11.14.12.06.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:38 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_704FB2A7-CBFD-427A-A3DF-D12A3AA1050C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:06:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Khaled Omar References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:06:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_704FB2A7-CBFD-427A-A3DF-D12A3AA1050C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Khaled: I realize that you are collecting comments on your concept, which is OK. = But I wonder if you would be so kind as to look at the v6ops charter = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/) and comment on its = relevance to those topics? The working group is primarily concerned with the operation of IPv6 = networks, and the interaction with IPv4 networks as long as those have = relevance. I'm not sure we're looking for ways to keep IPv4 on life = support. Fred --Apple-Mail=_704FB2A7-CBFD-427A-A3DF-D12A3AA1050C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvsgEwACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CVMQ//ZJwgSucqR0+QKa8E0nwuxhL5er2oejsEMpc7HhdyrsujWlkKgYhJ0xy7 nAXsMJPY6J3s2pMx8gWf1bLIbzaqpQhnkhLxcPP/k5YSmg0EHLRVbikNMh+B9HIu Huxb78MCAZA0zRG+Z0N4ExJgLJ4ZBSADojJzZPDIfpVE+CeP8mW5tOsyrTnnizRb oJmRGgRK1Gir7aygUW98o8IJQl5qtpN9eaV7dCA7yDq9WI0M0C+K0400A0si+UkT AQUC92+ILbdSMNz9+4BYGll2yJ4j4nEdVvzFFF+i/K4clCWlRA7oUnYPoLZKb1I/ YaNtIUES3iEz6OptQMZBbn6taW//3gpu4dVbSl/rhVFq/u4jUQaHaCJ064tez63U QHd2Uw80SXcPIk6Y9zunO7AN+21qhuqKStVKeo3rIQE1yQhsMqghTtepbpHtaMP3 D6JlqRwa8hw9vEz89W54lFFavAjSUzFSLpgWx8GIzVD1vJB1sfu6HoOYHdwE/k4H cRAP/y7Ij3BS9e9UG283iUoXJFqGT/hPNy79ua5WgKvYDLFZTV1dJuL84n2ofT9i QnFhObFTUeZAIqtNmkAPHpHD6iGz5Thj0U/9/j12+NpCaEoocSdbMkmdPJlJhtEY KIe7zT1WWwIONHytRwTDf1LbJ+ZpDROga4Hr/AhNmaU/DHpbdWk= =/CrI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_704FB2A7-CBFD-427A-A3DF-D12A3AA1050C-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:10:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB97130DBE; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qBIgZlFXt4bU; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42f.google.com (mail-pf1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FBD51277C8; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id v68-v6so8462719pfk.0; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=WPSQgeAxaOjpIgNLGotvVtozMYnZ5NciTsLrWtjxpY0=; b=Dud6Tiz0/EnxFZeEqs7TCo8nvAtSwNHRTNYq3wdkFi3ee+1JBW685/hIja3Bxuv2El kF876RJAmtXwYHCv1LAX3XQQJ2kFEw4eT6aV5zsDsqgc8tIlt+7xu9BNeyRhCnaDgJQj 5l+x54Oxmk3MiYdbveYBdJ3kZeeuxNH6qMjaVSmstvNRQDas5ZqwOqWFg4BedGM48+Tz slPVS1ZfWvDsUcvfWmNVmTRdaiCR0QJ1KxorrxHxzYSvjP7rMUxEBnHwhmKbukADZmHW nWMO/GDPi49S1tGNxc8qMYMZt9oqV/10FmkIhuav9wFRRRtnLNd7ay2gcnA19pHnfoku AATA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=WPSQgeAxaOjpIgNLGotvVtozMYnZ5NciTsLrWtjxpY0=; b=jvomlD7/XnLtWnRTPql4ZA+FIoP55KRdXevxJl3aGbuDeWH83m5bo3yU+pnr6aUW3j IgPokB9MHKySrrQqaoRl/wm/dVhb0wcqysk5vjDXXBHXcYyyRRAl7KHoNEdSOspuhptb Xm5bywEmSXnvDlmHsX9bRjGyxVD7CBLUHOrC/IHcAQps8cOMoqbkw4MT5mG2s+M6uOz3 mdzEyFJJycwuzQc8nW9CGpZ/em6jdCsDIfJ0zd6N3t8x3x6OEKyk38gq0/vg9RHTXsdf rbySrBkf4ddEhlyBIhOh55AxIJ1m/oH4fwA9dtjpKs9lZNDtIYoFCbNnZYRQRqnaNvI3 y+QQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKSlejFRR2ARnzRKD6k7dN9GlIcO7c5o1lh4ml6W4fdknczpV4W WRcdMRrMWiFOEWCoAJ9wh2A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dqx79z+bhziTiRKMTitJKV8lCYpZNoRS4rNtTs8oxGng5Ywjdoj+O+5DNbAtfy3AqatYQMaQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:66c6:: with SMTP id a189mr3060560pgc.167.1542226195601; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.224.219] ([209.97.127.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m20sm865003pgv.93.2018.11.14.12.09.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <3F5F1C51-793B-494C-AA58-BEB1EF5C6449@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_83B644A7-C3BF-46E8-9A85-C15E88EC3683"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:09:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List , "softwires@ietf.org" , Suresh Krishnan To: Khaled Omar References: <6E2F71D3-1067-49FB-B4F6-0FB0379605B0@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:09:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_83B644A7-C3BF-46E8-9A85-C15E88EC3683 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Khaled, > On Nov 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Khaled Omar = wrote: >=20 > Does this means that I should not expect more ideas, comments or = discussions from these WGs regarding the next version of IPmix?! If there is more discussion, it should be somewhere else. Not on the = IPv6 list. Bob >=20 > Khaled >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:53 PM > To: Khaled Omar > Cc: Bob Hinden ; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List = ; softwires@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan = > Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01. >=20 > Khaled, >=20 > The 6man working group chairs think a discussion of IPmix is out of = scope for the ipv6@ietf.org list (and suspect the same for v6ops list as = well). We request that the you not send email on this topic to these = lists and anyone responding remove these lists from the cc:. >=20 > Thanks, > Bob & Ole >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Khaled Omar = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the = IPmix I-D. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Khaled Omar >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 --Apple-Mail=_83B644A7-C3BF-46E8-9A85-C15E88EC3683 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlvsgQ8ACgkQrut0EXfn u6iASggAl3pEIxBiWqIjH1ZlFBm5b6+9yKB8RLSkTTNXXstBsrroz7LLEbluee2w sulsqMAZ1QMQarqGg1NNDbnMTZSGIb5KVsabvDV9H4QWGsinbIT9zVNPYGqHnwvd VjywGeoHmhRpbJ2zs//BD3hKUldZsvVbIiVx8nGqA0goCVBD42nJjjlTNr/cDe1t rbzKiwWeniH1vux679fYnrSQSuMMUMiCdO6plAjwuzooJF/rQxx1GIhyRaOyw8aS yQftq0UZO85K9oNM90oNg0E2JEjv91Qyo829/0NH9p8mPMb6ooXPCHuMrdRGB4fG a8wW+c8GMwqZH3BgUCTH5hk7fYothg== =hw/E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_83B644A7-C3BF-46E8-9A85-C15E88EC3683-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:17:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D144130DBE; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:17:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kx6f4i9wC-pr; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:17:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092066074.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.66.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045F91294D0; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:17:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=STRi9Iy7WMag/C6HLX3AB0hFwGKO/1sVHQ9iFhoWHLo=; b=hs0CGHyINACG6Stw4IT9hzdZWdcPIgrxl4YsksPsZJ4IcgFucn7JQq9Gho1LxY/BKRYYtetJiGiPIRv55iPf3vrKZD3TmdxywY8fgV/vDIaOOlsHly+FJymUE9DwfS4yIA593CgmmIqj7YYowqrONigl5eEL1ErZp2Yk7FPOyR3xA/NfC6R044sFZlyQOXxaA/y0Hc0qdGi4BHEVsAR3eIva5RDq7BPBXrkxiWjHIP9r7J0kBzxMPZpDsYXTdFmthPKB4qCNBUAMS9UbY+gboaXSXM2oWL8NDG0C0ptwKAICBe8m0+cOtsG1VOql4j4lhzgrN4yO64pFBRdC8YQ++w== Received: from DB5EUR01FT046.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.57) by DB5EUR01HT108.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:17:18 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.54) by DB5EUR01FT046.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.231) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:17:18 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:17:18 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Bob Hinden CC: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "IPv6 List" , "softwires@ietf.org" , "Suresh Krishnan" Thread-Topic: IPmix I-D version 01. Thread-Index: AdR7XlR6bx8kmBBsROK5EeYebaelZgA7N8WAAAE9ZuAAAXW3gAAAQpJf Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:17:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6E2F71D3-1067-49FB-B4F6-0FB0379605B0@gmail.com> , <3F5F1C51-793B-494C-AA58-BEB1EF5C6449@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3F5F1C51-793B-494C-AA58-BEB1EF5C6449@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:124F391D9AC3C3464F03D22CA6F12D5B8260931487D283B79F6F9C14249554E9; UpperCasedChecksum:61C5E46E6FC6C6169210438005E4CA60F86A7BAA7BBAA5EB00AD14C994590BAA; SizeAsReceived:7427; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Pmz5czR33VUhyOeUoegcQZFisjhqhRfr] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT108; 6:ngEhsTsgRsOgZrizW5IDhyO5hsH5/MPeAZGnzExnrRGpai3Id4Q4ql1r9PMittyTJk2zVuBfhE+jiVsGXmDm9FHxF4jSUp5Z/2Sci58VysQWDn6htsNimKG+vOBSfV+dIBqE419IMupJnj6VLe1B2KAeH9bzESFuivLYt8wPIyE8lm5uO9MIyMjIx156ZDzS/Jx7speYrqUe8POG9pkPuIzq16sDvgo5KDioDw2y5aPPVzb+8eqpre2kmFmVOD4gqBATwZzcX/Wf6X19YMYcTl03xw3AjhSEgCUT495iVPLGuF7V2xfblxy9phiUn7hcSi5bXhnWrZHvJbi6IPwhqaS7EfRCO28Vhqw8try7U3ZQgHEYcmYWXc4W834pTjBTU0JDb+XM0cW+GYgqGBVl5mu4O6Ysb5wd/tNXBcBOKuMkqoijEGCiqah0igRkh0JPEx9mkPDwrnAlLaZPi3GLXw==; 5:BjGCp5uijgiXHZ6GXyEg7P6bJfm8vSj9IK05168Lyi9iFkdZ/1yVf8EGUkyZ8mPFG0XOYCEvPWxZUmDFPYUTf0ty1mfIAGH2H+hvMxWkiaQ0tDmT2eNRtHzGI//BBq/AK9yjQNNOeWQy7Tun9P7YH3KXc2ng3goDYqFFVgCuTvE=; 7:lACSI+4CoTkcAWybayQEugs1Ag3zM4xEThXzw24kLUAak5rvRKnSLMXiJ+dgmDXGv0FW+47Sl2A5ICIAsApL8qa7uZkL2KPfXD5CPrPC7X3acDrbdx29S4lzdRsg9Afv/o0q0hrPOu1hKFWXDi/xbg== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR01HT108: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: IhZjPxRYlYQ7TrrkC7zckjamTHhjEfkJLZu/Gr08PgqSrpIONeeDG/Hio2Wql/Tc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29376E1E726A5DCDE5EA2693AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dab588ec-21a8-4d2d-b5ae-08d64a6e2d0c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 20:17:18.1679 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT108 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix I-D version 01. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:17:24 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29376E1E726A5DCDE5EA2693AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope there will be a discussion somewhere else. Khaled Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Bob Hinden Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:09:51 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Bob Hinden; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List; softwires@ietf.org; Suresh Krish= nan Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01. Khaled, > On Nov 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Khaled Omar w= rote: > > Does this means that I should not expect more ideas, comments or discussi= ons from these WGs regarding the next version of IPmix?! If there is more discussion, it should be somewhere else. Not on the IPv6 = list. Bob > > Khaled > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:53 PM > To: Khaled Omar > Cc: Bob Hinden ; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List ; softwires@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan > Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01. > > Khaled, > > The 6man working group chairs think a discussion of IPmix is out of scope= for the ipv6@ietf.org list (and suspect the same for v6ops list as well). = We request that the you not send email on this topic to these lists and a= nyone responding remove these lists from the cc:. > > Thanks, > Bob & Ole > > > >> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Khaled Omar w= rote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the IPmix= I-D. >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/ >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Khaled Omar >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --_000_HE1PR0402MB29376E1E726A5DCDE5EA2693AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hope there will be a discussion somewhere else.

Khaled

Best Regards
Khaled Omar

From: Bob Hinden <bob.= hinden@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:09:51 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Bob Hinden; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List; softwires@ietf.org; Sures= h Krishnan
Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01.
 
Khaled,

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.= com> wrote:
>
> Does this means that I should not expect more ideas, comments or discu= ssions from these WGs regarding the next version of IPmix?!

If there is more discussion, it should be somewhere else.  Not on the = IPv6 list.

Bob


>
> Khaled
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.h= inden@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:53 PM
> To: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List= <ipv6@ietf.org>; softwires@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.kris= hnan@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: IPmix I-D version 01.
>
> Khaled,
>
> The 6man working group chairs think a discussion of IPmix is out of sc= ope for the ipv6@ietf.org list (and suspect the same for v6ops list as well= ).   We request that the you not send email on this topic to thes= e lists and anyone responding remove these lists from the cc:.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob & Ole
>
>
>
>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlo= ok.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Your feedback will be appreciated for the submitted version of the= IPmix I-D.
>>
>>
>>
>> htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar-ipmix/
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Khaled Omar
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>

--_000_HE1PR0402MB29376E1E726A5DCDE5EA2693AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:35:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C2E12870E for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:35:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5BWD53RXJx8e for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01olkn081e.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe02::81e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A261277C8 for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fred, I think IPmix as a transitioning mechanism will kill the idea of having IPv= 4 only networks, it will take some time but eventually it will disappear, a= nd during that time there must be direct connectivity between IPv4 and IPv6= better than waiting for actions that will be taken by clients and they may= do or may not. Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Fred Baker Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:06:36 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter Khaled: I realize that you are collecting comments on your concept, which is OK. Bu= t I wonder if you would be so kind as to look at the v6ops charter (https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/) and comment on its relevance to t= hose topics? The working group is primarily concerned with the operation of IPv6 network= s, and the interaction with IPv4 networks as long as those have relevance. = I'm not sure we're looking for ways to keep IPv4 on life support. Fred --_000_HE1PR0402MB29370A892824851E7A2C81B7AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Fred,

I think IPmix as a transitioning mechanism will kill the idea of having IPv= 4 only networks, it will take some time but eventually it will disappear, a= nd during that time there must be direct connectivity between IPv4 and IPv6= better than waiting for actions that will be taken by clients and they may do or may not.

Best Regards
Khaled Omar

From: Fred Baker <fred= baker.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:06:36 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter
 
Khaled:

I realize that you are collecting comments on your concept, which is OK. Bu= t I wonder if you would be so kind as to look at the v6ops charter (https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/group/v6ops/about/) and comment on its relevance to those topics?

The working group is primarily concerned with the operation of IPv6 network= s, and the interaction with IPv4 networks as long as those have relevance. = I'm not sure we're looking for ways to keep IPv4 on life support.

Fred
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29370A892824851E7A2C81B7AEC30HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 13:02:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7FF130EDC for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rdTBVOBGk3ef for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBD82126CB6 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id u16so15769861otk.8 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=HDTptHOGYJVbpye/3l1eY0jll+SOnjh+b9ObQnOmheE=; b=Qp/gnixzEfY/M1klP/ZnPPk6K9egVbch6jlZPh+O+DNG0un+DCd+pVxJWSr+3rNi2O s9xElwAXxBHnfBDI3hwtORjLDbc6H0rzs530ELofl5BleEaKhvUWtaGat5H/umCcAxiW UBhhZf8bhbtsgdBQrcvMELI5q0TzRHUgifzZe8QjSe+Tso2qGQ3gUi6yiL6eXHyRundK yVXX9Y5hUstlOdP31hEjLgt2LXqnpYSMk5vpz+KlRg1IWENxVuBCa9DFAo10+GVwcBKK UU/QB9SrcGs/CondblZQ3XvBPkAcyPPo80y9368Os/OsWOm1wx4XfSf0OYcYRo9KeWK/ 10SA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=HDTptHOGYJVbpye/3l1eY0jll+SOnjh+b9ObQnOmheE=; b=tx8/i5yUhzV8aUDOdisEbR/+i9rsR8Jp0jDX1gRGpsezOEl/XUfLQ41Up3pckuBs95 UcNBSIRrBqqtlYsNmevY5wEGaI38rcnl4RwBk2d5VEC2y6Qt/Ca6Rjvo7lYOlljKSbNM rUi4DBHVbEqUTYVhGV+LjCGVNYlArWd1uvId0WBQaYvMKyMoxjlNnGmCfr50MxwnLdDV eKUqSpx6usZ+X8n1IEJTcR5DuWp9yZ7hfeWyp9IYG0h46yxTH9eD3Vj28OM2uNVERlqG etUen3cU16sF6Jl/jq4zngVn/ZhqJ84kQroPJKhX0LLyrPzHQzXYLTyiMSjFGISqMo0t CfFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJEWWeKotG8Jkbjj9m75uJkoNzLUVInYLniA441zupfNTlU+WfF c1VSAnaqE/nYpQMoYAZJXAw+lxOf X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dN36OMzteUQcQEvKDlIuSsjq3KlJPO+zivZkJlRNsP+3P/eg955wgIAGGOtYUSSp1DletZCg== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:74c3:: with SMTP id a3mr2187686otl.107.1542229356863; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1035? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1035]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m6-v6sm4987313oia.51.2018.11.14.13.02.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:35 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B73C860-F056-4986-BD5B-862CCFA39E86"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:02:33 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Khaled Omar References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:02:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B73C860-F056-4986-BD5B-862CCFA39E86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 14, 2018, at 12:35 PM, Khaled Omar = wrote: > I think IPmix as a transitioning mechanism will kill the idea of = having IPv4 only networks, it will take some time but eventually it will = disappear, and during that time there must be direct connectivity = between IPv4 and IPv6 better than waiting for actions that will be taken = by clients and they may do or may not. Fair enough. But creating new transition mechanisms, and new protocols, = is not in our charter. What we are working on right now is IPv6 = deployment and operation; we have a number of potential alleys we can = run down, but if the objective is to deploy and use a given technology, = using a different technology mostly consumes spare time and resources, = with the effect of delaying the objective. My comment on IPmix is that, if it is to be useful, it has to be = implemented somewhere. That "somewhere" can be in the host, where it = acts somewhat like a tunnel, or in a network appliance of some sort. If = it's not in the host, we also need a mechanism to get the metadata about = the packet from its originating host to the appliance - if one host has = only an IPv4 address and another only an IPv6 address, the originating = IPv6 packet needs to get to the appliance with a name, which will result = in the appliance looking up the address and applying it, and the = receiving appliance needs to somehow supply an IPv4 address for the IPv4 = source, to which the destination can reply. We're essentially creating a = new protocol and paradigm. I don't mind you asking for comment, but please don't expect v6ops to do = much beyond comment. We're not in the business of developing = yet-another-transition-mechanism, or yet-another-protocol. = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_7B73C860-F056-4986-BD5B-862CCFA39E86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvsjWkACgkQEhdRnd2G P+At5xAAgKi2+CUqR+h1h96LDx4pwYCGijP20kIwV8kqysH6OYNIMVKNJknQyWqb sNqjk7Ai+6t8O4fUTBx99pp1JPd+8X8A5KZflbxCR0LkzaGWI6dlbX48q1LyZXYD HthFN1t6aNVRmce3PiWTyFRGxb//RXZa5mJYL64VbKELDQ5Fbo1eSg7WfHWka+Sa NjNuFl8MjKyUQgr6gnBRHPYowgvnuf1gvcqNN+AXYdjRlYDa0nBQZp3iIA4f51iV nwLGeZHPpsJUbgMGq4VA2gGzDz3F9kve3vBMFEJS9C+4z3ZPSKsVF5FGplsa7RFF OTpkTRWuqa4h5X/WdBBC5OYI/XPrX/+2MWCo0zXex9juJIEsY3ttH4pXIgp8XwVK NtyoCa4VOV7ObUOsPt4J3voJQTJAMnJbeK2wORMtlHFfFTtXRQeo4IRmyNfy6cME HWL6lO9ilQSSIPUDnsahl3TD7k4bGWactj+sRBDqTBC1HmdGNbFlPdaDqMsl4/pg DAyv4QdFi3M7Ktc4qDc8mqeEVWRcI8Xx1zzmiv0frYHqx95R2bnV5mAuZENAKqcM li6E9GonfouKA8kvIcG7+5OC/u0gfEC+GMJp7Fc6+g+ATCVh+sQOXyS412JFwsUk ngddigbM5JjOLt+jUOOqCmBcwqG0w2dXTWG9sYzzedz8elcxZK0= =ko1T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7B73C860-F056-4986-BD5B-862CCFA39E86-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 13:30:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C86D130DCE for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:30:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBvGrj7LJW-w for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB67126CB6 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id a132so28557064qkg.1 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y7Gd3r9wIxokYXuZkROqmXYYapYQs/CK7YpyoMkxCvg=; b=Q/Cmk/WUEQ/TMUcog2n39zNp3mLz3ma1tBhqnd4pIhuKqCDjyWidpLX3ZzvGqXqbFB TkOHLtWOwlLYvWrrrljvdKhSdzkcpIO8UUKR8ZVUU66WUK0AQ3WslHL5dZYclwKszJkY hDeL0V46nWTZSNAMF2laRBgx+33VIdHA/ElsHCWx9OfNWFuYgglt7oeLTka3ZoBhCGuT h0jr/4XNCRjxrIfyQ1EApWRJWV2OScaIBUG1ly/JRVPMPyCzBTDdVK1Bca94gsz1rQjj eCZYZ1MEAHgh2pWyyWQnSJCJPTpMmnCFOdvFmQx3iaI//r1+ayVvDcQTWgpV1WIES1La IrOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y7Gd3r9wIxokYXuZkROqmXYYapYQs/CK7YpyoMkxCvg=; b=FiZ5qY+VlJ2fQTRkRUZkggAmr0TrcKSoSz8MWYLEcwyYBAEIG/aNUukQhuW2xNusPf 5dc8n7VbeIP8sylJwk5iCLhy5ISbbzN0pcZDfZraxuas/as1ZpblMhz13qULTlIUFqr1 rsx7N0Ht0SUjdt+fEujCyfofjtxLrKigUI2War4QYTX+ZdciH53R2LPuI3FXbD1GP8ph nKoXbz/dSpDyW/rT20BbGiBBTNCm4oNXYOh2g+EngcGv7SEdGfHRrOFaCaW24EPNldx0 fXvgui+Xy1VxJPDH57LF8TLIj488qJU6uXhtp45eJ9xTSkH7TV1QTqOJZnoCkx/Rftvr yT2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIN47essveLdEso1drEA6wPJe8RTcMP5z5WLax1y6KTaCNMtdmv 4qCESDe3sDy1HURn0GHfq30bVBcDXsR1yRwM2F5D5YHV X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eVFr0ziwvZwGKwKIDAcpPZ4OSogEhNgv7zxq6angmM6/wUDJA6z1ajrBt75oNbmIJ32rLzFWF7zkHWybgtRqM= X-Received: by 2002:a37:b9c6:: with SMTP id j189-v6mr3429389qkf.203.1542231004713; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:29:51 +1100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: fireballiso=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org, V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:30:08 -0000 On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 3:40 PM Mark Smith wrote: > On Wed., 14 Nov. 2018, 12:57 fireballiso > I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345)= for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses = count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary ad= dress for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-= temporary addresses are still large, but the preferred lifetime of the tem= porary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated= . > > > It's not because RAs aren't being sent often enough to refresh the addres= s lifetimes? I'm not sure it's the case. Looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941#section-3.4 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941#section-3.3 I got an impression that the host SHOULD start generating new temp. address 5 seconds before the old address expires. The preferred lifetime for the new address is the lower of the Preferred Lifetime of the public address (4 hrs based on the output provided in the original email) or TEMP_PREFERRED_LIFETIME - DESYNC_FACTOR. Based on the output TEMP_PREFERRED_LIFETIME seems to be 20hrs (as the address got deprecated 4 hrs before the stable one), and the upper bound on DESYNC_FACTOR is 10 mins. So theoretically the host should be generating a new address with preferred lifetime of 4 hrs. But I agree, it's a bit weird that the system has not received any RAs for 20hrs... >> >> Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": >> >> Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address >> --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a= :3371 >> >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:3= 371 >> >> Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 >> >> >> I found a similar issue in the archives of this list, and someone from M= icrosoft replied back on Thu, 14 September 2017 05:57 UTC to say that they = were working on a fix for it. I don't know if the fix was implemented, but = another similar issue was reported as fixed "sometime between build 16299 a= nd 17127"; however, I'm hoping there are still people at Microsoft on this = list, since this problem is currently happening in the above version severa= l times a day. The only way to get the temporary addresses working again is= to disable and enable the interface. (Disabling the privacy addresses with= "netsh interface ipv6 set privacy state=3Ddisabled", then enabling them ag= ain, does nothing.) > > > That would solicit an RA, and that RA would cause address lifetimes to be= refreshed. > > Regards, > Mark. > > >> Unfortunately, this is impeding IPv6 use on Windows, due to the privacy = issue. Any ideas what might cause this, and whether there is a workaround o= r updated fix in the works? >> >> -- >> >> -Indy >> fireballiso@yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 14 13:33:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371A0130EBE for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67o_gfv2gqzf for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29A93126CB6 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id d135so28534459qkc.12 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:33:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=99OkuD9r6hHxuRT92bCVWKtdwrC9VIihUO/xTnjo4VU=; b=ZJYij/SYoi6ADXUpwHnifdRlwRe2WapvhRJiKy9HgoO3oX0Xkqodfk4D05MgjL3FD8 +mdTvZqLPpuD1Bbao5CGPx3hIrCdaToFPkFuuQa77PocgQFqljcwRWFUU0S597S1SSD9 STyn59r7xQgzBO//lLfFhodSxneeCfo1WhtQFlxqdiIItkUDNH/UCOpQuJvFvgK1tfPA 6NeukaBQcgh83aDLB8ukA8ICmOzJqPiwYGXa7qeOIPLHg0YIK8GxKRfuzL8NihPNgsOl e18WxKBOe0fcc4pb3BhIA2LcPPWOyMRtwPf69uXU3Erf1iyEfa1kuJmYrHGl8RVgF7Hx P2Zg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=99OkuD9r6hHxuRT92bCVWKtdwrC9VIihUO/xTnjo4VU=; b=kXCMSQDmYXJVD2gMuF+2pItpSjx2PqK24CSSOhQ6zfosTORcvj4PrXqUi8mWRt/8OP pdsmPsZnE76zoQNE1sX8AQ7l2d9Y/SszTiEpA+yeX7SjvvWypGa+SFt+9/1YjkW3Wjf6 O5Tld2AAiGaioW6gXG9m8VZ/1KQQ6Px+3DQw5XNKiENPA4uSY+54VMSu9nCih/AimCb3 i2+RBPPELJkKBfXtluKyFalzh6V4CnJ7GArdZgU3iBhjp4X9IdV47J5TMnAQdPUglIsw zUUyJRklJjSlQzGFQdq96CeD12xf7HrXtMqbet/YASdwzHXZqWoH/0ZFH+cnZCqq4AHA aUTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLmv4FUzkWlMJHQOKKdphptPlrdihFEvF1eKcCbPZUwoETN0pjA RwI+msF4XBHaRbYWXoq3xi9XfPHfSzpkjdq9DsuuXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fwKhWLkQMD3caX/KGLW8aynvcwJwNXxAJJDB8w1X1m3ZLg+A3vKItV+C5owGkG0SCteim0u1QLHCV3isURa9Q= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f80f:: with SMTP id x15mr3240967qkh.341.1542231180874; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:33:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:32:48 +1100 Message-ID: To: fireballiso=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:33:04 -0000 On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 12:57 PM fireballiso wrote: > > I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.345) = for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addresses c= ount down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-temporary add= ress for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary and non-t= emporary addresses are still large, but the preferred lifetime of the temp= orary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses are generated. > > Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": > > Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address > --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ > Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:= 3371 > > Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 > > Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a:33= 71 > > Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 This output indicates that your system has not received an RA with a PIO with non-zero preferred life for 20hrs. In theory the system still should be able to generate an new privacy address. In real life it looks like very weird network setup. How often does your router send unsolicited RAs? --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 14 13:35:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88030128B14 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkaKfpyIuMX0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092070078.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.70.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6DEA130DE3 for ; 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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:34:56 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:34:56 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Fred Baker CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter Thread-Index: AQHUfFWOeCMFu9SuJkeF/wqPFpb2f6VPumOSgAAHq4CAAAWEMA== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:34:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:BE7056CF4BD1FF1F3BCBBE0C569D98B5EE5A4F79944A0451AB972835AC8C67A4; UpperCasedChecksum:5C72039718C2303912BC221DF52185B48C42ACD555355D33F8D60C38855D387B; 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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT145; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR03HT145: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT145; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR03HT145; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: /BzxpY59Qf8Ngv0dJ1c5RFqpUmz8px3+/BMGmeifb3afH5u1fezQBEuDi8HCaggh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 60e8dcdf-9ea1-45f4-057e-08d64a7905d2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 21:34:56.7741 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT145 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:35:02 -0000 Fred, > My comment on IPmix is that, if it is to be useful, it has to be implemen= ted somewhere. That "somewhere" can be in the host. I agree, but no need to add more complexity, we can find a solution that is= easier to be implemented in the host. > I don't mind you asking for comment, but please don't expect v6ops to do = much beyond comment. We're not in the business of developing yet-another-tr= ansition-mechanism, or yet-another-protocol. "The global deployment of IPv6 is underway, creating an Internet consisting= of IPv4-only, IPv6-only, IPv4-IPv6 dual-stack, and IPv6+translation networ= ks and nodes. This deployment must be properly handled to avoid the divisio= n of the Internet into separate IPv4 and IPv6 networks, ensuring addressing and connectivity for all IPv4 and IPv6 n= odes." This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host to = achieve the last part.=20 Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:03 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Nov 14, 2018, at 12:35 PM, Khaled Omar wro= te: > I think IPmix as a transitioning mechanism will kill the idea of having I= Pv4 only networks, it will take some time but eventually it will disappear,= and during that time there must be direct connectivity between IPv4 and IP= v6 better than waiting for actions that will be taken by clients and they m= ay do or may not. Fair enough. But creating new transition mechanisms, and new protocols, is = not in our charter. What we are working on right now is IPv6 deployment and= operation; we have a number of potential alleys we can run down, but if th= e objective is to deploy and use a given technology, using a different tech= nology mostly consumes spare time and resources, with the effect of delayin= g the objective. My comment on IPmix is that, if it is to be useful, it has to be implemente= d somewhere. That "somewhere" can be in the host, where it acts somewhat li= ke a tunnel, or in a network appliance of some sort. If it's not in the hos= t, we also need a mechanism to get the metadata about the packet from its o= riginating host to the appliance - if one host has only an IPv4 address and= another only an IPv6 address, the originating IPv6 packet needs to get to = the appliance with a name, which will result in the appliance looking up th= e address and applying it, and the receiving appliance needs to somehow sup= ply an IPv4 address for the IPv4 source, to which the destination can reply= . We're essentially creating a new protocol and paradigm. I don't mind you asking for comment, but please don't expect v6ops to do mu= ch beyond comment. We're not in the business of developing yet-another-tran= sition-mechanism, or yet-another-protocol. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to w= ar first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu From nobody Wed Nov 14 17:01:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96229130E10 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aL3GHVq6K_Tu for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sonic313-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic313-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.65.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28AE612D4E9 for ; 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Thu, 15 Nov 2018 01:01:26 +0000 Received: from pool-108-31-56-250.washdc.fios.verizon.net (EHLO [192.168.0.35]) ([108.31.56.250]) by smtp401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1fd30e497b0370171521277eb3b623b2; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 01:01:24 +0000 (UTC) To: Jen Linkova Cc: V6 Ops List References: From: fireballiso Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fireballiso@yahoo.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBE/ifyYBCADDNybm708PQsHDjw3aPvK5E1Kz23ZBEJ1gj64q6isucCSnwah5qrSqsqD2 Y7ghaWhS7u+PtBmliVYhOsOXVXITXUhmyQ44Y8xNwOXL+hW2V/E9aBEcIR2s5MWot/VBrd5H WMM2aakEbHNT4gdawPa6obF0Vpb2vEXWMi3hsk9hoIK940mAfN3avrzF95+u/MDZq6CdTcy5 jrhrqS+LBUxz/h0+R5q/iNdt13TVSAUG9y+OcrIIy1W08tz5kZdIUsPHPb6+IKMmWaXJo6MZ d+4+2QpPuHpqWhtur3LvKXqQ/R3VzgzGcWNYrbY94w5xFMHuP5edqvNLHuCwg5H6gw+FABEB AAHNKEtlbm5ldGggVi4gV2Vsa2VyIDxrZW52d2Vsa2VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwHgEEwECACIF Ak/ifyYCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEL1SSQzR5vuMlXgH+gJYWivZ evNZ4hgjeI59sGp4XhgEtWXQhpKNSWnpv0ega3pbepl/3Uz2q7WOTmbq/7+PY+3JNP/rihJL 7UxHpzSDIZn7sXuqxKkDBS/mxW2bb5DJXCodAQRBEJv7N2b/xljrfmRLALZu+EBjfw5lnsp9 c8XixMWAUZZDqLV2DyhbxyPW1gdIxOl9lD3BeY8bJ+c3FV/D7bxIzDztF6ZTrSRAsmmtuviX NIjpjwAnFdWqoFxzneKLceafRX9osdYDv8G20gP5q62ZlZcUnvd32YLGNqzLmMtCCGA3Tp1k LZeCSDSEyzCG3/kSOICBxXZ7zJux/CZ2uPfGOXB/PBDNC2XOwE0ET+J/JgEIAM/IdRuYrslv CUASHvXdNPSiIHs1MsYu2ru4gUgcFEPyPuklxGlWRMh7CTk6uT5DznA+lbi3n/vHg7nrZnYM 37Jlb+zpWPfNZUWMD/exwWF4E4YpIQ1XWhEg5HS4uwFUDAkgcpcmzcIriVtId/iiWU3QXP0k JZTQhcVo+rLrprpcT4IyOqYYrJx28KMe9c8jR2vNYlNF4P/6/jdySWyGVFwommajHyfNc+yn Kv4BQBjUJWevwBxYjSTA+X4rdOL0q2H7KYFq11IvWPPdix8m2K415RaxCWfWE2jMCA/9kMZf GRQ1oI/qPndTPYGJHGpJn46xXI/VIlul9FlM9LOPCacAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCT+J/JgIb DAAKCRC9UkkM0eb7jNJbCACmMIuxqT+1Bb6dws5y5G9FW9rKmzsKJqI8YjRf4ytTLKObHpB4 UEzJ+OmCTmJKPF421ust+MY/TmvasOXUA3JygvJQ60EFYxHemb93ZNlIP+VdNe1dPyiIWM0o H+/VnD9FI9wsUiZI/YAymFkFaOqSSRHxfIRneSt9k288zMFFGZr++YwMrHcM4VMMYK/n/DiQ n6SAq19Ug9fIhAOt1wyJZsYbMMTZA5lekqgRwwt+mHh7+4J8wBIcu48s98F1Zq3uU6EEiF0X NwEN99ebAPb+8qiYsb7wERaJ2DB0Xi4E5vFjhWjwrTML8H23E7z4ylVCmykNDu8jJSETrwi2 pjxm Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:01:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 01:01:29 -0000 On 11/14/2018 4:32 PM, Jen Linkova wrote: > On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 12:57 PM fireballiso > wrote: >> I've seen strange behavior on Windows 10 (version 1803, build 17134.34= 5) for a while now: after the preferred lifetime of IPv6 temporary addres= ses count down to zero, the network interface starts using the non-tempor= ary address for communications. The valid lifetime of both the temporary = and non-temporary addresses are still large, but the preferred lifetime = of the temporary addresses is not reset, and no new temporary addresses a= re generated. >> >> Showing output of "netsh int ipv6 show addr": >> >> Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address >> --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s 2001:470:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c2= 3a:3371 >> >> Public Preferred 23h58m44s 3h58m44s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 >> >> Temporary Deprecated 23h58m44s 0s fd00:X:X:X:fdca:b4d8:c23a= :3371 >> >> Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 > This output indicates that your system has not received an RA with a > PIO with non-zero preferred life for 20hrs. > In theory the system still should be able to generate an new privacy > address. In real life it looks like very weird network setup. > How often does your router send unsolicited RAs? > RAs are sent every 60-120 seconds, which is much less than the preferred and valid lifetimes. I verified the RAs are reaching hosts, and prefix information options for the two prefixes are included, so I don't believe it's an RA problem. Sorry, I'm not following how you determined that the system hadn't received an RA with the prefix information for 20 hours. The preferred lifetime counter starts counting down from 4 hours, and is reset to 4 hours with every RA received; when it's working correctly, the preferred lifetimes of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are the same values. However, something cause the preferred lifetime values for the temporary addresses to stop getting reset to 4 hours. Since the Linux hosts/servers don't have a problem, I'm still thinking the issue is in Windows. --=20 -Indy fireballiso@yahoo.com From nobody Wed Nov 14 17:31:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41652130E4B for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7B-P2u_9MeE4 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42390130E13 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id 131so29418455qkd.4 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qCLAHscMGeCasza7h5ikfSTP5KFcLiD5TiCL27c7+sU=; b=sB8oIZhiTrSmYR2vDZZ2cpuO8toz/9f519uFKliwhrXEpsj86aFn+C6WjlFbHfsm1i D4go27IfaqJow1jz583jwKafJhBGPrdxq56PhV9yhrqVP7XtYkouLi6/liIcdqUPeiQe UBAEJJrwGlI4H9DFut62S0AYmGfH+INWiE97/KEnZoBNXBKmGdPK7fOo48PtFVBo8a67 5SImY83sOQiEFEy5Xub47AU6rgInl+fkycVxN015Sn5zjmUUTk/6zKf6S2EVM0rGQI+u 7eXKWifOd7S8jY0CkMav2ygrwT7f2HZT1XP9yloQrISYwu4iBlpZAJkIb8xfWmo9r+xG iP8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qCLAHscMGeCasza7h5ikfSTP5KFcLiD5TiCL27c7+sU=; b=ZuXEf5qtuBXK2WiqP2ClX2cnrlqRefXbWsSH+NzKwElWkEDcyzUKmYLSg6Ma9SOrBu p9sShJnofqVOl6cHnK5TUVrnTlPmDfBLCIsRK1eC18KuGqtrPq7gOLXM2P7cf38WhOIv iRQS63Trmr4/4QfnXslKjOvQQ8kIb+WxFF10OTvjLTTzPu4q7pOC0gKx7kPcO07g9bfC uH40jwOqkCJZa6nprRee3tBfzTfEOvzaD61dAHFO4qLq3WZ4OH5ObKvYeI5OfKRNHEY6 PGkc/hRAWJtpxC85Ce4sUlBnusf1YcVa0PGHH70MEzmFVS7wx0kvEEeIRWYKY9ZdgGSj T85w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIiOS7hfdV9Q4O2xrfn4D+nD1sjDENe/zmWW48UQfH7j5HL1P+K MU5E/HlVEkWflKXoF7GG8L8DQn/ANiegreisVtE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5d/nuU+gaCq4dcgm9V19qBwGjTb4HcSKP3YJOlwWssbGUNFJcMlzDxEF2FWRjNWEPEI25Pz8XBgzFbpX4Ong/E= X-Received: by 2002:a37:c84f:: with SMTP id c76mr3971260qkj.165.1542245503223; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:31:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:31:30 +1100 Message-ID: To: fireballiso@yahoo.com Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 01:31:45 -0000 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:01 PM fireballiso wrote: > Sorry, I'm not following how you determined that the system hadn't > received an RA with the prefix information for 20 hours. The preferred > lifetime counter starts counting down from 4 hours, and is reset to 4 > hours with every RA received; when it's working correctly, Yeah, you are right. Sorry, should not be sending any emails before the first coffee of the day ;) I misread the output. >the preferred > lifetimes of both the temporary and non-temporary addresses are the same > values. >However, something cause the preferred lifetime values for the > temporary addresses to stop getting reset to 4 hours. It looks like two issues to me: - RAs do not extend the lifetime of the temp. address - the new temp.address is not getting created in advance (RFC4941 says MUST). -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 14 17:39:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB12130E13 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RtWfwOMEpClj for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 063C9130E10 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id e22-v6so8827379pfn.8 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E7VQ4ouScd4yg3l2P3a7J6oFyOMUOeL+DyO4hrIOZvU=; b=XZKhy7Y3SmuId5TybqD0v13RBC23TFTpM2JvMGwvkbbftoiMHQY5TVLvK3iUeyNfUH YVGxzYl4xfs5AB0ULNAtzzRLMnS56mueYy57GVcPa8ZMiBEAYtndI2ShSHFg0VClDUZK mKP+R/+MN8vNHdPUhof6ot9m7QAfbLpjiazP5nZosxWKU5cxuop4LZfpOk5oG4nFIR6+ z5hwaX6uIOoJPN4GsZqh0vCkZPr79ydjGd5VIFi+0HFyMad3nfWFsjfFhBYomdJd/kph b5dR2UyTrvRQs/B2LlrHFdBMVTv5NnQAY00kg8oGzCXtJmZKY3WPXzTNH0jACAK12SuZ PZsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=E7VQ4ouScd4yg3l2P3a7J6oFyOMUOeL+DyO4hrIOZvU=; b=frDLgRzrDDdKnYArKaJK+Grv2BTOPV8noHGbUASUEw1EpxlUu3czSmtMsZSkUB3jtO lFwotmRRN90RVwFN6gegsr5tVt64n2BQfqF4p4/k53HxGTcOxwAtgwpGnk6IMMQ2OQ9L 3wZ1TV6TWbUSy3jEF9LgtfEe7nCC7Y+z+QTp1T29MzLBE10of0vmeVjeG1aaObrpxRey bDxX//Y2BxhvFAKd4/sC5uuAs4ysvW4VcffnXSdr3JPzaC1ykEQRTVZCLA88yZTPmjF+ 6N1UJlvFSYocpXl2mRFJWIuCuxypVfNvHkXomuIK54HFUZaikwWO/CCwe6SHa4XwOrV+ CFZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLcDjKBs+cCswh1iO/u66I+8vguHan0sePtkvywo4q/loguy4er xh1PnGxpXczzQ/5U6bChZekKnzJ0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dREVZeaAdoeWhbkYtNRlBlLXs5CKOPtaOFeOUXl8NqDIcgUY9YrgFLfHk/0NKVjcvHeqUhnA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:b218:: with SMTP id x24mr3852158pge.223.1542245982324; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b185sm27943612pga.85.2018.11.14.17.39.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:39:41 -0800 (PST) To: fireballiso , Jen Linkova Cc: V6 Ops List References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:39:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 01:39:45 -0000 On 2018-11-15 14:01, fireballiso wrote: ... > Since the Linux hosts/servers don't have a problem, I'm still thinking > the issue is in Windows. If so, it's not generic. Most people don't have this problem. Really. I see this sort of thing: Addr Type DAD State Valid Life Pref. Life Address --------- ----------- ---------- ---------- ------------------------ Public Preferred 1h59m28s 59m28s 2406:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:c105:5ed7:59e6:xxxx Temporary Preferred 1h59m28s 59m28s 2406:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:e5ad:37bb:c4ff:xxxx Other Preferred infinite infinite fe80::c105:5ed7:59e6:xxxx%21 Brian From nobody Wed Nov 14 19:39:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFA71277D2 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixMf6cxwQBD8 for ; 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Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:39:31 +0000 Received: from pool-108-31-56-250.washdc.fios.verizon.net (EHLO [192.168.0.35]) ([108.31.56.250]) by smtp402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID dc02d20bc568e634d41da4c00a24c0a0; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:39:29 +0000 (UTC) To: Jen Linkova Cc: V6 Ops List References: From: fireballiso Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fireballiso@yahoo.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBE/ifyYBCADDNybm708PQsHDjw3aPvK5E1Kz23ZBEJ1gj64q6isucCSnwah5qrSqsqD2 Y7ghaWhS7u+PtBmliVYhOsOXVXITXUhmyQ44Y8xNwOXL+hW2V/E9aBEcIR2s5MWot/VBrd5H WMM2aakEbHNT4gdawPa6obF0Vpb2vEXWMi3hsk9hoIK940mAfN3avrzF95+u/MDZq6CdTcy5 jrhrqS+LBUxz/h0+R5q/iNdt13TVSAUG9y+OcrIIy1W08tz5kZdIUsPHPb6+IKMmWaXJo6MZ d+4+2QpPuHpqWhtur3LvKXqQ/R3VzgzGcWNYrbY94w5xFMHuP5edqvNLHuCwg5H6gw+FABEB AAHNKEtlbm5ldGggVi4gV2Vsa2VyIDxrZW52d2Vsa2VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwHgEEwECACIF Ak/ifyYCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEL1SSQzR5vuMlXgH+gJYWivZ evNZ4hgjeI59sGp4XhgEtWXQhpKNSWnpv0ega3pbepl/3Uz2q7WOTmbq/7+PY+3JNP/rihJL 7UxHpzSDIZn7sXuqxKkDBS/mxW2bb5DJXCodAQRBEJv7N2b/xljrfmRLALZu+EBjfw5lnsp9 c8XixMWAUZZDqLV2DyhbxyPW1gdIxOl9lD3BeY8bJ+c3FV/D7bxIzDztF6ZTrSRAsmmtuviX NIjpjwAnFdWqoFxzneKLceafRX9osdYDv8G20gP5q62ZlZcUnvd32YLGNqzLmMtCCGA3Tp1k LZeCSDSEyzCG3/kSOICBxXZ7zJux/CZ2uPfGOXB/PBDNC2XOwE0ET+J/JgEIAM/IdRuYrslv CUASHvXdNPSiIHs1MsYu2ru4gUgcFEPyPuklxGlWRMh7CTk6uT5DznA+lbi3n/vHg7nrZnYM 37Jlb+zpWPfNZUWMD/exwWF4E4YpIQ1XWhEg5HS4uwFUDAkgcpcmzcIriVtId/iiWU3QXP0k JZTQhcVo+rLrprpcT4IyOqYYrJx28KMe9c8jR2vNYlNF4P/6/jdySWyGVFwommajHyfNc+yn Kv4BQBjUJWevwBxYjSTA+X4rdOL0q2H7KYFq11IvWPPdix8m2K415RaxCWfWE2jMCA/9kMZf GRQ1oI/qPndTPYGJHGpJn46xXI/VIlul9FlM9LOPCacAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCT+J/JgIb DAAKCRC9UkkM0eb7jNJbCACmMIuxqT+1Bb6dws5y5G9FW9rKmzsKJqI8YjRf4ytTLKObHpB4 UEzJ+OmCTmJKPF421ust+MY/TmvasOXUA3JygvJQ60EFYxHemb93ZNlIP+VdNe1dPyiIWM0o H+/VnD9FI9wsUiZI/YAymFkFaOqSSRHxfIRneSt9k288zMFFGZr++YwMrHcM4VMMYK/n/DiQ n6SAq19Ug9fIhAOt1wyJZsYbMMTZA5lekqgRwwt+mHh7+4J8wBIcu48s98F1Zq3uU6EEiF0X NwEN99ebAPb+8qiYsb7wERaJ2DB0Xi4E5vFjhWjwrTML8H23E7z4ylVCmykNDu8jJSETrwi2 pjxm Message-ID: <29882837-aa2c-fac5-5b5b-543516fe35bb@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:39:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Temporary IPv6 addresses expiring and not renewed - Windows 10 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:39:34 -0000 On 11/14/2018 8:31 PM, Jen Linkova wrote: > It looks like two issues to me: > - RAs do not extend the lifetime of the temp. address > - the new temp.address is not getting created in advance (RFC4941 says = MUST). > Seems right. FYI - with the new Windows 10 update (now version 1803, build 17134.407), the problem persists; the preferred lifetime of the=C2=A0= temp and non-temp addresses are in sync and reset to 4 hours after each RA, but after a while, the preferred lifetime of all temp addresses stops resetting and just counts down. After getting to 0s, I expect it will stop working, and the non-temp addresses will be used for global traffic again. Addr Type=C2=A0 DAD State=C2=A0=C2=A0 Valid Life Pref. Life Address ---------=C2=A0 ----------- ---------- ---------- -----------------------= - Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h59m1s= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3h59m1s 2001:470:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 Temporary=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h59m1s=C2=A0=C2=A0 1h= 43m38s 2001:470:X:X:e9c9:11ae:1b31:4d1b Public=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h59m1s= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3h59m1s fd00:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20 Temporary=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 23h59m1s=C2=A0=C2=A0 1h= 43m38s fd00:X:X:X:e9c9:11ae:1b31:4d1b Other=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Preferred=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 inf= inite=C2=A0=C2=A0 infinite fe80:X:X:X:X:X:X:7a20%13 --=20 -Indy fireballiso@yahoo.com From nobody Wed Nov 14 20:03:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0716E12426A; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:03:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uh6yBCLMwBON; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur03olkn0807.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe0a::807]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1DC71286E3; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:02:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cPtbQ91Y202aXJ8dQVJutQhMlM8am9FMdBEinTPvur4=; b=GYWuR7x6hE98tlmkAwedTS8CYo93pKHKjpJdRrJKV5IZ17IzEtVvwHcPKzVndxypIENmqBiJoB0HmX8IadQIFVtjaFHwp4gCz7UH5C1f+SNFoDCVtYTh6pGDNQ25PuhKtZKKXsubnLh1HSi/TPEcAzAa4qxmBkkvtiobE6hLywUL/J5Bsc4IUA6gJr7D5nFlcwF+pblGWOGQBnSmVHU1uAUa5TRziVhXOxsFiaeQvq0MY0jU0faAWHt3kbntZ6cMyC1JLClWkg7VMpw/ea+fyV5RCltkqmUhJqPjLx9hnV/qsjNRGZTnRGgKKuHxyv8ntBGvMWHeGR8U1niyx3LyVA== Received: from DB5EUR03FT054.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.55) by DB5EUR03HT196.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.188) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:02:56 +0000 Received: from VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.20.60) by DB5EUR03FT054.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.248) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:02:56 +0000 Received: from VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7d34:f58a:fc35:11c2]) by VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7d34:f58a:fc35:11c2%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:02:56 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "softwires@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQ== Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:02:56 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:ED220D3D62D604685DDF86D5BAA067407B15B4E100800041403FEDD899C0254D; UpperCasedChecksum:A3A90AA3CC68C50F8F6AF85E1810F873801B67061DC2798CD4ECDB21BBDB0961; SizeAsReceived:6861; Count:43 x-tmn: [ztkGAOw0+GHGIni9ZBR2nsKSUb+gCOTA] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR03HT196; 6:BTZ26i5VSU6DuqCx1U8ZY6naO8YFlhMgxKavzndKr4Ql6hdk2yhCtyEeR4dU3yn0xdjaUbrwLAwyyjBOMt9of6UC+ZQ7hUdT9OOh3kPYGexnsg0CJkX6iplFfbZcbMb19EMb48Zl5izXkjWInhtpUevaE9+E0IVwFVvpC5BAFn/8RHAUnu4XAYZ3ow1/EMVi0Jl4KftwRFDwiKRp2zTtdWsjLarLp3Yn6nWFbg01qiYgxdrpLewH0jRbpNkQEgB8D2jH9cJFGDXQJyYN577idicjP5jFs3H0v5k9e4ldlHkz/vWKheBNwXKWecXvBC1O9tIOIKifmlEbOQw5PR8DJFpoYszGIQhawltvrl933ZGCqUqBcsPBkuJUuBapkLaFlDK9pWxHAtNlVHyC2jNsQOcqYgDvQP8pKVRRA5ZfHGkD9duLoP6J6mGGJcrZgeSzeDU3cMh8fwCBP+UgRzPwxA==; 5:o0+3OOlxPkpXg+kAPAP7Qs9vgtLMjoLFKo8vvYbYOYEbvdEJuD4JORspwgjvaGIW3CwbNC0UDq80M3L2XrmPv3xaAOTTOFSOQHuQdn3SHbxk42q546mOiwobPajqYUocuPhNlc/baD2yACB4K0OPrsFnNpbgwrNZsUgclU2hWxE=; 7:FEqFcP0QCUxjEHwAY7geNQ8ic4LdjFcJJbBi9tYWexv4m0OrBZwFA/QX/PfIg7blpVntU0tvz2OTkcfCZF+UNOisY0f/ZB8ODunK4CaAL7ALvZWT10Q8VP+/bjYTr8lZtxalMdCSbA6d3eYfoDYOZQ== x-incomingheadercount: 43 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT196; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR03HT196: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(102415395)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT196; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR03HT196; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: s2b7eBy8ScOuAhsBNj5GhjAPH4ZkbTUijBG8WUfOFyBRSCkkV9S10MFF2REyUcCe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_VI1PR04MB30881C3D106EFEDCA1CAA1A0BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: b6587b75-6f1a-4db7-b0b6-5cad10ef59a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2ccb68b1-ca5a-4bfe-37e0-08d64aaf397d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: b6587b75-6f1a-4db7-b0b6-5cad10ef59a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 04:02:56.2806 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT196 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:03:03 -0000 --_004_VI1PR04MB30881C3D106EFEDCA1CAA1A0BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR04MB30881C3D106EFEDCA1CAA1A0BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_" --_000_VI1PR04MB30881C3D106EFEDCA1CAA1A0BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be accompli= shed to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your comments will = be appreciated. Khaled --_000_VI1PR04MB30881C3D106EFEDCA1CAA1A0BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Can you check the attached modification, almost no c= hanges will be accomplished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the sa= me, your comments will be appreciated.

 

Khaled  

 

 

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([2600:8802:5600:1546::1035]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q32sm12855185otd.15.2018.11.14.21.28.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:28:22 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30C5EED4-C467-426C-8A46-4E0E7F1229A1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:28:20 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Khaled Omar References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:28:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_30C5EED4-C467-426C-8A46-4E0E7F1229A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar = wrote: >=20 > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the = host to achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the = sense that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the = applications, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every = application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance = Working Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic = elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm = trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. = But this topic doesn't belong on this list. = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an = interesting comment on projected traffic volume... --Apple-Mail=_30C5EED4-C467-426C-8A46-4E0E7F1229A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvtA/QACgkQEhdRnd2G P+AyNg//bh1j/cUAfSfkzFJ2uDNrlWNbO2hu9W5ybBehaNJ/8QeYgIqq0d5mKIlq HstlGG9OXcA/M+zrHVH952WXJLFNmqn72XJ4OoBrPEDsgJI7qLpDsYsjubA9wMq7 i3OXTNmot1hOgKk3+eTYMGv1qVBnmZuc8Ho+tbXqJtMQJj84f3JPPN3P1U3iG8iK 1vqHd04LJkvhbGlAzQwBsKkyDBJaFIxnqeK1QVfE98tEcsUKVoNLg+KUY9YNiqya w9ymAq6laOGXUCzUEl68+kzEfFR8w8wvqFeM2qZcsFuQrNw8gxW/PUW3cQZdul4l uMR4rwM137wbrai0PXZwd21zH3vWG1owmOa+yAD9ac6HBr8tROl3o8vMOVx8Ut/f Kpuq6/fsk3RGDcFt3O3r8JDtPkKWGjVJXwbgEfVZgcwUdZO6Z4vXinkFTqFiw+F+ UyR6xNZ/pHcO1wUypuCjXh7JI83Os6W/CZufYj1bquXFmLKGGRJ/e9AB9cOXjpK0 CKRtFa6VDaVhybShy/GrUxOR44n6t+k3toMh2CMK5JIHSDzEeX+hmEqOnNLGEpqz L2scBNP11O/Tcm+RnSFWWQcRrd2P+A2/6Pu7IYjEF+sfF00y3BsjClJ8rycrgpio 0jYxs1i5UW+ESxiO8FHusyNQ2K6WxRKDS7+hCa0RDG8m14Z06EU= =PI5y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_30C5EED4-C467-426C-8A46-4E0E7F1229A1-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 21:29:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDD4130E27 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MgI9KPgx7Dv0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0627130E26 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id i20so10569126otl.0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8jFde/cbhSkIca01+BZrtRtkir6Zbqg7WAtj+CuDzxo=; b=Ng1xbICqofo8AIPY0XkrR7mQcg3mGG3EKbSIsxlfwnzwSQ4zkNooh2uMM+/urYBv3l vWhwK8C0a1Gzdgid0YZqXkienBhpdISg9gZ0OW/nT9jxzk+dfs9zcOOxLKRvePTChGv+ V6pyOdGMapa3TROBQg1FE/3749MBW4A5L2l1yqo8S+GCKqaAHqOI2TpR32J7E/GYyOnM mCJPLLGQAGkM78OoV9GDmXQWP0Ps6KXJ3eIrDKUJl16wO228Z3RU6BzeNszJImyCfaPW z9Qz9FTTF7XU5DBM5HoeqTj1Ad414K5BLSc0yIDsDWCSdH+yHXenk8Zblh5ri8WbHFfp 75FQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8jFde/cbhSkIca01+BZrtRtkir6Zbqg7WAtj+CuDzxo=; b=NQQcRJm+eJpMGGtEErcaUn4uCW9OiYBUatcc/TFIpzI+EhQWwfR4jVUPhntYbeZuz7 r9RYSLda4fCfZHAHknJ/hrUWb2HGBmpxFCD/YV/TKJt1KAWiHbey00RhQAPGZ9lL1HuD jaihHzUqNhbYm8iuuKYY40CiOqQ/d6Hil/AMAz8H12MwF/bAX/TEpTPpfVTV2lP3T16J fjSVsfnclChRili6f6AvrjRDZE6qmvzzv0A3QiQCEAk4NoJ3mRd7Ih9PFw2NyPocClkR fM9Q4k7dS/9jF2tp2mi29eS+i3fMVMZspzr5zE16Z5uh8aHb+wrIcgKWyW7oSAShvaOB XTBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gL3u8ME4j0IVbD+0RqHnD6tNCM0LatJasBW9NBPkL9bbyZYbv0K 8ufImKLObgVcfyAIzLJ2TNY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fxFvJZY7uJf9X30Fj/mrb7xkRCH+AloZhwdEy+DbISWgwMW8CJlEQA5DzPNlUfGLslElFpuw== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5f85:: with SMTP id g5mr2898286oti.333.1542259761328; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1035? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1035]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q32sm12855185otd.15.2018.11.14.21.29.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:20 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_717A0B19-DEB2-472D-A5CF-BE43DF7B5349"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Khaled Omar References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:29:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_717A0B19-DEB2-472D-A5CF-BE43DF7B5349 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Not on this list. > On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:02 PM, Khaled Omar = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be = accomplished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your = comments will be appreciated. >=20 > Khaled >=20 >=20 > = _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_717A0B19-DEB2-472D-A5CF-BE43DF7B5349 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvtBC8ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+ANZxAAtt+k7sDYkkwlk2Uo7ECacWzbtORtEVHci6bcDkX+gc0QzydNjNTG9Ees 5fVeoWCXc78KeiM2g3YQMPGBb91skfObETidy3Z9Ud++FZ8kyjdmehSgZEKi4wZ9 Ee+i/0uKWqc4TMLADP2me1b8A/l23PBCBpYz9n+5R8gmBynsvsS+ZFi+/vpczLts 3K343Eo/Cwpou84eVsBdXFrgpOD7xR0OVSV0GYJ5Dqj1A5HBkCU9vv2sFfBupoME GvW7XMfU+JsvU5e4WtVWG5e7Imo9TSI2XN8yic5wWfB8VIyicBc1lCxqfRjcYlYg fjtdbM7o+ymt8XP/I4+l+x0qA1OZDDlFNbLjRDTMbAq7lSWcWPiEOFYFyx5r4zNh xu6sGM0TAVe+DANzV+67nr2oFKyyISUGMUeETFEvtTmcEaMDmS6a/37wXKEa0+uU YhxlEjVkKVzdyxKPY9R+iw4o1u4qamdTdRexBOThSac5ODuiWSEqJcF2ramuSRLS DNoNZphNtd2kD9v+kMg4JYaYqgcAl0ul3UhWV9zX5MdR9dx5P0fb64iHg27bP8K1 RXGUyUZplQoKbPvIhEsydF2k3Fx9D+cVec0bWcLUdzn1YqhzpMBDtW3oY5s0cNjS 4rhtsNLYuN1NBbw3wePZ+//iPPWTZuhdhlTZ/msIB1augCRdg8I= =MDy0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_717A0B19-DEB2-472D-A5CF-BE43DF7B5349-- From nobody Thu Nov 15 00:57:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4600B1277D2 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:57:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uYDC7LKUGhKH for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur03olkn082c.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe08::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 402AF126BED for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:57:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8s7ptFMa1peud455jAyTBUmnO7sHP2+tA5+KKuTENhU=; b=OiXAjiieZBKYKN429y66qJiBeBDeU73/kUlBdStInLPz7S99/HPaujQGcIAO9guyYsOv6JnUhZK1YGsq4MU4qSPkFGA0xNPGKuUvUA8dX0bPtdbP4IjP1+LwYblpZydVZA/dBC0K45LhUVODvG1Bu4xRFI640EKO3DIY28B5c05Qgvkpj+F8Tpzrz9lbAgFqAj+sMTtdGAIGoHzEx0NNjptkrisVtt1bPmBhOSkKfDPLa8vNkryW6QRZxJ7Qy8x7DjMGVdZegPH3M2nKmpgSwH6dCAhoy6ATfmH/VVmXzL2kHG+rVhrHcSgROKJjomm7ibIq5rbnxKpLNuK+mqytAg== Received: from DB5EUR03FT036.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.58) by DB5EUR03HT115.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.21.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:25 +0000 Received: from VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.20.54) by DB5EUR03FT036.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.185) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:25 +0000 Received: from VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7d34:f58a:fc35:11c2]) by VI1PR04MB3088.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7d34:f58a:fc35:11c2%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:25 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Fred Baker CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQADGIyAAAdEiwE= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F2AF84B635BFC8DD8CAD7A41655858996598B9C9C4C43726F532438391DCB78B; UpperCasedChecksum:A9C7C53FE6D0D6921BA2C98853E170355BD4ABF3BEE28555D55BEFF3894AD044; SizeAsReceived:7149; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [HZKKT2BbNJmolBxYiWYrRPgJmPcXCI70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR03HT115; 6:4JdhUZuSLAgiomCRfuhEiO4wCLQ4/JfomIY14sH/V4S9Qg/sOWVowcvOK5sjbG3rHBynRrfB4RuW5XKN2RoKhWzysoMaJGm8ec9b1u150czBcFQRP8bNEiziVFBHTHjw2ZDpDX6WQhAsjgJWejfpQtdgQvTcLsDegP1CA1Jl5ruXcCTHuhX9NsOkITNZueVoIbJwpQbXp5UNYRUZsH9SS8LhVAF6CCSImevd73cKfIKEwnOzjhXdQUxQYGap+X/HmMv20D5Qe5Xwmp9cPRWJr+sU+uKnAD51On9ZC6vNGeifI73t32iYEUakn70qLX2A4vAeM/tc/gZrYB23I5oPvvWVe22gOp2KCcjzD08w6ApoR03shxw/he/fpY9NWuIFfq+HiBArmy3H6xtUYA8sisqrAH35wjE485iiWi8+1n6Jb7jKOfDGni8eEmrKRmH5fbCBMWPTPGUdNy0ySVyxtQ==; 5:VPq3JiAKbKecOt4Z86z46wXw+hy0ikyixTJJoTnchO/FjZeBjJuMv4KikIN0RgBP49mliYGX4bGSBCPdy7Gk+T+HAIhVqlQuguswvbylmqWw+EgLUf7pOfdCBPZZnZWrWcLBDqG7uY8uVNqr7qmGOnD9vvW0fUTSeuuEr5TxBaY=; 7:JiLxaaQ0WDESQAe/GvCyBCGs5hT6GvhIrH8iDXv/sejRMgZegySIQhSUXdYg0U81KVQPV8oobPr9DgVtjNnMxxNqPhoRKeDjJWIgo0jy8YdaeBeetD1OGHur5frKwiXNkPoFTWhbgiVK0ZIJG68fbw== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT115; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR03HT115: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT115; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR03HT115; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 1YZzfmKP3UNpbNVd2GwyTzs2Ux0tJmg6cGD7orYiJWgIs6wS5HvDFnTXiv7k0AHi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR04MB308890BD4D25C9B449BBEF77BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: b6587b75-6f1a-4db7-b0b6-5cad10ef59a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4da51634-3146-415c-4f4f-08d64ad85d4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: b6587b75-6f1a-4db7-b0b6-5cad10ef59a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 08:57:25.7592 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT115 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:30 -0000 --_000_VI1PR04MB308890BD4D25C9B449BBEF77BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So where? :-) Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Fred Baker Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:29:19 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Not on this list. > On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:02 PM, Khaled Omar wr= ote: > > Hi, > > Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be accomp= lished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your comments wil= l be appreciated. > > Khaled > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --_000_VI1PR04MB308890BD4D25C9B449BBEF77BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So where? :-)

Best Regards
Khaled Omar

From: Fred Baker <fred= baker.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:29:19 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Not on this list.

> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:02 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@hotmail.c= om> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be acc= omplished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your comments = will be appreciated.
>
> Khaled
>
>
> <draft-omar-ipmix-01.txt>_______________________________________= ________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war,
Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
     Sun Tzu

 --_000_VI1PR04MB308890BD4D25C9B449BBEF77BDDC0VI1PR04MB3088eurp_-- From nobody Thu Nov 15 04:30:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E336C128D0C for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:30:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id igBLjAKERITJ for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB72A1286E7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8B171A071 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:30:39 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:30:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> References: To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:30:48 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: > Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be = accomplished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your = comments will be appreciated. This will be my one and only comment on this idea ... The IPv4 to IPv6 translation cannot work in the general case. You are = "somehow" expecting to encode 128 bits of address into 7 bits - without = loss. That means the entire range of IPv6 accessible to the host is no = more than 128 different addresses - which just isn't going to work. Even = in a small business I've worked with networks with more nodes than that = ! You can "steal" bits from the port number, but it's still not going to = give you much. And to get that 7 bit value, you'd need to use a lookup table* to track = the mappings, and somehow track when they were last used - you'll need = to retire old mappings to make space for new ones. So you'll need VERY = close coupling between DNS and routers - the DNS will need to give out = the same mapping that the router uses. And what happens when the host is = "fairly busy", a mapping gets retired, then the host tries to use it = again - the packets will go to the wrong IPv6 address and a connection = is broken. Just the DNS-router coupling means that it cannot work in the general = case - it would prevent anyone using anything but the DNS = server/resolver built into the router. Do you not think that many people have tried to come up with some form = of "IPv4 + extra bits" schemes without breaking everything ? No-one has = since any method of adding extra address bits means changes to the = protocol, network stacks, and applications - so it makes no more sense = than taking the opportunity to fix other things while going to a much = bigger address range that hopefully should last us for a very long time. Of the four combinations (IPv4/6 source & IPv4/6 destination), 3 are = already catered for : 4-4 is already in place, and can be tunnelled if a network drops IPv4 = transit support 6-6 is what people are working on and subject to network support is = really a solved problem - and tunnels are available to work around ISPs = like my own who still don't have support for native IPv6. 6-4 is already there as there's already a documented way to encode IPv4 = addresses in IPv6 addresses and a gateway (much like an existing IPv4 = NAT gateway) could handle translation). So that only leaves 4-6 which I've already pointed out cannot be solved = by your idea. IMO, the whole idea is a non starter and I'll make no more comment on = it. * There is no generic function that can map *ANY* IPv6 address into a 7 = bit field without either loss or collision. So the only way to do it is = to hold a list of discrete mappings and update them as the host attempts = to communicate with different destination addresses. If you think you = have found a lossless compression algorithm to compress 128 bits into 7 = bits without any restrictions then patent it and you can make a lot of = money from it ! From nobody Thu Nov 15 05:12:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48888128D0C for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:12:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cL55AJgpeX4s for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092066015.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.66.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E672126DBF for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:12:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=kGq3pAmxSD7RQJyo3IM/Um+kbrVMsRtLK9mMhtuUNx8=; b=Isibi1AlPzwZLNgMzxpkSYNqC1SLsRBSADfOQxxfGC55Sw62+BKrO1fU21LSuWEPNEjw61IjW4giarBC+sg7hWGZeVh5QoWfKCEoUXEwp6RyGU+bxkxjk0ParejQ9tMOBvhHmEYIVOwoZYnlSs500eo77YaobARSHFXR6lvUDkPJxpLnAYYFhFTpGX8+QY3Nb0u7WSYMDMPPg2v8U8Dcbrk/uit1vE0QDuB+OlZig7AiEZmB4WJeEaoipHDydHHkfci3IgvVnJ+Z/oBTkbknwXgppKAYBu1avAKo9vRLHzLJ5laFqzDpV+6OM39HH1Yp3IWIlYv5jTHTNELVuVecPw== Received: from HE1EUR01FT033.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01HT064.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:12:10 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.52) by HE1EUR01FT033.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:12:10 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:12:10 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6A= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:12:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F06570534608D43E4453CB652048F58291FBD933D312DC9B38334B1E2AA594D8; UpperCasedChecksum:193F939CAFD23B1F3B959DC0AA84360ADF3C1CF9E328DE4870B0644DBBB411F2; SizeAsReceived:7116; Count:45 x-tmn: [h4vWyIDkFQy9lkAZM1uU40COVyAgRlsv] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT064; 6:5KDmP9m5HOURzyDDjOeTl+/ZLIGQKQvpPXqax6ODNiRFvnaLdvFBXEZ2uFpjDExSz0sfGYsKHD5/hxbCSVjcsE6x/sl334mZRFpjXPl8LBSuaDXxd+FYmXM7nc5ii5aH/plJdEYgEmzdHjF+LlhoXzztAhg9fbSMCSXjiqwSMb3RsOY6kxblNWbdhkjic/VYrVoeUUM1vL2foDwDBOQAMYPunH1ryHannEdT44ztC/MTSdvWJbaxa17HzcpX2/N/8VJTCXbWdN5k7t8UgOoZwmjJn4vL4U66pLAohCUDwHpMxAIC5ft6/Igs+ZA7wJAITJmnZEOg8dSC2/5YHFDn0aOVSZawwXydNhFHb/RplHlLM/QLEEjlSz6YzgsMDPz8zwrRHNkwbEvv289F03IRqU/hiCOnWYNUckNAODrdzTRbPFOHrnYa0mDjLl9GEwOLSm01qS8QKAxIltqjqzKLhg==; 5:i53pTquVsifsBedhLUWTchxEJfSuVhpKIkXd/TtE7Wxpm6uvVYp83yq1sU0qSyGtNgpQP2eu3GIKqehwcghevmYBHkhaa8ISUfTP21v+m/yc9C5b3xL1/0iX0nyn97oJgXlPF964ZrtSG6H7ekDJimZoE4SaprsCo9JjxTUoyEY=; 7:gnc3TUsUoEoL4Za5LIydOmCO/SkN4QhvXGTebguY7+SjHwOpXZXdWP3uEY2Lm6vYrrixVlkuQEL4aU1bnewMVMZmBAjAb5gVtEyJVsOMKrqMpPw9Okjh63e47uLqj7Q5aDTiAoMLAquJ3ET/Uphv1g== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT064; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT064: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT064; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT064; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: LZzqUS/FkbesGifOn5DR8BF4U2EGxxlro/OSj4rOuLKk7/NTyzaQSCTJeUDH+Qky Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3f73b554-b990-4268-0d93-08d64afbf374 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 13:12:10.0489 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT064 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:12:15 -0000 > The IPv4 to IPv6 translation cannot work in the general case. You are "so= mehow" expecting to encode 128 bits of address into 7 bits - without loss. We can divide the IPv6 address into 4 blocks (32-bits each), meaning we wil= l encode 32-bits into 5 bits, and the whole IPv6 address into 20 bits, I'm = looking somewhere for a lossless compression (encoding) algorithm that enco= des 2^5 bits into 5 bits. -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hobson Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:31 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > Can you check the attached modification, almost no changes will be accomp= lished to the host, the IPv4 packet will remain the same, your comments wil= l be appreciated. This will be my one and only comment on this idea ... The IPv4 to IPv6 translation cannot work in the general case. You are "some= how" expecting to encode 128 bits of address into 7 bits - without loss. Th= at means the entire range of IPv6 accessible to the host is no more than 12= 8 different addresses - which just isn't going to work. Even in a small bus= iness I've worked with networks with more nodes than that ! You can "steal"= bits from the port number, but it's still not going to give you much. And to get that 7 bit value, you'd need to use a lookup table* to track the= mappings, and somehow track when they were last used - you'll need to reti= re old mappings to make space for new ones. So you'll need VERY close coupl= ing between DNS and routers - the DNS will need to give out the same mappin= g that the router uses. And what happens when the host is "fairly busy", a = mapping gets retired, then the host tries to use it again - the packets wil= l go to the wrong IPv6 address and a connection is broken. Just the DNS-router coupling means that it cannot work in the general case = - it would prevent anyone using anything but the DNS server/resolver built = into the router. Do you not think that many people have tried to come up with some form of "= IPv4 + extra bits" schemes without breaking everything ? No-one has since a= ny method of adding extra address bits means changes to the protocol, netwo= rk stacks, and applications - so it makes no more sense than taking the opp= ortunity to fix other things while going to a much bigger address range tha= t hopefully should last us for a very long time. Of the four combinations (IPv4/6 source & IPv4/6 destination), 3 are alread= y catered for : 4-4 is already in place, and can be tunnelled if a network drops IPv4 trans= it support 6-6 is what people are working on and subject to network support is really = a solved problem - and tunnels are available to work around ISPs like my ow= n who still don't have support for native IPv6. 6-4 is already there as there's already a documented way to encode IPv4 add= resses in IPv6 addresses and a gateway (much like an existing IPv4 NAT gate= way) could handle translation). So that only leaves 4-6 which I've already pointed out cannot be solved by = your idea. IMO, the whole idea is a non starter and I'll make no more comment on it. * There is no generic function that can map *ANY* IPv6 address into a 7 bit= field without either loss or collision. So the only way to do it is to hol= d a list of discrete mappings and update them as the host attempts to commu= nicate with different destination addresses. If you think you have found a = lossless compression algorithm to compress 128 bits into 7 bits without any= restrictions then patent it and you can make a lot of money from it ! _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 15 05:16:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCA112D7F8 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:16:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ZvJT7absyuk for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7F2C126DBF for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11FAA41C37 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:16:10 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F312C41C13; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:16:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id EF9DA35A65; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:16:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:16:09 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Khaled Omar Cc: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181115131609.GI72840@Space.Net> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:16:16 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 01:12:10PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > > The IPv4 to IPv6 translation cannot work in the general case. You are "somehow" expecting to encode 128 bits of address into 7 bits - without loss. > > We can divide the IPv6 address into 4 blocks (32-bits each), meaning we will encode 32-bits into 5 bits, and the whole IPv6 address into 20 bits, I'm looking somewhere for a lossless compression (encoding) algorithm that encodes 2^5 bits into 5 bits. Have fun, and report back when you found that algorithm. I would love to be able to losslessly compress all my data into 5 bits. (If you can compress 2^5 to 5 once, you can do that with the resulting bits again, and again, and again) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Nov 15 05:26:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C9D12D4EC for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:26:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nqWte2npdtUm for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A48AA126DBF for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:26:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D18BA1A071 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:26:50 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:26:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:26:56 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: >=20 > We can divide the IPv6 address into 4 blocks (32-bits each), meaning = we will encode 32-bits into 5 bits No you can't. A 32 bit value needs 32 bits to store it - otherwise you = are losing data. Alternatively, you have to take a subset of the = possible values and use a dynamic lookup table. > and the whole IPv6 address into 20 bits, I'm looking somewhere for a = lossless compression (encoding) algorithm that encodes 2^5 bits into 5 = bits. No, you're looking for a lossless compression algorithm to compress 128 = bits into 7 bits. When you invent it, as I said, patent it fast and = you'll be very very rich ! You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 = different values and the number "32". With 5 bits you can encode any = integer between 0 and 31 (using standard binary), or any 32 values if = you use an algorithm or lookup table - you cannot encode any arbitrary = element from the 4+ billion (2^32) numbers that can be represented in 32 = bits. Come back when you've figured that out. From nobody Thu Nov 15 05:48:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A860112D4E7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:48:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0C5tqwDby63 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092072010.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.72.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE389129385 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:48:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=s5ahWYA+69A/BHPmoRCLy8VKqC7XYu7RZuSetlCjDu4=; b=Ojspg25N9aqXO8Le0SSb4Jnyy4L9k1FzAhYB2ym20PYoBRVB50IxP386BbjvBonmR2bXU91s1F+3UXPfm4eeyvStsnjI4nswwhPvItffHS0zBLnNXqWgyHypH6CFq/h6YVUCo3FHRCYVna/zfz6yFdl4hTgA/kXdn043cG/DW2XBe8q/37/L/tVxof4nJclUltCGl4tzb3Mr2Gvfw0jKy8PSuYXxDSerFx2SIMJatSmRKbacg4/cOL6GiX2Ca3lfaN/gTYK4yE/ZPaYA/IgL1EwdPk+QUxCcuWXoDmuGmYs5Xy+DH6arWP33sNGCii2dSKuvFoEIFGdQjzsYBFXJQA== Received: from AM5EUR03FT019.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.52) by AM5EUR03HT030.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.200) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:48:50 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.16.54) by AM5EUR03FT019.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:48:50 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:48:50 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmw Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:48:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:BEBFFBB7B5D0725D387F0545FC339AA8364B264F22E30A3B066D7ACD91E91043; UpperCasedChecksum:3EEE67E092393840AF1E82C99AB8F5231873DF61F91DE7B75DC8F0E0E5ABBB75; SizeAsReceived:7281; Count:45 x-tmn: [d7s9DbegHOJywdZma9gANP0QRDv6vFaw] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR03HT030; 6:cbPnYaWQCK9Y4TmoC3RD3HJ5N/zgzAAqqOPm83pCVrd8mW7sGmUgDUbXpJIdTQg7L6Iun4Bat7BcqEqCvKAKR6oYVM2NGSI+RcCSGFf1BvVtUo/t4zKSio6C9gIEkUluJ9PEhEs+SRBtcoP06ZyOCikSXBXPIau6CkxZt9DniOyIACJ3ch++yKnufaleKAJBoI/LYxYFSDMitux+gxNvua0IDqhqBdERc1RHDDTpTw0cMWilYrcDnb3dyMSyx/GJgFaeXgF3V6oXiuCR8sBdC2pck9wIFZGScxrdNKbq8cTPSaYV7ti9a4xDNWTxH0bEiAg5OAS1aftiLFhqN/WexuLgK80TOerN5RPU8P3jsk+1iCspWHBo4Solsj6bGtl3Uy0BBOLWiBtVYwIkkNH1VGpw0FLy8AEZsODqfhSjsreXs3UFLq7VMUWlu13WzuyrArV6QRxiPz9yDkPLyp7Z+w==; 5:sTZ2J1ouWgrkarxCkYi6Oo4ZZY3TKeORnBD7iP70uleFVrt6Ys7ACk7Dj3SEHI//i3SDAI96bgAMqJqPoXxKDM/1NOho4aRmtNxtsbhM19b2S8Gv9Le4Tc3PDmDMmo3jvX9sa8Mb0V+CNp8TVWUn7qUISzVB4TktWdzlrz90X88=; 7:s2SNG4UV3wfbr9QYDaGxrqS/SyspUHsGfc0lvtxY26B85MuR5lfku+5jhLFm/x1zZs8jqf+q7g3qaIRs1BZ8N9tsiG3QGfKDq2YqXDqnmTFdcvfuSHn2k0+j1aGvV4hnPGxPHQhqq3N60Oo29HqFvQ== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT030; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR03HT030: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT030; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR03HT030; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qzIbKdENALZENEWS7hteDbtzcu9gefErhdNupIfF0gDSQYwpmC3E80YPDujXKRRr Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 53d88611-cd65-4370-a323-08d64b0112eb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 13:48:50.3176 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT030 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:48:58 -0000 > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different= values and the number "32". Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits output,= for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits input into = 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent 256-different= value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hobson Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:27 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: >=20 > We can divide the IPv6 address into 4 blocks (32-bits each), meaning we w= ill encode 32-bits into 5 bits No you can't. A 32 bit value needs 32 bits to store it - otherwise you are = losing data. Alternatively, you have to take a subset of the possible value= s and use a dynamic lookup table. > and the whole IPv6 address into 20 bits, I'm looking somewhere for a loss= less compression (encoding) algorithm that encodes 2^5 bits into 5 bits. No, you're looking for a lossless compression algorithm to compress 128 bit= s into 7 bits. When you invent it, as I said, patent it fast and you'll be = very very rich ! You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different v= alues and the number "32". With 5 bits you can encode any integer between 0= and 31 (using standard binary), or any 32 values if you use an algorithm o= r lookup table - you cannot encode any arbitrary element from the 4+ billio= n (2^32) numbers that can be represented in 32 bits. Come back when you've figured that out. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 15 06:06:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6199B12D4E7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMzqzA_s61gY for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CD74129385 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26EDD1A071 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:06:07 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:06:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:06:13 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 = different values and the number "32". >=20 > Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits = output, for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits = input into 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent = 256-different value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can = only represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent = 256 values, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the = output. Since you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore = those values, then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to = access much of the IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have = access to 128 (2^7) discrete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the = internet ! Since the host may require to connect with any address in a range that = (at the moment) spans something like 112 bits* (give or take a bit or = two), you are a very long way from allowing access to "the IPv6 = internet". * IIRC the global address pool is currently allocated out of the 2003:: = block. However it's sparsely done and broken up by region, then = registry, then ISP. So you can't simply say that you'll ignore = everything above (say) 2003:0:1:: and reduce the number of input bits. As already said, come back with an algorithm that will losslessly allow = ANY arbitrary 128 bit values (both arbitrary values and arbitrary = quantity of values) to be encoded in 7 bits and you might get a response = other than "cannot work". A lookup table would work for up to 128 = values, but breaks for 129 or more, and would also need lots of = integration between DNS and router, plus processing ability for managing = it and storage (128off 128bit values times however many IPv4 hosts you = want to support). Having hit NAT session table size/CPU issues in the past, I can tell you = that such a lookup table method is certainly not without it's issues. The idea is a non-starter. From nobody Thu Nov 15 06:08:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A134412D4E7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:08:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5BEcyA_mu8NM for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (gozo.iway.ch [212.25.24.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24025128CFD for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C87341C28 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:08:47 +0100 (CET) X-Iway-Path: 0 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/20439.29630); Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:08:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from owa.liveapp.ch (unknown [212.25.21.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:08:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from mbx02.liveapp.local (2001:8e0:40:907::31) by mbx02.liveapp.local (2001:8e0:40:907::31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:08:46 +0100 Received: from mbx02.liveapp.local ([fe80::250:56ff:feb1:5493]) by mbx02.liveapp.local ([fe80::250:56ff:feb1:5493%13]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:08:46 +0100 From: Silvia Hagen To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQAPtvgAAAFzVgAAAIL7gAAAxNkAAACaOoAAAis4MA== Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:08:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US, de-CH Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [2001:8e0:14ae:0:e45d:47aa:dfdd:56f2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:08:52 -0000 I admire you guys.... :-) -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Simon Hobson Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 15:06 An: v6ops@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different= values and the number "32". >=20 > Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits outpu= t, for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits input int= o 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent 256-differe= nt value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Since the host may require to connect with any address in a range that (at = the moment) spans something like 112 bits* (give or take a bit or two), you= are a very long way from allowing access to "the IPv6 internet". * IIRC the global address pool is currently allocated out of the 2003:: blo= ck. However it's sparsely done and broken up by region, then registry, then= ISP. So you can't simply say that you'll ignore everything above (say) 200= 3:0:1:: and reduce the number of input bits. As already said, come back with an algorithm that will losslessly allow ANY= arbitrary 128 bit values (both arbitrary values and arbitrary quantity of = values) to be encoded in 7 bits and you might get a response other than "ca= nnot work". A lookup table would work for up to 128 values, but breaks for = 129 or more, and would also need lots of integration between DNS and router= , plus processing ability for managing it and storage (128off 128bit values= times however many IPv4 hosts you want to support). Having hit NAT session table size/CPU issues in the past, I can tell you th= at such a lookup table method is certainly not without it's issues. The idea is a non-starter. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 15 06:38:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8054F12F1AB for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:38:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RoRbKE7VlIE7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092068027.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.68.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2C6C12785F for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:38:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Kv9b3zbR27bL9bXS+aJGfAKA1a7Z4BRN20jIY2z4GfU=; b=i5GB/uL1pD+Cotc3lB99nNFRh+zJMngxy6VshuNZAEOGaCUbKj8AWx7EAkPu8IkBSWVyUw7+vQM/4Up2S/35u2iWWYlRJo6QhTow1gbNH9sGHYs6fjiQadr6rO5PbHzo1+XCrnSNwbCx29ItvNPYhQaT8QLsJNNz+9ZB/TWSru809EExEJ1xLs8oU3QxBOOCwKOSYMDVXw9bGDF5uBS8TCNwMjGXSwo44Z0eLu38OtSjwFKcdgXeAVW7gYII/8vsQXg+sv7CXs5NAPSjN6IaC6I1ntstmrUgEtnn67e0JX/PXarIydwqTDHgHeIPGxFjvgWmx96q5vlK+RX8CQbwQw== Received: from AM5EUR02FT026.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.58) by AM5EUR02HT086.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:38:21 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.55) by AM5EUR02FT026.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.123) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:38:21 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:38:21 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAAQlQ8A== Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:38:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:04F220A39B84AD6B7CC2D654E109DD86FA5F7F63197E8A7F498250AB5651C312; UpperCasedChecksum:4CD9AA845BB17F80554668E7D78968EB76B6988D374A49A6565D7C269084456D; SizeAsReceived:7446; Count:45 x-tmn: [zAplv45c/SAKSmfxKBdjJ7/PC3Rheed/] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT086; 6:1ti3dYb7n0J8ByrIvGFNraZiCVt0SGjD/ymI6vsSCFquecDa4XncWHJE2LpUHduw+vneh7597ZwPd+AGgehtoFhx7JqPSTt+m1GgP4QdDQJFAV1OYsObvmaXd63aIFsApdB/7Fge0s7+8YuwZ06IRLYEO5w98yAqEKf88Ba6MJqFBVYvwzwpUZMuM6w4V4fegDObT5rPQW3byg5Hs6u4DsaVWsmNTvfhzd9LQsiRU7V+09hD75dRv+icAOfOuxIMXcr3b2Ko4xWbdxxPxOKUK/bN6r2bSXJyS2ty7Zc7MN+0oaoJ9KeE2LrDNeAEZT9dVoR+phrFc/gvGEjC4xFQ88JRugHciU7gpKju3UCYIvM+CRBLLK76qvEU0QI0oZmRLNOE3IG8ij1L7LoK71oavu5udu3MYGeOnpZoQhEHWYUEVZOv219kcq3YmPXlr3yZRdqBD5lUDB2H8NhY229ycg==; 5:0ET3tOsujapNWdgSS02myjm7nwYprryvI85z4+MR3ieVVZrvqYaIkBO1EaO3zNS9mZbwgrsIghJxmruXB67rqDjzpjEt6loV8ZSv/3Y+HGGUfABlTI1CEzWQjriFCr8/wcOlDPyda1rOTAV011Ne2lqsC9Ax68Gn1kA3OnSZmhE=; 7:jjVE5VWrzYAwSLjscpwy8qBcLwFHW7qD4If4yOiDFSLTqMNqniq4roJ4FIvLBT2PuoSGMJpGPetMG/ry55b0h1YhJqJH8m/NIzl7BgqG/kwyaplB3+MA5FoxFYExp7Ro53PJ3VGRKWtDMReN1IY7AQ== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT086; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT086: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(102415395)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT086; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT086; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: tlfKXRq1v/J13K/wbcpGsv7qlkRJfmCbMFOLGqR8iKkaApyuWsa4zKheWAEdx3wC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_HE1PR0402MB2937F3C51C2E801BDCEC4B1FAEDC0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 69dd7556-18d2-4927-1d4b-08d64b07fd8b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 14:38:20.9550 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT086 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:38:28 -0000 --_004_HE1PR0402MB2937F3C51C2E801BDCEC4B1FAEDC0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Check out the attached images. -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hobson Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:06 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different= values and the number "32". >=20 > Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits outpu= t, for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits input int= o 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent 256-differe= nt value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Since the host may require to connect with any address in a range that (at = the moment) spans something like 112 bits* (give or take a bit or two), you= are a very long way from allowing access to "the IPv6 internet". * IIRC the global address pool is currently allocated out of the 2003:: blo= ck. However it's sparsely done and broken up by region, then registry, then= ISP. So you can't simply say that you'll ignore everything above (say) 200= 3:0:1:: and reduce the number of input bits. As already said, come back with an algorithm that will losslessly allow ANY= arbitrary 128 bit values (both arbitrary values and arbitrary quantity of = values) to be encoded in 7 bits and you might get a response other than "ca= nnot work". A lookup table would work for up to 128 values, but breaks for = 129 or more, and would also need lots of integration between DNS and router= , plus processing ability for managing it and storage (128off 128bit values= times however many IPv4 hosts you want to support). Having hit NAT session table size/CPU issues in the past, I can tell you th= at such a lookup table method is certainly not without it's issues. The idea is a non-starter. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_004_HE1PR0402MB2937F3C51C2E801BDCEC4B1FAEDC0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: image/png; name="encoder.png" Content-Description: encoder.png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="encoder.png"; size=33987; creation-date="Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:32:36 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:32:36 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAYsAAAHnCAIAAADGtOb9AAAAB3RJTUUH4gsPDiAkG/LcFwAAIABJ REFUeJzsnXmYXFWZ/8/db93aq7rTnc6+0GEJSYgsCWBYAwjIw6Yg4i6KOg4yOorMqIwoMsoiMuCC MzyKrLIZQkBIyAaBEAJoAoKBEBLSS7prr7p19/v742ufXxnSTTpV3VXVfT5/9FNdXX3vqap7vvc9 73kXzvd9wmAwGA0JX+8BMBgMxqAwhWIwGI1LVQpl2zYWibZt0yctyyKEZDIZQojjOISQcrnsum5V w2QwGOOSqhRKkiTokSRJ+Xze933TNHme9zwvHo8Xi0We523bDgQClRLGYDAY+0m1qzxRFPv6+ggh kUjEcRxFUURR5HmeEKJpGs/zkiQRQnzfT6fT1Q+XwWCMK7gq9/Isy5Jlube3t62tjRCSy+VkWeY4 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([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:48:52 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAAQlQ8AAAbEgg Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:48:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F7961DD492FECBE7EAC28098F80B1A77F7404D9968A5C333920482F3FD1CB2D0; UpperCasedChecksum:73FB55C57A6E82B6A1DEF3984032828EAD4A0F323A68B4B3BF5B2D2E3B76DC1E; SizeAsReceived:7559; Count:45 x-tmn: [MS+pljQ7wVWwnR5o4oYNY3uy8j4y9+VF] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT007; 6:zS/FHNlECG2R01vvfGYAgrLzYJ+YeaPpMrmVNEjOd8h5gyFxs1U230Nm2HNLeTnhCkQ4Gu7fo8hyLu/DPQGtZUsoYcinBkCD5oRN7CgtfSZuGKirdr6r4dBpjg3wcNEJ1mozVv3K6Pn/M4VzBW1yNBfBAMEm4kcAUorGQqyqsOSViDY8TH0RDq9Gp8qQQaaQ9xpHolnGPCsOXv63ZIZ8pGR8Bcf8yuk0FSbFwnP0AiOXlynQVtLStBo5NhaNjF3UYzW1dIF/2yaK8b9ZUFlQvFKrJv0ziZuQEmVqLs5o83btrlcz6cOklpaAkwWQJzAvHt+QFKX9yzOYPIMVdUMGintxprTWBgeGkKtAcJ1r6xdxMiDmJFuDOYXnoUokQoF5SPcGySO/+ATAmmxMDTMwsC/tPthvMuhi2rKs2opYR5P3ZS/nbJsvq/ctRxsqGcdovq3IKtXkzq1KBm44MxmzxQ==; 5:WQ89o86BM8i98eGRNJmzncCSKbazZtcXM8OUN5D7S9Qa+thi+xCp1/XqS+tAiZdPQFrcs1ky9CWMcuT6rY5aO6gk7gMb4IBfddwohmntTe7kkqimaTfcle6HJOrZiZPpAJTsnbWw8JDogCqGEm4bbgRVQAiRkOnx8DkKCb460Uo=; 7:kFYxHNYJ943Ph989DM/wzkoAEb4ZVYHnd86tvfsZN9bMyOGpJyuf2d7Ezq/nksqITcCsaP0vbc2P+WtTluXyRsS6UbLxSrHq1v7uFFsOdZuSYSLU8KipHDxujreFXNXTLNzSmvhBkyPlRuH8P9RYFA== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT007; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT007: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT007; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT007; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fzf6nwW9UBGoXODL/CI7OmeSeDGS1sPbGuWBcFVunKZPSgf3wajGUuurwxQm4DJ/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5f30f845-94e0-4613-1a46-08d64b097637 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Nov 2018 14:48:52.8854 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT007 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:48:59 -0000 Please ignore the last e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Khaled Omar Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:38 PM To: Simon Hobson ; v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Check out the attached images. -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hobson Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:06 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different= values and the number "32". >=20 > Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits outpu= t, for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits input int= o 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent 256-differe= nt value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Since the host may require to connect with any address in a range that (at = the moment) spans something like 112 bits* (give or take a bit or two), you= are a very long way from allowing access to "the IPv6 internet". * IIRC the global address pool is currently allocated out of the 2003:: blo= ck. However it's sparsely done and broken up by region, then registry, then= ISP. So you can't simply say that you'll ignore everything above (say) 200= 3:0:1:: and reduce the number of input bits. As already said, come back with an algorithm that will losslessly allow ANY= arbitrary 128 bit values (both arbitrary values and arbitrary quantity of = values) to be encoded in 7 bits and you might get a response other than "ca= nnot work". A lookup table would work for up to 128 values, but breaks for = 129 or more, and would also need lots of integration between DNS and router= , plus processing ability for managing it and storage (128off 128bit values= times however many IPv4 hosts you want to support). Having hit NAT session table size/CPU issues in the past, I can tell you th= at such a lookup table method is certainly not without it's issues. The idea is a non-starter. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 15 09:18:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB36124BAA; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:17:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3a_Xw9gkeILh; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA42B12F1A5; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id p86so14689228lfg.5; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:17:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LMx7q1wqW+TpMCx1Ldg8MU1uhnAxcWuBZXgF2uxbUyY=; b=AuAuzz+Jpxl78IJDrjQ9lxnbUCnwRanQ7fVmfx+WjIMKbKtweSOoYkNO2x3o0tPDRv MWvht9Si9a3BWWuQxujQcD8FtbwGBs6nIni2f7JPSfgFSIMRusgpLXdMvHyuTy+2NLy1 KOYuxvxcZ/xBkVzlt6RAjJdUFG/Ij3NnwdIpg+RQpzmfyD3oZtlmyOhqlOCDiAzT7Xon w5BWiPJTKH459N/v8OKowzbyBhPse9ebZPNrseuk9z8KUat2j+vn5w5qIQq+K4cXxdUA E2Cbuz6ze5A/SbDLl9kmzA1giVXFXgPNCDvUliUAhegiJiw9GfbqXRgZW9VrtAHibsK1 vltQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LMx7q1wqW+TpMCx1Ldg8MU1uhnAxcWuBZXgF2uxbUyY=; b=F8caZ/txXBC4X8ue6az+AvYBdB7r1/z2uC2rxRVFcgKQYB7E2gmRZn2WqT5eFo61Ne UHDsWVx9eO6OoRacu2XnABlKiWDykWy2DezpTJPRHrGvaZeGWE0LumfXGTiFZ2lx2Pjg 8RQnkxGVoZZ9BO5f+cwv4aSPFufHK4xMZJzNveQvEoBd7wC+dqrKwBx8a9SzRt4qQ0k7 KYdIejCOc8f+wsSICcOUez0fXF4sMraCURY8atMXAahsXE21L21H/zReNqIbWf00QUG+ +8RaToouh+RH8NFNf420AuqlawAy9c2bhLduXWdebfs5y2BytznWSUG4d68COTNxTgCL Mbvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKnjvl9WyiTA8qJcFsdTakpN+uBf2Mu7clXH/g/lYZ1Ik3aK5tq aWUq3yazc5PBqDBHLw1BPR/SJ3+dMxljN+DbLUI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dPxfRSdYg2A0ykQdBEVk1cjI+QeO44dKENU79TnrNbZf69n/O/TJbFYgA+cV19P6FE0oDGuuPKu/Un3Wk7Qr8= X-Received: by 2002:a19:db4a:: with SMTP id s71mr4043725lfg.36.1542302272865; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:17:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 22:47:36 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , otroan@employees.org, v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c48ef057ab73b3d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:17:59 -0000 --0000000000001c48ef057ab73b3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft solves real time problems where the existing *bridge* itself is not usable. @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very *unfair way of evaluating*. For that matter whether a PIO is included in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other? I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep inventing round-about solutions for the same. If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please suggest another change for that. I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs to evaluate this draft fairly and technically. Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > in line.. > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org> > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>> HI Ole, > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Ole, > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But > am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >> support > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge > refers to the > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. I= s > that what > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for > Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in additio= n > to that. I don't > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with it= ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a waste > of time and resources. > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have= a > satisfactory solution... > >>> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Prefi= x > Delegation > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I > add this > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > non-protocol > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but > there > >> are some subtleties: > >> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appea= r > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protocol= s > >> are concerned. > > > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > > > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services > > > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered according > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCPv6 > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > > > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs, > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > > > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments based > > on these recent discussions? > > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion. > > Brian > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different than > =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 > protocol proposals? > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 > option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. B= y > including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are > fewer messages > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a = round > trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependence > between the two > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA > exchange and check the > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying > that that is no longer > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > protocol between routers. > >>> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of > four. That matters > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>> Use header compression then. > >>> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso h= ow > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everythin= g > in > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring > multiple > >>> channel accesses. > >>> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you > get > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common da= ta > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > protocols > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just > options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not differen= t > than DHCPv6. > >>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND is > also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router > >>>> delegation. > >>> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). In > this > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indication > that > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>> > >>> Thanks - Fred > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Cheers > >>>> Ole > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>> Ole > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions= =E2=80=9D of an > IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >> lot > >>>>>> more > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> v6ops mailing list > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --0000000000001c48ef057ab73b3d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,

To be honest, there is no in= tention to compete with other existing protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC ha= s got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and the same is covered in the draf= t.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where this draft solves real time problems whe= re the existing=C2=A0bridge=C2=A0itself is not usable.
@Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from th= e router using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it&= #39;s very unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a= PIO is included in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from = router.=C2=A0 When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down jus= t by saying it as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not= .

If a device soliciting required information usin= g the existing protocol standards without new message types or option types= or flags itself is treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, = aren't there overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be s= ent to the devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and= DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redunda= nt protocols to each other?

I also agree that mult= iple attempts were made by many respected members of the forum to bring in = similar changes to whatever my current draft suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure = why they couldn't become standards.=C2=A0 It shows the need of devices = that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep inventing round-abo= ut solutions for the same.

If someone sees a probl= em in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please suggest another change for= that.

I understand that the forum h= as finite reservations on providing extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0= But I request the forum and WG chairs to evaluate this draft fairly and te= chnically.

Yours= ,
Naveen.


On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wr= ote:
in line..
On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Ole Troan <= otroan@employees.= org>
>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>
>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>> HI Ole,
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6op= s list <v6ops@ietf.o= rg>
>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-na= veen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@= boeing.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>=
>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG= <ipv6@ietf.org&g= t;; v6ops list <v6op= s@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L= <Fred.L.= Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= >
>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>;= 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notificat= ion for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DH= CPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more resources= at router to
>> support
>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite differe= nt from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the= bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the = water under the bridge refers to the
>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol= for prefix delegation. Is that what
>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* cho= sen protocol for Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based = protocol in addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the comm= unity agree with it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providin= g multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only sol= ution?
>>>>
>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved = is a waste of time and resources.
>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2= =80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
>>>
>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution t= o Prefix Delegation
>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed= *. (I add this
>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lis= ts other non-protocol
>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.)
>>
>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solutio= n, but there
>> are some subtleties:
>>
>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop= people
>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply a= ppear
>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the= IETF protocols
>> are concerned.
>
> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our<= br> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we
> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document:<= br> >
> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must be considere= d according
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example service is that o= ffered by DHCPv6
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based on IPv6 ND = messaging has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as propriet= ary IPAMs,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]."
>
> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments base= d
> on these recent discussions?

I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as<= br> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the
boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management
intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
> Thanks - Fred
>
>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing
>> https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing=
>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix
>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an<= br> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any= sort
>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>
>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#secti= on-6.3.4
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, ha= s to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are= talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of in= cluding a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then= that is not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message ex= change, there are fewer messages
>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is inter= esting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You = will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on= each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a= cross-dependence between the two
>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait unti= l the RS/RA exchange and check the
>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips).= Are you saying that that is no longer
>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are d= eprecated?
>>>>
>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits= . PD is a protocol between routers.
>>>
>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with th= at.
>>>
>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - t= wo instead of four. That matters
>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>
>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question = is moreso how
>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending ev= erything in
>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requi= ring multiple
>>> channel accesses.
>>>
>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker on= e-nine" you get
>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to u= ndergo
>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that co= mmon data
>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CS= MA protocols
>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's tran= smission.)
>>>
>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol se= mantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are= not different than DHCPv6.
>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>
>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valua= ble. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per= -router
>>>> delegation.
>>>
>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-o= ne). In this
>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is ind= ication that
>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Ole
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cperm= issionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved th= at problem, would be a
>> lot
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf= .org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<= /a>
>>>
>

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
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list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRA= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:43:42 +0000 Message-ID: <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ccxcXjE2oTqs for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24E15127598 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id r63-v6so19886122wma.4 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:36:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FkSiD8lsieUSyyFiYZ2jqFn73eqIEMptVt7v+82k5gU=; b=zdKlf2pH5Ry0TswuSzVwbriXCzzlxldaBBqIWC3CfvBh8X6xx1VjcB/qRv7XF6SjAj 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5crQRbeNvo/rPXelJUiChP9pDOZIDcFX4ydIkPTNdeERGuqjw57NyVH5Xr4J5bMPhHGm5vpGyXwLxSuMW8GepE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f112:: with SMTP id p18mr95688wmh.83.1542307016062; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:36:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:36:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Khaled Omar , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3cf2a057ab85555" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:37:01 -0000 --000000000000d3cf2a057ab85555 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host > to achieve the last part. > > Two comments: > > 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the > sense that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the > applications, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every > application. > > 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. > > Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance > Working Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic > elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm > trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. > But this topic doesn't belong on this list. > This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter. The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this. W > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an > interesting comment on projected traffic volume... > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000d3cf2a057ab85555 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Th= u, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.= org) and asked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for I= Pv6 Operations (v6ops@i= etf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don'= t know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list.
=

This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that = V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter.

Th= e fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this= is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.
W
=C2=A0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


--
I don't t= hink the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the firs= t place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later exp= ressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pai= r of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf
--000000000000d3cf2a057ab85555-- From nobody Thu Nov 15 10:51:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D270012F1A6; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PDGxY7og7w6n; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E450127332; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (77.16.70.189.tmi.telenormobil.no [77.16.70.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C53ABFECBF16; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:51:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EAE9E3042; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:50:56 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:50:56 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: Naveen Kottapalli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:51:08 -0000 Naveen, Let me quote from RFC1958: 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without of course using this argument to reject improvements. What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99= t covered by existing solutions? Cheers, Ole > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli = wrote: >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing = protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality = and the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this = draft solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not = usable. >=20 > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the = router using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO = it's very unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is = included in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from = router. When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just = by saying it as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is = not. >=20 > If a device soliciting required information using the existing = protocol standards without new message types or option types or flags = itself is treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't = there overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to = the devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? = Am I wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to each other? >=20 > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected = members of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current = draft suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It = shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure = people keep inventing round-about solutions for the same. >=20 > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, = please suggest another change for that. >=20 > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing = extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs = to evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >=20 > Yours, > Naveen. >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > in line.. > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Brian, > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan = > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>> HI Ole, > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG = ; v6ops list > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Ole, > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG = ; v6ops list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG = ; v6ops list > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for = draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. = But am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >> support > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge = refers to the > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix = delegation. Is that what > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for = Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in = addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with = it? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple = equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a = waste of time and resources. > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t = have a satisfactory solution... > >>> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to = Prefix Delegation > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. = (I add this > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other = non-protocol > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, = but there > >> are some subtleties: > >> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop = people > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply = appear > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF = protocols > >> are concerned. > >=20 > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on = our > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. =46rom that document: > >=20 > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >=20 > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered = according > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by = DHCPv6 > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >=20 > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary = IPAMs, > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >=20 > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments = based > > on these recent discussions? >=20 > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different = discussiion. >=20 > Brian >=20 > >=20 > > Thanks - Fred > >=20 > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different = than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 = protocol proposals? > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 = option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely = true. By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there = are fewer messages > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save = a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each = other. > >>>>> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a = cross-dependence between the two > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the = RS/RA exchange and check the > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you = saying that that is no longer > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a = protocol between routers. > >>> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead = of four. That matters > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>> Use header compression then. > >>> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is = moreso how > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending = everything in > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring = multiple > >>> channel accesses. > >>> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" = you get > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to = undergo > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common = data > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA = protocols > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just = options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not = different than DHCPv6. > >>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND = is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for = per-router > >>>> delegation. > >>> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). = In this > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is = indication that > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>> > >>> Thanks - Fred > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Cheers > >>>> Ole > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>> Ole > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless = extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that = problem, would be a > >> lot > >>>>>> more > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> v6ops mailing list > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>> > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 15 11:37:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17620128CF2; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 11:37:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 15 Nov 2018 11:37:20 -0800 (PST) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , Naveen Kottapalli Cc: "otroan@employees.org" , v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:37:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:37:25 -0000 On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Naveen, >=20 > The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA messages= requires > a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namely, D= HCPv6). > The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but requi= res a > *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My feelin= g is that once > the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like DHCP= v6, and > some people have said that they do not want new protocols. >=20 > I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol should be= DHCPv6, > but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like DHC= Pv6? I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property that RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can build any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of transactio= nal integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocation. So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. Brian >=20 > Thanks - Fred >=20 > From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; otroan@employees.= org; v6ops list ; 6man WG > Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management-00.txt >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing prot= ocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and th= e same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft sol= ves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable. >=20 > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router= using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very= unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in = RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this= draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a r= edundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >=20 > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol= standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is t= reated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overla= pping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices? = For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I wrong in = quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other?= >=20 > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members= of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft su= ggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows the = need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep i= nventing round-about solutions for the same. >=20 > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please= suggest another change for that. >=20 > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing extens= ions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs to eva= luate this draft fairly and technically. >=20 > Yours, > Naveen. >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > in line.. > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> Hi Brian, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >; Ole Troan > >>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG > >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-= prefix-management-00.txt >>> >>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> HI Ole, >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >; 6man WG >; v6ops list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaa= c-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ole, >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >; 6man WG >; v6ops list <= v6ops@ietf.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sl= aac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >; 6man WG >; v6ops list= > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-= slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But= am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>> support >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge r= efers to the >>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. = Is that what >>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for P= refix Delegation >>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in additi= on to that. I don't >>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with i= t? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equi= valent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>>> >>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a wast= e of time and resources. >>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t hav= e a satisfactory solution... >>>> >>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Pref= ix Delegation >>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I = add this >>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other non-p= rotocol >>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>> >>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but = there >>> are some subtleties: >>> >>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people= >>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appe= ar >>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protoco= ls >>> are concerned. >> >> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our >> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >> >> "10. Prefix Delegation Services >> >> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accordin= g >> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCPv= 6 >> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has >> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >> >> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs,= >> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >> >> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments base= d >> on these recent discussions? >=20 > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= =2E >=20 > Brian >=20 >> >> Thanks - Fred >> >>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort >>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>> >>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>> >>> Brian >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different tha= n =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 pr= otocol proposals? >>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 o= ption in RS/RA messages >>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. = By including both the IPv6 >>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are = fewer messages >>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a= round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>>> >>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependenc= e between the two >>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA = exchange and check the >>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying = that that is no longer >>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>>> >>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a pro= tocol between routers. >>>> >>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>>> >>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead o= f four. That matters >>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>> Use header compression then. >>>> >>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso = how >>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everythi= ng in >>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring m= ultiple >>>> channel accesses. >>>> >>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you= get >>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo= >>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common d= ata >>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA pro= tocols >>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>>> >>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just o= ptions in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not differe= nt than DHCPv6. >>>>>> That is the whole point. >>>>> >>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND i= s also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router= >>>>> delegation. >>>> >>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). I= n this >>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indicatio= n that >>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>>> >>>> Thanks - Fred >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Ole >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions= =E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would b= e a >>> lot >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> >> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 15 11:42:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D320130E76; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 11:41:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org 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XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 11:41:35 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 11:41:35 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli CC: "otroan@employees.org" , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAAFRZggAAQvSdg Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:41:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ak71kEmQhTrRResSGcwnJrgAyeuucp+uR4yM4ENdqUg=; b=B3t0x2PxdPo4ZgltII0GCwAkSfKaLnu19va4/y2CkgjmYEdk4+BeR9DZyQOi0jlKYi 7xgfTiCXrge8aQGIKVskPkV5bx+LcxUeyXUwOfIvkQ/2ygWCz46HJSzHE+riJ1wpY3AY BKxdABmXOofT+KnaTJmsSIGnyOJOLH6oKD5FIxkYS1EUpCW5D616U26+sJFFkUD5KdCl LdvwukjPhqGmnK7EnA+mVXZD4fpQmKDQfaBsArBq0AUHJneXoqxIoFt6WRJbIxv9F8C8 FHH0rhIkTHH5SPKTvKSpPCOVbGWkpfaR0dlIjcgoj9KlCkLfYlZH9nD8n5JyEE+eoCKB 2P3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ak71kEmQhTrRResSGcwnJrgAyeuucp+uR4yM4ENdqUg=; b=s17W2ogRfwHatFNYFXZyoHYsSaLXEaaEq2eVyevrz3Z5axNIpXGZu0tM0tVdG31k38 nLLLXvcgHNNR1I1Xu0LffmSaVLgS6bxnHEi2MxN7u3uHE0Ta4itIO/Xgggq0VFHhr9mC 2WVrCfa/nqF3OIC+VQV+r2UbmogimUe1Pp3eOZPflzt6nqWTtee2TF99zzFn0wPLDEhc HWX1TPfXhHNGCC7+yaJCIpOd8GWjP7HpToIzccaM6zJy2vFGix8ceAS+l0ROuFhTEh3J 1aXvghbS0Jt2eoXp9YH4fO3kXlcOxQbehaSfj2nQSa8oC2Bq0dAYg40gTC3XVhF/rmeP H5cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIAVFhwL8kZdqPvZfJyPQ2gRvMrZ6H2a41hIiBAvyp28npmEckn ghjCEJUP7AGhXUYbLZa5eNbI5useHNBpEReNB8OSrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5d11slsRG8Yz75G7tx8fGiMx4fnSUxbvIe+5SXp0CRMEErEjI43CqxLPZrPEjKoFV0UOqS53vDYX7neO+jMyc4= X-Received: by 2002:adf:90af:: with SMTP id i44-v6mr6904750wri.77.1542320908909; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:28:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:27:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7d79d057abb9161" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 22:28:34 -0000 --000000000000e7d79d057abb9161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > Hi Warren, > > > The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 > only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no > relevance to any of these WGs? > > > We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in your proposal. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going to change that. W > Khaled > > > > *From:* Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM > *To:* Fred Baker > *Cc:* Khaled Omar ; IPv6 Operations < > v6ops@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > > > > > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host > to achieve the last part. > > Two comments: > > 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the > sense that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the > applications, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every > application. > > 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. > > Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance > Working Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic > elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm > trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. > But this topic doesn't belong on this list. > > > > This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly > doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter. > > > > The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that > this is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this. > > > > W > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an > interesting comment on projected traffic volume... > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > -- > > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea > in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of > pants. > ---maf > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000e7d79d057abb9161 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Th= u, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /div>

The protocol is under development, b= ut does this means that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-on= ly hosts and vice versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

=C2=A0

<= /blockquote>

We already have multiple transition technologies= -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in your proposal.=C2= =A0
Bob Hinden told = you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has= said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him.=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"">I understand that you believe=C2=A0t= hat you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any support for t= his in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be frustr= ating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going=C2=A0 to chang= e that.

W


=C2=A0

Khaled

=C2=A0

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:



> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and a= sked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations= (v6ops@ietf.org). = I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong = on this list.

=C2=A0

This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certain= ly doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter.

=C2=A0

The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said = that this is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on = this.

=C2=A0

W

=C2=A0

----------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


=C2=A0

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it = was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf



--
I don't t= hink the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the firs= t place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later exp= ressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pai= r of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf
--000000000000e7d79d057abb9161-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 06:02:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02BDC130E0E for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 06:02:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id onxOqYoNUvxR for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 06:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092067081.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.67.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BF7B130E0F for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 06:02:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=smQi/7l0CL0ci3HgvlCX08+ATtMvVRc7IBlkqNrOdE4=; b=vStcarIeR1p+crqROkZD6JwZ/O2RQo4OXMkd9esxZfuXlj61XdkLlyfIfYg1SF3Vv5snJYtxjp4p/+KqrQMCKXiCMAbcZ3DBRwz3H8SHgqQYHhwod55pPM1mdXKED7mdJaeJ66g95RxYHDCX/Kk/QcvaqzMFmhA1y7g5jdCx7kbOOwx0ipR/BAeO1mE/Y9mm+ilXWqyljmwVkSUEPRoBgQyAY2Xp/RV4dWa2xytvIc1mohEL0JlmflOyZw90x4sekH1rTOsEJrS3lWRnFF5q7z3WmZWQj6GKSbhyEnWuefTnOVr9Z7o1QFaFCRAbx0iu0Y6X+kdVt+TV1PcO8dh9xA== Received: from VE1EUR02FT022.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.54) by VE1EUR02HT033.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.13.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:02:00 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.12.58) by VE1EUR02FT022.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:02:00 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.045; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:02:00 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwA== Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:02:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:D19DF915F5225467301F62C7EE60777AA05837411EC3E19CEE6DFF8303DC4D3A; UpperCasedChecksum:27A2516EA2095407D975AC98E0287205EC8B20F4B9F137DE851AAB20AF04DF30; SizeAsReceived:7443; Count:45 x-tmn: [QWZ4GVXsglypLiPx2l7XgAMJRsxC33Yq] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT033; 6:vVW6R4/eTE57fNa7jCmNL4FWCogmErX2qfDWCCR69gB5/AKnYSrZJ849tztdVvVNgyPErfiCu/a76JHl+e4hl0GogWoXTOh2lw8OHvWADJn4dSkm8HdUsTg4VVs0orIPHtob22/ATTp8vpL3rPKv2OB62En9XxSoGEu3mrDZwgrsCOlv+qijtjTjPlZ0MrxsVPOgl+dBU/05zvgeSxWnhDnC2pnNdS742KpkucsWgy3miZTdAf1Lf13jlImBt6+OySeng+/85eGnk51QMlW5tn4kkw2/QQ45ybYUPKRSnsqIMO0ReibXmhVkeCJXsT8c4ZVpwnjLt4iCkLmhYKAn4vpxVnpeVecMPBuPhyK2JyZl73tIJ1IhqfoWe0flFVhbjmqMvQnXe5O+wp6g5nRWLbuHjK+fvQ1FHttFSXj/W48RCp918JD2jcO6UYKAnIAA93O4z9F6XeA3oWyxo1Oe+A==; 5:+lOB/H6Mo0WiqVKjpyBVcBeDXwLDmmZm+YOEy7Q+KYbCXiYu7NM3LbAQEZCdrmKFGmuoTRgs98Djbibk4L+2VTqSRMNHUbqIQU22xUoMl3vNmdEutTen9m6rdhTFu1pzshCEiRpx7hS2rurhktXVNAS7+w+CBfL+xiTTOaZqr9U=; 7:xyzxMNLxqQl2QwsvV3zIzBpJqabDbBQMxEo7l6lz49nAtB9n6mjvmYCRWF6bBpy3VefAA4wTMSOXW5HND5TGA2GKaGLnEK0cYq6Z9Qnp1J0BjMNYuqteUaXfnsv7X/sYUH/Z7eE/Aq6bTrYZ7Km35Q== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT033; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR02HT033: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(102415395)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT033; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT033; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: NR/qbknjNNGNHaJVOmKVpQzUCf9S2KDrKhZNE9/E6IgUfozEncUdQ5jUaJjDmFfI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_HE1PR0402MB293704E2A387B41DF4A3BF0EAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a206aae0-9c2b-4416-0608-08d64c953ed4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 14:02:00.6313 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT033 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:02:08 -0000 --_002_HE1PR0402MB293704E2A387B41DF4A3BF0EAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can onl= y represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 va= lues, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. = Since you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those valu= es, then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of th= e IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) dis= crete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Check this out. Khaled -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hobson Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:06 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > You are getting confused between "32 bits" which can store 2^32 different= values and the number "32". >=20 > Who said that, "encoders" compresses the 2^n-bits input into n-bits outpu= t, for small encoders, if n=3D3, that encoder can compress 8-bits input int= o 3-bits output, does this means that only 3-bits can represent 256-differe= nt value, no, but, 8-bits can be compressed into 3-bits.=20 You are sort-of half right - but not seeing where the problem lies. The problem you have is that however you do it, the 3 bits output can only = represent 8 different values. Since the input 8 bits can represent 256 valu= es, there are 248 input values that cannot be represented in the output. Si= nce you cannot (for the application you are suggesting) ignore those values= , then your idea simply will not allow the IPv4 host to access much of the = IPv6 address space. At the very most it will have access to 128 (2^7) discr= ete IPv6 addresses - which is not much of the internet ! Since the host may require to connect with any address in a range that (at = the moment) spans something like 112 bits* (give or take a bit or two), you= are a very long way from allowing access to "the IPv6 internet". * IIRC the global address pool is currently allocated out of the 2003:: blo= ck. However it's sparsely done and broken up by region, then registry, then= ISP. So you can't simply say that you'll ignore everything above (say) 200= 3:0:1:: and reduce the number of input bits. As already said, come back with an algorithm that will losslessly allow ANY= arbitrary 128 bit values (both arbitrary values and arbitrary quantity of = values) to be encoded in 7 bits and you might get a response other than "ca= nnot work". A lookup table would work for up to 128 values, but breaks for = 129 or more, and would also need lots of integration between DNS and router= , plus processing ability for managing it and storage (128off 128bit values= times however many IPv4 hosts you want to support). Having hit NAT session table size/CPU issues in the past, I can tell you th= at such a lookup table method is certainly not without it's issues. The idea is a non-starter. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_002_HE1PR0402MB293704E2A387B41DF4A3BF0EAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet; name="32-to-5.xlsx" Content-Description: 32-to-5.xlsx Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="32-to-5.xlsx"; size=19472; creation-date="Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:02:48 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:36:50 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQBBN4LPbgEAAAQFAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIooAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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<1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:46:02 +0530 Message-ID: To: Ole Troan Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b8899057adf717d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:16:23 -0000 --0000000000000b8899057adf717d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ole, Following are the things that am trying to solve. 1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked for. 2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equally more important for the protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an important resource for the router). Please let me know which of the above points you think are not valid. Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan Naveen, > > Let me quote from RFC1958: > > 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. > If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has > successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless > there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same > protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without > of course using this argument to reject improvements. > > > What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80= =99t > covered by existing solutions? > > Cheers, > Ole > > > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d > the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft > solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable. > > > > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router > using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very > unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in R= S > or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this > draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a > redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > > > > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol > standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is > treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I > wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to ea= ch > other? > > > > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members > of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft > suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows th= e > need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep > inventing round-about solutions for the same. > > > > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please > suggest another change for that. > > > > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs = to > evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > > > > Yours, > > Naveen. > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > in line.. > > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org> > > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG > > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > >> > > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > >>> HI Ole, > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Ole, > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Fred, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Fred, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. Bu= t > am sure it would consume more resources at router to > > >> support > > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge > refers to the > > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. > Is that what > > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Sure. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for > Prefix Delegation > > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > addition to that. I don't > > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with > it? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > > >>>> > > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > waste of time and resources. > > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t ha= ve a > satisfactory solution... > > >>> > > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > Prefix Delegation > > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I > add this > > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > non-protocol > > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > > >> > > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but > there > > >> are some subtleties: > > >> > > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peopl= e > > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > appear > > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > protocols > > >> are concerned. > > > > > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our > > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > > > > > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services > > > > > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accordi= ng > > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCP= v6 > > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > > > > > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs= , > > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > > > > > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments bas= ed > > > on these recent discussions? > > > > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as > > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= . > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > > >> > > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > > >> > > >> Brian > > >> > > >>> > > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 > protocol proposals? > > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 > option in RS/RA messages > > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. > By including both the IPv6 > > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are > fewer messages > > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save = a round > trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > cross-dependence between the two > > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA > exchange and check the > > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying > that that is no longer > > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > > >>>> > > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > protocol between routers. > > >>> > > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > > >>> > > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead > of four. That matters > > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > > >>>> Use header compression then. > > >>> > > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso > how > > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > everything in > > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring > multiple > > >>> channel accesses. > > >>> > > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" yo= u > get > > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to underg= o > > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common > data > > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > protocols > > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > > >>> > > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just > options in ND instead of DHCP. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > different than DHCPv6. > > >>>>> That is the whole point. > > >>>> > > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND > is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-route= r > > >>>> delegation. > > >>> > > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). > In this > > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > indication that > > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks - Fred > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Cheers > > >>>> Ole > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Cheers > > >>>>>> Ole > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extension= s=E2=80=9D of an > IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > > >> lot > > >>>>>> more > > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>> Ole > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> v6ops mailing list > > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > >>> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --0000000000000b8899057adf717d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ole,

Following are the things that am trying to solve.

1. I can't sell oranges when apples are a= sked for.
2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by provid= ing options like soliciting a prefix of certain length; releasing or declin= ing a prefix (this is equally more important for the protocol perspective i= tself as a prefix is an important resource for the router).

Please let me know which of the above= points you think are not valid.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen


=
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole = Troan <otroan@employees.org = wrote:
Naveen,

Let me quote from RFC1958:

3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, ha= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution= unless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0there is a good technical reason not to.=C2=A0 Duplication of = the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, w= ithout
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of course using this argument to reject improvements.


What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99t= covered by existing solutions?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail= .com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing pro= tocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where this dr= aft solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usabl= e.
>
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the route= r using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's v= ery unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.=C2=A0 = When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it= as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoco= l standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is tr= eated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overl= apping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?=C2= =A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I wr= ong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each o= ther?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected member= s of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sug= gested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become standards.=C2=A0 It= shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure peop= le keep inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pleas= e suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing exten= sions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the forum and WG chairs to= evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.c= arpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm= ail.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
> >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= >; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
> >> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.or= g>
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-navee= n-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>
> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> >>> HI Ole,
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
> >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@bo= eing.com>
> >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<= /a>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org> > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for dra= ft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L &l= t;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ole,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.or= g]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
> >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Te= mplin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gm= ail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification= for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), F= red L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ole,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@empl= oyees.org]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57= PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.= sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@iet= f.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Noti= fication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent th= at DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more reso= urces at router to
> >> support
> >>>>>>>> DHCPv6
> >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC.<= br> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite di= fferent from SLAAC.
> >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water unde= r the bridge. Since 2003.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment,= the water under the bridge refers to the
> >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the pro= tocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
> >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the= * chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
> >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-b= ased protocol in addition to that. I don't
> >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the= community agree with it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid pro= viding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail= .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and onl= y solution?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already so= lved is a waste of time and resources.
> >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don= =E2=80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
> >>>
> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solut= ion to Prefix Delegation
> >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is n= eeded*. (I add this
> >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'= ; lists other non-protocol
> >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>
> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF so= lution, but there
> >> are some subtleties:
> >>
> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually= stop people
> >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would sim= ply appear
> >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far a= s the IETF protocols
> >> are concerned.
> >
> > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on= our
> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we<= br> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that docum= ent:
> >
> > "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must be cons= idered according
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example service is t= hat offered by DHCPv6
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based on IPv= 6 ND messaging has
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive= -bit].
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as pro= prietary IPAMs,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >
> > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments= based
> > on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals suc= h as
> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management<= br> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiio= n.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >> https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
> >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mi= ssing
> >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix=
> >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges o= f an
> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar i= n any sort
> >> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
> >>
> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something ne= w, has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are yo= u are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
> >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea = of including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
> >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping",= then that is not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
> >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messa= ge exchange, there are fewer messages
> >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is = interesting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting.= You will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depe= nd on each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there= is a cross-dependence between the two
> >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait= until the RS/RA exchange and check the
> >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tr= ips). Are you saying that that is no longer
> >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits = are deprecated?
> >>>>
> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O= bits. PD is a protocol between routers.
> >>>
> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine wi= th that.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer message= s - two instead of four. That matters
> >>>>> a great deal on low end links.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
> >>>> Use header compression then.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the ques= tion is moreso how
> >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendi= ng everything in
> >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than = requiring multiple
> >>> channel accesses.
> >>>
> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, break= er one-nine" you get
> >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having= to undergo
> >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say th= at common data
> >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have the= ir CSMA protocols
> >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's= transmission.)
> >>>
> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoc= ol semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - the= y are not different than DHCPv6.
> >>>>> That is the whole point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is = valuable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable fo= r per-router
> >>>> delegation.
> >>>
> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one= -to-one). In this
> >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message i= s indication that
> >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Ole
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80= =9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that so= lved that problem, would be a
> >> lot
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/v6ops
> >>>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps

--0000000000000b8899057adf717d-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 09:35:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD5B130934; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:35:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8lRxZeusjgft; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A4912DD85; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.187] (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 749B4FECBEAD; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:35:17 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-79A26D6E-B86D-4EC4-AFC2-EF0B1B98CFD6 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:35:13 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: Naveen Kottapalli Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:35:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail-79A26D6E-B86D-4EC4-AFC2-EF0B1B98CFD6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Naveen, While the purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not be f= or the rest of us.=20 Can you please describe the problem you are trying to solve? Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your problem? Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem desc= ription I am hoping for.=20 Cheers=20 Ole > On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli wrote= : >=20 > Hello Ole, >=20 > Following are the things that am trying to solve. >=20 > 1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked for. > 2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a pr= efix of certain length; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equally mor= e important for the protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an important r= esource for the router). >=20 > Please let me know which of the above points you think are not valid. >=20 > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen >=20 >=20 >> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan > Naveen, >>=20 >> Let me quote from RFC1958: >>=20 >> 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. >> If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has >> successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless >> there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same >> protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without >> of course using this argument to reject improvements. >>=20 >>=20 >> What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99= t covered by existing solutions? >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Ole >>=20 >> > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli wr= ote: >> >=20 >> > Hello all, >> >=20 >> > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing prot= ocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and the s= ame is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft solves re= al time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable. >> >=20 >> > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router= using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very un= fair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in RS or n= ot, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this draft sol= ves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a redundant to a= nother standard, while actually it is not. >> >=20 >> > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol= standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is trea= ted as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overlapping o= ptions in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices? For that m= atter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I wrong in quoting that b= oth DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other? >> >=20 >> > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members= of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sugge= sted. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows the need o= f devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep inventing r= ound-about solutions for the same. >> >=20 >> > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please= suggest another change for that. >> >=20 >> > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing extens= ions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs to evalua= te this draft fairly and technically. >> >=20 >> > Yours, >> > Naveen. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> > in line.. >> > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > > Hi Brian, >> > >=20 >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >> > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan >> > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >> > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt >> > >> >> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > >>> HI Ole, >> > >>> >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >> > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >> > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Ole, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >> > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-s= laac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Fred, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >> > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Fred, >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. Bu= t am sure it would consume more resources at router to >> > >> support >> > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >> > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >> > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >> > >>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge r= efers to the >> > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation.= Is that what >> > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Sure. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for P= refix Delegation >> > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in addit= ion to that. I don't >> > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with i= t? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple equ= ivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a was= te of time and resources. >> > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t ha= ve a satisfactory solution... >> > >>> >> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to Pre= fix Delegation >> > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I= add this >> > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other non-= protocol >> > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >> > >> >> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but= there >> > >> are some subtleties: >> > >> >> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peopl= e >> > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply app= ear >> > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protoc= ols >> > >> are concerned. >> > >=20 >> > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our= >> > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. =46rom that document: >> > >=20 >> > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services >> > >=20 >> > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accordi= ng >> > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCP= v6 >> > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has >> > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >> > >=20 >> > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs= , >> > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >> > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >> > >=20 >> > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments bas= ed >> > > on these recent discussions? >> >=20 >> > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as >> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the >> > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management >> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= . >> >=20 >> > Brian >> >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Thanks - Fred >> > >=20 >> > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >> > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >> > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >> > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort >> > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >> > >> >> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >> > >> >> > >> Brian >> > >> >> > >>> >> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different th= an =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 p= rotocol proposals? >> > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 o= ption in RS/RA messages >> > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true.= By including both the IPv6 >> > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are= fewer messages >> > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a= round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependen= ce between the two >> > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA= exchange and check the >> > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying= that that is no longer >> > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >> > >>>> >> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a pr= otocol between routers. >> > >>> >> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >> > >>> >> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead o= f four. That matters >> > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >> > >>>> Use header compression then. >> > >>> >> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso= how >> > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everyth= ing in >> > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring m= ultiple >> > >>> channel accesses. >> > >>> >> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" yo= u get >> > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to underg= o >> > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common d= ata >> > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA pr= otocols >> > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >> > >>> >> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just o= ptions in ND instead of DHCP. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not differ= ent than DHCPv6. >> > >>>>> That is the whole point. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND i= s also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router >> > >>>> delegation. >> > >>> >> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). I= n this >> > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indicati= on that >> > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Cheers >> > >>>> Ole >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> Cheers >> > >>>>>> Ole >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extension= s=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a= >> > >> lot >> > >>>>>> more >> > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, >> > >>>>>>>> Ole >> > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> v6ops mailing list >> > >>> v6ops@ietf.org >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > >>> >> > >=20 >> >=20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > v6ops mailing list >> > v6ops@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 --Apple-Mail-79A26D6E-B86D-4EC4-AFC2-EF0B1B98CFD6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi N= aveen,

While the purpose of= the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not be for the rest of us.&n= bsp;

Can you please describ= e the problem you are trying to solve?

Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your p= roblem?

Note, =E2=80=9CPD i= s not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem description I am hoping= for. 

Cheers 
Ole

On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, N= aveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@= gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ole,

Following are the things that am trying to solve.

1. I can't sell oranges when apples are aske= d for.
2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing o= ptions like soliciting a prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a p= refix (this is equally more important for the protocol perspective itself as= a prefix is an important resource for the router).
<= br>
Please let me know which of the above points you t= hink are not valid.

Thank= s & Regards,
Naveen


On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org wrote:
Naveen,

Let me quote from RFC1958:

3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one.
   If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has=
   successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution u= nless
   there is a good technical reason not to.  Duplication of t= he same
   protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, wi= thout
   of course using this argument to reject improvements.


What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99t c= overed by existing solutions?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing prot= ocols.  I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and t= he same is covered in the draft.  And I see the cases where this draft s= olves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable.
= >
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router= using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very un= fair way of evaluating.  For that matter whether a PIO is included in R= S or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.  When thi= s draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a red= undant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol= standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is trea= ted as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overlapping o= ptions in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?  For t= hat matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?  Am I wrong in quo= ting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members= of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sugge= sted.  But not sure why they couldn't become standards.  It shows t= he need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep i= nventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please= suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing extens= ions to existing protocols.  But I request the forum and WG chairs to e= valuate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmai= l.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
> >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
> >> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org&= gt;
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>
> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> >>> HI Ole,
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org]
= > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
> >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com>
> >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draf= t-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L <= ;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ole,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<= /a>]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
> >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Temp= lin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmai= l.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>=
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification f= or draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fre= d L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ole,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employ= ees.org]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 P= M
> >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sa= rma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<= /a>>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent tha= t DHCPv6 is a format on wire.  But am sure it would consume more resour= ces at router to
> >> support
> >>>>>>>> DHCPv6
> >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite dif= ferent from SLAAC.
> >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under= the bridge. Since 2003.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, t= he water under the bridge refers to the
> >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the prot= ocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
> >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the*= chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
> >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-ba= sed protocol in addition to that. I don't
> >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the c= ommunity agree with it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid prov= iding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.<= br> > >>>>>
> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only= solution?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already sol= ved is a waste of time and resources.
> >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2= =80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
> >>>
> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only soluti= on to Prefix Delegation
> >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is ne= eded*. (I add this
> >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists o= ther non-protocol
> >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>
> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solutio= n, but there
> >> are some subtleties:
> >>
> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop= people
> >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simp= ly appear
> >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF p= rotocols
> >> are concerned.
> >
> > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on o= ur
> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. =46rom that document: > >
> > "10.  Prefix Delegation Services
> >
> >    Selection of prefix delegation services must be consi= dered according
> >    to specific use cases.  An example service is th= at offered by DHCPv6
> >    [RFC3633].  An alternative service based on IPv6= ND messaging has
> >    also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-= bit].
> >
> >    Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as prop= rietary IPAMs,
> >    [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
> >    [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]."
> >
> > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments b= ased
> > on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as<= br> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= .
>
>     Brian
>
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing
= > >> https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
> >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mis= sing
> >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix<= br> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of= an
> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any= sort
> >> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
> >>
> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/r= fc7788#section-6.3.4
> >>
> >>    Brian
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new= , has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talki= ng about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
> >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea o= f including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
> >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that i= s not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
> >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messag= e exchange, there are fewer messages
> >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is i= nteresting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. Y= ou will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend o= n each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there i= s a cross-dependence between the two
> >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait u= ntil the RS/RA exchange and check the
> >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tri= ps). Are you saying that that is no longer
> >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits a= re deprecated?
> >>>>
> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O b= its. PD is a protocol between routers.
> >>>
> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with th= at.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages= - two instead of four. That matters
> >>>>> a great deal on low end links.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
> >>>> Use header compression then.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question i= s moreso how
> >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendin= g everything in
> >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than r= equiring multiple
> >>> channel accesses.
> >>>
> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one= -nine" you get
> >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having t= o undergo
> >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say tha= t common data
> >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have thei= r CSMA protocols
> >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmis= sion.)
> >>>
> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoco= l semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they= are not different than DHCPv6.
> >>>>> That is the whole point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is v= aluable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for p= er-router
> >>>> delegation.
> >>>
> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-= to-one). In this
> >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is= indication that
> >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Ole
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9C= permissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved= that problem, would be a
> >> lot
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/v6ops
> >>>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> = v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=

= --Apple-Mail-79A26D6E-B86D-4EC4-AFC2-EF0B1B98CFD6-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 09:41:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89FE130DD3; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OD2d0tVPwc_j; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABD95130E3B; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id g26-v6so22946018lja.10; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:41:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CU88OuU8vJvE0OC7S/svE7e6hlcxhpyexFvnNSQwUG8=; b=uEToYnKA1QxHCSa5wTdl9TpcbL652HGHiXAUbVcMxczQRGntWtR22IiX85bVyeizeS jVE9/nDMbVteXCMqcRDbIVo0aePtiWCS1O4pLY1seI01eO6luQWTVknKMJZN0EXfO/UA uIpRuV3gJzkpstUnRBJ+jdHX+tNd0d54N+nXlI7vJc68sGtETbmk9sw1rqJ8YMp3Ww0X CyC0njGKD7bEpRMtnibrPCymyDrbbD/NsWI8fMa1+PszIWX2GCZycoO+PQQSBU2hWp+v SljU032TLyQsCljxmUEOLk9zxvLUmyka2qqOUktOQSFm16qSs3wgciaIWyOEwVnJF37m R8/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CU88OuU8vJvE0OC7S/svE7e6hlcxhpyexFvnNSQwUG8=; b=A5vVRBgSatVn0d636yA1rkjieHTYxkza0H7HquwAUyq47Tt0FqR5QFdQcvf7JLVNg2 qSzXKuW/uryOk129ROIFDsjgPVcwHr9sHhd6vlcUMDeGHpmFYybSplk6RLCIzPo+70w1 UkQEdFVAnL192yIBfVfe2pdTMfdMeb1m23KjJhrP41+jmFDUQoyOQVknrSJrb4sXgc9z XAtJPWyA7qR4cLVOatBvGB7islxlp/eNhOBoQaY8s6It56iXt0m6HgOHtvKAKiJ49ySB i38N/yZwG7Fl4gGrN9HurouNpl471Z5YYtDiSLDFpCS3Wpz9t6X2njuyNuoMKbla61w9 mmng== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKW1eruZLSWURRdAmBOQ43J+BBudNc0r/qdB0r1f1wBNvZN/hHq UpONXwxilHVGUExNq0oTkl0nzirWkbPzt9GN5g0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e4PfDDNTCL88NApKotgGa/LPj5YZMe487SRZLCY9MNxyyKzpJ2KWY+aO8rCV9ex++k8ClRU5xaHgEUW/tAvv4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:914b:: with SMTP id q11-v6mr8197037ljg.164.1542476472681; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:41:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:10:59 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , otroan@employees.org, v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003a8d84057adfca11" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:41:22 -0000 --0000000000003a8d84057adfca11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Brian, Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource allocation from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that missing transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to function even with proposed protocol? Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. Please correct me if am wrong. Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Naveen, > > > > The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA messages > requires > > a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namely, > DHCPv6). > > The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > requires a > > *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My feelin= g > is that once > > the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > DHCPv6, and > > some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > > > > I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol should be > DHCPv6, > > but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > DHCPv6? > > I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property that > RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can build > any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > transactional > integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocation. > So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > > Brian > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > > To: Brian E Carpenter > > Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Hello all, > > > > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d > the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft > solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable. > > > > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router > using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very > unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in R= S > or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this > draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a > redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > > > > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol > standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is > treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I > wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to ea= ch > other? > > > > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members > of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft > suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows th= e > need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep > inventing round-about solutions for the same. > > > > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please > suggest another change for that. > > > > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs = to > evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > > > > Yours, > > Naveen. > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > in line.. > > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >> Hi Brian, > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>> To: Templin (US), Fred L Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan otroan@employees.org>> > >>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org> > >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> > >>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>> HI Ole, > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >; > v6ops list > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >; > v6ops list > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >; > v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. But > am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>> support > >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge > refers to the > >>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation. > Is that what > >>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for > Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with i= t? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>> > >>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a wast= e > of time and resources. > >>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t hav= e a > satisfactory solution... > >>>> > >>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > Prefix Delegation > >>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (I > add this > >>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > non-protocol > >>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>> > >>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, but > there > >>> are some subtleties: > >>> > >>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop people > >>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply appe= ar > >>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF protoco= ls > >>> are concerned. > >> > >> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on our > >> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >> > >> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >> > >> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accordin= g > >> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHCPv= 6 > >> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > >> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >> > >> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAMs, > >> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >> > >> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments base= d > >> on these recent discussions? > > > > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as > > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= . > > > > Brian > > > >> > >> Thanks - Fred > >> > >>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > >>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > >>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>> > >>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different tha= n > =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 > protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 > option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true. > By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there are > fewer messages > >>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save a= round > trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-dependenc= e > between the two > >>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/RA > exchange and check the > >>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you saying > that that is no longer > >>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>> > >>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > protocol between routers. > >>>> > >>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>> > >>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead o= f > four. That matters > >>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>> > >>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso > how > >>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > everything in > >>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring > multiple > >>>> channel accesses. > >>>> > >>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" you > get > >>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to undergo > >>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common > data > >>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > protocols > >>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>> > >>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just > options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>> > >>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND i= s > also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router > >>>>> delegation. > >>>> > >>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). I= n > this > >>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indicatio= n > that > >>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers > >>>>> Ole > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions= =E2=80=9D of an > IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>> lot > >>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > --0000000000003a8d84057adfca11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Brian,

Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resour= ce allocation from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see = that missing transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC t= o function even with proposed protocol?

Al= so am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term coined = to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool.

Please correct me if am wrong.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Thanks & Regards,
Naveen

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com wrote:
<= /div>
On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred= L wrote:
> Naveen,
>
> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA message= s requires
> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namely, = DHCPv6).
> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but requ= ires a
> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My feeli= ng is that once
> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like DHC= Pv6, and
> some people have said that they do not want new protocols.
>
> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol should b= e DHCPv6,
> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like DH= CPv6?

I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property that
RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can build<= br> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of transactiona= l
integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocation. So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

>
> Thanks - Fred
>
> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>;= otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <= ;ipv6= @ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-p= refix-management-00.txt
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing pro= tocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where this dr= aft solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usabl= e.
>
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the route= r using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's v= ery unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.=C2=A0 = When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it= as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoco= l standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is tr= eated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overl= apping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?=C2= =A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I wr= ong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each o= ther?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected member= s of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sug= gested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become standards.=C2=A0 It= shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure peop= le keep inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pleas= e suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing exten= sions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the forum and WG chairs to= evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.c= arpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t;> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gma= il.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<= /a><mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan <<= a href=3D"mailto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"= >otroan@employees.org<mailto:otroan@employees.org>>
>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>
>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<= mailto:otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boe= ing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:= v6op= s@ietf.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draf= t-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L <= ;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boein= g.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org= <mailto:otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Tem= plin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>><= br> >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gma= il.com<mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ie= tf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<= ;mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fr= ed L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templ= in@boeing.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@emplo= yees.org<mailto:otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 = PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.s= arma@gmail.com<mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man W= G <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.= org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent tha= t DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more resou= rces at router to
>>> support
>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite dif= ferent from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under= the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, = the water under the bridge refers to the
>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the prot= ocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the*= chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-ba= sed protocol in addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the = community agree with it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid prov= iding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.=
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only= solution?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already sol= ved is a waste of time and resources.
>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don= =E2=80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
>>>>
>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only soluti= on to Prefix Delegation
>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is ne= eded*. (I add this
>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'= lists other non-protocol
>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>>
>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF sol= ution, but there
>>> are some subtleties:
>>>
>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually = stop people
>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simp= ly appear
>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as= the IETF protocols
>>> are concerned.
>>
>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on = our
>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that docume= nt:
>>
>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must be consi= dered according
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example service is th= at offered by DHCPv6
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based on IPv6= ND messaging has
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-= bit].
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as prop= rietary IPAMs,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>
>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments = based
>> on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals suc= h as
> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management<= br> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiio= n.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
>>
>> Thanks - Fred
>>
>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing
>>> https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mis= sing
>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix<= br> >>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of= an
>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in= any sort
>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>
>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html= /rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new= , has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you= are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea o= f including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", = then that is not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messag= e exchange, there are fewer messages
>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is i= nteresting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. = You will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depen= d on each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there = is a cross-dependence between the two
>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait = until the RS/RA exchange and check the
>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tri= ps). Are you saying that that is no longer
>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits a= re deprecated?
>>>>>
>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O = bits. PD is a protocol between routers.
>>>>
>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine wit= h that.
>>>>
>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages= - two instead of four. That matters
>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the quest= ion is moreso how
>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendin= g everything in
>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than r= equiring multiple
>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>
>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breake= r one-nine" you get
>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having = to undergo
>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say tha= t common data
>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have thei= r CSMA protocols
>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's = transmission.)
>>>>
>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoco= l semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they= are not different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is v= aluable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for= per-router
>>>>> delegation.
>>>>
>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-= to-one). In this
>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is= indication that
>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Ole
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9C= permissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solve= d that problem, would be a
>>> lot
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/v6ops
>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps
>

--0000000000003a8d84057adfca11-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 11:47:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9921252B7; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bldhbYnhuGC; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FD69124C04; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id r9-v6so12055800pgv.6; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:46:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=23drdYoYHEZ3loZFKz69ub2HV9i81EpHBRdHxVc1C/Y=; b=sxeNAAt/D5GMftknb3sjqzW1hlx9Llk0P6+UzrxCE9nzq2L3XV6JVAznSuMq23y+Ii Xn+0oDPrksa2w+thb9zmo4gq8PFWl34v4aAAw9zB7fnHubskdHj8vXeKpczIpAi0kNMF CwrwDsn74t4LH8uBP5ryf+t/2EkXTNj98rZhuQU11CCQtg2zTnd+wdQI08jggGuXgMWQ hxw6GhJj0bNwMm3EDb3mmeICAk+rJDgGyDVg5udgTq/SkHMwxFxky4ss7evmWaz+pe2n LCWiNUicTa6b0OYknWJ/DA9OW2vO1vWhLVr2v6ksmNQg8U4qrXE3ObhlOx0fqFB5b5Wm 7UpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=23drdYoYHEZ3loZFKz69ub2HV9i81EpHBRdHxVc1C/Y=; b=RTefSuK5GMal2KBS97AXrfNkOhXiI7K/363MaNjvaq+LctILKobdkHwidCiw2oJWne jNUJH8tdi10eex+JzjVsmAPoZv9iik8IVmMSFZuC5sOXmLACUdB36pFa4tfzOv6fy2dx F8mxU6IxYMCBOKHohuWZy8LteuENvE2pWXiqnSRbkivoCRa3KUEl6ZdhtCrMRRY2Q+fk 4q2vbtFcgBqmvkjIuqP7V0jdVuuSo5h1jrOh6RN3dfekfPVNS5uDSqfIKUxd3P3rGRwx 69tXlmkDi9Skb8vHbAIOPtdXiBXOmAaPNASIbM25n4yyH0fRbwbAVPvGgJTZ5NHT9X6W xiHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gK419Dzt7erNVlnMZhCeKowFOcm7oLaa2TL2096gjHz3VwSOI3n 04kiDKf89013RHhOsSJ0O8szvEEH X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eA2Syv/Gnd5fARx3Jlk2xFLyv862206PjXYkgrpUPEOK1zYTP2gdbNcXXt50E1OpxRJYI/Bg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:8b4b:: with SMTP id j72mr14525105pge.126.1542484018504; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t26-v6sm57221827pfa.158.2018.11.17.11.46.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Nov 2018 11:46:57 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , otroan@employees.org, v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 08:46:52 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 19:47:03 -0000 On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Hello Brian, >=20 > Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource allocat= ion > from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that missi= ng > transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to functio= n > even with proposed protocol? Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a prefix, which are totally different actions. Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You reall= y need some kind of two-phase commit. The standard RA doesn't have this problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an identifier for the box.) >=20 > Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justify. Why do that? Brian >=20 > Please correct me if am wrong. >=20 > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen >=20 > On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> Naveen, >>> >>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA messag= es >> requires >>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namely,= >> DHCPv6). >>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but >> requires a >>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My feel= ing >> is that once >>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like >> DHCPv6, and >>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. >>> >>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol should = be >> DHCPv6, >>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like >> DHCPv6? >> >> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property tha= t >> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can build= >> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of >> transactional >> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocatio= n. >> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Thanks - Fred >>> >>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM >>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; >> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing >> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality= and >> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draf= t >> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usab= le. >>> >>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the rout= er >> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's ve= ry >> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included i= n RS >> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this= >> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a= >> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>> >>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoc= ol >> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is= >> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there >> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the >> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? A= m I >> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to= each >> other? >>> >>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected membe= rs >> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft >> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows= the >> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people kee= p >> inventing round-about solutions for the same. >>> >>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, plea= se >> suggest another change for that. >>> >>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing >> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chai= rs to >> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Naveen. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote= : >>> in line.. >>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> Hi Brian, >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan > otroan@employees.org>> >>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < >> ipv6@ietf.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>> >>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>> HI Ole, >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli > naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG = >; >> v6ops list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ole, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli > naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG = >; >> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli > naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG = >; >> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. B= ut >> am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge= >> refers to the >>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation= =2E >> Is that what >>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for= >> Prefix Delegation >>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in >> addition to that. I don't >>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with= it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple >> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a wa= ste >> of time and resources. >>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t h= ave a >> satisfactory solution... >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to >> Prefix Delegation >>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (= I >> add this >>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other >> non-protocol >>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>>>> >>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, bu= t >> there >>>>> are some subtleties: >>>>> >>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peop= le >>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply ap= pear >>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF proto= cols >>>>> are concerned. >>>> >>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on ou= r >>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >>>> >>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services >>>> >>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accord= ing >>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DHC= Pv6 >>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has= >>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >>>> >>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAM= s, >>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>>> >>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments ba= sed >>>> on these recent discussions? >>> >>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such a= s >>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the >>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management= >>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussii= on. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks - Fred >>>> >>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort= >>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>>>> >>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different t= han >> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 >> protocol proposals? >>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6= >> option in RS/RA messages >>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true= =2E >> By including both the IPv6 >>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there ar= e >> fewer messages >>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save= a round >> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-depende= nce >> between the two >>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/R= A >> exchange and check the >>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you sayin= g >> that that is no longer >>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a >> protocol between routers. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead= of >> four. That matters >>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>>> >>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is mores= o >> how >>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending >> everything in >>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring= >> multiple >>>>>> channel accesses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" y= ou >> get >>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to under= go >>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common= >> data >>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA >> protocols >>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just= >> options in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not >> different than DHCPv6. >>>>>>>> That is the whole point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND= is >> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-route= r >>>>>>> delegation. >>>>>> >>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one).= In >> this >>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indicat= ion >> that >>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensio= ns=E2=80=9D of an >> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a >>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >> >=20 From nobody Sat Nov 17 13:18:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7BD1292AD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:18:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.88.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154248953097.15821.8723195568827361780.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:18:50 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Milestones changed for v6ops WG X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 21:18:51 -0000 Changed milestone "Recommendations for DNS in an IPv6 Network", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "recommendations regarding the use of DNS64", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone, set description to "Recommendations regarding the use of DNS64". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/about/ From nobody Sat Nov 17 13:53:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C83D130DCB for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:53:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eSchUDCmfF4k for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092064036.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.64.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A70612D4EB for ; 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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT118; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT118: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT118; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT118; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 5C40uhdLxljEh6uJRkbxrx3aH8iChkuEl+ljVcOxqF7hv7bDsOAc766lnk+uYLrh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29374C3B82BBF20A20613041AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 72548ac5-5730-49f1-4a91-08d64cd71c4b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 21:53:29.4498 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT118 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 21:53:37 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29374C3B82BBF20A20613041AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: Hi Warren, The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. W Khaled From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker > Cc: Khaled Omar >; IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take yo= ur topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don= 't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list. This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this. W ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --_000_HE1PR0402MB29374C3B82BBF20A20613041AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion?

Best Regards
Khaled Omar

From: Warren Kumari <war= ren@kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter
 


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wr= ote:

Hi Warren,

  

The protocol is under development, = but does this means that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-o= nly hosts and vice versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 


We al= ready have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have not = demonstrated interest in your proposal. 
Bob Hinden told you that = IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the= same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

I understand that you believe = that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any support for this= in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be frustrating f= or you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going  to change that.

W


 

Khaled

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter<= /u>

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:



> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and a= sked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations= (v6ops@ietf.org). = I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this = list.

 

This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certain= ly doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said = that this is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this= .

 

W

 

----------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


 

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was = obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf



--
I don't think the execution is r= elevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf
--_000_HE1PR0402MB29374C3B82BBF20A20613041AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:00:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996CD12D4F1 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:00:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id siZPNodqqhHz for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48EDA1294D7 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:00:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 811901BC37 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:00:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:00:28 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: > Check this out. OK, you'll have to explain what on earth it's supposed to be. What it = definitely isn't is a means of compressing 32 bits down to 5 bits = without loss. From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:24:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C2A12D4E8 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZ8Um5XcA2pD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092067044.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.67.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7161128C65 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=oUS8pGZ4Hxgtzv0vG2zr2llbO/6tmL9pLRpykMFmzfQ=; b=VGvpjuaISXEMeSDswqsdqksOKt727M6ijo3axKw6c3b8yfNTo3DWRwXUgtwjCsMGzIcVXSebGEYhP99PSq7QIIy2FmdpcmDp8YfCxJu2N3eaLpuKQTwndEKS0NPYQi7g00XMdma/Xk1gIEg8czo7O8cEwZuKfYMckQG10Oz3P3fAI4CfJX7au02BpQK5K+HMwHdfdVC6HUO6OI9JMwHBde6n7LOUz6J5QkwQO9GTabyGmY0JQ29/rnNWW8wZIFWsKciDq4xREYE1IZsFLLNGvGHo3mGS2mp7ClVW24vpAeCvEqlQi3SmSNrfgoj9+/ekqyXxYfLlfgcXDGV/Zy5d/g== Received: from AM5EUR02FT005.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.53) by AM5EUR02HT008.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:41 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.58) by AM5EUR02FT005.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.173) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:41 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:41 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRc= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> , <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:FC0BB07C7DBD2DC3E11427B4B987193EE5B6A6B89E019CBEF3CA07C2CB0AB6D7; UpperCasedChecksum:29B9FFB64A2F09B9E6BA437FC067A48E3D1BAD99E2770E5FE894BB38A8058025; SizeAsReceived:7651; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [ra8BeECcJ92F+pxzvgULBCZYe/CiifIy] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT008; 6:HQdwFTU3ZEw82Aw59PgiY+T3tzOF/Rm1mxP1QiyzmKJjbXHAvPc4O7L+9UXvwcFqU6FtYlCyO6Ld6KA2Uc48YkDlr025XEJyLZMRmsRtd1eBWZ+J14D3lo4d7nQXLQxyqLgotp+1dJ6Yx3d/VQ8xQELq1VqqIJvkzR2IEzqSQZVnAOHf7NpZoiDlKpr860RE15ERIoo/aIxgW+qJaiLTmTSAlHxTZe9MNODyeUK8cpEFZZSzQeAPEv70HQk6wpE3OT/S/0hEkuATUDWZVz7khOD4wx5XayMJe0KYYku2wTtj4WloRV4uDMo5wivXCwzIoQi2Wo2/26r/a6ES7l0ZzRH50J6guxNrstiRUiTZcI7ZFCw+RN6wjbZ1LJoMfq3HyF1ZLxmEdGRxnq4E7zY6J/YPIvT6o5Ba41WIOE8acu9nT7VAXi5TCM0QxQLNeaWig+LLjwSwHFbp9CjVaTzv0g==; 5:7MEOTJ6aqeC7bW9Coy0rnetm4DiZJCwo0gJcR1MfrQRQP+4ohlzVk/X6xoSom1ZerCKBdWwdWeLZZYZSyggSMbqbicDyikVJ0k2CzvunYZ+HWK7x5FAw5kpYxS7J01XmWYDo0mj0kxelPzTxKeuK+yvqPug3q11BgHNbPnMf52Q=; 7:2G1hxKN6LlrVa8FT4Psxk+/UFoEr8S3F5EJNMJNBW/IQdtr+EVApf7JwlrukpnBM57V46YqPMBqxhZKIPdi84RZSmxSO8FQIkFiqAbFpAQntt3xKpEAlLMDYA0WkSVfwbGhSpI635x5E3kR14Pa0Tw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT008; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT008: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT008; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT008; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Wej9YUoCn51sh/uqcPgrIVtgWTKxtITKUd0qWGFOqEn/gv9GlJPD6SqQn2XaOp7I Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB293719FBB6648DF71AB2FB71AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f9296131-9b62-4ba9-fbd6-08d64cdb77c0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 22:24:40.8597 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT008 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:46 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293719FBB6648DF71AB2FB71AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The input of the algorithm is 32-binary bits and can be extended to mor eee= ee than that, one case is that the output is 5-binary bits with different o= utput voltages, 0 can be represented in 10 different voltages and 1 can be = represented in 10 different voltages, that means the output can represent 2= 0^5 different values which covers the 2^32, the input can be decoded from t= he 5-bits easily using the table using only the 32 bits and not all the 35 = bits. Khaled ________________________________ From: v6ops on behalf of Simon Hobson Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 AM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > Check this out. OK, you'll have to explain what on earth it's supposed to be. What it defin= itely isn't is a means of compressing 32 bits down to 5 bits without loss. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_HE1PR0402MB293719FBB6648DF71AB2FB71AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The input of the algorithm is 32-binary bits and can be extended to mor eee= ee than that, one case is that the output is 5-binary bits with different o= utput voltages, 0 can be represented in 10 different voltages and 1 can be = represented in 10 different voltages, that means the output can represent 20^5 different values which covers the= 2^32, the input can be decoded from the 5-bits easily using the table usin= g only the 32 bits and not all the 35 bits.

Khaled
From: v6ops <v6ops-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk><= br> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 AM
To: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wr= ote:

> Check this out.

OK, you'll have to explain what on earth it's supposed to be. What it defin= itely isn't is a means of compressing 32 bits down to 5 bits without loss.<= br>
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293719FBB6648DF71AB2FB71AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:24:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F91128C65 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCBDzHDo8ANW for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 093AE128CFD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1542493480; x=1543098280; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=hizfMEW1VL7f4P1J+txr0s bDtt92977gTKj7Aw0DUS4=; b=Q5amhz3GE1OCUDc6jZ4iFDaas4vjy7TYemzbAi lNHVOl9ZUBPbFhU0P6cBa6SZcegWc+kgS5ZWX1fbTnrmVLRrz0gfBybehAObNVdv VwsZ151hWl67SOwzEvU8Xet/UUT38ESHPf6H/AYynxThjizqlnkpr4GjGr9jGrGD yNrlQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:24:40 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:24:39 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.130] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005983212.msg for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:24:39 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:20b7:e9ff:21ce:e117 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.130] X-MDArrival-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:24:39 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185925af61=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:24:35 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Khaled Omar , Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: <973B856E-1919-47C1-BA5B-311AB5B05E55@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3625341875_421979402" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:24:49 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3625341875_421979402 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. =20 I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. =20 You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=E2=80=99m not saying= is perfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific cas= e, you are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that = is there to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in th= e right direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you ke= ep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar =20 From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar w= rote: Hi Warren, =20 The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? =20 =20 We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal.=20 Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him.= =20 =20 I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. =20 W =20 =20 =20 Khaled =20 From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker Cc: Khaled Omar ; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker wrot= e: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar wr= ote: >=20 > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic elsewhere. Th= e same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentl= e with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn= 't belong on this list. =20 This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. =20 The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. =20 W =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. 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Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > allocation > > from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that missi= ng > > transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to functio= n > > even with proposed protocol? > > Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited > unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a > prefix, which are totally different actions. > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicited and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my current knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is received from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the prefix unsolicited. So, since both node and router will have context of prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF for nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of this in next version of draft. > > Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You reall= y > need some kind of two-phase commit. Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of losing a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more delay in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as the retry mechanism is in place. I would rather say that the resource is never lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocated even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will anyway retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated prefix. The standard RA doesn't have this > problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is > repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn't want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed in this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > > (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > identifier for the box.) > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can log using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our router. > > > > > Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > > coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. > > "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a > normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justify. > Why do that? > > Brian > > > > > Please correct me if am wrong. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>> Naveen, > >>> > >>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA messag= es > >> requires > >>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namely, > >> DHCPv6). > >>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >> requires a > >>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > feeling > >> is that once > >>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > >> DHCPv6, and > >>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>> > >>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol should = be > >> DHCPv6, > >>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > >> DHCPv6? > >> > >> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property tha= t > >> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can build > >> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >> transactional > >> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocatio= n. > >> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>> Thanks - Fred > >>> > >>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > ipv6@ietf.org> > >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>> > >>> Hello all, > >>> > >>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > >> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality > and > >> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draf= t > >> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > usable. > >>> > >>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the rout= er > >> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's ve= ry > >> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included i= n > RS > >> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this > >> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a > >> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>> > >>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoc= ol > >> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is > >> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > >> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > >> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? A= m > I > >> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to > each > >> other? > >>> > >>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected membe= rs > >> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft > >> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows > the > >> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people kee= p > >> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>> > >>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, plea= se > >> suggest another change for that. > >>> > >>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > chairs to > >> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>> > >>> Yours, > >>> Naveen. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote= : > >>> in line.. > >>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>> Hi Brian, > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > >> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>; > >> v6ops list > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>; > >> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>; > >> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. B= ut > >> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge > >> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation= . > >> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for > >> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with > it? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > >> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > waste > >> of time and resources. > >>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t h= ave a > >> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > >> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (= I > >> add this > >>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >> non-protocol > >>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, bu= t > >> there > >>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peop= le > >>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > appear > >>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > protocols > >>>>> are concerned. > >>>> > >>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on ou= r > >>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>> > >>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>> > >>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > according > >>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > DHCPv6 > >>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has > >>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>> > >>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAM= s, > >>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>> > >>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments > based > >>>> on these recent discussions? > >>> > >>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such a= s > >>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > >>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > >>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > discussiion. > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>> > >>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing > >>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort > >>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>> > >>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > than > >> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 > >> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 > >> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true= . > >> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there ar= e > >> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save= a round > >> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > cross-dependence > >> between the two > >>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/R= A > >> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you sayin= g > >> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > >> protocol between routers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead > of > >> four. That matters > >>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is mores= o > >> how > >>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >> everything in > >>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring > >> multiple > >>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" y= ou > >> get > >>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to under= go > >>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common > >> data > >>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > >> protocols > >>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just > >> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND > is > >> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-route= r > >>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). > In > >> this > >>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > indication > >> that > >>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensio= ns=E2=80=9D of an > >> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> v6ops mailing list > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --000000000000685c7e057af41540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Brian,

Please find comments inline.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Bri= an E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com wrot= e:
On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kott= apalli wrote:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resourc= e allocation
> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that miss= ing
> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to functi= on
> even with proposed protocol?

Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism
there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously.
In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited<= br> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a
prefix, which are totally different actions.

Naveen] Am not yet clear on why= we should distinguish between unsolicited and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we ne= ed to distinguish like that?=C2=A0 As per my current knowledge any prefix w= ill be allocated or assigned only when RS is received from node and didn= 9;t come across an use case of a router assigning the prefix unsolicited.= =C2=A0 So, since both node and router will have context of prefix assigned,= we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF for nonces included i= n unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of this in next version o= f draft.

Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice
anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You really<= br> need some kind of two-phase commit.

Naveen] Do we really need this? There are eq= ual amount of chances of losing a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A tw= o way commit will induce more delay in the resource allocation procedure an= d it might not be required as the retry mechanism is in place.=C2=A0 I woul= d rather say that the resource is never lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from r= outer perspective the resource is allocated even if the message doesn't= reach the solicited node.=C2=A0 A device will anyway retry and a router wi= ll always sends a response with the same allocated prefix.

The standard RA doesn't have this
problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter.

Na= veen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn= 9;t want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?

(A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential
in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or
logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you nee= d an
identifier for the box.)
Nave= en] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers configuration a= llows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can log using the mac = address of the device.=C2=A0 We too do the same thing in our router.
<= div dir=3D"auto">

>
> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term<= br> > coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool.
"Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" ar= e all fundamentally the
same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a
normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a
management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justify= .
Why do that?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
> Please correct me if am wrong.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Naveen
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>> Naveen,
>>>
>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA= messages
>> requires
>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (= namely,
>> DHCPv6).
>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option = but
>> requires a
>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. = My feeling
>> is that once
>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much = like
>> DHCPv6, and
>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols.
>>>
>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol = should be
>> DHCPv6,
>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot= like
>> DHCPv6?
>>
>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property= that
>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we c= an build
>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of
>> transactional
>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource alloc= ation.
>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>
>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:nave= en.sarma@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>;
>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" t= arget=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@= ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other exis= ting
>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the func= tionality and
>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where = this draft
>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not = usable.
>>>
>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from t= he router
>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it&= #39;s very
>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a PIO is i= ncluded in RS
>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.=C2=A0 = When this
>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it = as a
>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>>>
>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing= protocol
>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itsel= f is
>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't = there
>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to t= he
>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and D= HCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I
>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocol= s to each
>> other?
>>>
>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respecte= d members
>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current dr= aft
>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become standar= ds.=C2=A0 It shows the
>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people= keep
>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>
>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draf= t, please
>> suggest another change for that.
>>>
>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providi= ng
>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the forum an= d WG chairs to
>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Naveen.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>&g= t; wrote:
>>> in line..
>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>= ]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>= ; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org<mailto:=
>> otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>; 6man WG <
>> ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6= @ietf.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>=
>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man= WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@= ietf.org>>;
>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fr= ed L <
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mail= to:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote= :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 = AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>=
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man= WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@= ietf.org>>;
>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin = (US), Fred L <
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mail= to:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote= :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 201= 8 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer no= referrer" target=3D"_blank">Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>=
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man= WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@= ietf.org>>;
>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some ex= tent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But
>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to
>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with = SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is q= uite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is wat= er under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this c= omment, the water under the bridge
>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as = the protocol for prefix delegation.
>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 = is *the* chosen protocol for
>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IP= v6 ND-based protocol in
>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but wo= uld the community agree with it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to av= oid providing multiple
>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one = and only solution?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is alr= eady solved is a waste
>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where= we don=E2=80=99t have a
>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and onl= y solution to
>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protoc= ol is needed*. (I
>> add this
>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdh= ost' lists other
>> non-protocol
>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegat= ion.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current = IETF solution, but
>> there
>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't a= ctually stop people
>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which wo= uld simply appear
>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism a= s far as the IETF protocols
>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message b= ased on our
>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) wh= ich we
>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From tha= t document:
>>>>
>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must = be considered according
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example servi= ce is that offered by DHCPv6
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based= on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-ex= clusive-bit].
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such= as proprietary IPAMs,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang].&= quot;
>>>>
>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adju= stments based
>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>
>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, propo= sals such as
>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD = as the
>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-man= agement
>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different di= scussiion.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>
>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while develo= ping
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-mana= gement-07
>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting= for missing
>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a= prefix
>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the = edges of an
>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something si= milar in any sort
>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of somet= hing new, has to be different than
>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping",= are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that th= e idea of including a DHCPv6
>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping= ", then that is not entirely true.
>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a singl= e message exchange, there are
>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in its= elf is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as inter= esting. You will not save a round
>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other.<= br> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits wher= e there is a cross-dependence
>> between the two
>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed = to wait until the RS/RA
>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two r= ound trips). Are you saying
>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&= O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the = M&O bits. PD is a
>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am = fine with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer = messages - two instead of
>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
>>>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - t= he question is moreso
>> how
>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links= , sending
>> everything in
>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collision= s than requiring
>> multiple
>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker= , breaker one-nine" you
>> get
>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without= having to undergo
>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to= say that common
>> data
>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do h= ave their CSMA
>> protocols
>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone els= e's transmission.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same= protocol semantics, just
>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv= 6 - they are not
>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why t= hat is valuable. ND is
>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-r= outer
>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unica= st (one-to-one). In
>> this
>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS me= ssage is indication
>> that
>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with = =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an
>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a
>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000685c7e057af41540-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 10:16:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA6A129BBF; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:16:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kpm5Ib6VpCBR; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 688FE126CC7; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.187] (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C3E2FECBECF; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 18:16:11 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B1DDDEA8-264B-4729-8BA1-8A3BF54D4484 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:16:08 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7374C275-3FF0-4A5B-9E9E-4D9AA1220B63@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> To: Naveen Kottapalli Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 18:16:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B1DDDEA8-264B-4729-8BA1-8A3BF54D4484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Naveen, I don=E2=80=99t understand the problem description below, nor why it would r= equire a different solution than any of those we already have.=20 Does anyone else understand and can translate? Cheers=20 Ole > On 18 Nov 2018, at 18:51, Naveen Kottapalli wrote= : >=20 > Hello Ole, >=20 > Please find comments inline. >=20 > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen >=20 >=20 >> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole Troan > Hi Naveen, >>=20 >> While the purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not b= e for the rest of us.=20 >>=20 >> Can you please describe the problem you are trying to solve? >=20 > Naveen] Below is the description of problems that are being tried to solve= : > 1. Solicit any prefix of pre configured length using RS / RA. We can have i= t implemented in both of our CPE and router. But the solution wouldn't be co= mpliant or interoperable. > 2. Some of the prefixes that were assigned to hosts by our router are ling= ering though the host interface is brought down and the prefix isn't used an= ymore. > 3. Hosts during mobility are losing the existing ongoing traffic sessions d= ue to prefix change. This is because when the gateway detects mobility to a d= ifferent tunnel the existing session will be cleared and a new session entry= is created. During this process there is no guarantee that the same prefix w= ill be assigned back to the device. >>=20 >> Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your problem?= >=20 > Naveen] All the prefixes were assigned using SLAAC and there is no solutio= n till date to solicit or release a specific prefix. It's not just specific p= refix, but the only existing solution to get a non /64 prefix is only throug= h DHCPv6, which can't be done in the CPE. >>=20 >> Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem d= escription I am hoping for. >=20 > Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use case where prefix length less than 6= 4. I see this as more like soliciting a prefix pool. All the host / CPE doe= s is soliciting a prefix of desired length by including existing options in R= S. But why a host or CPE soliciting a prefix (which is already done by them= ) without introducing new message types or options should be a problem? >>=20 >> Cheers=20 >> Ole >>=20 >>> On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli wro= te: >>>=20 >>> Hello Ole, >>>=20 >>> Following are the things that am trying to solve. >>>=20 >>> 1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked for. >>> 2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a p= refix of certain length; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equally mo= re important for the protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an important= resource for the router). >>>=20 >>> Please let me know which of the above points you think are not valid. >>>=20 >>> Thanks & Regards, >>> Naveen >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan >>> Naveen, >>>>=20 >>>> Let me quote from RFC1958: >>>>=20 >>>> 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. >>>> If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has >>>> successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unles= s >>>> there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same >>>> protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without= >>>> of course using this argument to reject improvements. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80= =99t covered by existing solutions? >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ole >>>>=20 >>>> > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli w= rote: >>>> >=20 >>>> > Hello all, >>>> >=20 >>>> > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing pr= otocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and the= same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft solves r= eal time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable. >>>> >=20 >>>> > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the rout= er using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very u= nfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in RS or= not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this draft s= olves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a redundant to= another standard, while actually it is not. >>>> >=20 >>>> > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoc= ol standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is tr= eated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overlappin= g options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices? For tha= t matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am I wrong in quoting th= at both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other? >>>> >=20 >>>> > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected membe= rs of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sug= gested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows the need= of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep inventin= g round-about solutions for the same. >>>> >=20 >>>> > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, plea= se suggest another change for that. >>>> >=20 >>>> > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing exte= nsions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs to eval= uate this draft fairly and technically. >>>> >=20 >>>> > Yours, >>>> > Naveen. >>>> >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> > in line.. >>>> > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> > > Hi Brian, >>>> > >=20 >>>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >>>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>>> > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan >>>> > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >>>> > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> > >>> HI Ole, >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>> > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-s= laac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Ole, >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>> > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Fred, >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>> > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >>>> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-nave= en-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> Fred, >>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. B= ut am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>>> > >> support >>>> > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridg= e refers to the >>>> > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegatio= n. Is that what >>>> > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> Sure. >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol fo= r Prefix Delegation >>>> > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in add= ition to that. I don't >>>> > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wit= h it? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple e= quivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a w= aste of time and resources. >>>> > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t h= ave a satisfactory solution... >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to P= refix Delegation >>>> > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (= I add this >>>> > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other no= n-protocol >>>> > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, b= ut there >>>> > >> are some subtleties: >>>> > >> >>>> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peo= ple >>>> > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply a= ppear >>>> > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF prot= ocols >>>> > >> are concerned. >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on o= ur >>>> > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >>>> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. =46rom that document: >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered accor= ding >>>> > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by DH= CPv6 >>>> > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging ha= s >>>> > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPA= Ms, >>>> > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >>>> > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments b= ased >>>> > > on these recent discussions? >>>> >=20 >>>> > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such a= s >>>> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the >>>> > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management= >>>> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussii= on. >>>> >=20 >>>> > Brian >>>> >=20 >>>> > >=20 >>>> > > Thanks - Fred >>>> > >=20 >>>> > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>>> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >>>> > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing= >>>> > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>>> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >>>> > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sor= t >>>> > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>>> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Brian >>>> > >> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different t= han =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6= protocol proposals? >>>> > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv= 6 option in RS/RA messages >>>> > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely tru= e. By including both the IPv6 >>>> > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there a= re fewer messages >>>> > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sav= e a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a cross-depend= ence between the two >>>> > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/= RA exchange and check the >>>> > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you sayi= ng that that is no longer >>>> > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a p= rotocol between routers. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instea= d of four. That matters >>>> > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>> > >>>> Use header compression then. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is more= so how >>>> > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending every= thing in >>>> > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requirin= g multiple >>>> > >>> channel accesses. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" y= ou get >>>> > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to unde= rgo >>>> > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that commo= n data >>>> > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA p= rotocols >>>> > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, jus= t options in ND instead of DHCP. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not diff= erent than DHCPv6. >>>> > >>>>> That is the whole point. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. N= D is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-router= >>>> > >>>> delegation. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one)= . In this >>>> > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is indica= tion that >>>> > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Thanks - Fred >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Cheers >>>> > >>>> Ole >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Cheers >>>> > >>>>>> Ole >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensi= ons=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would b= e a >>>> > >> lot >>>> > >>>>>> more >>>> > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>> > >>>>>>>> Ole >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >>> v6ops mailing list >>>> > >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> > >>> >>>> > >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > v6ops mailing list >>>> > v6ops@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>=20 --Apple-Mail-B1DDDEA8-264B-4729-8BA1-8A3BF54D4484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nav= een,

I don=E2=80=99t unders= tand the problem description below, nor why it would require a different sol= ution than any of those we already have. 

Does anyone else understand and can translate?

Cheers 
O= le

On 18 Nov 2018, at 18:51, Naveen Kottapalli <= ;naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wr= ote:

Hello Ole,

Please find c= omments inline.

Thanks &a= mp; Regards,
Naveen


On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org wrote:
Hi Naveen,

While the p= urpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not be for the rest= of us. 

Can you pleas= e describe the problem you are trying to solve?
Naveen] Below is the description of problems that a= re being tried to solve:
1. Solicit any prefix of pre= configured length using RS / RA. We can have it implemented in both of our C= PE and router. But the solution wouldn't be compliant or interoperable.
2. Some of the prefixes that were assigned to hosts by ou= r router are lingering though the host interface is brought down and the pre= fix isn't used anymore.
3. Hosts during mobility are l= osing the existing ongoing traffic sessions due to prefix change. This is be= cause when the gateway detects mobility to a different tunnel the existing s= ession will be cleared and a new session entry is created. During this proce= ss there is no guarantee that the same prefix will be assigned back to the d= evice.

Can you please describe how existing solutions do not s= olve your problem?
Nav= een] All the prefixes were assigned using SLAAC and there is no solution til= l date to solicit or release a specific prefix. It's not just specific prefi= x, but the only existing solution to get a non /64 prefix is only through DH= CPv6, which can't be done in the CPE.

Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80= =9D is not the problem description I am hoping for.
=
Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use case whe= re prefix length less than 64. I see this as more like soliciting a prefix p= ool.  All the host / CPE does is soliciting a prefix of desired length b= y including existing options in RS.  But why a host or CPE soliciting a= prefix (which is already done by them) without introducing new message type= s or options should be a problem?
Cheers 
Ole

On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma= @gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ole,

Following are the things that am trying to solve.

1. I can't sell oranges when apples are aske= d for.
2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing o= ptions like soliciting a prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a p= refix (this is equally more important for the protocol perspective itself as= a prefix is an important resource for the router).
<= br>
Please let me know which of the above points you t= hink are not valid.

Thank= s & Regards,
Naveen


On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan <otroan= @employees.org wrote:
Naveen,

Let me quote from RFC1958:

3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one.
   If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has=
   successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution u= nless
   there is a good technical reason not to.  Duplication of t= he same
   protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, wi= thout
   of course using this argument to reject improvements.


What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99t c= overed by existing solutions?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sa= rma@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing prot= ocols.  I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality and t= he same is covered in the draft.  And I see the cases where this draft s= olves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable.
= >
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the router= using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very un= fair way of evaluating.  For that matter whether a PIO is included in R= S or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.  When thi= s draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a red= undant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protocol= standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is trea= ted as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overlapping o= ptions in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?  For t= hat matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?  Am I wrong in quo= ting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each other?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected members= of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sugge= sted.  But not sure why they couldn't become standards.  It shows t= he need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep i= nventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, please= suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing extens= ions to existing protocols.  But I request the forum and WG chairs to e= valuate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
> >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@b= oeing.com>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> > >> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <<= a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla= nk">ipv6@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen= -slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>
> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> >>> HI Ole,
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.o= rg]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
> >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.T= emplin@boeing.com>
> >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@g= mail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draf= t-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L <= ;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ole,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@emp= loyees.org]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
> >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen= .sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list &= lt;v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification f= or draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fre= d L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ole,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:ot= roan@employees.org]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 P= M
> >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6= ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent tha= t DHCPv6 is a format on wire.  But am sure it would consume more resour= ces at router to
> >> support
> >>>>>>>> DHCPv6
> >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite dif= ferent from SLAAC.
> >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under= the bridge. Since 2003.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, t= he water under the bridge refers to the
> >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the prot= ocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
> >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the*= chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
> >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-ba= sed protocol in addition to that. I don't
> >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the c= ommunity agree with it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid prov= iding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail.<= br> > >>>>>
> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only= solution?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already sol= ved is a waste of time and resources.
> >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2= =80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
> >>>
> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only soluti= on to Prefix Delegation
> >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is ne= eded*. (I add this
> >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists o= ther non-protocol
> >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>
> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solutio= n, but there
> >> are some subtleties:
> >>
> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop= people
> >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simp= ly appear
> >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF p= rotocols
> >> are concerned.
> >
> > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on o= ur
> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. =46rom that document: > >
> > "10.  Prefix Delegation Services
> >
> >    Selection of prefix delegation services must be consi= dered according
> >    to specific use cases.  An example service is th= at offered by DHCPv6
> >    [RFC3633].  An alternative service based on IPv6= ND messaging has
> >    also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-= bit].
> >
> >    Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as prop= rietary IPAMs,
> >    [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
> >    [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]."
> >
> > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments b= ased
> > on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as<= br> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiion= .
>
>     Brian
>
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing
= > >> h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
> >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mis= sing
> >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix<= br> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of= an
> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any= sort
> >> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
> >>
> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
> >> https://tools.ietf= .org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
> >>
> >>    Brian
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new= , has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talki= ng about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
> >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea o= f including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
> >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that i= s not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
> >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messag= e exchange, there are fewer messages
> >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is i= nteresting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. Y= ou will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend o= n each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there i= s a cross-dependence between the two
> >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait u= ntil the RS/RA exchange and check the
> >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tri= ps). Are you saying that that is no longer
> >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits a= re deprecated?
> >>>>
> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O b= its. PD is a protocol between routers.
> >>>
> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with th= at.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages= - two instead of four. That matters
> >>>>> a great deal on low end links.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
> >>>> Use header compression then.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question i= s moreso how
> >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendin= g everything in
> >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than r= equiring multiple
> >>> channel accesses.
> >>>
> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one= -nine" you get
> >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having t= o undergo
> >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say tha= t common data
> >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have thei= r CSMA protocols
> >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmis= sion.)
> >>>
> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoco= l semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they= are not different than DHCPv6.
> >>>>> That is the whole point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is v= aluable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for p= er-router
> >>>> delegation.
> >>>
> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-= to-one). In this
> >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is= indication that
> >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Ole
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9C= permissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that solved= that problem, would be a
> >> lot
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/v6ops

= --Apple-Mail-B1DDDEA8-264B-4729-8BA1-8A3BF54D4484-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 11:34:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D61130934; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDMnhshkgorn; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x443.google.com (mail-pf1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::443]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625D5126DBF; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x443.google.com with SMTP id 64so9285312pfr.9; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uxkv1+F+215RK+cJLSm+MAFFEnOCQhctc9SUhT5L8YI=; b=Eh+sOaznaO7lT2AxGtXI+E+O+R5aLXsBw8DSX1u00Bk1Bxrh+Z0bNNcQEIvrunjfo7 NlqI/dMPG3JtCfpgcHIU1/fS6KCJmbAP808fccbPNc/NbcgKofG6xABqPcABHrUC6k6c Lh6TJe6Qc02KEILguUbJZhDzMgPO1fQgkVqiaHn0XW26usOt/mW+sBE4iWxUXI+yNbYn +Z3Tb1l83OPlHPagThIP9Cxp7KAsEYRy0U1TiXHlTQdxeYxC4kbxMHC+dAjDKlTt2u77 mV5eDTAUmlzvfaQ6I8dBjaKek+s59Dujr4VV9nof1MnCpiyqdD5UjLPLCs4+4P9qwuHu GTqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uxkv1+F+215RK+cJLSm+MAFFEnOCQhctc9SUhT5L8YI=; b=Pr4ZXbPOzcHh6DYYKn1eNfz8Dq5FN52f6Uv9qptDe1YpBVwqaLXzRfTkre02HXymUI A63ah6tpLLsbXJLwoVI4J3N8KACfXuqU4g3BfcJuftIRux/EFHd6RDIjilln1QUXcV7h nciCIMZF6G0zmjQ+dT3zz8BFbch/yNXsXPjp8lvWayOBppauEX6S6gfS9XAb/IqKOqz5 wf9hae7RSpwxl7BuF1A19OjL9JuD1NZEFzagzY1q7dtFJZPMMAJY0NNfiFLRV4OtW1qH C3zDxett9Bf905ZL9KTRkpfl8J1odu90kjJSHNZBF8lgYpY4m1Tn8wsq53hty7dk8bul LGBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIvImcfDR/rS3ejbOHqrgEQjj6bKTWt1ZZ1MrMeQGrlKby/UJ7o /63AAVMa2npwZ8tQiAebQ+/O5Glm X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eicy1HqXHo0HROyIS6fp9qKNudlyA0GD9ixuhzfjeXzf8a6Asp2lBriqrZO80Nz6fNLZkLUw== X-Received: by 2002:a62:4251:: with SMTP id p78-v6mr19963848pfa.72.1542569651405; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w136sm19577781pfd.169.2018.11.18.11.34.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:34:10 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , otroan@employees.org, v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:34:06 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:34:16 -0000 On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Hello Brian, >=20 > Please find comments inline. >=20 > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: >>> Hello Brian, >>> >>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource >> allocation >>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that mis= sing >>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to funct= ion >>> even with proposed protocol? >> >> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism >> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. >> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited= >> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a >> prefix, which are totally different actions. >> >=20 > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicit= ed > and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my curr= ent > knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is rece= ived > from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the > prefix unsolicited. =20 Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or by DHCPv6-ND. > So, since both node and router will have context of > prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF f= or > nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of t= his > in next version of draft. But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. >> >> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice >> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You re= ally >> need some kind of two-phase commit. >=20 >=20 > Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of lo= sing > a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more del= ay > in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as th= e > retry mechanism is in place. =20 A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of four messages. > I would rather say that the resource is never > lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocat= ed > even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will an= yway > retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated= > prefix. But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement for safe resource allocation. >=20 > The standard RA doesn't have this >> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is >> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. >> >=20 > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn'= t > want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in > this draft. What kind of difference do you see? As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different statement. >> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential >> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or >> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 >> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an >> identifier for the box.) >> > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can= log > using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > router. /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested. Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. Brian >=20 >> >>> >>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term= >>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. >> >> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the >> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a= >> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justif= y. >> Why do that? >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Please correct me if am wrong. >>> >>> Thanks & Regards, >>> Naveen >>> >>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>> Naveen, >>>>> >>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA mess= ages >>>> requires >>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namel= y, >>>> DHCPv6). >>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but >>>> requires a >>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My >> feeling >>>> is that once >>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like >>>> DHCPv6, and >>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. >>>>> >>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol shoul= d be >>>> DHCPv6, >>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like= >>>> DHCPv6? >>>> >>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property t= hat >>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can bui= ld >>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of >>>> transactional >>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource allocat= ion. >>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>> >>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; >>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < >> ipv6@ietf.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing >>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionali= ty >> and >>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this dr= aft >>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not >> usable. >>>>> >>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the ro= uter >>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's = very >>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included= in >> RS >>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When th= is >>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as= a >>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>> >>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing prot= ocol >>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself = is >>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there >>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the= >>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? = Am >> I >>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to >> each >>>> other? >>>>> >>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected mem= bers >>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draf= t >>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It sho= ws >> the >>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people k= eep >>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. >>>>> >>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pl= ease >>>> suggest another change for that. >>>>> >>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing >>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG >> chairs to >>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Naveen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wro= te: >>>>> in line.. >>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>> Hi Brian, >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>> otroan@employees.org>> >>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG <= >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>>> HI Ole, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>> ; >>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ole, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>> ; >>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>> ; >>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. = But >>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the brid= ge >>>> refers to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegati= on. >>>> Is that what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol f= or >>>> Prefix Delegation >>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in >>>> addition to that. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wi= th >> it? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple >>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a >> waste >>>> of time and resources. >>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t= have a >>>> satisfactory solution... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to >>>> Prefix Delegation >>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*.= (I >>>> add this >>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other >>>> non-protocol >>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, = but >>>> there >>>>>>> are some subtleties: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop pe= ople >>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply >> appear >>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF >> protocols >>>>>>> are concerned. >>>>>> >>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on = our >>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >>>>>> >>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services >>>>>> >>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered >> according >>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by >> DHCPv6 >>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging h= as >>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IP= AMs, >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>>>>> >>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments >> based >>>>>> on these recent discussions? >>>>> >>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such= as >>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as th= e >>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manageme= nt >>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different >> discussiion. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07= >>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missin= g >>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an= >>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any so= rt >>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different= >> than >>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv= 6 >>>> protocol proposals? >>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCP= v6 >>>> option in RS/RA messages >>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely tr= ue. >>>> By including both the IPv6 >>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there = are >>>> fewer messages >>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sa= ve a round >>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a >> cross-dependence >>>> between the two >>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS= /RA >>>> exchange and check the >>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you say= ing >>>> that that is no longer >>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a= >>>> protocol between routers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two inste= ad >> of >>>> four. That matters >>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is mor= eso >>>> how >>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending >>>> everything in >>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiri= ng >>>> multiple >>>>>>>> channel accesses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine"= you >>>> get >>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to und= ergo >>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that comm= on >>>> data >>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA= >>>> protocols >>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.)= >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, ju= st >>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not >>>> different than DHCPv6. >>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. = ND >> is >>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter >>>>>>>>> delegation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one= ). >> In >>>> this >>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is >> indication >>>> that >>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extens= ions=E2=80=9D of an >>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 19 04:03:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA6F127133 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 04:03:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:02:53 +0000 (GMT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= To: Khaled Omar , "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=ocl@gih.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFV222YBEACgs2wpt13Odtg+sLqd27VMI14mrkCVIPV8K1xZ1JgsAdYnloGvge4HWifB hGldVpIA0nmSyDfHX4ZD0iKkSfCctqB5z/FUVm7mWJD6IE9HjhKrCPQ9eEtmTlAOKJwWMnJ2 6TAxpwHtt1Ws+RR74Q4aQMBPryfz101qeQ4GVRVlrKYEEXaKSGQugDiG8HE6brlNc4DI5KCP 1DDOTJGXrVCXUS0lX/sd4uDLAXtC6fxTmQUc3IJlvyGpUQjow8IqSh4SwgE41qVnjsj/rj6n iwJCiV/BlbdA/Aqg06XVwPoVuqQcv2LJrF991YkFqznNyN9UOsjU8DAVM1zErMgt/QAmEHNU Qq/IRgFQsQ2R/QNMdGIbZWm0NhreFAnLlTzWvaGdaWUzzOK36NPWOnV3LB3OMKPaWNNG4L+q gbEx+pG7sI/Wr9AuvZ6WTuHPJmdall6j0xj2Mr6TZV/vATkvTtGa3WaiTq7q3j4nfB0618U/ OM/9e4KOFBAss1VViPASMRwKSQmpq+aE3HtExqrMypCsFpd8nEgb6bCtff4a8vVf9PzSBRWR mT5TctX0xQ+JpdgkLDdM78K5nvq2LuiZnA4r0IKfHGD5VlkADSA1tingb4mu3SE5ulNoJILu dc6vVNCzZKgwl3onmRAFwbsrrK3uYb/9T2oyk8KJp5p49ZL3vQARAQABzSdPbGl2aWVyIE1K IENyZXBpbi1MZWJsb25kIDxvY2xAZ2loLmNvbT7CwX8EEwEIACkFAlV222YCGyMFCQlmAYAH CwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRANtrZWxzImHTOLD/4hlxE0qqidULxo8YO/ wQDd4o1U9v94sZ2ILxOssu7QUDCrAcw7Vli/B+rg3nzy94etQiIbxSGsNGD4ljVFt4dPxD+6 pfJp3i+PVwqYA+b3jOHyEPf6IdJV0WTBRa8lP6R8857Y8zanOgglcgR1LFM2q5lZaL6xfYfw WNFVBryDsYW4xCLxRMMtqHcdRgpJJ6/FcOnrCxpGFZiAk1VkcZpNSnfPC4UrULb15PFDVt3X c94v2zZjHPOhTBPhcU4WvMOD+Pks+kGjWMHJDY8trukW00am9Ad49aiWAhZNOLcojuNCk0Qh 1WyNlUenohMlywZGxNOw+NIUVzyTIMHwov1y/GQudbmgK/JgrxLFEkrAZugI6XVdXu30p1KW RUo1xu4ma9s7YCy9mxju2vR8zXXaRWlExJJHsbd2RaAG4twvWBIHH2t+Mtx54LriwRZXcwrB FCnfmNgFYpQTWQE/+nO4y2PCNwVB36frFEebI+KQgglhNdSvvvy0gipJ5byqAvGBHpp7W83j dT3o88SAAo1cTZMtL6XY5FEkyGbAzuHkjEttMrVDxrIV3LAfrlzcAlRJea8CcyVTeP5NCLyp wcP9GL08K7Mqt5owuSLlUnfinferlY2/MrtGCioUVp3m6JwSdKDOsrehUDo7+BrrvfCu5Y/W qtjvELRRn8GkKBj0hc7BTQRVdttmARAA4l0oTEssJTNw04/p5kaAO8eLDLzkA56gmxRawNJg PuVSbKKCqHEpSaakGiHM8fOtwLCSnSB7ijZRQ4ki2S70HpXv+wuILpMQwgmM6MXzoR3j82rV nxe4/sawXzV2v5dLrQHEFvy61DzvuVZd48YABdaXbunSb0pgwuD/UpjIiG/GcJ6/UPp8raSL 10/JjxhVlVSM3cpn2BY0zYcqTqszOYMSpqv96GFnMl71oFZE8nIqdApr/7dBdkJfUTgP1IVT lF/OwGgF5tV7seWHQ/E7Sstxe+udgpr744yYi9hmu7VXH1KCUOzbfWyOKjCFu9wSvV56JnEj 9UD68GQTUdSL01DAMo7xBp98c4p7kcek2ToDQ1eFXKZWNg2QVDkJ7hoBETr38vseunGYw3+V 8nX3RmmkGcsVqcwf+pyzA6XIRWrUSYYo3Ys1LQdPr8EC/dJZNVg9Q1RDNwS66uYET9yVRGSh SZyIapeH0q1Q8oqBoKKbRsAK9TWkwJ3P6hOFjdYWmwSICdpcl0iPLAw2KWZaH2Ckh6GKmTvj ZPzXEAvjcw9TM6pQ3HVax9NFc6Js/lkxETZ6jZOP1UvEzu6Z3WSgHXqXihX4VIGMrW9sJo3J Rb9KEUFOwa+AYgOZRct3slVNIm4DD1+m5EuoAGxa1bwC+HBuUZgBenOsgpV9Xszf090AEQEA AcLBZQQYAQgADwUCVXbbZgIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRANtrZWxzImHVgKD/0a8uSI3QBf+a4ITyf1 BybciqSRJ22yVrYvjGL9sOtXKodg92MmKSdhwz/V8HERYTwWtNi+hffH7bV+3FkebwPIckGX nyaRIKRji52gISrbPyBoBWsD/0BN349+/P+KGb1moR4nd5hVfYtkehNE3RaNyTqH+1GTUx91 PfEDftTwUSuFbqzJR+13LfIPOXq+tOhqhUtnid5rMrasek7/k8BbUmX4BzHRsr1QLWvvlgqp vdJ9zP9GkQ+etfxxnvwSH6j+j+9NEHWA8h8k4/HXd7wnb8izQgnEiLt26JNJICfwIt47ya3h UHUjicQn/ug7FTJaUmx+qnIRfquQmaqWNay6GUMK0zGbnM422nb83K7P9vmOmpJT32fbOtMU T1YnPJLrDfQ5WQXJg379Yfr1PxNf0FXx/xJlNkvn3pQqSOyGl2VQ+ivdFFv0jAqBuWBledXF Yvy+FNldE4fSp+s6rwHX67X6jMdllt0YdKhZG0a/DOBIbzatyAqaTg7QCLsHm5A8qUBt2D9A hOK855EtSeTlb7wfa9FV9B6siYerElOrnifAEh7G1uiyJaaVMqT0VRuYAM5PfWF8LsP//CSw QByXu8BVe3/Wy3VLb2fHEadh3MPwB6HmKYuP4QmeGXUj/TA+6Byd8s64cCXXOTNl/Zvk8iGR JP45wdA1NRjCArorIw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:02:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9B51AC937A4F9849E99AD339" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:03:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9B51AC937A4F9849E99AD339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 > is 5 voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the > values of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, > 0.1, 0.2, etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, > 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. > > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and > each 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. > > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies. It's basically a non starter. Kindest regards, Olivier --=20 Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html --------------9B51AC937A4F9849E99AD339 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote= :
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.

It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD
h=
ttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html

--------------9B51AC937A4F9849E99AD339-- From nobody Mon Nov 19 04:53:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A5412F1AC for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 04:53:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L4Tq1a5SkRIL for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 04:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur01olkn0800.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe1e::800]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F126A129C6B for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 04:53:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=yjYO5CRbNB3DAz6OjMIoJ14Kaat15J4cTyDAw87igko=; b=UOaFPAnKcGdLie+Bf7oYUpfVVxAR3ym22Vdop1iQzh2y7fDwZ1K7WTeb/h6pTbPzRVLpxq37OAWDNcPEO8aWIuMKLu83andgbE7gzITp0PaiGlbL9SbedgK4P6Ld7Cna4kKOdMQMTrdDHiy0C5faeHFsH+0JCq6YEZcki9bKG7LCQFTl1dNZQ6YGavBpB5XF1tiql1eWtfrIs17CXY2+M0xVX+KcFkOxJsmTRZlB3WlMLXgat5WU8vhhOaTsfN2tRFYA6NrvfKkPvwUxn0pvWg3VO5CrJnMiUPtAKudiJo+cI0O3wIN7vU6e4tfrKkL4+PcPxd8ilNgdRi3JZrqBXQ== Received: from HE1EUR01FT064.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.53) by HE1EUR01HT011.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:52:59 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.55) by HE1EUR01FT064.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:52:59 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:52:59 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson , =?Windows-1252?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=E9pin-Leblond?= Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAAG/9bc= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:52:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:EBF5E5FCDA4ADC1F4C3190D410EA7AD09A6CFFF2F5D981CFFAD3AF559F18290C; UpperCasedChecksum:815450EF42BDD60F8871DA2CB247AF4F5CD00D596CB08104BC57866A8D630597; SizeAsReceived:8179; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Wcj6dWGP4gNTqCJ0+pAU0Uh2AIQ47Kts] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT011; 6:/iQ4Fpp44BIv8pZjsQdHcewAqDcNgrjzm1QsOP5VRBjvdXC2RSpagyVr4ojZfz0DPeQ91GuoPCLjA78CcU3ZYqD9mOt5R0r7i8ILn+og4NpEMpHD6AGlHDLMkcxPnhj8hxnB3PMcZqk6NigJ5U4Uf9HVygjUtQHfKRRowW8HP9RFaK3J09cBGxSPjEe5tmE9Roa55sS4cwiejIXTZnSwa+cejHP/q+cT5ELmXQThQACbX+1gJS/1BNJvLbv7JeGoU19RgMBxUUdnLN1gq/k2FuwT0auC9+g1jJ7u5nrUZlVocIu4mvkFAYC3gcOqqUtg6NGliSaCREjaOPbjvGlFWh1/4i5Iw5CCvKNI9S5U2UNJ0vp4FsDkecZNWIPvrps/ygwdI/8EhWl97cXeFUaTQTQL75lEXaFtlo3M5GtbPU0V1XYguqHgZrepC0oCmPjItuzNlvhHoh0e4i4OmY8XTw==; 5:zBELm7qlNl2hInet9kUUwYWxuDty8HPzLQP1APnjmrGxvjKkzblPO8lxleK8IOtx3mXb66nVLnc6CZEqVubb1tJe1TK2HgJfpBHiw0rSvpOeKP8Pzmlw7ZDeBG1G2e2M+vN7T1TZQrDguLIKy19ziFe99Tnr8E7lul3GD3xo//4=; 7:Ff6kCH2Ca+gEZhNttY4I/ZmfClS+//JTp9f/IOyDxCPUamqe79n3y+6t08cb5dzCCwFGEyBGawZAc4sKYcAHScK4f6KXFJtzFsjExfrQxoGdZWyw7ST+5ez8t+6XiioL5BaVQ65SMx62rjdT0NEUaA== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT011; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT011: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT011; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT011; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: axpDkNZ3JmRFOw6TWWtyShyLKXe3619Jha9jsTlE54ZPr9BlGxXNqc8WJ2P7+95Q Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29375F118A2C702DE1493AC6AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1f302a43-2ed6-4efe-d059-08d64e1def27 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2018 12:52:59.1314 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT011 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:53:06 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29375F118A2C702DE1493AC6AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why you call it analogue, still digital but with different limited amplitud= es of voltages that still representing the 0 and 1 that should be interpret= ed successfully to computer systems, the issue for now is a matter of prior= ity, what should be developed first, it shouldn't be without standardizatio= n, the challenge is in the amount of information that can be held by eevery= 1 and every 0. Khaled ________________________________ From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 = bits can be represented by 5 bits. For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of pha= se, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance issues = such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that change to= lerance over time. That's without taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon s= ampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies. It's basically a non starter. Kindest regards, Olivier -- Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html --_000_HE1PR0402MB29375F118A2C702DE1493AC6AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why you call it analogue, still digital but with different limited amplitud= es of voltages that still representing the 0 and 1 that should be interpret= ed successfully to computer systems, the issue for now is a matter of prior= ity, what should be developed first, it shouldn't be without standardization, the challenge is in the amount of= information that can be held by eevery 1 and every 0.

Khaled
From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-L= eblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 


On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without = taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD
htt=
p://www.gih.com/ocl.html

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"otroan@employees.org" , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAAZNxDggAVJZkAAC5WXoAAA4IYAAAZHkjQ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:41:49 +0000 Message-ID: <5ee5a66a5d1644be896d637274e9eda8@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> 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L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo+ID4+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4NCj4g Pj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Nov 19 08:39:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7535130DDF; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:39:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nxYEvhmR5ki; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli CC: 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAAZNxDggAVJZkAAC5WXoAAA4IYAAAZHkjQAAH4sNA= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:39:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0e9ebd968b8b48b39f68b7622922de41@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <5ee5a66a5d1644be896d637274e9eda8@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <5ee5a66a5d1644be896d637274e9eda8@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 1FA3155EA5E198CC2B8230B1ED15535AFAA9F567AE1CCE8DE57DE0C0DA3A12112000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:39:31 -0000 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dGl2ZSBSZXF1ZXN0czogaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHY2 DQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo= From nobody Mon Nov 19 10:21:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EDA130DDA for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:21:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAA05WuY= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:21:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:0F603EE97836589020A85F4BE76E0BA1AE7099D7EFB58F9FAB98BC2D8C6A2B3E; UpperCasedChecksum:79CA03DB36FDB44DAE8F8848CA3DDF2B5041C31C36E3156FC2ADCEC7CC3EB5C6; SizeAsReceived:8181; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [3USgx8IwA2lhhi7N4So3jNMrYkArLwGs] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR03HT009; 6:Xr5Sou8Ts5P54K8rPiJZogSPaS4gBln/lhnftUZpr5ffZpzrKrgSeCMF0NHkhvRvfJEX6x9VzhcBF0UMQRMrXHBe7z6S3vb++31C0cweQTlWxPrc4OKI5FO3HTrjdeQ1pB2yVCpMY/nhbZVVci38x0A53xNzwYEGWsYntbeyP69O+8cPrsESKFqx+KTiuQPSCi6Mpz40aXyTjq5SqIVOu/pF2oxeX1tiV1FEMDK8Wt1snaFuS1SiLEdBcsBr/SMLy1mXQl/3oJk0O4IwPxmF2/SG0kjtnhYbugCZv136DqoLvuorFLA4wn+BarepFJ5Ge89Foxgec7Mpiuh6agnb8brs4xsB6dk+VBvaR7iyD0tn6ylORdSkJ4eXPnTS6BoQR+oqTvKYd9QFZ0M73sFmrXFiYa0GavgouQ7gCLBoOEPL1SMtMpdIEtnDSlEBVJnDs7dGFCXyeTXS17RS5S1GVA==; 5:dky+q8o/i03RY9geopSjCssHKeNmNlq8aOgY3y4THeGuWK+Cp4b9/JMpfwkKbQzxb2IOcskaoCAgTzJGRUPS0nC1bj0Va4qHlQvMlvJ4QVdDkKOallZ+GLVlDR6cp9DdwNSpKz2BmgM9olJRwPG7Qn13zk5mnAtxCclrE6OwC6w=; 7:XFwtsRXG36YXJN9EpKex8f1+jW8FF4KOcrIHOhMdapjVYO+4rO6/omauwqT6Cs1pI8HsEQsm9dABJMin+blZlJIe58sGYFjYQt4teslqGNkQUCtcOgJiG5GGmeDwefPA8aZxgs1l/WnFJs5SKnPfWw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT009; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB5EUR03HT009: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:DB5EUR03HT009; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR03HT009; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: A0QYuEFnsSjgY3zVYPmaXHqW2yAd67fSDd8IFKhq7dyo2OZt8bNM0H923pTn+zqj Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB2937E90531CBD050405A8FB9AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f789c334-4099-4fb2-4bb0-08d64e4bd4fc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2018 18:21:32.1140 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT009 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:21:38 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937E90531CBD050405A8FB9AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different values, = but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new d= igital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information carried (= I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits can be eencod= ed on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to compress 32= bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing an = IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fract= ional IPv4 address). Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics. Thanks, Khaled ________________________________ From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 = bits can be represented by 5 bits. For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of pha= se, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance issues = such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that change to= lerance over time. That's without taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon s= ampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies. It's basically a non starter. Kindest regards, Olivier -- Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937E90531CBD050405A8FB9AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different values, = but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new digital stream with limited values,= no.2 the amount of information carried (I.e. what is the standard track th= at determines how many bits can be eencoded on every one output), no.3 comp= ressing normal binary bits to compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing = an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fr= actional IPv4 address).

Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics.

Thanks,

Khaled
From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-L= eblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 


On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without = taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD
htt=
p://www.gih.com/ocl.html

--_000_HE1PR0402MB2937E90531CBD050405A8FB9AED80HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Mon Nov 19 10:32:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92608130DEA for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:32:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n6H0HtXBp98L for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1B50130DDA for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id a132so50331876qkg.1 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HiEc2BRCVLtIuNfkJd01frl099sKaWMGqfy2rD7MLd8=; b=ctmri41FNH0Z1IGTkkzScZGMjZhDrU9EZ9rx83nQY4jkaxVJFXsnjJE/MobBgf7xak tKQze5u4MERPZpjfVuDYi8dv3dQSB7ZFr4Ww9An1pkCXovhRSq0ECCrNYRV80FVS1N45 KyNq2uL1Au58ULlepKfF6Yxif7u/cRrsox/A2djyrvX8zasAEfgT3N7wHgfuvYim/6cS 9qKOPrwN69aJ4aZHXyNvHkfMDsU+3F2loHlz3OO6eB55Ohg0Uf8o0OnzHLbUjIMXQU6F yhraV4m5Cy0IKunY4AKhC4TXrr0k9h+hzbURx8OYk+B+Mm2TFWSmvPIK3kavvi9+lH23 EskQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HiEc2BRCVLtIuNfkJd01frl099sKaWMGqfy2rD7MLd8=; b=Er4CF4hWY3XFq98QTHJFeMn915KD3jIZ66qe0PUnp7v07zUs61Pp74NWPpjoxU/ejr C429M+iHM9DJmbDPs4+jg+69QkfwZ2i1ERj6XAwBWZJUZmMzMYvZRx1yOVN9zq2/wfGL I/u74ps1omuRopmJZ8xMiqOe+G09BanWa1vQIZQmgRSJCX86YFtgXzX9OPQbo+bEZBNi 9z1E6zNd+DbbVCRuJjiUcuz9H0e065nIyAHHPe42/2OyulN9GpUJbw3v2ohKZrpR8HMz x7mqAAAPbBQ5JN6vSb/hzQZH7a3H5bXgIxXfU3lIjqy5Ko2T+uhAYfxahuDFpgP9B7mc nP8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKWPg568R9IMc5IfH6BKVVjeHdYX0BhteujoA0Mu3zvNDOKy+6g vF7031Z05QUmtL4eQn3SBgx3fRT6/sujfTIdHRtWqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cNr/p77gQkwF0E2SuFVWk7CyG7a67qMsaLIUCTZv7ilBC90O0U2J1E97r0BdF7P66iML94JRHceirYUdYiK+A= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c966:: with SMTP id v35mr22965938qvj.45.1542652364766; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:32:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Lemon Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:32:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin=2DLeblond?= , Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036d436057b08be58" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:32:49 -0000 --00000000000036d436057b08be58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF. On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to > the main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of > the new signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different > values, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream in= to > a new digital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information > carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits ca= n > be eencoded on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to > compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including > compressing an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address > space using fractional IPv4 address). > > Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came > here took us to other topics. > > Thanks, > > Khaled > ------------------------------ > *From:* Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond > *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson > *Subject:* [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 > voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of > voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc a= nd > the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so th= e > 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. > > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each > 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. > > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. > > > Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. Th= e > problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem > is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue > TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of > phase, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance > issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that > change tolerance over time. That's without taking into account the > Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at > higher frequencies. > > It's basically a non starter. > > Kindest regards, > > Olivier > > -- > Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --00000000000036d436057b08be58 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope f= or the IETF.=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:
=
There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different valu= es, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new digital stream with limited values,= no.2 the amount of information carried (I.e. what is the standard track th= at determines how many bits can be eencoded on every one output), no.3 comp= ressing normal binary bits to compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing = an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fr= actional IPv4 address).

Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics.

Thanks,

Khaled
From: = Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
=C2=A0


On 18/11/2018 01:22, Kh= aled Omar wrote:
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. = The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other probl= em is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to ana= logue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's with= out taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html

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--00000000000036d436057b08be58-- From nobody Mon Nov 19 10:54:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B53130DF6 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:54:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZmFpuCdyKSrB for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAF58130DF3 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id p4so24052873wrt.7 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:54:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iSuj/oJ9sKwD3w+bnrjRtoKUj3bgukdTufyJPId0aiU=; b=DPgVr38+9/SXYrTRKY6+tSwXOlei3k27zvXsqAJ3EI4H3a5Hru87KG5ZtScK4oHgHu 5ibl70k6/LDQs4lC/Vc6kfOrKsPltl5MFYr5vLw1sbQzS++boQ30Ytleyu33lCiS1odr T9VK+EQzqU6C6fcjvA+Y+cCTLLTxT67JzQ/r+yRBd8bhyXJTt3oAItytVFUirNod17pQ 3kyfqFOGIviprZ9xrMsKkYS4SKOnjTPjw8cfCNCxReeMMPW7kvgdesp9RuSSQo/0dv/w dt0GQoQGR6cnMD3n4VEFfuZJFKj07yUpP6Uvq6mdObApROhIBq2Wz0L9Xg5MtIEjTxGA Iz6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iSuj/oJ9sKwD3w+bnrjRtoKUj3bgukdTufyJPId0aiU=; b=kDAKnZwOQZ8V6zbqeClknTCKrM9DDzKQoLGxvKOMEeZertOX3xTzX1eGBOmemTEWMi DC7i+wNkAFdaQyEBHJnm4gUDXno24mpKGRIZiLM57HqTqgkqJkg51t8uuCYc3wZy/bLB V1JWTW2nT9Qzu1PiVhGdLZWNULWlO1ms9ZrObRDyhow6a75pHsas5kJTfrkPF0aHoPp4 31dW+YAJjOXrLKrJnc8XVx8gbZ3S0MNkX7M3fMAbJHFlVEm85MTOX89FkxpF2X1wjGBJ 2rVeU67Up6NnBmQohz3jrfHL2Dqe2VaKA+5Xg2/h9ydRM3x3Z3LCfN6qyKCq6sgh6qm5 fqWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbMthibz/pnSmtzjxqpTGvAuxXz4h1nWyIe8dBQNCYEouKNzHei g6Qy1q5CgAz2VpZdz6sBUaX8LGUt1uQSbq5zzb41LQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Wm8tprYSLvR1rpiacBtEa/DKcLzenIk16aSWt6KLXyXSN24OIMzWmzFleSWw2NhAURGy5a87wwY06PEBR2XRQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4e82:: with SMTP id e2mr9287325wru.291.1542653689867; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:54:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:54:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Khaled Omar , Simon Hobson , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000324405057b090d18" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 18:54:55 -0000 --000000000000324405057b090d18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF. > > Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS (and 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to discuss this. W > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: > >> There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to >> the main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of >> the new signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different >> values, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream i= nto >> a new digital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information >> carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits c= an >> be eencoded on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to >> compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including >> compressing an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address >> space using fractional IPv4 address). >> >> Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came >> here took us to other topics. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Khaled >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond >> *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM >> *To:* Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson >> *Subject:* [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. >> >> >> >> On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: >> >> Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is = 5 >> voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of >> voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc = and >> the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so t= he >> 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. >> >> For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each >> 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. >> >> Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. >> >> >> Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. >> The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other >> problem is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to >> analogue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into >> problems of phase, interference between the different signals as well as >> tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and >> capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without taking into >> account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing >> especially at higher frequencies. >> >> It's basically a non starter. >> >> Kindest regards, >> >> Olivier >> >> -- >> Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000324405057b090d18 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
Mr. Omar, layer 1= signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF.=C2=A0

<= /div>

Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chair= s) out of scope for V6OPS (and 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to discuss = this.
W

=C2=A0
On Mon, Nov= 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:
There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different valu= es, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new digital stream with limited values,= no.2 the amount of information carried (I.e. what is the standard track th= at determines how many bits can be eencoded on every one output), no.3 comp= ressing normal binary bits to compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing = an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fr= actional IPv4 address).

Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics.

Thanks,

Khaled
From: Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
=C2=A0


On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. = The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other probl= em is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to ana= logue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's with= out taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.=
gih.com/ocl.html

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


--
I don't think the execution is relevant when= it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting ra= bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho= se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<= /div>
--000000000000324405057b090d18-- From nobody Mon Nov 19 16:07:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A613E127598; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:06:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fee0BPHeOuV2; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB376124C04; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAK06s6e008621; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:06:54 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.220]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAK06lrU008562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:06:47 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdc::8988:efdc) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:06:46 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:06:46 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ole Troan CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) Thread-Index: AdSAY36qtA2OERADQbW2hWLMfMBupQ== Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 00:06:46 +0000 Message-ID: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 855BE9603E4B34EF89776A61B7F433D300EAF410C51ACC9696AE9BFF555EC7362000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 00:06:57 -0000 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TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EC7A1286E3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 06:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:5:ac9:b1fb:9644:42bc:17d3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:5:ac9:b1fb:9644:42bc:17d3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78F3D8872B; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:03:18 +0100 (CET) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , Ole Troan Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fgont@si6networks.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBE5so2gBEACzBQBLUy8nzgAzSZn6ViXT6TmZBFNYNqTpPRvTVtUqF6+tkI+IEd9N2E8p pXUXCd0W4dkxz6o7pagnK63m4QSueggvp881RVVHOF8oTSHOdnGxLfLeLNJFKE1FOutU3vod GK/wG/Fwzkv9MebdXpMlLV8nnJuAt66XGl/lU1JrNfrKO4SoYQi4TsB/waUQcygh7OR/PEO0 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29NlQLnVPjCRCKbaz9k6RJ2oIti55YUI6zSsL3lmlOXsRbXN5bRswFczkNSCJxJMlDiyAUIC WOay7ymzvgzPa+BY/mYn94vRaurDQ4/ljOfj6oqgfjts+dJev4Jj89vp8MQI3KJpZPEAEQEA AcLBZQQYAQIADwUCTmyjaAIbDAUJEswDAAAKCRCuJQ1VHU50km4xEACho45PZrUjY4Zl2opR DFNo5a6roTOPpgwO9PcBb3I5F8yX2Dnew+9OhgWXbBhAFq4DCx+9Gjs43Bn60qbZTDbLGJ/m 8N4PwEiq0e5MKceYcbetEdEUWhm5L6psU9ZZ82GR3UGxPXYe+oifEoJjOXQ39avf9S8p3yKP Diil0E79rn7LbJjMcgMLyjFg9SDoJ6pHLtniJoDhEAaSSgeV7Y745+gyMIdtQmrFHfqrFdjq D6G0HE+Z68ywc5KN67YxhvhBmSycs1ZSKAXv1zLDlXdmjHDHkU3xMcB+RkuiTba8yRFYwb/n j62CC4NhFTuIKOc4ta3dJsyXTGh/hO9UjWUnmAGfd0fnzTBZF8Qlnw/8ftx5lt4/O+eqY1EN RITScnPzXE/wMOlTtdkddQ+QN6xt6jyR2XtAIi7aAFHypIqA3lLI9hF9x+lj4UQ2yA9LqpoX 6URpPOd13JhAyDe47cwsP1u9Y+OBvQTVLSvw7Liu2b4KjqL4lx++VdBi7dXsjJ6kjIRjI6Lb WVpxe8LumMCuVDepTafBZ49gr7Fgc4F9ZSCo6ChgQNLn6WDzIkqFX+42KuHz90AHWhuW+KZR 1aJylERWeTcMCGUSBptd48KniWmD6kPKpzwoMkJtEXTuO2lVuborxzwuqOTNuYg9lWDl7zKt wPI9brGzquUHy4qRrA== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 03:06:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:03:31 -0000 Fred, It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there seems to be close to null host support for SEND. I'd also argue that SEND has a very small ROI -- particularly when lots of other pieces of the "puzzle" remain to be secured. Note: the above is a comment about this particular argument, and *not* an argument against including DHCPv6 options in ND messages. Thanks, Fernando On 19/11/18 21:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Ole, > > Another benefit for including DHCPv6 messages as options within IPv6ND > RS/RA messages is that Secure Neighbor Discovery (SEND) can be used to > secure the message exchange. And, the Nonce option value can serve > as an enhanced transaction ID to supplement the 24-bit value in the > DHCPv6 message header. > > So, in addition to the advantages already discussed, using DHCPv6 in > conjunction with IPv6ND provides benefits not available by using > DHCPv6 separately from IPv6ND. > > Thanks - Fred > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L >> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:54 AM >> To: Ole Troan >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> >> Hi Ole, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:32 AM >>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> >>> Fred, >>> >>>> On 14 Nov 2018, at 16:38, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> >>>> Ole, >>>> >>>> You didn't respond to my point which is really at the heart of the matter: >>>> >>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of four. That matters >>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>> >>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso how >>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everything in >>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring multiple >>>>> channel accesses. >>>> >>>> Fewer messages are fewer messages. On congested links with lots of >>>> channel contention that is an important consideration. >>> >>> If this is such a big concern, what are you doing with all the other ND chatter? >> >> DAD is disabled, because there is operational assurance that addresses will >> be unique. NUD is not needed either. All that is needed is RS/RA. >> >>> Perhaps you should drop ND on these links and do only DHCP? :-) >> >> DHCPv6 does not deliver default router lifetime, on-link prefix information, >> SLLAO, nor any other parameters carried uniquely by RS/RA. We need >> that information. >> >>> Or preconfigure everything so you don’t need to send any packets at all? >> >> There are use cases where a mobile node such as an airplane is pre-provisioned >> with a Mobile Network Prefix (MNP). But, when the node comes onto the >> network it still needs to register its MNP with the network so that the network >> will set up the correct routing information. DHCPv6 PD is a good way to do that. >> >>> Do you have data on the behavior of this link type, showing the effects you are referring to? >> >> The reality for today and into the near future is that we have 32Kbps for VHF >> terrestrial cellular and 256KB for SATCOM. For the longer term, there may be >> new SATCOM services as well as 1Mbps for a future terrestrial cellular link that >> may or may not ever be deployed. >> >> But, what is good in this environment applies more broadly to other more >> robust environments. Fewer messages is still fewer messages. >> >> Thanks - Fred >> >>> Cheers >>> Ole >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Nov 20 06:28:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC2C1274D0 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 06:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NuHmHpNKnWyv for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 06:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80F8F12D4F2 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 06:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wAKES3U3114686 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:28:03 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C2EA2045E7 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:28:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518752045D8 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:28:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wAKES3d6012164 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:28:03 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:28:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:28:08 -0000 Le 20/11/2018 à 07:06, Fernando Gont a écrit : > Fred, > > It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there seems > to be close to null host support for SEND. Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now on the command line? Alex > > Thanks, > Fernando > > > > > On 19/11/18 21:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> Hi Ole, >> >> Another benefit for including DHCPv6 messages as options within IPv6ND >> RS/RA messages is that Secure Neighbor Discovery (SEND) can be used to >> secure the message exchange. And, the Nonce option value can serve >> as an enhanced transaction ID to supplement the 24-bit value in the >> DHCPv6 message header. >> >> So, in addition to the advantages already discussed, using DHCPv6 in >> conjunction with IPv6ND provides benefits not available by using >> DHCPv6 separately from IPv6ND. >> >> Thanks - Fred >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:54 AM >>> To: Ole Troan >>> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >>> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> >>> Hi Ole, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:32 AM >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> >>>> Fred, >>>> >>>>> On 14 Nov 2018, at 16:38, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ole, >>>>> >>>>> You didn't respond to my point which is really at the heart of the matter: >>>>> >>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead of four. That matters >>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>>> >>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is moreso how >>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending everything in >>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring multiple >>>>>> channel accesses. >>>>> >>>>> Fewer messages are fewer messages. On congested links with lots of >>>>> channel contention that is an important consideration. >>>> >>>> If this is such a big concern, what are you doing with all the other ND chatter? >>> >>> DAD is disabled, because there is operational assurance that addresses will >>> be unique. NUD is not needed either. All that is needed is RS/RA. >>> >>>> Perhaps you should drop ND on these links and do only DHCP? :-) >>> >>> DHCPv6 does not deliver default router lifetime, on-link prefix information, >>> SLLAO, nor any other parameters carried uniquely by RS/RA. We need >>> that information. >>> >>>> Or preconfigure everything so you don’t need to send any packets at all? >>> >>> There are use cases where a mobile node such as an airplane is pre-provisioned >>> with a Mobile Network Prefix (MNP). But, when the node comes onto the >>> network it still needs to register its MNP with the network so that the network >>> will set up the correct routing information. DHCPv6 PD is a good way to do that. >>> >>>> Do you have data on the behavior of this link type, showing the effects you are referring to? >>> >>> The reality for today and into the near future is that we have 32Kbps for VHF >>> terrestrial cellular and 256KB for SATCOM. For the longer term, there may be >>> new SATCOM services as well as 1Mbps for a future terrestrial cellular link that >>> may or may not ever be deployed. >>> >>> But, what is good in this environment applies more broadly to other more >>> robust environments. Fewer messages is still fewer messages. >>> >>> Thanks - Fred >>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Ole >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > From nobody Tue Nov 20 06:32:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9361286E3 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 06:32:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR01MB4626; H:BL0PR01MB4706.prod.exchangelabs.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: wpi.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: RSlS8G3Q11IOY0dyU7xCu/d4gv84EYkXzHQOChMbQFf7Kuf3iJ1JuYVdNrOaPzt4y4yc6XwJ7ntF58QV/Ne6ujfEmFfSj17xXPl/2L4PyqcVjGNLRDisxIzmcYtCNDJ/ggHxB9U6EvNIM5/2lO5qRTTlzaUwX83EGH1Z77Ik7ZzvC6/GZy8BRapE+BQA0TrDVrJn8Sty7f/s5jP4HjYipP0cMk1dm8EtJtBhDN813FhRs5pDmVRqSyNuJRJODj82tphyQ1Smvadefa+Du6LqENnfzhxRUjSPNc/EbBhb151Dil0dssj9XDRCVcCBOMZjgDc6r9x1Tc/iU+LgahpzKVAkbJOXYKIYPpSVcg9yvko= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <57B4DC33BB92694D9FE0F26AAC2A5E6B@prod.exchangelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: wpi.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a366f8f6-3a17-4b82-0352-08d64ef4f050 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2018 14:32:03.2347 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 589c76f5-ca15-41f9-884b-55ec15a0672a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR01MB4626 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:32:08 -0000 On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 03:28:03PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Le 20/11/2018 =E0 07:06, Fernando Gont a =E9crit=A0: > > Fred, > >=20 > > It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there seem= s > > to be close to null host support for SEND. >=20 > Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. >=20 > What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now on=20 > the command line? Filter it on all untrusted switch ports. From nobody Tue Nov 20 07:01:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D471274D0 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:01:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPP-lmddIhlu for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:13b:39f::9f:25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B9041286E3 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AFCF8D4A216; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:00:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87762D1F862; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:00:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lmq0sdwUb3dX; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:00:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.88] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23AC8D1F83A; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:00:57 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "Alexandre Petrescu" Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:01:16 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6129) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:01:04 -0000 On 20 Nov 2018, at 14:28, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Le 20/11/2018 à 07:06, Fernando Gont a écrit : >> Fred, >> >> It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there >> seems >> to be close to null host support for SEND. > > Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. > > What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now > on the command line? There’s (3rd party) SeND support for most desktop/server operating systems. /bz From nobody Tue Nov 20 07:38:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66CC2123FFD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:37:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LD4RAqSwORVk; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40BB12008A; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAKFbsJY014411; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:37:54 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKFbitk013980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:37:44 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:37:43 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:37:43 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fernando Gont , Ole Troan CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) Thread-Index: AdSAY36qtA2OERADQbW2hWLMfMBupQAdsXEAAAMBteA= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:37:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 5541876266B96491625AB853AE8E973FD705BA5BCEFF8AF1429D98D880DCE6492000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , 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wAKG4Wv1054396; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:04:33 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.220]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKG4Mtg054168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:04:22 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdc::8988:efdc) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:04:21 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:04:21 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "Anderson, Charles R" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHUgOqy7zXWtICzaUmAX7ltYWExlw== Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:04:21 +0000 Message-ID: <456daf7677d248d78e7e6d75c33b5a25@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> <20181120143201.jsquwhgqlauahpe5@angus.ind.wpi.edu> In-Reply-To: <20181120143201.jsquwhgqlauahpe5@angus.ind.wpi.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: A3F5A62F11490A4556D52E8DF02C01CFBDA87DB1CCC7B6604ECD122A97AB4ABF2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:04:36 -0000 Hi, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Anderson, Charle= s R > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:32 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notific= ation for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) >=20 > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 03:28:03PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > Le 20/11/2018 =E0 07:06, Fernando Gont a =E9crit=A0: > > > Fred, > > > > > > It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there se= ems > > > to be close to null host support for SEND. > > > > Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. > > > > What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now on > > the command line? >=20 > Filter it on all untrusted switch ports. IPv6 ND trust models and threats that motivate SEND are in RFC3756. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Nov 20 08:33:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0BB130DC1 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:33:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wpi0.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AtzbN3uqzGWW for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR01MB4098; H:BL0PR01MB4706.prod.exchangelabs.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: wpi.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Mn+MRWlo4R5oMj28P+8H1CReMXe5liHLGfnjWIFu5GzLjoPqE60f1JVhovEwX3q0rdEs5Hq2o8jtPuA2/zwTZQ78dn7/did4IA37GoDchn0Ma3UgQGchlVtO7wcUvMVoGNDk2bW/Dj90Pj4S9MmxyB0F8evrcwkPpmwF+THQgA2iE0kR1iAziKMN0uJcHc6xqZilGZbG+l6Q+McQBAxUZNXVt3Bog8o0YjEcgtwNMifu2rLkxZmvsTX66TlWgTM4uZl4UhzqcHxU5Ewh3cKte4fUWZ4zIrh+33jb9HSwKiK++0FR5NaPE4vMIoama0kI4hgQl3MrPxmjhlcxV1YJMGROPTcn7XWx2mFKWPI0zII= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: wpi.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8d2e3f65-015f-41ac-df93-08d64f05ead3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2018 16:33:35.5380 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 589c76f5-ca15-41f9-884b-55ec15a0672a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR01MB4098 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:33:41 -0000 On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:04:21PM +0000, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi, >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Anderson, Char= les R > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:32 AM > > To: v6ops@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notif= ication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) > >=20 > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 03:28:03PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > Le 20/11/2018 =E0 07:06, Fernando Gont a =E9crit=A0: > > > > Fred, > > > > > > > > It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there = seems > > > > to be close to null host support for SEND. > > > > > > Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. > > > > > > What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now = on > > > the command line? > >=20 > > Filter it on all untrusted switch ports. >=20 > IPv6 ND trust models and threats that motivate SEND are in RFC3756. Let me rephrase my answer to this question: "What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now on th= e command line?" In today's enterprise LANs, RFC6959 SAVI implementations are more available= and straighforward to deploy very quickly than RFC3756 implementations. N= o changes to end hosts are required. From nobody Tue Nov 20 08:44:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EECC130DC1 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:44:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tC49lvmycsbh for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC32012F1AC for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAKGittP053261; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:44:55 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKGin5P053225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:44:50 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:44:49 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 08:44:49 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "Anderson, Charles R" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHUgOqy7zXWtICzaUmAX7ltYWExl6VZYdeA//98gjA= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:44:49 +0000 Message-ID: <2bd116f1202d4557a9f57802abdd6d99@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> <20181120143201.jsquwhgqlauahpe5@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <456daf7677d248d78e7e6d75c33b5a25@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20181120163333.7g2hle5uk6sbwlm7@angus.ind.wpi.edu> In-Reply-To: <20181120163333.7g2hle5uk6sbwlm7@angus.ind.wpi.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: D201C55BBDCB49FB7042770899DD12F274DEE163643DA50E25EADF48E8560B432000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:44:58 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Anderson, Charles R [mailto:cra@wpi.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 8:34 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notific= ation for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) >=20 > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:04:21PM +0000, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Anderson, Ch= arles R > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:32 AM > > > To: v6ops@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Not= ification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management- > 00.txt) > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 03:28:03PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > > Le 20/11/2018 =E0 07:06, Fernando Gont a =E9crit=A0: > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > > > > > It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", ther= e seems > > > > > to be close to null host support for SEND. > > > > > > > > Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. > > > > > > > > What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly no= w on > > > > the command line? > > > > > > Filter it on all untrusted switch ports. > > > > IPv6 ND trust models and threats that motivate SEND are in RFC3756. >=20 > Let me rephrase my answer to this question: >=20 > "What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now on = the command line?" >=20 > In today's enterprise LANs, RFC6959 SAVI implementations are more availab= le and straighforward to deploy very quickly than RFC3756 > implementations. No changes to end hosts are required. Today's enterprise LANs are an example of a secured link type, where link layer securing mechanisms such as IEEE 802.1X can be used. Not all link types can be secured at the link and/or physical layer. From nobody Tue Nov 20 10:09:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57707130DCD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:09:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ojjCcw5C73Np; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3860E130DC8; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id p6so2026789lfc.1; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:09:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T5hxg1R485gKpLa985hs6aP4ZIcgyh/u5MyLD4Icz9c=; b=LwKGgZtAyjTrJ/v4cuJgh6Exm4757OpN3IGJCWUgOanMlgIilq5ByTjxs0AyWAxOnm 1K82v1Cz0hPS/u5KLbia3bsE8sXkc2xS6bj6XJ+hIeSdVUznCLRtUP8qwXTWE7sNVt+y ESyE9tozPyvWqV4IwXgfInHrApnem3zFhBGdkSqc+ot5tA/I4eolJMiexzbl0sOuy6Zs kCj855iKx4djBZB29BpcB8gWzKRRgAzB/F4rJhmCGdryv5CG+0DVrWVZRIDYxv8G01sN wrCsOietO3hFPbv3q5WZ2JQ5d6sPFnYRFXruH2xjw+TEQen9mS4E77DoOS/3Rj7hkIet xz9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T5hxg1R485gKpLa985hs6aP4ZIcgyh/u5MyLD4Icz9c=; b=h8nOEGJMiTrkSPnp9g5DTgP0qVrcoFLarO1gOwjmikoCU13j6LBpxbARkyGMS26bOW Uj6AKT9V1ZIqv8t0A4PkBS3xmH4E0p79ueXP82BnHS4lK2kBD0/dG2KLEPcqmeT8R7x5 H9MBiTb928FbLt1CNWVDjsSeG7RX6kwfnu1AOPF/TktTU5VqayauZ+uDXVBA2hiPyDgG v8GhZj0JGNM1UDzYG3Sb5pTwfO0J4mS/dKqzkBl8vZzX3+oLiPMJCdirGE23p28BzYEa tQ4nwu2X/+HoFXC3xTq5WCGQmWFlzfzxy/T0ZVrjjE69ibr+Qn8rETBYqh5tep6E8Fxg yjEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKEVI0qN55qczbiSND1K5kAWx1bFgw5+woXgSfgHFzBuQ0PbHbI KlpxS6LK0FszLRXX1pyUNPZFvAt5hmSF4r+JDQ4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e2u8a6PAoKjXTvOPSzOp3laAoLKdNjNACLjPEpxfdayvRj/zaVaLZEUdnAAN+7M/xmiteRbGiXpE4Vei2PEQg= X-Received: by 2002:a19:26ce:: with SMTP id m197mr1638164lfm.23.1542737355054; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:09:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:38:51 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000007a489057b1c889a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:09:22 -0000 --00000000000007a489057b1c889a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Brian, Comments inline. Yours, Naveen. On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Please find comments inline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>> Hello Brian, > >>> > >>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > >> allocation > >>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that > missing > >>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to > function > >>> even with proposed protocol? > >> > >> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > >> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > >> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited > >> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a > >> prefix, which are totally different actions. > >> > > > > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicit= ed > > and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my > current > > knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is > received > > from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the > > prefix unsolicited. > > Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand > your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or > by DHCPv6-ND. > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gateway too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devices directly tunneled over GRE. Consider the case of described in RFC8273, where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or assignment. > > > So, since both node and router will have context of > > prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF f= or > > nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of > this > > in next version of draft. > > But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. > > >> > >> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > >> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You > really > >> need some kind of two-phase commit. > > > > > > Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of > losing > > a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more del= ay > > in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as th= e > > retry mechanism is in place. > > A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being > allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest > that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of > four messages. > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can be a subject of future study. > > > I would rather say that the resource is never > > lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocat= ed > > even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will > anyway > > retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated > > prefix. > > But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement > for safe resource allocation. > > > > > The standard RA doesn't have this > >> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is > >> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. > >> > > > > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn'= t > > want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in > > this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > > As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". > Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different > statement. > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever didn't go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? > > >> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > >> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > >> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > >> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > >> identifier for the box.) > >> > > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > > configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can > log > > using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > > router. > > /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested. > Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But > if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > Brian > > > > >> > >>> > >>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > >>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. > >> > >> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > >> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a > >> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justif= y. > >> Why do that? > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>> Please correct me if am wrong. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>> Naveen, > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA > messages > >>>> requires > >>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namel= y, > >>>> DHCPv6). > >>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >>>> requires a > >>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > >> feeling > >>>> is that once > >>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > >>>> DHCPv6, and > >>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol shoul= d > be > >>>> DHCPv6, > >>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > >>>> DHCPv6? > >>>> > >>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property > that > >>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can bui= ld > >>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >>>> transactional > >>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource > allocation. > >>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > >> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello all, > >>>>> > >>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > >>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionali= ty > >> and > >>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this > draft > >>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > >> usable. > >>>>> > >>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the > router > >>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's > very > >>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included > in > >> RS > >>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When th= is > >>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as= a > >>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>>>> > >>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing > protocol > >>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself = is > >>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > >>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > >>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? > Am > >> I > >>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to > >> each > >>>> other? > >>>>> > >>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected > members > >>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draf= t > >>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It sho= ws > >> the > >>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people > keep > >>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>>>> > >>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, > please > >>>> suggest another change for that. > >>>>> > >>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > >> chairs to > >>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yours, > >>>>> Naveen. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> in line.. > >>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brian, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. > But > >>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the brid= ge > >>>> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix > delegation. > >>>> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol f= or > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >>>> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wi= th > >> it? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > >>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > >> waste > >>>> of time and resources. > >>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t= have a > >>>> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. > (I > >>>> add this > >>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >>>> non-protocol > >>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, > but > >>>> there > >>>>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop > people > >>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > >> appear > >>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > >> protocols > >>>>>>> are concerned. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on > our > >>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > >> according > >>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > >> DHCPv6 > >>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging h= as > >>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary > IPAMs, > >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments > >> based > >>>>>> on these recent discussions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such > as > >>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as th= e > >>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manageme= nt > >>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > >> discussiion. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missin= g > >>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any so= rt > >>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > >> than > >>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv= 6 > >>>> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCP= v6 > >>>> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely > true. > >>>> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there > are > >>>> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sa= ve a round > >>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > >> cross-dependence > >>>> between the two > >>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the > RS/RA > >>>> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you > saying > >>>> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > >>>> protocol between routers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two inste= ad > >> of > >>>> four. That matters > >>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is > moreso > >>>> how > >>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >>>> everything in > >>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiri= ng > >>>> multiple > >>>>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" > you > >>>> get > >>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to > undergo > >>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that comm= on > >>>> data > >>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > >>>> protocols > >>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, ju= st > >>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >>>> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. = ND > >> is > >>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter > >>>>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one= ). > >> In > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > >> indication > >>>> that > >>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extens= ions=E2=80=9D of > an > >>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --00000000000007a489057b1c889a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Brian,

Comments inline.

Yours,
Naveen.


On Mon, 19 Nov = 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli w= rote:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Please find comments inline.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Naveen
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a= resource
>> allocation
>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see t= hat missing
>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC t= o function
>>> even with proposed protocol?
>>
>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahni= sm
>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguousl= y.
>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an uns= olicited
>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assignin= g a
>> prefix, which are totally different actions.
>>
>
> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolici= ted
> and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we need to distinguish like that?=C2=A0 As = per my current
> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is rec= eived
> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning= the
> prefix unsolicited.=C2=A0

Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand=
your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or
by DHCPv6-ND.
Naveen] I would see this as partially tr= ue.=C2=A0 As one of the forum member mentioned, RA does more than advertisi= ng the prefix.=C2=A0 Even in our gateway too prefixes are assigned to subsc= ribers when a RS is received from devices directly tunneled over GRE.=C2=A0= Consider the case of described in RFC8273, where the prefixes are assigned= to devices upon receipt of RS.=C2=A0 So, it needn't always be a config= uration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or assignment.

> So, since both node and router will have context of
> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF = for
> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of = this
> in next version of draft.

But there is no field in an RA for a nonce.
Naveen] Th= at is what my draft is proposing.=C2=A0

>>
>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practi= ce
>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. Yo= u really
>> need some kind of two-phase commit.
>
>
> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of l= osing
> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A two way commit will induce mo= re delay
> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as t= he
> retry mechanism is in place.=C2=A0

A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being
allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest
that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of
four messages.
Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit i= s considerably safe.=C2=A0 This can be a subject of future study.

> I would rather say that the resource is never
> lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from router perspective the resource is a= llocated
> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node.=C2=A0 A devi= ce will anyway
> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocate= d
> prefix.

But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement
for safe resource allocation.

>
> The standard RA doesn't have this
>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, an= d it is
>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't = matter.
>>
>
> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, = didn't
> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed= in
> this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?

As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly differ= ent
statement.
Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not = all routers might not be eligible to say that "You can use this prefix= " (for example, whoever didn't go for a < /64 prefix allocation= ).=C2=A0 There must not be a big change in existing behavior.=C2=A0 Can you= please help me understand your comment?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
>>
>>>
>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is t= he term
>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub= pool.
>>
>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment= " are all fundamentally the
>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function = of a
>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you t= o justify.
>> Why do that?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Please correct me if am wrong.
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <
>> b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>> Naveen,
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 = ND RS/RA messages
>>>> requires
>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing pr= otocol (namely,
>>>> DHCPv6).
>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND= option but
>>>> requires a
>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your dra= ft yet. My
>> feeling
>>>> is that once
>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look ve= ry much like
>>>> DHCPv6, and
>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protoc= ols.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the p= rotocol should be
>>>> DHCPv6,
>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that loo= ks a lot like
>>>> DHCPv6?
>>>>
>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one = property that
>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see = how we can build
>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some for= m of
>>>> transactional
>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resour= ce allocation.
>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/= RA.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; >>>> = otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <
>> ipv6@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with ot= her existing
>>>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t = the functionality
>> and
>>>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the case= s where this draft
>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself= is not
>> usable.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting somethin= g from the router
>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, = IMHO it's very
>>>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a = PIO is included in
>> RS
>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router= .=C2=A0 When this
>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by sa= ying it as a
>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>>
>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the = existing protocol
>>>> standards without new message types or option types or fla= gs itself is
>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, are= n't there
>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be s= ent to the
>>>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLA= AC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am
>> I
>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant = protocols to
>> each
>>>> other?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many = respected members
>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my cu= rrent draft
>>>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become= standards.=C2=A0 It shows
>> the
>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sur= e people keep
>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside = the draft, please
>>>> suggest another change for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on= providing
>>>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the = forum and WG
>> chairs to
>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>> Naveen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>&= gt; wrote:
>>>>> in line..
>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.= com<mailto:
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= <mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org<mailto= :
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>; 6man WG <
>>>> ipv6@ie= tf.org<mailto:ipv= 6@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrot= e:
>>>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mai= lto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36= AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com&= lt;mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin = (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrot= e:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 20= 18 9:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" target=3D"_blank">Fred.L.Templi= n@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.= com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, = Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrot= e:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-= ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailt= o:otroan@employee= s.org<mailto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November= 12, 2018 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred= L <Fred.= L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli = <naveen.sarm= a@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] N= ew Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to= some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But
>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole alo= ng with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegat= ion is quite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless thi= s is water under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understan= d this comment, the water under the bridge
>>>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv= 6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation.
>>>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning t= o say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that= DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alte= rnate IPv6 ND-based protocol in
>>>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that= , but would the community agree with
>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community t= ry to avoid providing multiple
>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fai= l.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is = the one and only solution?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem tha= t is already solved is a
>> waste
>>>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a probl= em where we don=E2=80=99t have a
>>>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one= and only solution to
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegatio= n protocol is needed*. (I
>>>> add this
>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v= 6ops-pdhost' lists other
>>>> non-protocol
>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix= delegation.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the = current IETF solution, but
>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can= 't actually stop people
>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, = which would simply
>> appear
>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mec= hanism as far as the IETF
>> protocols
>>>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my m= essage based on our
>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including a= nima) which we
>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. = >From that document:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation servic= es must be considered
>> according
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An examp= le service is that offered by
>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative servi= ce based on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6ma= n-pio-exclusive-bit].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exi= st, such as proprietary IPAMs,
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] an= d
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management= -yang]."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make s= ome adjustments
>> based
>>>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I sai= d, proposals such as
>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DH= CPv6-PD as the
>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management
>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a diff= erent
>> discussiion.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit whil= e developing
>>>>>>> https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue= waiting for missing
>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to sh= ow how a prefix
>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD= at the edges of an
>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find some= thing similar in any sort
>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org= /html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition = of something new, has to be different
>> than
>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrappin= g", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>>>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say= that the idea of including a DHCPv6
>>>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different = wrapping", then that is not entirely true.
>>>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in= a single message exchange, there are
>>>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. Tha= t in itself is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that = as interesting. You will not save a round
>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each= other.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O b= its where there is a
>> cross-dependence
>>>> between the two
>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are s= upposed to wait until the RS/RA
>>>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv= 6 (two round trips). Are you saying
>>>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that th= e M&O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency= on the M&O bits. PD is a
>>>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits= - I am fine with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there ar= e fewer messages - two instead
>> of
>>>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind t= hat.
>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many b= ytes - the question is moreso
>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On so= me links, sending
>>>> everything in
>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to c= ollisions than requiring
>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "= ;breaker, breaker one-nine" you
>>>> get
>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason)= without having to undergo
>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That i= s not to say that common
>>>> data
>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but t= hey do have their CSMA
>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on som= eone else's transmission.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exac= tly same protocol semantics, just
>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exact= ly DHCPv6 - they are not
>>>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getti= ng why that is valuable. ND
>> is
>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable f= or per-router
>>>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent = as unicast (one-to-one).
>> In
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in t= he RS message is
>> indication
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still strugglin= g with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an
>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be= a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk ab= out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6= ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/v6ops
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--00000000000007a489057b1c889a-- From nobody Tue Nov 20 10:15:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB321130E79; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:15:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id clrRy6RsUBkI; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20444130DCD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id p6so2039217lfc.1; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:14:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UEAyHwQmhhPn9u0PtYtLBNVmBW1cQXlZ11gqu+uABco=; b=BchFsRPql1yjc733RISQiKPcpNwt9wO0lqOV38Ps5thiTuXoLgcg0KZLrXeq9DX9rQ HzDnV5RePgpH+SvhFtgKr1JrxBoWoFc8CUqx3PRGk4QNzFunyS8urK0B68lnzUci7bl+ icDsUKrwtthEPkPXYAGDy6qZIqGd+oNWBdGKveIxDy+cUa0wvVmvyz2y+/NAXvnsR+gG MI6zJ71ief87TXtox2VABuoExJOcc3qCLqFNYlTYAAMfxrcaalWuErTcxVdJDZj9YkXT MtolBgNa4im2Gc7icLqbngfXgOzreQPh7Fht7tWW5u13cIT3MLIY60hbUha38DtFuRsQ QT/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UEAyHwQmhhPn9u0PtYtLBNVmBW1cQXlZ11gqu+uABco=; b=jDEvk/4qijXzu589GzxOT5Nlynr2C30+c9rcQhjNns7eMnFk2oB1uTP63TBdEBSd53 uozxPLEau7q+JB1dXGKhV7Nj7u5rfllckWW1KtxJh/gCc+gbYZkaSNwDyXdD5uIUsDT+ v7VmEzqKZlw89StHeCYEGfhTZ/8wpi5xs5Kha7AhUu54KmBuVLMBHRscHChu5b+2fC7b a9/J3zrD9tM+0Bfjl4GTwLDHn1HgOx4yFOLAfH1qI2H9BzjVTrIRoE75i/L2k6GKm+gp X+XJBsdSbBiLTolSAYrROnfkmbYq5V55t4e5YRTcixvmooxCqxzUTE+ZFUfDXFiAskV0 DjeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIl6R0ASq1WKvjeLXlB1zhmJwc/oAV+M0cBwe+SMYYWQhfhFBql oKGsadq7vt0OkmjMsao02k/5cStqvXcGtl1/Q6FqBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fAgmAN/EPwS4KJ+9I6XrwZ/HmoLGON7oo4Qr3bd0kYr0x/zf3VeK+uc2zVm4UlxR/lHb1zkid0kMisl7oZ1D0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:26ce:: with SMTP id m197mr1648191lfm.23.1542737696024; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:14:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> <7374C275-3FF0-4A5B-9E9E-4D9AA1220B63@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <7374C275-3FF0-4A5B-9E9E-4D9AA1220B63@employees.org> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:44:32 +0530 Message-ID: To: Ole Troan Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a6bd6057b1c9c58" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:15:08 -0000 --0000000000005a6bd6057b1c9c58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ole, Refined my problem statements below. Please let me know if this is okay. Yours, Naveen. On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 23:46, Ole Troan wrote: > Naveen, > > I don=E2=80=99t understand the problem description below, nor why it woul= d require > a different solution than any of those we already have. > > Does anyone else understand and can translate? > > Cheers > Ole > > On 18 Nov 2018, at 18:51, Naveen Kottapalli > wrote: > > Hello Ole, > > Please find comments inline. > > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen > > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole Troan >> Hi Naveen, >> >> While the purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not >> be for the rest of us. >> >> Can you please describe the problem you are trying to solve? >> > Naveen] Below is the description of problems that are being tried to solv= e: > 1. Soliciting any prefix of pre configured length using RS / RA is not > currently supported. Lack of this forces the devices to be at disposal o= f > routers. We can have it implemented in both of our CPE and router. But t= he > solution wouldn't be compliant or inter-operable. The reason why existin= g > solutions can't be used is mentioned below. > 2. Lingering SLAAC prefixes at router. Some of the prefixes that were > assigned to hosts by our router are lingering though the host interface i= s > brought down and the prefix isn't used anymore. > 3. Devices lose ongoing data connectivity when mobility happens. Hosts > during mobility are losing the existing ongoing traffic sessions due to > SLAAC prefix change. This is because when the gateway detects mobility to= a > different tunnel the existing session will be cleared and a new session > entry is created. During this process there is no guarantee that the same > prefix will be assigned back to the device. > >> >> Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your problem= ? >> > Naveen] All the prefixes were assigned using SLAAC and there is no > solution till date to solicit or release a specific prefix. It's not just > specific prefix, but the only existing solution to get a non /64 prefix i= s > only through DHCPv6, which can't be done in the CPE. > >> >> Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem = description I am >> hoping for. >> > Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use case where prefix length less than > 64. I see this as more like soliciting a prefix pool. All the host / CPE > does is soliciting a prefix of desired length by including existing optio= ns > in RS. But why a host or CPE soliciting a prefix (which is already done = by > them) without introducing new message types or options should be a proble= m? > >> >> Cheers >> Ole >> >> On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli >> wrote: >> >> Hello Ole, >> >> Following are the things that am trying to solve. >> >> 1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked for. >> 2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a >> prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equal= ly >> more important for the protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an >> important resource for the router). >> >> Please let me know which of the above points you think are not valid. >> >> Thanks & Regards, >> Naveen >> >> >> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan > >>> Naveen, >>> >>> Let me quote from RFC1958: >>> >>> 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. >>> If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has >>> successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unles= s >>> there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same >>> protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without >>> of course using this argument to reject improvements. >>> >>> >>> What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80= =99t >>> covered by existing solutions? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ole >>> >>> > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hello all, >>> > >>> > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing >>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality = and >>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft >>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usabl= e. >>> > >>> > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the >>> router using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO i= t's >>> very unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed >>> in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When >>> this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it = as a >>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>> > >>> > If a device soliciting required information using the existing >>> protocol standards without new message types or option types or flags >>> itself is treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't >>> there overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to = the >>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am= I >>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to = each >>> other? >>> > >>> > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected >>> members of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current >>> draft suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It >>> shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure >>> people keep inventing round-about solutions for the same. >>> > >>> > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, >>> please suggest another change for that. >>> > >>> > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing >>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chair= s to >>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >>> > >>> > Yours, >>> > Naveen. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > in line.. >>> > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> > > Hi Brian, >>> > > >>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>> > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < >>> otroan@employees.org> >>> > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >>> > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> > >> >>> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> > >>> HI Ole, >>> > >>> >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>> > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >>> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Ole, >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>> > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >>> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Fred, >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < >>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>> > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>> > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >>> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >>> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> Fred, >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. >>> But am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>> > >> support >>> > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>> > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>> > >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>> > >>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridg= e >>> refers to the >>> > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix >>> delegation. Is that what >>> > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> Sure. >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol fo= r >>> Prefix Delegation >>> > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in >>> addition to that. I don't >>> > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wit= h >>> it? >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple >>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a >>> waste of time and resources. >>> > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t = have a >>> satisfactory solution... >>> > >>> >>> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to >>> Prefix Delegation >>> > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. >>> (I add this >>> > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other >>> non-protocol >>> > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>> > >> >>> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, >>> but there >>> > >> are some subtleties: >>> > >> >>> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop >>> people >>> > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply >>> appear >>> > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF >>> protocols >>> > >> are concerned. >>> > > >>> > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on o= ur >>> > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >>> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >>> > > >>> > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services >>> > > >>> > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered >>> according >>> > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by >>> DHCPv6 >>> > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging ha= s >>> > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >>> > > >>> > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary >>> IPAMs, >>> > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >>> > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>> > > >>> > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments >>> based >>> > > on these recent discussions? >>> > >>> > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such a= s >>> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the >>> > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management >>> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different >>> discussiion. >>> > >>> > Brian >>> > >>> > > >>> > > Thanks - Fred >>> > > >>> > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >>> > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >>> > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >>> > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sor= t >>> > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>> > >> >>> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>> > >> >>> > >> Brian >>> > >> >>> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different >>> than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 >>> protocol proposals? >>> > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv= 6 >>> option in RS/RA messages >>> > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely >>> true. By including both the IPv6 >>> > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there >>> are fewer messages >>> > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sav= e a round >>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a >>> cross-dependence between the two >>> > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the >>> RS/RA exchange and check the >>> > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you >>> saying that that is no longer >>> > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a >>> protocol between routers. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>> > >>> >>> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instea= d >>> of four. That matters >>> > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>> > >>>> Use header compression then. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is >>> moreso how >>> > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending >>> everything in >>> > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requirin= g >>> multiple >>> > >>> channel accesses. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" >>> you get >>> > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to >>> undergo >>> > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that commo= n >>> data >>> > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA >>> protocols >>> > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >>> > >>> >>> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, jus= t >>> options in ND instead of DHCP. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not >>> different than DHCPv6. >>> > >>>>> That is the whole point. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. N= D >>> is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter >>> > >>>> delegation. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one)= . >>> In this >>> > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is >>> indication that >>> > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Thanks - Fred >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Cheers >>> > >>>> Ole >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Cheers >>> > >>>>>> Ole >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensi= ons=E2=80=9D of >>> an IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a >>> > >> lot >>> > >>>>>> more >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>> > >>>>>>>> Ole >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> v6ops mailing list >>> > >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> > >>> >>> > > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > v6ops mailing list >>> > v6ops@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> --0000000000005a6bd6057b1c9c58 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ole,

Refined my problem statement= s below.=C2=A0 Please let me know if this is okay.

Yours,
Naveen.


On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 23:46, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
=
Naveen,

I= don=E2=80=99t understand the problem description below, nor why it would r= equire a different solution than any of those we already have.=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
Does anyone else understand and = can translate?

Cheers=C2= =A0
Ole

On 18 Nov 2018, at = 18:51, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ole,

Please find comments inline.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen


On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org wrote:
Hi Naveen,

While the= purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not be for the r= est of us.=C2=A0

Can you p= lease describe the problem you are trying to solve?
Naveen] Below is the description of problems= that are being tried to solve:
1. Soliciting any pr= efix of pre configured length using RS / RA is not currently supported.=C2= =A0 Lack of this forces the devices to be at disposal of routers.=C2=A0 We = can have it implemented in both of our CPE and router. But the solution wou= ldn't be compliant or inter-operable.=C2=A0 The reason why existing sol= utions can't be used is mentioned below.
2. Ling= ering SLAAC prefixes at router.=C2=A0 Some of the prefixes that were assign= ed to hosts by our router are lingering though the host interface is brough= t down and the prefix isn't used anymore.
3. Dev= ices lose ongoing data connectivity when mobility happens.=C2=A0 Hosts duri= ng mobility are losing the existing ongoing traffic sessions due to SLAAC p= refix change. This is because when the gateway detects mobility to a differ= ent tunnel the existing session will be cleared and a new session entry is = created. During this process there is no guarantee that the same prefix wil= l be assigned back to the device.

Can you please describe = how existing solutions do not solve your problem?
<= /div>
Naveen] All the prefixes were assigned using S= LAAC and there is no solution till date to solicit or release a specific pr= efix. It's not just specific prefix, but the only existing solution to = get a non /64 prefix is only through DHCPv6, which can't be done in the= CPE.

Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem de= scription I am hoping for.
Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use case where prefix length less t= han 64. I see this as more like soliciting a prefix pool.=C2=A0 All the hos= t / CPE does is soliciting a prefix of desired length by including existing= options in RS.=C2=A0 But why a host or CPE soliciting a prefix (which is a= lready done by them) without introducing new message types or options shoul= d be a problem?

Cheers=C2=A0
Ole

O= n 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ole,

F= ollowing are the things that am trying to solve.
1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked = for.
2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing o= ptions like soliciting a prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a= prefix (this is equally more important for the protocol perspective itself= as a prefix is an important resource for the router).

Please let me know which of the above points= you think are not valid.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen


Naveen,

Let me quote from RFC1958:

3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, ha= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution= unless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0there is a good technical reason not to.=C2=A0 Duplication of = the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, w= ithout
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of course using this argument to reject improvements.


What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99t= covered by existing solutions?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.= sarma@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing pro= tocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where this dr= aft solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usabl= e.
>
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the route= r using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's v= ery unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.=C2=A0 = When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it= as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoco= l standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is tr= eated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overl= apping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?=C2= =A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I wr= ong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each o= ther?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected member= s of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sug= gested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become standards.=C2=A0 It= shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure peop= le keep inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pleas= e suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing exten= sions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the forum and WG chairs to= evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.c= arpenter@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
> >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin= @boeing.com>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>= ;
> >> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <= ;ipv6@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-navee= n-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>
> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> >>> HI Ole,
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees= .org]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
> >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L= .Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma= @gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <= ;v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for dra= ft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L &l= t;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ole,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@e= mployees.org]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
> >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <nave= en.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops = list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification= for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), F= red L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ole,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:= otroan@employees.org]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57= PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>= ; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Noti= fication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent th= at DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more reso= urces at router to
> >> support
> >>>>>>>> DHCPv6
> >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC.<= br> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite di= fferent from SLAAC.
> >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water unde= r the bridge. Since 2003.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment,= the water under the bridge refers to the
> >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the pro= tocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
> >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the= * chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
> >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-b= ased protocol in addition to that. I don't
> >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the= community agree with it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid pro= viding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail= .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and onl= y solution?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already so= lved is a waste of time and resources.
> >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don= =E2=80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
> >>>
> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solut= ion to Prefix Delegation
> >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is n= eeded*. (I add this
> >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'= ; lists other non-protocol
> >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>
> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF so= lution, but there
> >> are some subtleties:
> >>
> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually= stop people
> >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would sim= ply appear
> >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far a= s the IETF protocols
> >> are concerned.
> >
> > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on= our
> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we<= br> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that docum= ent:
> >
> > "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must be cons= idered according
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example service is t= hat offered by DHCPv6
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based on IPv= 6 ND messaging has
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive= -bit].
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as pro= prietary IPAMs,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >
> > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments= based
> > on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals suc= h as
> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management<= br> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiio= n.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
> >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mi= ssing
> >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix=
> >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges o= f an
> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar i= n any sort
> >> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
> >>
> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
> >> https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something ne= w, has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are yo= u are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
> >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea = of including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
> >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping",= then that is not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
> >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messa= ge exchange, there are fewer messages
> >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is = interesting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting.= You will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depe= nd on each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there= is a cross-dependence between the two
> >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait= until the RS/RA exchange and check the
> >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tr= ips). Are you saying that that is no longer
> >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits = are deprecated?
> >>>>
> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O= bits. PD is a protocol between routers.
> >>>
> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine wi= th that.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer message= s - two instead of four. That matters
> >>>>> a great deal on low end links.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
> >>>> Use header compression then.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the ques= tion is moreso how
> >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendi= ng everything in
> >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than = requiring multiple
> >>> channel accesses.
> >>>
> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, break= er one-nine" you get
> >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having= to undergo
> >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say th= at common data
> >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have the= ir CSMA protocols
> >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's= transmission.)
> >>>
> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoc= ol semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - the= y are not different than DHCPv6.
> >>>>> That is the whole point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is = valuable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable fo= r per-router
> >>>> delegation.
> >>>
> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one= -to-one). In this
> >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message i= s indication that
> >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Ole
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80= =9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that so= lved that problem, would be a
> >> lot
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/v6ops

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Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwg Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:51:56 +0000 Message-ID: <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> 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Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAA05WuYAAGKwgAAAwZEAADONajI= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 19:30:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:B43C0B8B37CEC2541AD89F5F107E679062A78E451D057DB68048BCE533E6FD59; UpperCasedChecksum:BB328674D172712272139E19DAD39F3A2AAFC4695DF0F6D48F048B28F8187FA3; SizeAsReceived:8434; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [CabITYlVFSZhqAVYlopFuwYbe5c2Wglo] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT116; 6:z8ZOAjLUCFI3nd2JlNnlD3XISaPZsieGHNxhp5YvoGSRVkdEIYJiCOvUT0/nWwdAdrg0OaefnVoUknpJ8lU1HA5dUSMaBcSOr4czX3V/eMLYzXVHqpWdrbvvJFmPfNvSb4QT6uiTwU2vBPKtdH8yfDgTaxSaFkTQ7/OI6U7I97sSbjwja/WUsJGz+EZiFJLpxUX0FiXGTSBnQ5cR9PCGDCfv7sxqVc5LjQWxg+IO3YPGLWDwMKdxOGHMX9H1IVahed7I7C1IA1E+yFPEv2qZLJmlbA+VyoSzjKE0NxNQupnZQfylqK4+ytYaz3wEUcQKU5+DiiH8NCqRjF7rvwIlwkTnYeiT0cPDrziJv9RoL44PZFiF7/7NSm+S7vW8D19x8bcdaVFGY+oSxTtzMA3z1OKxsgz3JigV2chBJliG7qY0q8W2Bpx54fsQCKrcpKQ8wCircRTZo+koCqYe/PtC4g==; 5:n6A67V9u+rXqCXznqKiQWxQWUbjPkOVucFh5WcMIId7pVXN6e1uorSzQKUTQey38+3W0sZJOY2atfZk0jt4LFD3FrwaL5Akv7T3N6rkSF9MVHimtE+uIk4+I7FgUXNC48FqpISU9Dhl04F+kD4KGf18VuLdtZqaxvF5StPR5kZY=; 7:tjaEPPmZe7KkkcXpYwBCHIuToXC7BKm9Ua4YWxcXae2bD3FzXIcyhoyn2sP9C85rB7fJQ0s/0PoZUwzuG7k1jd3O9k30fY2Ntu4ne/FsIIwmRytxJfEtMqkSz+poGhV783TymbabOIV72edJwvRqug== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT116; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT116: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT116; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT116; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qcGZVNC8h9ltIjjd9YPQESQK7aTZ5Q9alD9r4Tkb0ifu6JwGuQAv0laAFNxMW62q Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB6PR0402MB293656A47BD5EE7252A4DE91AED90DB6PR0402MB2936_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e08dc4fa-7bba-4197-9f42-08d64f1e9bbd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2018 19:30:19.9372 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT116 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 19:30:28 -0000 --_000_DB6PR0402MB293656A47BD5EE7252A4DE91AED90DB6PR0402MB2936_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, but I don't have experience with the ieee, I tried to contact them = (Ethernet WG chair) to know how to use their website to submit a draft but = I got no response till now. First, I read about 10 pages to get information about how they work, but st= ill unclear how the standardization process go there. Khaled ________________________________ From: Warren Kumari Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54:12 PM To: Ted Lemon Cc: Khaled Omar; Simon Hobson; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon > wrote: Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF. Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS (and 6M= AN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to disc= uss this. W On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different values, = but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new d= igital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information carried (= I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits can be eencod= ed on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to compress 32= bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing an = IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fract= ional IPv4 address). Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics. Thanks, Khaled ________________________________ From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 = bits can be represented by 5 bits. For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of pha= se, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance issues = such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that change to= lerance over time. That's without taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon s= ampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies. It's basically a non starter. Kindest regards, Olivier -- Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --_000_DB6PR0402MB293656A47BD5EE7252A4DE91AED90DB6PR0402MB2936_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, but I don't have experience with the ieee, I tried to contact them = (Ethernet WG chair) to know how to use their website to submit a draft but = I got no response till now.

First, I read about 10 pages to get information about how they work, but st= ill unclear how the standardization process go there.

Khaled
From: Warren Kumari <war= ren@kumari.net>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54:12 PM
To: Ted Lemon
Cc: Khaled Omar; Simon Hobson; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 


On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for th= e IETF. 


Indee= d. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS (and 6MAN) -= - the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) ma= y be a place worth trying to discuss this.
W
 
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outl= ook.com> wrote:
There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the= main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the n= ew signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different values, = but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream into a new digital stream with limited values,= no.2 the amount of information carried (I.e. what is the standard track th= at determines how many bits can be eencoded on every one output), no.3 comp= ressing normal binary bits to compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compressing = an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fr= actional IPv4 address).

Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came her= e took us to other topics.

Thanks,

Khaled
From: Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 


On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. The = problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem i= s that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue TV= signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's without = taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

--=20
Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.=
gih.com/ocl.html

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


--
I don't think the execution is r= elevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf
--_000_DB6PR0402MB293656A47BD5EE7252A4DE91AED90DB6PR0402MB2936_-- From nobody Tue Nov 20 12:02:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B582130EB8; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sV3Xx47AmVCa; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECA6C130E5B; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id f12-v6so1876764plo.1; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YdHU0Se5PjcDlFQKtJQi1fEbLnnGbS8EMLBmibKTe+c=; b=XjGtm2OI5p9TE1wYfqJVxiCBar4gytxP/VR7K0YCxAN2OO+2qjSj5EQpuUJ6DwDXpG gzRZnjUJqDePCgfh/PQsiaSbGCtSCI+JCa5glNl+0xNoUK7MbG6U11qAjRcieI5Eqfgb JI1Vh3yawgAh6EMa3bMP50HWnY8BTYuTbrVw5uGhPHiK9APghsumxIUuNTOTgc9LKL5o cO7ra9k85hrBLteJn2BODRSTn09OF8iUHL6jVNWv4nh6HnufHHCpqM5WjsGNl44o1Jrb 6AgIZ/2Zb+BYuZYswc1Xb/8wtn+3lC0xIVTSmhpRjFN90wxj3rHf1lZsr7aPCNqFtYO5 eUFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YdHU0Se5PjcDlFQKtJQi1fEbLnnGbS8EMLBmibKTe+c=; b=WvbMJsIGU93KdoyRxW0gDhQiO/Wjri6dGDTUxtPcR5+OKPa86nQc/0sO5idZeZV2nR or/InKqCx0LnGU5UmDukIM4A9cAlY5JQVi0qbwoODWFEqyVgHJQSWqe+8se9I33giLWl AWzaw5oEsMwmLMM4ONBiEgQuZoUgrxMcSAT5hxQVcm3HmNTmjeioZcb0TGmPjQJ5DulG R9Lp11papWTIceck3XuQkuTUAGkAvE5PHLHFpWks8oQDDZ9q21oWlYQ64pCy6Qwdb9Ey BOqx1g8JQ0ktH5LfFPFwSeyn7q6krwmzokuIyThRKwVVSdr9hq04rOeHCyPSMO7dxCqh R0og== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWavvy+wDsdBHTCM8Od01H/2qDjt28EIRdDB5EwloSosC4TocP5w pQcRwM97g+UfhZwdWVOPOqaQEvUf X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X+DSDShLiIkXL7ig5Drcj1oPHAILVmpzBQ5u6pA4BsgFBdM4w5Ff++mtvB6VKcrICEZ9wVyw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:314c:: with SMTP id x73mr3183441pgx.323.1542744101895; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g15sm111836143pfj.131.2018.11.20.12.01.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:01:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:01:59 -0000 On 2018-11-21 07:08, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Hello Brian, >=20 > Comments inline. The same from me... >=20 > Yours, > Naveen. >=20 >=20 > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 >> On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: >>> Hello Brian, >>> >>> Please find comments inline. >>> >>> Thanks & Regards, >>> Naveen >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: >>>>> Hello Brian, >>>>> >>>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource >>>> allocation >>>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that >> missing >>>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to >> function >>>>> even with proposed protocol? >>>> >>>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism= >>>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously.= >>>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicit= ed >>>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning = a >>>> prefix, which are totally different actions. >>>> >>> >>> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolic= ited >>> and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my >> current >>> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is >> received >>> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning th= e >>> prefix unsolicited. >> >> Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understan= d >> your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or >> by DHCPv6-ND. >> > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member= > mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gatew= ay > too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from dev= ices > directly tunneled over GRE. =20 Can you explain that in more detail? Is that how a homenet would get a /48 for example? > Consider the case of described in RFC8273, > where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it > needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation o= r > assignment. There is a very fundamental difference between RFC8273 and your proposal.= In RFC8273 the target host *does not know* that the /64 prefix is single-use. In no way is that prefix delegated to the host; it is simply the prefix it may use for forming its own address. (It is not even marked as an on-link prefix, since the L bit is specified to be off.) >>> So, since both node and router will have context of >>> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF= for >>> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of= >> this >>> in next version of draft. >> >> But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. >> > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. I must have missed that in the text. Which section? >=20 >> >>>> >>>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice= >>>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You >> really >>>> need some kind of two-phase commit. >>> >>> >>> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of >> losing >>> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more d= elay >>> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as = the >>> retry mechanism is in place. >> >> A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being >> allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest >> that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of >> four messages. >> > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can b= e a > subject of future study. >=20 >> >>> I would rather say that the resource is never >>> lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is alloc= ated >>> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will >> anyway >>> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocat= ed >>> prefix. >> >> But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requiremen= t >> for safe resource allocation. >> >>> >>> The standard RA doesn't have this >>>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it i= s >>>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter= =2E >>>> >>> >>> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, did= n't >>> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one propose= d in >>> this draft. What kind of difference do you see? >> >> As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". >> Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different >> statement. >> > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever di= dn't > go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in > existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? Only a router that owns a pool of prefixes can delegate them using DHCPv6-PD, and I don't see why it would be any different for your proposal. >> >>>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential >>>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or >>>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 >>>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an >>>> identifier for the box.) >>>> >>> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers >>> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router c= an >> log >>> using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our= >>> router. >> >> /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested= =2E >> Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But >> if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. >=20 > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solut= ion > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is= > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. If the need is to reproduce all DHCPv6 features inside RS/RA, is there really a saving in complexity and footprint? Brian >=20 >> >> Brian >> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the te= rm >>>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool= =2E >>>> >>>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the= >>>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of= a >>>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >>>> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to just= ify. >>>> Why do that? >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if am wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks & Regards, >>>>> Naveen >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>> Naveen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA >> messages >>>>>> requires >>>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (nam= ely, >>>>>> DHCPv6). >>>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but= >>>>>> requires a >>>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My >>>> feeling >>>>>> is that once >>>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much lik= e >>>>>> DHCPv6, and >>>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol sho= uld >> be >>>>>> DHCPv6, >>>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot li= ke >>>>>> DHCPv6? >>>>>> >>>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property= >> that >>>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can b= uild >>>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of >>>>>> transactional >>>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource >> allocation. >>>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM >>>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>>>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; >>>>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existin= g >>>>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functiona= lity >>>> and >>>>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this >> draft >>>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not >>>> usable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the >> router >>>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it'= s >> very >>>>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed >> in >>>> RS >>>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When = this >>>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it = as a >>>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing >> protocol >>>>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itsel= f is >>>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't ther= e >>>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to t= he >>>>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6= ? >> Am >>>> I >>>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocol= s to >>>> each >>>>>> other? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected >> members >>>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current dr= aft >>>>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It s= hows >>>> the >>>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people= >> keep >>>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, >> please >>>>>> suggest another change for that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing >>>>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG >>>> chairs to >>>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>> Naveen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>>>>>> in line.. >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Brian, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >> >>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>>> otroan@employees.org>> >>>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG= < >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>>>>> HI Ole, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>>> ; >>>>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote= : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ole, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>>> ; >>>>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote= : >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>>> ; >>>>>> v6ops list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire= =2E >> But >>>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to >>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the br= idge >>>>>> refers to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix >> delegation. >>>>>> Is that what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol= for >>>>>> Prefix Delegation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in >>>>>> addition to that. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree = with >>>> it? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multipl= e >>>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution?= >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is = a >>>> waste >>>>>> of time and resources. >>>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99= t have a >>>>>> satisfactory solution... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution t= o >>>>>> Prefix Delegation >>>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed= *. >> (I >>>>>> add this >>>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other= >>>>>> non-protocol >>>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution= , >> but >>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> are some subtleties: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop >> people >>>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simpl= y >>>> appear >>>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF >>>> protocols >>>>>>>>> are concerned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based o= n >> our >>>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we= >>>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered >>>> according >>>>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by= >>>> DHCPv6 >>>>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging= has >>>>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary >> IPAMs, >>>>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >>>>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustment= s >>>> based >>>>>>>> on these recent discussions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals su= ch >> as >>>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as = the >>>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manage= ment >>>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different >>>> discussiion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-= 07 >>>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for miss= ing >>>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >>>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of = an >>>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any = sort >>>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be differe= nt >>>> than >>>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHC= Pv6 >>>>>> protocol proposals? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DH= CPv6 >>>>>> option in RS/RA messages >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely >> true. >>>>>> By including both the IPv6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, ther= e >> are >>>>>> fewer messages >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not = save a round >>>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a >>>> cross-dependence >>>>>> between the two >>>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the >> RS/RA >>>>>> exchange and check the >>>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you >> saying >>>>>> that that is no longer >>>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated?= >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is= a >>>>>> protocol between routers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two ins= tead >>>> of >>>>>> four. That matters >>>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >>>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is >> moreso >>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending >>>>>> everything in >>>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requi= ring >>>>>> multiple >>>>>>>>>> channel accesses. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nin= e" >> you >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to >> undergo >>>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that co= mmon >>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CS= MA >>>>>> protocols >>>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission= =2E) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, = just >>>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not >>>>>> different than DHCPv6. >>>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable= =2E ND >>>> is >>>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-r= outer >>>>>>>>>>> delegation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-o= ne). >>>> In >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is >>>> indication >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless exte= nsions=E2=80=9D of >> an >>>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a >>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 20 12:06:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0A2130DC6 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OQ2GhMhybSub for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E7D2130DCF for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECB141C6E for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:06:13 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F97E41C6A; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:06:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 5EF1B747DD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:06:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:06:13 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list Message-ID: <20181120200613.GF72840@Space.Net> References: <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:06:18 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 09:01:37AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solution > > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > If the need is to reproduce all DHCPv6 features inside RS/RA, is there > really a saving in complexity and footprint? This. And I do not see why a platform that refuses to implement DHCPv6-ND today would all of a sudden grow a liking for DHCPv6-disguised-in-RS/RA (which would need code changes as well). I do not think this is a useful way to spend energy. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Nov 20 12:14:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B9012D4E9; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJQ5MX-pQ6JJ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D04D812785F; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAKKEPEP044508; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:14:25 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKKEOcD044504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:14:24 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:23 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:14:23 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Gert Doering , Brian E Carpenter CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRABAM7OXwAAJJuA Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:14:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> <20181120200613.GF72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181120200613.GF72840@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 4CAB179B5C09174316A3BA490A1105E9EC86CF29DEE845580CDD72EBE04AEB8F2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:14:28 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gert Doering > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:06 PM > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG > Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 09:01:37AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable sol= ution > > > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That = is > > > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of th= e > > > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > > If the need is to reproduce all DHCPv6 features inside RS/RA, is there > > really a saving in complexity and footprint? >=20 > This. >=20 > And I do not see why a platform that refuses to implement DHCPv6-ND > today would all of a sudden grow a liking for DHCPv6-disguised-in-RS/RA > (which would need code changes as well). We have already implemented DHCPv6-within-RS/RA. Our platform? OpenVPN. > I do not think this is a useful way to spend energy. >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael = Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Nov 20 12:42:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB66130DC6; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7OTHWrm7HxFq; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19DA512785F; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAKKgetJ019982; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:42:40 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKKgVpK019938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:42:31 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:30 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:42:30 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli CC: Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRABAKRRGQABPEAA Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:42:30 +0000 Message-ID: <70511fed2c55446798ed7f5cd4e76e83@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 0BF1E23DE989C7FBE03F116145BF26D773422570426E535C02D30F9FC610BC5B2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mc37BqSNInuU; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BC69130DCF; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:5:ac9:b1fb:9644:42bc:17d3] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:5:ac9:b1fb:9644:42bc:17d3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE5E0877C8; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:38:36 +0100 (CET) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , Ole Troan Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: 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6URpPOd13JhAyDe47cwsP1u9Y+OBvQTVLSvw7Liu2b4KjqL4lx++VdBi7dXsjJ6kjIRjI6Lb WVpxe8LumMCuVDepTafBZ49gr7Fgc4F9ZSCo6ChgQNLn6WDzIkqFX+42KuHz90AHWhuW+KZR 1aJylERWeTcMCGUSBptd48KniWmD6kPKpzwoMkJtEXTuO2lVuborxzwuqOTNuYg9lWDl7zKt wPI9brGzquUHy4qRrA== Message-ID: <17cd20b7-340f-4e53-4ce2-defd62d11a9a@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:46:30 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:38:47 -0000 On 20/11/18 12:37, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Fernando, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fgont@si6networks.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:07 PM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >> Subject: Re: DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) >> >> Fred, >> >> It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there seems >> to be close to null host support for SEND. I'd also argue that SEND has >> a very small ROI -- particularly when lots of other pieces of the >> "puzzle" remain to be secured. > > There needs to be a securing service for both IPv6ND and DHCPv6 to protect > the protocols. That means that, by unifying the two protocols, there only needs > to be one securing service; not two. SEND seems like a likely candidate. "Securing" as in being able to validate advertised data? Or as in "preventing e.g. a node to pretend it's a local router or dhcpv6 server"? Thanks, Fernando -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Nov 20 13:57:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9203130DEB; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MaEbWzQllWmM; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2503130DE7; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAKLv0UO063907; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:57:00 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.213]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAKLus7r063779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:56:54 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eed5::8988:eed5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:56:53 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:56:53 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fernando Gont , Ole Troan CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) Thread-Index: AdSAY36qtA2OERADQbW2hWLMfMBupQAdsXEAAAMBteAAET3QAAAEVTjg Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:56:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3aa37313cd0f4bc68acbc6da5d124209@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <17cd20b7-340f-4e53-4ce2-defd62d11a9a@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <17cd20b7-340f-4e53-4ce2-defd62d11a9a@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: DDA841AC2A2792C28CC736A55888BDCCD746952740CCD643407338FE8F59F5AD2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:57:08 -0000 SGkgRmVybmFuZG8sDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRmVy bmFuZG8gR29udCBbbWFpbHRvOmZnb250QHNpNm5ldHdvcmtzLmNvbV0NCj4gU2VudDogVHVlc2Rh eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjAsIDIwMTggNzo0NyBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwg PEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+OyBPbGUgVHJvYW4gPG90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMu b3JnPg0KPiBDYzogdjZvcHMgbGlzdCA8djZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyA2bWFuIFdHIDxpcHY2QGll dGYub3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogREhDUHY2L0lQVjZORCBhbmQgU0VORCAod2FzOiBSRTog W3Y2b3BzXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LW5hdmVlbi1zbGFhYy1w cmVmaXgtbWFuYWdlbWVudC0wMC50eHQpDQo+IA0KPiBPbiAyMC8xMS8xOCAxMjozNywgVGVtcGxp biAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4gSGkgRmVybmFuZG8sDQo+ID4NCj4gPj4gLS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gPj4gRnJvbTogRmVybmFuZG8gR29udCBbbWFpbHRvOmZn b250QHNpNm5ldHdvcmtzLmNvbV0NCj4gPj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxOSwgMjAx OCAxMDowNyBQTQ0KPiA+PiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgPEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGlu QGJvZWluZy5jb20+OyBPbGUgVHJvYW4gPG90cm9hbkBlbXBsb3llZXMub3JnPg0KPiA+PiBDYzog djZvcHMgbGlzdCA8djZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyA2bWFuIFdHIDxpcHY2QGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiA+ PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogREhDUHY2L0lQVjZORCBhbmQgU0VORCAod2FzOiBSRTogW3Y2b3BzXSBO ZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LW5hdmVlbi1zbGFhYy1wcmVmaXgtbWFu YWdlbWVudC0NCj4gMDAudHh0KQ0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBGcmVkLA0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBJdCB3b3Vs ZCBzZWVtIHRvIG1lIHRoYXQgd2hpbGUgd2UgZG8gaGF2ZSBhIHNwZWMgZm9yICJTRU5EIiwgdGhl cmUgc2VlbXMNCj4gPj4gdG8gYmUgY2xvc2UgdG8gbnVsbCBob3N0IHN1cHBvcnQgZm9yIFNFTkQu IEknZCBhbHNvIGFyZ3VlIHRoYXQgU0VORCBoYXMNCj4gPj4gYSB2ZXJ5IHNtYWxsIFJPSSAtLSBw YXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgd2hlbiBsb3RzIG9mIG90aGVyIHBpZWNlcyBvZiB0aGUNCj4gPj4gInB1enps ZSIgcmVtYWluIHRvIGJlIHNlY3VyZWQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGVyZSBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBhIHNl Y3VyaW5nIHNlcnZpY2UgZm9yIGJvdGggSVB2Nk5EIGFuZCBESENQdjYgdG8gcHJvdGVjdA0KPiA+ IHRoZSBwcm90b2NvbHMuIFRoYXQgbWVhbnMgdGhhdCwgYnkgdW5pZnlpbmcgdGhlIHR3byBwcm90 b2NvbHMsIHRoZXJlIG9ubHkgbmVlZHMNCj4gPiB0byBiZSBvbmUgc2VjdXJpbmcgc2VydmljZTsg bm90IHR3by4gU0VORCBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIGEgbGlrZWx5IGNhbmRpZGF0ZS4NCj4gDQo+ICJTZWN1 cmluZyIgYXMgaW4gYmVpbmcgYWJsZSB0byB2YWxpZGF0ZSBhZHZlcnRpc2VkIGRhdGE/IE9yIGFz IGluDQo+ICJwcmV2ZW50aW5nIGUuZy4gYSBub2RlIHRvIHByZXRlbmQgaXQncyBhIGxvY2FsIHJv dXRlciBvciBkaGNwdjYgc2VydmVyIj8NCg0KU2VjdXJpdHkgYXQgdGhlIElQdjZORCBsZXZlbCBp cyBhcy1zcGVjaWZpZWQgaW4gUkZDMzk3MSwgaS5lLiwgU0VORCBpcyB1c2VkDQp0byAicHJvdGVj dCB0aGUgaW50ZWdyaXR5IG9mIHRoZSBtZXNzYWdlcyBhbmQgYXV0aGVudGljYXRlIHRoZSBpZGVu dGl0eQ0Kb2YgdGhlaXIgc2VuZGVyIi4NCg0KSW4gdGVybXMgb2YgREhDUHY2LCBpdCBtZWFucyB0 aGF0IHRoZSBjbGllbnQgY2FuIGJlIGFzc3VyZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUNCnJlbGF5L3NlcnZlciBpcyB3 aG8gaXQgY2xhaW1zIHRvIGJlLCBhbmQgdGhlcmVmb3JlIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgY2FuIGFjY2VwdA0K YW55IGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaGFuZGVkIGRvd24uIEl0IGFsc28gbWVhbnMg dGhhdCB0aGUNCnNlcnZlciBjYW5ub3QgYmUgc3Bvb2ZlZCBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgaW5mb3Jt YXRpb24gaW50ZW5kZWQgZm9yDQphIHRydXN0ZWQgY2xpZW50ICdBJyB0byBhIHJvZ3VlIGNsaWVu dCAnQicgd2hvIGlzIHByZXRlbmRpbmcgdG8gYmUgJ0EnLg0KDQpEb2VzIHRoYXQgYW5zd2VyIHlv dXIgcXVlc3Rpb24/DQoNClRoYW5rcyAtIEZyZWQNCg0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IEZlcm5hbmRvDQo+ IA0KPiAtLQ0KPiBGZXJuYW5kbyBHb250DQo+IFNJNiBOZXR3b3Jrcw0KPiBlLW1haWw6IGZnb250 QHNpNm5ldHdvcmtzLmNvbQ0KPiBQR1AgRmluZ2VycHJpbnQ6IDY2NjYgMzFDNiBENDg0IDYzQjIg OEZCMSBFM0M0IEFFMjUgMEQ1NSAxRDRFIDc0OTINCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 20 18:12:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5DC127598; 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Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:12:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:42:10 +0530 Message-ID: To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce1882057b2347ff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 02:12:30 -0000 --000000000000ce1882057b2347ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Am aware that there are many open source softwares available. But the use cases that I mentioned in my draft holds good with what I mentioned below. I agree you suggested to include Nonce in RS / RA. That's why your contribution is recognized and your name is mentioned in the draft under *contributors*. But the whole idea of doing something with just RS / RA with out the need of new option flags or message types was from me which we discussed in call. If you want we can take this discussion we can take offline. Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L Hi Naveen, > > > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand that; there are a number of very good > publicly-available DHCPv6 > > implementations that support prefix delegation today. And, to instrument > RS/RA to > > perform prefix delegation under a new protocol would require a non-trivia= l > amount > > of new code. So, why not just use DHCPv6? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > PS Please also do not forget that the idea of using the Nonce as a > transaction ID > > vessel came from me. > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM > *To:* Brian E Carpenter > *Cc:* Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Hello Brian, > > > > Comments inline. > > > Yours, > Naveen. > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Please find comments inline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>> Hello Brian, > >>> > >>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > >> allocation > >>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that > missing > >>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to > function > >>> even with proposed protocol? > >> > >> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > >> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > >> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited > >> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a > >> prefix, which are totally different actions. > >> > > > > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicit= ed > > and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my > current > > knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is > received > > from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the > > prefix unsolicited. > > Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand > your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or > by DHCPv6-ND. > > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member > mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gateway > too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devic= es > directly tunneled over GRE. Consider the case of described in RFC8273, > where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it > needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or > assignment. > > > > So, since both node and router will have context of > > prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF f= or > > nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of > this > > in next version of draft. > > But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. > > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. > > > >> > >> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > >> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You > really > >> need some kind of two-phase commit. > > > > > > Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of > losing > > a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more del= ay > > in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as th= e > > retry mechanism is in place. > > A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being > allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest > that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of > four messages. > > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can be = a > subject of future study. > > > > I would rather say that the resource is never > > lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocat= ed > > even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will > anyway > > retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated > > prefix. > > But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement > for safe resource allocation. > > > > > The standard RA doesn't have this > >> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is > >> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. > >> > > > > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn'= t > > want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in > > this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > > As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". > Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different > statement. > > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever didn= 't > go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in > existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? > > > >> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > >> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > >> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > >> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > >> identifier for the box.) > >> > > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > > configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can > log > > using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > > router. > > /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested. > Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But > if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > Brian > > > > >> > >>> > >>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > >>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. > >> > >> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > >> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a > >> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justif= y. > >> Why do that? > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>> Please correct me if am wrong. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>> Naveen, > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA > messages > >>>> requires > >>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namel= y, > >>>> DHCPv6). > >>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >>>> requires a > >>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > >> feeling > >>>> is that once > >>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > >>>> DHCPv6, and > >>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol shoul= d > be > >>>> DHCPv6, > >>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > >>>> DHCPv6? > >>>> > >>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property > that > >>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can bui= ld > >>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >>>> transactional > >>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource > allocation. > >>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > >> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello all, > >>>>> > >>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > >>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionali= ty > >> and > >>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this > draft > >>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > >> usable. > >>>>> > >>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the > router > >>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's > very > >>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included > in > >> RS > >>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When th= is > >>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as= a > >>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>>>> > >>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing > protocol > >>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself = is > >>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > >>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > >>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? > Am > >> I > >>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to > >> each > >>>> other? > >>>>> > >>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected > members > >>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draf= t > >>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It sho= ws > >> the > >>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people > keep > >>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>>>> > >>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, > please > >>>> suggest another change for that. > >>>>> > >>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > >> chairs to > >>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yours, > >>>>> Naveen. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> in line.. > >>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brian, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. > But > >>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the brid= ge > >>>> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix > delegation. > >>>> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol f= or > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >>>> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wi= th > >> it? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > >>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > >> waste > >>>> of time and resources. > >>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t= have a > >>>> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. > (I > >>>> add this > >>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >>>> non-protocol > >>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, > but > >>>> there > >>>>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop > people > >>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > >> appear > >>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > >> protocols > >>>>>>> are concerned. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on > our > >>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > >> according > >>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > >> DHCPv6 > >>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging h= as > >>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary > IPAMs, > >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments > >> based > >>>>>> on these recent discussions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such > as > >>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as th= e > >>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manageme= nt > >>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > >> discussiion. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missin= g > >>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any so= rt > >>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > >> than > >>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv= 6 > >>>> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCP= v6 > >>>> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely > true. > >>>> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there > are > >>>> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sa= ve a round > >>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > >> cross-dependence > >>>> between the two > >>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the > RS/RA > >>>> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you > saying > >>>> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > >>>> protocol between routers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two inste= ad > >> of > >>>> four. That matters > >>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is > moreso > >>>> how > >>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >>>> everything in > >>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiri= ng > >>>> multiple > >>>>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" > you > >>>> get > >>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to > undergo > >>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that comm= on > >>>> data > >>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > >>>> protocols > >>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, ju= st > >>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >>>> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. = ND > >> is > >>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter > >>>>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one= ). > >> In > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > >> indication > >>>> that > >>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extens= ions=E2=80=9D of > an > >>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --000000000000ce1882057b2347ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

A= m aware that there are many open source softwares available. But the use ca= ses that I mentioned in my draft holds good with what I mentioned below.

I agree you suggested to i= nclude Nonce in RS / RA. That's why your contribution is recognized and= your name is mentioned in the draft under *contributors*. But the whole id= ea of doing something with just RS / RA with out the need of new option fla= gs or message types was from me which we discussed in call. If you want we = can take this discussion we can take offline.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018= , 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com wrote:

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by hono= rable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t understand that; ther= e are a number of very good publicly-available DHCPv6<= /p>

implementations that support prefix d= elegation today. And, to instrument RS/RA to

perform prefix delegation under a new= protocol would require a non-trivial amount

of new code. So, why not just use DHC= Pv6?

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

PS Please also do not forget that the= idea of using the Nonce as a transaction ID

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 vessel= came from me.

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:= naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t;
Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>= ;; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<= /a>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Hello Brian,

=C2=A0

Comments inline.


Yours,
Naveen.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter <= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Please find comments inline.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Naveen
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a= resource
>> allocation
>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see t= hat missing
>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC t= o function
>>> even with proposed protocol?
>>
>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahni= sm
>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguousl= y.
>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an uns= olicited
>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assignin= g a
>> prefix, which are totally different actions.
>>
>
> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolici= ted
> and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we need to distinguish like that?=C2=A0 As = per my current
> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is rec= eived
> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning= the
> prefix unsolicited.=C2=A0

Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand=
your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or
by DHCPv6-ND.

Naveen] I would see this as partially true.=C2=A0 As= one of the forum member mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefi= x.=C2=A0 Even in our gateway too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when = a RS is received from devices directly tunneled over GRE.=C2=A0 Consider the case of described in RFC8273, where the prefi= xes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS.=C2=A0 So, it needn't al= ways be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or assignment.<= u>


> So, since both node and router will have context of
> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF = for
> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of = this
> in next version of draft.

But there is no field in an RA for a nonce.

Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing.=C2=A0=


>>
>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practi= ce
>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. Yo= u really
>> need some kind of two-phase commit.
>
>
> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of l= osing
> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A two way commit will induce mo= re delay
> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as t= he
> retry mechanism is in place.=C2=A0

A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being
allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest
that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of
four messages.

Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerabl= y safe.=C2=A0 This can be a subject of future study.


> I would rather say that the resource is never
> lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from router perspective the resource is a= llocated
> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node.=C2=A0 A devi= ce will anyway
> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocate= d
> prefix.

But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement
for safe resource allocation.

>
> The standard RA doesn't have this
>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, an= d it is
>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't = matter.
>>
>
> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, = didn't
> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed= in
> this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?

As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly differ= ent
statement.

Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all route= rs might not be eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (f= or example, whoever didn't go for a < /64 prefix allocation).=C2=A0 = There must not be a big change in existing behavior.=C2=A0 Can you please help me understand your comment?


>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essen= tial
>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or
>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give= a /56
>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?"= ; you need an
>> identifier for the box.)
>>
> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers
> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router ca= n log
> using the mac address of the device.=C2=A0 We too do the same thing in= our
> router.

/56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested.
Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But
if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved.

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by hono= rable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
>>
>>>
>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is t= he term
>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub= pool.
>>
>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment= " are all fundamentally the
>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function = of a
>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you t= o justify.
>> Why do that?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Please correct me if am wrong.
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>> Naveen,
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 = ND RS/RA messages
>>>> requires
>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing pr= otocol (namely,
>>>> DHCPv6).
>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND= option but
>>>> requires a
>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your dra= ft yet. My
>> feeling
>>>> is that once
>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look ve= ry much like
>>>> DHCPv6, and
>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protoc= ols.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the p= rotocol should be
>>>> DHCPv6,
>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that loo= ks a lot like
>>>> DHCPv6?
>>>>
>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one = property that
>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see = how we can build
>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some for= m of
>>>> transactional
>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resour= ce allocation.
>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/= RA.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail= .com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@g= mail.com>
>>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boe= ing.com>;
>>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org&= gt;; 6man WG <
>> ipv6@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with ot= her existing
>>>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t = the functionality
>> and
>>>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the case= s where this draft
>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself= is not
>> usable.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting somethin= g from the router
>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, = IMHO it's very
>>>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a = PIO is included in
>> RS
>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router= .=C2=A0 When this
>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by sa= ying it as a
>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>>
>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the = existing protocol
>>>> standards without new message types or option types or fla= gs itself is
>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, are= n't there
>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be s= ent to the
>>>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLA= AC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am
>> I
>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant = protocols to
>> each
>>>> other?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many = respected members
>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my cu= rrent draft
>>>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become= standards.=C2=A0 It shows
>> the
>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sur= e people keep
>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside = the draft, please
>>>> suggest another change for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on= providing
>>>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the = forum and WG
>> chairs to
>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>> Naveen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> in line..
>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Tem= plin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan &l= t;otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@= ietf.org>>; 6man WG <
>>>> ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrot= e:
>>>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@emplo= yees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36= AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.s= arma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin = (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otro= an@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 20= 18 9:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer">Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <= naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, = Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-= ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailt= o:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November= 12, 2018 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred= L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli = <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] N= ew Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to= some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But
>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole alo= ng with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegat= ion is quite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless thi= s is water under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understan= d this comment, the water under the bridge
>>>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv= 6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation.
>>>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning t= o say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that= DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alte= rnate IPv6 ND-based protocol in
>>>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that= , but would the community agree with
>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community t= ry to avoid providing multiple
>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fai= l.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is = the one and only solution?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem tha= t is already solved is a
>> waste
>>>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a probl= em where we don=E2=80=99t have a
>>>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one= and only solution to
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegatio= n protocol is needed*. (I
>>>> add this
>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v= 6ops-pdhost' lists other
>>>> non-protocol
>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix= delegation.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the = current IETF solution, but
>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can= 't actually stop people
>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, = which would simply
>> appear
>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mec= hanism as far as the IETF
>> protocols
>>>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my m= essage based on our
>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including a= nima) which we
>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. = >From that document:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation servic= es must be considered
>> according
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An examp= le service is that offered by
>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative servi= ce based on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6ma= n-pio-exclusive-bit].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exi= st, such as proprietary IPAMs,
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] an= d
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management= -yang]."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make s= ome adjustments
>> based
>>>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I sai= d, proposals such as
>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DH= CPv6-PD as the
>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management
>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a diff= erent
>> discussiion.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit whil= e developing
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue= waiting for missing
>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to sh= ow how a prefix
>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD= at the edges of an
>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find some= thing similar in any sort
>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition = of something new, has to be different
>> than
>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrappin= g", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>>>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say= that the idea of including a DHCPv6
>>>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different = wrapping", then that is not entirely true.
>>>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in= a single message exchange, there are
>>>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. Tha= t in itself is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that = as interesting. You will not save a round
>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each= other.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O b= its where there is a
>> cross-dependence
>>>> between the two
>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are s= upposed to wait until the RS/RA
>>>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv= 6 (two round trips). Are you saying
>>>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that th= e M&O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency= on the M&O bits. PD is a
>>>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits= - I am fine with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there ar= e fewer messages - two instead
>> of
>>>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind t= hat.
>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many b= ytes - the question is moreso
>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On so= me links, sending
>>>> everything in
>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to c= ollisions than requiring
>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "= ;breaker, breaker one-nine" you
>>>> get
>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason)= without having to undergo
>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That i= s not to say that common
>>>> data
>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but t= hey do have their CSMA
>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on som= eone else's transmission.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exac= tly same protocol semantics, just
>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exact= ly DHCPv6 - they are not
>>>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getti= ng why that is valuable. ND
>> is
>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable f= or per-router
>>>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent = as unicast (one-to-one).
>> In
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in t= he RS message is
>> indication
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still strugglin= g with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an
>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be= a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk ab= out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org&= gt;
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/v6ops
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000ce1882057b2347ff-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 01:53:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D284212958B; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:53:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5mIl_ax6AMA; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C67130F06; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 83-v6so4234538ljf.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:53:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d1GadF52QQA4E+lM08riyjSkAZ/iDdGF/s0v5FrD4OY=; b=GhRyMJWq1tfbM9auCR8q/VzQ5QRDgIP3AHJByJpzLELuGe1fkDcWjL6XMvFuwpj4QL YhS9vJKfHHy1C1qeUvPcbZnSVbzuzEzI9qsbIhDdRkiJdx+PBzkS7Vwm27pYzI6GLgpg Wj49tL0YP4uJGQwuq+JqYSmHLmR74yKUkOnRUKcHNfGcuwFJMt7U6KfjmE6AdPgfL9Id DhVZUPLhu8TsnQqWTbUw4YAjxF1n9ahBGB+h+gFCuqRHFHyeFHgUQ//+AAZ8Dhn3S9k6 fM9cn1pu9mBc4xgkSy/y0FYrh9uVPbr22jZrewvEEaq+00yb2w5jOvnLYAx/mgq/KJn1 74hA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d1GadF52QQA4E+lM08riyjSkAZ/iDdGF/s0v5FrD4OY=; b=Qu5LPTY/YAUvv+Ot6YBAe8EVsH/0oMqbcjfgpj0p0HxBrJJKcX+hiV1QoNGlPh6vfa Q1y/WOMOayBsq9D8YeBMCt0OtTGsRKtyeiRllx1ZD6idwZO6/K51Q6SkIgdqx3VeBi7y xwZhyPpY2vpKgbtnKRuk6Z+6m5vEhmzYsden9H4nkHudr1AUQuDU7IEQENg/DwzVXFNO TCMYBRglyctIIhn8UxciBSnay0i5KcGUarW4oBUPf8t7jvRrAsyeWILZsRwSjSwv3An0 IDFXjAbnK5d6RYqb8ivB3Iyps/vv4bSWPYbO+jO6WMrklTAB83wVfVIJCMXQfaPoOMQ0 b09Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIHXsQ/xlXdCY2IkaU+3sxPaAxk6bBoWivI83UdRu8FKxvFa6/q pmHZa71mw6n2fGC8Q4t7uWvyacOXugnvar9XRxo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Xj/YPeqnxvwps/IzWf7UsJhBSTSsxgv3CgeVr/X8BjRY1/+207Vo3k6umh9NJoSyMHNMXH0Wzw46tScTonkUQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:117:: with SMTP id 23-v6mr3420900ljb.131.1542793988945; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:53:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:22:45 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac3b9f057b29b7b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:53:18 -0000 --000000000000ac3b9f057b29b7b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Brian, As I think more on usage of "on-link" flag and unsolicited RA, I see the below corrections might be required in my draft. 1. When the prefix length of < 64 is solicited by a CPE or downstream router, the "on-link" flag will not make sense from delegating router's perspective. It is the CPE or downstream router responsibility to use the prefix pool and on-link bit as per configuration based on the network topology it is catering to. 2. When the prefix length of < 64 is solicited by a CPE or downstream router, the delegating router will not send unsolicited RA for the allocated prefix pool. Also, all of this effort is not to replicate the DHCPv6 behavior inside RS/RA. It's only to fill small gaps. Please let me know your thoughts on these. Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 01:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2018-11-21 07:08, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Comments inline. > > The same from me... > > > > > Yours, > > Naveen. > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>> Hello Brian, > >>> > >>> Please find comments inline. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>>>> Hello Brian, > >>>>> > >>>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > >>>> allocation > >>>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that > >> missing > >>>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to > >> function > >>>>> even with proposed protocol? > >>>> > >>>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > >>>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > >>>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicit= ed > >>>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning = a > >>>> prefix, which are totally different actions. > >>>> > >>> > >>> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between > unsolicited > >>> and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my > >> current > >>> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is > >> received > >>> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning th= e > >>> prefix unsolicited. > >> > >> Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understan= d > >> your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or > >> by DHCPv6-ND. > >> > > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member > > mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gatew= ay > > too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from > devices > > directly tunneled over GRE. > > Can you explain that in more detail? Is that how a homenet would > get a /48 for example? > > > Consider the case of described in RFC8273, > > where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it > > needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation o= r > > assignment. > > There is a very fundamental difference between RFC8273 and your proposal. > In RFC8273 the target host *does not know* that the /64 prefix is > single-use. In no way is that prefix delegated to the host; it is > simply the prefix it may use for forming its own address. (It is not > even marked as an on-link prefix, since the L bit is specified to be > off.) > > >>> So, since both node and router will have context of > >>> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF > for > >>> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of > >> this > >>> in next version of draft. > >> > >> But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. > >> > > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. > > I must have missed that in the text. Which section? > > > > >> > >>>> > >>>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > >>>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You > >> really > >>>> need some kind of two-phase commit. > >>> > >>> > >>> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of > >> losing > >>> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more > delay > >>> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as > the > >>> retry mechanism is in place. > >> > >> A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being > >> allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest > >> that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of > >> four messages. > >> > > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can b= e > a > > subject of future study. > > > >> > >>> I would rather say that the resource is never > >>> lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is > allocated > >>> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will > >> anyway > >>> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocat= ed > >>> prefix. > >> > >> But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requiremen= t > >> for safe resource allocation. > >> > >>> > >>> The standard RA doesn't have this > >>>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it i= s > >>>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter= . > >>>> > >>> > >>> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, > didn't > >>> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one propose= d > in > >>> this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > >> > >> As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". > >> Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different > >> statement. > >> > > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever > didn't > > go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in > > existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? > > Only a router that owns a pool of prefixes can delegate them using > DHCPv6-PD, and I don't see why it would be any different for your > proposal. > > >> > >>>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > >>>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > >>>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > >>>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > >>>> identifier for the box.) > >>>> > >>> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > >>> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router c= an > >> log > >>> using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > >>> router. > >> > >> /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested= . > >> Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But > >> if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. > > > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable > solution > > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > If the need is to reproduce all DHCPv6 features inside RS/RA, is there > really a saving in complexity and footprint? > > Brian > > > > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the te= rm > >>>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool= . > >>>> > >>>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > >>>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of= a > >>>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > >>>> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to > justify. > >>>> Why do that? > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Please correct me if am wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks & Regards, > >>>>> Naveen > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>> Naveen, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA > >> messages > >>>>>> requires > >>>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol > (namely, > >>>>>> DHCPv6). > >>>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >>>>>> requires a > >>>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > >>>> feeling > >>>>>> is that once > >>>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much lik= e > >>>>>> DHCPv6, and > >>>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol > should > >> be > >>>>>> DHCPv6, > >>>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot li= ke > >>>>>> DHCPv6? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property > >> that > >>>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can > build > >>>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >>>>>> transactional > >>>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource > >> allocation. > >>>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brian > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>>>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >>>>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello all, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existin= g > >>>>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the > functionality > >>>> and > >>>>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this > >> draft > >>>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > >>>> usable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the > >> router > >>>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it'= s > >> very > >>>>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed > >> in > >>>> RS > >>>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When > this > >>>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it > as a > >>>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing > >> protocol > >>>>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itsel= f > is > >>>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't ther= e > >>>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to t= he > >>>>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6= ? > >> Am > >>>> I > >>>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocol= s > to > >>>> each > >>>>>> other? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected > >> members > >>>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current > draft > >>>>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It > shows > >>>> the > >>>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people > >> keep > >>>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, > >> please > >>>>>> suggest another change for that. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >>>>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > >>>> chairs to > >>>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yours, > >>>>>>> Naveen. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> in line.. > >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hi Brian, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >> >>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>>>> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG > < > >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>>> ; > >>>>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote= : > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>>> ; > >>>>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote= : > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>>> ; > >>>>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire= . > >> But > >>>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>>>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the > bridge > >>>>>> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix > >> delegation. > >>>>>> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol > for > >>>>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >>>>>> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree > with > >>>> it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multipl= e > >>>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is = a > >>>> waste > >>>>>> of time and resources. > >>>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80= =99t have a > >>>>>> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution t= o > >>>>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed= *. > >> (I > >>>>>> add this > >>>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >>>>>> non-protocol > >>>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution= , > >> but > >>>>>> there > >>>>>>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop > >> people > >>>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simpl= y > >>>> appear > >>>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > >>>> protocols > >>>>>>>>> are concerned. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based o= n > >> our > >>>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > >>>> according > >>>>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > >>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging > has > >>>>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary > >> IPAMs, > >>>>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustment= s > >>>> based > >>>>>>>> on these recent discussions? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals su= ch > >> as > >>>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as > the > >>>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, > naveen-slaac-prefix-management > >>>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > >>>> discussiion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>>>>>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for > missing > >>>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of = an > >>>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any > sort > >>>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be differe= nt > >>>> than > >>>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about > non-DHCPv6 > >>>>>> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a > DHCPv6 > >>>>>> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely > >> true. > >>>>>> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, ther= e > >> are > >>>>>> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not = save a > round > >>>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > >>>> cross-dependence > >>>>>> between the two > >>>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the > >> RS/RA > >>>>>> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you > >> saying > >>>>>> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is= a > >>>>>> protocol between routers. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two > instead > >>>> of > >>>>>> four. That matters > >>>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is > >> moreso > >>>>>> how > >>>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >>>>>> everything in > >>>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than > requiring > >>>>>> multiple > >>>>>>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nin= e" > >> you > >>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to > >> undergo > >>>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that > common > >>>>>> data > >>>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CS= MA > >>>>>> protocols > >>>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission= .) > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, > just > >>>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >>>>>> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable= . > ND > >>>> is > >>>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-r= outer > >>>>>>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast > (one-to-one). > >>>> In > >>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > >>>> indication > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless exte= nsions=E2=80=9D of > >> an > >>>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>>>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --000000000000ac3b9f057b29b7b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Brian,

As I think more on usage o= f "on-link" flag and unsolicited RA, I see the below corrections = might be required in my draft.

1. When the prefix length= of < 64 is solicited by a CPE or downstream router, the "on-link&q= uot; flag will not make sense from delegating router's perspective.=C2= =A0 It is the CPE or downstream router responsibility to use the prefix poo= l and on-link bit as per configuration based on the network topology it is = catering to.
2. When the prefix length of < 64 is solicited by= a CPE or downstream router, the delegating router will not send unsolicite= d RA for the allocated prefix pool.

Also, all of t= his effort is not to replicate the DHCPv6 behavior inside RS/RA.=C2=A0 It&#= 39;s only to fill small gaps.

Please let me know y= our=C2=A0thoughts on these.

Yours,
N= aveen.


On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 01:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2018-11-21 07:08, Naveen Kottapalli wro= te:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Comments inline.

The same from me...

>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= /a>>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>> Please find comments inline.
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter <
>> b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it= 's a resource
>>>> allocation
>>>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do y= ou see that
>> missing
>>>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for= SLAAC to
>> function
>>>>> even with proposed protocol?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent= mecahnism
>>>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unam= biguously.
>>>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish betwee= n an unsolicited
>>>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA = assigning a
>>>> prefix, which are totally different actions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between = unsolicited
>>> and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we need to distinguish like that?= =C2=A0 As per my
>> current
>>> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when R= S is
>> received
>>> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router a= ssigning the
>>> prefix unsolicited.
>>
>> Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't u= nderstand
>> your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or >> by DHCPv6-ND.
>>
> Naveen] I would see this as partially true.=C2=A0 As one of the forum = member
> mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix.=C2=A0 Even in our= gateway
> too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from de= vices
> directly tunneled over GRE.=C2=A0

Can you explain that in more detail? Is that how a homenet would
get a /48 for example?

> Consider the case of described in RFC8273,
> where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS.=C2=A0 S= o, it
> needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocat= ion or
> assignment.

There is a very fundamental difference between RFC8273 and your proposal. In RFC8273 the target host *does not know* that the /64 prefix is
single-use. In no way is that prefix delegated to the host; it is
simply the prefix it may use for forming its own address. (It is not
even marked as an on-link prefix, since the L bit is specified to be
off.)

>>> So, since both node and router will have context of
>>> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xF= FFFFFFF for
>>> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the= use of
>> this
>>> in next version of draft.
>>
>> But there is no field in an RA for a nonce.
>>
> Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing.

I must have missed that in the text. Which section?

>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is ba= d practice
>>>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for = ever. You
>> really
>>>> need some kind of two-phase commit.
>>>
>>>
>>> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chan= ces of
>> losing
>>> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A two way commit will i= nduce more delay
>>> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be requi= red as the
>>> retry mechanism is in place.
>>
>> A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix be= ing
>> allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I sugges= t
>> that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of<= br> >> four messages.
>>
> Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe.=C2=A0 This= can be a
> subject of future study.
>
>>
>>> I would rather say that the resource is never
>>> lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from router perspective the resou= rce is allocated
>>> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node.=C2= =A0 A device will
>> anyway
>>> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same = allocated
>>> prefix.
>>
>> But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requir= ement
>> for safe resource allocation.
>>
>>>
>>> The standard RA doesn't have this
>>>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignm= ent*, and it is
>>>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message does= n't matter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my dra= ft. So, didn't
>>> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one = proposed in
>>> this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?
>>
>> As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix&= quot;.
>> Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utter= ly different
>> statement.
>>
> Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example,= whoever didn't
> go for a < /64 prefix allocation).=C2=A0 There must not be a big ch= ange in
> existing behavior.=C2=A0 Can you please help me understand your commen= t?

Only a router that owns a pool of prefixes can delegate them using
DHCPv6-PD, and I don't see why it would be any different for your
proposal.

>>
>>>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to = be essential
>>>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation o= r
>>>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK= to give a /56
>>>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that pref= ix?" you need an
>>>> identifier for the box.)
>>>>
>>> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the router= s
>>> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a r= outer can
>> log
>>> using the mac address of the device.=C2=A0 We too do the same = thing in our
>>> router.
>>
>> /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be reque= sted.
>> Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But=
>> if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved.
>
> Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solu= tion
> in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too).=C2=A0 T= hat is
> reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the=
> group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself.

If the need is to reproduce all DHCPv6 features inside RS/RA, is there
really a saving in complexity and footprint?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegati= on* is the term
>>>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation fr= om a sub pool.
>>>>
>>>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "as= signment" are all fundamentally the
>>>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement f= unction of a
>>>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol = into a
>>>> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is aski= ng you to justify.
>>>> Why do that?
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please correct me if am wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>>>> Naveen
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>>>>> Naveen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option = in IPv6 ND RS/RA
>> messages
>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already exi= sting protocol (namely,
>>>>>> DHCPv6).
>>>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing= IPv6 ND option but
>>>>>> requires a
>>>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in = your draft yet. My
>>>> feeling
>>>>>> is that once
>>>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would= look very much like
>>>>>> DHCPv6, and
>>>>>>> some people have said that they do not want ne= w protocols.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring wheth= er the protocol should
>> be
>>>>>> DHCPv6,
>>>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol = that looks a lot like
>>>>>> DHCPv6?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 = has one property
>> that
>>>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don= 9;t see how we can build
>>>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without = some form of
>>>>>> transactional
>>>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form o= f resource
>> allocation.
>>>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6= and RS/RA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= >;
>>>>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <
>>>> ipv6@ie= tf.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete= with other existing
>>>>>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gap= s w.r.t the functionality
>>>> and
>>>>>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see = the cases where this
>> draft
>>>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridg= e itself is not
>>>> usable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting = something from the
>> router
>>>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other ter= ritory, IMHO it's
>> very
>>>>>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter wh= ether a PIO is included
>> in
>>>> RS
>>>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information fro= m router.=C2=A0 When this
>>>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down ju= st by saying it as a
>>>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it i= s not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a device soliciting required information us= ing the existing
>> protocol
>>>>>> standards without new message types or option type= s or flags itself is
>>>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standa= rds, aren't there
>>>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that = can be sent to the
>>>>>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the comp= lete SLAAC and DHCPv6?
>> Am
>>>> I
>>>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are re= dundant protocols to
>>>> each
>>>>>> other?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made = by many respected
>> members
>>>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatev= er my current draft
>>>>>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn'= t become standards.=C2=A0 It shows
>>>> the
>>>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution an= d am sure people
>> keep
>>>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6= inside the draft,
>> please
>>>>>> suggest another change for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reserva= tions on providing
>>>>>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I requ= est the forum and WG
>>>> chairs to
>>>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>> Naveen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpente= r <
>>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= /a>>>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>> in line..
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrot= e:
>>>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com
>> <mailto:
>>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37= AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com<mailto:
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org= <mailto:
>>>>>> otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>; 6man WG = <
>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fre= d L wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 20= 18 10:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" target=3D"_blank">Fred.L.Templi= n@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.= com<mailto:
>>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>>>> ;
>>>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, = Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>&= gt; wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-= ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailt= o:otroan@employee= s.org<mailto:
>>>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, Novembe= r 13, 2018 9:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred= L <Fred.= L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli = <naveen.sarm= a@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>>>> ;
>>>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] N= ew Version Notification for
>>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at= 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>&= gt; wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original = Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troa= n [mailto:otroan@= employees.org<mailto:
>>>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, = November 12, 2018 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (U= S), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kot= tapalli <nav= een.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>>>> ;
>>>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [= v6ops] New Version Notification for
>>>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I = agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.
>> But
>>>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router = to
>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a w= hole along with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix= delegation is quite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regard= less this is water under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can u= nderstand this comment, the water under the bridge
>>>>>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection = of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix
>> delegation.
>>>>>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were m= eaning to say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are say= ing that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for
>>>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be= no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in
>>>>>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement l= ike that, but would the community agree with
>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a com= munity try to avoid providing multiple
>>>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometime= s we fail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DH= CPv6 is the one and only solution?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a pro= blem that is already solved is a
>>>> waste
>>>>>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve= a problem where we don=E2=80=99t have a
>>>>>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is= the one and only solution to
>>>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix D= elegation protocol is needed*.
>> (I
>>>>>> add this
>>>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-t= emplin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other
>>>>>> non-protocol
>>>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving = a prefix delegation.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD= is the current IETF solution,
>> but
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police,= you can't actually stop
>> people
>>>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix dele= gation, which would simply
>>>> appear
>>>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual&q= uot; mechanism as far as the IETF
>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I wor= ded my message based on
>> our
>>>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (inc= luding anima) which we
>>>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhos= t'. From that document:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services=
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegatio= n services must be considered
>>>> according
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 = An example service is that offered by
>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternati= ve service based on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxf= olks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms= may exist, such as proprietary
>> IPAMs,
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-manage= ment] and
>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-ma= nagement-yang]."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need t= o make some adjustments
>>>> based
>>>>>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole a= nd I said, proposals such
>> as
>>>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do reco= gnize DHCPv6-PD as the
>>>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-= slaac-prefix-management
>>>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which i= s a different
>>>> discussiion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a = bit while developing
>>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Edit= or queue waiting for missing
>>>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is suppos= ed to show how a prefix
>>>>>>>>> management system would interface to D= HCPv6-PD at the edges of an
>>>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd f= ind something similar in any sort
>>>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management schem= e.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:=
>>>>>>>>> https://tools.= ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value prop= osition of something new, has to be different
>>>> than
>>>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different= wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>>>>>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mea= n to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6
>>>>>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a di= fferent wrapping", then that is not entirely
>> true.
>>>>>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 func= tions in a single message exchange, there
>> are
>>>>>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round tr= ips. That in itself is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really s= ee that as interesting. You will not save a round
>>>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend= on each other.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M= &O bits where there is a
>>>> cross-dependence
>>>>>> between the two
>>>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, y= ou are supposed to wait until the
>> RS/RA
>>>>>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoki= ng DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you
>> saying
>>>>>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared= that the M&O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any de= pendency on the M&O bits. PD is a
>>>>>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&am= p;O bits - I am fine with that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that = there are fewer messages - two instead
>>>> of
>>>>>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end li= nks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths = behind that.
>>>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of ho= w many bytes - the question is
>> moreso
>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessar= y. On some links, sending
>>>>>> everything in
>>>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less pr= one to collisions than requiring
>>>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you s= ay "breaker, breaker one-nine"
>> you
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within= reason) without having to
>> undergo
>>>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times.= (That is not to say that common
>>>>>> data
>>>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radi= o, but they do have their CSMA
>>>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't ste= p on someone else's transmission.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As= in exactly same protocol semantics, just
>>>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA a= re exactly DHCPv6 - they are not
>>>>>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I strugg= le getting why that is valuable. ND
>>>> is
>>>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not su= itable for per-router
>>>>>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to = be sent as unicast (one-to-one).
>>>> In
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 opt= ion in the RS message is
>>>> indication
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unica= st.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still s= truggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of
>> an
>>>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, = would be a
>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to= talk about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________= _____________
>>>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________= _
>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000ac3b9f057b29b7b9-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 02:20:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD661298C5; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 02:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NX3l3eOQtt8L; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 02:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52C21277D2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 02:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 18B20B1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:19:59 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542795599; bh=lDMul0ReoyvAhcDtUTpGB+ezcYl2Io5QR+UdqauNP7s=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=fzO8r3+jlDecawC8u3ntRnG/Hy15grMV+IBjAWktUf7KZyoslYbqIQf9qaweya4NP R3R54abrWvAvjCe0m1yYWyQjrWUsTMjbXXG6l0FDz6XXUSVdAcoJV9XfWnILRFzxhR NQabWdne6ZygDhk4MV1MpXYZ8MtCVyHG3cl5I1R4= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163B6AF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:19:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:19:59 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-137064504-1793011337-1542795599=:14216" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:20:05 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-1793011337-1542795599=:14216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > I don’t understand that; there are a number of very good > publicly-available DHCPv6 implementations that support prefix delegation > today. And, to instrument RS/RA to perform prefix delegation under a new > protocol would require a non-trivial amount of new code. So, why not > just use DHCPv6? If you want to revoke the prefix delegated, both code bases would have to be enhanced since there is basically no implementation of DHCPv6 reconfigure. So this proposal has that "built in" (zero lifetime) the same way we do everything else in ND, whereas DHCPv6 would need extra code for this not currently existing. Taking one step back, what I would like (and I have said this before) is to get rid of the need for DHCPv6, and do everything in ND/RA. I'm ok with taking the entire DHCPv6 stateless option space and just following that registry of options and contents, but then take the stateful part of DHCPv6 and put it into ND as something "new". Perhaps copy part of the state machine from DHCPv6 if that makes sense. My main reason for this is lack of dhcp-reconfigure in todays implementations, but also the fact that I do not like ships in the night-approach between DHCPv6 and ND/RA. From what I know, we do not have a document that states what a device should do with its PD when it receives a zero lifetime RA from something that also happens to be its DHCPv6 relay/server. RFC7084 gives some advice, but that's not applicable to a host running VMs that it delegates addresses to (could be, but the document isn't aimed at that kind of device). That's the problem I think a proposal along the lines of slaac-prefix-management strategy has benefit. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-1793011337-1542795599=:14216-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 03:02:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7D012F1A2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:02:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggwGeJp374e1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6B0A12D4EC; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FF49FECBF93; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:02:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E26A18C66; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:02:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:02:01 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> <7374C275-3FF0-4A5B-9E9E-4D9AA1220B63@employees.org> To: Naveen Kottapalli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:02:06 -0000 Naveen, > Refined my problem statements below. Please let me know if this is = okay. I am sorry, but I am still not able to see anything that you cannot do = with the existing solutions for prefix delegation. If the tradeoff here is for you to spend 2-3 days writing a DHCPv6 PD = implementation, or spending the time of hundreds of people on this list = for months to come=E2=80=A6 you have chosen the latter. That doesn=E2=80=99= t seem like a fair tradeoff to me. Cheers, Ole From nobody Wed Nov 21 04:48:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AE51292AD for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 04:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6RXpnTEl3DO for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 04:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AF28128CE4 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 04:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wALClxWP067642; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:48:00 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E438C2049DF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:47:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EFE2049C3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:47:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wALClx7Y000379; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:47:59 +0100 To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <664ed937a5464d21ae64c7a1925bff6b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <11de45e8-24cd-0f95-2735-ac6ae77f2338@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:47:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6/IPV6ND and SEND (was: RE: New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:48:05 -0000 Le 20/11/2018 à 16:01, Bjoern A. Zeeb a écrit : > On 20 Nov 2018, at 14:28, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > >> Le 20/11/2018 à 07:06, Fernando Gont a écrit : >>> Fred, >>> >>> It would seem to me that while we do have a spec for "SEND", there seems >>> to be close to null host support for SEND. >> >> Yet the need of secure neighbor discovery is huge. >> >> What's the most straightforward way to secure an RA very quickly now >> on the command line? > > There’s (3rd party) SeND support for most desktop/server operating systems. And "iSEND: IPv6 SEcure Neighbor Discovery Implementation for Android Devices" ambitions to deliver before 2019. Alex > > /bz > From nobody Wed Nov 21 06:48:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E35129C6E; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:48:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JIvRnbC3-hz2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 598CA126CD4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALEmdEJ047340; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:48:39 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALEmR3p046905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:48:27 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:48:26 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:48:26 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Naveen Kottapalli CC: Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgACBmFgAACUaSQA== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:48:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> 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(8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALEuLZV058671; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:56:21 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.219]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALEu9he058558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:56:09 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:56:09 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:56:08 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter CC: Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRABHa/eygAKVBAA Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:56:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 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"Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8A== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:09:06 +0000 Message-ID: <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 9E083CC9FA57404129B35513828373FA561713F787F425A5F08DA98C3AA52ACC2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:12:58 -0000 TWlrYWVsLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1pa2FlbCBB YnJhaGFtc3NvbiBbbWFpbHRvOnN3bWlrZUBzd20ucHAuc2VdDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwg 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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DE3130DF1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:11:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vp8qyDG8Y8Kf; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B365130DBE; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id ACC1DB0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:11:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542816696; bh=qCWdOePKEAfaWaWLwPp6uRdk1fXHgQhF1Je5TdJgbYI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=YM7mHOdfGtSEq+prm3TnJCp8gAqWAeBJFOgrXTOPp1OA+YkgUUSqA0QTAKGDtXijW gpqR7IMZ/qI9gfafbL4ZHfxNv2Z3zanYRtZV6nrgAMIw8edGiGARSIBeSJsJpEJMBJ dvpt/P5c0Da+vXLBc1VQrkeKp/IyGT6a5pSRt0po= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C26AF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:11:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:11:36 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-137064504-598611874-1542816696=:14216" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:11:41 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-598611874-1542816696=:14216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> So this proposal has that "built in" (zero lifetime) the same way we do >> everything else in ND, whereas DHCPv6 would need extra code for this not >> currently existing. > > I can't understand from this what you are talking about. The DHCPv6-ND > approach inherits all of IPv6ND - not only just the features of DHCPv6. The subject is about draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management which is what I am commenting on. I am not commenting on your document. I do not like the idea to tunnel DHCPv6 messages unchanged in ND/RA. > I don’t understand this either. Anything new that would be brought into > IPv6ND would simply be re-creating what DHCPv6 already does. Yes. > That is why 'draft-templin-6man-dhcpv6-ndopt' advocates a unified > service of DHCPv6-ND. Ok. ---137064504-598611874-1542816696=:14216-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 08:15:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A85130DF1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:15:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0foev7sVvEnd; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C240130DFA; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALGFJig046072; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:15:19 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.219]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALGFGkc046045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:15:16 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:15:15 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:15:15 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539A= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:15:15 +0000 Message-ID: <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: FB3833028F2DB6CEC81D3C9A75F2A9917F0F8578BAABF9CBB50789C95121FE0B2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:15:23 -0000 SGkgTWlrYWVsLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1pa2Fl bCBBYnJhaGFtc3NvbiBbbWFpbHRvOnN3bWlrZUBzd20ucHAuc2VdDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2Rh eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjEsIDIwMTggODoxMiBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwg PEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+DQo+IENjOiBOYXZlZW4gS290dGFwYWxsaSA8bmF2 ZWVuLnNhcm1hQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIDxicmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRl ckBnbWFpbC5jb20+OyA2bWFuIFdHIDxpcHY2QGlldGYub3JnPjsNCj4gdjZvcHMgbGlzdCA8djZv cHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbdjZvcHNdIE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNh dGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtbmF2ZWVuLXNsYWFjLXByZWZpeC1tYW5hZ2VtZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KPiAN Cj4gT24gV2VkLCAyMSBOb3YgMjAxOCwgVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0K PiA+PiBTbyB0aGlzIHByb3Bvc2FsIGhhcyB0aGF0ICJidWlsdCBpbiIgKHplcm8gbGlmZXRpbWUp IHRoZSBzYW1lIHdheSB3ZSBkbw0KPiA+PiBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGVsc2UgaW4gTkQsIHdoZXJlYXMg REhDUHY2IHdvdWxkIG5lZWQgZXh0cmEgY29kZSBmb3IgdGhpcyBub3QNCj4gPj4gY3VycmVudGx5 IGV4aXN0aW5nLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSSBjYW4ndCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGZyb20gdGhpcyB3aGF0IHlv dSBhcmUgdGFsa2luZyBhYm91dC4gVGhlIERIQ1B2Ni1ORA0KPiA+IGFwcHJvYWNoIGluaGVyaXRz IGFsbCBvZiBJUHY2TkQgLSBub3Qgb25seSBqdXN0IHRoZSBmZWF0dXJlcyBvZiBESENQdjYuDQo+ IA0KPiBUaGUgc3ViamVjdCBpcyBhYm91dCBkcmFmdC1uYXZlZW4tc2xhYWMtcHJlZml4LW1hbmFn ZW1lbnQgd2hpY2ggaXMgd2hhdCBJDQo+IGFtIGNvbW1lbnRpbmcgb24uIEkgYW0gbm90IGNvbW1l bnRpbmcgb24geW91ciBkb2N1bWVudC4gSSBkbyBub3QgbGlrZSB0aGUNCj4gaWRlYSB0byB0dW5u ZWwgREhDUHY2IG1lc3NhZ2VzIHVuY2hhbmdlZCBpbiBORC9SQS4NCg0KU29ycnkgeW91IGRvbuKA mXQgbGlrZSB0aGUgaWRlYSwgYnV0IHBsZWFzZSBkb27igJl0IGNhbGwgaXQgInR1bm5lbGluZyIg YmVjYXVzZQ0KdGhhdCBpcyBub3Qgd2hhdCBESENQdjZORCBpcyBhYm91dC4gSXQgaXMgYWJvdXQg YSB1bmlmaWVkIHNlcnZpY2UgdGhhdA0KY29tYmluZXMgdGhlIGJlc3QgZWxlbWVudHMgb2YgdGhl IHR3byBzZXJ2aWNlcy4NCg0KPiA+IEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoaXMgZWl0aGVyLiBB bnl0aGluZyBuZXcgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBicm91Z2h0IGludG8NCj4gPiBJUHY2TkQgd291bGQg c2ltcGx5IGJlIHJlLWNyZWF0aW5nIHdoYXQgREhDUHY2IGFscmVhZHkgZG9lcy4NCj4gDQo+IFll cy4NCg0KR29vZC4gVGhlbiB3ZSBzdGljayB3aXRoIERIQ1B2Ni4NCg0KVGhhbmtzIC0gRnJlZA0K DQo+ID4gVGhhdCBpcyB3aHkgJ2RyYWZ0LXRlbXBsaW4tNm1hbi1kaGNwdjYtbmRvcHQnIGFkdm9j YXRlcyBhIHVuaWZpZWQNCj4gPiBzZXJ2aWNlIG9mIERIQ1B2Ni1ORC4NCj4gDQo+IE9rLg0K From nobody Wed Nov 21 08:36:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BE6130DCA; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:36:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5FRt0h_Yqed7; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71EA5128AFB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 94085B1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:36:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542818161; bh=mi1RefE9NTsF54YZpzOycKt8FfExbiNrhY8Wj9boMMA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=d3Sf8c769ONDiHC5A5VP8FK2dgtd5nwCnKdG6H2z0Jlx9ISrN0ikzK3eE+y5o/76X v9W+rDvd24bVpFk1rO8y7M15q7RLr1BVu123f5kZZ8gnzv43+T17H8sly1C40Kr3n2 8S9XhPt1saD5uXSaNm6h7spTZBRW0GJ5Yfl35lms= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB2AB0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:36:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:36:01 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-137064504-107276423-1542818161=:14216" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:36:07 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-107276423-1542818161=:14216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Sorry you don’t like the idea, but please don’t call it "tunneling" because > that is not what DHCPv6ND is about. It is about a unified service that > combines the best elements of the two services. "RS message containing a DHCPv6 option that embeds a DHCPv6 Solicit message." When I read the rest of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-6man-dhcpv6-ndopt-06#section-2.2 I read "embed" which for me is pretty much the same as "tunnel". All of 2.2 is basically just wrapping/embedding/tunneling DHCPv6 messages in RS/RA messages. Or what am I missing? My opposition to DHCPv6 stateful here is "do we actually need everything that DHCPv6 does to solve our problem"? And also, do we actually want to do it exactly the same as DHCPv6 does it? For instance, do we want DHCPv6 reconfigure when we instead can just send messages with 0 lifetime and have that mean the same thing? >From reading your proposal, you do not say "let's just use function X, Y and Z of DHCPv6 and not the rest" but instead you just say "let's embed any DHCPv6 message and that should be supported". There are multiple aspects of DHCPv6 that I do not like and wouldn't want to go into a solution you're describing. The whole relay concept in conjunction with PD is just not specified *at all* in any IETF document I know of. I've had plenty of implementation problems based on this where relays just did the wrong thing. I do not want to bring with us all the legacy that DHCPv6 has and things that are not defined. >>> I don’t understand this either. Anything new that would be brought into >>> IPv6ND would simply be re-creating what DHCPv6 already does. >> >> Yes. > > Good. Then we stick with DHCPv6. > > Thanks - Fred Please do not put words in my mouth. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-107276423-1542818161=:14216-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 09:03:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569BA128AFB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id noeXDhjsTZSn; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bugle.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A722E123FFD; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bugle.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0657FECBF70; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:03:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFE8A20FFF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:03:24 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:03:24 +0100 Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2E73504B-8618-4516-8209-56B44F987B8E@employees.org> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:03:30 -0000 > My opposition to DHCPv6 stateful here is "do we actually need = everything that DHCPv6 does to solve our problem"? And also, do we = actually want to do it exactly the same as DHCPv6 does it? For instance, = do we want DHCPv6 reconfigure when we instead can just send messages = with 0 lifetime and have that mean the same thing? As soon as you think about the security issues, then you=E2=80=99d end = up with something very similar to DHCP reconfigure. You need state to be able to =E2=80=9Creconfigure=E2=80=9D. >> =46rom reading your proposal, you do not say "let's just use function = X, Y=20 > and Z of DHCPv6 and not the rest" but instead you just say "let's = embed any DHCPv6 message and that should be supported". >=20 > There are multiple aspects of DHCPv6 that I do not like and wouldn't = want to go into a solution you're describing. The whole relay concept in = conjunction with PD is just not specified *at all* in any IETF document = I know of. I've had plenty of implementation problems based on this = where relays just did the wrong thing. I do not want to bring with us = all the legacy that DHCPv6 has and things that are not defined. The relay is not specified for a reason. You don=E2=80=99t need to use = it. The same issue applies to any other solution, if you need some sort of = relaying. I would be much more supportive of these efforts if they focused on = solving some of the issues that DHCPv6 PD does not deal well with. - route injection - renumbering / reconfiguration - multiple sources - arbitrary topologies But as long as the idea is to gloss over the hard problems, and = replicate DHCPv6 protocol mechanics in ND, it=E2=80=99s hard to get very = excited. It=E2=80=99s quite likely that any effort in this space is going to look = an awfully much like HNCP. Ole= From nobody Wed Nov 21 09:30:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CEC12D4F2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OL-llQHlAbzd; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EE2B12426E; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id i26so4590878lfc.0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:30:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B9yud5WXTQbu+k9NxqEYAEAjugL5bb3YjeeYdXdQspY=; b=IF0RsxWxLtCZMYY81JZV0ah4nw0C1ZHOv8GWZjZtQh56K11CWymmLxukGgw4nCU3+o +ihLjIiBVjJKbmRFAphp6ATS4GbFuRvj0wGLe8tMIoOOAO9ao8jYzx8Uro54OEdf2Yrm JUqWhmJc0O0wza9/TKVYW8+taML6nHxo15C30s+Mn2Rs1HeRYoWrunFeRuk3fGVvK3xI 0cUq5IZB2NFVkCPSdy2eVuvPLKQTdKCpcf13YFJufAIksjxPsMn6oY7SZVAk3Bam/urh ZEMmbL9q817xYLoUStN5PXJSlYE8v2ivROiUgA57bsTniBuBEHvRPoEexeLWB1i+h7EJ CCLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B9yud5WXTQbu+k9NxqEYAEAjugL5bb3YjeeYdXdQspY=; b=I+gRvshkbrXjLwwNrAS5SnVhHSTUVrXMkcCJ9WabRkJ4xz1ImrlQah3blpCtKx5Ff0 AJDZlU6oyNaJsstUO9UFBPP1TuNcHNAuRgg/yS4DfP5SqfW6ECtjdgqK6QqZL34ehsRa Dih6OB5FLebblRb1krX8h+QBKu+zfmu4A8S7emnvBd0LG+jyHekkn0ZHjlOb20FZkdkv zs3H9fNed3Byc6nt7YTGaHjzHC/pra7VNY6rFseibksXjpB3uCoUJ1U5h8RrOKZSj/DQ oYKLij4IMJL+fRUT5zQWftMOdWejQdHzItWtJyRxxSIxXG0PLBVM1ZlmCDo+oP2qNCaX GyOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKPRabtZgUuW9UFw8ydNOQBaR/pEGVgLcTBFMrLBa5BVHKVFvy0 DJQj/U00ySnmpqUeqzW12vfXKiPKlsU1RUq+cIYlbJTn X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cUTTWS+ydMLKqhK8ed9BRphny3ylm6r8/NW6zmpl6o2L58SmvRELVRrTEBijVSUDFEzWdQG79oOdioqzTf/EA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:9dd1:: with SMTP id g200mr4163294lfe.127.1542821408099; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:30:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:59:44 +0530 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb520c057b301933" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:30:16 -0000 --000000000000fb520c057b301933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Being a new entrant in the forum with my draft, I will always be grateful and acknowledge all the contributions. In fact when I shared the draft with your for review before submission, I sent to other senior members of the forum. For that matter @Ole, @Brian and whoever contributes their names will be mentioned in upcoming version of my draft. The reason why the advice of a similar thing to DHCPv6 DUID not taken was, there is a fundamental difference between your draft and mine. Your draft proposes an unified approach of using DHCPv6 inside RS/RA, whereas my draft says things can be done without DHCPv6 and any other new options or flags too. As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' was cited in respective places of my draft. I don't know how more to acknowledge your inputs in my draft. If you feel that you are not acknowledged well, please let me know what citation changes I can do in my draft to make you happy. Finally, I would like to use this forum to improvise the draft more technically. You can directly message me. Yours, Naveen. On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 20:18, Templin (US), Fred L < Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > Hi Naveen, > > > > Also the idea of including a PIO in an RS message was originally mine as > documented > > in my draft. Others may claim that they brought up the idea first, in > which case I > > would be happy to honor their drafts. Your contribution was to not includ= e > any > > special bits in the RS PIO, which I agree is a good contribution. But, in > hindsight, > > the idea should have been offered as a contribution to my draft even if > the new > > protocol were to be documented in a separate draft. > > > > Also, I told you that you need to say something about node identifiers th= at > > parallels the DHCPv6 DUID for client and server IDs. You did not take my > > advice, and so that is a missing aspect of your proposal. The only > candidate > > I am aware of for RS/RA is the SLLAO option, but that only gives link-lay= er > > address, and not any of the other type of identifiers offered by DHCPv6. > > > > Finally, your use case is already covered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops= -pdhost=E2=80=99, > > which shows that DHCPv6 is applicable for the needs. If you think there > > is something different about your use case, that would be useful input > > for =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 but not materi= al for a new draft. > > In any case, your document needs to cite =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdh= ost=E2=80=99. > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:12 PM > *To:* Templin (US), Fred L > *Cc:* Brian E Carpenter ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Fred, > > > > Am aware that there are many open source softwares available. But the use > cases that I mentioned in my draft holds good with what I mentioned below= . > > > > I agree you suggested to include Nonce in RS / RA. That's why your > contribution is recognized and your name is mentioned in the draft under > *contributors*. But the whole idea of doing something with just RS / RA > with out the need of new option flags or message types was from me which = we > discussed in call. If you want we can take this discussion we can take > offline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Naveen, > > > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand that; there are a number of very good > publicly-available DHCPv6 > > implementations that support prefix delegation today. And, to instrument > RS/RA to > > perform prefix delegation under a new protocol would require a non-trivia= l > amount > > of new code. So, why not just use DHCPv6? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > PS Please also do not forget that the idea of using the Nonce as a > transaction ID > > vessel came from me. > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM > *To:* Brian E Carpenter > *Cc:* Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Hello Brian, > > > > Comments inline. > > > Yours, > Naveen. > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Please find comments inline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>> Hello Brian, > >>> > >>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > >> allocation > >>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that > missing > >>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to > function > >>> even with proposed protocol? > >> > >> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > >> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > >> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited > >> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a > >> prefix, which are totally different actions. > >> > > > > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicit= ed > > and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my > current > > knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is > received > > from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the > > prefix unsolicited. > > Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand > your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or > by DHCPv6-ND. > > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member > mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gateway > too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devic= es > directly tunneled over GRE. Consider the case of described in RFC8273, > where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it > needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or > assignment. > > > > So, since both node and router will have context of > > prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF f= or > > nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of > this > > in next version of draft. > > But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. > > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. > > > >> > >> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > >> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You > really > >> need some kind of two-phase commit. > > > > > > Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of > losing > > a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more del= ay > > in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as th= e > > retry mechanism is in place. > > A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being > allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest > that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of > four messages. > > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can be = a > subject of future study. > > > > I would rather say that the resource is never > > lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocat= ed > > even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will > anyway > > retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated > > prefix. > > But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement > for safe resource allocation. > > > > > The standard RA doesn't have this > >> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is > >> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. > >> > > > > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn'= t > > want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in > > this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > > As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". > Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different > statement. > > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever didn= 't > go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in > existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? > > > >> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > >> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > >> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > >> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > >> identifier for the box.) > >> > > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > > configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can > log > > using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > > router. > > /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested. > Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But > if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > Brian > > > > >> > >>> > >>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > >>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. > >> > >> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > >> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a > >> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justif= y. > >> Why do that? > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>> Please correct me if am wrong. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>> Naveen, > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA > messages > >>>> requires > >>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namel= y, > >>>> DHCPv6). > >>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >>>> requires a > >>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > >> feeling > >>>> is that once > >>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > >>>> DHCPv6, and > >>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol shoul= d > be > >>>> DHCPv6, > >>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > >>>> DHCPv6? > >>>> > >>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property > that > >>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can bui= ld > >>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >>>> transactional > >>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource > allocation. > >>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > >> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello all, > >>>>> > >>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > >>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionali= ty > >> and > >>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this > draft > >>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > >> usable. > >>>>> > >>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the > router > >>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's > very > >>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included > in > >> RS > >>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When th= is > >>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as= a > >>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>>>> > >>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing > protocol > >>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself = is > >>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > >>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > >>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? > Am > >> I > >>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to > >> each > >>>> other? > >>>>> > >>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected > members > >>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draf= t > >>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It sho= ws > >> the > >>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people > keep > >>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>>>> > >>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, > please > >>>> suggest another change for that. > >>>>> > >>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > >> chairs to > >>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yours, > >>>>> Naveen. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> in line.. > >>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brian, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. > But > >>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the brid= ge > >>>> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix > delegation. > >>>> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol f= or > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >>>> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wi= th > >> it? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > >>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > >> waste > >>>> of time and resources. > >>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t= have a > >>>> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. > (I > >>>> add this > >>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >>>> non-protocol > >>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, > but > >>>> there > >>>>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop > people > >>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > >> appear > >>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > >> protocols > >>>>>>> are concerned. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on > our > >>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > >> according > >>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > >> DHCPv6 > >>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging h= as > >>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary > IPAMs, > >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments > >> based > >>>>>> on these recent discussions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such > as > >>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as th= e > >>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manageme= nt > >>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > >> discussiion. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missin= g > >>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any so= rt > >>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > >> than > >>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv= 6 > >>>> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCP= v6 > >>>> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely > true. > >>>> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there > are > >>>> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sa= ve a round > >>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > >> cross-dependence > >>>> between the two > >>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the > RS/RA > >>>> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you > saying > >>>> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > >>>> protocol between routers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two inste= ad > >> of > >>>> four. That matters > >>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is > moreso > >>>> how > >>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >>>> everything in > >>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiri= ng > >>>> multiple > >>>>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" > you > >>>> get > >>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to > undergo > >>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that comm= on > >>>> data > >>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > >>>> protocols > >>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, ju= st > >>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >>>> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. = ND > >> is > >>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter > >>>>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one= ). > >> In > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > >> indication > >>>> that > >>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extens= ions=E2=80=9D of > an > >>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --000000000000fb520c057b301933 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

Being a new entr= ant in the forum with my draft, I will always be grateful and acknowledge a= ll the contributions.=C2=A0 In fact when I shared the draft with your for r= eview before submission, I sent to other senior members of the forum.=C2=A0= For that matter @Ole, @Brian and whoever contributes their names will be m= entioned in upcoming version of my draft.

The reas= on why the advice of a similar thing to DHCPv6 DUID not taken was, there is= a fundamental difference between your draft and mine.=C2=A0 Your draft pro= poses an unified approach of using DHCPv6 inside RS/RA, whereas my draft sa= ys things can be done without DHCPv6 and any other new options or flags too= .

As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-= v6ops-pdhost' was cited in respective places of my draft.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0= don't know how more to acknowledge your inputs in my draft.=C2=A0 If yo= u feel that you are not acknowledged well, please let me know what citation= changes I can do in=C2=A0my draft to make you happy.

<= div>Finally, I would like to use this forum to improvise the draft more tec= hnically.=C2=A0 You can directly message me.

=
Yours,
Naveen.

On Wed, = 21 Nov 2018 at 20:18, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

Also the idea of including a PIO in a= n RS message was originally mine as documented

in my draft. Others may claim that th= ey brought up the idea first, in which case I

would be happy to honor their drafts.= Your contribution was to not include any

special bits in the RS PIO, which I a= gree is a good contribution. But, in hindsight,

the idea should have been offered as = a contribution to my draft even if the new

protocol were to be documented in a s= eparate draft.

=C2=A0

Also, I told you that you need to say= something about node identifiers that

parallels the DHCPv6 DUID for client = and server IDs. You did not take my

advice, and so that is a missing aspe= ct of your proposal. The only candidate

I am aware of for RS/RA is the SLLAO = option, but that only gives link-layer

address, and not any of the other typ= e of identifiers offered by DHCPv6.

=C2=A0

Finally, your use case is already cov= ered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99,<= /p>

which shows that DHCPv6 is applicable= for the needs. If you think there

is something different about your use= case, that would be useful input

for =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdho= st=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 but not material for a new draft.

In any case, your document needs to c= ite =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99.

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.= com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:12 PM
To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Ole Troan <<= a href=3D"mailto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank">otroan@employees.o= rg>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Fred,

=C2=A0

Am aware that there are many open source softwares a= vailable. But the use cases that I mentioned in my draft holds good with wh= at I mentioned below.

=C2=A0

I agree you suggested to include Nonce in RS / RA. T= hat's why your contribution is recognized and your name is mentioned in= the draft under *contributors*. But the whole idea of doing something with= just RS / RA with out the need of new option flags or message types was from me which we discussed in call. If y= ou want we can take this discussion we can take offline.

=C2=A0

Thanks & Regards,

Naveen

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templ= in@boeing.com wrote:

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itse= lf.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t understand that; ther= e are a number of very good publicly-available DHCPv6<= /p>

implementations that support prefix d= elegation today. And, to instrument RS/RA to

perform prefix delegation under a new= protocol would require a non-trivial amount

of new code. So, why not just use DHC= Pv6?

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

PS Please also do not forget that the= idea of using the Nonce as a transaction ID

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 vessel= came from me.

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.= com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.or= g>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Hello Brian,

=C2=A0

Comments inline.


Yours,
Naveen.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter <= brian.e.ca= rpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Please find comments inline.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Naveen
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a= resource
>> allocation
>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see t= hat missing
>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC t= o function
>>> even with proposed protocol?
>>
>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahni= sm
>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguousl= y.
>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an uns= olicited
>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assignin= g a
>> prefix, which are totally different actions.
>>
>
> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolici= ted
> and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we need to distinguish like that?=C2=A0 As = per my current
> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is rec= eived
> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning= the
> prefix unsolicited.=C2=A0

Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand=
your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or
by DHCPv6-ND.

Naveen] I would see this as partially true.=C2=A0 As= one of the forum member mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefi= x.=C2=A0 Even in our gateway too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devices directly tunneled over GRE.=C2=A0 Consi= der the case of described in RFC8273, where the prefixes are assigned to de= vices upon receipt of RS.=C2=A0 So, it needn't always be a configuratio= n or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or assignment.


> So, since both node and router will have context of
> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF = for
> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of = this
> in next version of draft.

But there is no field in an RA for a nonce.

Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing.=C2=A0=


>>
>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practi= ce
>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. Yo= u really
>> need some kind of two-phase commit.
>
>
> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of l= osing
> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A two way commit will induce mo= re delay
> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as t= he
> retry mechanism is in place.=C2=A0

A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being
allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest
that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of
four messages.

Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerabl= y safe.=C2=A0 This can be a subject of future study.


> I would rather say that the resource is never
> lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from router perspective the resource is a= llocated
> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node.=C2=A0 A devi= ce will anyway
> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocate= d
> prefix.

But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement
for safe resource allocation.

>
> The standard RA doesn't have this
>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, an= d it is
>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't = matter.
>>
>
> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, = didn't
> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed= in
> this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?

As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly differ= ent
statement.

Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all route= rs might not be eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (f= or example, whoever didn't go for a < /64 prefix allocation).=C2=A0 There must not be a big change in existing behavior.=C2=A0 Can you please = help me understand your comment?


>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essen= tial
>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or
>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give= a /56
>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?"= ; you need an
>> identifier for the box.)
>>
> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers
> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router ca= n log
> using the mac address of the device.=C2=A0 We too do the same thing in= our
> router.

/56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested.
Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But
if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved.

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itse= lf.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
>>
>>>
>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is t= he term
>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub= pool.
>>
>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment= " are all fundamentally the
>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function = of a
>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you t= o justify.
>> Why do that?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Please correct me if am wrong.
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <
>> b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>> Naveen,
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 = ND RS/RA messages
>>>> requires
>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing pr= otocol (namely,
>>>> DHCPv6).
>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND= option but
>>>> requires a
>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your dra= ft yet. My
>> feeling
>>>> is that once
>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look ve= ry much like
>>>> DHCPv6, and
>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protoc= ols.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the p= rotocol should be
>>>> DHCPv6,
>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that loo= ks a lot like
>>>> DHCPv6?
>>>>
>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one = property that
>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see = how we can build
>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some for= m of
>>>> transactional
>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resour= ce allocation.
>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/= RA.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>; >>>> = otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <
>> ipv6@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with ot= her existing
>>>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t = the functionality
>> and
>>>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the case= s where this draft
>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself= is not
>> usable.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting somethin= g from the router
>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, = IMHO it's very
>>>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a = PIO is included in
>> RS
>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router= .=C2=A0 When this
>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by sa= ying it as a
>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>>
>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the = existing protocol
>>>> standards without new message types or option types or fla= gs itself is
>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, are= n't there
>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be s= ent to the
>>>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLA= AC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am
>> I
>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant = protocols to
>> each
>>>> other?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many = respected members
>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my cu= rrent draft
>>>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become= standards.=C2=A0 It shows
>> the
>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sur= e people keep
>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside = the draft, please
>>>> suggest another change for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on= providing
>>>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the = forum and WG
>> chairs to
>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>> Naveen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>&= gt; wrote:
>>>>> in line..
>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.= com<mailto:
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= <mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org<mailto= :
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>; 6man WG <
>>>> ipv6@ie= tf.org<mailto:ipv= 6@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrot= e:
>>>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mai= lto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36= AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com&= lt;mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin = (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrot= e:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 20= 18 9:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" target=3D"_blank">Fred.L.Templi= n@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.= com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, = Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrot= e:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-= ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailt= o:otroan@employee= s.org<mailto:
>>>> = otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November= 12, 2018 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred= L <Fred.= L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli = <naveen.sarm= a@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] N= ew Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to= some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But
>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole alo= ng with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegat= ion is quite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless thi= s is water under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understan= d this comment, the water under the bridge
>>>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv= 6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation.
>>>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning t= o say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that= DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alte= rnate IPv6 ND-based protocol in
>>>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that= , but would the community agree with
>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community t= ry to avoid providing multiple
>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fai= l.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is = the one and only solution?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem tha= t is already solved is a
>> waste
>>>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a probl= em where we don=E2=80=99t have a
>>>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one= and only solution to
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegatio= n protocol is needed*. (I
>>>> add this
>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v= 6ops-pdhost' lists other
>>>> non-protocol
>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix= delegation.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the = current IETF solution, but
>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can= 't actually stop people
>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, = which would simply
>> appear
>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mec= hanism as far as the IETF
>> protocols
>>>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my m= essage based on our
>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including a= nima) which we
>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. = >From that document:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation servic= es must be considered
>> according
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An examp= le service is that offered by
>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative servi= ce based on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6ma= n-pio-exclusive-bit].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exi= st, such as proprietary IPAMs,
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] an= d
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management= -yang]."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make s= ome adjustments
>> based
>>>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I sai= d, proposals such as
>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DH= CPv6-PD as the
>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management
>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a diff= erent
>> discussiion.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit whil= e developing
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue= waiting for missing
>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to sh= ow how a prefix
>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD= at the edges of an
>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find some= thing similar in any sort
>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition = of something new, has to be different
>> than
>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrappin= g", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>>>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say= that the idea of including a DHCPv6
>>>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different = wrapping", then that is not entirely true.
>>>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in= a single message exchange, there are
>>>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. Tha= t in itself is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that = as interesting. You will not save a round
>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each= other.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O b= its where there is a
>> cross-dependence
>>>> between the two
>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are s= upposed to wait until the RS/RA
>>>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv= 6 (two round trips). Are you saying
>>>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that th= e M&O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency= on the M&O bits. PD is a
>>>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits= - I am fine with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there ar= e fewer messages - two instead
>> of
>>>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind t= hat.
>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many b= ytes - the question is moreso
>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On so= me links, sending
>>>> everything in
>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to c= ollisions than requiring
>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "= ;breaker, breaker one-nine" you
>>>> get
>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason)= without having to undergo
>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That i= s not to say that common
>>>> data
>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but t= hey do have their CSMA
>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on som= eone else's transmission.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exac= tly same protocol semantics, just
>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exact= ly DHCPv6 - they are not
>>>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getti= ng why that is valuable. ND
>> is
>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable f= or per-router
>>>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent = as unicast (one-to-one).
>> In
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in t= he RS message is
>> indication
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still strugglin= g with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an
>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be= a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk ab= out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6= ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000fb520c057b301933-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 09:46:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00F8128CE4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:46:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yy-xtmMqFLum; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D0F12426E; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALHkiIK051304; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:46:45 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.213]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALHkZeI050886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:46:36 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eed5::8988:eed5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:46:35 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:46:35 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539D//4EDgIAAdN9w Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:46:35 +0000 Message-ID: <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 137636964633526B0C28CFC88CB566ADC6C56851B0F20288148496F87322BCD42000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:46:48 -0000 SGkgTWlrYWVsLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1pa2Fl bCBBYnJhaGFtc3NvbiBbbWFpbHRvOnN3bWlrZUBzd20ucHAuc2VdDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2Rh eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjEsIDIwMTggODozNiBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwg PEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+DQo+IENjOiBOYXZlZW4gS290dGFwYWxsaSA8bmF2 ZWVuLnNhcm1hQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIDxicmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRl ckBnbWFpbC5jb20+OyA2bWFuIFdHIDxpcHY2QGlldGYub3JnPjsNCj4gdjZvcHMgbGlzdCA8djZv cHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbdjZvcHNdIE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNh dGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtbmF2ZWVuLXNsYWFjLXByZWZpeC1tYW5hZ2VtZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KPiAN Cj4gT24gV2VkLCAyMSBOb3YgMjAxOCwgVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0K PiA+IFNvcnJ5IHlvdSBkb27igJl0IGxpa2UgdGhlIGlkZWEsIGJ1dCBwbGVhc2UgZG9u4oCZdCBj YWxsIGl0ICJ0dW5uZWxpbmciIGJlY2F1c2UNCj4gPiB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCB3aGF0IERIQ1B2Nk5E IGlzIGFib3V0LiBJdCBpcyBhYm91dCBhIHVuaWZpZWQgc2VydmljZSB0aGF0DQo+ID4gY29tYmlu ZXMgdGhlIGJlc3QgZWxlbWVudHMgb2YgdGhlIHR3byBzZXJ2aWNlcy4NCj4gDQo+ICJSUyBtZXNz YWdlIGNvbnRhaW5pbmcgYSBESENQdjYgb3B0aW9uIHRoYXQgZW1iZWRzIGEgREhDUHY2IFNvbGlj aXQNCj4gbWVzc2FnZS4iDQo+IA0KPiBXaGVuIEkgcmVhZCB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZg0KPiBodHRwczov L3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtdGVtcGxpbi02bWFuLWRoY3B2Ni1uZG9wdC0wNiNz ZWN0aW9uLTIuMg0KPiBJIHJlYWQgImVtYmVkIiB3aGljaCBmb3IgbWUgaXMgcHJldHR5IG11Y2gg dGhlIHNhbWUgYXMgInR1bm5lbCIuIEFsbCBvZg0KPiAyLjIgaXMgYmFzaWNhbGx5IGp1c3Qgd3Jh cHBpbmcvZW1iZWRkaW5nL3R1bm5lbGluZyBESENQdjYgbWVzc2FnZXMgaW4NCj4gUlMvUkEgbWVz c2FnZXMuDQo+IA0KPiBPciB3aGF0IGFtIEkgbWlzc2luZz8NCg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gSVB2Nk5EIG9w dGlvbiBsaWtlIGFueSBvdGhlciAtIHdlIGRvIG5vdCBjYWxsIFBJT3MsIFJJT3MsIGV0Yy4NCk1U VSBvcHRpb25zLCBldGMuICJ0dW5uZWxpbmciLg0KDQo+IE15IG9wcG9zaXRpb24gdG8gREhDUHY2 IHN0YXRlZnVsIGhlcmUgaXMgImRvIHdlIGFjdHVhbGx5IG5lZWQgZXZlcnl0aGluZw0KPiB0aGF0 IERIQ1B2NiBkb2VzIHRvIHNvbHZlIG91ciBwcm9ibGVtIj8gQW5kIGFsc28sIGRvIHdlIGFjdHVh bGx5IHdhbnQgdG8NCj4gZG8gaXQgZXhhY3RseSB0aGUgc2FtZSBhcyBESENQdjYgZG9lcyBpdD8g Rm9yIGluc3RhbmNlLCBkbyB3ZSB3YW50IERIQ1B2Ng0KPiByZWNvbmZpZ3VyZSB3aGVuIHdlIGlu c3RlYWQgY2FuIGp1c3Qgc2VuZCBtZXNzYWdlcyB3aXRoIDAgbGlmZXRpbWUgYW5kDQo+IGhhdmUg dGhhdCBtZWFuIHRoZSBzYW1lIHRoaW5nPw0KDQpEbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSBqdXN0IG9uZSBvciBhIGZl dyB1c2UgY2FzZXMgaW4gbWluZCB3aGVuIHlvdSBzYXkgInNvbHZlIG91cg0KcHJvYmxlbSI/IFdo YXQgSSBhbSBzdWdnZXN0aW5nIGlzIGEgZ2VuZXJhbCBwdXJwb3NlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRoYXQgc29s dmVzDQpvdXIgcHJvYmxlbXMsIHdoaWNoIGlzIG1vcmUgb3IgbGVzcyBwaWNrZWQgdXAgZm9yIGZy ZWUgYmFzZWQgb24gYWxsIG9mDQp0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgY29kZS4NCg0KPiBGcm9tIHJlYWRpbmcg eW91ciBwcm9wb3NhbCwgeW91IGRvIG5vdCBzYXkgImxldCdzIGp1c3QgdXNlIGZ1bmN0aW9uIFgs IFkNCj4gYW5kIFogb2YgREhDUHY2IGFuZCBub3QgdGhlIHJlc3QiIGJ1dCBpbnN0ZWFkIHlvdSBq dXN0IHNheSAibGV0J3MgZW1iZWQNCj4gYW55IERIQ1B2NiBtZXNzYWdlIGFuZCB0aGF0IHNob3Vs ZCBiZSBzdXBwb3J0ZWQiLg0KDQpXaHkgd291bGQgd2UgdGhyb3cgb3V0IGZ1bmN0aW9ucyB0aGF0 IHdlIG1pZ2h0IG5lZWQgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZQ0KaWYgdGhlIGNvZGUgaXMgYWxyZWFkeSB0aGVy ZT8NCg0KPiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgbXVsdGlwbGUgYXNwZWN0cyBvZiBESENQdjYgdGhhdCBJIGRvIG5v dCBsaWtlIGFuZCB3b3VsZG4ndCB3YW50DQo+IHRvIGdvIGludG8gYSBzb2x1dGlvbiB5b3UncmUg ZGVzY3JpYmluZy4gVGhlIHdob2xlIHJlbGF5IGNvbmNlcHQgaW4NCj4gY29uanVuY3Rpb24gd2l0 aCBQRCBpcyBqdXN0IG5vdCBzcGVjaWZpZWQgKmF0IGFsbCogaW4gYW55IElFVEYgZG9jdW1lbnQg SQ0KPiBrbm93IG9mLg0KDQpUaGF0IGlzIGludGVyZXN0aW5nLCBiZWNhdXNlIERIQ1B2NiByZWxh eSAoaW4gcGFydGljdWxhciwgUkZDNjIyMSBMaWdodHdlaWdodA0KREhDUCBSZWxheSBBZ2VudCkg aXMgYXQgdGhlIGhlYXJ0IG9mIG15IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGFuZCB3b3JrcyB3ZWxsLg0KDQo+ SSd2ZSBoYWQgcGxlbnR5IG9mIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIHByb2JsZW1zIGJhc2VkIG9uIHRoaXMg d2hlcmUNCj4gcmVsYXlzIGp1c3QgZGlkIHRoZSB3cm9uZyB0aGluZy4gSSBkbyBub3Qgd2FudCB0 byBicmluZyB3aXRoIHVzIGFsbCB0aGUNCj4gbGVnYWN5IHRoYXQgREhDUHY2IGhhcyBhbmQgdGhp bmdzIHRoYXQgYXJlIG5vdCBkZWZpbmVkLg0KDQpJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgd2hhdCB5b3UgYXJlIHJl ZmVycmluZyB0byAtIG91ciByZWxheSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbg0Kd29ya3MgYXMgaXQgc2hvdWxk Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MgLSBGcmVkDQoNCj4gPj4+IEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoaXMgZWl0 aGVyLiBBbnl0aGluZyBuZXcgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBicm91Z2h0IGludG8NCj4gPj4+IElQdjZO RCB3b3VsZCBzaW1wbHkgYmUgcmUtY3JlYXRpbmcgd2hhdCBESENQdjYgYWxyZWFkeSBkb2VzLg0K PiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBZZXMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBHb29kLiBUaGVuIHdlIHN0aWNrIHdpdGggREhDUHY2 Lg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhhbmtzIC0gRnJlZA0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIGRvIG5vdCBwdXQgd29yZHMg aW4gbXkgbW91dGguDQo+IA0KPiAtLQ0KPiBNaWthZWwgQWJyYWhhbXNzb24gICAgZW1haWw6IHN3 bWlrZUBzd20ucHAuc2UNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 21 10:06:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A25130DC1; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:06:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8eh6rIaiGah; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D64A1294D0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id DFE14B0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:06:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542823609; bh=Ye0Hj+YER5xD2PKpx5pl+d5kN8v6r/wJIaD22JjISrY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=WqwdY4ILoK0zIOg8frVBoevKgZFcOy70cFApDzBsGZ+W4hW5UiTetrkkDOOqC117Z K1AkYmuyaWFMDqNBTw5VTm0hGmAn5wgHaFu2vUI8JGBQ92Qkh+Sq8cE7E1YkVxCerr r4TambdIXmbGJ8lHgVKd+ny+Tsw5sskGCrqBUa1Y= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD816AF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:06:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:06:49 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:06:54 -0000 On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Do you have just one or a few use cases in mind when you say "solve our > problem"? What I am suggesting is a general purpose solution that solves > our problems, which is more or less picked up for free based on all of > the existing code. See what Ole posted a few emails previous to this. Some examples: What does it mean when you have an IA_NA with 24 hours lease time and the encompassing /64 PIO just arrived with zero lifetime? What does that actually mean? What should the host do? Where is this documented? If you said you would take a lot of DHCP but fix these kinds of problems by ripping out the lease timers or defining exactly what they mean in ND context then I'd be a lot more supportive. But then it wouldn't be DHCPv6 anymore. > That is interesting, because DHCPv6 relay (in particular, RFC6221 Lightweight > DHCP Relay Agent) is at the heart of my implementation and works well. The words "route" and "IA_PD" give zero hits in that document. So if you're using IA_PD then I guess you're doing things outside of what that document specifies? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Nov 21 10:07:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09904130EF3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqbfQgnf63pT; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 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-0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Naveen Kottapalli CC: Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgACBmFgAACUaSQAAWxR0AABACvPA= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:06:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: F22761DD4D4097279F21F1F4270EF9C2213D20BB66501CC5D3E94F5D2BD55A972000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ebc54b66f86444cb931ab0e01acccce3XCH150608nwnosboeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:07:19 -0000 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header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I88QsQNx-nhU; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 824EC130F0D; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id F3583B0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:09:02 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542823743; bh=LT3Ztp9QVw5VyC9UtPfzz7mlnfr2SEjgEs2AWQf1JM8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=p1A4TBofVGqnanaUcIsx+W75DfPdwChPqhweiSnbo9j+eAJBWBT3DwOXX0ihrEfkp NLnYVAKokcsMD55a13IOQd9wakz2+G4MQgTxe5mlsAcXkN6gQj8jqhwsMRwLgL2ZuY G6Snn4nyCUD2mHY3zmZ1r2PazeceU9POreO8xy3k= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F147CAF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:09:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:09:02 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Ole Troan cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG In-Reply-To: <2E73504B-8618-4516-8209-56B44F987B8E@employees.org> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2E73504B-8618-4516-8209-56B44F987B8E@employees.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="-137064504-244531123-1542823742=:14216" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:09:16 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-244531123-1542823742=:14216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Ole Troan wrote: > I would be much more supportive of these efforts if they focused on solving some of the issues that DHCPv6 PD does not deal well with. > > - route injection > - renumbering / reconfiguration > - multiple sources > - arbitrary topologies > > But as long as the idea is to gloss over the hard problems, and replicate DHCPv6 protocol mechanics in ND, it’s hard to get very excited. > It’s quite likely that any effort in this space is going to look an awfully much like HNCP. I agree 100%, and that's why I'm opposing the efforts until they try to solve at least some of these problems. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-244531123-1542823742=:14216-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 10:18:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEB9130F4C; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4UiMoCiPXnL; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 995BC130F35; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALIIL9G031594; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:18:22 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.220]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALIIDNL031519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:18:13 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdc::8988:efdc) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:13 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:13 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539D//4EDgIAAdN9w//+kf4CAAITXwA== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:18:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 90C117FF47E554664C54A2C099CF5092D40F414CD2492E12584C8F7B72E726152000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:18:35 -0000 Hi Mikael, > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:07 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter ; 6man WG ; > v6ops list > Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >=20 > > Do you have just one or a few use cases in mind when you say "solve our > > problem"? What I am suggesting is a general purpose solution that solve= s > > our problems, which is more or less picked up for free based on all of > > the existing code. >=20 > See what Ole posted a few emails previous to this. >=20 > Some examples: >=20 > What does it mean when you have an IA_NA with 24 hours lease time and the > encompassing /64 PIO just arrived with zero lifetime? What does that > actually mean? What should the host do? Where is this documented? >=20 > If you said you would take a lot of DHCP but fix these kinds of problems > by ripping out the lease timers or defining exactly what they mean in ND > context then I'd be a lot more supportive. But then it wouldn't be DHCPv6 > anymore. That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND propo= sal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. > > That is interesting, because DHCPv6 relay (in particular, RFC6221 Light= weight > > DHCP Relay Agent) is at the heart of my implementation and works well. >=20 > The words "route" and "IA_PD" give zero hits in that document. So if > you're using IA_PD then I guess you're doing things outside of what that > document specifies? The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. Thanks - Fred > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Nov 21 10:23:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35AA1294D0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:23:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrMAoWW3NesY; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7250912426A; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 84874B0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:25 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542824605; bh=R3z15IB29E3HGAW+Lwdxqd9Pmona2oKYa6xuk9XZmLY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=eKd66cQ4IwAiR6XagpG0GRkr6xUaINgNi8jUfCcWAksPGwn143owyZdAZCjIas8vx Fvk2ymd4NwEa1kK2vfrGFQu3Lw7wEfOWzPyq0aoy2rSraBeU3qJforao4skat2cLno X0P8jbebqrm3vJrTxwqAKRSG8+jClmK5OkxJg+PU= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819D5AF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:25 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:23:29 -0000 On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND > proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC > and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not glossed over. > The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 > relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated prefixes into the provider edge router." It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might need to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end user. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Nov 21 10:41:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD1130E78; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJAUZioJ1sFk; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA70C130F4D; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wALIenwj063370; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:50 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.219]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wALIemYH063358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:48 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdb::8988:efdb) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:47 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:40:47 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Naveen Kottapalli , Brian E Carpenter , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539D//4EDgIAAdN9w//+kf4CAAITXwP//f82AgACErGA= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:40:47 +0000 Message-ID: <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 57DBBDE2CB3057FA6A5D498E186784885C9CDD94D8FC54E3C2014E042CC78DDF2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:41:04 -0000 Hi Mikael, > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter ; 6man WG ; > v6ops list > Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >=20 > > That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND > > proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC > > and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. >=20 > I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not > glossed over. >=20 > > The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 > > relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. >=20 > Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. >=20 > "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through > a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other > out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated > prefixes into the provider edge router." >=20 > It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might need > to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? > I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just > fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end > user. In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are on one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what the spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole can say more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay agent are on different platforms. Fred > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Nov 21 11:33:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84159130DCD; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YujWIxUqEoSn; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0CF4130DC8; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7272D20089; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id DD99BBD3; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB965BB7; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:33:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Mikael Abrahamsson cc: "Templin \(US\)\, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG In-Reply-To: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:33:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > What does it mean when you have an IA_NA with 24 hours lease time and the > encompassing /64 PIO just arrived with zero lifetime? What does that actually > mean? What should the host do? Where is this documented? > If you said you would take a lot of DHCP but fix these kinds of problems by > ripping out the lease timers or defining exactly what they mean in ND context > then I'd be a lot more supportive. But then it wouldn't be DHCPv6 anymore. Here is a different, but related question to put this in perspective: If the IA_NA or IA_PD has a non-trivial lifetime, but it's on a PPPoE connection (or a LTE/3G link, I guess), and the (PPPoE) link dies, what do you expect when it returns? Basically, the outer "times" kill the inside timers, and really everything works. What I'm actually saying is that DHCPv6 already deals with this problem. I would be rather more happy to see PD done inside unicast ND messages, and I don't much mind if it's done by being able to carry DHCPv6 format options. (The PPP guys are still regretting not doing exactly that for DHCPv4 vs IPCP.) [ps: not much of a fan of PPPoE, even though I've spent ~5 years implementing. It does provide for a useful way to do Third-Party-Internet-Access over ethernet-like technologies, and the resulting competition is good for the Internet. I just wish we were using PPP to negotiate an MPLS or SegmentRouting tag that could statelessly, and trivially be processed in hardware....] -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlv1sxkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW7fgf+LjcApynvWp5kfepi9NvVZY8HSme+uUSKt5K9g/9tzlnervkKLT8tMvu7 Wpf4RaJD5/7JSdicU5aNjHW5tWuHnJdmuIAujZyrqDpixCY5P1i4JcxVsicWN1JH NzEVmUQp1WqPuQzwhzZmDU5SzBonifBpd4Zu5EWGjbA58p0qSkhN8pHJRIWWBkMP 3gSz7sFVD+ODiQE33wHC4wf7B1fbyOGMshYN9uGDgA4ovQG8wWjOoelIumUocrwl ATn99hb4SN395Gxmh9tk2UzTW8lgjB3eVZHR4JJKGtxiNJkB4L9bX2rIvjGROts7 5icjYaDkhZPslPzpZuHX0gFQcerpFA== =3dL9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 11:43:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ACF8130DDC for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:43:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7P4e_mUzypp for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur01olkn0830.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe1f::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A3F126C01 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=JZ7NmLJ3tlVL2mupUerbZEeMJJ9txd2RXgHzKrzqt8A=; b=lL2Lvb4cVlDnNDaybeyvrPUSve8+wUszvzHwer4X3OmE+4IPtRg6gQNJXM/bRlfxjTfjERGLauhnjRc9pP30KoTDWMHQTbybny8oP2JTkzWh858kruKUmxif9gL+Suf0Xi9eTdVKcb3pgZaH9Nk1Vdi2GP12v5PTwY4p6e6Jf7EBW2TfJprXvu0968E4tiuGPGa4LcpUjJNTOsyvHsRi49QNmFcpIwohXBUUIOuIlkWz7I95hu+N3Uqzd9Ms+5LdTajNY2PTsuu9bQMDMSZMUPSo1Ljn/y5NnYBV+1Or8SmlDr/24kHHd0KTLPukObpWLtvCUP04MXCp96yfy9mYzQ== Received: from DB5EUR01FT026.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.51) by DB5EUR01HT030.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:43:16 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.54) by DB5EUR01FT026.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:43:16 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.015; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:43:14 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Warren Kumari , Ted Lemon CC: IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. 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bh=ErCZR1coyX9b2Jc5v1lm0cyVekb2akNv5G3YBBYPyEk=; b=bSwAdLKjJBo69qYA68zQ4L6N7xZQw/ZCJKIKPOYmi7/ggM/QzHhhjkdyzp/bpxNIFt xUqkwl7Lth7qH6drWmsQGAKva0leJ0HAeUybMg17VoNBknWr7l34+qAm7+CKN3SQNBHh AQuwx/+qrIVDMrn6W4Kt/S5mA6YbvYALZg7j8Dnv468e4pqsFgTR7ijgSWWn6TM9V4uC 5zwkB3tOxDtfBTG5KRQVgWo1zvhUfgyk5bMfSMlBPNKaeoLisDQzekolIIFfUwu7Tql5 NBOsN7MHsGVQzcHGBQ7Apu6cmPPn1q0utaS3FqjGsCWWD5g+4dPXHFgPDKABZ1unnf4Z pCWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbrH8dA59om9H3pksqSu0wAoqyk8ddr4/TZVcVMuM7qMxZoSECy gbHeml2OwcdEuACsAfqqLTvqz9QZt37uIJdYFy0eJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Wn/P0XS5R7inHCvCd+SpUJ8xePHrWeEW2zFjOV8By/pfuXc3PeudWXFEcFVZDVS0kWQozfAruc/oW3p3qi114= X-Received: by 2002:a37:c12:: with SMTP id 18mr6753874qkm.317.1542829630991; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:47:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Lemon Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:46:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Warren Kumari , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ac921057b3204f6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:47:17 -0000 --0000000000001ac921057b3204f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You need to become a member, and generally your employer needs to become a member as well. Here's some introductory information: https://standards.ieee.org/develop/index.html?utm_source=3Dmm_link&utm_camp= aign=3Dfaw&utm_medium=3Dstd&utm_term=3Ddevelop%20standards%2C%20find%20work= ing%20group On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:43 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t see any e-mail ID representing a WG there, almost close t= o find a > way to start a direct discussion and cannot find a single step-by-step > guide, one more thing to mark, is there a page with all-in-one informatio= n > to route for other pages other than what is mentioned in the recent > website. > > > > *From:* Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] > *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54 PM > *To:* Ted Lemon > *Cc:* Khaled Omar ; Simon Hobson < > linux@thehobsons.co.uk>; IPv6 Operations > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > > Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF. > > > > > > Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS (and > 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to > discuss this. > > W > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: > > There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to > the main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of > the new signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different > values, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream in= to > a new digital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information > carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits ca= n > be eencoded on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to > compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including > compressing an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address > space using fractional IPv4 address). > > Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came > here took us to other topics. > > Thanks, > > Khaled > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond > *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson > *Subject:* [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > > > On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 > voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of > voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc a= nd > the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so th= e > 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. > > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each > 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. > > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. > > > Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. Th= e > problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem > is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue > TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of > phase, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance > issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that > change tolerance over time. That's without taking into account the > Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at > higher frequencies. > > It's basically a non starter. > > Kindest regards, > > Olivier > > > -- > > Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD > > http://www.gih.com/ocl.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > -- > > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea > in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of > pants. > ---maf > --0000000000001ac921057b3204f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You need to become a member, and generall= y your employer needs to become a member as well.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here's so= me introductory information:


On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:43 = PM Khaled Omar <eng.khale= d.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

I don=E2=80=99t see any e-mail ID rep= resenting a WG there, almost close to find a way to start a direct discussi= on and cannot find a single step-by-step guide, one more thing to mark, is there a page with all-in-one information to route for ot= her pages other than what is mentioned in the recent website.

=C2=A0

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54 PM
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co= .uk>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wr= ote:

Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope f= or the IETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS = (and 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to discuss this.

W

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.oma= r@outlook.com> wrote:

There are = many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the main issu= e that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the new signal, we can't call it analogue just because it = has different values, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digit= al stream into a new digital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of= information carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits can be eencoded on every one = output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to compress 32 bits in 5 bits = (so this will help in many things including compressing an IPv6 address to = be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fractional IPv4 address).

Sorry for = discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came here took us = to other topics.

Thanks,=

Khaled

From: Olivie= r MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:

Look, elec= tronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 voltage, be= low 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0= .2, etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, = etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For exampl= e, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00000 has a = different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for= more discussions anywhere.


Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. = The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other probl= em is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to ana= logue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's with= out taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier


-- 
Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.g=
ih.com/ocl.html

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


=C2=A0

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it = was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf

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Or longer. Routing prefixes in IPv6 can be any length up to /128. Without regard to the whole "Why /64?" debate, we must ensure that all prefix mechanisms are agnostic on the actual prefix length. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 21 11:58:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DADA130DCD; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:58:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PhXhPABFw9On; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x644.google.com (mail-pl1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BE4E1286E3; 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WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:58:58 -0000 On 2018-11-22 07:40, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Mikael, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter ; 6man WG ; >> v6ops list >> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> >>> That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND >>> proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC >>> and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. >> >> I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not >> glossed over. >> >>> The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 >>> relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. >> >> Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. >> >> "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through >> a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other >> out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated >> prefixes into the provider edge router." >> >> It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might need >> to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? >> I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just >> fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end >> user. > > In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are on > one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what the > spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole can say > more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay > agent are on different platforms. Since DHCPv6 is a separate entity from any routing protocol, this is a case where inside a single box they could be linked by a privately defined API but in different boxes they would need a protocol, which could of course be either proprietary or standardised. What's new here? Brian From nobody Wed Nov 21 12:07:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C3C130DC5 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:07:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MH5geEqkiE7L for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092066052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.66.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 365A0130DC7 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:07:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3rrqaBHZCXB+/p5my8P4r//AFchpyZOfs2WyE1yQdBw=; b=LwmLdCUedMNRbKEicgOnwLQMoHTpjONx2KDgYx4t+RHz1hxrRktlgTmBvlk8jxVKBXCuMWFSVi/zVPH3njp9r4Itbj8MegkvGG/ya7UXFMQj8npypIsx2Gyf9TsZ7rDQps9IbMXNEWY9396Gv69wc+3xFUaRlcW3ldbsdShKJlcbbF5eNAKSRqC9GISh1ZQjp9uWi+zF7ol5rjjfpjPnUjiXKcIADjBxV5xKnIPyfaRCXOXHW1IFi8ZgUh8ICtHOC3sxozCaVzY0GQGDg+p1IMf5fjNoCc+kNgOnJadTVcT2dNoIODmCfJqzD5iQOpuir/LiL2VDX38+Qk7NoqcYTg== Received: from VE1EUR01FT013.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.51) by VE1EUR01HT136.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.3.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:07:16 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.2.59) by VE1EUR01FT013.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.215) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:07:15 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.015; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:07:15 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Ted Lemon CC: Warren Kumari , IPv6 Ops WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. 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<22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Lemon Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:12:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Warren Kumari , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0f639057b325fad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:12:57 -0000 --000000000000f0f639057b325fad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And. I don't think individuals can participate in standards activity there without a sponsor (I will admit that I'm not an expert, though). Remember, they are specifying how hardware works, and so it's important that there be somebody making the hardware who can test the specification. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 3:07 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cor=E2=80=9D? > > > > *From:* Ted Lemon [mailto:mellon@fugue.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:47 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar > *Cc:* Warren Kumari ; IPv6 Ops WG > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > You need to become a member, and generally your employer needs to become = a > member as well. Here's some introductory information: > > > > > https://standards.ieee.org/develop/index.html?utm_source=3Dmm_link&utm_ca= mpaign=3Dfaw&utm_medium=3Dstd&utm_term=3Ddevelop%20standards%2C%20find%20wo= rking%20group > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:43 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: > > I don=E2=80=99t see any e-mail ID representing a WG there, almost close t= o find a > way to start a direct discussion and cannot find a single step-by-step > guide, one more thing to mark, is there a page with all-in-one informatio= n > to route for other pages other than what is mentioned in the recent > website. > > > > *From:* Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] > *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54 PM > *To:* Ted Lemon > *Cc:* Khaled Omar ; Simon Hobson < > linux@thehobsons.co.uk>; IPv6 Operations > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > > Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope for the IETF. > > > > > > Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS (and > 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to > discuss this. > > W > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: > > There are many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to > the main issue that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of > the new signal, we can't call it analogue just because it has different > values, but we can call it digital because it encodes a digital stream in= to > a new digital stream with limited values, no.2 the amount of information > carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits ca= n > be eencoded on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to > compress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including > compressing an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address > space using fractional IPv4 address). > > Sorry for discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came > here took us to other topics. > > Thanks, > > Khaled > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond > *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson > *Subject:* [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > > > > > On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 > voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of > voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc a= nd > the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so th= e > 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. > > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each > 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. > > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. > > > Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. Th= e > problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other problem > is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to analogue > TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of > phase, interference between the different signals as well as tolerance > issues such as thermal and age tolerance - resistors and capacitors that > change tolerance over time. That's without taking into account the > Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at > higher frequencies. > > It's basically a non starter. > > Kindest regards, > > Olivier > > -- > > Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD > > http://www.gih.com/ocl.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > -- > > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea > in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of > pants. > ---maf > > --000000000000f0f639057b325fad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think individuals can partici= pate in standards activity there without a sponsor (I will admit that I'= ;m not an expert, though).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Remember, they are specifying how ha= rdware works, and so it's important that there be somebody making the h= ardware who can test the specification.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 3:07 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:

=E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cor= =E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0

From: Ted Lemon [mailto:mellon@fugue.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:47 PM
To: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>; IPv6 Ops WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.

=C2=A0

You need to become a member, and generally your empl= oyer needs to become a member as well.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here's some introduc= tory information:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:43 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.oma= r@outlook.com> wrote:

I don=E2=80=99t see any e-mail ID rep= resenting a WG there, almost close to find a way to start a direct discussi= on and cannot find a single step-by-step guide, one more thing to mark, is th= ere a page with all-in-one information to route for other pages other than = what is mentioned in the recent website.

=C2=A0

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:54 PM
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co= .uk>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:32 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wr= ote:

Mr. Omar, layer 1 signaling is simply out of scope f= or the IETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Indeed. It is also (as stated by the chairs) out of scope for V6OPS = (and 6MAN) -- the IEEE (https://www.ieee.org/) may be a place worth trying to discuss this.

W

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:21 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.oma= r@outlook.com> wrote:

There are = many issues here that needs some focusing then we can move to the main issu= e that has relevance to the WG charter, no.1 is the name of the new signal, we can't call it a= nalogue just because it has different values, but we can call it digital be= cause it encodes a digital stream into a new digital stream with limited va= lues, no.2 the amount of information carried (I.e. what is the standard track that determines how many bits can= be eencoded on every one output), no.3 compressing normal binary bits to c= ompress 32 bits in 5 bits (so this will help in many things including compr= essing an IPv6 address to be 20 bits or increasing the IPv4 address space using fractional IPv4 address).<= /span>

Sorry for = discussing irrelevant topics here but the main idea that came here took us = to other topics.

Thanks,

Khaled

From: Olivie= r MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:02:52 PM
To: Khaled Omar; v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

On 18/11/2018 01:22, Khaled Omar wrote:

Look, elec= tronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 voltage, be= low 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of voltages that can represent a 0 are li= sted on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the values of voltages that can repre= sent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.=

For exampl= e, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00000 has a = different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for= more discussions anywhere.


Congratulations, you've just invented a digital to analogue converter. = The problem is that these have been around for a long time. The other probl= em is that the type of encoding you're speaking about is similar to ana= logue TV signals like composite video etc. You immediately run into problems of phase, interference between the diffe= rent signals as well as tolerance issues such as thermal and age tolerance = - resistors and capacitors that change tolerance over time. That's with= out taking into account the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem and resulting Aliasing especially at higher frequencies.<= br>
It's basically a non starter.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.g=
ih.com/ocl.html

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


=C2=A0

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it = was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf

--000000000000f0f639057b325fad-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 12:20:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B980130DCB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.961 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.961 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBnPGJsbgpTk; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2FB6130DC5; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3339; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1542831601; x=1544041201; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=xXpzxYRbYWwxkq9j3gpRFpVPxNS8QI927bbm3gFR0Q0=; b=c6GQVAptXGQqU3wTdX7vCR/76Plk3PupvDIuey7Wn33jwkLsRLEyufbL 7YKpORJgNgmqIi71LjmnYAcGDOqkq8uTO85X+AWJkXEB8FOI2lnaIR7eO j7a+z0wadZYyYJb0J2m05+ZBWPc9vZFwEYK6cArXKicYnhoY00WYh3e9k c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAAByvPVb/5ldJa1iGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBUQQBAQEBAQsBggNmgQInCowGjgyJCY4vFIFmCwEBGAu?= =?us-ascii?q?ESQKECiI0CQ0BAwEBAgEBAm0cDIU8AQEBAwEBATg0CQIFBwQCAQgRBAEBAR4?= =?us-ascii?q?JByEGCxQJCAIEAQ0FCIMagWkDDQgPrS+ELQGDUg2CFAWMBReBf4ERgxKBVIE?= =?us-ascii?q?CRQEBgSVDMYUjAp9PLgkCjX+DIyCRBo5LiTkCERSBJx84gVVwFTuCbIJQiEy?= =?us-ascii?q?FPkExAY01gR8BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,262,1539648000"; d="scan'208";a="484622677" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Nov 2018 20:20:00 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wALKK0aA023765 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:20:00 GMT Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:19:59 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:19:59 -0600 From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" To: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin (US), Fred L" , Mikael Abrahamsson CC: v6ops list , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUdjVOcF0cyWOaX0SZYatMPuMYT6VEU/gAgAAXt4CAAAVAAIACGweAgAXDcwCAAIu4AIAA6ecAgACQvoCAABGrgIAADV2AgAACroCAAATDgIAADF0AgAAQD4CAABgeAIAC1ZYAgAAHSwCAAB+3gIADBDCAgAAjLACAAXKzgIAAHBAAgAMM2YCAAAwJAIABA0uAgABQyACAABF2AIAAAQWAgAAFzYCAABO4gIAABaeAgAADLgCAAAF1gIAABNqAgAAVzwD//5/PIA== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:19:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.98.1.196] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:20:04 -0000 > Maybe Ole can say > more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay > agent are on different platforms. Well, not Ole ... And, as relay agents are typically also the routers and they see the DHCPv6= packets already, they just snoop the inside to find the client message and= do what's needed for the PD and to advertise the prefixes. At least, that'= s what happens for DOCSIS on the CMTS. - Bernie -----Original Message----- From: v6ops On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 2:59 PM To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix= -management-00.txt On 2018-11-22 07:40, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Mikael, >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter ; 6man WG ; >> v6ops list >> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pre= fix-management-00.txt >> >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> >>> That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND >>> proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC >>> and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. >> >> I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not >> glossed over. >> >>> The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 >>> relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. >> >> Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. >> >> "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through >> a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other >> out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated >> prefixes into the provider edge router." >> >> It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might nee= d >> to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? >> I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just >> fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end >> user. >=20 > In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are on > one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what the > spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole can say > more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay > agent are on different platforms. Since DHCPv6 is a separate entity from any routing protocol, this is a case where inside a single box they could be linked by a privately defined API but in different boxes they would need a protocol, which could of course be either proprietary or standardised. What's new here? Brian _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Nov 21 12:23:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A496130DCB for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:23:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JTCM00hKob2o for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065078.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4141D130DC5 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:23:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QOZ5R49AGzhUpKR4SNsvW4BYT7ap85NgZmEsT0y31s4=; b=PiB2AuJTuiuPUiYSjXH14pzBVB40hpWQ6Ig1G4aW/c3OeNM5rThDFqLXYhUUGxeObGcv17PikujO3SaM/i0BlD4kn/FGW42yJoSdTJZ4wTHzxYYyDA0pcO7+nfeifInclhC1BboHhyFET8InP4nWjao6790R5fiP0hDmUDxsQ/A+x/13UJaL5kkWWXJXm4YS2zEHy7GrSyJLJknu2br8eCOCclyM7YDkO80l/iwMWRwuA+WM6tOzwnTQaq+Fc7IwrW9mtE7HIu4w6/mF6Flwi/vMTFi2IeACoFwBWtBNO+wssK/vJa2MoSR+PNbD9saqejWSFXxUBsi4esiaEQcWsw== Received: from HE1EUR01FT017.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01HT045.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:23:34 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.56) by HE1EUR01FT017.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.166) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:23:34 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.015; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:23:34 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Ted Lemon CC: Warren Kumari , IPv6 Ops WG Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. 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<05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Paul Marks Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:15:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccdfa8057b3340f8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:15:47 -0000 --000000000000ccdfa8057b3340f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:24 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > And =E2=80=A6 I understand, sounds like no chance, but giving up is not a= n option > J > > You're likely to find that electrical engineers have already solved the problem you're working on, decades ago. For example: - 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels. - 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modulation). - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Ethernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ modulation). There are many more advanced coding techniques used by long-range copper, optical, and wireless systems. A protocol like IPv6 doesn't care how bits are transmitted through a physical medium, as long as those bits can be reconstructed at the receiving end. --000000000000ccdfa8057b3340f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 21= , 2018 at 12:24 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

And =E2=80=A6 I understand, sounds like no c= hance, but giving up is not an option J

<= div>
You're likely to find that electrical engineers have= already solved the problem you're working on, decades ago.
<= br>
For example:
- 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage lev= els.
- 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modulation).<= /div>
- 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Ethernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-= DSQ modulation).

There are many more advanced codi= ng techniques used by long-range copper, optical, and wireless systems.
=

A protocol like IPv6 doesn't care how bits ar= e transmitted through a physical medium, as long as those bits can be recon= structed at the receiving end.
--000000000000ccdfa8057b3340f8-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 13:33:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EE212D4EF; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:33:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rERNkh3DrCNo; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B908612D4E9; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 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list" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539D//4EDgIAAdN9w//+kf4CAAITXwP//f82AgACErGD//5X9AAANmKEg Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:33:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 8F94F4772E9A84C7E25E760CB10610027B1ECA2B0CE4774B3228EFC0966418942000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:33:45 -0000 SGkgQnJpYW4sDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogQnJpYW4g RSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgW21haWx0bzpicmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6 IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjEsIDIwMTggMTE6NTkgQU0NCj4gVG86IFRlbXBsaW4gKFVT KSwgRnJlZCBMIDxGcmVkLkwuVGVtcGxpbkBib2VpbmcuY29tPjsgTWlrYWVsIEFicmFoYW1zc29u 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ZXRoZXIgaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgYm94Lg0KDQo+IFdoYXQncyBuZXcgaGVyZT8NCg0KTm90aGluZyAt IGJ1dCwgdGhhdCBpcyBhIGdvb2QgdGhpbmcuDQoNClRoYW5rcyAtIEZyZWQNCg0KPiAgICAgQnJp YW4NCg== From nobody Wed Nov 21 13:45:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123C4130DC5; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:45:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aNgB5-D_7ve1; Wed, 21 Nov 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[130.216.38.91]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z62sm31402117pfl.33.2018.11.21.13.45.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:45:24 -0800 (PST) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4f4748fd-4697-19b9-49a5-a569b6f25670@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:45:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:45:28 -0000 Just to raise a gripe: > What I am using is the standard linux "ip" command, as in: > > # ip route add > # ip route del > etc. And wouldn't life be better if the IETF didn't have an aversion to defining APIs, so that you could do that in an O/S independent way? Regards Brian On 2018-11-22 10:33, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Brian, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 11:59 AM >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Mikael Abrahamsson >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; v6ops list >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> >> On 2018-11-22 07:40, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> Hi Mikael, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter ; 6man WG ; >>>> v6ops list >>>> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >>>> >>>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>>> >>>>> That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND >>>>> proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC >>>>> and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. >>>> >>>> I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not >>>> glossed over. >>>> >>>>> The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 >>>>> relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. >>>> >>>> Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. >>>> >>>> "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through >>>> a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other >>>> out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated >>>> prefixes into the provider edge router." >>>> >>>> It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might need >>>> to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? >>>> I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just >>>> fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end >>>> user. >>> >>> In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are on >>> one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what the >>> spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole can say >>> more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay >>> agent are on different platforms. >> >> Since DHCPv6 is a separate entity from any routing protocol, this >> is a case where inside a single box they could be linked by a privately >> defined API > > What I am using is the standard linux "ip" command, as in: > > # ip route add > # ip route del > etc. > >> but in different boxes they would need a protocol, which >> could of course be either proprietary or standardised. > > Bernie contributed the point about relay agents gleaning route > info from the DHCPv6 messages they forward. Actually, that is > also what my LDRA code does, even though everything is all > together in the same box. > >> What's new here? > > Nothing - but, that is a good thing. > > Thanks - Fred > >> Brian From nobody Wed Nov 21 14:39:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BC2128D0C for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:39:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qV0S-jdD8Iyg for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092067081.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.67.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04C12124D68 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:39:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BqHyKg98gCGi2LNVHP9UksxHRRZwMikIwkGCSjefqT8=; b=G+ERu2ORePb4FVvLKqIIhi9714K1DBOiarnAIk5j4rLPKkqkUm4U1h6oQv/Ai/4JUBLbkAggqzAcey759OsgspYq/MwW6+pB7fJ6gN4wLkCQsAxQ/o91vvG4zVyz2PHBH0ZkArmDNQWDYQ2MZXr1dE4kEQk8jQdVWKE8y9foL4yM7IzJsFbDQVj3KEyffK9jUuJSqK/sNkY3BWdCUU8b7PxHz0lMipy2AdH0/gE9y0WI7rRv61gYZn220sP8kVNthYDsmDyGSb0hKUY5zzWdWKRnupQNpEFMXQQ7MN1WY38D5MybS7aZ4KmwC0eJzyo5oIkL9jUt8bsjnQ65t6cddw== Received: from AM5EUR02FT027.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.57) by AM5EUR02HT043.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:39:25 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.54) by AM5EUR02FT027.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.127) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:39:25 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.015; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:39:25 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Paul Marks CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jqVlKixtyvOmHht0KU0j4IszltCJMNdW53/fLQvVA/c=; b=ApZp5DbhmD2H7ZBL4tuyuNkjap5ey8TWn8VJapmjCGtpQK4OHO348n1M/QJk4XBh2B PLqMTYVaUpBZCksehnqzbpOzsQ+HzokjucSX4KNgyNrnig8veGW6aRPkp4sbNkj++PTR EVqvsHLXkt6vRF5mxD2yiBhyWDtFm5woeKWNKcPrUPq6ak8yzgxaphwNF0rmzoHt0k1T Tqx3vGjGUNN6bfK+HmB+KbGOcJSkRb875RCVGQlk47jSHBsoYUbt9PL+zKO2kIJ6hj9S krIoDY/GSCa5CzbvkZLw4ZY9/75F9Ex2n7lOvNpD9TDq9Bx9lY7as2hPVZEatwAag+f2 cZaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jqVlKixtyvOmHht0KU0j4IszltCJMNdW53/fLQvVA/c=; b=IYeqaIyzLu8HRg4tMRf74fWYWo+VYyP5nnl+OBd9zppyD9BlnIaxmRBOaG1BX/QytT 0tyMsgXxeXT1Vjgc8sDLWk9lTN+N/VxpJ6fp+f/WEm5afms9mgpEIuMxs8lrOUGucTjx lWtxQXjwGiSdofZqh5phijdE0WjKiIsz8VQi/1/YYOBF7QoAnJYxydZ1RtKT1Qaw1tsI +AebR2JqGztHC4ioPwUPChPyVRNtjPNiRlB42U4WPpPYW43rWKvSoeN1UeD7zmHJ79/y wTWJQrxqbJ/r/6idXUMq76wUNb58RUWGolTf0vp6i8Oc98q1ujFhTCo6VG+3ObzzrLq1 YHAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJnTVuJqBNk8ZqqwCwBKluFWp5ca2xQa+KGUga+BEtZ8HEGyeP9 TYQ/oMhDBy+wkSijWdVuw4Sdfkvmvs320UooJ1t2qw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fE+W3Tg4/icbZj3yYeZSWLIhZdz/VjP63nVK4o0c9Lqr68WhWQsHAOCUSyU36ofXjoo8JBj179RV4B66UIqxg= X-Received: by 2002:a81:6156:: with SMTP id v83-v6mr9306708ywb.173.1542844509260; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:55:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Paul Marks Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:54:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb8aa4057b357a72" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:55:13 -0000 --000000000000eb8aa4057b357a72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar wrote: > You're likely to find that electrical engineers have already solved the > problem you're working on, decades ago. > > > > For example: > > - 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels. > > - 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modulation). > > =C3=98 - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Ethernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-= DSQ > modulation). > > > > First, the discussion was about compressing 32-bits into 5-bits that woul= d > help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 encapsulation, the solution was an > encoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is > something newer than your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits > represented in 100 different voltage values (still moree to do). > > > Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonly used with cable modems) can represent 8 bits per symbol: - An IPv4 address needs 4 symbols - An IPv6 address needs 16 symbols But this example doesn't help, because QAM symbols are *not bits*; see below. > A protocol like IPv6 doesn't care how bits are transmitted through a > physical medium, as long as those bits can be reconstructed at the > receiving end. > > > > A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion should be around the clear > details of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is describing with no confusion f= or > the reader. > Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using a single voltage (out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be no closer to implementing an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP addresses are not made of voltages. They are made of bits, and the number of bits is fixed by their definition. A bit is a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1. Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5 bits, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess board with 49 squares. You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't be a triangle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess board. Likewise, you could compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) *things*= , but those *things* would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 address. In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable. When you encounter such a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something else. --000000000000eb8aa4057b357a72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= ; wrote:

You're likely to find that electrical engineers = have already solved the problem you're working on, decades ago.<= u>

=C2=A0

For example:

- 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels.=

- 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modul= ation).

=C3=98= =C2=A0 - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Et= hernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ modulation).<= u>

=C2=A0

First, the discussion was about compressing = 32-bits into 5-bits that would help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 encap= sulation, the solution was an encoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is something newer th= an your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits represented in 100 differe= nt voltage values (still moree to do).

=C2=A0


Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonl= y used with cable modems) can represent 8 bits per symbol:
- An I= Pv4 address needs 4 symbols
- An IPv6 address needs 16 symbol= s

But this example doesn't help, because QAM s= ymbols are not bits; see below.

> A protocol like IPv6 doesn't= care how bits are transmitted through a physical medium, as long as those = bits can be reconstructed at the receiving end.

=C2=A0

A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion s= hould be around the clear details of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is descri= bing with no confusion for the reader.

<= div>
Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using= a single voltage (out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be = no closer to implementing an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP = addresses are not made of voltages.=C2=A0 They are made of bits, and the nu= mber of bits is fixed by their definition.

A bit i= s a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1.

<= /div>
Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states i= nto 5 bits, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a che= ss board with 49 squares.=C2=A0 You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wou= ldn't be a triangle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it = wouldn't be a chess board.

Likewise, you could= compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) things, but those things=C2=A0would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 add= ress.

In mathematics, some problems are truly unso= lvable.=C2=A0 When you encounter such a problem, the correct solution is to= give up and do something else.
--000000000000eb8aa4057b357a72-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 16:41:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67930130E4C; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:41:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ykn43JnYtzGh; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A170E130E44; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id u18so5301056lff.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:41:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3oSzU+tvGlvDb2BFwaVczZyfXWYDkQOBwYRmCWdTa1c=; b=joYt+gWK6WLHG306gQm74Vsr/J1jXmEkEfLckyUW6gDCqbWTXWrTyy/2p7XRtGePxP lFcsxkdAoVw1npXUL79TsyLq3Zxk354FfZCNTDV/OHHIzFglgWAq8im13Um7C4hIqZck IrjKKw45MzJS5uhHb/fNCo/RBOR/X4QZcsRQiN7Zko9UGJAwLeuZg1Y6BgoerDBtJxHj 2GgO1jRWV2Cii1fqiliauv21+vfixzjCVLNsRHolOdPE4ta7xcdacpHkif+TS60mMMsr mghAe3gfjr0ZChQ/f8xWfy2SVei9VItb4UG64+y/3LvtsYwliUlX8yVeT2Y2Rqed68Xq eDXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3oSzU+tvGlvDb2BFwaVczZyfXWYDkQOBwYRmCWdTa1c=; b=WXkO8VsW8x1mP45K25CqwbEI2n4XVNxQKAA3TEonFqsJpp0L4h0PbB9nfrsvfHpQi3 DLyf48ytTho4sK7K7zAmv7R7YbcekWm+v49Sef5+G2PMrbMTGtQLKkGmqL7rEnCLeyqp jE3UtIA/o9Th9W9Clk7AoMB00iNR9WHFrhu+rtw/bLR93iQFux3n3+otpzm/gcu19t0o rRcK7PFRmmw/P+Zk49S4d6cuX1jsoJH4nCWeoqpqCaSLheN8O0qDjaaAYndo8HbflCJ3 MLoqq3CD27YnAMtOzrZz+xQzOam33Q2FZOIIPAzvZfGjy4Z86VKCo3IEKypwalG9ppRI jC/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKumU0Zvk+thEz6HXWU2u8xNa5g4PTiaynSIiQ3Yp8VT9jq6Tqk dqHdV4snl2oIqErryuGXl4eg41xUL0fCjxKQPJI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e6vrrbllJsY71jTNMceKjDfxv98cAf+niSVKTLuNGVitVk/3FdCY4luhhzyUQ19BMyfmlWxQyPUmytMGC+DyE= X-Received: by 2002:a19:a28e:: with SMTP id l136mr5390457lfe.87.1542847274333; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:41:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 06:11:05 +0530 Message-ID: To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000babd3a057b361f87" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 00:41:25 -0000 --000000000000babd3a057b361f87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, I really don't want to do the feeding stuff and will continue the work as it is progressing now. It's useful for us to continue work as we have been doing since last 2 months. I will add appropriate citations as you want. I really want to focus myself on improving the document technically and solve at least some of the core issues very soon. Everyone's help is much appreciated. Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 23:37 Templin (US), Fred L Hi Naveen, > > > > The reason why the advice of a similar thing to DHCPv6 DUID not taken was= , > there is a fundamental difference between your draft and mine. > > > > >> About the node identifier, an stateful service requires a node > idenfitier for keeping > > >> track of what node resources have been delegated to. Your draft needs > some form of > > >> node identifier that would be similar to DHCPv6 DUID, but all that > exists for RS/RA that > > >> I am aware of is SLLAO. > > > > Your draft proposes an unified approach of using DHCPv6 inside RS/RA, > whereas my draft says things can be done without DHCPv6 and any other new > options or flags too. > > > > >> My draft proposes four alternatives, of which DHCPv6 inside RS/RA is > only one of the > > >> alternatives. One of the alternatives (including PIOs in RS messages) > is the same as > > >> is described in your draft, except that your draft deprecates the need > for an =E2=80=98X=E2=80=99 bit. > > >> What we should have done (and what could still be done) is to list the > =E2=80=9CPIO in RS with > > >> no X bit=E2=80=9D method as a fifth alternative in my draft, and then = your > draft could focus > > >> on the details of the new protocol it requires. > > > > As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' was cited in > respective places of my draft. I don't know how more to acknowledge your > inputs in my draft. If you feel that you are not acknowledged well, plea= se > let me know what citation changes I can do in my draft to make you happy. > > > > >> I don=E2=80=99t see any citations of =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdho= st=E2=80=99. What I do see > > >> is section 4 use cases that are covered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6op= s-pdhost=E2=80=99 > > >> or if not adequately covered there then should be offered as input to > > >> my draft and then cited from your draft. > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:30 AM > *To:* Templin (US), Fred L > *Cc:* Brian E Carpenter ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Fred, > > > > Being a new entrant in the forum with my draft, I will always be grateful > and acknowledge all the contributions. In fact when I shared the draft > with your for review before submission, I sent to other senior members of > the forum. For that matter @Ole, @Brian and whoever contributes their > names will be mentioned in upcoming version of my draft. > > > > The reason why the advice of a similar thing to DHCPv6 DUID not taken was= , > there is a fundamental difference between your draft and mine. Your draf= t > proposes an unified approach of using DHCPv6 inside RS/RA, whereas my dra= ft > says things can be done without DHCPv6 and any other new options or flags > too. > > > > As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' was cited in > respective places of my draft. I don't know how more to acknowledge your > inputs in my draft. If you feel that you are not acknowledged well, plea= se > let me know what citation changes I can do in my draft to make you happy. > > > > Finally, I would like to use this forum to improvise the draft more > technically. You can directly message me. > > > > Yours, > Naveen. > > > > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 20:18, Templin (US), Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > Hi Naveen, > > > > Also the idea of including a PIO in an RS message was originally mine as > documented > > in my draft. Others may claim that they brought up the idea first, in > which case I > > would be happy to honor their drafts. Your contribution was to not includ= e > any > > special bits in the RS PIO, which I agree is a good contribution. But, in > hindsight, > > the idea should have been offered as a contribution to my draft even if > the new > > protocol were to be documented in a separate draft. > > > > Also, I told you that you need to say something about node identifiers th= at > > parallels the DHCPv6 DUID for client and server IDs. You did not take my > > advice, and so that is a missing aspect of your proposal. The only > candidate > > I am aware of for RS/RA is the SLLAO option, but that only gives link-lay= er > > address, and not any of the other type of identifiers offered by DHCPv6. > > > > Finally, your use case is already covered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops= -pdhost=E2=80=99, > > which shows that DHCPv6 is applicable for the needs. If you think there > > is something different about your use case, that would be useful input > > for =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 but not materi= al for a new draft. > > In any case, your document needs to cite =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdh= ost=E2=80=99. > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:12 PM > *To:* Templin (US), Fred L > *Cc:* Brian E Carpenter ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Fred, > > > > Am aware that there are many open source softwares available. But the use > cases that I mentioned in my draft holds good with what I mentioned below= . > > > > I agree you suggested to include Nonce in RS / RA. That's why your > contribution is recognized and your name is mentioned in the draft under > *contributors*. But the whole idea of doing something with just RS / RA > with out the need of new option flags or message types was from me which = we > discussed in call. If you want we can take this discussion we can take > offline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Naveen, > > > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand that; there are a number of very good > publicly-available DHCPv6 > > implementations that support prefix delegation today. And, to instrument > RS/RA to > > perform prefix delegation under a new protocol would require a non-trivia= l > amount > > of new code. So, why not just use DHCPv6? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > PS Please also do not forget that the idea of using the Nonce as a > transaction ID > > vessel came from me. > > > > *From:* Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM > *To:* Brian E Carpenter > *Cc:* Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < > otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list ; 6man WG > > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > > > > Hello Brian, > > > > Comments inline. > > > Yours, > Naveen. > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Hello Brian, > > > > Please find comments inline. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > Naveen > > > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >>> Hello Brian, > >>> > >>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a resource > >> allocation > >>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see that > missing > >>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC to > function > >>> even with proposed protocol? > >> > >> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahnism > >> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguously. > >> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an unsolicited > >> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assigning a > >> prefix, which are totally different actions. > >> > > > > Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolicit= ed > > and solicited RA. Do we need to distinguish like that? As per my > current > > knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is > received > > from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning the > > prefix unsolicited. > > Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand > your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or > by DHCPv6-ND. > > Naveen] I would see this as partially true. As one of the forum member > mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefix. Even in our gateway > too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devic= es > directly tunneled over GRE. Consider the case of described in RFC8273, > where the prefixes are assigned to devices upon receipt of RS. So, it > needn't always be a configuration or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or > assignment. > > > > So, since both node and router will have context of > > prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF f= or > > nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of > this > > in next version of draft. > > But there is no field in an RA for a nonce. > > Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing. > > > >> > >> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practice > >> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. You > really > >> need some kind of two-phase commit. > > > > > > Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of > losing > > a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply. A two way commit will induce more del= ay > > in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as th= e > > retry mechanism is in place. > > A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being > allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest > that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of > four messages. > > Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerably safe. This can be = a > subject of future study. > > > > I would rather say that the resource is never > > lost. That is because, from router perspective the resource is allocat= ed > > even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node. A device will > anyway > > retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocated > > prefix. > > But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement > for safe resource allocation. > > > > > The standard RA doesn't have this > >> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, and it is > >> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't matter. > >> > > > > Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, didn'= t > > want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed = in > > this draft. What kind of difference do you see? > > As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". > Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly different > statement. > > Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all routers might not be > eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (for example, whoever didn= 't > go for a < /64 prefix allocation). There must not be a big change in > existing behavior. Can you please help me understand your comment? > > > >> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essential > >> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or > >> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give a /56 > >> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?" you need an > >> identifier for the box.) > >> > > Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers > > configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router can > log > > using the mac address of the device. We too do the same thing in our > > router. > > /56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested. > Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But > if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved. > > Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is not a usable solutio= n > in my case and across all platforms (might be for others too). That is > reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the > group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itself. > > > Brian > > > > >> > >>> > >>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is the term > >>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub pool. > >> > >> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment" are all fundamentally the > >> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function of a > >> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a > >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you to justif= y. > >> Why do that? > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>> Please correct me if am wrong. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> Naveen > >>> > >>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter < > >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>> Naveen, > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 ND RS/RA > messages > >>>> requires > >>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing protocol (namel= y, > >>>> DHCPv6). > >>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND option but > >>>> requires a > >>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your draft yet. My > >> feeling > >>>> is that once > >>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look very much like > >>>> DHCPv6, and > >>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protocols. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the protocol shoul= d > be > >>>> DHCPv6, > >>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that looks a lot like > >>>> DHCPv6? > >>>> > >>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one property > that > >>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see how we can bui= ld > >>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some form of > >>>> transactional > >>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resource > allocation. > >>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/RA. > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM > >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L ; > >>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list ; 6man WG < > >> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello all, > >>>>> > >>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing > >>>> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionali= ty > >> and > >>>> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this > draft > >>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not > >> usable. > >>>>> > >>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the > router > >>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's > very > >>>> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included > in > >> RS > >>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When th= is > >>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as= a > >>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. > >>>>> > >>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the existing > protocol > >>>> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself = is > >>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there > >>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the > >>>> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? > Am > >> I > >>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols = to > >> each > >>>> other? > >>>>> > >>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected > members > >>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draf= t > >>>> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It sho= ws > >> the > >>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people > keep > >>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same. > >>>>> > >>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, > please > >>>> suggest another change for that. > >>>>> > >>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing > >>>> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG > >> chairs to > >>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yours, > >>>>> Naveen. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> in line.. > >>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brian, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>] > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM > >>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan >>>> otroan@employees.org>> > >>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list >; 6man WG < > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>>>>>>> HI Ole, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ole, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < > >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org >>>> otroan@employees.org>] > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli >>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG >>>> ; > >>>> v6ops list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > >>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. > But > >>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to > >>>>>>> support > >>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the brid= ge > >>>> refers to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix > delegation. > >>>> Is that what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol f= or > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in > >>>> addition to that. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree wi= th > >> it? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple > >>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a > >> waste > >>>> of time and resources. > >>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t= have a > >>>> satisfactory solution... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to > >>>> Prefix Delegation > >>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. > (I > >>>> add this > >>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other > >>>> non-protocol > >>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, > but > >>>> there > >>>>>>> are some subtleties: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop > people > >>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply > >> appear > >>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF > >> protocols > >>>>>>> are concerned. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on > our > >>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we > >>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "10. Prefix Delegation Services > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered > >> according > >>>>>> to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by > >> DHCPv6 > >>>>>> [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging h= as > >>>>>> also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary > IPAMs, > >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and > >>>>>> [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments > >> based > >>>>>> on these recent discussions? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such > as > >>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as th= e > >>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-manageme= nt > >>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different > >> discussiion. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 > >>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missin= g > >>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix > >>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an > >>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any so= rt > >>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: > >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different > >> than > >>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv= 6 > >>>> protocol proposals? > >>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCP= v6 > >>>> option in RS/RA messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely > true. > >>>> By including both the IPv6 > >>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there > are > >>>> fewer messages > >>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not sa= ve a round > >>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a > >> cross-dependence > >>>> between the two > >>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the > RS/RA > >>>> exchange and check the > >>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you > saying > >>>> that that is no longer > >>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a > >>>> protocol between routers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two inste= ad > >> of > >>>> four. That matters > >>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. > >>>>>>>>> Use header compression then. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is > moreso > >>>> how > >>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending > >>>> everything in > >>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiri= ng > >>>> multiple > >>>>>>>> channel accesses. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" > you > >>>> get > >>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to > undergo > >>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that comm= on > >>>> data > >>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA > >>>> protocols > >>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, ju= st > >>>> options in ND instead of DHCP. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not > >>>> different than DHCPv6. > >>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. = ND > >> is > >>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rou= ter > >>>>>>>>> delegation. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one= ). > >> In > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is > >> indication > >>>> that > >>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extens= ions=E2=80=9D of > an > >>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a > >>>>>>> lot > >>>>>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> v6ops mailing list > >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > --000000000000babd3a057b361f87 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

I= really don't want to do the feeding stuff and will continue the work a= s it is progressing now.=C2=A0 It's useful for us to continue work as w= e have been doing since last 2 months.=C2=A0 I will add appropriate citatio= ns as you want.

I really= want to focus myself on improving the document technically and solve at le= ast some of the core issues very soon. Everyone's help is much apprecia= ted.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 23:37 Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

The reason why the advice of a similar thing to DHCP= v6 DUID not taken was, there is a fundamental difference between your draft= and mine.

=C2=A0

>> About the node identifier, a= n stateful service requires a node idenfitier for keeping

>> track of what node resources= have been delegated to. Your draft needs some form of=

>> node identifier that would b= e similar to DHCPv6 DUID, but all that exists for RS/RA that<= /span>

>> I am aware of is SLLAO.

=C2=A0

Your draft proposes an unified approach of using DHC= Pv6 inside RS/RA, whereas my draft says things can be done without DHCPv6 a= nd any other new options or flags too.

=C2=A0

>> My draft proposes four alter= natives, of which DHCPv6 inside RS/RA is only one of the

>> alternatives. One of the alt= ernatives (including PIOs in RS messages) is the same as

>> is described in your draft, = except that your draft deprecates the need for an =E2=80=98X=E2=80=99 bit.<= u>

>> What we should have done (an= d what could still be done) is to list the =E2=80=9CPIO in RS with

>> no X bit=E2=80=9D method as = a fifth alternative in my draft, and then your draft could focus<= /u>

>> on the details of the new pr= otocol it requires.

=C2=A0

As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-v6op= s-pdhost' was cited in respective places of my draft.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0don&= #39;t know how more to acknowledge your inputs in my draft.=C2=A0 If you fe= el that you are not acknowledged well, please let me know what citation changes I can do in=C2=A0my draft to make you happy.

=C2=A0

>> I don=E2=80=99t see any cita= tions of =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99. What I do see=

>> is section 4 use cases that = are covered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99

>> or if not adequately covered= there then should be offered as input to

>> my draft and then cited from= your draft.

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:= naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:30 AM
To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>= ;
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t;; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org= >; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Fred,

=C2=A0

Being a new entrant in the forum with my draft, I wi= ll always be grateful and acknowledge all the contributions.=C2=A0 In fact = when I shared the draft with your for review before submission, I sent to o= ther senior members of the forum.=C2=A0 For that matter @Ole, @Brian and whoever contributes their names will be menti= oned in upcoming version of my draft.

=C2=A0

The reason why the advice of a similar thing to DHCP= v6 DUID not taken was, there is a fundamental difference between your draft= and mine.=C2=A0 Your draft proposes an unified approach of using DHCPv6 in= side RS/RA, whereas my draft says things can be done without DHCPv6 and any other new options or flags too.<= u>

=C2=A0

As you suggested me to cite, 'draft-templin-v6op= s-pdhost' was cited in respective places of my draft.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0don&= #39;t know how more to acknowledge your inputs in my draft.=C2=A0 If you fe= el that you are not acknowledged well, please let me know what citation changes I can do in=C2=A0my draft to make you happy.

=C2=A0

Finally, I would like to use this forum to improvise= the draft more technically.=C2=A0 You can directly message me.

=C2=A0

Yours,
Naveen.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 20:18, Templin (US), Fred L &= lt;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

Also the idea of including a PIO in a= n RS message was originally mine as documented

in my draft. Others may claim that th= ey brought up the idea first, in which case I

would be happy to honor their drafts.= Your contribution was to not include any

special bits in the RS PIO, which I a= gree is a good contribution. But, in hindsight,

the idea should have been offered as = a contribution to my draft even if the new

protocol were to be documented in a s= eparate draft.

=C2=A0

Also, I told you that you need to say= something about node identifiers that

parallels the DHCPv6 DUID for client = and server IDs. You did not take my

advice, and so that is a missing aspe= ct of your proposal. The only candidate

I am aware of for RS/RA is the SLLAO = option, but that only gives link-layer

address, and not any of the other typ= e of identifiers offered by DHCPv6.

=C2=A0

Finally, your use case is already cov= ered by =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99,<= /p>

which shows that DHCPv6 is applicable= for the needs. If you think there

is something different about your use= case, that would be useful input

for =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdho= st=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 but not material for a new draft.

In any case, your document needs to c= ite =E2=80=98draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost=E2=80=99.

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:= naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:12 PM
To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>= ;
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t;; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org= >; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Fred,

=C2=A0

Am aware that there are many open source softwares a= vailable. But the use cases that I mentioned in my draft holds good with wh= at I mentioned below.

=C2=A0

I agree you suggested to include Nonce in RS / RA. T= hat's why your contribution is recognized and your name is mentioned in= the draft under *contributors*. But the whole idea of doing something with just RS / RA with out the need of new option flags or= message types was from me which we discussed in call. If you want we can t= ake this discussion we can take offline.

=C2=A0

Thanks & Regards,

Naveen

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 00:22 Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com wrote:

Hi Naveen,

=C2=A0

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itse= lf.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t understand that; ther= e are a number of very good publicly-available DHCPv6<= /p>

implementations that support prefix d= elegation today. And, to instrument RS/RA to

perform prefix delegation under a new= protocol would require a non-trivial amount

of new code. So, why not just use DHC= Pv6?

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

PS Please also do not forget that the= idea of using the Nonce as a transaction ID

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 vessel= came from me.

=C2=A0

From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:= naveen.sarma@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:09 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t;
Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>= ;; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<= /a>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac= -prefix-management-00.txt

=C2=A0

Hello Brian,

=C2=A0

Comments inline.


Yours,
Naveen.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 01:04, Brian E Carpenter <= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2018-11-19 06:53, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
> Hello Brian,
>
> Please find comments inline.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Naveen
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 01:16 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-18 06:40, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>> Whether it's a prefix delegation or allocation, it's a= resource
>> allocation
>>> from both the host / CPE or a router perspective. Do you see t= hat missing
>>> transaction ID in RS/RA as a mandatory requirement for SLAAC t= o function
>>> even with proposed protocol?
>>
>> Yes. Without a transaction ID, a nonce, or some equivalent mecahni= sm
>> there is no way to correlate the request and response unambiguousl= y.
>> In particular your proposal doesn't distinguish between an uns= olicited
>> unicast RA announcing a prefix and a solicited unicast RA assignin= g a
>> prefix, which are totally different actions.
>>
>
> Naveen] Am not yet clear on why we should distinguish between unsolici= ted
> and solicited RA.=C2=A0 Do we need to distinguish like that?=C2=A0 As = per my current
> knowledge any prefix will be allocated or assigned only when RS is rec= eived
> from node and didn't come across an use case of a router assigning= the
> prefix unsolicited.=C2=A0

Today, no prefixes are assigned on receipt of RS, so I don't understand=
your argument. Prefixes are assigned either by configuration or
by DHCPv6-ND.

Naveen] I would see this as partially true.=C2=A0 As= one of the forum member mentioned, RA does more than advertising the prefi= x.=C2=A0 Even in our gateway too prefixes are assigned to subscribers when a RS is received from devices directly tunneled over GRE.=C2=A0 Consi= der the case of described in RFC8273, where the prefixes are assigned to de= vices upon receipt of RS.=C2=A0 So, it needn't always be a configuratio= n or DHCPv6 for the prefix allocation or assignment.


> So, since both node and router will have context of
> prefix assigned, we can reserve constant numbers like 0 or 0xFFFFFFFF = for
> nonces included in unsolicited RA. I can add a text saying the use of = this
> in next version of draft.

But there is no field in an RA for a nonce.

Naveen] That is what my draft is proposing.=C2=A0=


>>
>> Handing out resources with a single message exchange is bad practi= ce
>> anyway; if the response is lost, the resource is lost for ever. Yo= u really
>> need some kind of two-phase commit.
>
>
> Naveen] Do we really need this? There are equal amount of chances of l= osing
> a RA or DHCPv6 Avertise / Reply.=C2=A0 A two way commit will induce mo= re delay
> in the resource allocation procedure and it might not be required as t= he
> retry mechanism is in place.=C2=A0

A retry mechanism is not safe. It might lead to the same prefix being
allocated twice due to lost messages or a race condition. I suggest
that you read up on two-phase commit, which requires a minimum of
four messages.

Naveen] Agree that a two-phase commit is considerabl= y safe.=C2=A0 This can be a subject of future study.


> I would rather say that the resource is never
> lost.=C2=A0 That is because, from router perspective the resource is a= llocated
> even if the message doesn't reach the solicited node.=C2=A0 A devi= ce will anyway
> retry and a router will always sends a response with the same allocate= d
> prefix.

But it never knows if the response was received, which is a requirement
for safe resource allocation.

>
> The standard RA doesn't have this
>> problem because it's an *announcement* not an *assignment*, an= d it is
>> repeated at a reasonable frequency, so a lost message doesn't = matter.
>>
>
> Naveen] I don't see a difference between the two in my draft. So, = didn't
> want to distinguish between the two i.e. standard and the one proposed= in
> this draft.=C2=A0 What kind of difference do you see?

As described above. An existing RA says "I route this prefix". Your RA says "You can use this prefix." That is an utterly differ= ent
statement.

Naveen] As mentioned in above example, not all route= rs might not be eligible to say that "You can use this prefix" (f= or example, whoever didn't go for a < /64 prefix allocation).=C2=A0 There must not be a big change in existing behavior.=C2=A0 Can you please = help me understand your comment?


>> (A device ID, as also used in DHCPv6, doesn't seem to be essen= tial
>> in the same way, but would be needed if an authorisation or
>> logging mechanism is needed, i.e. to answer "Is it OK to give= a /56
>> prefix to this box?" or "Which box got that prefix?"= ; you need an
>> identifier for the box.)
>>
> Naveen] This is mentioned in my draft about whether the routers
> configuration allows /56 prefix allocation or not. If not, a router ca= n log
> using the mac address of the device.=C2=A0 We too do the same thing in= our
> router.

/56 is only an example of course. Any length prefix could be requested.
Yes, if you trust the MAC address you could use that as an ID. But
if you use DHCPv6 that problem is already solved.

Naveen] As I mentioned earlier in my mail, DHCPv6 is= not a usable solution in my case and across all platforms (might be for ot= hers too).=C2=A0 That is reason we see so many drafts were invented by honorable members of the group to bridge the gap in SLAAC itse= lf.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
>>
>>>
>>> Also am not sure if am wrong in quoting that *delegation* is t= he term
>>> coined to mimic SLAAC behavior of prefix allocation from a sub= pool.
>>
>> "Delegation", "allocation" or "assignment= " are all fundamentally the
>> same, and are all different from the simple announcement function = of a
>> normal RA. Your proposal changes an announcement protocol into a >> management protocol. That's the thing that Ole is asking you t= o justify.
>> Why do that?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Please correct me if am wrong.
>>>
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Naveen
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 01:07 Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-16 06:43, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>> Naveen,
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea of including a DHCPv6 message option in IPv6 = ND RS/RA messages
>>>> requires
>>>>> a *new option* to go along with an already existing pr= otocol (namely,
>>>> DHCPv6).
>>>>> The idea your draft builds on uses an existing IPv6 ND= option but
>>>> requires a
>>>>> *new protocol* that is not fully specified in your dra= ft yet. My
>> feeling
>>>> is that once
>>>>> the new protocol is fully fleshed out it would look ve= ry much like
>>>> DHCPv6, and
>>>>> some people have said that they do not want new protoc= ols.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually beyond the point of caring whether the p= rotocol should be
>>>> DHCPv6,
>>>>> but do we also need a new non-DHCPv6 protocol that loo= ks a lot like
>>>> DHCPv6?
>>>>
>>>> I realised when looking at this draft that DHCPv6 has one = property that
>>>> RS/RA completely lacks: a transaction ID. I don't see = how we can build
>>>> any kind of resource allocation mechanism without some for= m of
>>>> transactional
>>>> integrity. Prefix delegation is of course a form of resour= ce allocation.
>>>> So that is a fundamental difference between DHCPv6 and RS/= RA.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Naveen Kottapalli [mailto:naveen.sarma@gmail= .com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:18 AM
>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@g= mail.com>
>>>>> Cc: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boe= ing.com>;
>>>> otroan@employees.org; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org&= gt;; 6man WG <
>> ipv6@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with ot= her existing
>>>> protocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t = the functionality
>> and
>>>> the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the case= s where this draft
>>>> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself= is not
>> usable.
>>>>>
>>>>> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting somethin= g from the router
>>>> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, = IMHO it's very
>>>> unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a = PIO is included in
>> RS
>>>> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router= .=C2=A0 When this
>>>> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by sa= ying it as a
>>>> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >>>>>
>>>>> If a device soliciting required information using the = existing protocol
>>>> standards without new message types or option types or fla= gs itself is
>>>> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, are= n't there
>>>> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be s= ent to the
>>>> devices?=C2=A0 For that matter what about the complete SLA= AC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am
>> I
>>>> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant = protocols to
>> each
>>>> other?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many = respected members
>>>> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my cu= rrent draft
>>>> suggested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become= standards.=C2=A0 It shows
>> the
>>>> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sur= e people keep
>>>> inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside = the draft, please
>>>> suggest another change for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on= providing
>>>> extensions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the = forum and WG
>> chairs to
>>>> evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>> Naveen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> in line..
>>>>> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Tem= plin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ole Troan &l= t;otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>>
>>>>>>> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@= ietf.org>>; 6man WG <
>>>> ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification = for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrot= e:
>>>>>>>> HI Ole,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@emplo= yees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36= AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <= Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.s= arma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notif= ication for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin = (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otro= an@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 20= 18 9:38 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <<= a href=3D"mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer">Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <= naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Versi= on Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, = Templin (US), Fred L <
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred= .L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ole,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-= ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailt= o:otroan@employees.org<mailto:
>>>> otroan@employees.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November= 12, 2018 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred= L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:
>>>> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli = <naveen.sarma@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> naveen.sarma@gmail.com>>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.o= rg<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> ;
>>>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>= >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] N= ew Version Notification for
>>>> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree to= some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But
>>>> am sure it would consume more resources at router to
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a whole alo= ng with SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegat= ion is quite different from SLAAC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless thi= s is water under the bridge. Since 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I can understan= d this comment, the water under the bridge
>>>> refers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv= 6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation.
>>>> Is that what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you were meaning t= o say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that= DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>>>>>> and there shall be no alte= rnate IPv6 ND-based protocol in
>>>> addition to that. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind a statement like that= , but would the community agree with
>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In general we as a community t= ry to avoid providing multiple
>>>> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fai= l.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is = the one and only solution?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am saying that solving a problem tha= t is already solved is a
>> waste
>>>> of time and resources.
>>>>>>>>> Now if you install could solve a probl= em where we don=E2=80=99t have a
>>>> satisfactory solution...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one= and only solution to
>>>> Prefix Delegation
>>>>>>>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegatio= n protocol is needed*. (I
>>>> add this
>>>>>>>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v= 6ops-pdhost' lists other
>>>> non-protocol
>>>>>>>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix= delegation.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the = current IETF solution, but
>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some subtleties:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can= 't actually stop people
>>>>>>> using some other method of prefix delegation, = which would simply
>> appear
>>>>>>> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mec= hanism as far as the IETF
>> protocols
>>>>>>> are concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my m= essage based on our
>>>>>> knowledge of other non-router methods (including a= nima) which we
>>>>>> captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. = >From that document:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation servic= es must be considered
>> according
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An examp= le service is that offered by
>> DHCPv6
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative servi= ce based on IPv6 ND messaging has
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6ma= n-pio-exclusive-bit].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exi= st, such as proprietary IPAMs,
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] an= d
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management= -yang]."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this still ring true, or do we need to make s= ome adjustments
>> based
>>>>>> on these recent discussions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I sai= d, proposals such as
>>>>> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DH= CPv6-PD as the
>>>>> boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-pr= efix-management
>>>>> intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a diff= erent
>> discussiion.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) We did think about this question a bit whil= e developing
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
>>>>>>> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue= waiting for missing
>>>>>>> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to sh= ow how a prefix
>>>>>>> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD= at the edges of an
>>>>>>> autonomic network. I think you'd find some= thing similar in any sort
>>>>>>> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value proposition = of something new, has to be different
>> than
>>>> =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By "different wrappin= g", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6
>>>> protocol proposals?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say= that the idea of including a DHCPv6
>>>> option in RS/RA messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> is "just a different = wrapping", then that is not entirely true.
>>>> By including both the IPv6
>>>>>>>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in= a single message exchange, there are
>>>> fewer messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> and fewer round trips. Tha= t in itself is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that = as interesting. You will not save a round
>>>> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each= other.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This gets us back to the M&O b= its where there is a
>> cross-dependence
>>>> between the two
>>>>>>>>>> protocols. Historically, you are s= upposed to wait until the RS/RA
>>>> exchange and check the
>>>>>>>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv= 6 (two round trips). Are you saying
>>>> that that is no longer
>>>>>>>>>> the case? Have we declared that th= e M&O bits are deprecated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency= on the M&O bits. PD is a
>>>> protocol between routers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits= - I am fine with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is also important that there ar= e fewer messages - two instead
>> of
>>>> four. That matters
>>>>>>>>>> a great deal on low end links.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see the maths behind t= hat.
>>>>>>>>> Use header compression then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't only a question of how many b= ytes - the question is moreso
>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many channel accesses are necessary. On so= me links, sending
>>>> everything in
>>>>>>>> a single channel access is less prone to c= ollisions than requiring
>>>> multiple
>>>>>>>> channel accesses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about CB radio - after you say "= ;breaker, breaker one-nine" you
>>>> get
>>>>>>>> to say as much as you want (within reason)= without having to undergo
>>>>>>>> channel contention multiple times. (That i= s not to say that common
>>>> data
>>>>>>>> links function the same as CB radio, but t= hey do have their CSMA
>>>> protocols
>>>>>>>> for making sure they don't step on som= eone else's transmission.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exac= tly same protocol semantics, just
>>>> options in ND instead of DHCP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exact= ly DHCPv6 - they are not
>>>> different than DHCPv6.
>>>>>>>>>> That is the whole point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getti= ng why that is valuable. ND
>> is
>>>> also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable f= or per-router
>>>>>>>>> delegation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent = as unicast (one-to-one).
>> In
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in t= he RS message is
>> indication
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are still strugglin= g with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an
>>>> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be= a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to talk ab= out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org&= gt;
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/v6ops
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000babd3a057b361f87-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 18:01:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3902130DEC; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmToh9_zQ0oB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 993A0130DD4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.3.73] (unknown [186.137.76.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 54CDD8771A; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 03:01:06 +0100 (CET) To: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin (US), Fred L" , Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <4f4748fd-4697-19b9-49a5-a569b6f25670@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fgont@si6networks.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBE5so2gBEACzBQBLUy8nzgAzSZn6ViXT6TmZBFNYNqTpPRvTVtUqF6+tkI+IEd9N2E8p pXUXCd0W4dkxz6o7pagnK63m4QSueggvp881RVVHOF8oTSHOdnGxLfLeLNJFKE1FOutU3vod GK/wG/Fwzkv9MebdXpMlLV8nnJuAt66XGl/lU1JrNfrKO4SoYQi4TsB/waUQcygh7OR/PEO0 EttiU8kZUbZNv58WH+PAj/rdZCrgUSiGXiWUQQKShqKnJxLuAcTcg5YRwL8se/V6ciW0QR9i /sr52gSmLLbW5N3hAoO+nv1V/9SjJAUvzXu43k8sua/XlCXkqU7uLj41CRR72JeUZ4DQsYfP LfNPC98ZGTVxbWbFtLXxpzzDDT8i3uo7w1LJ2Ij/d5ezcARqw01HGljWWxnidUrjbTpxkJ9X EllcsH94mer728j/HKzC9OcTuz6WUBP3Crgl6Q47gY5ZIiF0lsmd9/wxbaq5NiJ+lGuBRZrD v0dQx9KmyI0/pH2AF8cW897/6ypvcyD/1/11CJcN+uAGIrklwJlVpRSbKbFtGC6In592lhu7 wnK8cgyP5cTU+vva9+g6P1wehi4bylXdlKc6mMphbtSA+T3WBNP557+mh3L62l4pGaEGidcZ DLYT2Ud18eAJmxU3HnM8P3iZZgeoK7oqgb53/eg96vkONXNIOwARAQABzSVGZXJuYW5kbyBH b250IDxmZ29udEBzaTZuZXR3b3Jrcy5jb20+wsGBBBMBAgArAhsjBQkSzAMABgsJCAcDAgYV CAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCTmylpQIZAQAKCRCuJQ1VHU50kv7wD/9fuNtTfxSLk3B3Hs3p ixTy8YXVjdkVwWlnJjFd7BOWmg7sI+LDhpjGfT6+ddOiwkumnvUZpObodj4ysH0i8c7P4C5t F9yu7WjklSlrB5Rth2CGChg5bKt541z2WHkFFxys9qBLmCSYDeKQkzLqhCjIUJizY2kOJ2GI MnSFDzJjhSFEh//oW830Y8fel1xnf/NVF+lBVtRMtMOfoWUqDjvP3sJ1G4zgkDCnF0CfncLx +hq2Mv26Uq9OTzvLH9aSQQ/f067BOkKAJKsfHdborX4E96ISTz57/4xECRSMr5dVsKVm4Y// uVIsb+L5z+a32FaiBZIAKDgnJO7Z8j6CV5e5yfuBTtX52Yi9HjYYqnYJGSDxYd6igD4bWu+7 xmJPHjkdqZgGV6dQIgiUfqkU+s5Cv350vK48CMaT/ZLo2BdsMhWsmaHmb+waePUMyq6E4E9x 9Js+EJb9ZiCfxS9exgieZQpet1L36IvhiwByvkQM009ywfa30JeMOltUtfLi5V06WQWsTzPL 5C+4cpkguSuAJVDTctjCA0moIeVDOpJ8WH9voQ4IeWapQnX35OIoj1jGJqqYdx65gc1ygbyx b8vw+pJ9E5GLse5TQnYifOWpXzX9053dtbwp/2OVhU4KLlzfCPCEsoTyfu9nIZxdI2PMwiL5 M85BfjX4NmwBLmPGoM7BTQRObKNoARAAqqXCkr250BchRDmi+05F5UQFgylUh10XTAJxBeaQ UNtdxZiZRm6jgomSrqeYtricM9t9K0qb4X2ZXmAMW8o8AYW3RrQHTjcBwMnAKzUIEXXWaLfG cid/ygmvWzIHgMDQKP+MUq1AGQrnvt/MRLvZLyczAV1RTXS58qNaxtaSpc3K/yrDozh/a4pu WcUsVvIkzyx43sqcwamDSBb6U8JFoZizuLXiARLLASgyHrrCedNIZdWSx0z0iHEpZIelA2ih AGLiSMtmtikVEyrJICgO81DkKNCbBbPg+7fi23V6M24+3syHk3IdQibTtBMxinIPyLFF0byJ aGm0fmjefhnmVJyCIl/FDkCHprVhTme57G2/WdoGnUvnT7mcwDRb8XY5nNRkOJsqqLPemKjz kx8mXdQbunXtX9bKyVgd1gIl+LLsxbdzRCch773UBVoortPdK3kMyLtZ4uMeDX3comjx+6VL bztUdJ1Zc9/njwVG8fgmQ+0Kj5+bzQfUY+MmX0HTXIx3B4R1I1a8QoOwi1N+iZNdewV5Zfq+ 29NlQLnVPjCRCKbaz9k6RJ2oIti55YUI6zSsL3lmlOXsRbXN5bRswFczkNSCJxJMlDiyAUIC WOay7ymzvgzPa+BY/mYn94vRaurDQ4/ljOfj6oqgfjts+dJev4Jj89vp8MQI3KJpZPEAEQEA AcLBZQQYAQIADwUCTmyjaAIbDAUJEswDAAAKCRCuJQ1VHU50km4xEACho45PZrUjY4Zl2opR DFNo5a6roTOPpgwO9PcBb3I5F8yX2Dnew+9OhgWXbBhAFq4DCx+9Gjs43Bn60qbZTDbLGJ/m 8N4PwEiq0e5MKceYcbetEdEUWhm5L6psU9ZZ82GR3UGxPXYe+oifEoJjOXQ39avf9S8p3yKP Diil0E79rn7LbJjMcgMLyjFg9SDoJ6pHLtniJoDhEAaSSgeV7Y745+gyMIdtQmrFHfqrFdjq D6G0HE+Z68ywc5KN67YxhvhBmSycs1ZSKAXv1zLDlXdmjHDHkU3xMcB+RkuiTba8yRFYwb/n j62CC4NhFTuIKOc4ta3dJsyXTGh/hO9UjWUnmAGfd0fnzTBZF8Qlnw/8ftx5lt4/O+eqY1EN RITScnPzXE/wMOlTtdkddQ+QN6xt6jyR2XtAIi7aAFHypIqA3lLI9hF9x+lj4UQ2yA9LqpoX 6URpPOd13JhAyDe47cwsP1u9Y+OBvQTVLSvw7Liu2b4KjqL4lx++VdBi7dXsjJ6kjIRjI6Lb WVpxe8LumMCuVDepTafBZ49gr7Fgc4F9ZSCo6ChgQNLn6WDzIkqFX+42KuHz90AHWhuW+KZR 1aJylERWeTcMCGUSBptd48KniWmD6kPKpzwoMkJtEXTuO2lVuborxzwuqOTNuYg9lWDl7zKt wPI9brGzquUHy4qRrA== Message-ID: <57506b51-0d01-8761-419f-988bfcbeabb1@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:00:49 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4f4748fd-4697-19b9-49a5-a569b6f25670@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:01:20 -0000 On 21/11/18 18:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Just to raise a gripe: > >> What I am using is the standard linux "ip" command, as in: >> >> # ip route add >> # ip route del >> etc. > > And wouldn't life be better if the IETF didn't have an aversion > to defining APIs, so that you could do that in an O/S independent > way? IN fact, we do specify APIs.. although sometimes way to late, are when is has become way too evident (and/or when it has become way too late) that we need to. e.g.... we do have all these IPv6 addresses of different sorts but... try to use them in any meaningful way and it should become clear that protocol features without an appropriate API is likely to lead to protocol *failures*. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Nov 21 18:36:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B6D130E93; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8SfjUYsMXOW; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B707C126CC7; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id n18so5438066lfh.6; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:36:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yrG/C3EqA98j9Lcuq9fMj/QamBRSUdVv41bLM97hQ9w=; b=l9dadrlEHu4BiR5kyTiq4w44Un3FNv6adV+i6tON6yXLo82AGHyt4jZI7C0C+7UI+S 7XcV59cBm1Lu0ZNKtQt/UtYuLxLiiNxKufVmlY/F7Z4WoND/wjgxB1ccgBDxbCfachrr zApt790Kh8r4RFeKBGnpnhoGp3hlB+qjxrKSBCUZwBo3sXjAtUVVLTtK/+EviUprVwZy VPGJ29mRaGPaNRFtbGdhIGpdtRO2SDgEAwySf+lsyp5KhMrQG/qWxvsfmcQyV2J7yr0C S+r3v9uWQSZkFweHFPTFJl4rXdu+cRwgt1L82eR/NYswfLIsEnPyVWJFyM5g4ujHE86o Bpqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yrG/C3EqA98j9Lcuq9fMj/QamBRSUdVv41bLM97hQ9w=; b=Q/O0/DJWARC/lC+fmJMtgZA9X+ppupc27odOGwLU5OeTzkvWnsR5+A5QfYLUTDrPPV ezC0G/ca3E+3ixbCdM92sA/OzJiN+Ve6xnjGVcCiZk1NYdvCkht/ApoKLDHonb1M3/Cm vI382lcTNgdpN3dkSmZv3LG66eRObLAAYeVfzPt4U0eCrY5/N7He1XJnK+DHxmzW+nyw u084te53GXgx9s80MZNXEZwlqW9mGmLIFEAlXiNx2px//ZhR7Ru0ZxNN0luID2FQhiFJ 7/XbbyxXw9NUfuQKE5mUWxpLaHaAVlzlhyoxiq8+rBSh3luZUE8JISpNa+eRoMjiBwdO 5K1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKXZlNN2JO62d5e45muROWbXetymGg1TAUksEkF2Alp71Np7asw pOQQdsmBBJPte1LSuWPJ0CdoNp9KOfZ7hUIi8xg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5efjz6fGFMkhVc+QY/TobYd31+1tVKtwZXItUup24V3O1nmv+4bJVC+OkOq2KPhnIdbX2bfUjiYQQTjbUAEqNg= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d857:: with SMTP id p84mr5131557lfg.44.1542854203850; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:36:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> <68b85f05-b76c-df73-5f91-2de4853779ac@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68b85f05-b76c-df73-5f91-2de4853779ac@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:06:36 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2c65c057b37bc9e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:36:48 -0000 --000000000000c2c65c057b37bc9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, Is there a case where a CPE would require a prefix > 64 bit? Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 01:22 Brian E Carpenter On 2018-11-22 03:56, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > I think any prefix delegation service needs to allow for any legitimate > prefix > > length of /64 or shorter. > > Or longer. Routing prefixes in IPv6 can be any length up to /128. > Without regard to the whole "Why /64?" debate, we must ensure that > all prefix mechanisms are agnostic on the actual prefix length. > > Brian > --000000000000c2c65c057b37bc9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

=
Is there a case where a CPE would require a prefix = > 64 bit?

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen

On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 01:22 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com wrote:
=
On 2018-11-22 03:56, Templin (US), Fre= d L wrote:
> I think any prefix delegation service needs to allow for any legitimat= e prefix
> length of /64 or shorter.

Or longer. Routing prefixes in IPv6 can be any length up to /128.
Without regard to the whole "Why /64?" debate, we must ensure tha= t
all prefix mechanisms are agnostic on the actual prefix length.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
--000000000000c2c65c057b37bc9e-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 19:10:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EEC8130F40; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:10:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FmnWWI735LtE; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x242.google.com (mail-lj1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70A4D128D09; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x242.google.com with SMTP id 83-v6so6617497ljf.10; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:10:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zQvy0+aMWG5WxQuvJKeEQKxcH2hWSeTtxsO3lU9CEOk=; b=f8qMxwZsaFsi9bCEQRzpz6wCW4IikF7Aj7E6P5PuG4AOPvCrhFI+bKLp0tuNv3DEAS uq80kKstWV6QFTDvaB/FGP+ZRuHdPpmEfMrHEFbE0cZoXAPrtcmY6iTzJgZlEQeJh/AX ic8N9eyEWm9A9C/nJNtXevrhyjq6uN64tyiu46A2DIxZr1xUvhbFvdgPIpCroFnm7KaN ijwQDfHrJUYNLTg8SxpRjjN2LQ5MZDukMj0+CxzaZZk3cWfA5XGnwzc97TQCYker6TTf 4/0dAv+wkI2LD94SiAo2IBcc6iiwXMrCxPop2MPgnFyM2plVcfUw4i6YGZuJsEhalYWW 9C0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zQvy0+aMWG5WxQuvJKeEQKxcH2hWSeTtxsO3lU9CEOk=; b=fxWNFpvDLaiNPm00N2w6Qk+5Ndhu50xEFQE2OFvkhc+0GerVc+eYIUS20eaypTI5T/ cMVNtobl3iQnma35+9lNr+7oQdbtByYH7WfnRThMST4cQqZf9WwdhV+2XUhz2+cTMJ5s Ocms2mvwzR0w/ICnO02cNjyAVOWawk2GgRjhNHz+jOP6mW1AsxJbWXYFetmUeWAJ26SL j1n9upfqPRBpkUNN0RGEXVpbhrsU5gSx3tVVa5/FCW52mOGLq2H8O85Gzb/oa1SreNMH N//WTJfrzIVEPHSvAnHVltUGs4Urf3n/B6vnoPi8nJ2pnnyCbYz5hFipMWfTqUDkqSaB q0Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZhDKDez3XftWeLtZcD0Qw5n35Ryu2AgqkrAl6ssMbkAEvXDZ5Q AYgPS+Zdo7QOgOz2a//p5TzVvoom+C6YBOx07/8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WewxFHPjWuz3e7ABWUOzj06oOQCT8uthwJXM3sbThbguuEEM/buIBCYQGrdV/QW5uNhHrd5qqSk9QaLMvxEa4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:914b:: with SMTP id q11-v6mr5479796ljg.164.1542856200511; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:10:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:39:52 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Mikael Abrahamsson , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c56308057b3833c2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 03:10:05 -0000 --000000000000c56308057b3833c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In our gateway too DHCPv6 is a separate entity for assigning IA_NAs to devices, which is connected to the routing entity with a private or unstandardized API. Is there a scope for standardizing such API? On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 01:28 Brian E Carpenter On 2018-11-22 07:40, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Mikael, > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L > >> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; 6man WG ; > >> v6ops list > >> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for > draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt > >> > >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >> > >>> That particular example does not relate specifically to the DHCPv6-ND > >>> proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions between SLAAC > >>> and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should prevail. > >> > >> I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this problem solved, not > >> glossed over. > >> > >>> The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior of DHCPv6 > >>> relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Section 14. > >> > >> Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't say how to do that. > >> > >> "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router through > >> a relay agent, the delegating router may need a protocol or other > >> out-of-band communication to add routing information for delegated > >> prefixes into the provider edge router." > >> > >> It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess that you might > need > >> to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you do this? > >> I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message just > >> fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for the end > >> user. > > > > In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are on > > one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what the > > spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole can say > > more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay > > agent are on different platforms. > > Since DHCPv6 is a separate entity from any routing protocol, this > is a case where inside a single box they could be linked by a privately > defined API but in different boxes they would need a protocol, which > could of course be either proprietary or standardised. What's new > here? > > Brian > --000000000000c56308057b3833c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In our gateway too DHCPv6 is a separate entity for assign= ing IA_NAs to devices, which is connected to the routing entity with a priv= ate or unstandardized API.=C2=A0 Is there a scope for standardizing such AP= I?

On Thu, 22 Nov 2018= , 01:28 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com wrote:
On 2018-11-22 07:40, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> Hi Mikael,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:23 AM
>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com&= gt;
>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; Bria= n E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; 6man WG <= ;ipv6= @ietf.org>;
>> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-sla= ac-prefix-management-00.txt
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>
>>> That particular example does not relate specifically to the DH= CPv6-ND
>>> proposal; the proposal is not out to solve interactions betwee= n SLAAC
>>> and DHCPv6, but in this particular example common sense should= prevail.
>>
>> I know, and that's why I don't like it. I want this proble= m solved, not
>> glossed over.
>>
>>> The LDRA is a DHCPv6 relay agent like any other. The behavior = of DHCPv6
>>> relay agents wrt prefix delegation is covered in RFC3633, Sect= ion 14.
>>
>> Errr, it's "covered" in the fact that it doesn't= say how to do that.
>>
>> "If a delegating router communicates with a requesting router= through
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a relay agent, the delegating router may need a= protocol or other
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out-of-band communication to add routing inform= ation for delegated
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes into the provider edge router." >>
>> It doesn't say "inspect the relayed message and guess tha= t you might need
>> to install a route and keep state for that route". How do you= do this?
>> I have seen several relay implementations that relayed the message= just
>> fine but didn't install any route, leaving the PD useless for = the end
>> user.
>
> In a case that I care about, the delegating router and relay agent are= on
> one and the same platform. So, the delegating router does just what th= e
> spec says, and the relay agent's needs are satisfied. Maybe Ole ca= n say
> more about what is expected when the delegating router and relay
> agent are on different platforms.

Since DHCPv6 is a separate entity from any routing protocol, this
is a case where inside a single box they could be linked by a privately
defined API but in different boxes they would need a protocol, which
could of course be either proprietary or standardised. What's new
here?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
--000000000000c56308057b3833c2-- From nobody Wed Nov 21 20:37:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181F412D4ED; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dR8tpVaNwgs2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63BE712008A; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id e5so8558500plb.5; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hdcV4l2hU87WVvoP/FijnCka1sqjFa0zhXEYJMR2XuY=; b=hmzT0Lr8ZM2ty3YdgNO77VyhvhKbnR+ENyA4ixJoVq8nlId8Njp4S0XI/GCD+kpi11 0VASKcIYE+Wy6j/LGzyXK90wX4ofAtqzqDNEnn4eaCkKvqcqKuAKjKde7brXiapBb5RC lCJcwHs25EH3mHjTGKMkkmNC4PaForO0bQOTUh3kpnZzjEhLn6slHohUXGPd599bRT/g yuzZEqbdLKC78obS0URfnspyR+76Lpwuf37yCGFumPcYNZehzSRhejGMO59toWCHEBA8 P/B3cDZ4bKL16w1jFbzAQ6LS2ARM5tl/mtnRb3KALlKX6/s1dZcxosyFvF9XOAqhVulP SqIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hdcV4l2hU87WVvoP/FijnCka1sqjFa0zhXEYJMR2XuY=; b=Y7uM3tePcIoJvzWuj0gVBzcBSovbcyuTvGcAJnF5E1FgjnbEmZ90yTG2xhgwV5+UIw WfPkIU5A45+415Inieo4kV2Gq/8C/QzU2ghnA0Uuldz01Ntdvx9jwrnfCIFjygnrls6F QcVGzN52I+4Ior4ZGAe4yrskVfmanl66Nec5ZEpH+jD5QUVP6q+1Ge94Zt8ZywZneNjZ RwLwVKDFI9CKGwuFMLjqwvbfCEJCa3fVRREpaNHJ6JHMj6D6orOusRDKXCKkQVXsj5rk H+nQMivEK9Xbv1omoQKJ8AypLKORdc4mdFydhzwK7khyTqAkhMPMucfziUcVnHwpUP8/ dysA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZKYei9eA0RSwCCcXguA/p9eim+Y0ITJ7I3Xc8gEipLQ7wzCUjS iIGr8CP1VQIhIsQDMosalKqA9neK X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XabgbnAii+HfWcMqEriEWjo/eMDZLTr8XkeWdn/iOJkbg/rqFKXYUQU2PJ6soeZqzh8E6vtQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d01:: with SMTP id 1mr9867145plu.127.1542861428600; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p83sm71761335pfi.85.2018.11.21.20.37.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:37:07 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Ole Troan , v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> <68b85f05-b76c-df73-5f91-2de4853779ac@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1c499204-908f-3575-a15d-03b84495b51b@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 17:37:03 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 04:37:11 -0000 Naveen, On 2018-11-22 15:36, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Hello, > > Is there a case where a CPE would require a prefix > 64 bit? That isn't our business when designing a general prefix delegation mechanism. The architecture is clear; please see RFC7608 (BCP198) for background. As long as the prefix length for SLAAC is defined as /64, that is the longest we will see, but who knows what it will be 50 years from now? Brian > > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen > > On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 01:22 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 2018-11-22 03:56, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> I think any prefix delegation service needs to allow for any legitimate >> prefix >>> length of /64 or shorter. >> >> Or longer. Routing prefixes in IPv6 can be any length up to /128. >> Without regard to the whole "Why /64?" debate, we must ensure that >> all prefix mechanisms are agnostic on the actual prefix length. >> >> Brian >> > From nobody Wed Nov 21 21:18:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691A1130FE2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:18:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqiitSOBnNAt; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C8B0130F15; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9ECE9B0; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 06:18:28 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1542863908; bh=urDzYBuXoERvshKLvOG5bqwrabZsMg7vrCLfjwFjBKU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Wv9Mq3S4Jz/pV0VHTVpmx1u2o8oznC9qEGQjUnUd3iezea6xZzPwTA82XeRPbxVXX CkrphIsCqK6LGasFow25tdhCv12abojBeWodxh8yugjMrYBKeMD8EK4weCicisThJX eUsTYwrWZmyJvCRwhpjxHj2CFdSmnAfA7UtawnnI= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAC8AF; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 06:18:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 06:18:28 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 05:18:34 -0000 On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Bernie contributed the point about relay agents gleaning route > info from the DHCPv6 messages they forward. Actually, that is > also what my LDRA code does, even though everything is all > together in the same box. I know this is what they do, but there is no document defining how to do it. I have lots of operational scars from this not working, and when the largest vendors with their "best in class" operating system implementers can't get it right, who can? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Thu Nov 22 02:39:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF478130DD5 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:39:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T2HBs0a6qMyM for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01olkn0808.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe02::808]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA452128B14 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 02:39:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=WlRbegktMLcJ+aniU6EYkNJsJDoqKVmCe9kpLb7UkBE=; b=rIRhfinfrs8dGCDgqdRwmM6ns6FhLvptMaNCI6nzn0cB1QO2qcFkBHPQoZWRWJBQPmfVJP7BNuBA6Ar+6ofis8ZkCUfUNQIit2XzLX9YpwEUbdC4mzQ8byhYlKBLWcehs9xWi2D5KS9Aj7ieTrhDwb7hmFCo1iloUz9vbW2Uh5XH7gk699C8Cb5ixt962lM8DBwRL7A87D2B7FpWam7DmgOYa/CTWUNqoK069xxBnh9Q1z3nsgmlYhhzbPtfQA2Sv6HyJDnrUU5k6SP0JdUZD/N52CQiNV7X9L2FVw/LocqsgFRPbnHKaTZURYspslkEyxZ2qUZZp5ncKstZGaSfFA== Received: from HE1EUR01FT046.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.52) by HE1EUR01HT213.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.203) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:39:08 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.52) by HE1EUR01FT046.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.250) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:39:08 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.016; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:39:08 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Paul Marks CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAA05WuYAAGKwgAAAwZEAAGV9gAAAAOvnAAAAlnOgAABPLYAAADeNQAAB/hmAAAGW1BAAA/qegAAWf2K4 Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:39:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:0DE643230D4AE7F5BD8C6A0F72C33E8949BED9B9FC6D98F580BC2A204C19BD6B; UpperCasedChecksum:D31BD61A1E294028BF4EDADE7AA3AFC2E7C2C02CABAC13C6055C863743FDC668; SizeAsReceived:9062; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [/BPt1MppqR2rnn5Gps2KnHUOxsJQjSBS] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT213; 6:3VEs5hdWRQ1V/flhgu9bXqPJ2FubCKe3Dy25qWwt93cTtmrFXJLrJEBiG1APkAOA7zro0NEKHILmxXosfRIInGx9JTUVSkwdwr8Tnaxd+QzfU7ZPFop1sf8UN9uOlUi3xSUHH/dRItPdJzLewg2Vy29npjymh9ZYP9CGiiRrJs+cLvpgi476kj5dieiiX6d9Emx3zqimf/rKS6OC+yNWWscn9GD2ATOKFyIcHSngcPnyEWVavL1JSZzvnzapNGw7uPn4ZDgWpMKq7TBGsnwGv2VMnPP64VdjtOYuKWIiPCwzdsWtEys4Y65qt1adrCRDn88lrzsymWoK+54gEcWMPcfm9akp91wktQZXCkx+EB3FbkPrujQy52PK1lXrwwDi1ehIRCUR+/c03mKBzNArPu6hHKpD+MZAelJxdb2YpxAddvJb9/dSGko1oHU2fqjd3S8fKQUgkdxTtD/aAiiYsA==; 5:VXCAEtv48DYDOsmP2C2X7/HdGqbqVh1XdMQKlxr2YedDglTM72MY+0KroKA7UIKmW29i/3QD2Uyjfenl3STUQLuCLXUYfJjMvw/saM2y+xCQnSVPyr3ytUzaQU/4oL7SfxFkvznTkeYLgZhnwSwlaJW9kwwnBpUzIQUaO0KRG+o=; 7:8C4dyxO+/cMlk7Bi12yL/SFCy6FVhTVg5eIiFt9poE8+BgXWXbuEAazyTLoTRa7sx+I+rGz5IVqwMqrZZXX05E5qyDb9K17W38v6PDkauWoC/5TeGA56ZbhFAViEp+XNiCl4C6uNwzR+7TB1BbJ9bw== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT213; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT213: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT213; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT213; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: yWQqsjd0AH/KyhsJ2LnEKns/hxBm2Z5CLO/opEzhS/MYdGGCx7EBSTYgcV9NV511 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29379BB86234684B9D6BB40FAEDB0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bb5f6059-2ee7-4c18-2807-08d65066bba7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Nov 2018 10:39:08.3434 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT213 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:39:14 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29379BB86234684B9D6BB40FAEDB0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable. When you encounter su= ch a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something else. And... is it real to find unsolvable problem! ________________________________ From: Paul Marks Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 1:54:57 AM To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: You're likely to find that electrical engineers have already solved the pro= blem you're working on, decades ago. For example: - 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels. - 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modulation). > - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Ethernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ mod= ulation). First, the discussion was about compressing 32-bits into 5-bits that would = help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 encapsulation, the solution was an e= ncoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is somethi= ng newer than your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits represented in = 100 different voltage values (still moree to do). Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonly used with cable modems) can= represent 8 bits per symbol: - An IPv4 address needs 4 symbols - An IPv6 address needs 16 symbols But this example doesn't help, because QAM symbols are not bits; see below. > A protocol like IPv6 doesn't care how bits are transmitted through a phys= ical medium, as long as those bits can be reconstructed at the receiving en= d. A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion should be around the clear detai= ls of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is describing with no confusion for the = reader. Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using a single voltage (= out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be no closer to implem= enting an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP addresses are not m= ade of voltages. They are made of bits, and the number of bits is fixed by= their definition. A bit is a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1. Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5 bits= , etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess board w= ith 49 squares. You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't be a tria= ngle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess= board. Likewise, you could compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) things, = but those things would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 add= ress. In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable. When you encounter suc= h a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something else. --_000_HE1PR0402MB29379BB86234684B9D6BB40FAEDB0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable. When you encounter= such a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something else.<= br>
And... is it real to find unsolvable problem!
From: Paul Marks <pmarks= @google.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 1:54:57 AM
To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outl= ook.com> wrote:

You're likely to find that electrical engineers have= already solved the problem you're working on, decades ago.

 

For example:

- 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels.=

- 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modul= ation).

=D8&= nbsp; - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Et= hernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ modulation).

 

First, the discussion was about compressin= g 32-bits into 5-bits that would help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 enc= apsulation, the solution was an encoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is something new= er than your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits represented in 100 di= fferent voltage values (still moree to do).

 


Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonly used with cable modems= ) can represent 8 bits per symbol:
- An IPv4 address needs 4 symbols
- An IPv6 address needs 16 symbols

But this example doesn't help, because QAM symbols are not bits= ; see below.

> A protocol like IPv6 doesn't c= are how bits are transmitted through a physical medium, as long as those bi= ts can be reconstructed at the receiving end.

 

A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion= should be around the clear details of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is desc= ribing with no confusion for the reader.


Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using a single volt= age (out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be no closer to i= mplementing an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP addresses are = not made of voltages.  They are made of bits, and the number of bits is fixed by their definition.

A bit is a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1.

Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5= bits, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess bo= ard with 49 squares.  You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't= be a triangle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess board.

Likewise, you could compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) = things, but those things would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 a= ddress.

In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable.  When you enc= ounter such a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something = else.
--_000_HE1PR0402MB29379BB86234684B9D6BB40FAEDB0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Fri Nov 23 07:07:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF8D130E09 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:07:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6c12WvCHlmtS for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A70A130DCE for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wANF7l56130971 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:07:47 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 659C7205D8B for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:07:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9AF205D68 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:07:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id wANF7kvW008347 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:07:46 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7cfcb7b21b1f498e880d00d11b0adfad@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <79f505f6-94e6-4570-0e77-d21e0d7c77e1@gmail.com> <995ff903-1df6-225a-8aaa-813db45d1dd2@gmail.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <57b98143-1db3-9fcb-6d2b-4a0937ec00c9@gmail.com> <68b85f05-b76c-df73-5f91-2de4853779ac@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:07:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:07:51 -0000 Le 22/11/2018 à 03:36, Naveen Kottapalli a écrit : > Hello, > > Is there a case where a CPE would require a prefix > 64 bit? CErtainly yes. In order to understand when, one should understand why 64 is 64. It is 64 because at some point in time people speculated that IEEE MAC addresses will become all 64bit in length. It did not happen. Now people believe they'll all be 128 bit, but that wont happen either, or otherwise SLAAC will break. Given than, one may speculate that with more time we'll come back at making SLAAC with 48bit Interface IDs, which in turn will lead to prefixes of 80bit long. E.g. when Windows 15 will come out the CPE will need a 80bit RA from operator in order to SLAAC the in-house PCs. As an additional hint, one can look at 802.15.4 16bit MAC addresses. Currently the IPv6/15.4 RFC makes 64bit out of these 16bit by filling in 0s. Maybe one day one may think it's a waste to fill in with 0s while one could rather make 112bit prefixes to CPE for HVAC or tap water IP-enabled sensors. So, to safeguard against these evolutions better have a spec that allows > 64 bit to CPE too (in addition to < 64), i.e. 0..128. Alex > > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen > > On Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 01:22 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > On 2018-11-22 03:56, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > I think any prefix delegation service needs to allow for any > legitimate prefix > > length of /64 or shorter. > > Or longer. Routing prefixes in IPv6 can be any length up to /128. > Without regard to the whole "Why /64?" debate, we must ensure that > all prefix mechanisms are agnostic on the actual prefix length. > >    Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Nov 23 07:50:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7302130E30 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:50:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dN6ZoR-9pwBX for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092068078.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.68.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF8D7130DFF for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:50:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VAjTrh9dKvf5WbbplcYEAyLm5JhWy3/hNbgwbLgpV5w=; b=rk889jq1oUi68fIoBJ93B644Iaq9iLjnamdOf+qYgB5GftjSrPsk7vos6EnOcR//lc6cE02LGyfD961W2tjYzR+xpL1IsC4htOhCRoyiKkznbXNBRfVoTYKatxsCTzDvS8U5nHSYuxI+sMvPutkcp4jpHFbnLrPWF0KSTD0zmnTCAm8prx7E7fDD9jjr0q7vrxraOptv33DcAg7yRmUTWWNaCOE0AwFTUjHm3Qq8T18sVXKiRk1Je1yLuqw6m/POkDtfip0acCTw7aLJz8dVO042DL2L0cCJv4LfFsTKi1F1wwc/lPOwvs4INvc+Glh7cht562jap8oqPgZzLPt+fg== Received: from AM5EUR02FT065.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.51) by AM5EUR02HT171.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:50:31 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.60) by AM5EUR02FT065.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:50:31 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.016; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:50:31 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Paul Marks CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAA05WuYAAGKwgAAAwZEAAGV9gAAAAOvnAAAAlnOgAABPLYAAADeNQAAB/hmAAAGW1BAAA/qegABTqfLX Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:50:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:33AE25465B706AE4BB01719E7B225E8A7C37156950D7B9BFFDC93EB83E5CBCAC; UpperCasedChecksum:D883D40B44A310F674766E8794C9151F3FB7982B4706C164A38F8D6ABC3B88DB; SizeAsReceived:9063; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [YENn08Dx6AezC8B9KH3wUl+ZfEoWmIbt] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT171; 6:1w1pf3oDTl/bSHVfHlJ6BnL/1fwcpyYqwO2ZPDoZ4/UBGp5DsPpXzB+n0wNf4iZEh+PLVz5DYvzE4Pdh0NoXzhF721uWF9MQ3YjnTiuXejvX/PUUtvuWGI+LoQydyIUMsp3CNn9bp4vOuwxcPvkvqAtHfSc6lyYYsQwaNm/Uan+zNh3yDLwQZj7KEwSNX8BLSTyEaD6HRlsvnKOCVHH9x+GIkq/46TXE6qy7Ag4r0oka9mH77PcHmHsgLF4CCmO5fjs47gqoJb3PwrMPpZsMznK2DGrEUd9h7JL5TjDSCRBkIqb5VrcJRi5EYXw8edgrNztTvpA6+YWtcM9Pa++D0aAHr8LIu1wTfJlRi3p2qlsouNcLwDlGQGXbTLtKAbLzYHvh5z5mPNt2gA7XKj0X1BPGvCVp1o+yyH3AGYtdgu9Or5y9CgEclqEYC/Er4gg5adaucTiKCL4eC9RmEnPalA==; 5:Tb6VtDu5LOuZ24f1lUIkU8uoCJ77ewPMpGhwPdq1B7f7qDD1hIhuFjeEWa8IE3hZYVlqTlbU49P6Y9+ZsnazvpOUm+E/LOatWIGeQMv5VmKp5a5DhWX+OJ1cNeSHsnFHK5LcrN/rVCA8KWgzcEeTDlsxyQbIPC9lsZ0uw/v6o1E=; 7:68XgSigHtehU1CL84kPG8aXvwLYOXFDya5Vca8n9pglsf4HxJhd+GOaV7q/Vt01Rpm1Urr+fCN30QFQykduLDHLr247trEsyJDELn/ieYY737B2VVOrPFxy4ZP8oIj4on+QYNMPNgfoNR0W6OTkWFg== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT171; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT171: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT171; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT171; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: vA52Is+Am/6dj0WmmJIiDym7A0ar250en0GMk4qwfeYEDbA/qmoh6KTD8G24GCKf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB293777CB1C32E3E4FE97FD6EAED40HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c475e69c-f79e-40ad-40bf-08d6515b65ef X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Nov 2018 15:50:31.2149 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT171 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:50:37 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293777CB1C32E3E4FE97FD6EAED40HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5 bi= ts, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess board= with 49 squares. You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't be a tri= angle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a ches= s board. You can make a new figure from triangles and call it a pyramid, it still co= nsists of triangles, same as representing a 1 with multiple values, these v= alues can be voltages, etc. The idea is if you can add something new, then add it, of course it will no= t be totally new thing but it will consists of other known things, this is = called development, why there is a fear of adding something new, if you dis= covered something that will add a value, mark it and do it, it is your righ= t. ________________________________ From: Paul Marks Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 1:54:57 AM To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: You're likely to find that electrical engineers have already solved the pro= blem you're working on, decades ago. For example: - 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels. - 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modulation). > - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Ethernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ mod= ulation). First, the discussion was about compressing 32-bits into 5-bits that would = help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 encapsulation, the solution was an e= ncoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is somethi= ng newer than your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits represented in = 100 different voltage values (still moree to do). Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonly used with cable modems) can= represent 8 bits per symbol: - An IPv4 address needs 4 symbols - An IPv6 address needs 16 symbols But this example doesn't help, because QAM symbols are not bits; see below. > A protocol like IPv6 doesn't care how bits are transmitted through a phys= ical medium, as long as those bits can be reconstructed at the receiving en= d. A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion should be around the clear detai= ls of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is describing with no confusion for the = reader. Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using a single voltage (= out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be no closer to implem= enting an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP addresses are not m= ade of voltages. They are made of bits, and the number of bits is fixed by= their definition. A bit is a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1. Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5 bits= , etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess board w= ith 49 squares. You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't be a tria= ngle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess= board. Likewise, you could compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) things, = but those things would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 add= ress. In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable. When you encounter suc= h a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something else. --_000_HE1PR0402MB293777CB1C32E3E4FE97FD6EAED40HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5= bits, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess bo= ard with 49 squares. You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't be a = triangle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess board.

You can make a new figure from triangles and call it a pyramid, it still co= nsists of triangles, same as representing a 1 with multiple values, these v= alues can be voltages, etc.

The idea is if you can add something new, then add it, of course it will no= t be totally new thing but it will consists of other known things, this is = called development, why there is a fear of adding something new, if you dis= covered something that will add a value, mark it and do it, it is your right.
From: Paul Marks <pmarks= @google.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 1:54:57 AM
To: eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:39 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outl= ook.com> wrote:

You're likely to find that electrical engineers have= already solved the problem you're working on, decades ago.

 

For example:

- 100 Mbps Ethernet uses 2 voltage levels.=

- 1 Gbps Ethernet uses 5 voltage levels (PAM-5 modul= ation).

=D8&= nbsp; - 2.5 / 5 / 10 Gbps Et= hernet use 16 voltage levels (PAM-16 / 128-DSQ modulation).

 

First, the discussion was about compressin= g 32-bits into 5-bits that would help in compressing IPv6 address in L3 enc= apsulation, the solution was an encoder that works only with L1, and it is 32-bit to 5-bits which is something new= er than your suggested encoders, the output is 5 bits represented in 100 di= fferent voltage values (still moree to do).

 


Okay, here's another example: 256-QAM (commonly used with cable modems= ) can represent 8 bits per symbol:
- An IPv4 address needs 4 symbols
- An IPv6 address needs 16 symbols

But this example doesn't help, because QAM symbols are not bits= ; see below.

> A protocol like IPv6 doesn't c= are how bits are transmitted through a physical medium, as long as those bi= ts can be reconstructed at the receiving end.

 

A good advantage, and the IPmix discussion= should be around the clear details of v6-to-v4/v4-to-v6 as the I-D is desc= ribing with no confusion for the reader.


Even if you could represent an entire IPv6 address using a single volt= age (out of 340 undecillion possible voltages), you would be no closer to i= mplementing an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition mechanism, because IP addresses are = not made of voltages.  They are made of bits, and the number of bits is fixed by their definition.

A bit is a mathematical idea; it can only have two states: 0 or 1.

Fitting more than two states into a bit (or more than 32 states into 5= bits, etc.) is logically impossible, like a 5-sided triangle or a chess bo= ard with 49 squares.  You could make a 5-sided figure, but it wouldn't= be a triangle, and you could make a 49-square game board, but it wouldn't be a chess board.

Likewise, you could compress an IPv6 address into 32 (or 20, or 5) = things, but those things would not be bits, and the result would not be an IPv4 a= ddress.

In mathematics, some problems are truly unsolvable.  When you enc= ounter such a problem, the correct solution is to give up and do something = else.
--_000_HE1PR0402MB293777CB1C32E3E4FE97FD6EAED40HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Fri Nov 23 07:52:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2F0130E30 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:52:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4j8ZHKaIT5fq for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C412130DFF for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB8241C36 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:52:35 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D07C418E5; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:52:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 6E04B1519D; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:52:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:52:35 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Khaled Omar Cc: Paul Marks , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181123155235.GI72840@Space.Net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:52:40 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 03:50:31PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > The idea is if you can add something new, then add it, of course it will not be totally new thing but it will consists of other known things, this is called development, why there is a fear of adding something new, if you discovered something that will add a value, mark it and do it, it is your right. The IETF is a very strong believer in "running code". Please provide code that shows that your ideas are feasible. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Nov 23 07:56:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF55B130E30 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WnIJ41JVFuYj for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur02olkn0815.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe06::815]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E784130DFF for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 07:56:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=vnPs0cK1lPaEXk/g8uLiAYGz7senzdf7JovVz1En/SQ=; b=OAzgp8Dt+UXdedNXVxcQHJgxxmHQSiBa+TG0Aecss9oGlhh+e9wPmLVSpHk+LHOA78Ez/cIlhtPNtGuHqWhVW7fukSR2Nd5QDgCuKVAiHffq2PfEQqWPzGWlBQJUWuJPucMKIq4jO37N9KaEEFIPMJ9uRcLITVAubGzQ0807M5DgJBZcubm2vsqjyZ2QKHEdYz4RRDDPSK1huCa5lVyIVdsw3RBRgYyqfgwKrbEjDRH8VmX63KcTAUjAPp8lgs4TE24YKucL5FlGrqP/Cmwzmuak31kDOzKh9mFJpFPZBQ915KT3Fx/PKIm6Kmz6IN1E9bdp4WIi13ctacoaMEtE1Q== Received: from VE1EUR02FT031.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.52) by VE1EUR02HT167.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.13.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:56:06 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.12.59) by VE1EUR02FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:56:06 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0e4:22d3:c55f:7b2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1361.016; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:56:06 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Gert Doering CC: Paul Marks , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QBKw74AAA05WuYAAGKwgAAAwZEAAGV9gAAAAOvnAAAAlnOgAABPLYAAADeNQAAB/hmAAAGW1BAAA/qegABTqfLXAAASkYAAAB92pw== Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:56:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <20181123155235.GI72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181123155235.GI72840@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:08D70541AA0BFD959785453025AC3B2104586D7D4575D95D1847A20248015D2D; UpperCasedChecksum:1C8F612E88F5F189AA7E2D03BCA79079A47E572A1A4F70F6EAFBFDCFE1DEA8E3; SizeAsReceived:8026; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [PbNXkjVXWgjU6rwg0SM0b5iwgo3AL1Cu] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT167; 6:zGnhiJBItSlkp/72yhsGlMgCix9z4Hei7ePDYVqmd3PmXxFuzFABbZO/xfiDtvtNhD15FeHFdIPImW77CYnJd3NvmzioEBhG9IwzM3JKsxUt1mTfP6r2pY+VNW+Yy9K8Q9U/DRgnc8EoRHolgIeluOfJ1swEtD/Fzj7uVxkZC39pL3kC23IUBOfh271sV+W1FROrbj8FTh4hohoIZRxf1Uuyt2dNlRZHdE7ILZ9BgKpWZ0OptJ1XMfCIyK+k5YXT7MoDg6BKwJfAuvkCB3AREijINLkKoCzHq+Ox/OXwq2xrIFa/e7yDPheK0fpvbnaNYLHd+Y/fhf4g017eUZEw6UO5TaN5+ULfjJGUMNhPnazjGlYKJ+Ru6U9qU1Ah0Uwb6JvlEEGYQBjKezku4JUOfEYn62skk1yfZIvg3qeBtDgKNPjo1hUScTEY7sVmG6GDmpCsPt7C5PcJLv7yEM/uEA==; 5:TwHiAipMmgdVWLmTQaaupaQu2sZGvHtqrF/mJZo5Sa3Fb3tGdQvu+WzAdAddFoWi6V/kJLK23pLMe6XZuhcB/c1DPifb2soyXVxQqtunW2yPIAJwgGv8S43Aw8KnRjocxhTU0zPD+927rs37e/Db1cq3VKJ2FqVhddmqAqvOypQ=; 7:DcD5pjeAZ7C9tzIsDEprH7kRc4ETL8MxR4gUw/mgJgZwcrN1HZ6XGAZhltJb5RIRs9/CFEdzQpb5sJrZBjAl7pnSsi8bP072uZ+Y97K0j098E5iZ2eM1daPYyIRl/95wIUyfU7be1EYfLz92aAC4qw== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT167; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR02HT167: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT167; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT167; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: VapgGy+c5Y9CO3o1w9yZnMPZ0PYpjD8jgn12UNzA7aXzYl8zpG8YY963IyWpA4rQ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB293784709516680DFAEF2C39AED40HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5f5f8310-6bb9-4d7c-d698-08d6515c2dc0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Nov 2018 15:56:06.5176 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT167 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:56:11 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293784709516680DFAEF2C39AED40HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Out of my hands. ________________________________ From: Gert Doering Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 5:52:35 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Paul Marks; v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Hi, On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 03:50:31PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > The idea is if you can add something new, then add it, of course it will = not be totally new thing but it will consists of other known things, this i= s called development, why there is a fear of adding something new, if you d= iscovered something that will add a value, mark it and do it, it is your ri= ght. The IETF is a very strong believer in "running code". Please provide code that shows that your ideas are feasible. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293784709516680DFAEF2C39AED40HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Out of my hands.
From: Gert Doering <ge= rt@space.net>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 5:52:35 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Paul Marks; v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Hi,

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 03:50:31PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote:
> The idea is if you can add something new, then add it, of course it wi= ll not be totally new thing but it will consists of other known things, thi= s is called development, why there is a fear of adding something new, if yo= u discovered something that will add a value, mark it and do it, it is your right.

The IETF is a very strong believer in "running code".

Please provide code that shows that your ideas are feasible.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG          &nbs= p;           Vorstand: Se= bastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsich= tsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen          = ;       HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444        = ; USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293784709516680DFAEF2C39AED40HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 24 08:09:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D23130E35; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:09:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NtmTVRC5Q8cT; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56CDB130E09; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id wAOG9o6V057056; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 09:09:51 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.213]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id wAOG9mmh057031 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Nov 2018 09:09:48 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (137.136.238.222) by XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (137.136.238.213) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:09:47 -0800 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 08:09:47 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli , 6man WG , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUemuywmmsBQddKEW1fr9sznfAQqVMbZjAgAFwigCAAAgHoIAAmmKA//+EguCAAIuKgP//emnAgACWtgD//4eZIABeBgcLAACJLRAA/OXD0wABCqwgADFvgoAABxla8AAFLlgAABC539D//4EDgIAAdN9w//+kf4CAAITXwP//f82AgACErGD//5X9AAANmKEgAAXy4wD//K5T4A== Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 16:09:46 +0000 Message-ID: <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50c10934-6ca8-00d0-73bd-cc6cf19ed213@gmail.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 23355554A4096CB189A4C7580F2865D624BCE9C63D09230665365C5A546855DF2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 16:09:54 -0000 Hi Mikael, > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se] > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:18 PM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG ; > v6ops list > Subject: RE: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-pref= ix-management-00.txt >=20 > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >=20 > > Bernie contributed the point about relay agents gleaning route > > info from the DHCPv6 messages they forward. Actually, that is > > also what my LDRA code does, even though everything is all > > together in the same box. >=20 > I know this is what they do, but there is no document defining how to do > it. This subject came up on several different occasions on the dhc list. It prompted the writing of "Relay Agent Assignment Notification (RAAN)": https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-agentopt-delegate/ Each time the document was brought back up for discussion, there was initia= l interest followed by silence. Reason being is that people do not think it i= s a problem, and that relay agents should just continue to glean from IA_PDs as they have always done. Do you think we should bring back RAAN? Fred =20 > I have lots of operational scars from this not working, and when the > largest vendors with their "best in class" operating system implementers > can't get it right, who can? >=20 > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Sat Nov 24 22:15:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09EF129BBF; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:15:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fEUSnfFDfb97; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B054F123FFD; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id E290CB8; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 07:15:23 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1543126523; bh=JSmEKbYW7NRIxKOtNvkXc1QFZTyhbfttXXhsY2JkLUY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=FfFcx14XoNgwCFLPFmYq84t6W0hs9RwPyV6xxtUGVgR9BgQzJyGON9DwDekHJXTAF UN5FmGlttA0HTvbwKzuJ7leWhUaf9yK/W+/AlDCavT1Qg1kGf53pfw0sLT4G6rC6Bu t8WUV8A0Rfjd/RNTYSZ7wpaVDoNPeOtz8LL8XLO4= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD65AB6; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 07:15:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 07:15:23 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Templin (US), Fred L" cc: 6man WG , v6ops list In-Reply-To: <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 06:15:30 -0000 On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Do you think we should bring back RAAN? Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with the DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimers (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Sat Nov 24 23:45:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D53129C6B; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 23:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbT_hbpLrMo7; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 23:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x341.google.com (mail-ot1-x341.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::341]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C383126BED; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 23:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x341.google.com with SMTP id k98so13903421otk.3; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 23:45:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sALyC4YfGYVSJU1uHABw508khMdYmAeqYxH7QUGglUA=; b=cNCIHRAa75+CLGT2XKI9zPFl0qVrY1KaEzKIoza1rRunbL3eCIzCinXaewL/6AhptB Mt4xds68+tObJW0B06iG0pepusY8zLV/ODWU3oTxC4c3mkwhCVeeKf+SdcvVZTqASzTy +DeuWCuAtztiiEOk1jBT2wh+KMermhHbvL3tfN/hjG1XM4FKzCRHvQKujGARksN58ynM bT2r6UJHamhZLz2EW/8EDQlMBYyGb47vlLO0raAR8YWuCfpdiVbkL8AJXcZ7hglwEc8+ r7wsTckSGGq5rytFzvvy8NZW82Gx1cZPiDHmfba5QUfEWJerRiKSBQtTm0BxQeqDXYVS qQlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sALyC4YfGYVSJU1uHABw508khMdYmAeqYxH7QUGglUA=; b=UzzKV+VmZ1dsak24Ixxh1T/CuZjMGVfuqCB/FR3zHpxV/C4JGhvZOB3AvNlPrvKbZ/ Xiyt5oB996hrAXO7nv2656ywd+EKroZkiOgSxp+Grd2JYDM3iqlavxvGx2PbTzz+c5+u JUBNTapSM1ahaqTUQK4mZ+8NpYHwzaWWFGXuqaHn1noQ7u4n6b6TdLEoFOSmGi3kEIm2 daeZtrD5eRG9Zw1Ce8PlpUOO0UvFss8aAXYvgVnMFQFofMVl4Mo5BNc+UgJmvkUfRzVa oRG9Xe9LczSVU8bwtwcU8CjxP/VoPEL9lS6GCAubBR6+KpEBBnjCFesi74JPMOZcyqnU njMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaU7TzeA7r01MQ/9vHXVquJA4kkke366c0K3XzGMJ63ff8AzZOy HC/rvuzNjmFR6SxXYW7X/eNXuDhZbPmi9sXvcqo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UL7ck+Ge1FOv0fVwVs9OKcpgwLwDl6G/HIITFwHtenhD2Anqzfej26pkKPUf4BWPzYhGnpYGNOHzCMAkSCUcA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:630f:: with SMTP id q15mr704492otk.187.1543131943759; Sat, 24 Nov 2018 23:45:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:45:17 +1100 Message-ID: To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 07:45:47 -0000 On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > Do you think we should bring back RAAN? > > Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with the > DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimers > (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me. > (I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been covered.) In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the prefix to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is why the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to announce it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or static, and if they're static (or at least stable across disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is being used to re-issue the same delegated prefix? The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment I worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods: - for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of the RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then uses for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing domain - for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a pool name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with that name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute, however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified in RFCRFC6911. An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be to have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the CPE advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address. "IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Addresses" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00 "5.7.3. Automatic eBGP Session Establishment" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#section-5.7.3 Regards, Mark. > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Nov 25 08:44:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D568512D4F0; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 08:44:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r2zSZbcDDXD5; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49634128B14; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id p6so11783824lfc.1; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZE59mRMbJZ0d60gQKt0BpoIW+Z88+nyEssg+QznhfT4=; b=q/vkm8Hy7TeiAdITPIeBNbFHyHVLr3SEskDI/QQP7ZYCdPdZk2dBQL6deH89goDhlu abTqEXGXONxBnYfOrX1Bn++Bwffew0JQIDCv+pjFPqXY2on43yHgfd/KCnFukq5qjlG2 qDz8csasOyyXlEClDj4wTI7m6mnJkkWh9qRBmeAMZyO716R9ZxjSGZawn/YFiQerQ5hH nkwOGN5z2kvG5ngchgJb1Vxe5c/o5cgbU6C3N/fNsSaWOm8ToTqmYXX0MK7HOh/KZs4y ubvS5SCvNmxLnrox1D7nEkhcFsK8LsIm1OKK2EdaY0latl0Go2F9k3wpbcrxFiDRZ1OV KMKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZE59mRMbJZ0d60gQKt0BpoIW+Z88+nyEssg+QznhfT4=; b=tYI9mmrNG84mSGh2JoFbSRxkPTnOGmTM0mPS/k+XB2QHrXYv+01w3I5CAUL/s0yq/7 qQT1VSEEFc4UYYdqriXOCoN4z52mRDmU38BL+oo0BGHDn/gkrb+uQjZVtn92jJwKfR8c V6Qmq+8x8PZmpENMWNQ/MGLdbcayw65y6Wjhg6uSBFJA5srfJGfJJr0yKwGu3kWvmSew v8FaRaeV2GeUGbwkiJ7OjHLVaxG+5aHdR2TfshVpsD1dstVmRa81KAWkuz5Xb2UkniPI ihKx6cgIFPo65BS0DyHIVIIT2LEKdwdHBCS1o72VfUdARQblVKAolg+jMaOqrpRnOlAZ oEow== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKJHxjESLn9yI9xvXLx02NO3sTr9t30/Ms7JFf2ImVo0F+eRCB/ EQMT04P10orVpyV11hDURbH5tyw/WfKf0Pe6O9E547AH X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eFQAGEaxdDMQ5tvygrLGOyH6Q+/HPHns5ATdrKQ11WNaF6B1AsTOvQNSfnEnz13eXIVjPdOnQtwYV7mtGG4/g= X-Received: by 2002:a19:db4a:: with SMTP id s71mr14253210lfg.36.1543164276330; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 08:44:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <430c94b29f3a49bd9fed24d8d78c6624@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7ba4a7429e374385856002e361e0324e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:14:22 +0530 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , 6man WG , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008557cf057b7feee5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 16:44:42 -0000 --0000000000008557cf057b7feee5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just adding my 2 cents. Even in our gateway we have both SLAAC and DHCPv6. For better routing of subscriber traffic, though these are two different protocols we had to assign a single prefix for each device. In case of SLAAC we let the device leverage the complete 128 bit address generation and in DHCPv6 case, our box generates the 128 bit address using the same prefix, map against DUID and sends back to the devices. In the last 5-6 years of production till now we have not seen any device requesting more than 1 IA_NA and even our gateway does not support more than 1 DHCPv6 address; whereas all the devices which got the SLAAC prefix used at most 16 addresses. Yours, Naveen. On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 13:16, Mark Smith wrote: > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > > > On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > > > Do you think we should bring back RAAN? > > > > Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with the > > DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimers > > (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me. > > > > (I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been covered.) > > In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the prefix > to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is why > the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to announce > it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or > static, and if they're static (or at least stable across > disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is being used > to re-issue the same delegated prefix? > > The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment I > worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods: > > - for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of the > RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then uses > for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing domain > > - for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a pool > name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with that > name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute, > however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified in > RFCRFC6911. > > > An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be to > have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the CPE > advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP > sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address. > > "IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Addresses" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00 > > "5.7.3. Automatic eBGP Session Establishment" > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#section-5.7.3 > > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > -- > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000008557cf057b7feee5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just adding my 2 cents.

Even in our gat= eway we have both SLAAC and DHCPv6.=C2=A0 For better routing of subscriber = traffic, though these are two different protocols we had to assign a single= prefix for each device.=C2=A0 In case of SLAAC we let the device leverage = the complete 128 bit address generation and in DHCPv6 case, our box generat= es the 128 bit address using the same prefix, map against DUID and sends ba= ck to the devices.=C2=A0 In the last 5-6 years of production till now we ha= ve not seen any device requesting more than 1 IA_NA and even our gateway do= es not support more than 1 DHCPv6 address; whereas all the devices which go= t the SLAAC prefix used at most 16 addresses.

Yours,
Naveen.


On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 13:16, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael = Abrahamsson <swmik= e@swm.pp.se> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>
> > Do you think we should bring back RAAN?
>
> Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with th= e
> DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimer= s
> (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me.
>

(I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been covered.)

In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the prefix
to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is why
the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to announce
it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or
static, and if they're static (or at least stable across
disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is being used to re-issue the same delegated prefix?

The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment I
worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods:

- for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of the
RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then uses
for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing domain

- for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a pool
name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with that
name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute,
however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified in
RFCRFC6911.


An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be to
have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the CPE
advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP
sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address.

"IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Addresses"<= br> https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00

"5.7.3.=C2=A0 Automatic eBGP Session Establishment"
https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#section-5.= 7.3


Regards,
Mark.


> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
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--0000000000008557cf057b7feee5-- From nobody Sun Nov 25 11:26:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3ADE124BE5; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9rxllpxREMor; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9FA21200B3; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id w73so5469937pfk.10; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=o+ogKz384afFenfvnopW7Pl9u31vSdm67YlWQZk2aDc=; b=Eau32czC6vT95QJ7ErKYdy4Z5/1m8RxRPH+ZaSC59awIzowq/c0iKT4ph/cN02ZpzR 0qAvPTBSd3DBAdY1LLHidgJZzLy47IQsifKjZDq+z+JCu9cjIUAJPeefopq+FO/h7K2r Ql/76jBw9y1pa36uDrctAA5nhtLkUM7sfhg0/Fy9fesyX7MgSah4p2QHSuHfgPDE7XxV LOD6igZazFHn92oKTvSezOq1PbmM9/yD5Y4ZclX98XthR06aPYeJcoBaR0GGk0j0xfs6 unj1GcU75b0+24QdWciOrj59rgMHnWLArFppaqNYGmJrmA0TMQZm4RXgS7reGbkud0kk 0lNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=o+ogKz384afFenfvnopW7Pl9u31vSdm67YlWQZk2aDc=; b=PlgR8rWegctIvyEnQRW202+Vqpj4X1LF8Hh9N0r0LTIKSzObsDev/SUrFYPJsxjAj1 7Y7KrZ5UDBpGdOo6nDZEeyiTviTslgnGIYFFCExW0kgr/U4Gexn3tXXqpQ11D+DW8RMu eRIFUQfdSI8JIUDgA7PUkcst2yjsUkcYi+idLj5RnrLkI83mROvpwi/n+2qvx+eO69zN b4RZ2K0q9GQcrO9eCAB/koimMN2PmJB6oBPIuViwuO39q2swY9FzoknkesUeq1YNM8a8 hll/JAE9vM7Rgp+b8K0sfiCdtcdRZVloJW+fq2Ubz80zhne1RePfMhLYRSBh0w4448ef vUow== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWavFmBtVBFkj+HhORKInOt7JHXIsNzXfJmPG3NsrpYw7k2IsCo7 BjGHAjbMV3B7Wltytu+B9R1FfKbT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UHb1PQsUIDnjs/AUwzSEB0NuMeFXj8AeKuBdnmHUKUaTrOXYDl+a1nXT0quf834JxjUvTg2A== X-Received: by 2002:a65:65c9:: with SMTP id y9mr7173608pgv.438.1543174002982; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.76.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p21-v6sm43183706pfk.186.2018.11.25.11.26.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:26:42 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli , Mark Smith Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <32e65875-6cbc-f180-4456-7a4b1a4cae50@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 08:26:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:26:46 -0000 On 2018-11-26 05:44, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Just adding my 2 cents. > > Even in our gateway we have both SLAAC and DHCPv6. For better routing of > subscriber traffic, though these are two different protocols we had to > assign a single prefix for each device. In case of SLAAC we let the device > leverage the complete 128 bit address generation and in DHCPv6 case, our > box generates the 128 bit address using the same prefix, map against DUID > and sends back to the devices. In the last 5-6 years of production till > now we have not seen any device requesting more than 1 IA_NA and even our > gateway does not support more than 1 DHCPv6 address; whereas all the > devices which got the SLAAC prefix used at most 16 addresses. How will all this work when the subscribers are homenets that need /56 or /48 prefixes? Brian > > Yours, > Naveen. > > > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 13:16, Mark Smith wrote: > >> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> >>>> Do you think we should bring back RAAN? >>> >>> Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with the >>> DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimers >>> (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me. >>> >> >> (I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been covered.) >> >> In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the prefix >> to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is why >> the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to announce >> it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or >> static, and if they're static (or at least stable across >> disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is being used >> to re-issue the same delegated prefix? >> >> The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment I >> worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods: >> >> - for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of the >> RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then uses >> for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing domain >> >> - for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a pool >> name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with that >> name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute, >> however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified in >> RFCRFC6911. >> >> >> An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be to >> have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the CPE >> advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP >> sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address. >> >> "IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Addresses" >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00 >> >> "5.7.3. Automatic eBGP Session Establishment" >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#section-5.7.3 >> >> >> Regards, >> Mark. >> >> >>> -- >>> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Sun Nov 25 21:59:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DA2130DC6 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JPcxOlduBxP for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com (mail-pf1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B7481271FF for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id 64so6019442pfr.9 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=lWzew6keWFMi+qlknoEe/jwzUeinFgEvMBjOmrGhdQU=; b=mFxnw45F7GxNZqvKPV3n0buZ6cX45U+drSw1DFEDwJ0L1PTFG4X0OLEVX6aZ6WWx4k Ofdn74Ev8xVJne5gVo46Yr3aPcmwhSmNBZ7bnGt2WlyRTr8/znH7laf/uB53JZQ/QTDE 1hRwFYIDXIaTmxVrxTmq1StMI0FkkQy91q3JKdI/8+JAOxRw8meJR4wYHoWqIWqd3XrO KUQPb2sAWjUAVtX64891KfAcHInHgSbYsjRCHC95wczS8xNIV0MwBhlMYQRe13yJ5b6I Xg6eo9rEC6mz0qxExZHkSN8TjD8x+ekHuO/MZmZInjQ3HCIKI/ok/EdRixKctLzvGhBE 71xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=lWzew6keWFMi+qlknoEe/jwzUeinFgEvMBjOmrGhdQU=; b=C/0AC0OQzmbi/05u6/KYJpXy0kVKyFjO+fsJzmI2LJAclGSGYkcAXRDCZD31N1sxRV zne2OD57XPY4Sw9ootKdyjfNMumd9PDsgWvRpYk8vneoPRmJ8hBs/Erb8TnqojKU/59S BNyKY5cu6i1mWjK0CPx/X//7LS4xLAsSYCnmZw6a8qiiemH8b30rzgouyALV0i2G7jZP 9XtEYS7/WoOplhIUEMrYXtKuu/TRd6SlXs7xpi+nKA5vp6zNIf+N4stdyze3OHAO4dIe WuXtjMaXZhNDFlrAhOvRxT/BTztm3/1Qub9mIUb8mw1GLXBXto2aFNkM1xzweAc1euOz nnPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZwjscvbA7rejZ6LmYtAmEMBfKYwRmnuY45gi9AwTDbNy1NdQMU e3lA5cPkWLTgfohqwYw0iWzs0k1f X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VJgnAHxK8A2n3vLxyiiXYKNRpLwWKdQe8tu3VK1JrSorp40MvzHYuJbwLS7XYgI42kC4cfXA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e711:: with SMTP id b17mr22789004pgi.363.1543211971613; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.20.1.99] ([12.179.95.6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s79sm6380427pgs.50.2018.11.25.21.59.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:30 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B0F35D3A-1EF4-4CE1-BE7F-0454B5984C7F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:59:29 -0800 To: v6ops list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Discuss draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 05:59:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B0F35D3A-1EF4-4CE1-BE7F-0454B5984C7F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is updated from draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs, which has = been previously discussed. The authors requested time at the recent IETF = meeting and were declined, but they would still like working group = feedback on their draft. --Apple-Mail=_B0F35D3A-1EF4-4CE1-BE7F-0454B5984C7F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlv7i8IACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CSJRAArCw9RnHpVNzwbALI8gHNcitgr7Ilp+2vJkiNqrZuvqvgY8MnFcJYiRD+ xKHHiTAvbdTSLX0ewtWu6Sblo+WDkW5fo+LqQOT+4fjUr1b5rbGuErTNeKVqUW7v O/do6aeDSHxh9uoIGJkY89ZO+O8Wqb7NzVRBclhyON5O64+2ZvO5rRK3IoqgEX6+ SoMXnODD3y/Vjqh2HES85BWD/zCChdelE22anwOIs2qVIlJcCHZXUVvWZxWnVAtE ZYlcrjLuKAoGt/YCwAW3aCx83LEHzftKvdzqsy6oC8u9CA/0tTnxat0gioqYvYzA RZQkexvHBBvfxA3ZKrxmtdNAkNh8V3VhpqTFrp5LbTzZjRMWsPp9S6Ra8qAhqAuT Zdrbn2zuv1s82AJFcF8lEGFji18GluF9PeMMS807O7GRzx6xiE4n4QRXAGbrAf6B wCAtaygZ+gK7NILdbnscOz9ze1SO0UT0tvzfQI31dqzbku0Z5mWRSQZSmL6DkIfK zvDwGkaqCj1SJh2x6Y9YU/YLc6tGAOgQKTkuGcxBn1hyaburDKX7L9h+9hduacBk 1IdwELPk3Hji3qoSnLePYg1jdIgsV5sQut1mQN40jSE78UYAClv3u/UBHTuBtnXd caRDxnKJafSD0VxfG+BFI06+3HxaE4wPGDZPmj7vv/aVHTsp5hU= =iqGS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B0F35D3A-1EF4-4CE1-BE7F-0454B5984C7F-- From nobody Sun Nov 25 23:40:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A16128CE4 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rH4wkvKTpA1d for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 893AC1271FF for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id l11so16528467qtp.0 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:40:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WAhE6S/8oXt35FPkaK2oeQogPMvsUztQwrTANeNIfxw=; b=XBINAwmKWC2H1EOwYaNIkCw9gCCREgoreGko348GYvPHVp84EQF2E/leD+9Lw5W81w 7CWwZDhCnlTbzE5o2WQmut0QhsatP6XrWt0Tq2dAPhaNZMYGxc59N4FuCo6ZAu+ixCRQ NxhUk/nApHW2HdeGkJWP9qIVdk1+jcnuTfurVK5Nkq42esejc8xgRDYbagL3+7EQ1P80 dDQY+hgOhBhFkkbQ5Ep36EIyd3DIU19Hyv7EnQqXae824VyrfdIFSQL8J1JbF60J+XqG MFVdoQc8PcKoCTfPimA0cC5zYuzK+v3KJhsDnp6SqyAGjH868EWhQ03JVtv4JdWJe9xo C0+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WAhE6S/8oXt35FPkaK2oeQogPMvsUztQwrTANeNIfxw=; b=pUa/lmL5o2tbre0avJeeIt0tdtI8LILDyZKG4QWUzHVIspCr0TK3nvCBP92Gc5uvut 17cFrOlElP+eM/fXQq7aekQeKLxEwd3KzSoaOaMPjdBLPNwsqjIypoWbGrUCL1i0XZGM cRr0U3R/SJEpn/RrDn8QhTFYv2ROppOLoPrrJIklP3ubtDcPwgQIKTxx7MsJrJPdn2PG qgHejU1YN/o1q6rN+YglM1a5VzP3J+qSOAYIKrvwACwEwM09d38lC0iZs+yNL1U33C8q NEETX+ISgMEIgC41yo36URCfWqIDMHe6ZyvudSlUOHcroKSB4T+QT8FjTJt6mebdYnfE Fajw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLVOfMsh32ucB7OjDeCe0uN+qInezDm65QTGEKzJb1jerF/+nFU dTecSZLkUBpRe+KC1nJ/alSOGB5q7QUIoMN031xCt6A5Kf0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fLGjVQHg3IvW92hFv7L0sKdWKTidP9CIRhQjk3Xcn6nYYNzkmq4oennbRuT3lN+FblgDkLNh3ad1pK1T4AFCI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:528b:: with SMTP id s11mr23561695qtn.199.1543218004788; Sun, 25 Nov 2018 23:40:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Davey Song Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 15:39:57 +0800 Message-ID: To: fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000fd15f5057b8c705e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Discuss draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 07:40:11 -0000 --000000000000fd15f5057b8c705e Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fd15f1057b8c705c" --000000000000fd15f1057b8c705c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Appriciated! I just submited 01 version by clearing some typoes from old txt. The attached file is the slides I prepared for last meetings. But I failed to preset it due to tight schedule. The thing I would like emphsize here is the result I did with a simple test on my android phone. It is found that that less than 1/3 DNS queries on android implement HEv2. And the average of AAAA and A query duration is 400ms. And the median is 200ms. That means 2/3 users will fallback to IPv6 enduring that kind of delay. The co-authors plan to firstly develop a data capture and analysis process which can help to study the status of current HEv2 in ISPs (similar to test I do on my phone). We need more data for a valid problems statement as the starting point. We also would like to invite more ISP operators to share their data to see if they have the same problem or not. Thanks for anyone who views this draft and give us suggestions. Davey On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 13:59, Fred Baker wrote: > This is updated from draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs, which has been > previously discussed. The authors requested time at the recent IETF meeting > and were declined, but they would still like working group feedback on > their draft. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000fd15f1057b8c705c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Appriciated!=C2=A0 I jus= t submited 01 version by clearing some typoes from old txt. The attached fi= le is the slides I prepared for last meetings. But I failed to preset it du= e to=C2=A0tight schedule.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The thing I would = like emphsize here is the result I did with a simple test on my android pho= ne. It is found that=C2=A0that less than 1/3 DNS queries on android impleme= nt HEv2.=C2=A0 And the average of AAAA and A query duration is 400ms. And t= he median is 200ms. That means 2/3 users will fallback to IPv6 enduring tha= t kind of delay.=C2=A0

The co-authors plan to firs= tly develop a data capture and analysis=C2=A0 process which can help to stu= dy the status of current HEv2 in ISPs (similar to test I do on my phone). W= e need more data for a valid problems statement as the starting point. We a= lso would like to invite more ISP operators to share their data to see if t= hey have the same problem or not.

Thanks for anyon= e who views this draft and give us suggestions.
Davey=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

= On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 13:59, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
This is updated from draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyebal= ls, which has been previously discussed. The authors requested time at the = recent IETF meeting and were declined, but they would still like working gr= oup feedback on their draft.



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autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrYkoqWTcyTB; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B55E129BBF; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id z80-v6so15886713ljb.8; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:32:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0EgBGXwPkV0s4SyqkLB5c+mhg8jvoImJlyqM7VY1KlE=; b=PTYGaoQrbjkx/j5b6LdBaui0Nf8OnPOVldGqG6plWPsY1RV33eQw9jBl5BFkWTK7pG 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/U6kdilhJvvDNjDjyO1ikNYLb7yTUburHcfALlDllkFcoYF36JQU3RTW6FBYrWJ/OkM/XBd1+DnEMHXuyjoVfI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:117:: with SMTP id 23-v6mr15978351ljb.131.1543224728268; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:32:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51084397aa90410684c599a2cb1953d0@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <275c824aec1c46c9a4fd4775e97fa127@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0f1eab2127ce49d2a7f3da56b053c741@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0c56d7eb-e7a3-0640-9612-176c595897d0@gmail.com> <7bbb7a430084407f801d0becaaa2906d@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <32e65875-6cbc-f180-4456-7a4b1a4cae50@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <32e65875-6cbc-f180-4456-7a4b1a4cae50@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 15:01:55 +0530 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Mark Smith , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcbaef057b8e01a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:32:14 -0000 --000000000000bcbaef057b8e01a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Handling is different for that and work is in progress. Yours, Naveen. On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 00:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2018-11-26 05:44, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > > Just adding my 2 cents. > > > > Even in our gateway we have both SLAAC and DHCPv6. For better routing of > > subscriber traffic, though these are two different protocols we had to > > assign a single prefix for each device. In case of SLAAC we let the > device > > leverage the complete 128 bit address generation and in DHCPv6 case, our > > box generates the 128 bit address using the same prefix, map against DUID > > and sends back to the devices. In the last 5-6 years of production till > > now we have not seen any device requesting more than 1 IA_NA and even our > > gateway does not support more than 1 DHCPv6 address; whereas all the > > devices which got the SLAAC prefix used at most 16 addresses. > > How will all this work when the subscribers are homenets that need > /56 or /48 prefixes? > > Brian > > > > Yours, > > Naveen. > > > > > > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 13:16, Mark Smith wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael Abrahamsson > wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >>> > >>>> Do you think we should bring back RAAN? > >>> > >>> Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern with the > >>> DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between leasetimers > >>> (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me. > >>> > >> > >> (I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been covered.) > >> > >> In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the prefix > >> to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is why > >> the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to announce > >> it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or > >> static, and if they're static (or at least stable across > >> disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is being used > >> to re-issue the same delegated prefix? > >> > >> The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment I > >> worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods: > >> > >> - for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of the > >> RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then uses > >> for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing domain > >> > >> - for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a pool > >> name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with that > >> name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute, > >> however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified in > >> RFCRFC6911. > >> > >> > >> An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be to > >> have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the CPE > >> advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP > >> sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address. > >> > >> "IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Addresses" > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00 > >> > >> "5.7.3. Automatic eBGP Session Establishment" > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#section-5.7.3 > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Mark. > >> > >> > >>> -- > >>> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --000000000000bcbaef057b8e01a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Handling is different for that and work is in progress.
Yours,
Naveen.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 00:56,= Brian E Carpenter <brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2018-11-26 05:44, Naveen Kottapalli wrote:
> Just adding my 2 cents.
>
> Even in our gateway we have both SLAAC and DHCPv6.=C2=A0 For better ro= uting of
> subscriber traffic, though these are two different protocols we had to=
> assign a single prefix for each device.=C2=A0 In case of SLAAC we let = the device
> leverage the complete 128 bit address generation and in DHCPv6 case, o= ur
> box generates the 128 bit address using the same prefix, map against D= UID
> and sends back to the devices.=C2=A0 In the last 5-6 years of producti= on till
> now we have not seen any device requesting more than 1 IA_NA and even = our
> gateway does not support more than 1 DHCPv6 address; whereas all the > devices which got the SLAAC prefix used at most 16 addresses.

How will all this work when the subscribers are homenets that need
/56 or /48 prefixes?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 13:16, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote: >
>> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:16, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote: >>>
>>> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you think we should bring back RAAN?
>>>
>>> Yes, but also note that the relay behavior is my least concern= with the
>>> DHCP+RA combination. The ships in the night problem between le= asetimers
>>> (DHCP) and lifetimes (RA) is a much bigger concern for me.
>>>
>>
>> (I haven't followed this thread, apologies if it has been cove= red.)
>>
>> In this scenario, I assume the DHCPv6 server is selecting the pref= ix
>> to delegate, and the BRAS is acting as a DHCPv6 relay, which is wh= y
>> the BRAS has to glean the delegated prefix to then be able to anno= unce
>> it into the routing domain? Are the delegated prefixes dynamic or<= br> >> static, and if they're static (or at least stable across
>> disconnect/connect), is it correct that the CPE's DUID is bein= g used
>> to re-issue the same delegated prefix?
>>
>> The reason I ask is that the IPv6 residential broadband deployment= I
>> worked on achieved this without gleaning via two methods:
>>
>> - for static delegated prefixes, the prefix is supplied as part of= the
>> RADIUS authentication response, which the BRAS DHCPv6 server then = uses
>> for DHCPv6-PD, and the BRAS can then announce into the routing dom= ain
>>
>> - for dynamic delegated prefixes, the RADIUS server provided a poo= l
>> name to allocate from, with each BRAS having a local pool with tha= t
>> name. At the time the pool name was a proprietary RADIUS attribute= ,
>> however there is now an IETF attribute for the pool name specified= in
>> RFCRFC6911.
>>
>>
>> An alternative idea, although probably more medium term, would be = to
>> have the CPE's receive the prefix via DHCPv6-PD, and then the = CPE
>> advertises the prefix itself, using automatically established eBGP=
>> sessions via a well known Link-Local anycast address.
>>
>> "IPv6 Formal Anycast Addresses and Functional Anycast Address= es"
>> https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00
>>
>> "5.7.3.=C2=A0 Automatic eBGP Session Establishment"
>>
>> ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-00#s= ection-5.7.3
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------= ------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.o= rg
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------= ------
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ipv6
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 82b7836d-8eea-433e-6aba-08d653aaaa88 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Nov 2018 14:22:58.8165 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4135 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-26_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=428 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1811260129 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:23:03 -0000 Folks, Each week between now and IETF 104, we will review and discuss one draft wi= th an eye towards progressing it. This week, please review and comment on draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyebal= ls. Fred and Ron From nobody Mon Nov 26 06:41:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50553126BED for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 06:41:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgYJNp3HWMGi for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 06:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6016130DE0 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2018 06:41:02 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wAQEf0gI001451 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:41:01 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Ron Bonica Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" References: From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:40:59 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:41:05 -0000 Ron Bonica wrote on 26/11/2018 14:22: > Each week between now and IETF 104, we will review and discuss one > draft with an eye towards progressing it. > > This week, please review and comment on draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs. what's outlined in the draft sounds interesting, and it would be useful to see code published which implements what's suggested. But I don't see a compelling case to publish this as an RFC. Sometimes running code is better. Nick From nobody Tue Nov 27 03:44:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01CF129A87 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:44:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmDDS3NbFMF5 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5815712F295 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:44:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 199BDBA; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 12:44:48 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1543319088; bh=hMaObZ1Ei/02Qf+5y/HdegNRfCObTNfezfDei+SUTjo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=sJhVbBZgTKslDMkfnFb6oqSWvRggc/jYzbetwKIU+RDrrVcEhjRA7tRsw9oU0GypK qjfufzlygVD0x5WuMv1/bEj1ayjmmNRyQ0r+IQ3LAQhNR/QMe3AeK8kYW9QFxMiiUK pexvwEZx74PtJxDBIPsyVr1amkj//1gp1RHdclik= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D3EB6; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 12:44:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 12:44:48 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Ron Bonica cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 11:44:55 -0000 On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Ron Bonica wrote: > This week, please review and comment on > draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs. I think it's a great idea to tell the operator about problems, that kind of telemetry can really help in operating the network. However, the proposed method of doing it (syslog) and the information it reports (IP addresses and domains the user is communicating with) has huge privacy implications. Also you have no idea who might be grabbing this information before it even makes it to the ISP). I think at a minimum there needs to be an encrypted and verified mechanism (https perhaps?) for doing the reporting, so you know where the report goes. I see three entities that have interest in this information, it's the ISP, the operating system manufacturer, and the web site which is having problems. If HE fails, I see very little harm (privacy) in telling the website about it using the address family that actually did work. So that could be included. For the device manufacturer, they have "send diagnostics information to vendor", so here customers can opt in. For the ISP, I have no idea. Here it might be better to define an API between the device vendor and the ISP, so that the device vendor can report problems seen, at an aggregate? I have personally been involved in getting operational people from my employer talking to device vendors to figure out what might be wrong, and automating this would be great. Also, the DNSSEC implications are glossed over grossly. We should take for granted that end devices are running validating resolvers and handle that use-case. So I'm supportive of the problem statement and it would help ISPs greatly if they could get telemetry from end devices, I just have great concerns over the method proposed in this draft. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue Nov 27 05:22:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D601130E98 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:22:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IgL4Pl8JXoN0 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB15F130E94 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:22:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1543324940; x=1543929740; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=M6obzhySEmzCxMIDyI6qWrdP9WyOjJRjt1ot0vPDS4s=; b=hxwGk5VKZ15nr QaKUA9kxvN2m1kXM2QSoqgMMy55WNpm1AoWou810sZeJdQiaVl5pAnu5ea/xCv9p fxCYiik1S2ZTE6vceq6vH8wYMy88DRJU9Df7Q1RNZxvuIn5qsOzFz5c5yPNVNZR+ 5FGTP0k2LRVQqc+Lvi8h5NEN+JLXgk= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:22:20 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:22:19 +0100 Received: from [197.10.32.200] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006012813.msg for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:22:19 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:4350:c:40:41a1:99ec:6dc2:f579 X-MDHelo: [197.10.32.200] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:22:19 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=186974acab=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:22:16 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Ron Bonica CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Message-ID: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:22:39 -0000 Hi Mikael, I got the impression that when I originally proposed this, syslog was a pri= vacy issue because it is sending data from "customers traffic" from their o= wn devices to the ISP. But in the actual proposal, the data is NOT from any customer, neither iden= tifying the customer at all. So not sure to understand if we have failed to clearly describe the way we = are measuring, or you'd in mind the previous document? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Mikael Abrahamsson Organizaci=C3=B3n: People's Front Against WWW Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 12:45 Para: Ron Bonica CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Ron Bonica wrote: =20 > This week, please review and comment on=20 > draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs. =20 I think it's a great idea to tell the operator about problems, that kin= d=20 of telemetry can really help in operating the network. =20 However, the proposed method of doing it (syslog) and the information i= t=20 reports (IP addresses and domains the user is communicating with) has h= uge=20 privacy implications. Also you have no idea who might be grabbing this= =20 information before it even makes it to the ISP). =20 I think at a minimum there needs to be an encrypted and verified mechan= ism=20 (https perhaps?) for doing the reporting, so you know where the report= =20 goes. =20 I see three entities that have interest in this information, it's the I= SP,=20 the operating system manufacturer, and the web site which is having=20 problems. If HE fails, I see very little harm (privacy) in telling the= =20 website about it using the address family that actually did work. So th= at=20 could be included. For the device manufacturer, they have "send=20 diagnostics information to vendor", so here customers can opt in. For t= he=20 ISP, I have no idea. Here it might be better to define an API between t= he=20 device vendor and the ISP, so that the device vendor can report problem= s=20 seen, at an aggregate? I have personally been involved in getting=20 operational people from my employer talking to device vendors to figure= =20 out what might be wrong, and automating this would be great. =20 Also, the DNSSEC implications are glossed over grossly. We should take = for=20 granted that end devices are running validating resolvers and handle th= at=20 use-case. =20 So I'm supportive of the problem statement and it would help ISPs great= ly=20 if they could get telemetry from end devices, I just have great concern= s=20 over the method proposed in this draft. =20 --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 27 05:28:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68EE130DFF for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:28:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqYoRCrG7AT8 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45DB0129385 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 99EEEB9; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:28:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1543325323; bh=S1tx+FX9YrTeVTDP1ed/y7b/ApmRPhLcee3hqri5DjE=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=bdcTuYe77stIO3XPHAYCbf0uHkiFqHApFISqseiHqC91fG4Uof5NeQjG2Jx/yQ9sm U8+v3GaZs37Dt5NufY+KXU9PpYekszK3Jcqti68ZimdM7s7egw4skXGJBrZb5uSfvs LnJ+k7Sv99UM+5D+r0aVXBp3viXlCSv2i2bLJGHU= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B34B1; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:28:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:28:43 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ cc: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" In-Reply-To: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> Message-ID: References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:28:49 -0000 On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi Mikael, > > I got the impression that when I originally proposed this, syslog was a privacy issue because it is sending data from "customers traffic" from their own devices to the ISP. > > But in the actual proposal, the data is NOT from any customer, neither identifying the customer at all. > > So not sure to understand if we have failed to clearly describe the way we are measuring, or you'd in mind the previous document? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs-01#section-4 4. Reporting IPv6 failures using syslog In order to simplify the reporting of the NHE failures, syslog ([RFC5424]) over UDP ([RFC5426]), MUST be used, by means of the default port (514) with IPv6-only. What is this then? When I re-read it it's not clear if this is for operator-operator communication or between client HE and operator. If it's for operator-operator, how is this address discovered? The reference to 4.1 about this doesn't make sense to me from a NHE perspective? Why is this conflating things with the NAT64 prefix? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue Nov 27 05:50:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E021130E33 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:50:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HjC5Ez0wkdJY for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7DD5130DD7 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:50:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1543326610; x=1543931410; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=c+9v5LL97jr+kDTgFhSxrfvFwUUG7B6OaPe9kGnTHAo=; b=hM45DD1mfjMLq rZ7btK1C1LJcqQXOUTuxyPTpuKwYFU3hrg12+dPlNwE7EjInrOTOnjo+z5ri8+C9 X/tqVR+Wsh0QCpIQyKGNKXgGNWU/rMnv9BzGsYjOw+VXwC4uJilX1WImyVJ9rzCE /cJiAJEtpayjiBAO5zN4NfJDYKbDn0= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:50:10 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:50:09 +0100 Received: from [197.10.32.200] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006012909.msg for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:50:08 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:4350:c:40:11e1:5305:5abd:6037 X-MDHelo: [197.10.32.200] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:50:08 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=186974acab=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:50:01 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:50:20 -0000 We can make the text clearer, but it mentions NHE (Network Happy Eyeballs).= So, the reporting is done "internally" in the ISP network. We believe that if the operator want to have multiple syslog servers, 4.1 w= ill help to avoid configuring the operator probes, and of course, we are as= suming that the operator has an IPv6-enabled network. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Mikael Abrahamsson Organizaci=C3=B3n: People's Front Against WWW Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 14:28 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: =20 > Hi Mikael, > > I got the impression that when I originally proposed this, syslog was= a privacy issue because it is sending data from "customers traffic" from t= heir own devices to the ISP. > > But in the actual proposal, the data is NOT from any customer, neithe= r identifying the customer at all. > > So not sure to understand if we have failed to clearly describe the w= ay we are measuring, or you'd in mind the previous document? =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs-01#se= ction-4 =20 4. Reporting IPv6 failures using syslog =20 In order to simplify the reporting of the NHE failures, syslog ([RFC5424]) over UDP ([RFC5426]), MUST be used, by means of the default port (514) with IPv6-only. =20 =20 =20 What is this then? When I re-read it it's not clear if this is for=20 operator-operator communication or between client HE and operator. If i= t's=20 for operator-operator, how is this address discovered? =20 The reference to 4.1 about this doesn't make sense to me from a NHE=20 perspective? Why is this conflating things with the NAT64 prefix? =20 --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 27 05:54:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49D6130DD7 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:54:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98wUHXpHHGH4 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52E3C130E34 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 05:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 30314B9; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:54:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1543326878; bh=qn7FOdzwpgTFEaBMsW1uDL5S8PLII5svrOWo9wJGvDw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=x5VlqupUE/u+NVMwT+VIz7U8lQoJHFImhFkEreEWEbd2chlV4P/OUA5MzbdGBDpqt oQ9/0A9sQAiFL4TfYpBhEVNnrpWv63xQJDSPy1hHUEV5XUtbqvw6L3/26gRs2c0HGC cSBi13GHS1aySsowhdcWGjEnwYqIDUxhiRO+eSEg= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C670B6; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:54:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:54:38 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ cc: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:54:43 -0000 On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > We can make the text clearer, but it mentions NHE (Network Happy Eyeballs). So, the reporting is done "internally" in the ISP network. > > We believe that if the operator want to have multiple syslog servers, 4.1 will help to avoid configuring the operator probes, and of course, we are assuming that the operator has an IPv6-enabled network. So this isn't even between operators, it's within a single operator? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue Nov 27 07:38:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AB0130E91 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:38:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teCqNUbhM-yp for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF90A130E9A for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:38:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1543333118; x=1543937918; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=XAUdu/Jcg117IGuxxLnAYmHsnKoYlAU5/9OkVgSIWCA=; b=MV/6Ij8Q+hYj3 /SY0zgzq1U8ug0/IHDhtROYGBun7VcyQBN/A1lflyPVXtXur0BWakjp8iUj54HIz CUHVxnsRen1Y9ubrtDzfx8m6AiFQ24mSAWfcS6dSkn06DYb/dDNSMIRCeLnif1Jg gkqvuJ2Wsgvgpep5I0ffmtPd2fRDVw= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:38:38 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:38:38 +0100 Received: from [10.16.104.164] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006013091.msg for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:38:38 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [10.16.104.164] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:38:38 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=186974acab=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:38:35 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:38:55 -0000 Yes, is within a specific network. If they decide later on to tell other ISPs "traffic from our network to you= r address xxx" is not working ... that's not handled by this document. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Mikael Abrahamsson Organizaci=C3=B3n: People's Front Against WWW Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 14:54 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: =20 > We can make the text clearer, but it mentions NHE (Network Happy Eyeb= alls). So, the reporting is done "internally" in the ISP network. > > We believe that if the operator want to have multiple syslog servers,= 4.1 will help to avoid configuring the operator probes, and of course, we = are assuming that the operator has an IPv6-enabled network. =20 So this isn't even between operators, it's within a single operator? =20 --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 27 07:41:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DBC130DC4 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4K-IieRt9nbS for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674B5126DBF for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:41:22 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wARFfItF087771 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:41:18 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , "v6ops@ietf.org list" References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:41:17 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:41:24 -0000 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote on 27/11/2018 15:38: > Yes, is within a specific network. > > If they decide later on to tell other ISPs "traffic from our network > to your address xxx" is not working ... that's not handled by this > document. O/S software to do this would be great. There's no need for IETF involvement. Nick From nobody Tue Nov 27 07:52:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14598130DDA for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BT-e4OdX2t3a for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F35E212D4E9 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:52:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1543333970; x=1543938770; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=5361Lg0g25AcVgZpJ63rxUYF9KiZGQBMb3yeVrJFE2w=; b=Bh5auFqvNDsXd DIxcd5G1Yz1zrgMZD8LkEjZRdCYLNxZIWDad3Rde4sTAJA1PgX82PpIN5hidAUYz 2W3IHfURWmxcPgVEmYGszhy55cxfcNjP8eZuQzv3Hz4UiNNKHUPpOkRt4tW7pZXf GmNPIrlwzwQ3pxvPrDN8O41FP5O5j8= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:52:50 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:52:49 +0100 Received: from [10.16.104.164] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006013172.msg for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:52:48 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [10.16.104.164] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:52:48 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=186974acab=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:52:41 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Nick Hilliard CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:52:55 -0000 In the previous related work, I was told otherwise: let's the ISPs do it, n= ot the O/S vendors ... Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Nick Hilliard Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 16:42 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote on 27/11/2018 15:38: > Yes, is within a specific network. >=20 > If they decide later on to tell other ISPs "traffic from our network > to your address xxx" is not working ... that's not handled by this > document. O/S software to do this would be great. There's no need for IETF=20 involvement. =20 Nick =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 27 08:05:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14B8130ED6 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 08:05:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlBiDGyBwJT8 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 08:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from orange.com (mta241.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31D55130EED for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 08:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4347sq3yr6z8tdp; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 17:05:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.18]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4347sq319TzBrLM; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 17:05:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cba:56d0:a732:ef5a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 17:05:19 +0100 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "Nick Hilliard" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs Thread-Index: AQHUhmlcmU7Hfk90lEukLC5aUNdD3KVjx4xQ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:05:18 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302E04E767@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:05:34 -0000 Sm9yZGksIA0KDQpJdCBpcyBub3QgdW51c3VhbCB0aGF0IG9wZXJhdG9ycyBkZXBsb3lpbmcgSVB2 NiBtb25pdG9yIGJvdGggSVB2NC9JUHY2IHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIG1ldHJpY3MgdG8gdHJhY2sgYW5k IGRldGVjdCBzZXZlcmUgZ2Fwcy4gDQoNCk5ldmVydGhlbGVzcywgdGhhdCBwcm9iaW5nIGRvZXMg bm90IGFsbG93IHRvICoqIGRldGVybWluaXN0aWNhbGx5ICoqIGNvbmNsdWRlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHJv b3Qgb2YgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gaXMgYXQgdGhlIHNlcnZlciBzaWRlIChwcm94eSwgQ0ROLCBldGMu KS4gDQoNCkdhcHMgaW4gdjQvdjYgbWV0cmljcyBpcyB1c2VkIGFzIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bSBkZXRlY3Rpb24gdHJpZ2dlcnMgYW1vbmcgb3RoZXJzOiB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSBtYXkgYmUgY2F1 c2VkIGJ5IGEgbWlzYmVoYXZpbmcgcm91dGVyL25vZGUgb24gSVB2NiBwYWNrZXRzLCBsb2NhbCBm b3J3YXJkaW5nIGlzc3VlcywgY29uZ2VzdGlvbm5lZCBsaW5rcyB3aXRoIGEgcGVlci90cmFuc2l0 IHByb3ZpZGVycywgZXRjLiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UsIGluIHNvbWUgY2FzZXMgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgcHJv dmlkZXIgaXMgY29udGFjdGVkIHRvIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGJ5IHR1bmluZywgZm9yIGV4 YW1wbGUsIGhvdyB0aGUgdHJhZmZpYyBpcyBkZWxpdmVyZWQgdG8gdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsgcHJvdmlk ZXIuIA0KDQpTbywgc2VuZGluZyBhbiBhdXRvbWF0aWMgcmVwb3J0IHRvIHNvbWUgc2VydmVyIG1h eSBub3QgaGVscCBzb2x2aW5nIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtLg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNZWQNCg0KPiAtLS0t LU1lc3NhZ2UgZCdvcmlnaW5lLS0tLS0NCj4gRGXCoDogdjZvcHMgW21haWx0bzp2Nm9wcy1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBEZSBsYSBwYXJ0IGRlIEpPUkRJIFBBTEVUIE1BUlRJTkVaDQo+IEVudm95 w6nCoDogbWFyZGkgMjcgbm92ZW1icmUgMjAxOCAxNjo1Mw0KPiDDgMKgOiBOaWNrIEhpbGxpYXJk DQo+IENjwqA6IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnIGxpc3QNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogUmU6IFt2Nm9wc10gZHJh ZnQteGllLXY2b3BzLW5ldHdvcmstaGFwcHlleWViYWxscw0KPiANCj4gSW4gdGhlIHByZXZpb3Vz IHJlbGF0ZWQgd29yaywgSSB3YXMgdG9sZCBvdGhlcndpc2U6IGxldCdzIHRoZSBJU1BzIGRvIGl0 LCBub3QNCj4gdGhlIE8vUyB2ZW5kb3JzIC4uLg0KPiANCj4gUmVnYXJkcywNCj4gSm9yZGkNCj4g DQo+IA0KPiANCj4g77u/LS0tLS1NZW5zYWplIG9yaWdpbmFsLS0tLS0NCj4gRGU6IHY2b3BzIDx2 Nm9wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBlbiBub21icmUgZGUgTmljayBIaWxsaWFyZA0KPiA8bmlj a0Bmb29iYXIub3JnPg0KPiBGZWNoYTogbWFydGVzLCAyNyBkZSBub3ZpZW1icmUgZGUgMjAxOCwg MTY6NDINCj4gUGFyYTogSk9SREkgUEFMRVQgTUFSVElORVogPGpvcmRpLnBhbGV0PTQwY29uc3Vs aW50ZWwuZXNAZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IENDOiAidjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgbGlzdCIgPHY2 b3BzQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBBc3VudG86IFJlOiBbdjZvcHNdIGRyYWZ0LXhpZS12Nm9wcy1uZXR3 b3JrLWhhcHB5ZXllYmFsbHMNCj4gDQo+ICAgICBKT1JESSBQQUxFVCBNQVJUSU5FWiB3cm90ZSBv biAyNy8xMS8yMDE4IDE1OjM4Og0KPiAgICAgPiBZZXMsIGlzIHdpdGhpbiBhIHNwZWNpZmljIG5l dHdvcmsuDQo+ICAgICA+DQo+ICAgICA+IElmIHRoZXkgZGVjaWRlIGxhdGVyIG9uIHRvIHRlbGwg b3RoZXIgSVNQcyAidHJhZmZpYyBmcm9tIG91ciBuZXR3b3JrDQo+ICAgICA+IHRvIHlvdXIgYWRk cmVzcyB4eHgiIGlzIG5vdCB3b3JraW5nIC4uLiB0aGF0J3Mgbm90IGhhbmRsZWQgYnkgdGhpcw0K PiAgICAgPiBkb2N1bWVudC4NCj4gICAgIE8vUyBzb2Z0d2FyZSB0byBkbyB0aGlzIHdvdWxkIGJl IGdyZWF0LiAgVGhlcmUncyBubyBuZWVkIGZvciBJRVRGDQo+ICAgICBpbnZvbHZlbWVudC4NCj4g DQo+ICAgICBOaWNrDQo+IA0KPiAgICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gICAgIHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiAgICAgdjZvcHNAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMN Cj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+ICoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioNCj4gSVB2NCBpcyBvdmVyDQo+IEFyZSB5b3UgcmVhZHkgZm9yIHRoZSBuZXcgSW50 ZXJuZXQgPw0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRoZWlwdjZjb21wYW55LmNvbQ0KPiBUaGUgSVB2NiBDb21w YW55DQo+IA0KPiBUaGlzIGVsZWN0cm9uaWMgbWVzc2FnZSBjb250YWlucyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB3 aGljaCBtYXkgYmUgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCBvcg0KPiBjb25maWRlbnRpYWwuIFRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlv biBpcyBpbnRlbmRlZCB0byBiZSBmb3IgdGhlIGV4Y2x1c2l2ZSB1c2Ugb2YgdGhlDQo+IGluZGl2 aWR1YWwocykgbmFtZWQgYWJvdmUgYW5kIGZ1cnRoZXIgbm9uLWV4cGxpY2lsdHkgYXV0aG9yaXpl ZCBkaXNjbG9zdXJlLA0KPiBjb3B5aW5nLCBkaXN0cmlidXRpb24gb3IgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBjb250 ZW50cyBvZiB0aGlzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBldmVuIGlmDQo+IHBhcnRpYWxseSwgaW5jbHVkaW5n IGF0dGFjaGVkIGZpbGVzLCBpcyBzdHJpY3RseSBwcm9oaWJpdGVkIGFuZCB3aWxsIGJlDQo+IGNv bnNpZGVyZWQgYSBjcmltaW5hbCBvZmZlbnNlLiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQg cmVjaXBpZW50IGJlIGF3YXJlDQo+IHRoYXQgYW55IGRpc2Nsb3N1cmUsIGNvcHlpbmcsIGRpc3Ry aWJ1dGlvbiBvciB1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnRzIG9mIHRoaXMNCj4gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24sIGV2 ZW4gaWYgcGFydGlhbGx5LCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgYXR0YWNoZWQgZmlsZXMsIGlzIHN0cmljdGx5DQo+ IHByb2hpYml0ZWQsIHdpbGwgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZCBhIGNyaW1pbmFsIG9mZmVuc2UsIHNvIHlv dSBtdXN0IHJlcGx5IHRvIHRoZQ0KPiBvcmlnaW5hbCBzZW5kZXIgdG8gaW5mb3JtIGFib3V0IHRo aXMgY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgZGVsZXRlIGl0Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby92Nm9wcw0K From nobody Thu Nov 29 14:54:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3C5130E03 for ; 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Thu, 29 Nov 2018 14:53:45 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 14:53:44 -0800 Cc: Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <3FA83EEE-79ED-40BA-A1C4-37021457A407@apple.com> References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.36) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-29_14:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 22:54:04 -0000 > On Nov 27, 2018, at 7:52 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > In the previous related work, I was told otherwise: let's the ISPs do = it, not the O/S vendors ... I think the point being made here is that open source software can be = created and distributed to ISPs to run in their networks; it doesn't = necessarily require any standard or draft to do it. Thanks, Tommy >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Nick Hilliard = > Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 16:42 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = > CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs >=20 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote on 27/11/2018 15:38: >> Yes, is within a specific network. >>=20 >> If they decide later on to tell other ISPs "traffic from our network >> to your address xxx" is not working ... that's not handled by this >> document. > O/S software to do this would be great. There's no need for IETF=20= > involvement. >=20 > Nick >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Nov 29 15:00:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFFD128D68 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:52 -0800 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com [17.128.115.122]) by ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.3.20180614 64bit (built Jun 14 2018)) with ESMTPS id <0PIZ00AKM99E2CC0@ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_viserion-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.3.20180614 64bit (built Jun 14 2018)) id <0PIZ0000098Q8S00@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:52 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: d0da30c38250c6aaf4d66a9435de6e77 X-Va-E-CD: f71beb204b4f60cdce73fbc80db3796a X-Va-R-CD: 82fcc35f9f823c07dc24a73be636f3a4 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 148135d3-7c8d-4d91-8f70-5a7cca7c5329 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 94ffde6d864771f6e23176fb95b417f0 X-V-E-CD: f71beb204b4f60cdce73fbc80db3796a X-V-R-CD: 82fcc35f9f823c07dc24a73be636f3a4 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 16995545-2397-4bf1-ac07-94e075c01a9b Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.3.20180614 64bit (built Jun 14 2018)) id <0PIZ00K0091PIP00@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2018-11-29_14:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.234.40.219] (unknown [17.234.40.219]) by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.3.20180614 64bit (built Jun 14 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0PIZ006XV99FMV20@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:00:50 -0800 Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <007D3C39-C6F2-4F80-8AB0-4972DE692554@apple.com> References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.36) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-29_14:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 23:00:58 -0000 Even with non-customer traffic, is syslog really the state of the art = for sending data back to servers? Do you want anyone and everyone to see = this information? Regarding the active measurements themselves, I think the draft would = benefit from referencing some of the RFCs and drafts from the IPPM = Working Group. We have various documents on one-way and two-way active = measurements (OWAMP/TWAMP). You can also take a look at some standard = ways of reporting the metrics themselves, as described here: = draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-08. Thanks, Tommy > On Nov 27, 2018, at 5:22 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mikael, >=20 > I got the impression that when I originally proposed this, syslog was = a privacy issue because it is sending data from "customers traffic" from = their own devices to the ISP. >=20 > But in the actual proposal, the data is NOT from any customer, neither = identifying the customer at all. >=20 > So not sure to understand if we have failed to clearly describe the = way we are measuring, or you'd in mind the previous document? >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Mikael Abrahamsson = > Organizaci=C3=B3n: People's Front Against WWW > Fecha: martes, 27 de noviembre de 2018, 12:45 > Para: Ron Bonica > CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs >=20 > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 >> This week, please review and comment on=20 >> draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs. >=20 > I think it's a great idea to tell the operator about problems, that = kind=20 > of telemetry can really help in operating the network. >=20 > However, the proposed method of doing it (syslog) and the = information it=20 > reports (IP addresses and domains the user is communicating with) = has huge=20 > privacy implications. Also you have no idea who might be grabbing = this=20 > information before it even makes it to the ISP). >=20 > I think at a minimum there needs to be an encrypted and verified = mechanism=20 > (https perhaps?) for doing the reporting, so you know where the = report=20 > goes. >=20 > I see three entities that have interest in this information, it's = the ISP,=20 > the operating system manufacturer, and the web site which is having=20= > problems. If HE fails, I see very little harm (privacy) in telling = the=20 > website about it using the address family that actually did work. = So that=20 > could be included. For the device manufacturer, they have "send=20 > diagnostics information to vendor", so here customers can opt in. = For the=20 > ISP, I have no idea. Here it might be better to define an API = between the=20 > device vendor and the ISP, so that the device vendor can report = problems=20 > seen, at an aggregate? I have personally been involved in getting=20= > operational people from my employer talking to device vendors to = figure=20 > out what might be wrong, and automating this would be great. >=20 > Also, the DNSSEC implications are glossed over grossly. We should = take for=20 > granted that end devices are running validating resolvers and = handle that=20 > use-case. >=20 > So I'm supportive of the problem statement and it would help ISPs = greatly=20 > if they could get telemetry from end devices, I just have great = concerns=20 > over the method proposed in this draft. >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Fri Nov 30 08:55:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732D0130E12 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 08:55:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M17QyWD2ku8L for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 08:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogstar.hit.bme.hu (frogstar.hit.bme.hu [IPv6:2001:738:2001:4020::2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E68F128BCC for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (host-79-121-42-41.kabelnet.hu [79.121.42.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by frogstar.hit.bme.hu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wAUGtKDj024374 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 17:55:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lencse@hit.bme.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: frogstar.hit.bme.hu: Host host-79-121-42-41.kabelnet.hu [79.121.42.41] claimed to be [192.168.1.119] To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <30D71C7B-1FBF-49C2-A5C6-40948550CA69@consulintel.es> <2372941b-67e7-a418-d81c-545aa4ab1010@foobar.org> <3FA83EEE-79ED-40BA-A1C4-37021457A407@apple.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=c3=a1bor?= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 17:55:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3FA83EEE-79ED-40BA-A1C4-37021457A407@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.1 at frogstar.hit.bme.hu X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: pass (frogstar.hit.bme.hu: authenticated connection) receiver=frogstar.hit.bme.hu; client-ip=79.121.42.41; helo=[192.168.1.119]; envelope-from=lencse@hit.bme.hu; x-software=spfmilter 2.001 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.2.10; X-DCC--Metrics: frogstar.hit.bme.hu; whitelist X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 152.66.248.44 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-xie-v6ops-network-happyeyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 16:55:34 -0000 11/29/2018 11:53 PM keltezéssel, Tommy Pauly írta: > >> On Nov 27, 2018, at 7:52 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> >> In the previous related work, I was told otherwise: let's the ISPs do it, not the O/S vendors ... > I think the point being made here is that open source software can be created and distributed to ISPs to run in their networks; it doesn't necessarily require any standard or draft to do it. I think you are completely right that the software can be written without an I-D, however, I think that its specification would benefit from a matured draft. Gábor > Thanks, > Tommy >> Regards, >> Jordi >> From nobody Fri Nov 30 14:25:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5A5130EC8; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:25:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <154361671222.27410.9436586350814710547@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:25:12 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:25:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service Authors : Jordi Palet Martinez Hans M.-H. Liu Masanobu Kawashima Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2018-11-30 Abstract: This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service provider or through the retail market. Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6 transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS) by means of new transition mechanisms. The document only covers transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS). This is necessary because there aren't sufficient IPv4 addresses available for every possible customer/device. However, devices or applications in the customer LANs may be IPv4-only or IPv6-only and still need to communicate with IPv4-only services at the Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Nov 30 14:28:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D192113107F for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:28:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TsGpY10cL4K for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44AA9130DF2 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:28:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1543616893; x=1544221693; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=TPKo20HS j3lXwp7ilqRGC2Y3/isWQlDx1XN+O+EjGqs=; b=DrSRYXIR9RxRA9FyqIn/HaBO xArxm/pqe3pAVVCE4ivYj2Yinw0BuPGW+ljhxN6h3E+JmNfyv4S8F1QxpQlMD5MX YXSVlyOBv41tQgP+PNrUyK/xKr8PF2HU4IVm+67hUYzVvsHHc5hVo+QMI8ksE/S9 KW6lyFITLzvGkbSKHQQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:28:13 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:28:13 +0100 Received: from [10.100.23.53] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006024060.msg for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:28:12 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [10.100.23.53] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:28:12 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1872d5970d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:28:09 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt References: <154361671222.27410.9436586350814710547@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154361671222.27410.9436586350814710547@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:28:18 -0000 Hi all, The new version of this document has been updated only to apply editorial e= dits as requested by our AD. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 30 de noviembre de 2018, 23:25 Para: CC: Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt =20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. =20 Title : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers t= o Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service Authors : Jordi Palet Martinez Hans M.-H. Liu Masanobu Kawashima Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2018-11-30 =20 Abstract: This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service provider or through the retail market. =20 Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6 transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS) by means of new transition mechanisms. The document only covers transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS). This is necessary because there aren't sufficient IPv4 addresses available for every possible customer/device. However, devices or application= s in the customer LANs may be IPv4-only or IPv6-only and still need to communicate with IPv4-only services at the Internet. =20 =20 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ =20 There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4a= as-11 =20 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas= -11 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. =20 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Nov 30 15:30:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EAD126DBF; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:30:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: Ron Bonica , draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas@ietf.org, rbonica@juniper.net, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <154362062994.27437.16040635891456835117.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:30:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Last Call: (Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 23:30:30 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IPv6 Operations WG (v6ops) to consider the following document: - 'Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-12-14. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service provider or through the retail market. Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6 transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS) by means of new transition mechanisms. The document only covers transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS). This is necessary because there aren't sufficient IPv4 addresses available for every possible customer/device. However, devices or applications in the customer LANs may be IPv4-only or IPv6-only and still need to communicate with IPv4-only services at the Internet. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.

You can create your own discussion gr= oup outside IETF, but please stop creating unnecessary noise in the lists, = which only discourage people to keep participating in other more relevant w= orks.

 

I will love the = chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on.=

 

You need to learn how IETF works, we li= ke it or not (I=E2=80=99m not saying is perfect, and indeed we can do it mu= ch better), but in this specific case, you are wasting people time instead = of reading all the information that is there to tell you how to contribute.= Many people tried to help you in the right direction, including myself whe= n I was sergeant-at-arms, and you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not in= terested in understanding it.


Regards,

Jordi

 

=  

 

De:= v6ops <v6ops-bo= unces@ietf.org> en nombre de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com= >
Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Par= a: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operation= s <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to t= he v6ops Charter

 

I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are ma= ny changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to= say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regar= ding this discussion?

Best Regards

Khaled Omar

 

From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net&g= t;
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khal= ed Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v= 6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wro= te:

Hi Warren,

  

The protocol is under devel= opment, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate t= o IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 <= /o:p>

 

We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working grou= ps have not demonstrated interest in your proposal. =

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-= topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the same for the= V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

 

I understand that you believe that you have a grea= t idea / solution, but there isn't any support for this in any of the IETF = WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be frustrating for you, but simply r= epeating yourself isn't going  to change that.

 

W

=

 

 <= /o:p>

 = ;

<= div>

Khaled

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sen= t: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@g= mail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

=

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 201= 8 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:



= > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment i= s to work in the host to achieve the last part.

Two comments:
1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the se= nse that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the applicatio= ns, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.
2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told = you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and ask= ed you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (= v6ops@ietf.org). I'= m trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. = But this topic doesn't belong on this list.

 

This is very true -- it is more like 6MA= N that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS charter.

 

The f= act that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this is= off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this..

=  =

W

 

----------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------
The fact that there is a highway to hell an= d a stairway to heaven is an interesting comment on projected traffic volum= e...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailin= g list
v6ops@ietf.or= g
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


 

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a ba= d idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pa= nts, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid we= asels and that pair of pants.
   ---maf

<= /div>


 

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it= was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid= weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those = particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
   ---maf

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6op= s@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT243; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT243: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT243; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT243; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: FqaZrY/VqXyUk0llRBxddZThnlqyBTG+24Ph9DR1AX7K8USLUeOz1QWwfiGerdqO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB293738B65A5D4EE2C974B9D4AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fcd41842-8ca4-4cc6-916c-08d64cdcf96c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 22:35:28.0161 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT243 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:35:36 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293738B65A5D4EE2C974B9D4AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jordi, We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion l= ike that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and= share thoughts. Khaled ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is pe= rfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific case, you= are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that is the= re to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in the righ= t direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you keep ign= oring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: Hi Warren, The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. W Khaled From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker > Cc: Khaled Omar >; IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take yo= ur topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don= 't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list. This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. W ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --_000_HE1PR0402MB293738B65A5D4EE2C974B9D4AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jordi,

We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion like that, there are many people= who are willing to represent themselves and share thoughts.

Khaled
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter
 

You can create your = own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop creating unnecessary noi= se in the lists, which only discourage people to keep participating in othe= r more relevant works.

 

I will love the chai= rs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on.

 

You need to learn ho= w IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is perfect, and indeed we= can do it much better), but in this specific case, you are wasting people = time instead of reading all the information that is there to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you= in the right direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and = you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it.<= /span>


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: v6ops <v6ops-bo= unces@ietf.org> en nombre de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com= >
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

I'm n= ot repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are many cha= nges that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to say, = where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regarding this discussion?

Best Regards

Khaled Omar

 

From: Warren Kumari <warr= en@kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at= 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng= .khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

  

The protocol is under development, but does this mean= s that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice= versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 

 

We already have multiple transition tec= hnologies -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in your prop= osal. 

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-top= ic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the same for the V6= OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

 

I understand that you b= elieve that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any supp= ort for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be f= rustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going  to change that.

 

W

 

 

 

Khaled

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

&n= bsp;

 

&n= bsp;

On= Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and a= sked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations= (v6ops@ietf.org). = I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this = list.

&n= bsp;

This is very true -- it = is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS cha= rter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6MA= N *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this is off-topic indicate= s that the IETF doesn't want to work on this..<= /span>

 

W

&n= bsp;

--= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

&n= bsp;

--=

I = don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in t= he first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf


 

--

I don't think the execu= tion is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf

_______________________= ________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--_000_HE1PR0402MB293738B65A5D4EE2C974B9D4AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:38:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E32128C65 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:38:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zs0Y07y0eoPm for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 588EA130DDE for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B55401BC37 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:38:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:38:56 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: >=20 > The input of the algorithm is 32-binary bits and can be extended to = mor eeeee than that, one case is that the output is 5-binary bits with = different output voltages Then they are **NOT** bits. That's very fundamental stuff, and if you = don't grasp basics like that then I suggest you stay away from trying to = design complex protocols ! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:42:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC8812EB11 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4ZPA0UqXP6Z for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD72D1292AD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:42:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1542494531; x=1543099331; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=j7ypzhBnlPvNaWgXsf34l+ 7++LqwQ3dJUYRfaKHTiQI=; b=MfBGCUgCEbvz+1rKsp2dUjO3D0q0eTG98urq87 n3ecXReGiD3H8hlh56PVCyf/+nHMQ8afa9WdVa728Eu9GQw1YROAM5XV3V+zMLef QzFp+S5c3GmgwS1I8bCZzxNmknNN1zARINlTMX/z2cqw9j7COYSYhZmwdLSWLXBv /SVhw= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:42:11 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:42:10 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.130] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005983238.msg for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:42:09 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:20b7:e9ff:21ce:e117 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.130] X-MDArrival-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:42:09 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185925af61=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:42:05 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Khaled Omar , Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: <906F4279-FBB8-43C3-AFBA-1BC3E6201B3D@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> <973B856E-1919-47C1-BA5B-311AB5B05E55@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3625342925_163075156" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:42:18 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3625342925_163075156 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve not heard a single voice telling that this work should be in t= his list or 6man, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is o= ut of scope. =20 You=E2=80=99re asking where to discuss it, if you think there is other peop= le interested, create your own email list and ask those folks to subscribe = to it. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 Jordi, We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion l= ike that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and= share thoughts. Khaled=20 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. =20 I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. =20 You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=E2=80=99m not saying= is perfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific cas= e, you are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that = is there to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in th= e right direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you ke= ep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar =20 From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar w= rote: Hi Warren, =20 The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? =20 =20 We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal.=20 Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him.= =20 =20 I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. =20 W =20 =20 =20 Khaled =20 From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker Cc: Khaled Omar ; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker wrot= e: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar wr= ote: >=20 > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic elsewhere. Th= e same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentl= e with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn= 't belong on this list. =20 This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. =20 The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. =20 W =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3625342925_163075156 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I=E2=80=99ve not heard a single voice= telling that this work should be in this list or 6man, and the chairs of b= oth, had already told you that it is out of scope.

<= o:p> 

You=E2=80=99re asking where to discuss it, if = you think there is other people interested, create your own email list and = ask those folks to subscribe to it.


Regar= ds,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: Khaled Omar &= lt;eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de novi= embre de 2018, 23:35
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>= ;, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: IP= v6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix re= levance to the v6ops Charter

 

Jordi,

We = are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives me= the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs an= d with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those who= are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion like= that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and sh= are thoughts.

Khaled

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.e= s>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM
To: K= haled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: = Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but ple= ase stop creating unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage peo= ple to keep participating in other more relevant works.

&nbs= p;

<= span lang=3DEN-US>I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you = insist going on.

 =

You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=E2=80=99m n= ot saying is perfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this spe= cific case, you are wasting people time instead of reading all the informat= ion that is there to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help = you in the right direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, a= nd you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding i= t.


Regards,<= /span>

Jordi

 

 

 <= o:p>

De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nomb= re de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=C3= =A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Para: Warren Kumari <w= arren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

&n= bsp;

I'm not repeating myself,= maybe the core idea is the same but there are many changes that works towa= rds solving this problem, I have one more word to say, where can we discuss= this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regarding this discussion?

Best Reg= ards

Khal= ed Omar

 =

=

From: Warren Kumari <warren= @kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subjec= t: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter <= /p>

 =

 

 =

On Th= u, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

 =  

The protocol is under development, b= ut does this means that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-on= ly hosts and vice versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 

 

We already have multiple trans= ition technologies -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in = your proposal. 

= Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him.=  

 

I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution,= but there isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I= know that this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself = isn't going  to change that.

 

W

 

 

 

<= /div>

Khaled

=

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 201= 8 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Kh= aled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject:= Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

=

 =

 =

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 = at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

=



> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34= PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Thi= s is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host to ach= ieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changin= g the host has been the hardest part, in the sense that the common Socket l= ayer is partially implemented in the applications, so deploying IPv6 has me= ant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic = of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic = in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic el= sewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with y= ou, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belon= g on this list.

 

This is very true --= it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS= charter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all = said that this is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on= this..

 

W

 

--= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is= an interesting comment on projected traffic volume...

_____________= __________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


 

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad id= ea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants,= and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasel= s and that pair of pants.
   ---maf


 

--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was= obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and = later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and= that pair of pants.
   ---maf

________________________= _______________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is ove= r
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com<= br>The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information whi= ch may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for= the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explici= lty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the in= tended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use= of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached= files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so y= ou must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and= delete it.


*********************************= *************
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Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--B_3625342925_163075156-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:45:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD3012EB11 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdmuS0yL8yAH for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092064084.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.64.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 863571292AD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:44:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=u+nCU+dRhyeeIaoCZOk1QoV4dc4hh7Q1xvBRzUfrvVE=; b=CYQejwpzunSgtDVkXBEor6u0mv/KvZnBtZfAM1VmmS13p2jJbThANJDKiyYsAruy5SncjlnoskCcXYc3GZ5M8rzOZ/U+UVJThcc10JgJkd++asScfv7MXvgTG5xK+cuV9vWU33P13xnDDKyPmxMHQjD87B/VUnD6ELRcXf/XacEf3zXdvpEalYLMfyTI8AHK2sYA1wU/mGHPGi8lQEfUMM7cFZKZaCDQbNBXJDnkQKTt5kRGxIhIl4z3fok+reszWRMuDNBP2ya+4pYP+29g1V+k+2fH2O3remWMYtQvyiXrhD9xTeZeL8aUqsRDqyBi+h+0oP50321KohQ/tZn+Mg== Received: from VE1EUR01FT020.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.55) by VE1EUR01HT192.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.3.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:44:53 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.2.60) by VE1EUR01FT020.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.234) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:44:53 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:44:52 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNh Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:44:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> , <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:8919DC2CC26404C69BBF4E86E96D84805087C56DFE9138906B73A9BE8BB5E29A; UpperCasedChecksum:6A8C80E6114C12F699C0E4AA71A4FF27A0256F067F42E25E6A64ECED6848885A; SizeAsReceived:7807; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [E9xh6BvRrZJsw+/BX19bavQNNLv29auz] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR01HT192; 6:SNaUBraPRKYcJXIF1aYHr0GL2PcsDFA4AOH8L545FmZJMjhH62fnX1jwhIOjV5vXckQeo/ptqUfQqX7S4L5J03Il/E7H1xY6lOx5kMkpMN+BpudPiTKQEr44BVcmIka46oOzYtZNge+JnMEEgf9GDIMV46HWyxx3sdOAjrFB3tfiEy/ArxcxQszGeUt7ZfsbHVeXJdOL1o9e4R1X6lxmxhUL261zYxwm/mMDtTX07vGAQ+8t0tpHW1wVKGSi1nwwHWfvmsop1XcjFMz9FdKOCEdIUco71xgVPWrAT+9aJvUoaMrg4Qyj8ZtPuFrYvaojfiz7ZBHhbpyq4LZlUOsxWK2tdIOKujTUUez7P+SHH+uns7L+ONByHOb23+s7eWjfqWrHcROZ2BXWSLkJQu56Y8bO6ws0gmkLkkK/nAwhhsa3zo88H0s2ZMQXMZTprlu+XigFzX++btDgCtj4aSG3zg==; 5:qeRtlfKvAihs+F/3bl3XgUlSCTa33zDX8CXyM+6Lh8iIcItbmrugd5Vu83m8O0HZ+GtS0A2UeAQA9nww2nm2mncw/iRpDjTtQhnTaLacheX0bEjhOjfHCcmW+SjVa3vFrknpil1KIkKyemSTkV8hFsugdVh5A+wf5cy+RZFO9EI=; 7:tWLAtJbzgqa8ITPdm26z4xMQVecbMKA4j2X0nUTE0r7sLAnm91IulYI/YMHjgi/bccnlWujGhBo50uJRlmgNNO/twspxfjH/fg9syOtVg+rNeFeeWqiJUE82Zzo2ZSoDJAMjHs1lhg9PwHRly8NWkw== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT192; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR01HT192: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT192; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR01HT192; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: KSalmEAHuFDxRh25xDh387PNg7Kl5K43Yj56hcxWjpp4K74LQHvKDLC3bmIAmq3g Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB2937FAC72830B20BB6C5C1ACAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2a8f8ff9-7daa-4a9f-9376-08d64cde49d8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 22:44:52.3623 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT192 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:44:59 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937FAC72830B20BB6C5C1ACAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable simon, The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction betw= een this and the link you suggested. Khaled ________________________________ From: v6ops on behalf of Simon Hobson Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:38:50 AM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > > The input of the algorithm is 32-binary bits and can be extended to mor e= eeee than that, one case is that the output is 5-binary bits with different= output voltages Then they are **NOT** bits. That's very fundamental stuff, and if you don't= grasp basics like that then I suggest you stay away from trying to design = complex protocols ! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937FAC72830B20BB6C5C1ACAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
simon,

The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction betw= een this and the link you suggested.

Khaled
From: v6ops <v6ops-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk><= br> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:38:50 AM
To: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wr= ote:
>
> The input of the algorithm is 32-binary bits and can be extended to mo= r eeeee than that, one case is that the output is 5-binary bits with differ= ent output voltages

Then they are **NOT** bits. That's very fundamental stuff, and if you don't= grasp basics like that then I suggest you stay away from trying to design = complex protocols !

See https://en.wikipedia.org/= wiki/Bit

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937FAC72830B20BB6C5C1ACAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 14:51:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F113712D4EC for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:51:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DCF0Izx7_uY1 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 14:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur01olkn0806.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe1e::806]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAE9E129AB8 for ; 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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT073; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR01HT073: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT073; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR01HT073; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: P+HHrt9xsMrUOiQEO1TcZhELSANxsVRAfZlADPwmK+26W7O0ziRkF9C5le4xbN84 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB29374616D2935B9E15534A08AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 70f28b2c-c125-455d-ac17-08d64cdf39c7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2018 22:51:34.9017 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT073 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:51:42 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB29374616D2935B9E15534A08AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more contr= ibutions expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then = if no more to add then it will be the end of the discussion. Khaled ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter I=92ve not heard a single voice telling that this work should be in this li= st or 6man, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is out of = scope. You=92re asking where to discuss it, if you think there is other people int= erested, create your own email list and ask those folks to subscribe to it. Regards, Jordi De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter Jordi, We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion l= ike that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and= share thoughts. Khaled ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is pe= rfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific case, you= are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that is the= re to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in the righ= t direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you keep ign= oring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: Hi Warren, The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. W Khaled From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker > Cc: Khaled Omar >; IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take yo= ur topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don= 't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list. This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. W ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --_000_HE1PR0402MB29374616D2935B9E15534A08AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more contr= ibutions expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then = if no more to add then it will be the end of the discussion.

Khaled
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter
 

I=92ve not heard a s= ingle voice telling that this work should be in this list or 6man, and the = chairs of both, had already told you that it is out of scope.

 

You=92re asking wher= e to discuss it, if you think there is other people interested, create your= own email list and ask those folks to subscribe to it.


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: Khaled Omar <en= g.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

Jordi= ,

We ar= e not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives me t= he right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs and = with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those who are not interested for now, but don't keep alw= ays stop the discussion like that, there are many people who are willing to= represent themselves and share thoughts.

Khaled

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ &= lt;jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

Yo= u can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop creati= ng unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep par= ticipating in other more relevant works.

&n= bsp;

I = will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on.

&n= bsp;

Yo= u need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is perf= ect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific case, you a= re wasting people time instead of reading all the information that is there to tell you how to contribute. Many peop= le tried to help you in the right direction, including myself when I was se= rgeant-at-arms, and you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested i= n understanding it.


Regards,

Jordi

 <= /p>

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

De: v6ops <v6ops-bo= unces@ietf.org> en nombre de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com= >
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

I'm n= ot repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are many cha= nges that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to say, = where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regarding this discussion?

Best Regards

Khaled Omar

 

From: Warren Kumari <warr= en@kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at= 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <eng= .khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

  

The protocol is under development, but does this mean= s that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice= versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 

 

We already have multiple transition tec= hnologies -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in your prop= osal. 

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-top= ic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the same for the V6= OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

 

I understand that you b= elieve that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any supp= ort for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be f= rustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going  to change that.

 

W

 

 

 

Khaled

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

&n= bsp;

 

&n= bsp;

On= Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and a= sked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations= (v6ops@ietf.org). = I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this = list.

&n= bsp;

This is very true -- it = is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS cha= rter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6MA= N *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this is off-topic indicate= s that the IETF doesn't want to work on this..

 

W

&n= bsp;

--= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

&n= bsp;

--=

I = don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in t= he first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf


 

--

I don't think the execu= tion is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf

_______________________= ________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--_000_HE1PR0402MB29374616D2935B9E15534A08AEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 15:06:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC94212870E for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uatw5Tzi5AVO for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65E261277C8 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:06:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1542495991; x=1543100791; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=VoZkqunRk8ql+2wPuPvszE iadBCxmGT/I8YkjU6A4Ik=; b=SjbSwihPLkoq7ZWtQDBAxUJryZa64EfYmnpFOI j1LrF7NkV+ip7G2N09O0SOuazDhIrTha0Jlhsi7lUc1EDHJD3pNgxwIOeBpqG9NV LNeieEdaPUvyYFcw+90jKOw+OeDRsqhYPlimgTt2PKz38/Jbh6g3Eogv+pgZ/Bmj fFNnQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:06:31 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:06:30 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.130] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005983269.msg for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:06:29 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:c93a:e455:371f:ff29 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.130] X-MDArrival-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:06:29 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=185925af61=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.4.181110 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:06:25 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Khaled Omar , Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: <60EC8E29-3308-4822-9396-A14B2AC4D57F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter References: <78c52356-7d3e-21cc-ca3e-5e237fb4d55d@kit.edu> <35BBA13C-99A4-4C6F-AA86-36CEAD0E7C57@steffann.nl> <6BB2FA5C-64A8-4856-955D-6BA21DC23C2F@gmail.com> <0AECA19F-8C28-4FC7-9135-0E9F3692C01D@gmail.com> <31880F17-1335-4DDD-9767-B41DE4369B19@gmail.com> <973B856E-1919-47C1-BA5B-311AB5B05E55@consulintel.es> <906F4279-FBB8-43C3-AFBA-1BC3E6201B3D@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3625344385_1233571363" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:06:37 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3625344385_1233571363 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable It is public on the charter topics, which is not the case. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:51 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 This list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more contr= ibutions expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then = if no more to add then it will be the end of the discussion. Khaled From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 I=E2=80=99ve not heard a single voice telling that this work should be in t= his list or 6man, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is o= ut of scope. =20 You=E2=80=99re asking where to discuss it, if you think there is other peop= le interested, create your own email list and ask those folks to subscribe = to it. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 Jordi, We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion l= ike that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and= share thoughts. Khaled=20 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. =20 I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. =20 You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=E2=80=99m not saying= is perfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific cas= e, you are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that = is there to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in th= e right direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you ke= ep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar =20 From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter=20 =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar w= rote: Hi Warren, =20 The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? =20 =20 We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal.=20 Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him.= =20 =20 I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. =20 W =20 =20 =20 Khaled =20 From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker Cc: Khaled Omar ; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker wrot= e: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar wr= ote: >=20 > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic elsewhere. Th= e same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentl= e with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn= 't belong on this list. =20 This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. =20 The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. =20 W =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf =20 --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3625344385_1233571363 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

It is public on the charter topics, w= hich is not the case.


Regards,=

= Jordi

 

 <= /p>

 

De: Khaled Omar <eng.khale= d.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 201= 8, 23:51
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, JORDI PAL= ET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: IPv6 Operation= s <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to t= he v6ops Charter

 

This list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more cont= ributions expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then= if no more to add then it will be the end of the discussion.

Khaled

From: JORD= I PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday,= November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
= Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance t= o the v6ops Charter

 

I=E2=80=99ve n= ot heard a single voice telling that this work should be in this list or 6m= an, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is out of scope.

 

You=E2=80=99re asking where to discuss = it, if you think there is other people interested, create your own email li= st and ask those folks to subscribe to it.


Regards,

Jordi

 =

 

 

De: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=C3=A1= bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35
Para: Warren Kumari <warr= en@kumari.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es><= br>CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: = [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

Jordi,

We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think t= he IETf gives me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the= relevant WGs and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be igno= red by those who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the= discussion like that, there are many people who are willing to represent t= hemselves and share thoughts.

Khaled

<= /div>

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren K= umari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix re= levance to the v6ops Charter

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'>You can= create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop creating un= necessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep particip= ating in other more relevant works.

 =

I = will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on.

 

You need to learn how IETF works, we like= it or not (I=E2=80=99m not saying is perfect, and indeed we can do it much= better), but in this specific case, you are wasting people time instead of= reading all the information that is there to tell you how to contribute. M= any people tried to help you in the right direction, including myself when = I was sergeant-at-arms, and you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not inte= rested in understanding it.


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

= De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombr= e de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=C3= =A1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Para: Warren Kumari <w= arren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

&= nbsp;

I'm not repeating mysel= f, maybe the core idea is the same but there are many changes that works to= wards solving this problem, I have one more word to say, where can we discu= ss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regarding this discussion?

Best = Regards

= Khaled Omar

&= nbsp;

From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc= : Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix rele= vance to the v6ops Charter

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 P= M Khaled Omar <eng.khaled= .omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

&nb= sp; 

The protocol is under dev= elopment, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate= to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 

&nb= sp;

We already have = multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have not demonstrate= d interest in your proposal. 

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has = said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

 

=

I understand = that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn'= t any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this= must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going&nbs= p; to change that.

 

W

 

 

 

Khaled

 

From: Wa= rren Kumari [mailto:= warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM=
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar= <eng.k= haled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 =

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 1= 2:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:



> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.oma= r@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops cha= rter, so my comment is to work in the host to achieve the last part.
Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the ha= rdest part, in the sense that the common Socket layer is partially implemen= ted in the applications, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to ever= y application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.
Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Wo= rking Group (6man, ipv6@= ietf.org) and asked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true = for IPv6 Operations (v6= ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't k= now your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list.

 

This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly d= oesn't fit in the V6OPS charter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the I= ETF Discuss list have all said that this is off-topic indicates that the IE= TF doesn't want to work on this..

 

W

 =

---------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------
The fact that there is a highway to = hell and a stairway to heaven is an interesting comment on projected traffi= c volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops= mailing list
v6ops@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<= /o:p>


 =

--

I don't think the execution is rel= evant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like = putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having = chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
  &nb= sp;---maf

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:106.2pt'>

 

--

I don't thi= nk the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first = place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expre= ssing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair = of pants.
   ---maf

________________________________= _______________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are = you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IP= v6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be= privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the excl= usive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty autho= rized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this info= rmation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibite= d and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended re= cipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the c= ontents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, i= s strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to = the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<= /o:p>


**************= ********************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the n= ew Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

T= his electronic message contains information which may be privileged or conf= idential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the in= dividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, c= opying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if pa= rtially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be consi= dered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware th= at any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this inf= ormation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibit= ed, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origina= l sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Really?!, OK. ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:06:25 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter It is public on the charter topics, which is not the case. Regards, Jordi De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:51 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter This list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more contr= ibutions expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then = if no more to add then it will be the end of the discussion. Khaled ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter I=92ve not heard a single voice telling that this work should be in this li= st or 6man, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is out of = scope. You=92re asking where to discuss it, if you think there is other people int= erested, create your own email list and ask those folks to subscribe to it. Regards, Jordi De: Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35 Para: Warren Kumari , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter Jordi, We are not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives= me the right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs= and with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those = who are not interested for now, but don't keep always stop the discussion l= ike that, there are many people who are willing to represent themselves and= share thoughts. Khaled ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter You can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop crea= ting unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep p= articipating in other more relevant works. I will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on. You need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is pe= rfect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific case, you= are wasting people time instead of reading all the information that is the= re to tell you how to contribute. Many people tried to help you in the righ= t direction, including myself when I was sergeant-at-arms, and you keep ign= oring everything, or maybe not interested in understanding it. Regards, Jordi De: v6ops en nombre de Khaled Omar Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54 Para: Warren Kumari CC: IPv6 Operations Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter I'm not repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are man= y changes that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to = say, where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regard= ing this discussion? Best Regards Khaled Omar ________________________________ From: Warren Kumari Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:12 PM Khaled Omar > wrote: Hi Warren, The protocol is under development, but does this means that allowing IPv-4 = only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vice versa has no relevanc= e to any of these WGs? We already have multiple transition technologies -- the working groups have= not demonstrated interest in your proposal. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group. Fred has said the same for the V6OPS charter, and I agree with him. I understand that you believe that you have a great idea / solution, but th= ere isn't any support for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know t= hat this must be frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't g= oing to change that. W Khaled From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM To: Fred Baker > Cc: Khaled Omar >; IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar > wrote: > > This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the host t= o achieve the last part. Two comments: 1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application. 2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are. Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and asked you to take yo= ur topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations (v6ops@ietf.org). I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don= 't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this list. This is very true -- it is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly does= n't fit in the V6OPS charter. The fact that V6OPS, 6MAN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that th= is is off-topic indicates that the IETF doesn't want to work on this.. W ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume... _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in= the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --_000_HE1PR0402MB293713DBF3FD6549BB2B3E7CAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Really?!, OK.
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:06:25 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter
 

It is public on the = charter topics, which is not the case.


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

De: Khaled Omar <en= g.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:51
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

This = list is for public use, what this means, it means there are more contributi= ons expected from participants until they finish the discussion, then if no= more to add then it will be the end of the discussion.

Khaled

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ &= lt;jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:42:05 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

I= =92ve not heard a single voice telling that this work should be in this lis= t or 6man, and the chairs of both, had already told you that it is out of s= cope.

&n= bsp;

Yo= u=92re asking where to discuss it, if you think there is other people inter= ested, create your own email list and ask those folks to subscribe to it.


Regards,

Jordi

 <= /p>

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

De: Khaled Omar <en= g.khaled.omar@outlook.com>
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 23:35
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

Jordi= ,

We ar= e not discussing on the IETF main mailing list, I think the IETf gives me t= he right to submit a draft and discuss it freely with the relevant WGs and = with the appropriate people, this few e-mails can be ignored by those who are not interested for now, but don't keep alw= ays stop the discussion like that, there are many people who are willing to= represent themselves and share thoughts.

Khaled

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ &= lt;jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:24:35 AM
To: Khaled Omar; Warren Kumari
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

Yo= u can create your own discussion group outside IETF, but please stop creati= ng unnecessary noise in the lists, which only discourage people to keep par= ticipating in other more relevant works.

&n= bsp;

I = will love the chairs to ban you for a long time if you insist going on.

&n= bsp;

Yo= u need to learn how IETF works, we like it or not (I=92m not saying is perf= ect, and indeed we can do it much better), but in this specific case, you a= re wasting people time instead of reading all the information that is there to tell you how to contribute. Many peop= le tried to help you in the right direction, including myself when I was se= rgeant-at-arms, and you keep ignoring everything, or maybe not interested i= n understanding it.


Regards,

Jordi

 <= /p>

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

De: v6ops <v6ops-bo= unces@ietf.org> en nombre de Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com= >
Fecha: s=E1bado, 17 de noviembre de 2018, 22:54
Para: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

I'm n= ot repeating myself, maybe the core idea is the same but there are many cha= nges that works towards solving this problem, I have one more word to say, = where can we discuss this topic if v6ops and 6man have barriers regarding this discussion?

Best Regards

Khaled Omar

 

From: Warren Kumari <war= ren@kumari.net>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:27:52 AM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 a= t 3:12 PM Khaled Omar <en= g.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Warren,

  

The protocol is under development, but does this mea= ns that allowing IPv-4 only hosts to communicate to IPv6-only hosts and vic= e versa has no relevance to any of these WGs?

 

 

We already have multiple transition te= chnologies -- the working groups have not demonstrated interest in your pro= posal. 

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-to= pic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group. Fred has said the same for the V= 6OPS charter, and I agree with him. 

 

I understand that you = believe that you have a great idea / solution, but there isn't any sup= port for this in any of the IETF WGs. I'm sorry - I know that this must be = frustrating for you, but simply repeating yourself isn't going  to change that.

 

W

 

 

 

Khaled

 

From: Warren Kumari [mailto:warren@kumari.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>; IPv6 Operations <<= a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix relevance to the v6ops Charter

&= nbsp;

 

&= nbsp;

O= n Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:28 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

<= br>
> On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com>= wrote:
>
> This is part of the v6ops charter, so my comment is to work in the hos= t to achieve the last part.

Two comments:

1) I wish you luck. Changing the host has been the hardest part, in the sen= se that the common Socket layer is partially implemented in the application= s, so deploying IPv6 has meant a minor change to every application.

2) Hosts are not the topic of v6ops; networks are.

Bob Hinden told you that IPmix is off-topic in the IPv6 Maintenance Working= Group (6man, ipv6@ietf.org) and a= sked you to take your topic elsewhere. The same is true for IPv6 Operations= (v6ops@ietf.org). = I'm trying to be gentle with you, as you clearly don't know your way around. But this topic doesn't belong on this = list.

&= nbsp;

This is very true -- it= is more like 6MAN that V6OPS, but it certainly doesn't fit in the V6OPS ch= arter.

 

The fact that V6OPS, 6M= AN *and* the IETF Discuss list have all said that this is off-topic indicat= es that the IETF doesn't want to work on this..

 

W

&= nbsp;

-= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

<= br clear=3D"all">

&= nbsp;

-= -

I= don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in = the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf


 

--

I don't think the exec= ution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr= et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<= br>    ---maf

______________________= _________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, di= stribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is stric= tly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to= the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

--_000_HE1PR0402MB293713DBF3FD6549BB2B3E7CAEDE0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 15:52:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668CC130DE2 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYdvZeu1ozCQ for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06BB51276D0 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 15:52:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DABD61BC37 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:52:27 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:52:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:52:38 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: >=20 > simon, >=20 > The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction = between this and the link you suggested. So tell me - when fed a "0" bit, which "0" is the expander expected to = use ? For a bit, there are only two states - not 10 shades of off and 10 = shades of on - but just off or on, or "0" or "1". So 5 of such bits can = store precisely 32 different values - no more, no less. You are clearly either really really ignorant of simple fundamental = basics, or a complete troll - or both ! From nobody Sat Nov 17 16:22:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF8D130DC0 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WlQqgpAXFEZi for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092070084.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.70.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10AE512F1A5 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NLn+NEtaJaT+JxEpFd6USOk+Pk5EZG0x0+cBjo/pToM=; b=PSEkCXZ5sQ++cknnmhYUgZUJ0LHLocf7UdQxRfvYfveqzjLi85E2mMR2OlSSiUxbdcUcbEFjyLy4LBBcTfCkV7TRjL2SsBK5DcuWisMpGQi5hIXcDp7TXe7eP/eEdWfI0Dx/ZiZ4KgUcsfRXqr0SUrcix6waigdy0lC2XsE1wMhEp2qDagBmt455Q3IDmfkruGDqQjyBUA/4oRLYm+57gIzYtOR9pTloiZcGvXaL29wzHAsXj4zxGoXyULevHaZrVGYyntv/eRSuBU5T/MWgsFI3WfvdEyGb7SYhFA2RI6Av1toKt8RqGLyTpysJqpBhXz/guZnkpX1+ph5JS6t2ig== Received: from AM5EUR03FT031.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.54) by AM5EUR03HT014.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:22:08 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.16.56) by AM5EUR03FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.16.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:22:08 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:22:07 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2Q== Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:22:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:68A4DF2DA27F45D0F529410E1687D23BCA74F1CA0B1B36355B011A162115B008; UpperCasedChecksum:E3624BC777080073AEC3774C4295F009D7AD88F7B7FBDB734035C90A3F9CB7C8; SizeAsReceived:7969; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [uoEUJPq7iz5bg9zxrTJYmq0F2kZMWq0h] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR03HT014; 6:pGbRX2a8gc+64Ec4Ce17u5EDiVlAzreWpooUoqekqMJjtK4CDv7eEydLghUe1TpAcLNEgLkNtx42LXzGWiDj9dbIHE+YLeZEj/joZf8I6gEHrMLmW+6u06wfCaiCwXb8DNi9gtlNJIhPwMhfpYGm4YM4cIvM8F20A/UL3B6Sa0ghk7fUSn5p0l8OBak+bvjUhAYs77d7BOQ95Cav6SvK0rSzxN0YiiSE18XIuies27AKD7otoKJyXh6N9gUuds+7seihWNlYwu+KsI8VWCyHGdW9SNib87466brM8S/dEP00DLwQlbKAPyGdCMfQCDf/xhECOyU0q84P9EWz6LsiHQvpW4i9NB3p+yspFXqY/f2IbCxkyMUIh3kKb5WR4X6xGQs0LY9cM4caynXVlsD+5Re/bcFn4A/5Fbvbx4Z/pKr2QCVWsFu0WH64gujGz/Y1inxMxUQmnGZJLqd7x1b2+A==; 5:K1OHuU8O2/x6Ut1qqnl8+07Pk0WHye4H1ZGD5Lb66PY4geIPt4F4mqY8gUvRNhnRBWeVPBFVVjHE8MjjFWFbaGoxVrNZJmgRRvhHW4fZZrmD+6K6F3xb5LG+vZp2StOw9fRl0xHfBzNsgB0IpebhKqhNJR05gT3ZTcVjt2SF8xM=; 7:scU88zulzulotkN4egojOY+3eldgGMTl+T704QJxGpB0WxvFAxODb1cAnT1dSu72uR4FkyeFqC0YJOF/j6axbUeD1/5vYP3Id+ZxJuSK95spU6bteempI0985uCTJLBy0/JngGLkfZfZxsW5Pz+26g== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT014; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR03HT014: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR03HT014; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR03HT014; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: sUVTp/p4TOTPBJvuEQzh5onLtEBfV7Yx99D6hi3czQ7p6IXRN4pCQVd82C3X+FJQ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB293762667D5B00B276D5D3E5AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 60868d13-fa0e-4730-f9d0-08d64cebe010 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 00:22:07.8136 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT014 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:22:13 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293762667D5B00B276D5D3E5AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 = bits can be represented by 5 bits. For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Khaled ________________________________ From: v6ops on behalf of Simon Hobson Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:52:26 AM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > > simon, > > The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction be= tween this and the link you suggested. So tell me - when fed a "0" bit, which "0" is the expander expected to use = ? For a bit, there are only two states - not 10 shades of off and 10 shades= of on - but just off or on, or "0" or "1". So 5 of such bits can store pre= cisely 32 different values - no more, no less. You are clearly either really really ignorant of simple fundamental basics,= or a complete troll - or both ! _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_HE1PR0402MB293762667D5B00B276D5D3E5AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5 v= oltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of volt= ages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and the= values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits.

For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each 00= 000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0.

Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere.

Khaled
From: v6ops <v6ops-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk><= br> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:52:26 AM
To: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wr= ote:
>
> simon,
>
> The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction= between this and the link you suggested.

So tell me - when fed a "0" bit, which "0" is the expan= der expected to use ? For a bit, there are only two states - not 10 shades = of off and 10 shades of on - but just off or on, or "0" or "= 1". So 5 of such bits can store precisely 32 different values - no more, no less.

You are clearly either really really ignorant of simple fundamental basics,= or a complete troll - or both !

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB293762667D5B00B276D5D3E5AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sat Nov 17 16:46:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665E7130DC0 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oXSGe3lKlzqF for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01olkn0815.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe02::815]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA70D130E10 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:46:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2ykOej7otgt7exDEWKV9zxK5phkgTwNe7eKqGD19tZg=; b=lKfdFJq32jlJH+80m0ShwaOEcGU50Brtxv9Mq2D7m4qErVNUYt08+XXTOk2wMZzoiAGwOFD8UE5mv5pIpqkNiYBQMmWLz5YoawQ0O7GtoHKilsIGAGyozYhT0EIwgzoQXC+pPTk+vEvHC4233cnwhuMDOT0ogEZdDxZKY4DJDJs7pV4rJsfQMci14SJTHkR8NsIrIe033Bl2qS15Zg0MzPG7tgcRzA4YU1worDF+sp+q3xSJnOpF+7kMmHdXVvuWx29p0JkaBYwxUXzLfIt8NT5QG9nU0EGtcb3qna5g5G9JnJ+apgfaZvmiuPOK+uKIiPsYOkgKe9ghAwnUFgoEiQ== Received: from VE1EUR01FT051.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.51) by VE1EUR01HT141.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.3.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:46:37 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.2.56) by VE1EUR01FT051.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.3.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:46:37 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:46:37 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAeR3bQ== Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:46:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:D911D3BE7672AE6ED823EB4BE77F285DC149972BC0FBED2D4CA8AE3E0CDA9F26; UpperCasedChecksum:178280BE24A3B135FB45A450CE7D056354D9CC7332F6111704217AC12E6A05FC; SizeAsReceived:7969; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [DVZHie3FL48L49bGfkWu81/qCNMoprpM] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR01HT141; 6:8cXzzaQBGq6zMBfphqjJBNkd6VsdAYrh7cmT4/xe5D2GSmwc+1ktSMFu4SlnHZPFssYN9aJVIUWuJJsw01w9QcYiGoMpqhaT6fkZdRnabgKifPfj+DJi9fPOFVRybvk2zv+WyIWMpcsY/UZk6zRc+RKRHPJIJFrFdNCFqB3SIFw22gsbT53j/5lcmWdmtbsyzU6SkjT07352lcu/86rFhQVMoBJWfn83kpi/4YeBtKF56KDNZeTe5fQOXB17qAFK10PBVd0NsqvdfpzGxy7uT4616oNR6Nrq79VS8Rtp+thUYf2AJhq0HClDVLa9KgVSDAS7A2ACRijBbP2A1LF6M85zEeEkfW9RsuoY57yWYj4drKnHDBrJ4PB/hkR0gRvmNc/GLRRAz0ryacREvHFaSM4pbs2sr3LPVPka4ZJdS18U/QonGnRJWxghs8AnMhcDox336vK5iyIkcR+oowVJsA==; 5:+9roSOM4E91l7Yjmp33z+c+1XnqDsNg/AwSYK1uzyuoNbMmYk5yiIoN0nTXHB+nrz92DjSVsvSXg2NBA2rCIFTz4N1iudYUYNVVnbwnmYcit95QxjxzfXi7D3WY18x89JPAKf0P9iBALn8plVVPeOLB1W4M7TYBigbtz9I9CFpM=; 7:hDeWLP2CKU5X1X6W6a3o24TeCZ5VKX8xqnqnVrT4OZt1S6XhGZBd2Tgv3GYVvJo7GbVlinJIZ0n6Ada1CPWKF4Wr3hc11G3LsbVcUqqeDazKji1imwrfjQz86sNHrxMbM8eLeWB4pdyPyAcgw7BLHA== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT141; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR01HT141: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT141; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR01HT141; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 9V1qyTGZA7kvWelZR3eX59JWw6MMAGsWWUCjlKlC0+ZtuiPxoZxqk9IIxeV+I9D3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB2937862F6968EB597AC955C3AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 74e08abc-0408-4dac-3f87-08d64cef4c29 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 00:46:37.7009 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT141 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 00:46:47 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937862F6968EB597AC955C3AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any discussion be= cause it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basics of respe= ct. Khaled ________________________________ From: v6ops on behalf of Simon Hobson Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:52:26 AM To: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > > simon, > > The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction be= tween this and the link you suggested. So tell me - when fed a "0" bit, which "0" is the expander expected to use = ? For a bit, there are only two states - not 10 shades of off and 10 shades= of on - but just off or on, or "0" or "1". So 5 of such bits can store pre= cisely 32 different values - no more, no less. You are clearly either really really ignorant of simple fundamental basics,= or a complete troll - or both ! _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937862F6968EB597AC955C3AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any dis= cussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basic= s of respect.

Khaled
From: v6ops <v6ops-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk><= br> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:52:26 AM
To: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com> wr= ote:
>
> simon,
>
> The 0-bit still a 0-bit, and the 1-bit still a 1-bit, no contradiction= between this and the link you suggested.

So tell me - when fed a "0" bit, which "0" is the expan= der expected to use ? For a bit, there are only two states - not 10 shades = of off and 10 shades of on - but just off or on, or "0" or "= 1". So 5 of such bits can store precisely 32 different values - no more, no less.

You are clearly either really really ignorant of simple fundamental basics,= or a complete troll - or both !

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937862F6968EB597AC955C3AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 02:00:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FE01274D0 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:00:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v95yHDBAVAP4 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76EB21286E3 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF8341C40 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:00:20 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B21A41C20; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:00:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 5B6E919BD8; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:00:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:00:20 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Khaled Omar Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Message-ID: <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> References: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:00:29 -0000 Hi, On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basics of respect. Troll level: archwizard. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Sun Nov 18 02:14:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59B81274D0 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7lVkAAM1dZLm for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur02olkn080b.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe07::80b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42CD0127148 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:14:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1lgyaYk023shgW8TQaqQG9falCvUfthOqUtTHKW2j38=; b=WaSfOTlG0G+SYVl6X4buKJ+iMM8ZkKZuNPi+rzyotE2aDESF1mUO92gvvT5ukZ3zytNHiFWBR4m/+WuPeDA/oQ/MO7dbM2WS1oxaRET5EXUKQDMvcqbFhmS5WIT4qJFfJrSbPKiHalGMjN9pLByvKOWD50mWIqMSXHD7jNHh6oE6jmJDhHuDtyhSrvwi9wu8gxV5FzAjhYcgE0YnIbONPb4LGND+zdomZIgZZk/UR5voojZYNPWuQwId9EiMP+g8js3VPBahWgmIC3npM53AGY6p2Thg8YuMWTN84rI45PUjef/adadB8m6qLSIjj3garpIS9UwaJE2odTJL3VKXEg== Received: from VE1EUR02FT059.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.12.53) by VE1EUR02HT066.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.13.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:14:44 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.12.51) by VE1EUR02FT059.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.13.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:14:44 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:14:44 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Gert Doering CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAeR3bQATVpYAAACAxtQ= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:14:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> , <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:AF758E0EFD4F343BC2A5E500CE050313F3F042295A15847AB573BC23EE022E41; UpperCasedChecksum:508799D6C485C62AE310A5FAFC1265A9448C2FAB2FA81DED50984113779726BA; SizeAsReceived:7882; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [oW9DrXqvH5GMr7lbckUvTvCAu6TkkOMS] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT066; 6:vPfrc7G9rct5wo/y4ls8I3mcoPD5RPvpp/qHl9MiNQAyCgtj15g5KS5jk8iv1P2yxNvWEcaQfZUBpsfb2enuU9mIaj1BpK4/NR/iDkEpjLWpXkdLEtRAhcdCMBlViKfaPlE9MRjQ121Z3TqXjz+F9y5hjlXGGMH9sSuCElkNDmv3m1SNtxXYCRbzds44kxow5VTCAxp3RCnnXbl0akkhQgGC52P0pye/JFOqx0maGlzPHIAYRMfYZUo0JRZSpAktFs5UdUUxDFLc0rUFL+Wp5/PAXf8s1mUR2vG4eIFJEg1CgMvCWj0ecaC6Z2yYCITgyfpKF+iqjBxHiOZe9EwqfY3RE4f0hst4JzIoCxUb2Q7xiw1X93eO6/fSwdBxaemnAmGoAODCTEeyNYq8iI0A5F8HVFCsQWf1HfBsMpGsvh94bUzXO/MGKVf0fVYYibSkU/uEMiLXBk6YC18fVaBOKA==; 5:aaWpoUTuk4i9JT7+uJblKzF9rcrccYLCipzqV0sQoYrjoE0OZiSHme2Q0rn4W0ilrHv6iq0pcBB9pv7RqL8WV4vcBOyIG3QszH5OQlfKf1tNcNBgY4N8NH/wSGaSCLyE4iKn0tic4te5Hs+UrpxkqvuhvFVpXw4TL5ccezetqjc=; 7:jORKhmph3hgWzq++pRxoEYyn4rWbLUggjv1P7e2qr5CKyF5UC6+LIBKfH0WzGO2O1EOPj3nPt7F5qoffvs0wQB7Uhh3wDwz9x00AcYS885UAd7L7gyQgPtaFJVZTg0mQ3CQkvyvIYesYr7on3GqdZw== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT066; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR02HT066: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT066; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT066; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Mi54C5vmhKwszAVsFmIy24rWJd+ZGQWmmMUr8h2/g0TwnL2X0e+rHB1MAeA0QESL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB2937024092BDC1DFF9A62A27AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8c5d20ff-be8a-4cb5-81ce-08d64d3ea98d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 10:14:44.6177 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT066 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:14:51 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937024092BDC1DFF9A62A27AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46. ________________________________ From: Gert Doering Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Hi, On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any discussion = because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basics of res= pect. Troll level: archwizard. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937024092BDC1DFF9A62A27AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46.
From: Gert Doering <ge= rt@space.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Hi,

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in an= y discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, = basics of respect.

Troll level: archwizard.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG          &nbs= p;           Vorstand: Se= bastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsich= tsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen          = ;       HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444        = ; USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937024092BDC1DFF9A62A27AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 02:39:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9561286E3 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HEa444fWz25Z for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87EC4127148 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x202so11640312oif.13 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:39:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hsKrpR9508iXa1efwz/+AdOiH4ECvPu+6x5chYQGkCU=; b=DA8M+e++xzNPjbmQxeeks2mdsNkIVxDBVTBb8OnKQgjglrljXr0U1uyR9BlivsmJn3 3EuquF3EW7jwBpug7xI++SUe/IbQdZ8SoNKmEJbMepN2GUf6WsCpsfA5Wd72FtIV5WbD Zk3tZgtqVh7EcS/P1KOjBoFXcHUJ7xOsDuNxKmh7wRUCPlPVzsZOOW9CwaYZfNvOusAa PP/FJey3iNn2LkWDOc8zIygGTo1e3XmUGioySwqVkxgyHWTsqvnMAOZsBmSXAIE+moEB 6sgxyVF1Xttb5LsMbNXaT7ZnxufpAgTnIxJbfwCT6YZjVBkK6sn87vofjrQqFgDyLdTu xETw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hsKrpR9508iXa1efwz/+AdOiH4ECvPu+6x5chYQGkCU=; b=G7TWwAFPsuW7A0uvrOnLmXgWn8oiv/gZF/BF4IrxeTS0eTb9A/+XavUVt9+RnVjVKZ iLK+jgLZBM3gDuFaduTeUpmSYXPqh5NLS6Mbfh6cK3kfBrCj1NUL19jx5EsirPmEi/Ou hIoXZlHFIlhPUFh1nK6eoX3Z7REEuCSVS06Fr7VACPh8m3hakAC5qzC33fqihkWlogdN vsmhZy0D665x7yeVhGkktYQGXy6AePWg2guqQNfCTKpATBTHqdQSzhathHXCrLntOQ2N IY2QrBhuq7sRwpjJI9oiyuuR02zbc0CUju1FeMm0oQpQt3Px8+tj6iMGJv6V62ndqvtx Q7tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKV5a28ETO0H9fE2AAnJkv10R4YoIWaM1RnoNad270bn9UzwOF3 JWDaUcxv1HnoCyO7oEabyH0KL4g5gJPs2ilZvsU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cRIPe2JnEHsPC6doOExDj4MDEQlFQA8waRBUubARdDxVi5IMsANfrPerlwOKIlgcCIcDFtDz7WAmx0MiXESnw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:2807:: with SMTP id 7mr4902069oix.7.1542537559552; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:39:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 21:39:07 +1100 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Gert Doering , Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a388c057aee0349" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:39:22 -0000 --0000000000004a388c057aee0349 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Please respect the working group charter. Your work may have value, however it isn't relevant here. Thanks, Mark. On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:15 Khaled Omar More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits > (requires hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, > we can use nat46/dns46. > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gert Doering > *Sent:* Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar > *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > Hi, > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > > Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any discussion > because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basics of > respect. > > Troll level: archwizard. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael > Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --0000000000004a388c057aee0349 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please respect the working group charter.

Your work may have value, however it isn'= t relevant here.

Thanks,=
Mark.

On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:15 Khaled Omar <eng.khaled.omar@outlook.com wrote:
More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46.
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
=C2=A0
Hi,

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used i= n any discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses = it, basics of respect.

Troll level: archwizard.

Gert Doering
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Vorstand: S= ebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Aufsich= tsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 US= t-IdNr.: DE813185279
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op= s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--0000000000004a388c057aee0349-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 02:55:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A14129619 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:55:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G4-IBuiXFDcq for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092070083.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.70.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AD9B127148 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 02:55:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=B6LKIj5MlQhim8lDE9TrjwZ+Wq72XlF1Mo/2UPA2jjA=; b=WOKO+L37JyoDvUljLoS/BlgJtv4i/xoooedM80vIkk3LGGrNcOp2I4YgtPypZ3QtpY2c9rjWj4ygwsS2wDaz3Ih+g5ZPotRaGF9Bqy6IsMIfXQEKSPd5dxUxwNgUWyf9LOQVwMzKJZaikAYFpoy2eFQHXQKTOZTo+9k7cBqjdKwDC8Ekisi5RS3GbopF8vbGWMcJEk+16IQkcp8ujaj4t4sGnWO63olB/rqTpky8AWN7stfMiPXrR3pQxytagz6oQLhu7BerLuycEzrcx1eq+9DPFmO9CRdkbVP1UW7IMaifCn+Rp5blEDBWWn5eoNQAWoOPaoddiWQp80945TVJlw== Received: from VE1EUR03FT034.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.58) by VE1EUR03HT120.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.19.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:55:21 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.18.55) by VE1EUR03FT034.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:55:21 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:55:20 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Mark Smith CC: Gert Doering , Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAeR3bQATVpYAAACAxtQAANn6gAAAkQOA Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:55:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:482A9E73DC329E65B90269F819714FE3B8C347956901143B9355C5A487FA02D5; UpperCasedChecksum:739908F672268FAFAB05C38C555515604DF702CE1A65C7D6B90804326CD05231; SizeAsReceived:8122; Count:47 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [WTQOfYthKh1GrxN2IYbanwSiNfY2+H6b] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR03HT120; 6:3p5FkFYCHx/4BEI8ym/1M8rtoAovkTeDOyOdzB4tkx62rF5z8R7BdJKJJ2H0tk47hnAcmiti4nLi9CrmZXr1VNCfFiQv/baOw1JqTs4fzEEVHwvtmSjhWuWUXSszj6Q6TqUCzb8uKRccAA+7bNAH38X142ygzbl6558I5DNRkjpWaaRGYp5xZfs2KNod2UsqGGWHwAf+TcxxcDV62rG5ciQJf3lx7UPZkxZWn2BlColMTGqm0tM7Jz0bEPfuS+gc95IMghc71QHk0sAltBYinUs0U84JLO+DoeQze4NiQkr1lsOpnlOA51uOiRX9ZhMH/ZPEuGf+knSMHnRvgQzGFUPJTnKek1LNmuqSGSgFjWWgSlHKXT4T3S8zxCjIEdlFn/urqWdVXIHvbnoXI+iJByHqb8y+64DItZLgYrCL0xHrRju3FfmKh4//+5V/vHzgkZznNmt6yj4B88rMjO8eWA==; 5:e/VmbH2mgKv777b98VdUfxqEYmhEcQpYLI+QH/GOeyUDLkaUO8RQrTpUUUm9FKhYuOUzC8GUcMffX5jBQeGtgQw8DSIqHQfa+HU14IPI6ClFvNIn8M099l6TSojiQIL/8bsStrdN9IYY16fp2ZLvNO9y/sJ7ULLJRX+SOWDQeYQ=; 7:PsJGYtQjS4pFj+8lkYMkRA07/FlhkjJ5i5QDWMP/YdNBGk6PM3LaOSqcF+XUlvTJeUD6YlrE8ZQCW+sFAIWotEh1iWbUVixbX5XLL1ZJzei3BACGz/ObMN9/wLWTn7tU9bJv5pVc+nCr6h/tNVyinA== x-incomingheadercount: 47 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT120; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1EUR03HT120: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT120; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR03HT120; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: jFOLz8T657SKBjNNh7Fba8NzCBnU73Vgs6bQzXi1Afl04+KqYwp867SyjSLd6wda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0402MB2937C8C83893BC704A56B851AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9f1d3a4a-b3f6-4c94-8d06-08d64d445572 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 10:55:20.5278 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR03HT120 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:55:27 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937C8C83893BC704A56B851AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do respect the charter, it contradicts with what people says here about w= hat i'm doing. Khaled ________________________________ From: Mark Smith Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:39:07 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Gert Doering; Simon Hobson; v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Please respect the working group charter. Your work may have value, however it isn't relevant here. Thanks, Mark. On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:15 Khaled Omar wrote: More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46. ________________________________ From: Gert Doering > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Hi, On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: > Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any discussion = because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, basics of res= pect. Troll level: archwizard. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_HE1PR0402MB2937C8C83893BC704A56B851AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do respect the charter, it contradicts with what people says here about w= hat i'm doing.

Khaled
From: Mark Smith <markzz= zsmith@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:39:07 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Gert Doering; Simon Hobson; v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Please respect the working group charter.

Your work may have value, however it isn't relevant here.=

Thanks,
Mark.

More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46.
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
 
Hi,

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in an= y discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, = basics of respect.

Troll level: archwizard.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG          &nbs= p;           Vorstand: Se= bastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsich= tsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen          = ;       HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444        = ; USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op= s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--_000_HE1PR0402MB2937C8C83893BC704A56B851AEDF0HE1PR0402MB2937_-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 03:04:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A59130DC2 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:04:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tyLYgIvCnZuW for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27E1012D7F8 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id wAIB4kiI086723 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:04:46 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local To: Khaled Omar Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:04:45 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:04:52 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote on 18/11/2018 00:22: > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is > 5 voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values > of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, > etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, > etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. > > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and each > 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. > > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Right, I see what you're proposing: fractional voltage to encode multiple intermediate values between 0 and 1. Nice! Could I make a helpful suggestion? It would probably be easier if you could write an internet draft to encode fractional ipv4 addresses. So instead of having just 192.168.1.0 and 192.168.1.1, you could have a range of values in-between, e.g. 192.168.1.(1/2) or 192.168.1.(7/13). You'd need to work on the notation a bit because we're already using "/" to denote netmask, but I think the idea is sound, and it would solve a lot of problems with ipv4 deployment as well as providing a foundation for full ipv4 / ipv6 interoperability. I.e. you'd solve two problems at once. It would be a lot easier to handle this fractional idea at a higher level rather than trying to encode it at the electrical signaling level (see RFC 1925, Section 6). The reason for this is that you'd probably need to make some changes at the electrical interface layer on IP routers to allow your signaling differentiation idea to work, and that could present some logistical problems. Also, if you could make your proposal more generic by allowing floating point ipv4 addressing, that would probably be an advantage, but I don't think it would be necessary to go this far. Fractional would be more than enough. Nick From nobody Sun Nov 18 03:59:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80159130DD6 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCcoG8tdVvL9 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092069012.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.69.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99DD212F295 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 03:59:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=oC4qIHEmURlNadOBzstyIr/+IQ2nYPXs5Iekq0avjrE=; b=Y5ERQc+/YL9WH3fpUC1fAo3/XxSIbUuU+gQCpfWnnjZMcVUKhsGLrSvy6AEXFVnkzg4QfyG7hjwo4SlLqClZBMuyW8RMGdxqzNYg2KJ99e+uRN3Ucjrzvk5jgYIgLPpNOpy1QbKbTb1UtSdZrUbAK/ZgIWZU2CBUVhk46coco8gz+45Y4Q6nHl29jkAwj65UuBxA0Ls5LJO8LVPYgFWedbXaUdiWgetiAqho5skGQiq2Dnrygkyu0ZNLTzFL9FMeMlCf9iaNkiUb9Pj4qZrDLBIz8FZNhXEbJhltAYkFD2+X+zWoDwUPsmpMjKaZSdyaamsNRdkaunf7+iyFP5f/TQ== Received: from AM5EUR02FT038.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.52) by AM5EUR02HT099.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:59:00 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.51) by AM5EUR02FT038.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:59:00 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:58:59 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Nick Hilliard CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Simon Hobson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QAWcYmAAAGwx5A= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:58:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:73E2545269AA42053D486D59D2C6D6E4F710DBB8BB45664143BCA2C748755D38; UpperCasedChecksum:8C88440A0524E6DA6E1688D8EF37358E396A1724E661FC39841D72DEA410FF3B; SizeAsReceived:8121; Count:46 x-tmn: [1gFaMnM80dx3xmLA5UZD9E9g++BBhSZ4] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT099; 6:pAluS8EE2nw3pgqs6/6TvY88F7q08+ZASm+az9+O8xoPxEwbbTmJU7tLU1lwEBAssZVwA4VjQwQj1KchOMu6TtFZqjh6zvKuxme32LbYIjZFlWoVmFFS8rXxQ+zGtpbIVOx+YMq6xHSf1qN5nQ8Llyrl1l+cUk0U6Pmw1vpewCQuKvnlHCXZ5qxMd8RavXi/557Ao1BdMqdESgWmSnsOuIgTQMAEJHgZsXHzztSrqurPDG73H5vAu2lmKEeMm/lf3jus/QhygsEvToy7TatDBWawpUMWAhWzw6a1dotLaOSmYHePJrpPFEaG9z1prXQoOPFLFD/QqdckEAKJOve8a6RkrqDRmNi6dHtgfS/LZzclYZY9PWRCWoWQM7S9WJE/pGs3gDQglA6iE7wg9DbJdiX69FjGOCdn0OoY5WmyJy07IRAis1iPidzYBjKbUgcNDYGMC8r/7bh2VF1wUw67PA==; 5:PWAmI1/RTglvGASZGogD2QyX/AEsSZuYb0+kOt0RknY/D6wB2Wel5dCFZtCJMNOgMYdmpL5tbG/pFwPvsld9dx/rw17G0IsH68QhciIg18nVb+0uV7VxpL5PDHCtmVy0E69qzDxbaFvuHWOTKvri46hEYqXdVHleRUb4EZeqtio=; 7:XMgpeTQe3N2LDDRhY5NMqpDU4n5ev34W8RO/gfQe5s9t8u5JtPwVVSQNnRtlaX54TI+jBw5RCkGJpDN5SlT9z/PjDIZ67YJKrVyEZul3rICa3m5ioFKzSkoeaS4s5jMXwgODL1Fhp4Jw3FuHxXv54A== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101475)(1601125500)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT099; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM5EUR02HT099: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT099; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT099; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: D0IEksAjbluQoyeIChQKy1y8LDd8Be2GVtKeK5OK46rPNFqy2mfPF9YiNrHqrUbB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 59b229c4-3a07-45f2-2315-08d64d4d39f9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 11:58:59.9072 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT099 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:59:05 -0000 Sounds interesting, it looks like a work that requires free time. Thanks, Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Nick Hilliard [mailto:nick@foobar.org]=20 Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:05 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote on 18/11/2018 00:22: > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1=20 > is > 5 voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values=20 > of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2,=20 > etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2,=20 > etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. >=20 > For example, the output can be 00000 for many number of inputs, and=20 > each > 00000 has a different value of voltage that represents each 0. >=20 > Now it is very clear, looking forward for more discussions anywhere. Right, I see what you're proposing: fractional voltage to encode multiple i= ntermediate values between 0 and 1. Nice! Could I make a helpful suggestion? It would probably be easier if you coul= d write an internet draft to encode fractional ipv4 addresses. So instead = of having just 192.168.1.0 and 192.168.1.1, you could have a range of value= s in-between, e.g. 192.168.1.(1/2) or 192.168.1.(7/13).=20 You'd need to work on the notation a bit because we're already using "/"=20 to denote netmask, but I think the idea is sound, and it would solve a lot = of problems with ipv4 deployment as well as providing a foundation for full= ipv4 / ipv6 interoperability. I.e. you'd solve two problems at once. It would be a lot easier to handle this fractional idea at a higher level r= ather than trying to encode it at the electrical signaling level (see RFC 1= 925, Section 6). The reason for this is that you'd probably need to make s= ome changes at the electrical interface layer on IP routers to allow your s= ignaling differentiation idea to work, and that could present some logistic= al problems. Also, if you could make your proposal more generic by allowin= g floating point ipv4 addressing, that would probably be an advantage, but = I don't think it would be necessary to go this far. Fractional would be mo= re than enough. Nick From nobody Sun Nov 18 04:29:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED85212426A for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 04:29:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VICmfIXVQaz for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 04:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27318130DCD for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 04:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id z33so25262089otz.11 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 04:29:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=woWOpL2vLoEZIk7bOUUYi4HhhBh2puG6UyTYuKuEYfA=; b=pLQuqviy919ctYt3/gB4qb6re9WHWogDtJzuqF18DBt/YwhJ7SEdv+8eQCVBxtk68Q xjnVFiEQfbX/QgV84gcKit6ETlPJohzO6IhG5ZlDW0Og5IuiDS0XtC0fPZ1ijBTfVA3S It9zjFoVBB3YDiCnpx2ma3/oeF+qtpWmLjo+VYVwRkn/5Vhds2+3chdhA1xKt0KOISuK +hP8gILorQZASdo94B8YH9e5eQLBhLFztBmrqttwrlqO9h7kYggojPCrLL6o0sPQhxkL jJSnMG7o2C83FFOz3Hc5FH0Sce05ExXldthOSvzKmHRlsnqhM8716xrCJEDzh76Yeh21 Swvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=woWOpL2vLoEZIk7bOUUYi4HhhBh2puG6UyTYuKuEYfA=; b=gb0xP9UqJVy45gxSFhPX4gDITBYxqpzLPiDOZPX2gjLc+N1pRRAWRmtmFJ1NcAN6l4 o0MwSv5uz4Rnjn7Ou5YKpznj2pIxWRLtXVKJ8ntO29gk4prkPZwn8o5azZv5R1vXzAu4 9K/cG+9w3AcPGzIF/JQWhXWlPAGFiC5KQBC7oj8ceEEMT/nDCo2wAePDAzgYjeixIUjr Or8EJ3MFU0GiBHry3CWxpqrURZd9M4ND1LQVuJzngjCc55KKCODCDZm8Cogjt9ACLoOK WMamHKs8rAYR3Q56bV4HCpsBOxeQrUn/JbrVGFly0kH+EqebUQ6osh15Hs9C/UXJOVba euvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLqNOHLxMAvZLSPOU3FIfsAzadSN/LDYCHnUR0Y5bhmJsdGT+Th k+4MGjcnskEmf5bRBQstboj2a8q2OHP8L8361EY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cKvV0Vs8efqqbsC8HQRE3bdn06uG+FFRZe4S1W1mnZ5zFXhcJviKxXiyklGA6MQe6//8nmzwgRffA2jlrDZj8= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7059:: with SMTP id x25mr11328925otj.35.1542544164283; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 04:29:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <20181118100020.GD72840@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 23:29:12 +1100 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Gert Doering , Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f669e9057aef8c07" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:29:27 -0000 --000000000000f669e9057aef8c07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" You are not respecting the charter. Others responding to you aren't either. On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:55 Khaled Omar I do respect the charter, it contradicts with what people says here about > what i'm doing. > > Khaled > ------------------------------ > *From:* Mark Smith > *Sent:* Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:39:07 PM > *To:* Khaled Omar > *Cc:* Gert Doering; Simon Hobson; v6ops@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. > > Please respect the working group charter. > > Your work may have value, however it isn't relevant here. > > Thanks, > Mark. > > On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:15 Khaled Omar wrote: > >> More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits >> (requires hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, >> we can use nat46/dns46. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Gert Doering >> *Sent:* Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM >> *To:* Khaled Omar >> *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson >> *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. >> >> Hi, >> >> On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote: >> > Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used in any >> discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses it, >> basics of respect. >> >> Troll level: archwizard. >> >> Gert Doering >> -- NetMaster >> -- >> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >> >> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael >> Emmer >> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann >> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) >> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > --000000000000f669e9057aef8c07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You are not respecting the charter. Others respondin= g to you aren't either.

I do respect the charter, it contradicts with what people says here about w= hat i'm doing.

Khaled
From:= Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:39:07 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: Gert Doering; Simon Hobson; v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
=C2=A0
Please respect the working group charter.

Your work may have value, however it isn't relevant h= ere.

Thanks,
Mark.

On Sun., 18 Nov. 2018, 21:15 Khaled Omar <eng.= khaled.omar@outlook.com wrote:
More accurate description, anway we can compress 32bits into 5bits (require= s hardware changes), so when IPv6 can be represented in (20)bits, we can us= e nat46/dns46.
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:20 PM
To: Khaled Omar
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; Simon Hobson
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification.
=C2=A0
Hi,

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:46:37AM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Regarding using the word "troll", it shouldn't be used i= n any discussion because it reflects a bad image about the person who uses = it, basics of respect.

Troll level: archwizard.

Gert Doering
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Vorstand: S= ebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Aufsich= tsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 US= t-IdNr.: DE813185279
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/v6ops
--000000000000f669e9057aef8c07-- From nobody Sun Nov 18 06:04:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FAF1286E7 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:04:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ENAGe-Ia-72x for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CD86126CC7 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.thehobsons.co.uk (Simons-MacBookPro.thehobsons.co.uk [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DA8D1A071; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:04:32 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:04:31 +0000 Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> To: Khaled Omar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:04:41 -0000 Khaled Omar wrote: > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 = is 5 voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the = values of voltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, = 0.2, etc and the values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, = 5.2, etc, so the 32 bits can be represented by 5 bits. Apart from your selection of voltages being very error prone, such = encoding methods already exist in things like high speed modems and = digital TV broadcasting - that screeching as a 56k modem connects is = testing the connection to see which analogue levels get passed through = reliably and selecing the encoding table to use only the unique ones). = However, not a single ethernet port on the planet could deal with it = (the signalling is based on transitions between states rather than = voltages), and not a single router anywhere could pass the information = through. Realistically, all you are proposing is to replace ethernet with = something with multiple levels per symbol - but internally all the = digital handling would still need the full non-compressed bits because = digital systems still work with digital bits. But I think that you know all this this and are just trolling. I will = not be commenting further and the way you're going you'll end up in a = few killfiles. From nobody Sun Nov 18 06:38:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80CDA12D4E9 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:38:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outlook.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhK7d05y6gVu for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur01olkn080d.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe1f::80d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A60A61277BB for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:38:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Fz4HnhNUtYdGbDaU7ohOP4jkBEOTH7rlSNZeX5DGq68=; b=dHBr6zqH8dQNDklS+bkmFqVJj0WaH6B5aV5dxFHnf+q72Tj+2/qlEosAbm9HQ+ywn7ZZfAEUcog9KiKCZZF1R45FNGdUdIDTK2xlui+04mR3sJ2i/WqwEnzenygbkJ4C/wy3GJ1opbzCwrkA5IJCNlRpDaiR+TrjGEKjEBCcLpbND1iaW8PZxPkHkj6MqID2Es/pMkKK/6hPtz/VoOr4nUlD0by1VqfQ+nL1uyBfvNy3nMgduJ+YB4pmAMHguurpqw3ToD1kLX1m2fjtPoXYg24Tkz9lkeg0rEHVHA4qYm1L7wJ1b9EBfjv9APMnpvp5KWZ7eMv8KhZIaC50X0PIjA== Received: from HE1EUR01FT020.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.56) by HE1EUR01HT084.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:38:02 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01FT020.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1339.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:38:02 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70]) by HE1PR0402MB2937.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::952e:86d2:1940:cb70%10]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.048; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:38:02 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Simon Hobson CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Thread-Index: AdR8l8XrkWYQIRm0SnCkDX0uAnUGxQARz2kAAAFzC6AAAINHgAAAWXmwAAEFmYAAZF9cwAAQxfkAAADZoRcAAH6WAAAANfNhAAJcFgAAAQly2QAcuMaAAADHjQA= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:38:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3F1AA528-8933-4E6A-ABA9-8235DDB82C23@thehobsons.co.uk> <3ED391F1-0707-4F7A-BDD1-6C5BB2EC617C@thehobsons.co.uk> <8A8A368F-7DD8-4C5D-BA3A-B53F2004F663@thehobsons.co.uk> <4571803E-F154-443D-8400-5D240A1F0898@thehobsons.co.uk> <05A5E413-9985-4C63-8360-EA27BD8D7E1B@thehobsons.co.uk> <22CC1C4E-E59F-4364-B578-5A0BAEE47D1B@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:3C0B8BDF6052ECFA5A5D91CC47F6270779AB582FBE93AD62E7A7DF05C0D269C3; UpperCasedChecksum:F1FFE7C5F04588FF8A384EDE7D42B04BC43314167AB25060823D8E6321317EB4; SizeAsReceived:8093; Count:46 x-tmn: [LGBlHcOgkhwZXQvJxSAkAM9ADN1W7BkI] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT084; 6:xIn6UF2WwPRQ92PgNloV0vdhXxKMAvDGBZe66Tyzbjue7NhPZ4KbKTCb20EZBZSFsZhzMVe/hc7f9nPHprKTYSUgO+qrknEoGgOUmc7ynI5KbNWwlOt9lC/v9gZGJGqL/DkNtB6oLqAjZuL1Q6veAWaZ6JdhCaDn5DaVCvKusiuEaSxVzcOMSoMru8rwV/+kkgCxzVjmPoc4WonNzCZqbckMc/hN8oByK2WnwVYuTAOPLCutUA2BFcn84t1YW4Jou3EOmgwzdCFpPRcxoAUz74fFJezC7HAWCbmgsoxseSi6D2GKb7aUHXwFh4o8K7Qhm6AcaN1s2+9P8mfW5wkW8l7Ap4HGU0mh2cm+H6d5vr2vvRXaBoVjhJRSBifhMYHdeJQKeVJpsGw0XF67jN7Iyu/ekjeFNHnfYTwNwOOx2gCsJGU1NpNOvibqvsvSvB5qUxKKvd4c8Mk6tTdYZdZ69g==; 5:YQ1+CcgUJA1e44r0/SfrOjFbilEQxAWB4f1ATxKI9aqM0eLYg1kJpv5joBctYUystNqA1bSnFpuIVb65wA8jwHvR+Pur57Ov7jiDi0l5252C+sHon8iSMdT/bcTdhA04tn62Qn5VBRrECScmcZVQVErd+eBzKfsMFp0MkQwL/O0=; 7:EVf2cv1PEO2GUJEwmwBlNztI8ImRj7+mFAr32EFwb0qtT2c3a2RGAH6n6iKqo8IkKvK3TixUj19wIX6IIZXTPeWc8cEd4uZpXHvbcpz4pt43Df7zLlI5i2DYmBDhh0zde413LnH4EAvF7pw1pN003A== x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390098)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT084; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1EUR01HT084: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT084; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT084; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: WEZ0K9HTslA8tuTynswlLeFHo2E4UHLvgUsxY4hf29nR+Vt8dmyEDuvW52pbtXnZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f1d967ae-e2f6-4f2e-5bc0-08d64d6371c3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: dd759f05-a917-4aa0-a2f5-4cc35c50e0c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2018 14:38:02.4022 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT084 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:38:08 -0000 > Apart from your selection of voltages being very error prone, such encodi= ng methods already exist in things like high speed modems and digital TV br= oadcasting - that screeching as a 56k modem connects is testing the connect= ion to see which analogue levels get passed through reliably and selecting = the encoding table to use only the unique ones). However, not a single ethe= rnet port on the planet could deal with it (the signalling is based on tran= sitions between states rather than voltages), and not a single router anywh= ere could pass the information through. > Realistically, all you are proposing is to replace ethernet with somethin= g with multiple levels per symbol - but internally all the digital handling= would still need the full non-compressed bits because digital systems stil= l work with digital bits. You didn't add something new, I mentioned that this way of encoding require= s hardware changes that need to be standardized. Again, the information still represented in digital bits, but the one bit c= an hold different values that can be interpreted differently. > But I think that you know all this this and are just trolling. I will not= be commenting further and the way you're going you'll end up in a few kill= files. Not the first time you try to threaten by not commenting further, it is me = who will not respond back to you because you will make me use the word trol= l for describing you, be careful because your head started to touch the gro= und. -----Original Message----- From: Simon Hobson [mailto:linux@thehobsons.co.uk]=20 Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 4:05 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPmix version 01 modification. Khaled Omar wrote: > Look, electronically, what is 0 and what is 1, 0 is 0 voltage, and 1 is 5= voltage, below 5 voltage is 0, 5 or over voltage is 1, so the values of vo= ltages that can represent a 0 are listed on the file 0, 0.1, 0.2, etc and t= he values of voltages that can represent a 1 are 5, 5.1, 5.2, etc, so the 3= 2 bits can be represented by 5 bits. Apart from your selection of voltages being very error prone, such encoding= methods already exist in things like high speed modems and digital TV broa= dcasting - that screeching as a 56k modem connects is testing the connectio= n to see which analogue levels get passed through reliably and selecing the= encoding table to use only the unique ones). However, not a single etherne= t port on the planet could deal with it (the signalling is based on transit= ions between states rather than voltages), and not a single router anywhere= could pass the information through. Realistically, all you are proposing is to replace ethernet with something = with multiple levels per symbol - but internally all the digital handling w= ould still need the full non-compressed bits because digital systems still = work with digital bits. But I think that you know all this this and are just trolling. I will not b= e commenting further and the way you're going you'll end up in a few killfi= les. From nobody Sun Nov 18 09:52:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A3A129BBF; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmhr_muaf4lT; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 047BE126CC7; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id p17so19712957lfh.4; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0iyizqmenNgURCmQKFe3sS4EWTTAZubQaV1HA4ojOGs=; b=gUNwYfK/hCxNvgBWucNADqaJjmYCgafv7mXjf1HgCrYwhDyB+CCOdbNY+VxhG/FKHW 99KiogL39tOY4IGrVh2GZB57QLqhpLPvZuQEf0guTLkaZJ3a/LkUDJWPNrlQ21B0Xq4B PD7oNofwJfYDDjq/BEl9d6rMtujkucesEAzYXx+a3mBDnlXqKDx+SZNZjqsd7HLTLf8k g5o2xoLYz3B5uoBP5WHPpmY8eQkYULlHMXStWjUPQWKZerkEw+IqaD7AAsFrVcPrtsm2 SzN7vQM48G2rTh0RaUH/eK6j1JELgLA8YaI8dEZ68MMkxUocvK6h+bV9BChGqwVzlkhl 4P5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0iyizqmenNgURCmQKFe3sS4EWTTAZubQaV1HA4ojOGs=; b=XrfUMdkgYPjLMevWEsEFW7PfDU5ErWniycI1MBPziyE9se1vuNwe+aV8TkNgTMNNXC K4vePKNY816yXbJLbTNs4xD/HcqVRjADO1/rDZW7P0q5mFEq9ljsfFmSEqyuNq9S0gT/ 7eTYoN8SxQdeVA2PpU0bG+g+VjLMj0jvpOrUPVmKvtOE7RIVhX8iJzRo6J7R+BE9xFGn OPHDnM7wPCx7zJhm61WVeCGHWUyEr8BYqBZtGbrJMUCVoEb48Fr8caC7uNUGwc4hNCC1 Wfi8x8cGB+g7raKKmzfmjUfJFZz8tIWIKqRsgcGB+DlT3p+wpu/9FKES8SBr/H6fIl+t wNmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIUdOTDcMj7auilH2AduRddoDD5HdH6F8WqWGJKmL9mu8vYNMho ZKoR0yMHVBBJID5v49Mp9S3EICzcGzl7ZsWzUZU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eKlDVjUZzmwuYa15u8tzt5Vg2CtNyKGcAKns/Hsl7xdk0YYaKW9ymX4BD5+5Y/RpYB5coLFpscSBALUNRTbps= X-Received: by 2002:a19:945b:: with SMTP id w88mr8787520lfd.15.1542563522808; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:52:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154155148848.30897.17784898234776136208.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <50038373-104D-479D-BE31-07CA2E9D5B5B@employees.org> <7649E237-F41D-40B6-AAD5-9E5B641706E7@employees.org> <1efa098f9864456da58a3cfacd38026f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <877CC739-F893-4A97-82F0-EE2705511343@employees.org> <5896d18ef2a044c0ba3484326d515e9e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <951A1E82-3BE3-456A-9992-32F6FFB78929@employees.org> <6c2f699aec1c4d1ebb76cb1b2bfe7d05@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <0F27B4DF-52FB-4C5A-BCDF-CFABD363F95D@employees.org> <90b22d50-6100-a45c-1663-da80fede8126@gmail.com> <8d3cab11459e4276825c644154fd1b0e@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <5CC32CFB-9F35-429D-B85A-0C7A2358D7EA@employees.org> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 23:21:48 +0530 Message-ID: To: Ole Troan Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d210fe057af40eff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 17:52:11 -0000 --000000000000d210fe057af40eff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ole, Please find comments inline. Thanks & Regards, Naveen On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole Troan Hi Naveen, > > While the purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you, it might not b= e > for the rest of us. > > Can you please describe the problem you are trying to solve? > Naveen] Below is the description of problems that are being tried to solve: 1. Solicit any prefix of pre configured length using RS / RA. We can have it implemented in both of our CPE and router. But the solution wouldn't be compliant or interoperable. 2. Some of the prefixes that were assigned to hosts by our router are lingering though the host interface is brought down and the prefix isn't used anymore. 3. Hosts during mobility are losing the existing ongoing traffic sessions due to prefix change. This is because when the gateway detects mobility to a different tunnel the existing session will be cleared and a new session entry is created. During this process there is no guarantee that the same prefix will be assigned back to the device. > > Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your problem? > Naveen] All the prefixes were assigned using SLAAC and there is no solution till date to solicit or release a specific prefix. It's not just specific prefix, but the only existing solution to get a non /64 prefix is only through DHCPv6, which can't be done in the CPE. > > Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2=80=9D is not the problem d= escription I am > hoping for. > Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use case where prefix length less than 64. I see this as more like soliciting a prefix pool. All the host / CPE does is soliciting a prefix of desired length by including existing options in RS. But why a host or CPE soliciting a prefix (which is already done by them) without introducing new message types or options should be a problem? > > Cheers > Ole > > On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli > wrote: > > Hello Ole, > > Following are the things that am trying to solve. > > 1. I can't sell oranges when apples are asked for. > 2. Improving SLAAC as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a > prefix of certain length; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equall= y > more important for the protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an > important resource for the router). > > Please let me know which of the above points you think are not valid. > > Thanks & Regards, > Naveen > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan >> Naveen, >> >> Let me quote from RFC1958: >> >> 3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. >> If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has >> successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless >> there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same >> protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without >> of course using this argument to reject improvements. >> >> >> What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80= =99t >> covered by existing solutions? >> >> Cheers, >> Ole >> >> > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli >> wrote: >> > >> > Hello all, >> > >> > To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing >> protocols. I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality a= nd >> the same is covered in the draft. And I see the cases where this draft >> solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usable= . >> > >> > @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the route= r >> using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's very >> unfair way of evaluating. For that matter whether a PIO is included in = RS >> or not, a device is soliciting the information from router. When this >> draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it as a >> redundant to another standard, while actually it is not. >> > >> > If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoco= l >> standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is >> treated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there >> overlapping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the >> devices? For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6? Am = I >> wrong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to e= ach >> other? >> > >> > I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected member= s >> of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft >> suggested. But not sure why they couldn't become standards. It shows t= he >> need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure people keep >> inventing round-about solutions for the same. >> > >> > If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pleas= e >> suggest another change for that. >> > >> > I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing >> extensions to existing protocols. But I request the forum and WG chairs= to >> evaluate this draft fairly and technically. >> > >> > Yours, >> > Naveen. >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> > in line.. >> > On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > > Hi Brian, >> > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM >> > >> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; Ole Troan < >> otroan@employees.org> >> > >> Cc: v6ops list ; 6man WG >> > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >> >> > >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> > >>> HI Ole, >> > >>> >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM >> > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >> > >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L < >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Ole, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM >> > >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Fred, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), Fred L < >> Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Hi Ole, >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] >> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57 PM >> > >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L >> > >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli ; 6man WG < >> ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list >> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for >> draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Fred, >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent that DHCPv6 is a format on wire. >> But am sure it would consume more resources at router to >> > >> support >> > >>>>>>>> DHCPv6 >> > >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC. >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite different from SLAAC. >> > >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water under the bridge. Since 2003. >> > >>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment, the water under the bridge >> refers to the >> > >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the protocol for prefix delegation= . >> Is that what >> > >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say? >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Sure. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the* chosen protocol for >> Prefix Delegation >> > >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-based protocol in >> addition to that. I don't >> > >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the community agree with >> it? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid providing multiple >> equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and only solution? >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already solved is a >> waste of time and resources. >> > >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don=E2=80=99t h= ave a >> satisfactory solution... >> > >>> >> > >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solution to >> Prefix Delegation >> > >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is needed*. (= I >> add this >> > >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost' lists other >> non-protocol >> > >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) >> > >> >> > >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF solution, bu= t >> there >> > >> are some subtleties: >> > >> >> > >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually stop peop= le >> > >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would simply >> appear >> > >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far as the IETF >> protocols >> > >> are concerned. >> > > >> > > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on ou= r >> > > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we >> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that document: >> > > >> > > "10. Prefix Delegation Services >> > > >> > > Selection of prefix delegation services must be considered >> according >> > > to specific use cases. An example service is that offered by >> DHCPv6 >> > > [RFC3633]. An alternative service based on IPv6 ND messaging has >> > > also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit]. >> > > >> > > Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as proprietary IPAM= s, >> > > [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and >> > > [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." >> > > >> > > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments >> based >> > > on these recent discussions? >> > >> > I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals such as >> > anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the >> > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management >> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiio= n. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> > > >> > > Thanks - Fred >> > > >> > >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07 >> > >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing >> > >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix >> > >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges of an >> > >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar in any sort >> > >> of coordinated prefix management scheme. >> > >> >> > >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP: >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4 >> > >> >> > >> Brian >> > >> >> > >>> >> > >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something new, has to be different >> than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are you are talking about non-DHCPv6 >> protocol proposals? >> > >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea of including a DHCPv6 >> option in RS/RA messages >> > >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping", then that is not entirely true= . >> By including both the IPv6 >> > >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single message exchange, there ar= e >> fewer messages >> > >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is interesting. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting. You will not save= a round >> trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depend on each other. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there is a >> cross-dependence between the two >> > >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait until the RS/R= A >> exchange and check the >> > >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round trips). Are you sayin= g >> that that is no longer >> > >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits are deprecated? >> > >>>> >> > >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O bits. PD is a >> protocol between routers. >> > >>> >> > >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine with that. >> > >>> >> > >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer messages - two instead >> of four. That matters >> > >>>>> a great deal on low end links. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that. >> > >>>> Use header compression then. >> > >>> >> > >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the question is mores= o >> how >> > >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sending >> everything in >> > >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than requiring >> multiple >> > >>> channel accesses. >> > >>> >> > >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, breaker one-nine" >> you get >> > >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having to under= go >> > >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say that common >> data >> > >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have their CSMA >> protocols >> > >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's transmission.) >> > >>> >> > >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protocol semantics, just >> options in ND instead of DHCP. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - they are not >> different than DHCPv6. >> > >>>>> That is the whole point. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is valuable. ND >> is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable for per-rout= er >> > >>>> delegation. >> > >>> >> > >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one-to-one). >> In this >> > >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message is >> indication that >> > >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Cheers >> > >>>> Ole >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> Cheers >> > >>>>>> Ole >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80=9Cpermissionless extensio= ns=E2=80=9D of an >> IPv6 network. Something that solved that problem, would be a >> > >> lot >> > >>>>>> more >> > >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about. >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, >> > >>>>>>>> Ole >> > >>>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> v6ops mailing list >> > >>> v6ops@ietf.org >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > >>> >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > v6ops mailing list >> > v6ops@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> --000000000000d210fe057af40eff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ole,

Please find comments inline.

Thanks & Regards,
Naveen


=
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018, 23:05 Ole = Troan <otroan@employees.org = wrote:
Hi Naveen,

=
While the purpose of the proposal might be obvious to you,= it might not be for the rest of us.=C2=A0

=
Can you please describe the problem you are trying to solv= e?
Naveen] Below is t= he description of problems that are being tried to solve:
1. Solicit any prefix of pre configured length using RS / RA. We can = have it implemented in both of our CPE and router. But the solution wouldn&= #39;t be compliant or interoperable.
2. Some of the = prefixes that were assigned to hosts by our router are lingering though the= host interface is brought down and the prefix isn't used anymore.
3. Hosts during mobility are losing the existing ongoing= traffic sessions due to prefix change. This is because when the gateway de= tects mobility to a different tunnel the existing session will be cleared a= nd a new session entry is created. During this process there is no guarante= e that the same prefix will be assigned back to the device.

Can you please describe how existing solutions do not solve your proble= m?
Naveen] All the pr= efixes were assigned using SLAAC and there is no solution till date to soli= cit or release a specific prefix. It's not just specific prefix, but th= e only existing solution to get a non /64 prefix is only through DHCPv6, wh= ich can't be done in the CPE.
=
Note, =E2=80=9CPD is not supported in SLAAC=E2= =80=9D is not the problem description I am hoping for.
Naveen] Unfortunately yes for the use cas= e where prefix length less than 64. I see this as more like soliciting a pr= efix pool.=C2=A0 All the host / CPE does is soliciting a prefix of desired = length by including existing options in RS.=C2=A0 But why a host or CPE sol= iciting a prefix (which is already done by them) without introducing new me= ssage types or options should be a problem?

Cheers=C2=A0
Ole=

On 17 Nov 2018, at 18:16, Naveen Kottapalli <= naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ole,
<= br>
Following are the things that am trying to solve= .

1. I can't sell or= anges when apples are asked for.
2. Improving SLAAC = as a protocol by providing options like soliciting a prefix of certain leng= th; releasing or declining a prefix (this is equally more important for the= protocol perspective itself as a prefix is an important resource for the r= outer).

Please let me kn= ow which of the above points you think are not valid.

Thanks & Regards,
= Naveen


On Fri, 16 = Nov 2018, 00:21 Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org wrote:
Naveen,

Let me quote from RFC1958:

3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, ha= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution= unless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0there is a good technical reason not to.=C2=A0 Duplication of = the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, w= ithout
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of course using this argument to reject improvements.


What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal which isn=E2=80=99t= covered by existing solutions?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:17, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.= sarma@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> To be honest, there is no intention to compete with other existing pro= tocols.=C2=A0 I see that SLAAC has got some gaps w.r.t the functionality an= d the same is covered in the draft.=C2=A0 And I see the cases where this dr= aft solves real time problems where the existing bridge itself is not usabl= e.
>
> @Ole / @Fred / others: If a device soliciting something from the route= r using RS is considered as intruding into other territory, IMHO it's v= ery unfair way of evaluating.=C2=A0 For that matter whether a PIO is includ= ed in RS or not, a device is soliciting the information from router.=C2=A0 = When this draft solves the problems it cannot be put down just by saying it= as a redundant to another standard, while actually it is not.
>
> If a device soliciting required information using the existing protoco= l standards without new message types or option types or flags itself is tr= eated as a wrapper or redundant for other standards, aren't there overl= apping options in both SLAAC and DHCPv6 that can be sent to the devices?=C2= =A0 For that matter what about the complete SLAAC and DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Am I wr= ong in quoting that both DHCPv6 and SLAAC are redundant protocols to each o= ther?
>
> I also agree that multiple attempts were made by many respected member= s of the forum to bring in similar changes to whatever my current draft sug= gested.=C2=A0 But not sure why they couldn't become standards.=C2=A0 It= shows the need of devices that are looking for a solution and am sure peop= le keep inventing round-about solutions for the same.
>
> If someone sees a problem in mentioning DHCPv6 inside the draft, pleas= e suggest another change for that.
>
> I understand that the forum has finite reservations on providing exten= sions to existing protocols.=C2=A0 But I request the forum and WG chairs to= evaluate this draft fairly and technically.
>
> Yours,
> Naveen.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 at 03:31, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> in line..
> On 2018-11-14 09:34, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.c= arpenter@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:37 AM
> >> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin= @boeing.com>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>= ;
> >> Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man WG <= ;ipv6@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-navee= n-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>
> >> On 2018-11-14 07:52, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> >>> HI Ole,
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees= .org]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:36 AM
> >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L= .Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma= @gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops list <= ;v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for dra= ft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 19:25, Templin (US), Fred L &l= t;Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ole,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@e= mployees.org]
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:38 AM
> >>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <nave= en.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; v6ops = list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification= for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 17:34, Templin (US), F= red L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ole,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Ole Troan [mailto:= otroan@employees.org]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 11:57= PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>= ; v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Noti= fication for draft-naveen-slaac-prefix-management-00.txt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Fred,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree to some extent th= at DHCPv6 is a format on wire.=C2=A0 But am sure it would consume more reso= urces at router to
> >> support
> >>>>>>>> DHCPv6
> >>>>>>>>>> as a whole along with SLAAC.<= br> > >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Prefix delegation is quite di= fferent from SLAAC.
> >>>>>>>>>> Regardless this is water unde= r the bridge. Since 2003.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So I can understand this comment,= the water under the bridge refers to the
> >>>>>>>>> selection of DHCPv6 PD as the pro= tocol for prefix delegation. Is that what
> >>>>>>>>> you were meaning to say?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> OK, so you are saying that DHCPv6 is *the= * chosen protocol for Prefix Delegation
> >>>>>>> and there shall be no alternate IPv6 ND-b= ased protocol in addition to that. I don't
> >>>>>>> mind a statement like that, but would the= community agree with it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general we as a community try to avoid pro= viding multiple equivalent solutions to the same problem. Sometimes we fail= .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But, do you assert that DHCPv6 is the one and onl= y solution?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am saying that solving a problem that is already so= lved is a waste of time and resources.
> >>>> Now if you install could solve a problem where we don= =E2=80=99t have a satisfactory solution...
> >>>
> >>> OK, then I will say it - DHCPv6 is the one and only solut= ion to Prefix Delegation
> >>> *in cases where a dynamic Prefix Delegation protocol is n= eeded*. (I add this
> >>> qualification because 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'= ; lists other non-protocol
> >>> alternatives for a node receiving a prefix delegation.) > >>
> >> I'm not disagreeing that DHCPv6-PD is the current IETF so= lution, but there
> >> are some subtleties:
> >>
> >> 1) Since there are no protocol police, you can't actually= stop people
> >> using some other method of prefix delegation, which would sim= ply appear
> >> to be an out-of-band or "manual" mechanism as far a= s the IETF protocols
> >> are concerned.
> >
> > Right, I wanted to be careful in how I worded my message based on= our
> > knowledge of other non-router methods (including anima) which we<= br> > > captured in 'draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost'. From that docum= ent:
> >
> > "10.=C2=A0 Prefix Delegation Services
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Selection of prefix delegation services must be cons= idered according
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specific use cases.=C2=A0 An example service is t= hat offered by DHCPv6
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3633].=C2=A0 An alternative service based on IPv= 6 ND messaging has
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been proposed [I-D.pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive= -bit].
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other, non-router, mechanisms may exist, such as pro= prietary IPAMs,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-anima-prefix-management] and
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang]." > >
> > Does this still ring true, or do we need to make some adjustments= based
> > on these recent discussions?
>
> I think it's still true, although as Ole and I said, proposals suc= h as
> anima-prefix-management, CASM amd HNCP do recognize DHCPv6-PD as the > boundary mechanism. On the other hand, naveen-slaac-prefix-management<= br> > intentionally competes with DHCPv6-PD, which is a different discussiio= n.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
> >
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> 2) We did think about this question a bit while developing > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-prefix-management-07
> >> (which is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for mi= ssing
> >> references). The appendix A2 is supposed to show how a prefix=
> >> management system would interface to DHCPv6-PD at the edges o= f an
> >> autonomic network. I think you'd find something similar i= n any sort
> >> of coordinated prefix management scheme.
> >>
> >> 3) A similar situation arises in HNCP:
> >> https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc7788#section-6.3.4
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> The value proposition of something ne= w, has to be different than =E2=80=9Cjust different wrapping=E2=80=9D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By "different wrapping", are yo= u are talking about non-DHCPv6 protocol proposals?
> >>>>>>> If not, if you mean to say that the idea = of including a DHCPv6 option in RS/RA messages
> >>>>>>> is "just a different wrapping",= then that is not entirely true. By including both the IPv6
> >>>>>>> ND and DHCPv6 functions in a single messa= ge exchange, there are fewer messages
> >>>>>>> and fewer round trips. That in itself is = interesting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don=E2=80=99t really see that as interesting.= You will not save a round trip, since the two protocols don=E2=80=99t depe= nd on each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This gets us back to the M&O bits where there= is a cross-dependence between the two
> >>>>> protocols. Historically, you are supposed to wait= until the RS/RA exchange and check the
> >>>>> M&O bits before invoking DHCPv6 (two round tr= ips). Are you saying that that is no longer
> >>>>> the case? Have we declared that the M&O bits = are deprecated?
> >>>>
> >>>> DHCPv6 PD has never had any dependency on the M&O= bits. PD is a protocol between routers.
> >>>
> >>> OK, then let's ignore the M&O bits - I am fine wi= th that.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is also important that there are fewer message= s - two instead of four. That matters
> >>>>> a great deal on low end links.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to see the maths behind that.
> >>>> Use header compression then.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't only a question of how many bytes - the ques= tion is moreso how
> >>> many channel accesses are necessary. On some links, sendi= ng everything in
> >>> a single channel access is less prone to collisions than = requiring multiple
> >>> channel accesses.
> >>>
> >>> Think about CB radio - after you say "breaker, break= er one-nine" you get
> >>> to say as much as you want (within reason) without having= to undergo
> >>> channel contention multiple times. (That is not to say th= at common data
> >>> links function the same as CB radio, but they do have the= ir CSMA protocols
> >>> for making sure they don't step on someone else's= transmission.)
> >>>
> >>>>>> Different wrapping. As in exactly same protoc= ol semantics, just options in ND instead of DHCP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, the options in RS/RA are exactly DHCPv6 - the= y are not different than DHCPv6.
> >>>>> That is the whole point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I am sorry but I struggle getting why that is = valuable. ND is also a one to many protocol. That=E2=80=99s not suitable fo= r per-router
> >>>> delegation.
> >>>
> >>> IPv6 ND messages are permitted to be sent as unicast (one= -to-one). In this
> >>> case, the presence of a DHCPv6 option in the RS message i= s indication that
> >>> the RA is to be returned via unicast.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Ole
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks - Fred
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We are still struggling with =E2=80= =9Cpermissionless extensions=E2=80=9D of an IPv6 network. Something that so= lved that problem, would be a
> >> lot
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> interesting to talk about.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Ole
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>>
> >
>
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