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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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Apologies for the HTML Email. Some folks complain about them. This is a =
file I put together daily showing the status of v6ops documents.This =
document describes the drafts associated with this group. It describes =
their current state as seen by the RFC Editor, IESG/AD, and the working =
or research group. For working group drafts and individual submissions, =
it also indicates whether the draft has been updated since the previous =
IETF meeting. Drafts that are new or have been updated are "current"; =
other drafts are "old".

At IETF 105, Jen discussed draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init, and there =
was a lot of support for taking it as a working group draft. Bob Hinden, =
6man chair, commented that he would prefer that v6ops discuss =
operational issues, but protocol issues be discussed in 6man. Hence, Ron =
and I are looking for a draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init that addresses =
the operational issues raised in this draft, and Bob and Ole are looking =
for the protocol issues in a 6man draft. Those balls are in Jen's court, =
but I suspect she would appreciate any help folks want to offer.

A point I'm thinking about for IETF 106 is that we don't see a lot of =
email support for the individual submissions below. If you are hoping =
for one of them to go somewhere, email to the list would be in order. =
We're also interested in new drafts on IPv6 networking. If you're =
seeking inspiration, there have been a couple of longish threads on =
nanog@ recently. As stated in our charter, we would hope they address =
operational issues that you see in your network(s), and propose =
solutions. Such drafts have to be posted before November 4, as that's =
the repository cut-off, and ideally long enough before that to allow for =
mailing list discussion.
> On each draft below, there are three or four links:
>=20
> the relevant datatracker link,
> a pointer to the HTML version of the draft in the tools directory,
> a pointer to the email archived on IETF mailing lists related to the =
draft, and
> a pointer to RFCDIFF against the previous version, if there was one.
> RFC Editor: RFC-EDITOR
>=20
> 2019-09-09	draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment> =
(HTML) <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment> =
(thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-ietf-v6ops=
-nat64-deployment%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-0=
8.txt>
> WG: Candidate for WG Adoption
>=20
> 2019-07-25	draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init> =
(HTML) <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init> =
(thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-linkova-v6=
ops-nd-cache-init%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init-0=
1.txt>
> Individual Submission: Unupdated
>=20
> 2019-07-08	draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches=
> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches> =
(thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-palet-v6op=
s-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-c=
aches-03.txt>
> 2019-07-06	draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum> (thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-gont-v6ops=
-slaac-renum%22>
> 2019-07-06	draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> =
(HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> =
(thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-lmhp-v6ops=
-transition-comparison%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-compari=
son-03.txt>
> 2019-07-04	draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links> (thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-palet-v6op=
s-p2p-links%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links-03.txt>=

> 2019-07-03	draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only> (thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-palet-v6op=
s-ipv6-only%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only-04.txt>=

> 2019-06-24	draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost> (thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-templin-v6=
ops-pdhost%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-templin-v6ops-pdhost-24.txt>
> Individual Submission: Updated
>=20
> 2019-09-18	draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir> (HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir> (thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-shytyi-v6o=
ps-danir%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-04.txt>
> The charter for this group is at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/>Mon Oct 14 14:00:32 =
2019 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/>=


From nobody Mon Oct 14 17:17:10 2019
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:16:39 +1100
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To: jordi.palet@theipv6company.com, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: [v6ops] Some comments on 'IPv6 Point-to-Point Links' / draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links-03
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Hi Jordi,

I started this review a while ago, intending to get it finished before now.

It isn't finished yet, however with IETF 106 coming, there's enough
below to work on.

Regards,
Mark.

--
Hi Jordi,

Some comments on the above ID.

* 3.2.  Rationale for using /127

It may be worth mentioning that the effectiveness of this relies on
both ends of the link being configured with addresses from within the
/127, and that if that doesn't occur due to human error through
omission, nothing in IPv6 will detect and notify of that situation. If
the link is successfully carrying traffic, then people can assume the
link's configuration is correct and complete.

This is because although in IPv6 (and IPv4) we think about assigning a
prefix to a link, in reality and practice, what we actually do is
configure addresses from within a prefix to interfaces attached to a
link. There is nothing in IPv6 that demands that all interfaces
attached to a link have addresses from all of the prefixes assigned to
the link, and it is a valid IPv6 configuration if all link interfaces
don't have addresses from all link prefixes.

The only IPv6 prefix that requires all interfaces on a link to have
addresses from within it is the Link-Local prefix.

A scenario I imagine is where two people are bringing up a Internet
transit link between a service provider and a small enterprise. The
small enterprise router has a default route towards the service
provider. The service provider configures their link end with their
/127, however the small enterprise overlooks it, because it isn't a
routine task for them. As Internet access will work, it may appear
that the link has been correctly configured with /127s at both ends.
However, the ping-problem now exists with a "/127 link" due to the
default route.

This might sound a bit contrived, however the point is that humans are
involved and can make errors, and to be assured that the /127 prefix
mitigates the problem it is supposed to, human operators must check
that both addresses are configured on the link, because IPv6 won't,
and the link carrying transit traffic isn't a positive confirmation of
/127 configuration correctness.

So in this section it may be worth adding some text like:

"If using a /127 prefix, configuration of each of the addresses within
the /127 prefix, at each respective end of the link, must be actively
validated by the network operator. A missing /127 address from one end
of the link, with a local route pointing out that end of the link that
covers the missing /127 address, such as a default route, causes a
"ping-pong" scenario to exist for the missing /127 address. The link
could still be successfully carrying transit traffic, and IPv6 will
not report any errors, because IPv6 doesn't require or nor check to
ensure all interfaces attached to a link has addresses from all
prefixes assigned to the link, excepting the Link-Local prefix per
[RFC 4291]."



* Lack of full RFC 4861 ND implementation on point-to-point links

The fundamental root cause of the ping-pong problem is some IPv6
implementations not performing full Neighbor Discovery (NS/NA) on
addresses that the prefix says could exist on the link.

IPv6 implementations are assuming that all addresses within the prefix
must exist at the other end of the point-to-point link, and send the
traffic straight onto the link. If the address doesn't exist, and
there is a covering route back in the other direction, the ping-pong
problem occurs.

Full Neighbor Discovery is doing more than just resolving the
link-layer address of an IPv6 address. Neighbor Discovery is also
determining if the address exists. Even if a point-to-point link
doesn't have link-layer addresses to resolve, ND determining if an
address exists on the link is very beneficial because it will prevent
the ping-pong problem occurring entirely regardless of the IPv6 prefix
length being used on the link.

So in my above SP and small enterprise example, the service provider
router would try to ND NS for the missing far end /127, and if it
doesn't successfully discover it's existence, then the SP router won't
put packets onto the point-to-point link that would end up being
ping-ponged.

(I think this should be covered somewhere in this draft, but not
necessarily directly after 3.2 above. Just convenient to put it here
to use the SP / small enterprise example to demonstrate how performing
full ND prevents ping-pong entirely.)


* 4.  Numbering Choices

I don't think we should be referring to links as "numbered" or
"unnumbered". If "numbers" are IPv6 addresses, all links are numbered,
because RFC 4291 requires that all interfaces attached to a link have
at least a Link-Local "number" or address from the Link-Local prefix.

The principle of least surprise means that we need to be factual in
our terminology and descriptions. I could imagine somebody who doesn't
know IPv6 that well being surprised to discover their "unnumbered"
link has numbers on it. They may even briefly panic because they think
somebody breached their router security.

An completely accurate and a most least surprising term for a link
with interfaces that only has Link-Local Addresses is a "Link-Local
Addresses Only" link, or "Link-Local Only" link. "Link-Local Only" is
the also the abbreviated title of RFC 7404 "Using Only Link-Local
Addressing inside an IPv6 Network", so using that term in this ID is
consistent.

* 4.1.  GUA (Global Unicast Addresses)

nit: extra "and"  I think.

"It provides full
   functionality for both <>and<> end-points of the point-to-point links and
   consequently, facilitates troubleshooting."

probably should be:

"It provides full
   functionality for both end-points of the point-to-point links and
   consequently, facilitates troubleshooting."


* 4.2.  ULA (Unique Local Addresses)

"This
   approach may cause numerous problems and therefore is strongly
   discouraged."

I'd suggest adding in "when carrying Internet traffic". It wouldn't
cause any issues with PMTUD links carrying ULA traffic within the
local ULA domain/ /48 prefix.

i.e.

"This approach may cause numerous problems when carrying Internet
traffic and therefore is strongly discouraged."

I think it would be worth referring to RFC 6752, "Issues with Private
IP Addressing in the Internet", as it also services as more in depth
discussion on this general issue, although from a private IPv4
addressing perspective.

So something like:

"ULAs are IPv6 private addresses, not intended to be used as source or
destination addresses across the Internet. This issue also exists in
IPv4 when using RFC 1918 addresses on links carrying IPv4 Internet
traffic. [RFC 6752] discusses this issue for IPv4, with much of the
discussion applying similarly to IPv6 and ULAs."



"However, this approach is valid if, following Section 2.2 of
   [RFC4443], and despite using ULA for the point-to-point link, the
   router is configured with at least one GUA and the source of the
   ICMPv6 messages are always a GUA."

I'd suggest referencing the IPv6 Default Address Selection RFC, as
that is what will pick the GUA source address for a GUA destined
ICMPv6 message.

e.g.

"However, this approach is valid if, following Section 2.2 of
   [RFC4443], and despite using ULA for the point-to-point link, the
   router is configured with at least one GUA and the source of the
   ICMPv6 messages are always a GUA, per the IPv6 Default Address
Selection algorithm [RFC6724]."


* 4.3.  Unnumbered

Per-above, replace "unnumbered" with "Link-Local Only" or similar and
adjust the text to suit.


"While this might work for routers, it does not work for devices that
   can't request a prefix delegation over DHCPv6 and are therefore left
   without any usable GUA to allow traffic forwarding."

I'm a little confused by this. Is this describing a router can't do
DHCPv6-PD and therefore would have only link-local addresses?

Is the comment about not having a usable GUA preventing traffic
forwarding really referring to the route not having an address that
can be used for ICMPv6 messages that need to be sent across more than
one link?

If my understanding is correct, I think it might be better to say it
that way, i.e. "The router will need to have a suitable routeable
address, such as an appropriate GUA or ULA address, to use as a source
for ICMPv6 messages."


It's probably a bit of pedantry, however I expect a router with only
link-local addresses will forward packets regardless, however if it
needed to send an ICMPv6 message it would have no choice but to choose
a link-local source address due to IPv6 Default Address Selection. I
think they would be sent, however they should then be being dropped by
the next router towards the destination.

I can't think of much use for it, however I think it might be a valid
configuration. IPv6 hosts are expected to deal with ICMPv6 packets
being lost, so this would just be a perverse case of ICMPv6 packet
loss. If the hosts either don't ever trigger PMTUD, or use RFC 4821
"Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery" then a pure link-local only
router setup might even work without issue.


From nobody Mon Oct 14 20:29:47 2019
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:29:17 +1100
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Subject: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Hi All,

Recently bought an IPv6 capable Wifi printer. As it is attached to my
single Wifi SSID, it is also configuring IPv6 GUA addresses, even
though it doesn't need or need to be reachable from the Internet in my
use (i.e. I'm not using "cloud printing" or similar).

I thought it would be better for these types of devices to only
configure routeable addresses from the ULA address space by default,
unless that is overridden.

Comments most welcome.

WG Chairs, I'm attending IETF-106, so I'd like a presentation slot for this.

Thanks very much,
Mark.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:24
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Mark Smith and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing
Revision:       00
Title:          Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices
Document date:  2019-10-14
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          8
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing


Abstract:
   For certain types or models of devices it should be clear and obvious
   that, by default, they should not be reachable from the global IPv6
   Internet, or able to reach the global IPv6 Internet, even though the
   network they are attached to provides global IPv6 Internet
   connectivity.  This memo proposes that these types of devices refuse
   to configure and use global IPv6 Internet addresses by default.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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On Oct 14, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought it would be better for these types of devices to only
> configure routeable addresses from the ULA address space by default,
> unless that is overridden.

How does the device know that it is =E2=80=9Cthat type of device?=E2=80=9D=
   Also, don=E2=80=99t you want it to fetch firmware updates?

You should probably look at MUD=E2=80=94that=E2=80=99s a better approach =
to this sort of problem, and doesn=E2=80=99t rely on address routability =
as a proxy for access control.


--Apple-Mail=_846A0935-DC17-47BC-A674-CF8FC9F3FA0B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 14, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Mark Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">I thought it would be better for these types of devices to =
only</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">configure =
routeable addresses from the ULA address space by default,</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">unless that =
is overridden.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">How does the device know that it is =E2=80=9Cthat type of =
device?=E2=80=9D &nbsp; Also, don=E2=80=99t you want it to fetch =
firmware updates?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">You should probably look at MUD=E2=80=94that=E2=80=99s a =
better approach to this sort of problem, and doesn=E2=80=99t rely on =
address routability as a proxy for access control.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_846A0935-DC17-47BC-A674-CF8FC9F3FA0B--


From nobody Tue Oct 15 01:11:22 2019
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:11:00 +1100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 2:30 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently bought an IPv6 capable Wifi printer. As it is attached to my
> single Wifi SSID, it is also configuring IPv6 GUA addresses, even
> though it doesn't need or need to be reachable from the Internet in my
> use (i.e. I'm not using "cloud printing" or similar).
>
> I thought it would be better for these types of devices to only
> configure routeable addresses from the ULA address space by default,
> unless that is overridden.

The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
I'm not sure it's possible to know that. Isolation from the Internet
is the policy decision, not smth which is a function of the device
type.
I'm not sure that devices listed in the section 6 should by default be
'isolated from the Internet' - actually I believe otherwise.

All those devices can be installed not just in a single-subnet home
network but in SMB or enterprise-like networks. In that case
reachability to/from global addresses would be required.

> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:24
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
> To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Mark Smith and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices
> Document date:  2019-10-14
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          8
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing
>
>
> Abstract:
>    For certain types or models of devices it should be clear and obvious
>    that, by default, they should not be reachable from the global IPv6
>    Internet, or able to reach the global IPv6 Internet, even though the
>    network they are attached to provides global IPv6 Internet
>    connectivity.  This memo proposes that these types of devices refuse
>    to configure and use global IPv6 Internet addresses by default.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:12:13 +1100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 9:04 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> At IETF 105, Jen discussed draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init, and there w=
as a lot of support for taking it as a working group draft. Bob Hinden, 6ma=
n chair, commented that he would prefer that v6ops discuss operational issu=
es, but protocol issues be discussed in 6man. Hence, Ron and I are looking =
for a draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init that addresses the operational issues =
raised in this draft, and Bob and Ole are looking for the protocol issues i=
n a 6man draft. Those balls are in Jen's court, but I suspect she would app=
reciate any help folks want to offer.

Almost done with the new version, sorry about the delay, will submit
before the deadline most definitely!

--=20
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:15:53 +0200
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Hi,

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:11:00PM +1100, Jen Linkova wrote:
> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'

I'd say that most devices built by manufacturers today SHOULD be
isolated from the Internet...  but I'm afraid that *manufacturers*
are never going to agree that their shiny new toys are not mature
enough...

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
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Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:02:10 +0200
From: Dmytro Shytyi <ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>
To: "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net>
Cc: "Jen Linkova" <furry13@gmail.com>, "v6ops list" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Hello,



>From the point when device is connected to the internet it becomes a Node that could be reached outside by external users.

The firmware of such devices is updated not that frequenly. It could be dangerous.
>From the point I put my device in DMZ in few moments i see in the log the "Access denied via ssh for user root".

Thus, I think, it is an important thing the authors of the draft highlight.
______________
Dmytro SHYTYI


---- On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:15:53 +0200 Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote ----


Hi, 
 
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:11:00PM +1100, Jen Linkova wrote: 
> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a 
> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..' 
 
I'd say that most devices built by manufacturers today SHOULD be 
isolated from the Internet...  but I'm afraid that *manufacturers* 
are never going to agree that their shiny new toys are not mature 
enough... 
 
Gert Doering 
 -- NetMaster 
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? 
 
SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer 
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann 
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) 
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 
 
_______________________________________________ 
v6ops mailing list 
mailto:v6ops@ietf.org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head>=
<meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"></h=
ead><body ><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=
; font-size: 10pt;"><div>Hello,<br></div><div><br></div><div>From the point=
 when device is connected to the internet it becomes a Node that could be r=
eached outside by external users.<br></div><div>The firmware of such device=
s is updated not that frequenly. It could be dangerous.</div><div>From the =
point I put my device in DMZ in few moments i see in the log the "Access de=
nied via ssh for user root".<br></div><div>Thus, I think, it is an importan=
t thing the authors of the draft highlight.</div><div>______________<br><b>=
Dmytro SHYTYI</b></div><br><div style=3D"" class=3D"zmail_extra"><br><div i=
d=3D"Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:15:53 +0200 <b>Gert Doering =
&lt;gert@space.net&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div><br><blockquote style=3D"bor=
der-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 6px; margin: 0px 0px =
0px 5px;"><div>Hi, <br> <br>On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:11:00PM +1100, Jen L=
inkova wrote: <br>&gt; The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manu=
facturer that a <br>&gt; device should be isolated from the Internet by def=
ault..' <br> <br>I'd say that most devices built by manufacturers today SHO=
ULD be <br>isolated from the Internet...  but I'm afraid that *manufacturer=
s* <br>are never going to agree that their shiny new toys are not mature <b=
r>enough... <br> <br>Gert Doering <br> -- NetMaster <br>-- <br>have you ena=
bled IPv6 on something today...? <br> <br>SpaceNet AG                      =
Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer <br>Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=
        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann <br>D-80807 Muenchen      =
           HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) <br>Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         U=
St-IdNr.: DE813185279 <br> <br>____________________________________________=
___ <br>v6ops mailing list <br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ie=
tf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> <br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.iet=
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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On Oct 15, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Dmytro Shytyi <ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net> =
wrote:
> =46rom the point when device is connected to the internet it becomes a =
Node that could be reached outside by external users.
> The firmware of such devices is updated not that frequenly. It could =
be dangerous.

True.

> =46rom the point I put my device in DMZ in few moments i see in the =
log the "Access denied via ssh for user root".

Yes, we all see these sorts of things.

> Thus, I think, it is an important thing the authors of the draft =
highlight.

The problem is that this is not really a good way to solve the problem, =
and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if anyone implemented it.  If you and/or =
the authors want to work on this problem, I think that would be =
worthwhile, but I think you need to think about a different solution.   =
That=E2=80=99s why I suggested that you look at the work that is being =
done with MUD (e.g., RFC 8520).


--Apple-Mail=_2AE200C9-6BF8-47A5-86BF-A8CF8526F1D6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 15, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Dmytro Shytyi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net" =
class=3D"">ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">=46rom the point when device is connected to the =
internet it becomes a Node that could be reached outside by external =
users.<br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">The firmware of such devices is updated not that =
frequenly. It could be dangerous.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>True.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">=46rom the point I put my device in DMZ in few moments =
i see in the log the "Access denied via ssh for user root".<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Yes, we =
all see these sorts of things.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Thus, I think, it is an important thing the authors of =
the draft highlight.</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The problem is that this is not really a good way to solve =
the problem, and I=E2=80=99d be surprised if anyone implemented it. =
&nbsp;If you and/or the authors want to work on this <i =
class=3D"">problem</i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">, I =
think that would be worthwhile, but I think you need to think about a =
different </span><i class=3D"">solution</i>. &nbsp; That=E2=80=99s why I =
suggested that you look at the work that is being done with MUD (e.g., =
RFC 8520).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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Dear Fred,

Thank you for taking care for all drafts, including our one:

>> 2019-07-06	draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison (tracker) <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> (HTML) <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> (thread) <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison%22> (diffs) <https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-03.txt>

Unfortunately I cannot promise a significant update until the cut date 
of IETF 106. However, I do not want to abandon it at all, and I plan to 
add a section about the performance analysis of the 5 IPv4aaS 
technologies according to the methodology described in RFC 8219.

Although our results are not visible yet, several people are working on 
this topic. When I was in Japan, I did SIIT (also called stateless 
NAT64) performance measurements, by which I tested the feasibility of 
the benchmarking methodology described in RFC 8219. Unfortunately, the 
DPDK based measurement program written by my PhD student proved to be 
completely unusable, and though I could do some quick fix and I could 
use it in a limited way, I decided to completely re-implement it. Now, I 
am very close to finish it and release siitperf as a free software.

Since September, I have an MSc student, who is working on an RFC 8219 
compliant DS-Lite Tester. He has experience in DPDK, and I hope that he 
can do it in one semester. (Perhaps, he will extend his tester for the 
other technologies in the next semester, but it is his decision, if he 
is willing to do so.)

I also have two new PhD students: one of them focuses on the comparison 
of the 5 IPv4aaS technologies in several aspects, and the other one 
deals with the security issues of IPv6 transition technologies.

So even slowly, but we are progressing. I plan to include some of our 
results into our draft before IETF 107.

Best regards,

Gábor



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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <e7c533ef-06f7-6853-1218-34c1b0b26dc3@hit.bme.hu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 22:45:01 -0700
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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Looking forward to the update and the results.

> On Oct 15, 2019, at 12:06 PM, G=C3=A1bor LENCSE <lencse@hit.bme.hu> =
wrote:
>=20
> Dear Fred,
>=20
> Thank you for taking care for all drafts, including our one:
>=20
>>> 2019-07-06	draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison (tracker) =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> =
(HTML) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison> =
(thread) =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=3Da&q=3D%22draft-lmhp-v6ops=
-transition-comparison%22> (diffs) =
<https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-compari=
son-03.txt>
>=20
> Unfortunately I cannot promise a significant update until the cut date =
of IETF 106. However, I do not want to abandon it at all, and I plan to =
add a section about the performance analysis of the 5 IPv4aaS =
technologies according to the methodology described in RFC 8219.
>=20
> Although our results are not visible yet, several people are working =
on this topic. When I was in Japan, I did SIIT (also called stateless =
NAT64) performance measurements, by which I tested the feasibility of =
the benchmarking methodology described in RFC 8219. Unfortunately, the =
DPDK based measurement program written by my PhD student proved to be =
completely unusable, and though I could do some quick fix and I could =
use it in a limited way, I decided to completely re-implement it. Now, I =
am very close to finish it and release siitperf as a free software.
>=20
> Since September, I have an MSc student, who is working on an RFC 8219 =
compliant DS-Lite Tester. He has experience in DPDK, and I hope that he =
can do it in one semester. (Perhaps, he will extend his tester for the =
other technologies in the next semester, but it is his decision, if he =
is willing to do so.)
>=20
> I also have two new PhD students: one of them focuses on the =
comparison of the 5 IPv4aaS technologies in several aspects, and the =
other one deals with the security issues of IPv6 transition =
technologies.
>=20
> So even slowly, but we are progressing. I plan to include some of our =
results into our draft before IETF 107.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> G=C3=A1bor
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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> On Oct 14, 2019, at 8:29 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> Recently bought an IPv6 capable Wifi printer. As it is attached to my
> single Wifi SSID, it is also configuring IPv6 GUA addresses, even
> though it doesn't need or need to be reachable from the Internet in my
> use (i.e. I'm not using "cloud printing" or similar).
>=20
> I thought it would be better for these types of devices to only
> configure routeable addresses from the ULA address space by default,
> unless that is overridden.
>=20
> Comments most welcome.
>=20
> WG Chairs, I'm attending IETF-106, so I'd like a presentation slot for =
this.

As always, I'm looking for a posted draft, and I'm looking for =
supportive working group commentary when it is posted. When you post it, =
you will get an email from the secretariat. I'd suggest you "reply" to =
it, but retrain it to v6ops@, describe your intentions, and request =
comments.

> Thanks very much,
> Mark.
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:24
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
> To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Mark Smith and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:           draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet =
Devices
> Document date:  2019-10-14
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          8
> URL:
> =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressi=
ng-00.txt
> Status:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00
> Htmlized:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-address=
ing
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   For certain types or models of devices it should be clear and =
obvious
>   that, by default, they should not be reachable from the global IPv6
>   Internet, or able to reach the global IPv6 Internet, even though the
>   network they are attached to provides global IPv6 Internet
>   connectivity.  This memo proposes that these types of devices refuse
>   to configure and use global IPv6 Internet addresses by default.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 22:54:36 -0700
Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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> On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
> I'm not sure it's possible to know that.=20

It *is* possible for the device to prevent its packets from going =
elsewhere, assuming routers and proxies behave according to the rules =
and people aren't translating. That is a defined function of ULAs and =
Link-Local addresses.=


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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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Let me ask a question. Each time we meet, about a month before the =
repository cut-off, I say "it's a month before the cut-off" - Speak!. I =
barely hear crickets. When I sent this (which I share with Ron every =
other week and we discuss), I got several replies.

Question for this list: is this a useful formulation of the datatracker =
data and call to working group action? Would you like to see it a few =
weeks before each meeting? It's what Ron and I use, in addition to the =
datatracker itself, in figuring out our agenda. When I comment on =
mailing list behavior, these are the links I'm following. As I did in =
this email, I can also list action items I'm expecting - such as "hint, =
you know who you are" - we had several people agree at IETF 105 to =
review drafts and comment to the list...

On Oct 14, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> Apologies for the HTML Email. Some folks complain about them. This is =
a file I put together daily showing the status of v6ops documents.This =
document describes the drafts associated with this group. It describes =
their current state as seen by the RFC Editor, IESG/AD, and the working =
or research group. For working group drafts and individual submissions, =
it also indicates whether the draft has been updated since the previous =
IETF meeting. Drafts that are new or have been updated are "current"; =
other drafts are "old".
>=20
> At IETF 105, Jen discussed draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init, and =
there was a lot of support for taking it as a working group draft. Bob =
Hinden, 6man chair, commented that he would prefer that v6ops discuss =
operational issues, but protocol issues be discussed in 6man. Hence, Ron =
and I are looking for a draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init that addresses =
the operational issues raised in this draft, and Bob and Ole are looking =
for the protocol issues in a 6man draft. Those balls are in Jen's court, =
but I suspect she would appreciate any help folks want to offer.
>=20
> A point I'm thinking about for IETF 106 is that we don't see a lot of =
email support for the individual submissions below. If you are hoping =
for one of them to go somewhere, email to the list would be in order. =
We're also interested in new drafts on IPv6 networking. If you're =
seeking inspiration, there have been a couple of longish threads on =
nanog@ recently. As stated in our charter, we would hope they address =
operational issues that you see in your network(s), and propose =
solutions. Such drafts have to be posted before November 4, as that's =
the repository cut-off, and ideally long enough before that to allow for =
mailing list discussion.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <title>IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis</title>
  </head>
<body>
<p>
This document describes the drafts associated with this
group. It describes their current state as seen by the RFC Editor,
IESG/AD, and the working or research group. For working group drafts and individual
submissions, it also indicates whether the draft has been updated since
the previous IETF meeting. Drafts that are new or have been updated
are "current"; other drafts are "old".</p>
<p>On each draft, there are three or four links:</p>
<ul>
  <li>the relevant datatracker link,</li>
  <li>a pointer to the HTML version of the draft in the tools directory,</li>
  <li>a pointer to the email archived on IETF mailing lists related 
      to the draft, and</li>
  <li>a pointer to RFCDIFF against the previous version, if there was one.</li>
</ul>
    <h3>RFC Editor: RFC-EDITOR</h3>
    <ul>
      <li>2019-09-09	draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-08.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
    </ul>

    <h3>WG: Candidate for WG Adoption</h3>
    <ul>
      <li>2019-07-25	draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init-01.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
    </ul>

    <h3>Individual Submission: Unupdated </h3>
    <ul>
      <li>2019-07-08	draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-palet-v6ops-464xlat-opt-cdn-caches-03.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
      <li>2019-07-06	draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum%22">(thread)</a></li>
      <li>2019-07-06	draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lmhp-v6ops-transition-comparison-03.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
      <li>2019-07-04	draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links-03.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
      <li>2019-07-03	draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-palet-v6ops-ipv6-only-04.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
      <li>2019-06-24	draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost-24.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
    </ul>

    <h3>Individual Submission: Updated </h3>
    <ul>
      <li>2019-09-18	draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir  <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir">(tracker)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir">(HTML)</a>  <a href="https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&q=%22draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir%22">(thread)</a>  <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-04.txt">(diffs)</a></li>
    </ul>

<p>The charter for this group is at <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/v6ops/about/</p>
    <p>Mon Oct 14 14:00:32 2019</p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 20:19:12 +1100
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To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
> > device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
> > I'm not sure it's possible to know that.
>
> It *is* possible for the device to prevent its packets from going elsewhere,

Sorry I should have clarified: I'm questioning the statement that it's
possible (or should be done) to know at the time of manufacturing that
this particular
device should be isolated from the Internet.
Let's say I'm buying a printer. Or an IoT device (a sensor). How can
the manufacturer know if I'm going to install it at my mom's home
network with just one subnet (the link-local address would be
sufficient), at my place (with subnets, so GUAs are needed or at least
ULAs - but I would mean I have to configure my routers) or at my
office (so GUA are required for the device to work)?

Will I need to look for 'work with multiple network segments' sticker
on a box before I buy a device (and shall I test it in the lab because
vendors tend to be overly optimistic about their products feature
set)?

> assuming routers and proxies behave according to the rules and people aren't translating. That is a defined function of ULAs and Link-Local addresses.

Not sure about ULAs. The ULA has global scope. If a device has a
default gateway and ULAs only nothing would prevent it from sending
packets with ULA source to any destinations. The network is expected
to have a *policy* configured at its edge to block ULAs - so we are
back to 'it's a policy decision if this device should or should not
have  global connectivity'. Let the administrator decide.

-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


From nobody Wed Oct 16 08:12:14 2019
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Jena , how does the attacker route the traffic to the ULA address of the dev=
ice?  GUA to ULA works within the site.  Getting it to work from outside the=
 site is another matter. =20

First you have to find a border router with ULA filtering disabled.  Home bo=
rder routers have ULA filtering on by default if they want to be certified b=
y cablelabs etc.  Then you have to also have a border router that processes s=
ource routed packets as ULA routes aren=E2=80=99t carried be default.  Again=
 something that is supposed to be blocked on border routers by default.=20

Printers could also default to only accepting connections from the containin=
g /48 of advertised RA prefixes. This works fine for ULA and reasonably well=
 for GUA in restricting traffic to =E2=80=9Cintra site=E2=80=9D

It would work better if ISPs would hand our /48s.=20

--=20
Mark Andrews

> On 16 Oct 2019, at 20:19, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.=
com> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
>>> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
>>> I'm not sure it's possible to know that.
>>=20
>> It *is* possible for the device to prevent its packets from going elsewhe=
re,
>=20
> Sorry I should have clarified: I'm questioning the statement that it's
> possible (or should be done) to know at the time of manufacturing that
> this particular
> device should be isolated from the Internet.
> Let's say I'm buying a printer. Or an IoT device (a sensor). How can
> the manufacturer know if I'm going to install it at my mom's home
> network with just one subnet (the link-local address would be
> sufficient), at my place (with subnets, so GUAs are needed or at least
> ULAs - but I would mean I have to configure my routers) or at my
> office (so GUA are required for the device to work)?
>=20
> Will I need to look for 'work with multiple network segments' sticker
> on a box before I buy a device (and shall I test it in the lab because
> vendors tend to be overly optimistic about their products feature
> set)?
>=20
>> assuming routers and proxies behave according to the rules and people are=
n't translating. That is a defined function of ULAs and Link-Local addresses=
.
>=20
> Not sure about ULAs. The ULA has global scope. If a device has a
> default gateway and ULAs only nothing would prevent it from sending
> packets with ULA source to any destinations. The network is expected
> to have a *policy* configured at its edge to block ULAs - so we are
> back to 'it's a policy decision if this device should or should not
> have  global connectivity'. Let the administrator decide.
>=20
> --=20
> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Wed Oct 16 13:36:43 2019
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Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
>=20

> I'd say that most devices built by manufacturers today SHOULD be
> isolated from the Internet...  but I'm afraid that *manufacturers*
> are never going to agree that their shiny new toys are not mature
> enough...

Not only that, but these days everything is "internet connected" =
regardless of whether that actually adds anything useful*. I can't see =
many (if any) manufacturers defaulting to *not* internet connected.

* Eg, a made up example of a light "switch" and associated "smart" =
lights that don't work without taking to a controller "somewhere out in =
the internet" just so the user can control their lights from anywhere.


From nobody Wed Oct 16 16:14:34 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 2:12 AM Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>
> Jena , how does the attacker route the traffic to the ULA address of the =
device?  GUA to ULA works within the site.

What is the 'site'?

>Getting it to work from outside the site is another matter.

Scenario 1: we have devices which are technically able to talk to each
other. You can either use this functionality or if you don't -
implement security policies to block such traffic.
Scenario 2: we start creating devices which looks like a normal
Ipv6-enabled ones but they can only work in a very limited set of
scenarios and if I want them to work in an arbitrary network, it would
be, as you've correctly noticed, 'another matter'. I see this as an
attempt of solving one particular and very specific use case on the
expense of everyone else.

If someone needs to prevent accidental access to subset of their
devices from the Internet w/o putting any effort into implementing
security policies why would not they just install devices w/o IPv6
support whatsoever? Use Ipv4 link-local addresses (or any other IPv4
addresses) and disable IPv4 NAT...
Could be a great selling point 'built-in protection from unauthorised
access: no IPv6 support'.

> First you have to find a border router with ULA filtering disabled.
>Home border routers have ULA filtering on by default if they want to be ce=
rtified by cablelabs etc.

Let's keep in mind that there are other scenarios besides 'a home
router connected to an ISP network'.
Last time I had a Cisco router as my home DSL device it was definitely
able to route packets to/from ULAs.

> Printers could also default to only accepting connections from the contai=
ning /48 of advertised RA prefixes. This works fine for ULA and reasonably =
well for GUA in restricting traffic to =E2=80=9Cintra site=E2=80=9D

This creates a serious artificial limitation by introducing an entity
called 'a site' on the host network stack level and enforcing very
specific IPv6 address plan.

> It would work better if ISPs would hand our /48s.
...and now it affects ISPs...

What I'm trying to say is that the use case for the proposed approach
is way to narrow to justify all consequences (and inconvenience
caused).

Like we haven't had enough issues with IPv6 support on
non-phones/laptops - let's make our life even more entertaining ;)
On the other hand indeed it could be a selling point for device
vendors: 'you can print on that printer from another office building'
and 'you can actually connect to our IoT sensors from your DC/Cloud,
not just from a workstation sitting next to it'.

> > On 16 Oct 2019, at 20:19, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gma=
il.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
> >>> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
> >>> I'm not sure it's possible to know that.
> >>
> >> It *is* possible for the device to prevent its packets from going else=
where,
> >
> > Sorry I should have clarified: I'm questioning the statement that it's
> > possible (or should be done) to know at the time of manufacturing that
> > this particular
> > device should be isolated from the Internet.
> > Let's say I'm buying a printer. Or an IoT device (a sensor). How can
> > the manufacturer know if I'm going to install it at my mom's home
> > network with just one subnet (the link-local address would be
> > sufficient), at my place (with subnets, so GUAs are needed or at least
> > ULAs - but I would mean I have to configure my routers) or at my
> > office (so GUA are required for the device to work)?
> >
> > Will I need to look for 'work with multiple network segments' sticker
> > on a box before I buy a device (and shall I test it in the lab because
> > vendors tend to be overly optimistic about their products feature
> > set)?
> >
> >> assuming routers and proxies behave according to the rules and people =
aren't translating. That is a defined function of ULAs and Link-Local addre=
sses.
> >
> > Not sure about ULAs. The ULA has global scope. If a device has a
> > default gateway and ULAs only nothing would prevent it from sending
> > packets with ULA source to any destinations. The network is expected
> > to have a *policy* configured at its edge to block ULAs - so we are
> > back to 'it's a policy decision if this device should or should not
> > have  global connectivity'. Let the administrator decide.
> >
> > --
> > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>


--=20
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Hi,


> On 16 Oct 2019, at 11:19, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that a
>>> device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
>>> I'm not sure it's possible to know that.
>>=20
>> It *is* possible for the device to prevent its packets from going =
elsewhere,
>=20
> Sorry I should have clarified: I'm questioning the statement that it's
> possible (or should be done) to know at the time of manufacturing that
> this particular
> device should be isolated from the Internet.
> Let's say I'm buying a printer. Or an IoT device (a sensor). How can
> the manufacturer know if I'm going to install it at my mom's home
> network with just one subnet (the link-local address would be
> sufficient), at my place (with subnets, so GUAs are needed or at least
> ULAs - but I would mean I have to configure my routers) or at my
> office (so GUA are required for the device to work)?
>=20
> Will I need to look for 'work with multiple network segments' sticker
> on a box before I buy a device (and shall I test it in the lab because
> vendors tend to be overly optimistic about their products feature
> set)?

Ted mentioned RFC 8520 and Manufacturer Usage Descriptions.  Here the =
manufacturer can tell you what it was designed to access.  That=E2=80=99s =
not to say that you have to grant that access, but that some functions =
may be lost if you don=E2=80=99t grant that access.

For a consumer device, this can mean different things:

Device won=E2=80=99t work at all (Echos, Hey Google)
Device will work perfectly without Internet access or any local access =
(most kitchen and home appliances)
The device will lose some functionality but otherwise operate (no =
firmware updates, maybe no notifications about malfunctions, status, =
etc).

Whether you want to grant access probably should not be made based on =
the IP address, but on the network access control function.

Eliot


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 16 Oct 2019, at 11:19, Jen Linkova &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:furry13@gmail.com" class=3D"">furry13@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fred Baker &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Jen Linkova &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:furry13@gmail.com" class=3D"">furry13@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The draft says '...when it is clear =
to a device manufacturer that a<br class=3D"">device should be isolated =
from the Internet by default..'<br class=3D"">I'm not sure it's possible =
to know that.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">It *is* possible =
for the device to prevent its packets from going elsewhere,<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Sorry I should have clarified: =
I'm questioning the statement that it's<br class=3D"">possible (or =
should be done) to know at the time of manufacturing that<br =
class=3D"">this particular<br class=3D"">device should be isolated from =
the Internet.<br class=3D"">Let's say I'm buying a printer. Or an IoT =
device (a sensor). How can<br class=3D"">the manufacturer know if I'm =
going to install it at my mom's home<br class=3D"">network with just one =
subnet (the link-local address would be<br class=3D"">sufficient), at my =
place (with subnets, so GUAs are needed or at least<br class=3D"">ULAs - =
but I would mean I have to configure my routers) or at my<br =
class=3D"">office (so GUA are required for the device to work)?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Will I need to look for 'work with multiple =
network segments' sticker<br class=3D"">on a box before I buy a device =
(and shall I test it in the lab because<br class=3D"">vendors tend to be =
overly optimistic about their products feature<br class=3D"">set)?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Ted =
mentioned RFC 8520 and Manufacturer Usage Descriptions. &nbsp;Here the =
manufacturer can tell you what it was designed to access. &nbsp;That=E2=80=
=99s not to say that you have to grant that access, but that some =
functions may be lost if you don=E2=80=99t grant that =
access.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For a consumer device, this =
can mean different things:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Device won=E2=80=99t work at all =
(Echos, Hey Google)</li><li class=3D"">Device will work perfectly =
without Internet access or any local access (most kitchen and home =
appliances)</li><li class=3D"">The device will lose some functionality =
but otherwise operate (no firmware updates, maybe no notifications about =
malfunctions, status, etc).</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Whether you want to grant access =
probably should not be made based on the IP address, but on the network =
access control function.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Eliot</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Thu Oct 17 05:51:54 2019
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Default IPv6 Local Only Addressing for Non-Internet Devices (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-smith-v6ops-local-only-addressing-00.txt)
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Le 15/10/2019 à 17:02, Dmytro Shytyi a écrit :
> Hello,
> 
> From the point when device is connected to the internet it becomes a
>  Node that could be reached outside by external users. The firmware
> of such devices is updated not that frequenly. It could be 
> dangerous. From the point I put my device in DMZ in few moments i see
> in the log the "Access denied via ssh for user root". Thus, I think,
> it is an important thing the authors of the draft highlight.

True, the network topology that involves a DMZ is another way of solving
the problem.

Yet one may wonder how the address scoping solution would work together
with a network topology solution involving a DMZ.  Is ULA space to be
used within the DMZ and GUAs on both sides of it, such that to better
protect legitimate end users from attackers?

Formulating a problem statement would help.

Alex

> ______________ *Dmytro SHYTYI*
> 
> 
> ---- On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:15:53 +0200 *Gert Doering
> <gert@space.net>* wrote ----
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:11:00PM +1100, Jen Linkova wrote:
>> The draft says '...when it is clear to a device manufacturer that
>> a device should be isolated from the Internet by default..'
> 
> I'd say that most devices built by manufacturers today SHOULD be 
> isolated from the Internet... but I'm afraid that *manufacturers* are
> never going to agree that their shiny new toys are not mature 
> enough...
> 
> Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something
> today...?
> 
> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer 
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann 
> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444
> USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
> 
> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 17 06:06:09 2019
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF Working Group Agenda Analysis
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Le 16/10/2019 à 08:10, Fred Baker a écrit :
> Let me ask a question. Each time we meet, about a month before the 
> repository cut-off, I say "it's a month before the cut-off" - Speak!. 
> I barely hear crickets. When I sent this (which I share with Ron every 
> other week and we discuss), I got several replies.

On my side, I must say that I do find useful the list you post about the 
relevant Internet Drafts.

About the low noise crickets make:

I think this aspect of too low traffic when requested is due to a little 
bit of compulsive posting by many posters.  I myself am doing it so.  
Whenever in my schedule there is a result I think it deserves noting in 
v6ops I just post it: be it before a meeting, during or right after a 
meeting.   This sometimes works, other times not at all.


>
> Question for this list: is this a useful formulation of the 
> datatracker data and call to working group action? Would you like to 
> see it a few weeks before each meeting? It's what Ron and I use, in 
> addition to the datatracker itself, in figuring out our agenda. When I 
> comment on mailing list behavior, these are the links I'm following. 
> As I did in this email, I can also list action items I'm expecting - 
> such as "hint, you know who you are" - we had several people agree at 
> IETF 105 to review drafts and comment to the list...


I will not come to this meeting.  A co-author will, and we are 
interested in getting a slot, nad interested in getting discussion results.

We do have a sort of long term time plan for our draft.  We would like 
to match our time plan to the v6ops WG time plan.  We tried to talk 
about our draft whenever talk about drafts was requested.  That is the 
best we can do at this time.

But if there was a WG Milestones in a Charter, then we could adapt to 
these milestones too.

Alex

>
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Apologies for the HTML Email. Some folks complain about them. This 
> is a file I put together daily showing the status of v6ops 
> documents.This document describes the drafts associated with this 
> group. It describes their current state as seen by the RFC Editor, 
> IESG/AD, and the working or research group. For working group drafts 
> and individual submissions, it also indicates whether the draft has 
> been updated since the previous IETF meeting. Drafts that are new or 
> have been updated are "current"; other drafts are "old".
> >
> > At IETF 105, Jen discussed draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init, and 
> there was a lot of support for taking it as a working group draft. Bob 
> Hinden, 6man chair, commented that he would prefer that v6ops discuss 
> operational issues, but protocol issues be discussed in 6man. Hence, 
> Ron and I are looking for a draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init that 
> addresses the operational issues raised in this draft, and Bob and Ole 
> are looking for the protocol issues in a 6man draft. Those balls are 
> in Jen's court, but I suspect she would appreciate any help folks want 
> to offer.
> >
> > A point I'm thinking about for IETF 106 is that we don't see a lot 
> of email support for the individual submissions below. If you are 
> hoping for one of them to go somewhere, email to the list would be in 
> order. We're also interested in new drafts on IPv6 networking. If 
> you're seeking inspiration, there have been a couple of longish 
> threads on nanog@ recently. As stated in our charter, we would hope 
> they address operational issues that you see in your network(s), and 
> propose solutions. Such drafts have to be posted before November 4, as 
> that's the repository cut-off, and ideally long enough before that to 
> allow for mailing list discussion.
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 16/10/2019 à 08:10, Fred Baker a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6888C631-B184-4727-A438-97F6BFA3F60C@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
            style="font-size:10pt;">
            <div class="PlainText">Let me ask a question. Each time we
              meet, about a month before the repository cut-off, I say
              "it's a month before the cut-off" - Speak!. I barely hear
              crickets. When I sent this (which I share with Ron every
              other week and we discuss), I got several replies.<br>
            </div>
          </span></font></div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><font size="2">On my side, I must say that I do find useful the
        list you post about the relevant Internet Drafts.</font></p>
    <p><font size="2">About the low noise crickets make:</font></p>
    <p><font size="2">I think this aspect of too low traffic when
        requested is due to a little bit of compulsive posting by many
        posters.  I myself am doing it so.  Whenever in my schedule
        there is a result I think it deserves noting in v6ops I just
        post it: be it before a meeting, during or right after a
        meeting.   This sometimes works, other times not at all.</font></p>
    <p><font size="2"><br>
      </font></p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6888C631-B184-4727-A438-97F6BFA3F60C@gmail.com">
      <div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
            style="font-size:10pt;">
            <div class="PlainText">
              <br>
              Question for this list: is this a useful formulation of
              the datatracker data and call to working group action?
              Would you like to see it a few weeks before each meeting?
              It's what Ron and I use, in addition to the datatracker
              itself, in figuring out our agenda. When I comment on
              mailing list behavior, these are the links I'm following.
              As I did in this email, I can also list action items I'm
              expecting - such as "hint, you know who you are" - we had
              several people agree at IETF 105 to review drafts and
              comment to the list...<br>
            </div>
          </span></font></div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><font size="2">I will not come to this meeting.  A co-author
        will, and we are interested in getting a slot, nad interested in
        getting discussion results.<br>
      </font></p>
    <p><font size="2">We do have a sort of long term time plan for our
        draft.  We would like to match our time plan to the v6ops WG
        time plan.  We tried to talk about our draft whenever talk about
        drafts was requested.  That is the best we can do at this time.</font></p>
    <p><font size="2">But if there was a WG Milestones in a Charter, 
        then we could adapt to these milestones too.</font></p>
    <p><font size="2">Alex</font><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6888C631-B184-4727-A438-97F6BFA3F60C@gmail.com">
      <div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
            style="font-size:10pt;">
            <div class="PlainText">
              <br>
              On Oct 14, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Fred Baker
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
              &gt; Apologies for the HTML Email. Some folks complain
              about them. This is a file I put together daily showing
              the status of v6ops documents.This document describes the
              drafts associated with this group. It describes their
              current state as seen by the RFC Editor, IESG/AD, and the
              working or research group. For working group drafts and
              individual submissions, it also indicates whether the
              draft has been updated since the previous IETF meeting.
              Drafts that are new or have been updated are "current";
              other drafts are "old".<br>
              &gt; <br>
              &gt; At IETF 105, Jen discussed
              draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init, and there was a lot of
              support for taking it as a working group draft. Bob
              Hinden, 6man chair, commented that he would prefer that
              v6ops discuss operational issues, but protocol issues be
              discussed in 6man. Hence, Ron and I are looking for a
              draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init that addresses the
              operational issues raised in this draft, and Bob and Ole
              are looking for the protocol issues in a 6man draft. Those
              balls are in Jen's court, but I suspect she would
              appreciate any help folks want to offer.<br>
              &gt; <br>
              &gt; A point I'm thinking about for IETF 106 is that we
              don't see a lot of email support for the individual
              submissions below. If you are hoping for one of them to go
              somewhere, email to the list would be in order. We're also
              interested in new drafts on IPv6 networking. If you're
              seeking inspiration, there have been a couple of longish
              threads on nanog@ recently. As stated in our charter, we
              would hope they address operational issues that you see in
              your network(s), and propose solutions. Such drafts have
              to be posted before November 4, as that's the repository
              cut-off, and ideally long enough before that to allow for
              mailing list discussion.<br>
              <br>
            </div>
          </span></font></div>
      <div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
            style="font-size:10pt;">
            <div class="PlainText">_______________________________________________<br>
              v6ops mailing list<br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
              <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops"
                moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
            </div>
          </span></font></div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

--------------5406D200869A433A5FCFF781--


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Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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> On Oct 17, 2019, at 5:30 AM, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> In the past two years, China pushed the IPv6 deployment and almost all =
the IP networks of operators achieve the goal "IPv6 Ready". This provide =
a strong base for SRv6 deployments which can help operators provide new =
services based on IPv6 infrastructure.

With respect, I would suggest that before we push for SRv6 deployment, =
we develop and SRv6 use case that IPv6 doesn't support. My perception is =
that SRv6 is a solution looking for a problem.=


From nobody Thu Oct 17 17:10:49 2019
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To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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Fred,

SRv6 is the solution to build networks and provide its services under
the segment routing architecture in case of IPv6 dataplane.

Sent from my iPhone

2019/10/18 8:52=E3=80=81Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=
=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:

>
>
>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 5:30 AM, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>> In the past two years, China pushed the IPv6 deployment and almost all t=
he IP networks of operators achieve the goal "IPv6 Ready". This provide a s=
trong base for SRv6 deployments which can help operators provide new servic=
es based on IPv6 infrastructure.
>
> With respect, I would suggest that before we push for SRv6 deployment, we=
 develop and SRv6 use case that IPv6 doesn't support. My perception is that=
 SRv6 is a solution looking for a problem.


From nobody Fri Oct 18 08:29:20 2019
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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:28:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CALx6S37+UFkiKMNZuSoNG-G3VJV0DfSnqCFzfz3b+aMqeNaRkA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>,  Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/Xnm8GirNWQE3OiBRAlQPkEmNg6k>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 4:53 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 17, 2019, at 5:30 AM, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:
> >
> > In the past two years, China pushed the IPv6 deployment and almost all =
the IP networks of operators achieve the goal "IPv6 Ready". This provide a =
strong base for SRv6 deployments which can help operators provide new servi=
ces based on IPv6 infrastructure.
>
> With respect, I would suggest that before we push for SRv6 deployment, we=
 develop and SRv6 use case that IPv6 doesn't support. My perception is that=
 SRv6 is a solution looking for a problem.

A related question can be asked. Section 9 of
draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-25 shows that SRH TLVs and SRH
HMAC have not been implemented, except for HMAC in Linux which
probably doesn't conform to the latest draft. Given there's no
implementation, then it's logical to assume there's no deployment of
these and none of deployment in
draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02 use these (that
draft does not even mention TLVs) . Nevertheless, TLVs and HMAC are a
major part of SRH and 6man has exerted quite a bit of effort working
on these.

What is the use case for SR TLVs and HMAC? Why are these use cases not
already supported in IPv6 by HBH options, Destination options, or
Authentication Header?

Tom

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Bertrand Duvivier (bduvivie)" <bduvivie@cisco.com>
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>
Thread-Topic: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [spring] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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From nobody Tue Oct 22 14:11:17 2019
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To: "Bertrand Duvivier (bduvivie)" <bduvivie@cisco.com>, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [spring] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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Hmm.  That seems an overstatement.

IPv6 can carry NSH (RFC 8300) and support Service Chaining.

One can use IP-in-IP encapsulation to support FRR.

While the TE available without NSH or SR is limited capabilities.

And of course if the operators is willing to install MPLS, they can get 
all of the SRv6 capabilities by enabling MPLS (a capability all of their 
devices likely support.)

And there are costs and risks associated with deploying SRv6.

Yours,
Joel


On 10/22/2019 4:55 PM, Bertrand Duvivier (bduvivie) wrote:
> Fred,
> 
> IPv6 without SRH don't support TE, nor FRR (topology independent), nor Service Chaining, nor Network Programming, SRv6 does address all. Which what IPv4 never did, for IPv4, we had to add extra encap (MPLS,NSH,..) introducing constraints like no summarisation to deliver similar use-cases.
> 
> BTW I'm aware of
> - 5+ hardware vendors supporting SRv6
> - 4+ deployed SRv6 networks
> - 20+ network operators interested by SRv6
> - OS's supporting SRv6 like: Linux, FD.io,...
> Thus "before we push SRv6 deployement" sounds not longer an option, it is done already.
> 
> BRGDS Bertrand
> Cisco
> 
> 
> ﻿On 18/10/2019, 01:52, "spring on behalf of Fred Baker" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>      
>      > On Oct 17, 2019, at 5:30 AM, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:
>      >
>      > In the past two years, China pushed the IPv6 deployment and almost all the IP networks of operators achieve the goal "IPv6 Ready". This provide a strong base for SRv6 deployments which can help operators provide new services based on IPv6 infrastructure.
>      
>      With respect, I would suggest that before we push for SRv6 deployment, we develop and SRv6 use case that IPv6 doesn't support. My perception is that SRv6 is a solution looking for a problem.
>      _______________________________________________
>      spring mailing list
>      spring@ietf.org
>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>      
>      
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
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> 


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From: "Bertrand Duvivier (bduvivie)" <bduvivie@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>
Thread-Topic: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-02.txt
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From nobody Wed Oct 23 01:55:51 2019
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Folks,

Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion about slaac renumbering
problems. Our original I-D covered everything from the problem statement
to proposed protocol updates and operational workarounds.

Based on the comments received while discussing this topic on this list
and other forums, and in order to keep the discussion better focused on
specific aspects of the problem, we have posted a v6ops-targetted
document that focuses on:

* The problem statement
* Discussion of operational workarounds, and associated constraints

The document is available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum

We'd like to hear from the wg whether we have missed anything, whether
the document is useful to the community, etc.

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Wed Oct 23 08:08:24 2019
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From: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:51:32 -0500 ." <85b1ef40-f107-0ece-3e71-377f4d22dd46@si6networks.com> 
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:08:15 +0200
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>The document is available at:
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum

I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.

In this reply I'll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.

On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different roles.

The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e. if the
application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses
the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among multiple
candidates. Mistakenly setting the preferred lifetime of an address to zero 
may cause problems for new flows but has no impact on existing flows

In contrast setting the valid lifetime to zero immediately signals an error
condition to existing flows. This could cause a lot of trouble for long 
lived flows.

The other side of the coin is that if a host ends up with stale prefixes,
then the user maybe willing to wait for a few minutes for the situation to
resolve itself, but probably not much longer.

So the suggestion that
	AdvPreferredLifetime: AdvDefaultLifetime
is likely not sufficient to be responsive to a user. And at the same time
	AdvValidLifetime: 1.5 * AdvDefaultLifetime
is very risky if AdvDefaultLifetime is low.

Note that RFC 4861 allows MaxRtrAdvInterval to be a low as 4 seconds, 
AdvDefaultLifetime can be as low as MaxRtrAdvInterval, so also 4 seconds.

This creates a very fragile system.

At the same time, AdvDefaultLifetime is commonly 1800 seconds. Which is way
too long to wait for stale information to expire.

I agree that valid and preferred lifetimes of resp. 30 days and 7 days 
are excessive. But I'm not at all convinced that tying them to 
AdvDefaultLifetime will have a positive effect. I'm also not convinced
that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust enough 
and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.

Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. If
they are set to a couple of hours.


From nobody Wed Oct 23 09:07:53 2019
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 23/10/19 10:08, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> The document is available at:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum
> 
> I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.
> 
> In this reply I'll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.
> 
> On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different roles.
> 
> The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e. if the
> application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses
> the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among multiple
> candidates. Mistakenly setting the preferred lifetime of an address to zero 
> may cause problems for new flows but has no impact on existing flows
> 
> In contrast setting the valid lifetime to zero immediately signals an error
> condition to existing flows. This could cause a lot of trouble for long 
> lived flows.
> 
> The other side of the coin is that if a host ends up with stale prefixes,
> then the user maybe willing to wait for a few minutes for the situation to
> resolve itself, but probably not much longer.

Agreed.



> So the suggestion that
> 	AdvPreferredLifetime: AdvDefaultLifetime
> is likely not sufficient to be responsive to a user. And at the same time
> 	AdvValidLifetime: 1.5 * AdvDefaultLifetime
> is very risky if AdvDefaultLifetime is low.
> 
> Note that RFC 4861 allows MaxRtrAdvInterval to be a low as 4 seconds, 
> AdvDefaultLifetime can be as low as MaxRtrAdvInterval, so also 4 seconds.
> 
> This creates a very fragile system.

I may agree. That said, note that according to RFC7772, you'd never send
RAs at a high frequency such as once as every 4 seconds.



> At the same time, AdvDefaultLifetime is commonly 1800 seconds. Which is way
> too long to wait for stale information to expire.
> 
> I agree that valid and preferred lifetimes of resp. 30 days and 7 days 
> are excessive. But I'm not at all convinced that tying them to 
> AdvDefaultLifetime will have a positive effect.

I'd say that at the very least the Preferred lifetime shouldn't be
larger than AdvDefaultLifetime (what's the point of preferring an
address you don't have a router for?).

I do agree with your analysis of the valid lifetime -- is trickier.



> I'm also not convinced
> that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust enough 
> and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.
> 
> Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. If
> they are set to a couple of hours.

I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you correctly
note, would help against build up of stale prefixes.


A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Thu Oct 24 00:43:06 2019
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:07:20 -0500 ." <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> 
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 09:42:58 +0200
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/H9QYAavANDDwC0k6aHrPosiV_oI>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
>lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
>the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
>contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
>additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.

I think that to avoid confusion it is probably best to have 3 documents:
- one that describes host behavior. I think that what you describe above would
  fit in such a document. There is a lot we can do to make hosts more robust.
- one that describes CPE behavior. If the CPE explicitly deprecates old
  prefixes then that solves the problem with CPE reboots. Having
  more sensible lifetimes fits in such a document, but I don't think it
  provides a solution. It just reduces some secondary effects such as
  stale prefix build up.
- Finally, a document for ISPs describing how to best provide prefixes 
  using DHCPv6-PD. 

I think all 3 approaches are needed:
- a host doesn't want to rely on a cheap CPE doing its job.
- a quality CPE can provide better support for hosts today. There will always
  be ISPs that do flash renumbering
- finally a quality ISP may have a need to renumber customers and would like
  to do so without breaking things.


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 19:17:45 +1100
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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 03:08 Fernando Gont, <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:

> On 23/10/19 10:08, Philip Homburg wrote:
> >> The document is available at:
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum
> >
> > I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.
> >
> > In this reply I'll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.
> >
> > On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different roles.
> >
> > The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e. if the
> > application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses
> > the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among multiple
> > candidates.



Actually it doesn't, according to SA selection in RFC 6724.

It's easy to think that, which is why I have in the past.

I've even thought about proposing it, however when you think about it, you
realise there are cases where it wouldn't work. The largest preferred
lifetime address isn't always the best SA to use.

For example, say you wanted to renumber a network. At the same time, you
want to have a lower preferred and valid lifetime for the new prefix
(perhaps it was set too high when the network was built). Yet the as the
old addresses still have larger preferred lifetimes, they would be
preferred.

What you're really trying to choose is the newest addresses learned by the
host. Preferred lifetime doesn't really always tell you that.

I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft.
Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always planned
to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised
that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.

Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same location,
then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery location is.



Mistakenly setting the preferred lifetime of an address to zero
> > may cause problems for new flows but has no impact on existing flows
> >
> > In contrast setting the valid lifetime to zero immediately signals an
> error
> > condition to existing flows. This could cause a lot of trouble for long
> > lived flows.
> >
> > The other side of the coin is that if a host ends up with stale prefixes,
> > then the user maybe willing to wait for a few minutes for the situation
> to
> > resolve itself, but probably not much longer.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> > So the suggestion that
> >       AdvPreferredLifetime: AdvDefaultLifetime
> > is likely not sufficient to be responsive to a user. And at the same time
> >       AdvValidLifetime: 1.5 * AdvDefaultLifetime
> > is very risky if AdvDefaultLifetime is low.
> >
> > Note that RFC 4861 allows MaxRtrAdvInterval to be a low as 4 seconds,
> > AdvDefaultLifetime can be as low as MaxRtrAdvInterval, so also 4 seconds.
> >
> > This creates a very fragile system.
>
> I may agree. That said, note that according to RFC7772, you'd never send
> RAs at a high frequency such as once as every 4 seconds.
>
>
>
> > At the same time, AdvDefaultLifetime is commonly 1800 seconds. Which is
> way
> > too long to wait for stale information to expire.
> >
> > I agree that valid and preferred lifetimes of resp. 30 days and 7 days
> > are excessive. But I'm not at all convinced that tying them to
> > AdvDefaultLifetime will have a positive effect.
>
> I'd say that at the very least the Preferred lifetime shouldn't be
> larger than AdvDefaultLifetime (what's the point of preferring an
> address you don't have a router for?).
>
> I do agree with your analysis of the valid lifetime -- is trickier.
>
>
>
> > I'm also not convinced
> > that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust
> enough
> > and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.
> >
> > Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. If
> > they are set to a couple of hours.
>
> I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you correctly
> note, would help against build up of stale prefixes.
>
>
> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--000000000000a986d80595a3ab57
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 03:08 Fernando Gont, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">On 23/10/19 10:08, Philip Homburg wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; The document is available at:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renu=
m" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In this reply I&#39;ll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different role=
s.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e. if t=
he<br>
&gt; application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses=
<br>
&gt; the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among multipl=
e<br>
&gt; candidates. </blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Actually it doesn&#39;t, according=
 to SA selection in RFC 6724.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">It&#39;s easy to think that, which is why I have in the past.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ve even thought about pro=
posing it, however when you think about it, you realise there are cases whe=
re it wouldn&#39;t work. The largest preferred lifetime address isn&#39;t a=
lways the best SA to use.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">For example, say you wanted to renumber a network. At the same time, you =
want to have a lower preferred and valid lifetime for the new prefix (perha=
ps it was set too high when the network was built). Yet the as the old addr=
esses still have larger preferred lifetimes, they would be preferred.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">What you&#39;re really trying=
 to choose is the newest addresses learned by the host. Preferred lifetime =
doesn&#39;t really always tell you that.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario =
of this draft. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on =
always planned to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario =
and realised that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable pr=
efixes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Fundamentally, i=
f an ISP is selling an always on link to the same location, then the addres=
sing should be as permanent as the link delivery location is.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">Mistakenly setting the preferred lifetime of an address to zero <br>
&gt; may cause problems for new flows but has no impact on existing flows<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In contrast setting the valid lifetime to zero immediately signals an =
error<br>
&gt; condition to existing flows. This could cause a lot of trouble for lon=
g <br>
&gt; lived flows.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The other side of the coin is that if a host ends up with stale prefix=
es,<br>
&gt; then the user maybe willing to wait for a few minutes for the situatio=
n to<br>
&gt; resolve itself, but probably not much longer.<br>
<br>
Agreed.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; So the suggestion that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0AdvPreferredLifetime: AdvDefaultLifetime<br>
&gt; is likely not sufficient to be responsive to a user. And at the same t=
ime<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0AdvValidLifetime: 1.5 * AdvDefaultLifetime<b=
r>
&gt; is very risky if AdvDefaultLifetime is low.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Note that RFC 4861 allows MaxRtrAdvInterval to be a low as 4 seconds, =
<br>
&gt; AdvDefaultLifetime can be as low as MaxRtrAdvInterval, so also 4 secon=
ds.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This creates a very fragile system.<br>
<br>
I may agree. That said, note that according to RFC7772, you&#39;d never sen=
d<br>
RAs at a high frequency such as once as every 4 seconds.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; At the same time, AdvDefaultLifetime is commonly 1800 seconds. Which i=
s way<br>
&gt; too long to wait for stale information to expire.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I agree that valid and preferred lifetimes of resp. 30 days and 7 days=
 <br>
&gt; are excessive. But I&#39;m not at all convinced that tying them to <br=
>
&gt; AdvDefaultLifetime will have a positive effect.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d say that at the very least the Preferred lifetime shouldn&#39;t be<=
br>
larger than AdvDefaultLifetime (what&#39;s the point of preferring an<br>
address you don&#39;t have a router for?).<br>
<br>
I do agree with your analysis of the valid lifetime -- is trickier.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;m also not convinced<br>
&gt; that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust eno=
ugh <br>
&gt; and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. =
If<br>
&gt; they are set to a couple of hours.<br>
<br>
I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you correctly<br>
note, would help against build up of stale prefixes.<br>
<br>
<br>
A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid<br>
lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack<br>
the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not<br=
>
contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two<br>
additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
-- <br>
Fernando Gont<br>
SI6 Networks<br>
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a><br>
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
References: <85b1ef40-f107-0ece-3e71-377f4d22dd46@si6networks.com>
From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Le 23/10/2019 à 10:51, Fernando Gont a écrit :
> Folks,
> 
> Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion about slaac renumbering
> problems. Our original I-D covered everything from the problem statement
> to proposed protocol updates and operational workarounds.
> 
> Based on the comments received while discussing this topic on this list
> and other forums, and in order to keep the discussion better focused on
> specific aspects of the problem, we have posted a v6ops-targetted
> document that focuses on:
> 
> * The problem statement
> * Discussion of operational workarounds, and associated constraints
> 
> The document is available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum
> 
> We'd like to hear from the wg whether we have missed anything, whether
> the document is useful to the community, etc.

The document is useful because it sheds light on an existing problem 
that is not described elsewhere.

In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.

First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed /56 
allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it is not 
obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed by hand. 
Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this 
draft.

Second, with respect to this text:
> o  The most common deployment scenario for IPv6 in home networks is
>       that in which a CPE router employs DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation
>       (DHCPv6-PD) [RFC8415] to request a prefix from an Internet Service
>       Provider (ISP), and a sub-prefix of the leased prefix is
>       advertised on the LAN-side of the CPE router via Stateless Address
>       Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) [RFC4862].  In scenarios where the CPE
>       router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be leased (via DHCPv6-PD)
>       a different prefix from the one previously leased, and therefore
>       advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN side.

I agree with this deployment scenario.  We have used a similar scenario 
here in the lab (not at home).  We wrote a 'DANIR' draft that describes 
the implementation: the IoT Router (similar to a CPE) requests a prefix 
with DHCPv6-PD and then forms /64s and advertises them on the Ethernet link.

I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, 
form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not 
exist as open source or some other available package.

Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common 
deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be 'common'?

Then, a list of bullets follow, with more scenarios.

I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:

- an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors to 
the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box at a 
traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller 
connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router is connected on 4G.

- a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a car. 
  This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface.  There are 
several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.

One may think about fitting these proposed two scenarios (IoT, and 
vehicles) into the three others ('switch-port VLAN', 'planned network 
renumbering' or 'automated device config mgmt').  But these scenarios 
sound more like Enterprise.  IoTs and vehicles rarely if ever involve 
VLANs or planned network renumberng.

Alex

> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Cheers,
> 


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From: Trevor Warwick <twarwick@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:57:26 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--000000000000c9b3790595a51632
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On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft.
> Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always planned
> to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised
> that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.
>
> Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same
> location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery
> location is.
>
>
If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes, what
are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the prefixes
stable?

- You could be running a closed environment where all customers are forced
to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has various
 hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid customer
hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe you can
make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don't want to use
your CPE are just out of luck.

- If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE, then
it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems when
the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle this
situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly
to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which case, I'd
wonder why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.

I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for this
context and the others mentioned in the draft.

--000000000000c9b3790595a51632
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"auto"><div><br><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I thought about this in the=
 exact context of the scenario of this draft. Although the design of the br=
oadband deployment I worked on always planned to give out stable prefixes, =
I worked through this scenario and realised that so many complex issues dis=
appear if you provide stable prefixes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the=
 same location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link deli=
very location is.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></blockquote><div>=
=C2=A0</div><div>If you&#39;re an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand ou=
t IPv6 prefixes, what are the possible scenarios if you don&#39;t try hard =
to keep the prefixes stable?</div><div><br></div><div>- You could be runnin=
g a closed environment where all customers are forced to use your CPE, in w=
hich case you can make sure that your CPE has various=C2=A0 =C2=A0hacks add=
ed to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid customer hosts experien=
cing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe you can make this work=
 well enough, and advanced customers who don&#39;t want to use your CPE are=
 just out of luck.</div><div><br></div><div>- If you&#39;re in an environme=
nt where customers can chose their=C2=A0own CPE, then it seems almost guara=
nteed that there will be connectivity problems when the prefix changes, bec=
ause many CPE implementations don&#39;t handle this situation at all. So yo=
u&#39;re then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly to IPv4, in order to=
 continue to have connectivity. In which case, I&#39;d wonder why you&#39;r=
e bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I do think this is an important problem that needs to be sol=
ved, for this context and the others mentioned in the draft.<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div></div>

--000000000000c9b3790595a51632--


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft.
>> Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always planned
>> to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised
>> that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.
>>
>> Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same
>> location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery
>> location is.
>>
>>
> If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes,
> what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the prefixes
> stable?
>

Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad
experience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best suitable
service you can give them.


> - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are forced
> to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has various
>  hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid customer
> hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe you can
> make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don't want to use
> your CPE are just out of luck.
>
> - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE,
> then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems
> when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle this
> situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly
> to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which case, I'd
> wonder why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.
>

See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed location, and
the addressing having the same amount of stability as the service and link
itself.

The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally
continued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although they
were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP
address pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a single
IPv4 address when they attach, that can change each time they attach. PPPoE
is making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up connectivity.

Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6
services, where it's even less applicable now that customers get their own
routed address space on a semi-permanent link.

Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the same
prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route aggregation
boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a region.

Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the service
they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.

If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the only
choice.

See slide 6.

Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-observations




> I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for this
> context and the others mentioned in the draft.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:twarwick@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">twarwick@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:1=
8, Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I thought about th=
is in the exact context of the scenario of this draft. Although the design =
of the broadband deployment I worked on always planned to give out stable p=
refixes, I worked through this scenario and realised that so many complex i=
ssues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on li=
nk to the same location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the =
link delivery location is.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>If you&#39;re an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD t=
o hand out IPv6 prefixes, what are the possible scenarios if you don&#39;t =
try hard to keep the prefixes stable?</div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Why don&#39;t you want t=
o try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad experience. They&#39;re p=
aying you to try hard to give them the best suitable service you can give t=
hem.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div><br></div><div>- You could be running a closed environment whe=
re all customers are forced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sur=
e that your CPE has various=C2=A0 =C2=A0hacks added to try to cope with pre=
fix instability and avoid customer hosts experiencing connectivity issues w=
hen prefixes change. Maybe you can make this work well enough, and advanced=
 customers who don&#39;t want to use your CPE are just out of luck.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>- If you&#39;re in an environment where customers can cho=
se their=C2=A0own CPE, then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be c=
onnectivity problems when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementati=
ons don&#39;t handle this situation at all. So you&#39;re then relying on h=
osts falling back seamlessly to IPv4, in order to continue to have connecti=
vity. In which case, I&#39;d wonder why you&#39;re bothering to provide an =
IPv6 service in the first place.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See what I said about s=
elling an always on service to a fixed location, and the addressing having =
the same amount of stability as the service and link itself.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The reason this problem really exists=
 is that ISPs have fundamentally continued to treat residential, always on =
broadband customers although they were still dial up customers. Nothing has=
 changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP address pools, pool route aggregation at the r=
outer, customer gets a single IPv4 address when they attach, that can chang=
e each time they attach. PPPoE is making Ethernet connectivity resemble dia=
l up connectivity.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Now t=
his dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6 services, =
where it&#39;s even less applicable now that customers get their own routed=
 address space on a semi-permanent link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so th=
ey get the same prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the ro=
ute aggregation boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or =
a region.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Use an IPv6 ad=
dress provisioning model that suites and matches the service they&#39;re pa=
ying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable =
prefixes are the only choice.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">See slide 6.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:helveticaneue-light,&quot;helv=
etica neue light&quot;,&quot;helvetica neue&quot;,helvetica,arial,&quot;luc=
ida grande&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:600;background-color=
:rgb(68,68,68)">Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observation=
s</span><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://www.slideshare.net/m=
obile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-observatio=
ns" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.slideshare.=
net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-obser=
vations</a></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><br></div><div>I do think this is an important problem that needs to be so=
lved, for this context and the others mentioned in the draft.<br></div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000b36bfa0595a5b505--


From nobody Thu Oct 24 03:47:17 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:47:08 +0200
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/rMJYlrMAOalNKww2Ou-05OyxO7k>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Mark,

Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding =
behind NAT, it makes it harder.
Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?

Cheers,
Ole

> On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this =
draft. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on =
always planned to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this =
scenario and realised that so many complex issues disappear if you =
provide stable prefixes.
>=20
> Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same =
location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link =
delivery location is.
>=20
> =20
> If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes, =
what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the =
prefixes stable?
>=20
> Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad =
experience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best =
suitable service you can give them.
>=20
>=20
> - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are =
forced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE =
has various   hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and =
avoid customer hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes =
change. Maybe you can make this work well enough, and advanced customers =
who don't want to use your CPE are just out of luck.
>=20
> - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE, =
then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems =
when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle =
this situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back =
seamlessly to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which =
case, I'd wonder why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the =
first place.=20
>=20
> See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed =
location, and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the =
service and link itself.
>=20
> The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally =
continued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although =
they were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) =
IP address pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a =
single IPv4 address when they attach, that can change each time they =
attach. PPPoE is making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up =
connectivity.
>=20
> Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6 =
services, where it's even less applicable now that customers get their =
own routed address space on a semi-permanent link.
>=20
> Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the =
same prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route =
aggregation boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a =
region.
>=20
> Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the =
service they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.
>=20
> If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the only =
choice.
>=20
> See slide 6.
>=20
> Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
> =
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-n=
ot-to-do-and-other-observations
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for =
this context and the others mentioned in the draft.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 24/10/19 05:47, Ole Troan wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
> IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.
> Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?

Maybe honor the "E" in IETF? :-)

P.S.: The ISP renumbers the residential user is just one of many reasons
for which this scenario could take place.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Thu Oct 24 04:13:28 2019
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:13:05 +1100
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: Trevor Warwick <twarwick@gmail.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 21:47 Ole Troan, <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
> IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding
> behind NAT, it makes it harder.
> Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
>

I think the issue could be not real knowing or thinking about any
alternatives and not knowing that while it may have been possible to
continue to follow the dial up model for IPv4 with NAT, that model can't be
stretched to accommodate IPv6 and delegated prefixes without causing the
issues in the draft.

So an Informational RFC?



> Cheers,
> Ole
>
> > On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft.
> Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always planned
> to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised
> that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.
> >
> > Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same
> location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery
> location is.
> >
> >
> > If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes,
> what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the prefixes
> stable?
> >
> > Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad
> experience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best suitable
> service you can give them.
> >
> >
> > - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are
> forced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has
> various   hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid
> customer hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe
> you can make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don't want
> to use your CPE are just out of luck.
> >
> > - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE,
> then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems
> when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle this
> situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly
> to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which case, I'd
> wonder why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.
> >
> > See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed location,
> and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the service and
> link itself.
> >
> > The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally
> continued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although they
> were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP
> address pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a single
> IPv4 address when they attach, that can change each time they attach. PPPoE
> is making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up connectivity.
> >
> > Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6
> services, where it's even less applicable now that customers get their own
> routed address space on a semi-permanent link.
> >
> > Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the
> same prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route
> aggregation boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a
> region.
> >
> > Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the
> service they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.
> >
> > If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the only
> choice.
> >
> > See slide 6.
> >
> > Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
> >
> https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-observations
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for
> this context and the others mentioned in the draft.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>

--000000000000bb041b0595a61e43
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 21:47 Ole Troan, &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">otroan@emp=
loyees.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Mark,<br=
>
<br>
Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.<br>
IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding behind=
 NAT, it makes it harder.<br>
Apart from &quot;does not work&quot;, what more can the IETF say or do here=
?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>I think the issue could be not real knowing or thinking about any alternat=
ives and not knowing that while it may have been possible to continue to fo=
llow the dial up model for IPv4 with NAT, that model can&#39;t be stretched=
 to accommodate IPv6 and delegated prefixes without causing the issues in t=
he draft.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So an Informat=
ional RFC?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Ole<br>
<br>
&gt; On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmit=
h@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmith@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:twarw=
ick@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">twarwick@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzz=
smith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmi=
th@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draf=
t. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always plann=
ed to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised=
 that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same loca=
tion, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery locat=
ion is.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; If you&#39;re an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefi=
xes, what are the possible scenarios if you don&#39;t try hard to keep the =
prefixes stable?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Why don&#39;t you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a =
bad experience. They&#39;re paying you to try hard to give them the best su=
itable service you can give them.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are fo=
rced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has var=
ious=C2=A0 =C2=A0hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avo=
id customer hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Ma=
ybe you can make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don&#39;=
t want to use your CPE are just out of luck.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - If you&#39;re in an environment where customers can chose their own =
CPE, then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity proble=
ms when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don&#39;t hand=
le this situation at all. So you&#39;re then relying on hosts falling back =
seamlessly to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which cas=
e, I&#39;d wonder why you&#39;re bothering to provide an IPv6 service in th=
e first place. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed location=
, and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the service and=
 link itself.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally =
continued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although they=
 were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP addr=
ess pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a single IPv=
4 address when they attach, that can change each time they attach. PPPoE is=
 making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up connectivity.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6 =
services, where it&#39;s even less applicable now that customers get their =
own routed address space on a semi-permanent link.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the s=
ame prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route aggregat=
ion boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a region.<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the ser=
vice they&#39;re paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the only=
 choice.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; See slide 6.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-=
ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-observations" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsm=
ith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-not-to-do-and-other-observations</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for t=
his context and the others mentioned in the draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/v6ops</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000bb041b0595a61e43--


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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hello, Philip,

On 24/10/19 02:42, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
>> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
>> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
>> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
>> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
> 
> I think that to avoid confusion it is probably best to have 3 documents:
> - one that describes host behavior. I think that what you describe above would
>   fit in such a document. There is a lot we can do to make hosts more robust.

Agreed. FWIW, We should have such document ready this weekend.


> - one that describes CPE behavior. If the CPE explicitly deprecates old
>   prefixes then that solves the problem with CPE reboots. Having
>   more sensible lifetimes fits in such a document, but I don't think it
>   provides a solution. It just reduces some secondary effects such as
>   stale prefix build up.

Agreed


> - Finally, a document for ISPs describing how to best provide prefixes 
>   using DHCPv6-PD. 
> 
> I think all 3 approaches are needed:
> - a host doesn't want to rely on a cheap CPE doing its job.
> - a quality CPE can provide better support for hosts today. There will always
>   be ISPs that do flash renumbering
> - finally a quality ISP may have a need to renumber customers and would like
>   to do so without breaking things.

I fully agree with your assessment. That said, maybe the first step is
to start with a problem statement, as with this document?

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 24/10/19 03:17, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 03:08 Fernando Gont, <fgont@si6networks.com
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 23/10/19 10:08, Philip Homburg wrote:
>     >> The document is available at:
>     >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum
>     >
>     > I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.
>     >
>     > In this reply I'll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.
>     >
>     > On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different
>     roles.
>     >
>     > The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e.
>     if the
>     > application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses
>     > the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among
>     multiple
>     > candidates. 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it doesn't, according to SA selection in RFC 6724.>
> It's easy to think that, which is why I have in the past.

Using the preferred lifetime for SAS makes the source address flap if
there are multiple prefixes on the local network. This is not nice for
troubleshooting.



> I've even thought about proposing it, however when you think about it,
> you realise there are cases where it wouldn't work. The largest
> preferred lifetime address isn't always the best SA to use.

Indeed. And while there are recommended defaults, multiple routers might
be using different preferred lifetimes for the prefixes they advertise.



> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft.
> Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always
> planned to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and
> realised that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable
> prefixes.

FWIW, we're not against stable prefixes. We recognize there are
scenarios in which they will not be stable, and we want the network to
be robust in such scenarios.

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
CC: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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+1 !

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
=20
=20

=EF=BB=BFEl 24/10/19 15:12, "v6ops en nombre de Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <v6o=
ps-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de evyncke@cisco.com> escribi=C3=B3:

    Ole
   =20
    What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD=
 prefix considered harmful" ?
   =20
    -=C3=A9ric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)
   =20
   =20
    =EF=BB=BFOn 24/10/2019, 12:47, "v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan" <v6ops-bo=
unces@ietf.org on behalf of otroan@employees.org> wrote:
   =20
        Mark,
       =20
        Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
        IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hidin=
g behind NAT, it makes it harder.
        Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
       =20
        Cheers,
        Ole
    =20
   =20
    _______________________________________________
    v6ops mailing list
    v6ops@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
   =20



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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Eric,

> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable =
DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?

Perhaps, but isn't there a long list of documents the IETF has produced =
on IPV6 renumbering already?
Would a new document say anything new and more useful?

And it's not like DHCPv6 PD (RFC3633) isn't clear either. =46rom the =
abstract:

   The Prefix Delegation options provide a mechanism for automated
   delegation of IPv6 prefixes using the Dynamic Host Configuration
   Protocol (DHCP).  This mechanism is intended for delegating a long-
   lived prefix from a delegating router to a requesting router, across
   an administrative boundary, where the delegating router does not
   require knowledge about the topology of the links in the network to
   which the prefixes will be assigned.


That said, if people want to write a "IPv6 networks need stable =
prefixes" document, go ahead.
I'm skeptical that playing with prefix timers and protocol mechanisms =
will do more than put lipstick on the pig. Iff we wanted to solve =
ephemeral addressing / connectivity, that's would require something =
else.

Best regards,
Ole=


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Le 24/10/2019 à 15:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a écrit :
>  [...] "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?

Risks being shortened to an as harmful 'DHCP-PD considered harmful'.

Alex

> 
> -éric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)
> 
> 
> ﻿On 24/10/2019, 12:47, "v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan" <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> 
>      Mark,
>      
>      Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
>      IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.
>      Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
>      
>      Cheers,
>      Ole
>   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 23, 2019, at 08:08 , Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>=20
>> The document is available at:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum
>=20
> I think this is an important subject that is worth fixing.
>=20
> In this reply I'll focus on the preferred and valid lifetimes.
>=20
> On a host, the preferred and valid lifetimes play quite different =
roles.
>=20
> The preferred lifetime plays a role in setting up new flows. I.e. if =
the
> application does not provide a source address then the IPv6 layer uses
> the preferred lifetime to select the best source address among =
multiple
> candidates. Mistakenly setting the preferred lifetime of an address to =
zero=20
> may cause problems for new flows but has no impact on existing flows
>=20
> In contrast setting the valid lifetime to zero immediately signals an =
error
> condition to existing flows. This could cause a lot of trouble for =
long=20
> lived flows.
>=20
> The other side of the coin is that if a host ends up with stale =
prefixes,
> then the user maybe willing to wait for a few minutes for the =
situation to
> resolve itself, but probably not much longer.
>=20
> So the suggestion that
> 	AdvPreferredLifetime: AdvDefaultLifetime
> is likely not sufficient to be responsive to a user. And at the same =
time
> 	AdvValidLifetime: 1.5 * AdvDefaultLifetime
> is very risky if AdvDefaultLifetime is low.
>=20
> Note that RFC 4861 allows MaxRtrAdvInterval to be a low as 4 seconds,=20=

> AdvDefaultLifetime can be as low as MaxRtrAdvInterval, so also 4 =
seconds.
>=20
> This creates a very fragile system.
>=20
> At the same time, AdvDefaultLifetime is commonly 1800 seconds. Which =
is way
> too long to wait for stale information to expire.

Isn=E2=80=99t the issue of stale information strictly under the control =
of the person running
the router(s)?

I mean during normal operations, 1800 seconds seems like a reasonable =
default
to me. In an environment where you are depending on routers advertising =
different
prefixes on the same network for redundancy (you=E2=80=99ve kind of =
cobbled things
poorly to begin with), you=E2=80=99ll want to select a shorter time, =
certainly, but then you
have that option. In a more traditional environment where you have =
multiple
routers announcing the same prefix providing redundancy, then it seems =
to me
that the prefix only goes stale during a renumber event.

The procedure for renumbering a SLAAC network should be relatively =
straightforward=E2=80=A6

1.	Configure and test new prefix on routers and perhaps a few test =
hosts with manual
	configuration.

2.	Begin announcing new prefix via RAs.

3.	Note the Valid Lifetime for the old prefix. (Tvold).

4.	Take the old prefix out of the RAs (leave it fully configured on =
the routers).

5.	Wait some time greater than Tvold for the old prefix to expire.

6.	Remove the old prefix from the routers.

> I agree that valid and preferred lifetimes of resp. 30 days and 7 days=20=

> are excessive. But I'm not at all convinced that tying them to=20
> AdvDefaultLifetime will have a positive effect. I'm also not convinced
> that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust =
enough=20
> and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.

Any tying of them to AdvDefaultLifetime should be merely for the purpose =
of
establishing a default, which seems a reasonable process. Certainly =
there
is a need for the Valid and Preferred lifetimes to be =E2=89=A5 =
MaxRtrAdvInterval
which must be =E2=89=A4 AdvDefaultLifetime for things to function at =
all.

> Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. =
If
> they are set to a couple of hours.

Shouldn=E2=80=99t this be an individual administrative decision on a =
site-by-site
basis?

If we=E2=80=99re looking to set more rational defaults or provide advice =
on better
defaults to administrators and/or product developers, then perhaps we
should provide a context-aware set of rational defaults for these =
variables.

IMHO, there are a number of contexts each of which would likely need
different values to achieve an optimum balance:

	Single-homed household or SMB end-user
	Multi-homed multi-prefix household or SMB end-user
	Multi-homed single-prefix (BGP) end site
	Enterprise Environment
	Transit Network (would you even use SLAAC here?)
	Others?

Owen

=09


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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> I'm also not convinced
>> that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust =
enough=20
>> and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at =
hand.
>>=20
>> Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. =
If
>> they are set to a couple of hours.
>=20
> I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you correctly
> note, would help against build up of stale prefixes.

I do agree that 7 and 30 days, respectively are absurd timer default =
values.

I think we can take some lessons from IPv4 and DHCP here. A fairly =
common
lease time in the DHCP world is 3600 seconds (1 hour). This seems like a
reasonable default preferred lifetime and I would propose that 1 day =
(86400)
seconds may well be a reasonable default valid lifetime.

It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator =
and the
RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.

With the following exception, I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying this on =
the client
side:
	+	Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to =
specifically
		allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a =
valid
		lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
		this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.

I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to CPE =
and
router behavior should be standardized and implemented.

> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that =
lack
> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do =
not
> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.

In the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a single =
router on the network or
at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with no =
persistent
memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a =
scenario,
it seems to me that the following are also likely valid assumptions:

	+	The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to =
demand.
	+	The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes =
is probably
		an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.

However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those =
assumptions
won=E2=80=99t hold true and we should not seek to solve this problem =
(which is generally
applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of all of =
those
other professionally administered environments.

For

For the busy wifi scenario, the preferred lifetime of zero for the old =
PIO should be
sent many times and should be maintained in the configuration for at =
least
OldPreferredLifetime seconds. At the end of OldPreferredLifetime =
seconds,
if a host hasn=E2=80=99t seen the new RA, it will no longer matter as =
the last RA it saw
will have expired. It=E2=80=99s not ideal, but there really aren=E2=80=99t=
 a lot of good options here
other than getting WiFi vendors to improve multicast reliability.

In your automated configuration management scenario, IMHO, the people
driving the automation have erred. The related case is, IMHO, a variant
of the exact same case and represents the same error. It is still =
operator
error regardless of whether the operator is driving an automation =
system,
or is directly configuring a router. At a certain point, we need to =
accept that
there is a limit to the acceptable gymnastics for the prevention of =
operator
error. The best colloquialism here is =E2=80=9CIf you make something =
completely
idiot proof, the world will invent a better idiot.=E2=80=9D

In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their =
previous values
for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and the
announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate =
that
the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer be
considered on-link.

Is there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly
with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?

Finally, An editorial note=E2=80=A6 In Section 3, you state =E2=80=9CFinal=
ly, Section 2.5 analyzes=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
I believe this is intended to be a reference to section 3.2.2.


Owen



--Apple-Mail=_BBA4E4E1-A862-425B-8B3B-07C74BE29715
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I'm =
also not convinced<br class=3D"">that there are sensible values for =
these lifetimes that are robust enough<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">and at the =
same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Reducing the lifetimes would help against =
build up of stale prefixes. If<br class=3D"">they are set to a couple of =
hours.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you =
correctly</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">note, would =
help against build up of stale prefixes.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I do agree that 7 and 30 days, respectively are =
absurd timer default values.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think =
we can take some lessons from IPv4 and DHCP here. A fairly =
common</div><div>lease time in the DHCP world is 3600 seconds (1 hour). =
This seems like a</div><div>reasonable default preferred lifetime and I =
would propose that 1 day (86400)</div><div>seconds may well be a =
reasonable default valid lifetime.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It =
is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator and =
the</div><div>RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded =
value.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>With the following exception, =
I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying this on the =
client</div><div>side:</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>+<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should =
be amended to specifically</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>allow the immediate =
deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to =
honor</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
	</span>this as a signal that the prefix is no longer =
valid.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I do think that generally =
speaking, your proposed modifications to CPE and</div><div>router =
behavior should be standardized and implemented.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">A better =
mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">lifetimes in response to =
consecutive RAs from the same router that lack</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the original (stale) prefix. =
e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">contain the existing prefix, =
reduce the preferred lifetime. After two</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div></div><div>In =
the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a single =
router on the network or</div><div>at least only one router announcing =
the prefix(es) in question with no persistent</div><div>memory of the =
prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a =
scenario,</div><div>it seems to me that the following are also likely =
valid assumptions:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>+<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>The =
network has significant excess bandwidth compared to =
demand.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>+<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>The small overhead of frequent =
RAs and short lifetimes is probably</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>However, there are lots of other scenarios in the =
world where those assumptions</div><div>won=E2=80=99t hold true and we =
should not seek to solve this problem (which is =
generally</div><div>applicable to residential and SMB environments) at =
the expense of all of those</div><div>other professionally administered =
environments.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>For the busy wifi scenario, the preferred lifetime =
of zero for the old PIO should be</div><div>sent many times and should =
be maintained in the configuration for at =
least</div><div>OldPreferredLifetime seconds. At the end of =
OldPreferredLifetime seconds,</div><div>if a host hasn=E2=80=99t seen =
the new RA, it will no longer matter as the last RA it =
saw</div><div>will have expired. It=E2=80=99s not ideal, but there =
really aren=E2=80=99t a lot of good options here</div><div>other than =
getting WiFi vendors to improve multicast reliability.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In your automated configuration management =
scenario, IMHO, the people</div><div>driving the automation have erred. =
The related case is, IMHO, a variant</div><div>of the exact same case =
and represents the same error. It is still operator</div><div>error =
regardless of whether the operator is driving an automation =
system,</div><div>or is directly configuring a router. At a certain =
point, we need to accept that</div><div>there is a limit to the =
acceptable gymnastics for the prevention of operator</div><div>error. =
The best colloquialism here is =E2=80=9CIf you make something =
completely</div><div>idiot proof, the world will invent a better =
idiot.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In section 3.2.1, =
you advocate setting the A and L bits to their previous =
values</div><div>for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is =
incorrect and the</div><div>announcements calling for immediate =
deprecation should also indicate that</div><div>the prefix should no =
longer be auto-configured and should no longer be</div><div>considered =
on-link.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Is there some unfortunate =
widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly</div><div>with setting A =
and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Finally, An editorial note=E2=80=A6 In Section 3, =
you state =E2=80=9CFinally, Section 2.5 analyzes=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D</div><d=
iv>I believe this is intended to be a reference to section =
3.2.2.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_BBA4E4E1-A862-425B-8B3B-07C74BE29715--


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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
References: <m1iNIFE-0000IwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> <CAO42Z2x7vudujw5t++obry56g=VNjQXXTHFK8pBPk0jmk78Bcg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJoHkZ8pTjszP0vw4BjX0HUhmPa6wJONzdy2JEm5iqAfBUvjRg@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2wCYi4KWTEz1hUSPVr9+hu8GaHRkPuvQQ2P00knvnPaaQ@mail.gmail.com> <848BA3B3-36B4-4C42-86D0-88759BC45D5A@employees.org> <A61279DA-4678-4A10-9117-6CA227AE2FA5@cisco.com> <A90AD47E-00E2-4EAB-8BD8-142CC10A6B6F@employees.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 08:38:42 +1300
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25-Oct-19 02:38, Ole Troan wrote:
> Eric,
> 
>> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
> 
> Perhaps, but isn't there a long list of documents the IETF has produced on IPV6 renumbering already?
> Would a new document say anything new and more useful?

I doubt it, although we did leave many dangling problems in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7010

     Brian

> 
> And it's not like DHCPv6 PD (RFC3633) isn't clear either. From the abstract:
> 
>    The Prefix Delegation options provide a mechanism for automated
>    delegation of IPv6 prefixes using the Dynamic Host Configuration
>    Protocol (DHCP).  This mechanism is intended for delegating a long-
>    lived prefix from a delegating router to a requesting router, across
>    an administrative boundary, where the delegating router does not
>    require knowledge about the topology of the links in the network to
>    which the prefixes will be assigned.
> 
> 
> That said, if people want to write a "IPv6 networks need stable prefixes" document, go ahead.
> I'm skeptical that playing with prefix timers and protocol mechanisms will do more than put lipstick on the pig. Iff we wanted to solve ephemeral addressing / connectivity, that's would require something else.
> 
> Best regards,
> Ole
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> .
> 


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 08:47:09 +1100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--0000000000004f6ed60595aefa5b
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On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 00:43 Alexandre Petrescu, <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.co=
m>
wrote:

>
>
> Le 24/10/2019 =C3=A0 15:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a =C3=A9crit :
> >  [...] "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
>
> Risks being shortened to an as harmful 'DHCP-PD considered harmful'.
>

If you're going to suggest that, you better say why.

DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv6 deployment. There would have
been no practical way to do it otherwise.



> Alex
>
> >
> > -=C3=A9ric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)
> >
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 24/10/2019, 12:47, "v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan" <
> v6ops-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> >
> >      Mark,
> >
> >      Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
> >      IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network
> hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.
> >      Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
> >
> >      Cheers,
> >      Ole
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--0000000000004f6ed60595aefa5b
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 00:43 Alexandre Petrescu, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Le 24/10/2019 =C3=A0 15:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 [...] &quot;Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful&quot; ?<b=
r>
<br>
Risks being shortened to an as harmful &#39;DHCP-PD considered harmful&#39;=
.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>If you&#39;re going to suggest that, you better say why.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv=
6 deployment. There would have been no practical way to do it otherwise.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -=C3=A9ric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 24/10/2019, 12:47, &quot;v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:otroan@=
employees.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">otroan@employees.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported =
in IP networks.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assumin=
g a network hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Apart from &quot;does not work&quot;, what more ca=
n the IETF say or do here?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ole<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
>v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o=
ps</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6op=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000004f6ed60595aefa5b--


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In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Oct 2019 15:38:36 +0200 ." <A90AD47E-00E2-4EAB-8BD8-142CC10A6B6F@employees.org> 
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:36:44 +0200
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/2f76XnMTt4HRaaMg5AwnrRX01jg>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>I'm skeptical that playing with prefix timers and protocol mechanisms will do m
>ore than put lipstick on the pig. Iff we wanted to solve ephemeral addressing /
> connectivity, that's would require something else.

A typical home situation today has almost exclusively outbound connections.
People also accept that if you reboot a home router, a video stream may
be interrupted.

Where general problem of renumbering is hard to solve, the more limited 
home use case is not. For IPv4 all of this is hidden by NAT in the CPE.

After the previous discussion, I updated my IPv6 stack to do detect prefixes
that are no longer announced in RAs. This does solve the problem at hand.

Previously, AVM CPEs (Fritz!Box) would actively kill weird prefixes used
by hosts. That was quite effective, though has some weird side effects.
So a CPE solution is likely to solve this problem as well.

This is problem that can be solved both in the host and in the CPE.

Of course, we can also wait for ISPs to start shipping CPEs with NAT66.

Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers. We can tell them 
that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a delay
of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make it 'work'.



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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>I fully agree with your assessment. That said, maybe the first step is
>to start with a problem statement, as with this document?

The current draft is not a problem statement. From Section 3 it describes
potential solutions.

I'm not sure a separate problem statement is needed. The relevant
documents can start with a description of what is happening today.
In perfect world, bad things do not happen, but we don't live in a 
perfect world. Most customers don't have the luxury position to change ISPs
just because their ISP does flash renumbering.


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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Le 24/10/2019 à 23:47, Mark Smith a écrit :
> 
> 
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 00:43 Alexandre Petrescu, 
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     Le 24/10/2019 à 15:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a écrit :
>      >  [...] "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
> 
>     Risks being shortened to an as harmful 'DHCP-PD considered harmful'.
> 
> 
> If you're going to suggest that, you better say why.

BEcause people take DHCPv6 for DHCPv4.

I'd rather say:

'linux lack of a light kernel built-in DHCPv6 client is considered
  harmful'
'sticked addresses on interfaces after prefix expiration is considered
  harmful'
'lack of DHCPv6-delegated prefix presence in RA is considered
  harmful'
...

> DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv6 deployment. There would have 
> been no practical way to do it otherwise.

Probably DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv6 deployment.  I will
not argue about the practicability of other ways, but while my ISP
(Free) delivers /56s w/o DHCPv6-PD since many years (supposedly w/
'6rd') it also engaged on a migration path to 'native IPv6' since 2017,
that I do not really understand whether or not it uses DHCPv6-PD.

Alex

> 
> 
> 
>     Alex
> 
>      >
>      > -éric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)
>      >
>      >
>      > ﻿On 24/10/2019, 12:47, "v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan"
>     <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of
>     otroan@employees.org <mailto:otroan@employees.org>> wrote:
>      >
>      >      Mark,
>      >
>      >      Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP
>     networks.
>      >      IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a
>     network hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.
>      >      Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do
>     here?
>      >
>      >      Cheers,
>      >      Ole
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > v6ops mailing list
>      > v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>      >
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     v6ops mailing list
>     v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


From nobody Fri Oct 25 03:56:45 2019
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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As usual, I think one wants to make sure about which link layer does one 
talk in the Problem Statement and Operational workarounds.

It might very well be that this DHCPv6-PD usefulness pertains to certain 
links (optical, in this case) and not in others (ADSL, or 4G).

This relates directly to many ISPs.

Alex


Le 25/10/2019 à 12:53, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
> 
> 
> Le 24/10/2019 à 23:47, Mark Smith a écrit :
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 00:43 Alexandre Petrescu, 
>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>     Le 24/10/2019 à 15:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a écrit :
>>      >  [...] "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
>>
>>     Risks being shortened to an as harmful 'DHCP-PD considered harmful'.
>>
>>
>> If you're going to suggest that, you better say why.
> 
> BEcause people take DHCPv6 for DHCPv4.
> 
> I'd rather say:
> 
> 'linux lack of a light kernel built-in DHCPv6 client is considered
>   harmful'
> 'sticked addresses on interfaces after prefix expiration is considered
>   harmful'
> 'lack of DHCPv6-delegated prefix presence in RA is considered
>   harmful'
> ...
> 
>> DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv6 deployment. There would 
>> have been no practical way to do it otherwise.
> 
> Probably DHCPv6-PD has facilitated residential IPv6 deployment.  I will
> not argue about the practicability of other ways, but while my ISP
> (Free) delivers /56s w/o DHCPv6-PD since many years (supposedly w/
> '6rd') it also engaged on a migration path to 'native IPv6' since 2017,
> that I do not really understand whether or not it uses DHCPv6-PD.
> 
> Alex
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>     Alex
>>
>>      >
>>      > -éric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > ﻿On 24/10/2019, 12:47, "v6ops on behalf of Ole Troan"
>>     <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of
>>     otroan@employees.org <mailto:otroan@employees.org>> wrote:
>>      >
>>      >      Mark,
>>      >
>>      >      Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP
>>     networks.
>>      >      IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a
>>     network hiding behind NAT, it makes it harder.
>>      >      Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do
>>     here?
>>      >
>>      >      Cheers,
>>      >      Ole
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > _______________________________________________
>>      > v6ops mailing list
>>      > v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>      >
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     v6ops mailing list
>>     v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers. We can =
tell them=20
> that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a =
delay
> of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make =
it 'work'.

a home network with ephemeral addressing stuck behind a firewall.
what is the point of IPv6 over IPv4+NAT? what value does IPv6 bring?

exposing external addressing in the internal network, combined with =
exposing network layer addressing to the transport and application =
layers is one of the bigger short-comings of IPv6.

Cheers,
Ole=


From nobody Fri Oct 25 05:44:05 2019
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:22:20 +0200 ." <E273241D-9C35-4E07-9525-DF7FA786F419@employees.org> 
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:43:54 +0200
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/_34mG68C_Wi5zu4s62hJ8yjehSo>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>a home network with ephemeral addressing stuck behind a firewall.
>what is the point of IPv6 over IPv4+NAT? what value does IPv6 bring?

In the case of, for example, youtube and netflix, the advantage is that
high volume flows are not going through the ISP's CGNAT.

In the case of certain banks that support IPv6, the advantage is that
there is no risk that multiple households will share a single IPv4 address.

In any case, it doesn't matter how much benefit IPv6 brings over IPv4. We
are out of IPv4 addresses. Time to get rid of IPv4.

>exposing external addressing in the internal network, combined with 
>exposing network layer addressing to the transport and application 
>layers is one of the bigger short-comings of IPv6.

There are all kinds of problems with IPv6. But I don't think we want to wait
for a resign of IPv6 or the transport and application layers.



From nobody Fri Oct 25 05:53:49 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> a home network with ephemeral addressing stuck behind a firewall.
>> what is the point of IPv6 over IPv4+NAT? what value does IPv6 bring?
>=20
> In the case of, for example, youtube and netflix, the advantage is =
that
> high volume flows are not going through the ISP's CGNAT.

how is that an advantage for the end user?
it might be for the ISP. but that's the entity that cannot give stable =
addressing in the first place...

> In the case of certain banks that support IPv6, the advantage is that
> there is no risk that multiple households will share a single IPv4 =
address.

that's a solved problem. security is done at a higher layer regardless.

> In any case, it doesn't matter how much benefit IPv6 brings over IPv4. =
We
> are out of IPv4 addresses. Time to get rid of IPv4.

if IPv6 provides no benefit over IPv4 then why?
32 + 16 > 128.
or if we allow IPv6 to have no benefit over IPv4 I could rather say.

>> exposing external addressing in the internal network, combined with=20=

>> exposing network layer addressing to the transport and application=20
>> layers is one of the bigger short-comings of IPv6.
>=20
> There are all kinds of problems with IPv6. But I don't think we want =
to wait
> for a resign of IPv6 or the transport and application layers.

The changes in the transport and application layers are already =
happening (e.g. QUIC).
There are already "redesigns" of IPv6. Take ILNP.

I'm not the one proposing an IPv6 redesign. This is a response to the =
proposals of violating a fundamental expectation of stable addressing in =
IPv6.

cheers,
Ole=


From nobody Fri Oct 25 06:15:08 2019
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:53:43 +0200 ." <49A6064C-3AA0-4AA6-B78E-ED8404D35B97@employees.org> 
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:14:59 +0200
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/mxYWS0qCVXFEECzl5ZLVPemaX20>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>how is that an advantage for the end user?
>it might be for the ISP. but that's the entity that cannot give stable 
>addressing in the first place...

If routing IPv6 is cheaper than CGNAT IPv4 then either the ISP can offer
higher bandwidth for the same price or reduce prices.

In any case, very often the user doesn't have a choice. I would like to
have reverse DNS delegated for all my IPv6 prefixes. That is just not going
to happen.

>> In the case of certain banks that support IPv6, the advantage is that
>> there is no risk that multiple households will share a single IPv4 
>address.
>
>that's a solved problem. security is done at a higher layer regardless.

Not for that particular bank. They are very much interested in IP addresses.

>if IPv6 provides no benefit over IPv4 then why?
>32 + 16 > 128.
>or if we allow IPv6 to have no benefit over IPv4 I could rather say.

The benefit of IPv6 is that IPv6 addresses are almost for free, whereas a
single IPv4 address costs a significant chunk of money (compared to other
costs).

>The changes in the transport and application layers are already 
>happening (e.g. QUIC).

If QUIC can deal with this flash renumbering problem then it would be nice
to see a report on that. I'm very curious how to would work.

In any case, there will continue to be a lot of TCP and non-QUIC UDP in
the coming years. Are you saying that it will be cheaper to modify all
transport protocols than to fix it in the IPv6 stack?

>There are already "redesigns" of IPv6. Take ILNP.

As far as I know ILNP never got any traction. Do propose we hold off on 
deplying IPv6 until ILNP is mature?

>I'm not the one proposing an IPv6 redesign. This is a response to the 
>proposals of violating a fundamental expectation of stable addressing in 
>IPv6.

The current reality is that IPv6 addresses are not stable in many deployments.
Yes, that's a pity. I'm personnaly very happy with my stable prefixes.

But we have to adapt IPv6 to the real world. Everybody who has stable
prefixes today benefits from having more IPv6 in the world.

Keeping IPv6 restrict to a small, pure corner of the world provides no
benefits.


From nobody Fri Oct 25 06:17:05 2019
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 00:16:35 +1100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:37, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>

<snip>

>
> Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers.

Why?

Between 2005 and 2011, I worked for two residential ISPs, one state
based with 80 000 customers, and another national one, with 160 000
customers. In all that time, I never needed to or saw anybody
intentionally "flash renumber" as far as I can remember.

The only time I can see a need to purposefully "flash renumber" would
be if you want to shift around IP address pools across to different
BRASes. I don't think that is a common event. (The common event was
adding new IP addresses to existing per-BRAS pools, as customer
numbers grew.)

So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely "flash renumber" why
they do so, and how often.


People are trying to continue to use the decades old dial up model.
That's understandable - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It could be
carried over from dial to residential broadband IPv4+NAT, because
there were enough similarities. The problem is that it is broken when
applied to IPv6.

You don't keep using old solutions and ideas when they start to cause
too many problems, and require too many work arounds to keep using
them. Too many problems caused by the old method and too many work
arounds to overcome them is a sign the old solution is really beyond
its useful life and a new solution is necessary.

>We can tell them
> that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a delay
> of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make it 'work'.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Clark Gaylord <cgaylord@vt.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 09:24:46 -0400
Message-ID: <CADzU5g77cvfZknAzSkkNTP5vT73MZnSdGuOJ4y0Uba8XMgiASA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--0000000000008d6b650595bc1346
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Note: that makes your sample size 2, not 240,000....

Renumbering is not "common" but it certainly happens. With that said,
"flash renumber" could reasonably be considered a "high support risk"
operation.. IPv6 is supposed to accommodate renumbering *more* gracefully,
not less, than legacy IP, but it is still supposed to be a planned event.

--
Clark Gaylord
cgaylord@vt.edu
... autocorrect may have improved this message ...

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 09:17 Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:37, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
> wrote:
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers.
>
> Why?
>
> Between 2005 and 2011, I worked for two residential ISPs, one state
> based with 80 000 customers, and another national one, with 160 000
> customers. In all that time, I never needed to or saw anybody
> intentionally "flash renumber" as far as I can remember.
>
> The only time I can see a need to purposefully "flash renumber" would
> be if you want to shift around IP address pools across to different
> BRASes. I don't think that is a common event. (The common event was
> adding new IP addresses to existing per-BRAS pools, as customer
> numbers grew.)
>
> So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely "flash renumber" why
> they do so, and how often.
>
>
> People are trying to continue to use the decades old dial up model.
> That's understandable - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It could be
> carried over from dial to residential broadband IPv4+NAT, because
> there were enough similarities. The problem is that it is broken when
> applied to IPv6.
>
> You don't keep using old solutions and ideas when they start to cause
> too many problems, and require too many work arounds to keep using
> them. Too many problems caused by the old method and too many work
> arounds to overcome them is a sign the old solution is really beyond
> its useful life and a new solution is necessary.
>
> >We can tell them
> > that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a delay
> > of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make it
> 'work'.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--0000000000008d6b650595bc1346
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Note: that makes your sample size 2, not 240,000....=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Renumbering is not &quot;comm=
on&quot; but it certainly happens. With that said, &quot;flash renumber&quo=
t; could reasonably be considered a &quot;high support risk&quot; operation=
.. IPv6 is supposed to accommodate renumbering *more* gracefully, not less,=
 than legacy IP, but it is still supposed to be a planned event.<br><br><di=
v data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">--<br>Clark Gaylord<br><a=
 href=3D"mailto:cgaylord@vt.edu">cgaylord@vt.edu</a><br>... autocorrect may=
 have improved this message ... </div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 09:17 Mark Smit=
h &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 1=
9:37, Philip Homburg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers.<br>
<br>
Why?<br>
<br>
Between 2005 and 2011, I worked for two residential ISPs, one state<br>
based with 80 000 customers, and another national one, with 160 000<br>
customers. In all that time, I never needed to or saw anybody<br>
intentionally &quot;flash renumber&quot; as far as I can remember.<br>
<br>
The only time I can see a need to purposefully &quot;flash renumber&quot; w=
ould<br>
be if you want to shift around IP address pools across to different<br>
BRASes. I don&#39;t think that is a common event. (The common event was<br>
adding new IP addresses to existing per-BRAS pools, as customer<br>
numbers grew.)<br>
<br>
So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely &quot;flash renumber&quot;=
 why<br>
they do so, and how often.<br>
<br>
<br>
People are trying to continue to use the decades old dial up model.<br>
That&#39;s understandable - &quot;if it ain&#39;t broke, don&#39;t fix it&q=
uot;. It could be<br>
carried over from dial to residential broadband IPv4+NAT, because<br>
there were enough similarities. The problem is that it is broken when<br>
applied to IPv6.<br>
<br>
You don&#39;t keep using old solutions and ideas when they start to cause<b=
r>
too many problems, and require too many work arounds to keep using<br>
them. Too many problems caused by the old method and too many work<br>
arounds to overcome them is a sign the old solution is really beyond<br>
its useful life and a new solution is necessary.<br>
<br>
&gt;We can tell them<br>
&gt; that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a de=
lay<br>
&gt; of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make i=
t &#39;work&#39;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
>v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o=
ps</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6op=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000008d6b650595bc1346--


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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> The changes in the transport and application layers are already=20
>> happening (e.g. QUIC).
>=20
> If QUIC can deal with this flash renumbering problem then it would be =
nice
> to see a report on that. I'm very curious how to would work.
>=20
> In any case, there will continue to be a lot of TCP and non-QUIC UDP =
in
> the coming years. Are you saying that it will be cheaper to modify all
> transport protocols than to fix it in the IPv6 stack?

It can't be fixed in the IPv6 stack.
The only thing you can do is to make the IPv6 network not work =
significantly worse than a flash renumbered IPv4 + NAT network.

My argument is that if you do that, as in add support for ephemeral =
addressing / flash renumbering at the network layer, without doing =
anything at upper layers, then for an end-user, IPv6 will provide no =
value or more likely negative value compared to IPv4 + NAT.

Cheers,
Ole=


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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:28:22 +0200
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hi,

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 03:25:36PM +0200, Ole Troan wrote:
> My argument is that if you do that, as in add support for ephemeral addressing / flash renumbering at the network layer, without doing anything at upper layers, then for an end-user, IPv6 will provide no value or more likely negative value compared to IPv4 + NAT.

Nothing in the lower layers of the IP stack provides any "value" to the 
end-user.

Which is why they are not banging at our doors demanding "TCP!" or
"DNS!" or "IPv4".  Or, "IPv6", for that matter.

Applications need to work, and applications have learned how to survive
NAT breakage, so applications need to learn how to do deal with non-stable
IPv6 addresses.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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From: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Ole Troan wrote on 25/10/2019 13:53:
> This is a response to the proposals of violating a fundamental
> expectation of stable addressing in IPv6.
is that a fundamental design principle of ipv6?  This is news.

Nick


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From: Richard Patterson <richard@helix.net.nz>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 17:07:51 +0100
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On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 14:17, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely "flash renumber" why
> they do so, and how often.
>

I wouldn't say purposely, we've gone to a lot of effort to keep them as
stable as possible, however, there are times where network events could
cause a current lease to become stale (or invalid), and for the new lease
to contain a different prefix.
i.e.  If our transmission team decide to re-home a metro area, or if the
capacity planning team decides to rebalance between BNGs.

We don't offer truly static PD assignments as we don't have to build and
maintain a topology aware IPAM <-> RADIUS service, when we can simply let
the BNG/DHCPv6 server deal with assignments dynamically.

--000000000000c0c74f0595be5a54
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 14:17, Mark Smith =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><br>
So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely &quot;flash renumber&quot;=
 why<br>
they do so, and how often.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I wouldn&#39=
;t say purposely, we&#39;ve gone to a lot of effort to keep them as stable =
as possible, however, there are times where network events could cause a cu=
rrent lease to become stale (or invalid), and for the new lease to contain =
a different prefix.=C2=A0</div><div>i.e.=C2=A0 If our transmission team dec=
ide to re-home a metro area, or if the capacity planning team decides to re=
balance between BNGs.</div><div><br></div><div>We don&#39;t offer truly sta=
tic PD assignments as we don&#39;t have to build and maintain a topology aw=
are IPAM &lt;-&gt; RADIUS service, when we can simply let the BNG/DHCPv6 se=
rver deal with assignments dynamically.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
</div></div>

--000000000000c0c74f0595be5a54--


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 09:22, Ole Troan wrote:
>> Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers. We
>> can tell them that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will
>> result either in a delay of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a
>> hack (such as NAT66) to make it 'work'.
> 
> a home network with ephemeral addressing stuck behind a firewall. 
> what is the point of IPv6 over IPv4+NAT? what value does IPv6 bring?

That if you *want* to do something else, you *can*.



> exposing external addressing in the internal network, combined with
> exposing network layer addressing to the transport and application
> layers is one of the bigger short-comings of IPv6.

Not sure what you mean.

-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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On 24/10/19 10:38, Ole Troan wrote:
> Eric,
> 
>> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
> 
> Perhaps, but isn't there a long list of documents the IETF has produced on IPV6 renumbering already?
> Would a new document say anything new and more useful?
> 
> And it's not like DHCPv6 PD (RFC3633) isn't clear either. From the abstract:
> 
>    The Prefix Delegation options provide a mechanism for automated
>    delegation of IPv6 prefixes using the Dynamic Host Configuration
>    Protocol (DHCP).  This mechanism is intended for delegating a long-
>    lived prefix from a delegating router to a requesting router, across
>    an administrative boundary, where the delegating router does not
>    require knowledge about the topology of the links in the network to
>    which the prefixes will be assigned.

Long-lived != immortal. As long as a prefix eventually changes, that is
when the problem may be experienced.



> That said, if people want to write a "IPv6 networks need stable prefixes" document, go ahead.
> I'm skeptical that playing with prefix timers and protocol mechanisms will do more than put lipstick on the pig.

It's not putting lipstick on a pig. In the current situation, hosts
essentially do not react to prefixes that fade away. This is something
that can be easily improved.


> Iff we wanted to solve ephemeral addressing / connectivity, that's would require something else.

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by ephemeral addressing /
connectivity?

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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> On 25 Oct 2019, at 19:34, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>=20
>>> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD p=
refix considered harmful" ?
>>=20
>> Perhaps, but isn't there a long list of documents the IETF has produced o=
n IPV6 renumbering already?
>> Would a new document say anything new and more useful?
>>=20
>> And it's not like DHCPv6 PD (RFC3633) isn't clear either. =46rom the abst=
ract:
>>=20
>>   The Prefix Delegation options provide a mechanism for automated
>>   delegation of IPv6 prefixes using the Dynamic Host Configuration
>>   Protocol (DHCP).  This mechanism is intended for delegating a long-
>>   lived prefix from a delegating router to a requesting router, across
>>   an administrative boundary, where the delegating router does not
>>   require knowledge about the topology of the links in the network to
>>   which the prefixes will be assigned.
>=20
> Long-lived !=3D immortal. As long as a prefix eventually changes, that is
> when the problem may be experienced.

Not if renumbering of the network is done according to specification.=20
Flash renumbering is not defined so no-one should be surprised that you get u=
ndefined behavior.=20

O.=20


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On 24/10/19 13:52, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>> I'm also not convinced
>>> that there are sensible values for these lifetimes that are robust
>>> enough 
>>> and at the same time responsive enough to deal with the issue at hand.
>>>
>>> Reducing the lifetimes would help against build up of stale prefixes. If
>>> they are set to a couple of hours.
>>
>> I do agree that this is not a complete solution, but, as you correctly
>> note, would help against build up of stale prefixes.
> 
> I do agree that 7 and 30 days, respectively are absurd timer default values.

Exactly. *That* is the point.



> I think we can take some lessons from IPv4 and DHCP here. A fairly common
> lease time in the DHCP world is 3600 seconds (1 hour). This seems like a
> reasonable default preferred lifetime and I would propose that 1 day (86400)
> seconds may well be a reasonable default valid lifetime.

That's certainly an improvement wrt what we have right now.



> 
> It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator
> and the
> RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.
> 
> With the following exception, I don’t advocate modifying this on the client
> side:
> +Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to specifically
> allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid
> lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
> this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.

Could you please elaborate on this one?



> I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to CPE and
> router behavior should be standardized and implemented.
> 
>> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
>> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
>> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
>> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
>> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
> 
> In the crash scenarios you describe, you’re assuming a single router on
> the network or
> at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with no
> persistent
> memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a
> scenario,
> it seems to me that the following are also likely valid assumptions:
> 
> +The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to demand.
> +The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably
> an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.
> 
> However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those
> assumptions
> won’t hold true and we should not seek to solve this problem (which is
> generally
> applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of all of
> those
> other professionally administered environments.

Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
improvement to what we have now.



> 
> For
> 
> For the busy wifi scenario, the preferred lifetime of zero for the old
> PIO should be
> sent many times and should be maintained in the configuration for at least
> OldPreferredLifetime seconds. At the end of OldPreferredLifetime seconds,
> if a host hasn’t seen the new RA, it will no longer matter as the last
> RA it saw
> will have expired. It’s not ideal, but there really aren’t a lot of good
> options here
> other than getting WiFi vendors to improve multicast reliability.
> 
> In your automated configuration management scenario, IMHO, the people
> driving the automation have erred. The related case is, IMHO, a variant
> of the exact same case and represents the same error. It is still operator
> error regardless of whether the operator is driving an automation system,
> or is directly configuring a router. At a certain point, we need to
> accept that
> there is a limit to the acceptable gymnastics for the prevention of operator
> error. The best colloquialism here is “If you make something completely
> idiot proof, the world will invent a better idiot.”
> 
> In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their
> previous values
> for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and the
> announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate that
> the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer be
> considered on-link.

Not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate?



> Is there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly
> with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?
> 
> Finally, An editorial note… In Section 3, you state “Finally, Section
> 2.5 analyzes…”
> I believe this is intended to be a reference to section 3.2.2.

Nope. Section 3.2.2 talks about the interaction between dhcpv6-pd and
slaac. BUt it is section 2.5 that discusses other considerations for
dynamic/stable prefixes. For example, stable prefixes are not nice for
privacy.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
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From nobody Fri Oct 25 10:52:44 2019
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
References: <m1iNIFE-0000IwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> <m1iNXlr-0000GGC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <c52fda1d-9019-97e9-037c-c2c03c55df7d@si6networks.com> <m1iNvBU-0000DpC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 05:42, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> I fully agree with your assessment. That said, maybe the first step is
>> to start with a problem statement, as with this document?
> 
> The current draft is not a problem statement. From Section 3 it describes
> potential solutions.

It does contain a problem statement. And I think it would be nice if the
problem statement could highlight, at a high-level, the possible ways to
address the problem. The current document does elaborate quite a bit on
some of them. Such parts could be removed and put into a separate
document, though.



> I'm not sure a separate problem statement is needed. The relevant
> documents can start with a description of what is happening today.
> In perfect world, bad things do not happen, but we don't live in a 
> perfect world. Most customers don't have the luxury position to change ISPs
> just because their ISP does flash renumbering.

Exactly. THe original draft had *everything* in the document, including
protocol updates. THis one has limited to the problem statement plus
operational mitigations. Maybe the text that gets too specific (.e.g the
CPE behavior could be removed and made into a stand alone document).

THoughts?


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Fri Oct 25 10:52:56 2019
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
References: <860c946a-c23c-4060-d83c-587302de28f8@si6networks.com> <5A20C8D8-3A42-464D-9D6D-79F1567B6FA4@employees.org>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 14:40, Ole Troan wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 25 Oct 2019, at 19:34, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
>>>
>>> Perhaps, but isn't there a long list of documents the IETF has produced on IPV6 renumbering already?
>>> Would a new document say anything new and more useful?
>>>
>>> And it's not like DHCPv6 PD (RFC3633) isn't clear either. From the abstract:
>>>
>>>   The Prefix Delegation options provide a mechanism for automated
>>>   delegation of IPv6 prefixes using the Dynamic Host Configuration
>>>   Protocol (DHCP).  This mechanism is intended for delegating a long-
>>>   lived prefix from a delegating router to a requesting router, across
>>>   an administrative boundary, where the delegating router does not
>>>   require knowledge about the topology of the links in the network to
>>>   which the prefixes will be assigned.
>>
>> Long-lived != immortal. As long as a prefix eventually changes, that is
>> when the problem may be experienced.
> 
> Not if renumbering of the network is done according to specification. 
> Flash renumbering is not defined so no-one should be surprised that you get undefined behavior. 

The "flash renumbering" could also happen if the CPE was trying to kind
of the right thing, the ISP does not employ stable prefixes, and the CPE
happens to crash and reboot. Some CPEs also reportedly do a "release"
when rebooted.

At the end of the day, what you get is a brittle network. And what we're
trying to do is exactly improving the robustness of the network.

-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 25, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
> The "flash renumbering" could also happen if the CPE was trying to =
kind
> of the right thing, the ISP does not employ stable prefixes, and the =
CPE
> happens to crash and reboot. Some CPEs also reportedly do a "release"
> when rebooted.

That=E2=80=99s probably a bug.   If the CPE has a valid lease, and the =
prefix is still working, it should continue to advertise it until its =
valid lifetime expires.   The ISP DHCP server should be giving the =
router two prefixes if it=E2=80=99s being renumbered: the preferred one, =
and the one that=E2=80=99s still valid but not preferred anymore.


--Apple-Mail=_F7BEF4FF-75B7-4FA3-B5B6-3A862AAD2FD3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 25, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The "flash renumbering" could also happen if the CPE was =
trying to kind</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">of the right thing, the ISP does not employ stable prefixes, =
and the CPE</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">happens to =
crash and reboot. Some CPEs also reportedly do a "release"</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">when =
rebooted.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s probably a bug. &nbsp; If the CPE has a valid =
lease, and the prefix is still working, it should continue to advertise =
it until its valid lifetime expires. &nbsp; The ISP DHCP server should =
be giving the router two prefixes if it=E2=80=99s being renumbered: the =
preferred one, and the one that=E2=80=99s still valid but not preferred =
anymore.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 09:53, Ole Troan wrote:
[....]
> 
> I'm not the one proposing an IPv6 redesign. This is a response to the proposals of violating a fundamental expectation of stable addressing in IPv6.

Could you please point to an RFC that documents such expectation?

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 10:14, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> how is that an advantage for the end user?
>> it might be for the ISP. but that's the entity that cannot give stable 
>> addressing in the first place...
> 
> If routing IPv6 is cheaper than CGNAT IPv4 then either the ISP can offer
> higher bandwidth for the same price or reduce prices.
> 
> In any case, very often the user doesn't have a choice. I would like to
> have reverse DNS delegated for all my IPv6 prefixes. That is just not going
> to happen.
> 
>>> In the case of certain banks that support IPv6, the advantage is that
>>> there is no risk that multiple households will share a single IPv4 
>> address.
>>
>> that's a solved problem. security is done at a higher layer regardless.
> 
> Not for that particular bank. They are very much interested in IP addresses.
> 
>> if IPv6 provides no benefit over IPv4 then why?
>> 32 + 16 > 128.
>> or if we allow IPv6 to have no benefit over IPv4 I could rather say.
> 
> The benefit of IPv6 is that IPv6 addresses are almost for free, whereas a
> single IPv4 address costs a significant chunk of money (compared to other
> costs).
> 
>> The changes in the transport and application layers are already 
>> happening (e.g. QUIC).
> 
> If QUIC can deal with this flash renumbering problem then it would be nice
> to see a report on that. I'm very curious how to would work.

THe best they could do is to try to *circumvent* the problem while
keeping all the mess in the network layer. That'd certainly be a bad option.


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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On 25/10/19 10:25, Ole Troan wrote:
>>> The changes in the transport and application layers are already 
>>> happening (e.g. QUIC).
>>
>> If QUIC can deal with this flash renumbering problem then it would be nice
>> to see a report on that. I'm very curious how to would work.
>>
>> In any case, there will continue to be a lot of TCP and non-QUIC UDP in
>> the coming years. Are you saying that it will be cheaper to modify all
>> transport protocols than to fix it in the IPv6 stack?
> 
> It can't be fixed in the IPv6 stack.

When what you call "flash-renumbering" happens, hosts continue employing
addresses and network configuration that is stale incorrect. That's the
problem. As soon as you are able to detect that and unprefer/remove such
addresses/configuration, you've solved the problem.

That's what we're trying to do here.


> My argument is that if you do that, as in add support for ephemeral addressing / flash renumbering at the network layer, without doing anything at upper layers, then for an end-user, IPv6 will provide no value or more likely negative value compared to IPv4 + NAT.

The two are orthogonal. Upper-layers can/should do better. That doesn't
mean that we shouldn't improve robustness at the network layer.


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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> On 25 Oct 2019, at 20:05, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>=20
> When what you call "flash-renumbering" happens,=20

Yes, because what you call =E2=80=9Crenumbering =E2=80=9C is not specified a=
nywhere.=20

O=


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 14:59, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 25, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> The "flash renumbering" could also happen if the CPE was trying to kind
>> of the right thing, the ISP does not employ stable prefixes, and the CPE
>> happens to crash and reboot. Some CPEs also reportedly do a "release"
>> when rebooted.
> 
> That’s probably a bug.   If the CPE has a valid lease, and the prefix is
> still working, it should continue to advertise it until its valid
> lifetime expires. 

Normally CPEs keep no state in stable storage about that.


> The ISP DHCP server should be giving the router two
> prefixes if it’s being renumbered: the preferred one, and the one that’s
> still valid but not preferred anymore.

The reality is that, we have all sort of things in the echosystem. So if
the network is to be robust, while we can and do improvements were
possible/needed. That said, there should be smarts on the hosts to cope
with these scenarios gracefully (hope for the best, plan for the worst).

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:14:49 -0400
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
References: <860c946a-c23c-4060-d83c-587302de28f8@si6networks.com> <5A20C8D8-3A42-464D-9D6D-79F1567B6FA4@employees.org> <1a07be3c-90bb-5182-1a11-5e94fbbacf44@si6networks.com> <4C2352ED-4B3A-4F11-B860-FE0848513431@fugue.com> <99f9eb4f-9e66-d0ae-c600-09f203d8f0bc@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--Apple-Mail=_7619E691-EAB9-4502-871D-112EFD8C635A
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On Oct 25, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
> The reality is that, we have all sort of things in the echosystem. So =
if
> the network is to be robust, while we can and do improvements were
> possible/needed. That said, there should be smarts on the hosts to =
cope
> with these scenarios gracefully (hope for the best, plan for the =
worst).

I agree.   But if an ISP=E2=80=99s DHCP server is not doing this, I =
would say that it=E2=80=99s a bug, and we should make sure that we are =
at least giving them correct advice about what DHCP=E2=80=99s behavior =
should be.   Similarly with the CPE: if it asks for e.g. a /64, and gets =
two, one with a preferred lifetime of zero, does it advertise both?


--Apple-Mail=_7619E691-EAB9-4502-871D-112EFD8C635A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 25, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The reality is that, we have all sort of things in the =
echosystem. So if</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">the network is to be robust, while we can and do improvements =
were</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">possible/needed. That said, there should be smarts on the =
hosts to cope</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">with these =
scenarios gracefully (hope for the best, plan for the =
worst).</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
agree. &nbsp; But if an ISP=E2=80=99s DHCP server is not doing this, I =
would say that it=E2=80=99s a bug, and we should make sure that we are =
at least giving them correct advice about what DHCP=E2=80=99s behavior =
should be. &nbsp; Similarly with the CPE: if it asks for e.g. a /64, and =
gets two, one with a preferred lifetime of zero, does it advertise =
both?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7619E691-EAB9-4502-871D-112EFD8C635A--


From nobody Fri Oct 25 11:16:54 2019
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 15:10, Ole Troan wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 25 Oct 2019, at 20:05, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>>
>> When what you call "flash-renumbering" happens, 
> 
> Yes, because what you call “renumbering “ is not specified anywhere. 

THat's why we explain and describe it in our I-D.

-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 15:14, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 25, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> The reality is that, we have all sort of things in the echosystem. So if
>> the network is to be robust, while we can and do improvements were
>> possible/needed. That said, there should be smarts on the hosts to cope
>> with these scenarios gracefully (hope for the best, plan for the worst).
> 
> I agree.   But if an ISP’s DHCP server is not doing this, I would say
> that it’s a bug, and we should make sure that we are at least giving
> them correct advice about what DHCP’s behavior should be. 

I fully agree. Indeed, we did include a bit of that in our I-D.


>  Similarly
> with the CPE: if it asks for e.g. a /64, and gets two, one with a
> preferred lifetime of zero, does it advertise both?

This is largely unspecified. So, yes, it should be better specified.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 26-Oct-19 03:27, Nick Hilliard wrote:
> Ole Troan wrote on 25/10/2019 13:53:
>> This is a response to the proposals of violating a fundamental
>> expectation of stable addressing in IPv6.
> is that a fundamental design principle of ipv6?  This is news.

Not that I'm aware of, but (as the 6renum WG showed) that doesn't
mean that planned renumbering is easy; and unplanned renumbering
is still a bug.

Mitigations needed.

   Brian


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On 24/10/19 10:11, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> Ole
> 
> What about a "IPv6 renumbering considered harmful" or "Unstable DHCP-PD prefix considered harmful" ?
> 
> -éric (enjoying my 3-year old /48 or is it 5 years?)

The EFF might have some concerns about that ;-)


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
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From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:22:16 2019
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Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 106
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Dear Fred Baker,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    v6ops Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Monday, 18 November 2019, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750
    Room Name: Collyer size: 250
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/v6ops.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Fred Baker

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: spring lsr 6man intarea idr

 Key Participant Conflict: rtgwg tsvarea panrg grow tsvwg


People who must be present:
  Fred Baker
  Ron Bonica
  Warren &quot;Ace&quot; Kumari

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  


---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Oct 25 17:41:23 2019
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On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, 00:25 Clark Gaylord, <cgaylord@vt.edu> wrote:

> Note: that makes your sample size 2, not 240,000....
>

I think the volume of users is an indication of the likelihood of
encountering it, in the context of rapid broadband adoption at the time.

When I started at the smaller ISP in 2005, we had 6000 customers. When I
left in November of 2009, we had 80 000 customers.

During that time the network was also entirely rebuilt, including going
from 2 LNSes and a single BRAS to 2 new LNSes and 6 BRASes, on a new
network core with an entirely new routing architecture (i.e. BGP for
everything, OSPF carrying loopbacks and link addressing) . The rebuild
included unavoidable redistribution of routes back and forth between and
new network instances of BGP and OSPF (and the risk of BGP -> OSPF -> BGP).

So given the growth, and the complexity of what we had to do to deploy a
new network during that growth, while continuing to providing legacy
network connectivity, I think if flash renumbering was a common thing that
needed to be done, I think I should have encountered it often given my
experience.



> Renumbering is not "common" but it certainly happens.
>

I didn't say it didn't happen.

People imply it is a regular and routine event that then justifies a lot if
effort to work around its consequences to IPv6.

I don't agree, because I don't think it is a common and routine event, and
with the right address provisioning system and routing architecture,
customers don't get flash renumbered even when, e.g. a BRAS is rebooted.

With that said, "flash renumber" could reasonably be considered a "high
> support risk" operation.. IPv6 is supposed to accommodate renumbering
> *more* gracefully, not less, than legacy IP, but it is still supposed to be
> a planned event.
>

If you use IPv6's graceful renumbering mechanisms i.e. multi-addressing and
preferred and valid lifetimes, then it won't be flash renumbering.


> --
> Clark Gaylord
> cgaylord@vt.edu
> ... autocorrect may have improved this message ...
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 09:17 Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:37, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >
>> > Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Between 2005 and 2011, I worked for two residential ISPs, one state
>> based with 80 000 customers, and another national one, with 160 000
>> customers. In all that time, I never needed to or saw anybody
>> intentionally "flash renumber" as far as I can remember.
>>
>> The only time I can see a need to purposefully "flash renumber" would
>> be if you want to shift around IP address pools across to different
>> BRASes. I don't think that is a common event. (The common event was
>> adding new IP addresses to existing per-BRAS pools, as customer
>> numbers grew.)
>>
>> So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely "flash renumber" why
>> they do so, and how often.
>>
>>
>> People are trying to continue to use the decades old dial up model.
>> That's understandable - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It could be
>> carried over from dial to residential broadband IPv4+NAT, because
>> there were enough similarities. The problem is that it is broken when
>> applied to IPv6.
>>
>> You don't keep using old solutions and ideas when they start to cause
>> too many problems, and require too many work arounds to keep using
>> them. Too many problems caused by the old method and too many work
>> arounds to overcome them is a sign the old solution is really beyond
>> its useful life and a new solution is necessary.
>>
>> >We can tell them
>> > that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a
>> delay
>> > of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make it
>> 'work'.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > v6ops mailing list
>> > v6ops@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>

--0000000000005a53980595c586ad
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, 00:25 Clark Gaylord, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:cgaylord@vt.edu" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">cgaylord@v=
t.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"au=
to"><div>Note: that makes your sample size 2, not 240,000....</div></div></=
blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I thin=
k the volume of users is an indication of the likelihood of encountering it=
, in the context of rapid broadband adoption at the time.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When I started at the smaller ISP in 2005=
, we had 6000 customers. When I left in November of 2009, we had 80 000 cus=
tomers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">During that time=
 the network was also entirely rebuilt, including going from 2 LNSes and a =
single BRAS to 2 new LNSes and 6 BRASes, on a new network core with an enti=
rely new routing architecture (i.e. BGP for everything, OSPF carrying loopb=
acks and link addressing) . The rebuild included unavoidable redistribution=
 of routes back and forth between and new network instances of BGP and OSPF=
 (and the risk of BGP -&gt; OSPF -&gt; BGP).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">So given the growth, and the complexity of what we had=
 to do to deploy a new network during that growth, while continuing to prov=
iding legacy network connectivity, I think if flash renumbering was a commo=
n thing that needed to be done, I think I should have encountered it often =
given my experience.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Renumbering is not &quot;common&quot; but it certainly happens.</div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I didn&#39;t say it didn&#39;t happen.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">People imply it is a regular and routine event that then=
 justifies a lot if effort to work around its consequences to IPv6.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t agree, because I do=
n&#39;t think it is a common and routine event, and with the right address =
provisioning system and routing architecture, customers don&#39;t get flash=
 renumbered even when, e.g. a BRAS is rebooted.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div dir=3D"auto"> With that said, &quot;flas=
h renumber&quot; could reasonably be considered a &quot;high support risk&q=
uot; operation.. IPv6 is supposed to accommodate renumbering *more* gracefu=
lly, not less, than legacy IP, but it is still supposed to be a planned eve=
nt.<br></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">If you use IPv6&#39;s graceful renumbering mechanisms =
i.e. multi-addressing and preferred and valid lifetimes, then it won&#39;t =
be flash renumbering.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"au=
to">--<br>Clark Gaylord<br><a href=3D"mailto:cgaylord@vt.edu" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">cgaylord@vt.edu</a><br>... autocorrect m=
ay have improved this message ... </div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 09:17 Mark Sm=
ith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:37, Philip Homburg &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reality is that ISPs do flash renumbering for IPv4 customers.<br>
<br>
Why?<br>
<br>
Between 2005 and 2011, I worked for two residential ISPs, one state<br>
based with 80 000 customers, and another national one, with 160 000<br>
customers. In all that time, I never needed to or saw anybody<br>
intentionally &quot;flash renumber&quot; as far as I can remember.<br>
<br>
The only time I can see a need to purposefully &quot;flash renumber&quot; w=
ould<br>
be if you want to shift around IP address pools across to different<br>
BRASes. I don&#39;t think that is a common event. (The common event was<br>
adding new IP addresses to existing per-BRAS pools, as customer<br>
numbers grew.)<br>
<br>
So I would like to hear from ISPs that purposely &quot;flash renumber&quot;=
 why<br>
they do so, and how often.<br>
<br>
<br>
People are trying to continue to use the decades old dial up model.<br>
That&#39;s understandable - &quot;if it ain&#39;t broke, don&#39;t fix it&q=
uot;. It could be<br>
carried over from dial to residential broadband IPv4+NAT, because<br>
there were enough similarities. The problem is that it is broken when<br>
applied to IPv6.<br>
<br>
You don&#39;t keep using old solutions and ideas when they start to cause<b=
r>
too many problems, and require too many work arounds to keep using<br>
them. Too many problems caused by the old method and too many work<br>
arounds to overcome them is a sign the old solution is really beyond<br>
its useful life and a new solution is necessary.<br>
<br>
&gt;We can tell them<br>
&gt; that they cannot do that for IPv6, but that will result either in a de=
lay<br>
&gt; of IPv6 deployment, or they will find a hack (such as NAT66) to make i=
t &#39;work&#39;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000005a53980595c586ad--


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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
References: <m1iNIFE-0000IwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> <CAO42Z2x7vudujw5t++obry56g=VNjQXXTHFK8pBPk0jmk78Bcg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJoHkZ8pTjszP0vw4BjX0HUhmPa6wJONzdy2JEm5iqAfBUvjRg@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2wCYi4KWTEz1hUSPVr9+hu8GaHRkPuvQQ2P00knvnPaaQ@mail.gmail.com> <848BA3B3-36B4-4C42-86D0-88759BC45D5A@employees.org> <A61279DA-4678-4A10-9117-6CA227AE2FA5@cisco.com> <A90AD47E-00E2-4EAB-8BD8-142CC10A6B6F@employees.org> <m1iNv5U-0000KUC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <CAO42Z2xUa7n6uUz9gtiZyZR39KFhsQ8mLeiyQdyERGTcJcXWWA@mail.gmail.com> <CADzU5g77cvfZknAzSkkNTP5vT73MZnSdGuOJ4y0Uba8XMgiASA@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2xHYU3y455XsM5grvG0360b9RigCaN=L+cc27_oyxhq0w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
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>>     Renumbering is not "common" but it certainly happens.
...> People imply it is a regular and routine event...

Sadly, it is. For example, at my previous apartment there was a badly waterproofed joint somewhere between me and the nearest street cabinet, so for months I frequently lost ADSL synch... and when it came back, I got new IPv6 prefix. After a heavy rainstorm, this would happen many times a day.

Yes, OK, there was a copper cable fault and it took <unmentionable company> many months to fix it. OK, maybe the ISP shouldn't regenerate a prefix every time. But that's real life and I suspect I am one of millions.

Regards
   Brian


From nobody Fri Oct 25 18:59:47 2019
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References: <m1iNIFE-0000IwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> <CAO42Z2x7vudujw5t++obry56g=VNjQXXTHFK8pBPk0jmk78Bcg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJoHkZ8pTjszP0vw4BjX0HUhmPa6wJONzdy2JEm5iqAfBUvjRg@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2wCYi4KWTEz1hUSPVr9+hu8GaHRkPuvQQ2P00knvnPaaQ@mail.gmail.com> <848BA3B3-36B4-4C42-86D0-88759BC45D5A@employees.org> <A61279DA-4678-4A10-9117-6CA227AE2FA5@cisco.com> <A90AD47E-00E2-4EAB-8BD8-142CC10A6B6F@employees.org> <m1iNv5U-0000KUC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <CAO42Z2xUa7n6uUz9gtiZyZR39KFhsQ8mLeiyQdyERGTcJcXWWA@mail.gmail.com> <CADzU5g77cvfZknAzSkkNTP5vT73MZnSdGuOJ4y0Uba8XMgiASA@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2xHYU3y455XsM5grvG0360b9RigCaN=L+cc27_oyxhq0w@mail.gmail.com> <c68e4826-8313-ef4c-86c1-0a45ba7278fd@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <c68e4826-8313-ef4c-86c1-0a45ba7278fd@gmail.com>
From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:59:32 +1100
Message-ID: <CAO42Z2wPsr9iT1JtJPeFxJFmuhy_sckHB5_AJMo61zxakeC5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, 12:30 Brian E Carpenter, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>     Renumbering is not "common" but it certainly happens.
> ...> People imply it is a regular and routine event...
>
> Sadly, it is. For example, at my previous apartment there was a badly
> waterproofed joint somewhere between me and the nearest street cabinet, so
> for months I frequently lost ADSL synch... and when it came back, I got new
> IPv6 prefix. After a heavy rainstorm, this would happen many times a day.
>
> Yes, OK, there was a copper cable fault and it took <unmentionable
> company> many months to fix it. OK, maybe the ISP shouldn't regenerate a
> prefix every time. But that's real life and I suspect I am one of millions.
>

This smells of the local BRAS pool dial up model.  In the same situation,
that wouldn't happen to me because I have a stable /56 associated with my
user account.

If you're using PPPoE, you can specify the access concentrator you want to
(re)attach to.

One common AC/BRAS/NAS implementation caches IPv4 pool assignments to user
accounts, so that if the same account re-attaches, the same IPv4 pool
address is given back to it. I wouldn't be surprised if that also occurs
with IPv6 pool delegated prefix assignments.





> Regards
>    Brian
>

--000000000000cc909f0595c69ecb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, 12:30 Brian E Carpenter, &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Renumbering is not &quot;common&quot; but it certainly happens.<br>
...&gt; People imply it is a regular and routine event...<br>
<br>
Sadly, it is. For example, at my previous apartment there was a badly water=
proofed joint somewhere between me and the nearest street cabinet, so for m=
onths I frequently lost ADSL synch... and when it came back, I got new IPv6=
 prefix. After a heavy rainstorm, this would happen many times a day.<br>
<br>
Yes, OK, there was a copper cable fault and it took &lt;unmentionable compa=
ny&gt; many months to fix it. OK, maybe the ISP shouldn&#39;t regenerate a =
prefix every time. But that&#39;s real life and I suspect I am one of milli=
ons.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">This smells of the local BRAS pool dial up model.=C2=A0 In the same sit=
uation, that wouldn&#39;t happen to me because I have a stable /56 associat=
ed with my user account.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>If you&#39;re using PPPoE, you can specify the access concentrator you wan=
t to (re)attach to.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">One =
common AC/BRAS/NAS implementation caches IPv4 pool assignments to user acco=
unts, so that if the same account re-attaches, the same IPv4 pool address i=
s given back to it. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if that also occurs with IP=
v6 pool delegated prefix assignments.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<br>
Regards<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000cc909f0595c69ecb--


From nobody Sat Oct 26 11:24:34 2019
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 25/10/19 22:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>     Renumbering is not "common" but it certainly happens.
> ....> People imply it is a regular and routine event...
> 
> Sadly, it is. For example, at my previous apartment there was a badly waterproofed joint somewhere between me and the nearest street cabinet, so for months I frequently lost ADSL synch... and when it came back, I got new IPv6 prefix. After a heavy rainstorm, this would happen many times a day.
> 
> Yes, OK, there was a copper cable fault and it took <unmentionable company> many months to fix it. OK, maybe the ISP shouldn't regenerate a prefix every time. But that's real life and I suspect I am one of millions.

Indeed you are. In fact, I presented this topic at a recent LACNOG
meeting, and we had at least three guys, from different countries,
coming to the mike, noting they have experienced this, noting that they
wished we did something about it. The document itself is a product of a
conversation with an ISP (from a completely different geographical zone).

Particularly when it's the user that experiences the problem, I think we
are not of much help when instead of improving robustness, we complain
about how the world should be a different places.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator
>> and the
>> RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.
>>=20
>> With the following exception, I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying this =
on the client
>> side:
>> +Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to specifically
>> allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid
>> lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
>> this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.
>=20
> Could you please elaborate on this one?

I=E2=80=99m not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a =
specific call-out that
even if the current behavior of =E2=89=A42 hours =3D 2 hours is to be =
preserved, there should
be a special case for =E2=80=9C0 seconds=E2=80=9D which causes the =
prefix to be immediately
deprecated with extreme prejudice.

Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing a prefix with a 0 =
second
valid lifetime as an invalid prefix and immediately deprecate it from =
the interface
if it is in use.


>=20
>=20
>=20
>> I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to =
CPE and
>> router behavior should be standardized and implemented.
>>=20
>>> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the =
valid
>>> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that =
lack
>>> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do =
not
>>> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After =
two
>>> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
>>=20
>> In the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a single =
router on
>> the network or
>> at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with =
no
>> persistent
>> memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a
>> scenario,
>> it seems to me that the following are also likely valid assumptions:
>>=20
>> +The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to demand.
>> +The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably
>> an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.
>>=20
>> However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those
>> assumptions
>> won=E2=80=99t hold true and we should not seek to solve this problem =
(which is
>> generally
>> applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of all =
of
>> those
>> other professionally administered environments.
>=20
> Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
> upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
> prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
> improvement to what we have now.

I don=E2=80=99t like this idea because I can think of some scenarios =
where you
may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the prefix in the
same time frame that router B has not sent an additional RA containing
the prefix, but it will do so in its next RA.

There is no requirement for all routers on the same link to provide the
same set of PIOs, nor are they required to use the same advertisement
timers.

I agree that it=E2=80=99s a bit of a corner case and it=E2=80=99s =
certainly not an ideal way
to configure a network, but it is not entirely unlikely to happen in the
real world, it is within the current RFCs, it is valid functionality and =
it
is not broken by the expected behaviors today.

>> In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their
>> previous values
>> for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and =
the
>> announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate =
that
>> the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer =
be
>> considered on-link.
>=20
> Not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate?

Sure=E2=80=A6 In section 3.2.1 of your document, you advocate that if =
the previously
valid PIOs were set A=3D1 and/or L=3D1, then those values of the A and L =
bits
should be preserved in the RAs sent to deprecate them.

My argument is that since you are attempting to make this a prefix that =
hosts
will no longer autoconfigure (A) and will no longer consider on-link =
(L), that
in reality, regardless of the previous state of the A and L bits in the =
RAs
announcing the prefix in a valid PIO, the new RAs since the prefix has =
been
deprecated should be sent with A=3D0, L=3D0 in order to signal the host
that this prefix should not be auto configured and should no longer be
considered on-link.

>> Is there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts =
poorly
>> with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?
>>=20
>> Finally, An editorial note=E2=80=A6 In Section 3, you state =
=E2=80=9CFinally, Section
>> 2.5 analyzes=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
>> I believe this is intended to be a reference to section 3.2.2.
>=20
> Nope. Section 3.2.2 talks about the interaction between dhcpv6-pd and
> slaac. BUt it is section 2.5 that discusses other considerations for
> dynamic/stable prefixes. For example, stable prefixes are not nice for
> privacy.


Fair enough, but in that case, I don=E2=80=99t think I would put it =
after the description of section 3.2,
nor would I use the word =E2=80=9CFinally=E2=80=9D as a lead-in to a =
back-reference.

Owen





--Apple-Mail=_F20575FC-0DC7-479C-94C8-B953F19CF3AF
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">It is =
worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator<br =
class=3D"">and the<br class=3D"">RFC suggested defaults should never be =
a hard-coded value.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">With the following =
exception, I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying this on the client<br =
class=3D"">side:<br class=3D"">+Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be =
amended to specifically<br class=3D"">allow the immediate deprecation of =
a prefix by sending a valid<br class=3D"">lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts =
should be required to honor<br class=3D"">this as a signal that the =
prefix is no longer valid.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Could you please elaborate on =
this one?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a specific =
call-out that</div><div>even if the current behavior of =E2=89=A42 hours =
=3D 2 hours is to be preserved, there should</div><div>be a special case =
for =E2=80=9C0 seconds=E2=80=9D which causes the prefix to be =
immediately</div><div>deprecated with extreme prejudice.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing =
a prefix with a 0 second</div><div>valid lifetime as an invalid prefix =
and immediately deprecate it from the interface</div><div>if it is in =
use.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I do =
think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to CPE and<br =
class=3D"">router behavior should be standardized and implemented.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">A better =
mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid<br =
class=3D"">lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router =
that lack<br class=3D"">the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two =
consecutive RAs that do not<br class=3D"">contain the existing prefix, =
reduce the preferred lifetime. After two<br class=3D"">additional RAs, =
reduce the valid lifetime.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">In =
the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a single =
router on<br class=3D"">the network or<br class=3D"">at least only one =
router announcing the prefix(es) in question with no<br =
class=3D"">persistent<br class=3D"">memory of the prefixes it was =
announcing across a reboot. In such a<br class=3D"">scenario,<br =
class=3D"">it seems to me that the following are also likely valid =
assumptions:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+The network has significant =
excess bandwidth compared to demand.<br class=3D"">+The small overhead =
of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably<br class=3D"">an =
acceptable tradeoff in this environment.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where =
those<br class=3D"">assumptions<br class=3D"">won=E2=80=99t hold true =
and we should not seek to solve this problem (which is<br =
class=3D"">generally<br class=3D"">applicable to residential and SMB =
environments) at the expense of all of<br class=3D"">those<br =
class=3D"">other professionally administered environments.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a =
prefix</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">upon, say, =
second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">prefix after many other RAs are =
received, that would be a *big*</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">improvement to what we have now.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I don=E2=80=99t =
like this idea because I can think of some scenarios where =
you</div><div>may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the =
prefix in the</div><div>same time frame that router B has not sent an =
additional RA containing</div><div>the prefix, but it will do so in its =
next RA.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>There is no requirement for =
all routers on the same link to provide the</div><div>same set of PIOs, =
nor are they required to use the same =
advertisement</div><div>timers.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
agree that it=E2=80=99s a bit of a corner case and it=E2=80=99s =
certainly not an ideal way</div><div>to configure a network, but it is =
not entirely unlikely to happen in the</div><div>real world, it is =
within the current RFCs, it is valid functionality and it</div><div>is =
not broken by the expected behaviors today.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">In =
section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their<br =
class=3D"">previous values<br class=3D"">for prefixes which are being =
deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and the<br class=3D"">announcements =
calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate that<br =
class=3D"">the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no =
longer be<br class=3D"">considered on-link.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Not sure I follow. Could you =
please elaborate?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Sure=E2=80=A6 In section 3.2.1 of your document, you =
advocate that if the previously</div><div>valid PIOs were set A=3D1 =
and/or L=3D1, then those values of the A and L bits</div><div>should be =
preserved in the RAs sent to deprecate them.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>My argument is that since you are attempting to =
make this a prefix that hosts</div><div>will no longer autoconfigure (A) =
and will no longer consider on-link (L), that</div><div>in reality, =
regardless of the previous state of the A and L bits in the =
RAs</div><div>announcing the prefix in a valid PIO, the new RAs since =
the prefix has been</div><div>deprecated should be sent with A=3D0, L=3D0 =
in order to signal the host</div><div>that this prefix should not be =
auto configured and should no longer be</div><div>considered =
on-link.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Is =
there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly<br =
class=3D"">with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid =
prefixes?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Finally, An editorial note=E2=80=A6=
 In Section 3, you state =E2=80=9CFinally, Section<br class=3D"">2.5 =
analyzes=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">I believe this is intended to =
be a reference to section 3.2.2.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Nope. Section 3.2.2 talks about =
the interaction between dhcpv6-pd and</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">slaac. BUt it is section 2.5 that discusses other =
considerations for</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">dynamic/stable prefixes. For example, stable prefixes are not =
nice for</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">privacy.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>Fair enough, but in that =
case, I don=E2=80=99t think I would put it after the description of =
section 3.2,</div><div>nor would I use the word =E2=80=9CFinally=E2=80=9D =
as a lead-in to a back-reference.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 18:57:55 +1100
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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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So in summary, the proposal is to update RFCs, change 100s of millions
of CPE implementations, and billions of IPv6 host implementations, to
accommodate some ISPs who want to cling to an obsolete dynamic and
dial up origin address provisioning model for always on Internet
connections?

Robustness is useful, however there needs to be a determined threshold
where, beyond that, the cost of adding robustness exceeds the cost of
properly fixing the problem that created the need for additional
robustness in the first place.

Making all CPE and all IPv6 hosts more robust to work around a problem
caused by some ISPs' address provisioning systems and models is going
to be far more expensive and incur costs on everybody (IETF, CPE
vendors and host vendors, and their customers who indirectly pay CPE
and host implementation costs), compared to those ISPs accepting that
IPv6 customers require persistent prefixes and paying the costs of
making changes to their own address provisioning systems.

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, 15:48 Owen DeLong, <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
> It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator
> and the
> RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.
>
> With the following exception, I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying this on =
the client
> side:
> +Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to specifically
> allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid
> lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
> this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.
>
>
> Could you please elaborate on this one?
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a spec=
ific call-out that
> even if the current behavior of =E2=89=A42 hours =3D 2 hours is to be pre=
served, there should
> be a special case for =E2=80=9C0 seconds=E2=80=9D which causes the prefix=
 to be immediately
> deprecated with extreme prejudice.
>
> Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing a prefix with a 0 seco=
nd
> valid lifetime as an invalid prefix and immediately deprecate it from the=
 interface
> if it is in use.
>
>
>
>
>
> I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to CPE an=
d
> router behavior should be standardized and implemented.
>
> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
>
>
> In the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a single rou=
ter on
> the network or
> at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with no
> persistent
> memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a
> scenario,
> it seems to me that the following are also likely valid assumptions:
>
> +The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to demand.
> +The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably
> an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.
>
> However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those
> assumptions
> won=E2=80=99t hold true and we should not seek to solve this problem (whi=
ch is
> generally
> applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of all of
> those
> other professionally administered environments.
>
>
> Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
> upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
> prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
> improvement to what we have now.
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t like this idea because I can think of some scenarios wher=
e you
> may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the prefix in the
> same time frame that router B has not sent an additional RA containing
> the prefix, but it will do so in its next RA.
>
> There is no requirement for all routers on the same link to provide the
> same set of PIOs, nor are they required to use the same advertisement
> timers.
>
> I agree that it=E2=80=99s a bit of a corner case and it=E2=80=99s certain=
ly not an ideal way
> to configure a network, but it is not entirely unlikely to happen in the
> real world, it is within the current RFCs, it is valid functionality and =
it
> is not broken by the expected behaviors today.
>
> In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their
> previous values
> for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and the
> announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate that
> the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer be
> considered on-link.
>
>
> Not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate?
>
>
> Sure=E2=80=A6 In section 3.2.1 of your document, you advocate that if the=
 previously
> valid PIOs were set A=3D1 and/or L=3D1, then those values of the A and L =
bits
> should be preserved in the RAs sent to deprecate them.
>
> My argument is that since you are attempting to make this a prefix that h=
osts
> will no longer autoconfigure (A) and will no longer consider on-link (L),=
 that
> in reality, regardless of the previous state of the A and L bits in the R=
As
> announcing the prefix in a valid PIO, the new RAs since the prefix has be=
en
> deprecated should be sent with A=3D0, L=3D0 in order to signal the host
> that this prefix should not be auto configured and should no longer be
> considered on-link.
>
> Is there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly
> with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?
>
> Finally, An editorial note=E2=80=A6 In Section 3, you state =E2=80=9CFina=
lly, Section
> 2.5 analyzes=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
> I believe this is intended to be a reference to section 3.2.2.
>
>
> Nope. Section 3.2.2 talks about the interaction between dhcpv6-pd and
> slaac. BUt it is section 2.5 that discusses other considerations for
> dynamic/stable prefixes. For example, stable prefixes are not nice for
> privacy.
>
>
>
> Fair enough, but in that case, I don=E2=80=99t think I would put it after=
 the description of section 3.2,
> nor would I use the word =E2=80=9CFinally=E2=80=9D as a lead-in to a back=
-reference.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Sun Oct 27 05:02:47 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present, the IS=
Ps are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.   If we =E2=80=
=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does that help, or does i=
t just encourage them to continue doing it?

What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s deprecated=
 is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=99t take v=
ery long.   And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the link, that a=
ddress should have a valid lifetime newer than the old prefix, meaning that t=
he next TCP connection should come from that new prefix, not the old one.

I think Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but shor=
tening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens up an opport=
unity for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the lo=
cal network and break everything all at once.

If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs that d=
eprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to upgrade millions=
 or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for something that=E2=80=99s a re=
al improvement?

First of all, fix CPEs so that they definitely support clean deprecation of p=
refixes using PD.  Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s non-repudiable by a d=
evice that doesn=E2=80=99t have the secret key.

SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve a too-b=
ig problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the basic idea is go=
od: include a public key in every RA that can be used to validate that the R=
A was signed with the corresponding private key.=20

When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If so, it=
 came from the same router, and can be trusted to update whatever informatio=
n that router sent, including flash-deprecating a prefix.   If not, ignore i=
t.

This avoids the problem of validating which RAs are good RAs: you just do wh=
at you=E2=80=99re doing now with RAs.  But if an RA goes out that supersedes=
 a previous RA, you don=E2=80=99t let it supersede it unless it=E2=80=99s pr=
ovably from the same source.  I=E2=80=99m currently doing something similar w=
ith DNSSD Service Registration Protocol, using ECDSA, and the implementation=
 has a small enough footprint to run on IoT devices.  Something like this wo=
uld make SEND/CGA a bit more useful, I think.

Note that this would not be required for hosts, and hence would not create u=
nwanted privacy properties for host addresses.   Also, when used e.g. in a h=
otspot setting where it might be desirable to vary addresses, that=E2=80=99s=
 okay, because a new key can be generated regularly as long as the prefix on=
 the local link doesn=E2=80=99t need to be deprecated.


From nobody Sun Oct 27 05:34:03 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Ted Lemon wrote on 27/10/2019 12:02:
> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs
> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
> something that’s a real improvement?
> 
> First of all, fix CPEs so that they definitely support clean
> deprecation of prefixes using PD.  Second, fix RA so that it’s
> non-repudiable by a device that doesn’t have the secret key.
you mean, turn it into stateful address autoconfiguration? :-)

This isn't a criticism of what you're suggesting btw. It's an 
observation that the design philosophy behind SLAAC has intrinsic 
problems that cannot be resolved without dealing with state and state 
transfer, and that maybe we need to take a critical look at SLAAC and 
make potentially difficult decisions about whether or not it's fit for 
purpose for common deployment situations.

Nick


From nobody Sun Oct 27 06:42:07 2019
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 14:41:54 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> This isn't a criticism of what you're suggesting btw. It's an
> observation that the design philosophy behind SLAAC has intrinsic
> problems that cannot be resolved without dealing with state and
> state transfer, and that maybe we need to take a critical look at
> SLAAC and make potentially difficult decisions about whether or
> not it's fit for purpose for common deployment situations.

In this particular case (a CPE rebooting and getting a different prefix from
the ISP), SLAAC has for the most part what we need.

The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes advertised using
SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale prefixes
after a reboot.

Note that we could change SLAAC to allow the lifetime of a prefix to be
set to zero, instead of having to wait for 2 hours. That might be an
improvement but requires careful analsysis.


From nobody Sun Oct 27 06:54:45 2019
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> =
wrote:
> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes =
advertised using
> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale =
prefixes
> after a reboot.

Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us assume =
prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then when the CPE =
comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the prefix it had =
previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still valid.  This can =
be handled in infrastructure=E2=80=94the ISP edge router should know =
whether the prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be =
advertising a route for it.   If it is not still valid, then the CPE =
router should attempt to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server =
(possibly both messages would).  If the lease on the address is still =
valid, the ISP should renew the lease and not issue a new one.   It is a =
misconfiguration for some other thing to happen in this case.   This =
would then re-establish the route in the ISP edge router.

If the ISP wants to deprecate the old prefix, the thing to do is not to =
fail to renew it, but rather to renew it with a preferred lifetime of =
zero and offer another prefix with a preferred lifetime that is not =
zero.   The CPE router should in this case advertise both prefixes, with =
the applicable lifetimes.  Using my limited SEND proposal, the =
advertisement with a preferred lifetime of zero would be immediately =
seen by all hosts that implement limited SEND, and they would start =
using the new preferred prefix.  Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement =
limited SEND would still behave correctly, but might take longer to stop =
using the old prefix.  This should be okay because the old valid =
lifetime is still valid.

That=E2=80=99s the way things should go when everything is working =
correctly.   If however the ISP=E2=80=99s DHCP server loses its cookies =
and can=E2=80=99t renew the old prefix, then we=E2=80=99d see the new =
behavior where hosts that implement limited SEND could immediately see =
that the old prefix was no longer usable, and would stop using it in =
preference to the new prefix.   Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement =
limited SEND would behave as they behave today.

And in the DoS attack case, because the attacker doesn=E2=80=99t have =
the limited SEND key that was used to advertise the prefix that it is =
attacking, only hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement limited SEND would =
even see the attack.  These hosts would reject any RA proposing a =
lifetime shorter than two hours.   So the DoS attack would be useless =
both for hosts that implement limited SEND and hosts that don=E2=80=99t.


--Apple-Mail=_9B4FF6A1-4731-4D19-921C-D1E41909455D
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com" =
class=3D"">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes =
advertised using</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to =
invalidate stale prefixes</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">after a reboot.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Actually I do not believe this is correct =
behavior. &nbsp; Let us assume prefix delegation. &nbsp; If we have =
prefix delegation, then when the CPE comes back from a power cycle, it =
should reconfirm the prefix it had previously; the assumption is that =
that prefix is still valid. &nbsp;This can be handled in =
infrastructure=E2=80=94the ISP edge router should know whether the =
prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be advertising a route =
for it. &nbsp; If it is not still valid, then the CPE router should =
attempt to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server (possibly both =
messages would). &nbsp;If the lease on the address is still valid, the =
ISP should renew the lease and not issue a new one. &nbsp; It is a =
misconfiguration for some other thing to happen in this case. &nbsp; =
This would then re-establish the route in the ISP edge router.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the ISP wants to =
deprecate the old prefix, the thing to do is not to fail to renew it, =
but rather to renew it with a preferred lifetime of zero and offer =
another prefix with a preferred lifetime that is not zero. &nbsp; The =
CPE router should in this case advertise both prefixes, with the =
applicable lifetimes. &nbsp;Using my limited SEND proposal, the =
advertisement with a preferred lifetime of zero would be immediately =
seen by all hosts that implement limited SEND, and they would start =
using the new preferred prefix. &nbsp;Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement =
limited SEND would still behave correctly, but might take longer to stop =
using the old prefix. &nbsp;This should be okay because the old valid =
lifetime is still valid.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s the way things should go when everything is =
working correctly. &nbsp; If however the ISP=E2=80=99s DHCP server loses =
its cookies and can=E2=80=99t renew the old prefix, then we=E2=80=99d =
see the new behavior where hosts that implement limited SEND could =
immediately see that the old prefix was no longer usable, and would stop =
using it in preference to the new prefix. &nbsp; Hosts that don=E2=80=99t =
implement limited SEND would behave as they behave today.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And in the DoS attack =
case, because the attacker doesn=E2=80=99t have the limited SEND key =
that was used to advertise the prefix that it is attacking, only hosts =
that don=E2=80=99t implement limited SEND would even see the attack. =
&nbsp;These hosts would reject any RA proposing a lifetime shorter than =
two hours. &nbsp; So the DoS attack would be useless both for hosts that =
implement limited SEND and hosts that don=E2=80=99t.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_9B4FF6A1-4731-4D19-921C-D1E41909455D--


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In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:54:36 -0400 ." <DC2F31E2-8CA4-483A-B1A1-6730A904BA32@fugue.com> 
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:07:26 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>    Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us
>    assume prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then
>    when the CPE comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm
>    the prefix it had previously; the assumption is that that prefix
>    is still valid.  

This is not required behavior for a DHCP client. Traditionally, a client
does not have to write a lease it received in persistent storage. In 
fact, in the case of DHCPv6-PD in some cases that actually triggers bugs
on the ISP side and delays obtaining a new lease.

Now I'm not opposed to trying to renew the previous lease. It makes the
whole thing more complex and probably more fragile, but it is the right
thing to do.

However, the thing that actuualy makes it work (and no need for SEND there)
is to have the CPE to advertise a stale prefix with lifetimes zero to
inform hosts that this prefix no long works.



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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On 27 Oct 2019, at 14:42, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
>>=20
>> This isn't a criticism of what you're suggesting btw. It's an
>> observation that the design philosophy behind SLAAC has intrinsic
>> problems that cannot be resolved without dealing with state and
>> state transfer, and that maybe we need to take a critical look at
>> SLAAC and make potentially difficult decisions about whether or
>> not it's fit for purpose for common deployment situations.
>=20
> In this particular case (a CPE rebooting and getting a different prefix fr=
om
> the ISP), SLAAC has for the most part what we need.
>=20
> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes advertised us=
ing
> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale prefi=
xes
> after a reboot.
>=20
> Note that we could change SLAAC to allow the lifetime of a prefix to be
> set to zero, instead of having to wait for 2 hours. That might be an
> improvement but requires careful analsysis.

Can you explain how operating a public service should work on this type of n=
etwork?

Cheers=20
Ole


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> Indeed, this would also
> not actually solve the problem.   At present, the ISPs are doing
> something that is out of spec and causes problems.   If we fix this
> by accommodating what they do, does that help, or does it just
> encourage them to continue doing it?

At the moment, ISPs are doing something that sort of works in IPv4 because
of NAT. It causes significant issues in IPv6.

Of course, can we can tell ISPs that they are doing it wrong and that they
should not deploy IPv6 until they have fixed their networks.

I would like to have IPv6 now. And if that requires some tweaks to deal with
broken behavior then so be it.

> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out
> RAs that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here,
> to upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
> something thats a real improvement?

Because bundling features is a good way to ensure that nothing gets done.

Dealing with flash renumbering in the CPE is a relatively small tweak that
can be implemented at any time.

> Second, fix RA so that its
> non-repudiable by a device that doesnt have the secret key.

If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to 
talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything for
flash renumbering. From an operational point of view, RA-guard is much
more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is any
need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need
to discuss SEND we could do that separately.

This discussion is on how to deal with flash renumbering.



From nobody Sun Oct 27 09:30:03 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 04:57, Mark Smith wrote:
> So in summary, the proposal is to update RFCs, change 100s of millions
> of CPE implementations, and billions of IPv6 host implementations, to
> accommodate some ISPs who want to cling to an obsolete dynamic and
> dial up origin address provisioning model for always on Internet
> connections?

Once more: the CPE router case is just *one of many* scenarios that may
lead to the problem described in the document.

The discussion about CPEs has to do with the CPEs doing what is right --
regardless of whether the ISP renumbers or not.

Robustness has a lot to do with being able to gracefully handle the case
when others screw up.


> Robustness is useful, however there needs to be a determined threshold
> where, beyond that, the cost of adding robustness exceeds the cost of
> properly fixing the problem that created the need for additional
> robustness in the first place.

Could you please point at any specific part of the document that you
object to?



> Making all CPE and all IPv6 hosts more robust to work around a problem

What we describe is what CPEs should be doing to respect the protocol
semantics.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
> If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to=20
> talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything =
for
> flash renumbering. =46rom an operational point of view, RA-guard is =
much
> more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is any
> need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need
> to discuss SEND we could do that separately.

I think you missed my point.  You can=E2=80=99t do flash renumbering by =
advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that will be =
ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it would be a very =
effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to be able to flash =
deprecate a route, you need some way to validate that the deprecation is =
coming from the same source as the route.   Hence my suggested =
=E2=80=9Climited SEND=E2=80=9D.

Limited SEND would not be hard to implement.   Yes, it would be =
marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept flash =
deprecation of prefixes.   But nobody with any sense is going to =
implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to =
work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn=E2=80=99t =
create a massive attack vector.


--Apple-Mail=_C6234B18-87C1-44E3-9486-71D73A38866A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com" =
class=3D"">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel =
free to<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">talk about =
it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything for</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">flash =
renumbering. =46rom an operational point of view, RA-guard is =
much</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">more =
attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is =
any</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">need for =
SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">to discuss =
SEND we could do that separately.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think you missed my point. &nbsp;You =
can=E2=80=99t do flash renumbering by advertising a prefix with a valid =
lifetime of zero, because that will be ignored by hosts. &nbsp; If it =
were not ignored by hosts, it would be a very effective DoS vector. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;And so if you want to be able to flash deprecate a route, =
you need some way to validate that the deprecation is coming from the =
same source as the route. &nbsp; Hence my suggested =E2=80=9Climited =
SEND=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Limited SEND would not be hard to implement. &nbsp; Yes, it =
would be marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept =
flash deprecation of prefixes. &nbsp; But nobody with any sense is going =
to implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to =
work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn=E2=80=99t =
create a massive attack vector.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C6234B18-87C1-44E3-9486-71D73A38866A--


From nobody Sun Oct 27 12:05:02 2019
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2019 16:03:38 +0100 ." <44F39DE2-E142-4ED0-853E-2F3AAC6F4ADE@employees.org> 
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:04:45 +0100
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/gWVQdkG4a4Hov3HUk6VBRnCdf8I>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> > In this particular case (a CPE rebooting and getting a different prefix fro
> m
> > the ISP), SLAAC has for the most part what we need.
> >
> > The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes advertised usi
> ng
> > SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale prefix
> es
> > after a reboot.
> >
> > Note that we could change SLAAC to allow the lifetime of a prefix to be
> > set to zero, instead of having to wait for 2 hours. That might be an
> > improvement but requires careful analsysis.
> 
> Can you explain how operating a public service should work on this
> type of network?

Could you be more specific what you consider a 'public service' and what
you expect to break?

What I described is basically what happens on IPv4 when a CPE uses NAT 
and gets a new IPv4 address from the ISP.

Flash renumbering is far from ideal, but a reality on the current internet.
Any application that is suitable for home use is expected to deal with that
scenario.

Note that with automatic DNS updates, you can probably run a mail server (or
your personal 'cloud') on such a link. But that is not a common use case
at the moment.



From nobody Sun Oct 27 12:06:19 2019
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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 08:06:12 +1300
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 28-Oct-19 05:29, Fernando Gont wrote:
...
> Robustness has a lot to do with being able to gracefully handle the case
> when others screw up.

This. We can't make the world perfect, but we can make individual components
that expect imperfection.

    Brian


From nobody Sun Oct 27 12:31:26 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 07:07 , Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>=20
>>   Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us
>>   assume prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then
>>   when the CPE comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm
>>   the prefix it had previously; the assumption is that that prefix
>>   is still valid. =20
>=20
> This is not required behavior for a DHCP client. Traditionally, a =
client
> does not have to write a lease it received in persistent storage. In=20=

> fact, in the case of DHCPv6-PD in some cases that actually triggers =
bugs
> on the ISP side and delays obtaining a new lease.
>=20
> Now I'm not opposed to trying to renew the previous lease. It makes =
the
> whole thing more complex and probably more fragile, but it is the =
right
> thing to do.
>=20
> However, the thing that actuualy makes it work (and no need for SEND =
there)
> is to have the CPE to advertise a stale prefix with lifetimes zero to
> inform hosts that this prefix no long works.

How does the CPE identify a stale prefix if it hasn=E2=80=99t written =
its previous prefixes
to persistent storage?

Owen


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Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <m1iOk6q-0000IyC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <855496CB-BF7E-41E6-B273-41C4AA771E41@fugue.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/0c8OheQfFN7gQdUHsSlqnrlHIF4>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 10:14 , Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>> If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to=20
>> talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything =
for
>> flash renumbering. =46rom an operational point of view, RA-guard is =
much
>> more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is any
>> need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need
>> to discuss SEND we could do that separately.
>=20
> I think you missed my point.  You can=E2=80=99t do flash renumbering =
by advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that will =
be ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it would be a =
very effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to be able to flash =
deprecate a route, you need some way to validate that the deprecation is =
coming from the same source as the route.   Hence my suggested =
=E2=80=9Climited SEND=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Limited SEND would not be hard to implement.   Yes, it would be =
marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept flash =
deprecation of prefixes.   But nobody with any sense is going to =
implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to =
work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn=E2=80=99t =
create a massive attack vector.

It=E2=80=99s only a DOS vector if the attacker is already on-LAN.

I recognize that there are environments where that is expected behavior =
(e.g. Coffee Shop Wifi, University networks, etc.),but
it=E2=80=99s not the case for the average residential CPE and =
residential LAN segments.

In the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts to =
be likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be using
SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99d =
want stateful DHCP in such instances.

Owen


--Apple-Mail=_5B4460ED-68D4-4A40-BAAE-975C08F6AC8A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at 10:14 , Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at =
11:05 AM, Philip Homburg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com"=
 class=3D"">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">If you think =
that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">talk about =
it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything for</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">flash =
renumbering. =46rom an operational point of view, RA-guard is =
much</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">more =
attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is =
any</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">need for =
SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">to discuss =
SEND we could do that separately.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think you missed my point. &nbsp;You =
can=E2=80=99t do flash renumbering by advertising a prefix with a valid =
lifetime of zero, because that will be ignored by hosts. &nbsp; If it =
were not ignored by hosts, it would be a very effective DoS vector. =
&nbsp; &nbsp;And so if you want to be able to flash deprecate a route, =
you need some way to validate that the deprecation is coming from the =
same source as the route. &nbsp; Hence my suggested =E2=80=9Climited =
SEND=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Limited SEND would not be hard to implement. &nbsp; Yes, it =
would be marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept =
flash deprecation of prefixes. &nbsp; But nobody with any sense is going =
to implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to =
work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn=E2=80=99t =
create a massive attack vector.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>It=E2=80=99s only a DOS vector if the attacker is =
already on-LAN.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I recognize that =
there are environments where that is expected behavior (e.g. Coffee Shop =
Wifi, University networks, etc.),but</div><div>it=E2=80=99s not the case =
for the average residential CPE and residential LAN =
segments.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In the vast majority of =
situations where I would expect hostile hosts to be likely to be on LAN, =
I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be using</div><div>SLAAC for address =
assignment in the first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99d want stateful =
DHCP in such instances.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_5B4460ED-68D4-4A40-BAAE-975C08F6AC8A--


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:44:43 -0400
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Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <e67f597d-93a7-3882-3a12-69519178893d@foobar.org> <m1iOinq-0000J3C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <DC2F31E2-8CA4-483A-B1A1-6730A904BA32@fugue.com> <A96A5C76-93AE-40E4-BA52-776F9277C382@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 27, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> So this still requires that the CPE has written the lease to =
persistent storage. Currently many CPE do not do this.

Strictly speaking, if the CPE asks for a PD, and the server had already =
given it a prefix, it should get the same prefix, even if renumbering is =
happening; in the case of renumbering, it should get two prefixes, and =
should use one as the preferred prefix and the other as a deprecated =
prefix.   There is actually no need to write the prefix to stable =
storage if the DHCP server is behaving correctly.

However, in the case of incorrect behavior, end users will see more =
stable behavior in the case that the CPE remembers the old prefix.

> I don=E2=80=99t know of a single DHCPv6 server which operates that way =
currently. Can you point to a working example?

Honestly, I have no idea.  But that is what the RFC says you should do.  =
 If existing DHCP servers aren=E2=80=99t doing this, they are not fully =
implementing the specification.  I think in general, current DHCP =
servers just don=E2=80=99t allow you to cleanly deprecate a prefix, =
because nobody asked for this capability.   DHCP servers I know of will =
not renumber at all.   You can trick them into forcing a flash renumber =
by hacking the lease database, but that=E2=80=99s not correct behavior.

> While there may be advantages to limited SEND, I don=E2=80=99t see =
that as a reason not to implement this particular fix across the board =
since it would benefit both hosts implementing limited SEND as well as =
hosts not implementing it.

To which fix are you referring?



--Apple-Mail=_A84FE1D5-1ECB-42E5-A213-F67F85443ED9
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 27, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">So =
this still requires that the CPE has written the lease to persistent =
storage. Currently many CPE do not do this.</div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Strictly speaking, if the CPE asks for a PD, and =
the server had already given it a prefix, it should get the same prefix, =
even if renumbering is happening; in the case of renumbering, it should =
get two prefixes, and should use one as the preferred prefix and the =
other as a deprecated prefix. &nbsp; There is actually no need to write =
the prefix to stable storage if the DHCP server is behaving =
correctly.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>However, in the case of =
incorrect behavior, end users will see more stable behavior in the case =
that the CPE remembers the old prefix.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t=
 know of a single DHCPv6 server which operates that way currently. Can =
you point to a working example?</blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Honestly, I have no idea. &nbsp;But =
that is what the RFC says you should do. &nbsp; If existing DHCP servers =
aren=E2=80=99t doing this, they are not fully implementing the =
specification. &nbsp;I think in general, current DHCP servers just =
don=E2=80=99t allow you to cleanly deprecate a prefix, because nobody =
asked for this capability. &nbsp; DHCP servers I know of will not =
renumber at all. &nbsp; You can trick them into forcing a flash renumber =
by hacking the lease database, but that=E2=80=99s not correct =
behavior.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">While there may be =
advantages to limited SEND, I don=E2=80=99t see that as a reason not to =
implement this particular fix across the board since it would benefit =
both hosts implementing limited SEND as well as hosts not implementing =
it.</blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To which fix are =
you referring?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:46:13 -0400
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Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <m1iOk6q-0000IyC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <855496CB-BF7E-41E6-B273-41C4AA771E41@fugue.com> <3E4C671B-A03E-4A3F-A68B-5849BDCC6267@delong.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/ZML9J1fmA99Xywb6fLA6tpCrsdk>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 27, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> In the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts =
to be likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be using
> SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99=
d want stateful DHCP in such instances.

Hostile hosts happen when you get hit with malware, e.g. ransomware.   =
Being resilient in situations like this is important, even if they =
aren=E2=80=99t all that common, because the cost of non-resilience is so =
high.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 27, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">In =
the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts to be =
likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be =
using</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most =
likely, I=E2=80=99d want stateful DHCP in such =
instances.</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hostile hosts happen when you get hit with malware, e.g. =
ransomware. &nbsp; Being resilient in situations like this is important, =
even if they aren=E2=80=99t all that common, because the cost of =
non-resilience is so high.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Sun Oct 27 13:02:40 2019
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 21:02:24 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>    I think you missed my point.  You can't do flash renumbering by
>    advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that
>    will be ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it
>    would be a very effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to
>    be able to flash deprecate a route, you need some way to validate
>    that the deprecation is coming from the same source as the route.
>    Hence my suggested "limited SEND".

Today, you can deprecate a prefix by sending an RA with the preferred lifetime
set to zero. That is enough to get IPv6 at the same level as IPv4.

Without RA-guard or SEND there are already quite a lot of opportunities to
perform both a denial of service attack and a man in the middle attack
on a local LAN.

I'm not sure if the protection against advertising a zero valid lifetime
is actually worth it. Any network that worries about local malicious 
hosts probably already uses RA-guard (or possibly SEND). 

In any case, it doesn't matter to the CPE whether the host will accept
zero valid time or not. The CPE can just send them and then a separate
document can either instruct hosts to accept all RAs with zero valid time
or require some for of SEND.

The key thing is that without any protocol modifications we can get IPv6
at the same level as IPv4. 

If we make more extensive modifications to the host, then there is no 
reason to rely on RA timers and the host could handle unmodified CPEs.



From nobody Sun Oct 27 13:11:53 2019
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 21:11:19 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> How does the CPE identify a stale prefix if it hasnt written its
> previous prefixes to persistent storage?

Writing prefixes to persistent storage is a key element in letting the
CPE deal with this issue.



From nobody Sun Oct 27 13:18:00 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 06:54 , Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes =
advertised using
>> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale =
prefixes
>> after a reboot.
>=20
> Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us assume =
prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then when the CPE =
comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the prefix it had =
previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still valid.  This can =
be handled in infrastructure=E2=80=94the ISP edge router should know =
whether the prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be =
advertising a route for it.   If it is not still valid, then the CPE =
router should attempt to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server =
(possibly both messages would).  If the lease on the address is still =
valid, the ISP should renew the lease and not issue a new one.   It is a =
misconfiguration for some other thing to happen in this case.   This =
would then re-establish the route in the ISP edge router.

So this still requires that the CPE has written the lease to persistent =
storage. Currently many CPE do not do this.

I agree that the CPE should attempt to reconfirm/renew the existing =
prefix lease. However, if that fails for some reason (and there are =
multiple scenarios which present valid reasons this could fail without =
misconfiguration on either side), I think that the behavior described is =
preferable to simply removing the old prefix from RAs and waiting for =
them to time out on the unsuspecting hosts. Especially in the case of 1 =
week preferred and 1 month valid lifetime timers.

> If the ISP wants to deprecate the old prefix, the thing to do is not =
to fail to renew it, but rather to renew it with a preferred lifetime of =
zero and offer another prefix with a preferred lifetime that is not =
zero.   The CPE router should in this case advertise both prefixes, with =
the applicable lifetimes.  Using my limited SEND proposal, the =
advertisement with a preferred lifetime of zero would be immediately =
seen by all hosts that implement limited SEND, and they would start =
using the new preferred prefix.  Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement =
limited SEND would still behave correctly, but might take longer to stop =
using the old prefix.  This should be okay because the old valid =
lifetime is still valid.

Can you point to any authoritative document which supports this =
particular mechanism?

I don=E2=80=99t know of a single DHCPv6 server which operates that way =
currently. Can you point to a working example?

> That=E2=80=99s the way things should go when everything is working =
correctly.   If however the ISP=E2=80=99s DHCP server loses its cookies =
and can=E2=80=99t renew the old prefix, then we=E2=80=99d see the new =
behavior where hosts that implement limited SEND could immediately see =
that the old prefix was no longer usable, and would stop using it in =
preference to the new prefix.   Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement =
limited SEND would behave as they behave today.

While there may be advantages to limited SEND, I don=E2=80=99t see that =
as a reason not to implement this particular fix across the board since =
it would benefit both hosts implementing limited SEND as well as hosts =
not implementing it.

Owen


--Apple-Mail=_BD2A8DBD-9943-41E1-84D7-4A38241C43D5
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at 06:54 , Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at =
9:41 AM, Philip Homburg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com" =
class=3D"">pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The little =
bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes advertised =
using</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">SLAAC to =
persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale =
prefixes</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">after a =
reboot.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior. &nbsp; =
Let us assume prefix delegation. &nbsp; If we have prefix delegation, =
then when the CPE comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the =
prefix it had previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still =
valid. &nbsp;This can be handled in infrastructure=E2=80=94the ISP edge =
router should know whether the prefix is still valid, because if it is =
it should be advertising a route for it. &nbsp; If it is not still =
valid, then the CPE router should attempt to renew it, which would go to =
the DHCP server (possibly both messages would). &nbsp;If the lease on =
the address is still valid, the ISP should renew the lease and not issue =
a new one. &nbsp; It is a misconfiguration for some other thing to =
happen in this case. &nbsp; This would then re-establish the route in =
the ISP edge router.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So this still requires that the CPE has written =
the lease to persistent storage. Currently many CPE do not do =
this.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I agree that the CPE should =
attempt to reconfirm/renew the existing prefix lease. However, if that =
fails for some reason (and there are multiple scenarios which present =
valid reasons this could fail without misconfiguration on either side), =
I think that the behavior described is preferable to simply removing the =
old prefix from RAs and waiting for them to time out on the unsuspecting =
hosts. Especially in the case of 1 week preferred and 1 month valid =
lifetime timers.</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">If the ISP wants to deprecate the old prefix, =
the thing to do is not to fail to renew it, but rather to renew it with =
a preferred lifetime of zero and offer another prefix with a preferred =
lifetime that is not zero. &nbsp; The CPE router should in this case =
advertise both prefixes, with the applicable lifetimes. &nbsp;Using my =
limited SEND proposal, the advertisement with a preferred lifetime of =
zero would be immediately seen by all hosts that implement limited SEND, =
and they would start using the new preferred prefix. &nbsp;Hosts that =
don=E2=80=99t implement limited SEND would still behave correctly, but =
might take longer to stop using the old prefix. &nbsp;This should be =
okay because the old valid lifetime is still =
valid.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Can you =
point to any authoritative document which supports this particular =
mechanism?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t know of a =
single DHCPv6 server which operates that way currently. Can you point to =
a working example?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s the way things should go when =
everything is working correctly. &nbsp; If however the ISP=E2=80=99s =
DHCP server loses its cookies and can=E2=80=99t renew the old prefix, =
then we=E2=80=99d see the new behavior where hosts that implement =
limited SEND could immediately see that the old prefix was no longer =
usable, and would stop using it in preference to the new prefix. &nbsp; =
Hosts that don=E2=80=99t implement limited SEND would behave as they =
behave today.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>While there may be advantages to limited SEND, I =
don=E2=80=99t see that as a reason not to implement this particular fix =
across the board since it would benefit both hosts implementing limited =
SEND as well as hosts not implementing it.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_BD2A8DBD-9943-41E1-84D7-4A38241C43D5--


From nobody Sun Oct 27 13:21:31 2019
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:46:13 -0400 ." <FB1EEF1D-1D5D-4DEE-B433-ADC3904D7917@fugue.com> 
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 21:21:24 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>    Hostile hosts happen when you get hit with malware, e.g.
>    ransomware.  Being resilient in situations like this is important,
>    even if they aren't all that common, because the cost of
>    non-resilience is so high.

As far as I know, nobody (in a home situation) is worried about malware
performing ARP spoofing.

If there is a variant of SEND that is both easy to deploy and can effectively
prevent denial of service by a malicious local host, then it is certainly
worth discussing. But I still think it should a separate discussion and
not as part of dealing with flash renumbering.



From nobody Sun Oct 27 15:04:02 2019
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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 09:37:01 +1100
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 06:06 Brian E Carpenter, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 28-Oct-19 05:29, Fernando Gont wrote:
> ...
> > Robustness has a lot to do with being able to gracefully handle the case
> > when others screw up.
>

> This. We can't make the world perfect, but we can make individual
> components
> that expect imperfection.
>


This is not what I said, as it is implying that I said there is no need for
robustness.

Robustness suffers from the law of diminishing returns. At some point the
cost to design and implement robustness exceeds the either the likelihood
it will be needed or the benefit it returns if needs to be used.

Sugar is sometimes poured into the fuel tanks of cars, which will destroy
the engine. It is not common and is done maliciously. If robustness should
be universal, does that mean car engines should be made impervious to
sugar, at great expense to everybody, despite the need for that robustness
being rare?

Some ISPs are shifting the cost and consequences of their design decision,
which they can change, onto the IETF, CPE vendors and host implementers,
and indirectly their customers'. Are they willing to pay these other
parties to fix a problem that they are both causing and could fix
themselves?

(Can I bill these ISPs for the time I spent implementing the
'DeprecatePrefix' and 'DecrementLifetimes' options in 'radvd' in 2011 that
address this problem? Those options have limitations that I still don't
think are acceptable, which is why ISPs fixing their backend systems is
still the best solution.)



>     Brian
>

--0000000000002e6bbf0595ec0777
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 06:06 Brian E Ca=
rpenter, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 28-Oct-19 05:29, Fernando Gont wrote:<br>
...<br>
&gt; Robustness has a lot to do with being able to gracefully handle the ca=
se<br>
&gt; when others screw up.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
This. We can&#39;t make the world perfect, but we can make individual compo=
nents<br>
that expect imperfection.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div>This is not what I said, as it is i=
mplying that I said there is no need for robustness.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Robustness suffers from the law of diminishing returns. At some point th=
e cost to design and implement robustness exceeds the either the likelihood=
 it will be needed or the benefit it returns if needs to be used.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Sugar is sometimes poured into the fuel tanks of cars, whic=
h will destroy the engine. It is not common and is done maliciously. If rob=
ustness should be universal, does that mean car engines should be made impe=
rvious to sugar, at great expense to everybody, despite the need for that r=
obustness being rare?</div><div><br></div><div>Some ISPs are shifting the c=
ost and consequences of their design decision, which they can change, onto =
the IETF, CPE vendors and host implementers, and indirectly their customers=
&#39;. Are they willing to pay these other parties to fix a problem that th=
ey are both causing and could fix themselves?</div><div><br></div><div></di=
v><div>(Can I bill these ISPs for the time I spent implementing the &#39;De=
precatePrefix&#39; and &#39;DecrementLifetimes&#39; options in &#39;radvd&#=
39; in 2011 that address this problem? Those options have limitations that =
I still don&#39;t think are acceptable, which is why ISPs fixing their back=
end systems is still the best solution.)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</div>

--0000000000002e6bbf0595ec0777--


From nobody Sun Oct 27 15:52:21 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 23:52:15 +0100
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>>> Note that we could change SLAAC to allow the lifetime of a prefix to =
be
>>> set to zero, instead of having to wait for 2 hours. That might be an
>>> improvement but requires careful analsysis.
>>=20
>> Can you explain how operating a public service should work on this
>> type of network?
>=20
> Could you be more specific what you consider a 'public service' and =
what
> you expect to break?

The (only) value (sic) of IPv6 to end-users is retoration of end to end =
connectivity at the network layer.

I challenge you to find in the "real world" of end-users many with much =
trust in the ad-based "you are the product" centralised services in the =
current Internet.
IPv6 was meant to allow end-users to run decentralized services.

- hidden primary DNS
- mail
- web
- home-automation
- video conferencing
- jabber

All of those have great open source software.
To use Owen's paragraph:
"I don=E2=80=99t know of a single server which operates that way =
currently. Can you point to a working example?"

Assuming all the moving parts required were updated to support flash =
renumbering (I have little proof they even support graceful =
renumbering),=20
if the end-user cannot trust the lifetimes in the delegated prefix, DNS =
with TTL=3D1s is presumably the only choice?


> What I described is basically what happens on IPv4 when a CPE uses NAT=20=

> and gets a new IPv4 address from the ISP.

If making IPv6 no better than IPv4 + NAT, then stick with IPv4 + NAT.
IPv4 NAT scales very well as it turns out.

> Flash renumbering is far from ideal, but a reality on the current =
internet.
> Any application that is suitable for home use is expected to deal with =
that
> scenario.

We don't need IPv6 to maintain the status quo.

> Note that with automatic DNS updates, you can probably run a mail =
server (or
> your personal 'cloud') on such a link. But that is not a common use =
case
> at the moment.

And don't get me wrong, I'm all for making IPv6 addressing / onlink =
behaviour more robust.
But not justified in this way that can be seen to allow for practices =
that removes any benefit of IPv6 over IPv4/NAT.

Ole=


From nobody Mon Oct 28 01:52:16 2019
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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 09:52:02 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> The (only) value (sic) of IPv6 to end-users is retoration of end
> to end connectivity at the network layer.

End users at not really part of the equation at the moment. Many people have
tried to convince their ISPs to provide IPv6 and failed.

For home use, IPv6 is what you get when the ISP has decided that providing 
IP services over IPv6 instead of or next to IPv4 is worth it.

This is not my ideal world. But realistically, we live in a world that still
has to transition away from IPv4. 

> I challenge you to find in the "real world" of end-users many with
> much trust in the ad-based "you are the product" centralised services
> in the current Internet.  IPv6 was meant to allow end-users to run
> decentralized services.

This is a separate issue. The problem started when people paid for
connectivity but assumed they paid for internet services. There are plenty
of providers for mail, messaging, etc. where you are not the product. But
very few customers are willing to pay extra for such services.

At the same time, where an ISP does provide stable addresses,
most people find it hard to run services at home.

> - hidden primary DNS - mail - web - home-automation - video
> conferencing - jabber

Many people have a more or less fixed IPv4 address. Setting up a few port
forwards in a CPE is not that hard (and with IPv6, you have to do the same
for the firewall in the CPE).

Yet very few people run these services at home.

Basically, the market value for those service at a residential home is zero.

> Assuming all the moving parts required were updated to support
> flash renumbering (I have little proof they even support graceful
> renumbering), if the end-user cannot trust the lifetimes in the
> delegated prefix, DNS with TTL=1s is presumably the only choice?

ISPs that do flash renumbering, typically do that after a link down event.
Assuming those events are rare (and ISPs have an incentive to make them
rare because it interferes with watching video), then a TTL of a few
minutes should work.

> If making IPv6 no better than IPv4 + NAT, then stick with IPv4 +
> NAT.  IPv4 NAT scales very well as it turns out.
 
IPv4 NAT doesn't scale very well when law enforcement wakes up and find out
that a single IP address means lots of different people at the same time.

IPv4 NAT also doesn't scale very well when it comes to bandwidth.

For large ISPs, IPv4 NAT is also annoying from a network management point of
view because it is not possible to uniquely number all devices in the 
network.

Plenty of reasons for an ISP to move to IPv6 even if they don't care about
providing end-to-end connectivity.

> We don't need IPv6 to maintain the status quo.

We are out of IPv4 addresses. There is a lot of demand for IPv4 addresses
and the lack of them is a barrier against entry.

> And don't get me wrong, I'm all for making IPv6 addressing / onlink
> behaviour more robust.  But not justified in this way that can be
> seen to allow for practices that removes any benefit of IPv6 over
> IPv4/NAT.

The current internet has moved to lots of short lived flows. If we can
tune systems that new address information propagates quickly, both on the
local network and in DNS, then unstable prefixes could very well something
we can live with.

In fact, we can also use the letsencrypt argument: by having short lived
certificates letencrypt strongly encourages automating the whole process.
Lots of tooling popped up to support that model.

Right now we are stuck in a model where too many files are hand edited with
address and prefix information. At the same time, everybody expects
phones and laptops to seemlessly move between networks, picking up new
addresses and removing stale ones as they move around.



From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:18:09 2019
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From: Kristian McColm <kristianmccolm@hotmail.com>
To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> For large ISPs, IPv4 NAT is also annoying from a network management point=
 of view because it is not possible to uniquely number all devices in the n=
etwork.

For cellular networks, NAT is also very expensive when we talk about CGN (b=
oth NAT44 and NAT64) and by simply deploying dual-stacked connectivity to y=
our users you can immediately reduce CG-NAT requirement by around 60%, due =
to most cellular data traffic being to native IPv6 enabled sites like YouTu=
be, Facebook, Instagram etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg
Sent: October 28, 2019 04:52
To: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workaroun=
ds

> The (only) value (sic) of IPv6 to end-users is retoration of end to=20
> end connectivity at the network layer.

End users at not really part of the equation at the moment. Many people hav=
e tried to convince their ISPs to provide IPv6 and failed.

For home use, IPv6 is what you get when the ISP has decided that providing =
IP services over IPv6 instead of or next to IPv4 is worth it.

This is not my ideal world. But realistically, we live in a world that stil=
l has to transition away from IPv4.=20

> I challenge you to find in the "real world" of end-users many with=20
> much trust in the ad-based "you are the product" centralised services=20
> in the current Internet.  IPv6 was meant to allow end-users to run=20
> decentralized services.

This is a separate issue. The problem started when people paid for connecti=
vity but assumed they paid for internet services. There are plenty of provi=
ders for mail, messaging, etc. where you are not the product. But very few =
customers are willing to pay extra for such services.

At the same time, where an ISP does provide stable addresses, most people f=
ind it hard to run services at home.

> - hidden primary DNS - mail - web - home-automation - video=20
> conferencing - jabber

Many people have a more or less fixed IPv4 address. Setting up a few port f=
orwards in a CPE is not that hard (and with IPv6, you have to do the same f=
or the firewall in the CPE).

Yet very few people run these services at home.

Basically, the market value for those service at a residential home is zero=
.

> Assuming all the moving parts required were updated to support flash=20
> renumbering (I have little proof they even support graceful=20
> renumbering), if the end-user cannot trust the lifetimes in the=20
> delegated prefix, DNS with TTL=3D1s is presumably the only choice?

ISPs that do flash renumbering, typically do that after a link down event.
Assuming those events are rare (and ISPs have an incentive to make them rar=
e because it interferes with watching video), then a TTL of a few minutes s=
hould work.

> If making IPv6 no better than IPv4 + NAT, then stick with IPv4 + NAT. =20
> IPv4 NAT scales very well as it turns out.
=20
IPv4 NAT doesn't scale very well when law enforcement wakes up and find out=
 that a single IP address means lots of different people at the same time.

IPv4 NAT also doesn't scale very well when it comes to bandwidth.

For large ISPs, IPv4 NAT is also annoying from a network management point o=
f view because it is not possible to uniquely number all devices in the net=
work.

Plenty of reasons for an ISP to move to IPv6 even if they don't care about =
providing end-to-end connectivity.

> We don't need IPv6 to maintain the status quo.

We are out of IPv4 addresses. There is a lot of demand for IPv4 addresses a=
nd the lack of them is a barrier against entry.

> And don't get me wrong, I'm all for making IPv6 addressing / onlink=20
> behaviour more robust.  But not justified in this way that can be seen=20
> to allow for practices that removes any benefit of IPv6 over IPv4/NAT.

The current internet has moved to lots of short lived flows. If we can tune=
 systems that new address information propagates quickly, both on the local=
 network and in DNS, then unstable prefixes could very well something we ca=
n live with.

In fact, we can also use the letsencrypt argument: by having short lived ce=
rtificates letencrypt strongly encourages automating the whole process.
Lots of tooling popped up to support that model.

Right now we are stuck in a model where too many files are hand edited with=
 address and prefix information. At the same time, everybody expects phones=
 and laptops to seemlessly move between networks, picking up new addresses =
and removing stale ones as they move around.


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:19:56 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Neighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers: Operational Considerations
        Author          : Jen Linkova
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-00.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2019-10-28

Abstract:
   Neighbor Discovery (RFC4861) is used by IPv6 nodes to determine the
   link-layer addresses of neighboring nodes as well as to discover and
   maintain reachability information.  This document discusses how the
   neighbor discovery state machine on a first-hop router is causing
   user-visible connectivity issues when a new (not being seen on the
   network before) IPv6 address is being used.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:22:04 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Philip,

I didn't see your answer to:
"I don=E2=80=99t know of a single server which operates that way =
currently. Can you point to a working example?"

I take it the answer is: "currently none"?

Ole

> On 28 Oct 2019, at 09:52, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> The (only) value (sic) of IPv6 to end-users is retoration of end
>> to end connectivity at the network layer.
>=20
> End users at not really part of the equation at the moment. Many =
people have
> tried to convince their ISPs to provide IPv6 and failed.
>=20
> For home use, IPv6 is what you get when the ISP has decided that =
providing=20
> IP services over IPv6 instead of or next to IPv4 is worth it.
>=20
> This is not my ideal world. But realistically, we live in a world that =
still
> has to transition away from IPv4.=20
>=20
>> I challenge you to find in the "real world" of end-users many with
>> much trust in the ad-based "you are the product" centralised services
>> in the current Internet.  IPv6 was meant to allow end-users to run
>> decentralized services.
>=20
> This is a separate issue. The problem started when people paid for
> connectivity but assumed they paid for internet services. There are =
plenty
> of providers for mail, messaging, etc. where you are not the product. =
But
> very few customers are willing to pay extra for such services.
>=20
> At the same time, where an ISP does provide stable addresses,
> most people find it hard to run services at home.
>=20
>> - hidden primary DNS - mail - web - home-automation - video
>> conferencing - jabber
>=20
> Many people have a more or less fixed IPv4 address. Setting up a few =
port
> forwards in a CPE is not that hard (and with IPv6, you have to do the =
same
> for the firewall in the CPE).
>=20
> Yet very few people run these services at home.
>=20
> Basically, the market value for those service at a residential home is =
zero.
>=20
>> Assuming all the moving parts required were updated to support
>> flash renumbering (I have little proof they even support graceful
>> renumbering), if the end-user cannot trust the lifetimes in the
>> delegated prefix, DNS with TTL=3D1s is presumably the only choice?
>=20
> ISPs that do flash renumbering, typically do that after a link down =
event.
> Assuming those events are rare (and ISPs have an incentive to make =
them
> rare because it interferes with watching video), then a TTL of a few
> minutes should work.
>=20
>> If making IPv6 no better than IPv4 + NAT, then stick with IPv4 +
>> NAT.  IPv4 NAT scales very well as it turns out.
>=20
> IPv4 NAT doesn't scale very well when law enforcement wakes up and =
find out
> that a single IP address means lots of different people at the same =
time.
>=20
> IPv4 NAT also doesn't scale very well when it comes to bandwidth.
>=20
> For large ISPs, IPv4 NAT is also annoying from a network management =
point of
> view because it is not possible to uniquely number all devices in the=20=

> network.
>=20
> Plenty of reasons for an ISP to move to IPv6 even if they don't care =
about
> providing end-to-end connectivity.
>=20
>> We don't need IPv6 to maintain the status quo.
>=20
> We are out of IPv4 addresses. There is a lot of demand for IPv4 =
addresses
> and the lack of them is a barrier against entry.
>=20
>> And don't get me wrong, I'm all for making IPv6 addressing / onlink
>> behaviour more robust.  But not justified in this way that can be
>> seen to allow for practices that removes any benefit of IPv6 over
>> IPv4/NAT.
>=20
> The current internet has moved to lots of short lived flows. If we can
> tune systems that new address information propagates quickly, both on =
the
> local network and in DNS, then unstable prefixes could very well =
something
> we can live with.
>=20
> In fact, we can also use the letsencrypt argument: by having short =
lived
> certificates letencrypt strongly encourages automating the whole =
process.
> Lots of tooling popped up to support that model.
>=20
> Right now we are stuck in a model where too many files are hand edited =
with
> address and prefix information. At the same time, everybody expects
> phones and laptops to seemlessly move between networks, picking up new
> addresses and removing stale ones as they move around.
>=20
>=20


From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:31:57 2019
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:31:37 +1100
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Subject: [v6ops] Neighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers: New Drafts Posted.
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Hello,

During v6ops session at IETF105 it was suggested that in addition to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init/
another draft is required, for 6man, which would summarise the
proposed changes to RFC4861.
So here we are: I've just submitted two drafts:

1) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-00 - the
v6ops@ WG document which is replacing
draft-linkova-v6ops-nd-cache-init. The draft discussed the operational
issues, various approaches to solve the problem and proposed solution.
The proposed changes to RFC4861 is described in
2) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-linkova-6man-grand-00

Any comments/suggestions are appreciated. I'm still not sure if it's
the best way to split those drafts.

Known Issues:
draft-linkova-6man-grand: Pls ignore the sentence in the Abstract
which suggests updating RFC4862/RFC4429. I do not think it's necessary
(but I might be wrong indeed).

-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:46:43 2019
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This message is out of focus of current discussions.

Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?

On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch 
out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at 
risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.

Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android 
computers?

I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 
computer to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android 
tablet that shows the weather report.

Alex


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    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">This message is out of
          focus of current discussions.</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">Why the presence of a
          DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">On my CPE at home, of
          ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch out: if you
          activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at
          risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">Why and how the presence
          of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android computers?</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">I would like to try this
          DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 computer to work at
          home, but I dont want to break the other Android tablet that
          shows the weather report.</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">Alex</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New"><img
            src="cid:part1.CBD69CCF.61F787A2@gmail.com" alt=""
            width="545" height="91"></font></font></p>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:21:57 +0100 ." <21E28E8F-8E91-47D6-8337-9FF0359D67B8@employees.org> 
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:50:38 +0100
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/KZyAz4jNFuCFdTS-yTGDPNpoxfA>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> I didn't see your answer to:  "I dont know of a single server which
> operates that way currently. Can you point to a working example?"
> 
> I take it the answer is: "currently none"?

Is the question whether people are running services on home networks where
the ISP uses flash renumbering?

If so, the answer is yes. There are a number of 'dynamic DNS' providers.
People use those to keep DNS up-to-date when their public IPv4 address changes.

All of this is small scale hobbyist usage (and most likely only IPv4) but
it does exist.



From nobody Mon Oct 28 02:58:38 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Philip,

>> I didn't see your answer to:  "I dont know of a single server which
>> operates that way currently. Can you point to a working example?"
>>=20
>> I take it the answer is: "currently none"?
>=20
> Is the question whether people are running services on home networks =
where
> the ISP uses flash renumbering?
>=20
> If so, the answer is yes. There are a number of 'dynamic DNS' =
providers.
> People use those to keep DNS up-to-date when their public IPv4 address =
changes.
>=20
> All of this is small scale hobbyist usage (and most likely only IPv4) =
but
> it does exist.

No, the question is if there is any host stack + server software that =
deals with flash renumbering deployed.
And that is deployable without coding.

It's the same question Owen posed for the ISP side, when challenged with =
how DHCP behaves.
The point here is that we as the IETF must also consider the end-user =
here. Not that I don't think ISPs do that too, but so far this debate =
has largely been on the premise of the opertor with little concern of =
the consequences for the user.

Cheers,
Ole=


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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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It may be that if you enable DHCPv6, SLAAC is disabled, and then Android wi=
ll not work (as they don=E2=80=99t support DHCPv6)? So probably the =E2=80=
=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is not correct =E2=80=A6

=20

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

=20

=20

=20

El 28/10/19 11:30, "v6ops en nombre de Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <v6ops-bounce=
s@ietf.org en nombre de evyncke@cisco.com> escribi=C3=B3:

=20

=EF=BB=BFAlex,

=20

Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)

=20

-=C3=A9ric

=20

From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu <alexa=
ndre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 28 October 2019 at 10:47
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?

=20

This message is out of focus of current discussions.

Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?

On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch out=
: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at risk =
of loosing their IPv6 connection'.

Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android compu=
ters?

I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 compute=
r to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android tablet that s=
hows the weather report.

Alex

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20



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=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It may be th=
at if you enable DHCPv6, SLAAC is disabled, and then Android will not work =
(as they don=E2=80=99t support DHCPv6)? So probably the =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=
=80=9D is not correct =E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;colo=
r:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN=
-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-far=
east-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>El 28/10/19 11:30, &quot;v6ops en nombre =
de Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org=
">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> en nombre de <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.c=
om">evyncke@cisco.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=3DEstiloCo=
rreo18>=EF=BB=BFAlex,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:35.4pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorreo18>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorre=
o18>Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><spa=
n class=3DEstiloCorreo18>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorreo18>-=C3=A9ric</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>v6ops &lt;v6ops-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf=
 of Alexandre Petrescu &lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b=
>Monday, 28 October 2019 at 10:47<br><b>To: </b>&quot;v6ops@ietf.org&quot; =
&lt;v6ops@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 =
breaks Android computers?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p style=3D'mar=
gin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'=
>This message is out of focus of current discussions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New"'>Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computer=
s?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I n=
oticed recently this message: 'Watch out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server=
, certain Android computers are at risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 s=
erver on the CPE breaks Android computers?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D=
'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 co=
mputer to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android tablet t=
hat shows the weather report.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Alex</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><img border=3D0 width=3D545 height=3D91 s=
tyle=3D'width:5.677in;height:.9479in' id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:image0=
01.png@01D58D83.817CCE50" alt=3D"cid:image001.png@01D58D82.F3472A90"></span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>_________=
______________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops <o:p></o:p></p></div><br>********=
**************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
http://www.theipv6company.com<br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
</body></html>

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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 11:35:19 +0100
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
References: <2b617ab1-018a-8f03-4d8b-081c09c9c88a@gmail.com> <3843CFD2-80EE-4DEF-AE59-ED9F2B271048@cisco.com> <AD3E23E5-F528-4510-BB81-245B94F779A3@consulintel.es>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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By the way, I=E2=80=99m not saying that it is correct to =E2=80=9Cdisable=
=E2=80=9D SLAAC if you enable DHCPv6, but I=E2=80=99ve seen some =E2=80=9Cb=
ad designed=E2=80=9D products that do that =E2=80=A6

=20

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

=20

=20

=20

El 28/10/19 11:34, "v6ops en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <v6ops-bounces=
@ietf.org en nombre de jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> escri=
bi=C3=B3:

=20

It may be that if you enable DHCPv6, SLAAC is disabled, and then Android wi=
ll not work (as they don=E2=80=99t support DHCPv6)? So probably the =E2=80=
=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is not correct =E2=80=A6

=20

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

=20

=20

=20

El 28/10/19 11:30, "v6ops en nombre de Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <v6ops-bounce=
s@ietf.org en nombre de evyncke@cisco.com> escribi=C3=B3:

=20

=EF=BB=BFAlex,

=20

Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)

=20

-=C3=A9ric

=20

From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu <alexa=
ndre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 28 October 2019 at 10:47
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?

=20

This message is out of focus of current discussions.

Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?

On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch out=
: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at risk =
of loosing their IPv6 connection'.

Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android compu=
ters?

I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 compute=
r to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android tablet that s=
hows the weather report.

Alex

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DES link=3D"#0563C1" v=
link=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>By the way, =
I=E2=80=99m not saying that it is correct to =E2=80=9Cdisable=E2=80=9D SLAA=
C if you enable DHCPv6, but I=E2=80=99ve seen some =E2=80=9Cbad designed=E2=
=80=9D products that do that =E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-U=
S style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DES-TRAD style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=
=3DES-TRAD style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bot=
tom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DES-TRAD style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-=
fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span lang=3DES-TRAD style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-=
US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DES-TRAD s=
tyle=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>El 28/10/=
19 11:34, &quot;v6ops en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> en nombre de =
<a href=3D"mailto:jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org">jordi.pale=
t=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<o:p></o:p></p></=
div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span la=
ng=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It may be =
that if you enable DHCPv6, SLAAC is disabled, and then Android will not wor=
k (as they don=E2=80=99t support DHCPv6)? So probably the =E2=80=9Cmessage=
=E2=80=9D is not correct =E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:=
black'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><s=
pan lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language=
:EN-US'>Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><spa=
n lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:E=
N-US'>@jordipalet</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-langua=
ge:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
argin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast=
-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareas=
t-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'>El 28/10/19 11:30, &quot;v6ops en nombre de =
Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v=
6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> en nombre de <a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com"=
>evyncke@cisco.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorre=
o18>=EF=BB=BFAlex,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margi=
n-left:70.8pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorreo18>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorreo18=
>Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'><span c=
lass=3DEstiloCorreo18>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:70.8pt'><span class=3DEstiloCorreo18>-=C3=A9ric</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black'>v6ops &lt;v6ops-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Al=
exandre Petrescu &lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Monda=
y, 28 October 2019 at 10:47<br><b>To: </b>&quot;v6ops@ietf.org&quot; &lt;v6=
ops@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks=
 Android computers?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p style=3D'margin-l=
eft:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thi=
s message is out of focus of current discussions.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New"'>Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I not=
iced recently this message: 'Watch out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, =
certain Android computers are at risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 se=
rver on the CPE breaks Android computers?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'=
margin-left:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 co=
mputer to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android tablet t=
hat shows the weather report.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:=
106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Alex</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:106.8pt'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><img border=3D0 width=3D545 height=3D91=
 style=3D'width:5.677in;height:.9479in' id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:imag=
e001.png@01D58D83.C7047D10" alt=3D"cid:image001.png@01D58D82.F3472A90"></sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:70.8pt'>_______=
________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><br>*************************************=
*********<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>http:/=
/www.theipv6company.com<br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message =
contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The informati=
on is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above=
 and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or=
 use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including atta=
ched files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offens=
e. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copy=
ing, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if parti=
ally, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered =
a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform abou=
t this communication and delete it.<br><br>________________________________=
_______________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/v6ops <o:p></o:p></p></div><br>*******************************=
***************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
http://www.theipv6company.com<br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
</body></html>

--B_3655107319_819479232--

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--B_3655107319_472058629--


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> No, the question is if there is any host stack + server software
> that deals with flash renumbering deployed.  And that is deployable
> without coding.

Flash renumbering is by and large not a server problem. If a request
reaches the server, then the server typically can reply. Any flow that
spans the renumbering event will be affected, but there are lots of 
other issues that also affect established flows.

If you renumber the network that contains mail servers, web servers,
xmpp servers, etc., then the servers don't really notice.

Of course, a renumbering event requires DNS to be updated, possibly changes
to firewalls, etc. But that is no different from a proper renumbering event.



From nobody Mon Oct 28 07:11:09 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Philip,

>> No, the question is if there is any host stack + server software
>> that deals with flash renumbering deployed.  And that is deployable
>> without coding.
>=20
> Flash renumbering is by and large not a server problem. If a request
> reaches the server, then the server typically can reply. Any flow that
> spans the renumbering event will be affected, but there are lots of=20
> other issues that also affect established flows.
>=20
> If you renumber the network that contains mail servers, web servers,
> xmpp servers, etc., then the servers don't really notice.
>=20
> Of course, a renumbering event requires DNS to be updated, possibly =
changes
> to firewalls, etc. But that is no different from a proper renumbering =
event.

And this is something you have tested and verified works?
For a set of typical open source packages?
See Bj=C3=B8rn's message as well.
And try to see what happens when you do this for a hidden primary DNS =
server...

The world just isn't ready for flash renumbering of networks, likely not =
graceful renumbering either.
There are not many sensible responses the end-users can come up with to =
a service provider with a network behaving this way, apart from =
isolating addressing. Aka NAT.

Cheers,
Ole=


From nobody Mon Oct 28 14:11:32 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:

> Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)

Could an alternative explanation be along the lines of :
User turns on DHCPv6 server -> CPE configures it's RA service to label =
the network as managed
End user device receives RA and finds the network is managed -> it turns =
off SLAAC
As the EU device has disabled SLAAC and doesn't support DHCPv6, it now =
loses IPv6 connectivity


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:47 PM Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.

Oh. Surprise. After I've been doing it all the time....;)

Actually it would be helpful  to define requirements/expectations. I read i=
t as:
R1: [MUST HAVE] after the renumbering host is able to open new connections
R2: [NICE TO HAVE] old connections survive the renumbering.

IMHO we shall at least enumerate the most common scenarios where R1 is
not happening and look what can be done here.
If we have a scenario when hosts end up with totally broken connectivity we=
 can:
1) say 'oh just don't do that' - however before we do this (=3D=3D produce
some BCPs) it's worth analysing if it's feasible and, more
importantly:
  --- is the party affected by the issue is the same party which is
supposed to follow the BCP?
  --- are we talking about 'fix all hosts'? (when did we deal last
time with the scenario 'a machine re-authenticated via 802.1x
successfully, changed the VLAN but kept the old IPv6 prefix'?
2) See if there is a way to mitigate at least part of the problem by
making the protocol more robust (isn't all DNA work is actually in the
same problem space?)

> IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding behi=
nd NAT, it makes it harder.
> Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?

Try to make the Internet work better, maybe? :)

> > On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >
> >
> > I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this draft=
. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always planne=
d to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realised =
that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.
> >
> > Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same locat=
ion, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery locati=
on is.
> >
> >
> > If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes, =
what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the prefixes =
stable?
> >
> > Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad e=
xperience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best suitable se=
rvice you can give them.
> >
> >
> > - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are for=
ced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has vari=
ous   hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid customer=
 hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe you can=
 make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don't want to use y=
our CPE are just out of luck.
> >
> > - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE, =
then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems wh=
en the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle this s=
ituation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly to=
 IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which case, I'd wonder=
 why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.
> >
> > See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed location,=
 and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the service and =
link itself.
> >
> > The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally c=
ontinued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although they =
were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP addre=
ss pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a single IPv4=
 address when they attach, that can change each time they attach. PPPoE is =
making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up connectivity.
> >
> > Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6 s=
ervices, where it's even less applicable now that customers get their own r=
outed address space on a semi-permanent link.
> >
> > Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the sa=
me prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route aggregati=
on boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a region.
> >
> > Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the serv=
ice they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.
> >
> > If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the only =
choice.
> >
> > See slide 6.
> >
> > Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
> > https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-wha=
t-not-to-do-and-other-observations
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for th=
is context and the others mentioned in the draft.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
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--=20
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
>=20
> Oh. Surprise. After I've been doing it all the time....;)

Oh great. So which services do you run in the network? Any issue with =
short DNS ttls?
Or do you only do this with MP-TCP / QUIC or only mosh style =
applications with a built in session layer?
I presume you have a routed network with multiple routers and links as =
well?

Ole, not sarcastic at all. ;-)


>=20
> Actually it would be helpful  to define requirements/expectations. I =
read it as:
> R1: [MUST HAVE] after the renumbering host is able to open new =
connections
> R2: [NICE TO HAVE] old connections survive the renumbering.
>=20
> IMHO we shall at least enumerate the most common scenarios where R1 is
> not happening and look what can be done here.
> If we have a scenario when hosts end up with totally broken =
connectivity we can:
> 1) say 'oh just don't do that' - however before we do this (=3D=3D =
produce
> some BCPs) it's worth analysing if it's feasible and, more
> importantly:
>  --- is the party affected by the issue is the same party which is
> supposed to follow the BCP?
>  --- are we talking about 'fix all hosts'? (when did we deal last
> time with the scenario 'a machine re-authenticated via 802.1x
> successfully, changed the VLAN but kept the old IPv6 prefix'?
> 2) See if there is a way to mitigate at least part of the problem by
> making the protocol more robust (isn't all DNA work is actually in the
> same problem space?)
>=20
>> IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding =
behind NAT, it makes it harder.
>> Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
>=20
> Try to make the Internet work better, maybe? :)
>=20
>>> On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this =
draft. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on =
always planned to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this =
scenario and realised that so many complex issues disappear if you =
provide stable prefixes.
>>>=20
>>> Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same =
location, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link =
delivery location is.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 =
prefixes, what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep =
the prefixes stable?
>>>=20
>>> Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a =
bad experience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best =
suitable service you can give them.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are =
forced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE =
has various   hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and =
avoid customer hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes =
change. Maybe you can make this work well enough, and advanced customers =
who don't want to use your CPE are just out of luck.
>>>=20
>>> - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own =
CPE, then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity =
problems when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't =
handle this situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling =
back seamlessly to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In =
which case, I'd wonder why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service =
in the first place.
>>>=20
>>> See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed =
location, and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the =
service and link itself.
>>>=20
>>> The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have =
fundamentally continued to treat residential, always on broadband =
customers although they were still dial up customers. Nothing has =
changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP address pools, pool route aggregation at the =
router, customer gets a single IPv4 address when they attach, that can =
change each time they attach. PPPoE is making Ethernet connectivity =
resemble dial up connectivity.
>>>=20
>>> Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent =
IPv6 services, where it's even less applicable now that customers get =
their own routed address space on a semi-permanent link.
>>>=20
>>> Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the =
same prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route =
aggregation boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a =
region.
>>>=20
>>> Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the =
service they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.
>>>=20
>>> If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the =
only choice.
>>>=20
>>> See slide 6.
>>>=20
>>> Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
>>> =
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-what-n=
ot-to-do-and-other-observations
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for =
this context and the others mentioned in the draft.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:53:23 -0500
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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--000000000000964ef30596005ef7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 16:11 Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk> wrote:

> Could an alternative explanation be along the lines of :
> User turns on DHCPv6 server -> CPE configures it's RA service to label the
> network as managed
> End user device receives RA and finds the network is managed -> it turns
> off SLAAC
> As the EU device has disabled SLAAC and doesn't support DHCPv6, it now
> loses IPv6 connectivity
>

No. Managed and autoconfig are separate and independent parts of the RA. We
turn the former on and the latter off on most subnets at work, but I
definitely know from experience that if you turn both on operating systems
that support both will usually happily configure *both* a DHCPv6 *and* a
SLAAC address.

>

--000000000000964ef30596005ef7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 16:11 Simon Hobson &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:linux@thehobsons.co.uk">linux@thehobsons.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Could an alternative explanation be along the lines of :<br>
User turns on DHCPv6 server -&gt; CPE configures it&#39;s RA service to lab=
el the network as managed<br>
End user device receives RA and finds the network is managed -&gt; it turns=
 off SLAAC<br>
As the EU device has disabled SLAAC and doesn&#39;t support DHCPv6, it now =
loses IPv6 connectivity<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">No. Managed and autoconfig are separate and independ=
ent parts of the RA. We turn the former on and the latter off on most subne=
ts at work, but I definitely know from experience that if you turn both on =
operating systems that support both will usually happily configure *both* a=
 DHCPv6 *and* a SLAAC address.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000964ef30596005ef7--


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> Date: October 28, 2019 at 3:06:00 PM PDT
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> =EF=BB=BFIETF 106
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> November 16-22, 2019
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From nobody Mon Oct 28 17:18:41 2019
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:18:24 +1100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 8:47 PM Alexandre Petrescu
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?
>
> On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.
>
> Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android computers?

The presence of DHCPv6 should not break Android devices (have not seen
it before).
Try it and see what happens? The only theory I have is that by
'activating DHCPv6'  your CPE actually means 'disabling SLAAC'. Then
yes, it would break things.

> I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 computer to work at home,

Get the Creator update ;) Then it would work with RDNSS ;)

-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


From nobody Mon Oct 28 18:22:41 2019
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To: v6ops@ietf.org
References: <m1iNIFE-0000IwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <d1b6855d-bde9-7b53-4809-0846bb9772e4@si6networks.com> <CAO42Z2x7vudujw5t++obry56g=VNjQXXTHFK8pBPk0jmk78Bcg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJoHkZ8pTjszP0vw4BjX0HUhmPa6wJONzdy2JEm5iqAfBUvjRg@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2wCYi4KWTEz1hUSPVr9+hu8GaHRkPuvQQ2P00knvnPaaQ@mail.gmail.com> <848BA3B3-36B4-4C42-86D0-88759BC45D5A@employees.org> <CAFU7BARBHGcxzULO-aVr+c5CJW6UCsNRkrgQSRdB7vtpYZw85w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:22:35 +1300
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 29-Oct-19 10:57, Jen Linkova wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:47 PM Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
> 
> Oh. Surprise. After I've been doing it all the time....;)
> 
> Actually it would be helpful  to define requirements/expectations. I read it as:
> R1: [MUST HAVE] after the renumbering host is able to open new connections

How long after? Milliseconds, seconds, or minutes? It makes a lot of difference to the solution.

> R2: [NICE TO HAVE] old connections survive the renumbering.

I believe that when the operators refused to consider SHIM6 ten years ago, they were telling us that they really, truly do not care about that. So this becomes an application layer robustness issue.

    Brian


From nobody Mon Oct 28 19:53:55 2019
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>=20
>> How does the CPE identify a stale prefix if it hasnt written its
>> previous prefixes to persistent storage?
>=20
> Writing prefixes to persistent storage is a key element in letting the
> CPE deal with this issue.
>=20

That=E2=80=99s what I thought, but someone called it =E2=80=9Cincorrect =
behavior=E2=80=9D, so I asked the question.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 1:02 PM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>=20
>>   I think you missed my point.  You can't do flash renumbering by
>>   advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that
>>   will be ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it
>>   would be a very effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to
>>   be able to flash deprecate a route, you need some way to validate
>>   that the deprecation is coming from the same source as the route.
>>   Hence my suggested "limited SEND".
>=20
> Today, you can deprecate a prefix by sending an RA with the preferred =
lifetime
> set to zero. That is enough to get IPv6 at the same level as IPv4.

No, this only deprecates it for new sessions. Existing sessions will =
still need to time
out before they stop trying to use the old prefix. In an ideal world, a =
mechanism to
signal the need to immediately error out such existing sessions is =
preferable.

> Without RA-guard or SEND there are already quite a lot of =
opportunities to
> perform both a denial of service attack and a man in the middle attack
> on a local LAN.

This is equally true in both IPv4 and IPv6.

> I'm not sure if the protection against advertising a zero valid =
lifetime
> is actually worth it. Any network that worries about local malicious=20=

> hosts probably already uses RA-guard (or possibly SEND).=20

One would certainly hope so.

> In any case, it doesn't matter to the CPE whether the host will accept
> zero valid time or not. The CPE can just send them and then a separate
> document can either instruct hosts to accept all RAs with zero valid =
time
> or require some for of SEND.

Agreed.

> The key thing is that without any protocol modifications we can get =
IPv6
> at the same level as IPv4.=20
>=20
> If we make more extensive modifications to the host, then there is no=20=

> reason to rely on RA timers and the host could handle unmodified CPEs.

I don=E2=80=99t think such a solution is as likely to succeed or be =
widely deployed in the
near term.

Updating CPEs is generally a much more dependable and faster process =
than
updating all hosts.

Owen



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> On Oct 27, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 27, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com =
<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
>> In the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts =
to be likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be using
>> SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99=
d want stateful DHCP in such instances.
>=20
> Hostile hosts happen when you get hit with malware, e.g. ransomware.   =
Being resilient in situations like this is important, even if they =
aren=E2=80=99t all that common, because the cost of non-resilience is so =
high.
>=20

There=E2=80=99s a difference between networks where hostile hosts can =
occur in extreme circumstances (what you describe) and networks where =
hostile hosts are expected as a normal occurrence (what I was intending =
to describe).

The type of attack and type of resilience required vary between these =
two situations as well.

Owen


--Apple-Mail=_D6459AC7-F240-4452-844E-C84B49E93283
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 27, 2019, at =
3:35 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" =
class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">In the vast majority of situations =
where I would expect hostile hosts to be likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99=
t think I=E2=80=99d be using</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">SLAAC for address assignment in the =
first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99d want stateful DHCP in such =
instances.</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hostile hosts happen when you get hit with malware, e.g. =
ransomware. &nbsp; Being resilient in situations like this is important, =
even if they aren=E2=80=99t all that common, because the cost of =
non-resilience is so high.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s a difference between networks where hostile =
hosts can occur in extreme circumstances (what you describe) and =
networks where hostile hosts are expected as a normal occurrence (what I =
was intending to describe).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">The type of attack and type of resilience required vary =
between these two situations as well.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Owen</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_D6459AC7-F240-4452-844E-C84B49E93283--


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 28, 2019, at 11:00 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>=20
> There=E2=80=99s a difference between networks where hostile hosts can occu=
r in extreme circumstances (what you describe) and networks where hostile ho=
sts are expected as a normal occurrence (what I was intending to describe).

I=E2=80=99m not following your distinction.   Bot infections can happen at a=
ny time, on any network.=


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 29/10/2019 à 01:18, Jen Linkova a écrit :
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 8:47 PM Alexandre Petrescu 
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?
>> 
>> On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 
>> 'Watch out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android 
>> computers are at risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.
>> 
>> Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks 
>> Android computers?
> 
> The presence of DHCPv6 should not break Android devices (have not 
> seen it before).

I may have not used the right word 'break'; a more conforming
translation is 'loose their IPv6 connection'.

While trying, that is what seem to happen: when turning on DHCPv6 server
on the CPE the Android stops browsing ipv6.google.com. (it could browse
when it was off).

Remark, under same conditions, my Windows PC resists well this flipping
of the DHCPv6 Server on CPE - it continues browsing ipv6.google.com
after the flipping.

> Try it and see what happens?

Thanks, I did learn a few things while trying.

> The only theory I have is that by 'activating DHCPv6'  your CPE 
> actually means 'disabling SLAAC'. Then yes, it would break things.

Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three RAs
changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and A(utonomous) flags.

Packet dumps available upon request.

>> I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1
>> computer to work at home,
> 
> Get the Creator update ;) Then it would work with RDNSS ;)

Well, I have Windows 10 latest version (not Creator), but it seems to
work ok.

The RDNSS option is present already in the RAs sent by the CPE.  But I
do not understand why would one suggest the use of RDNSS could solve
this problem.

Alex

> 


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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 28/10/2019 à 22:11, Simon Hobson a écrit :
> Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:
> 
>> Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)
> 
> Could an alternative explanation be along the lines of :
> User turns on DHCPv6 server -> CPE configures it's RA service to label the network as managed
> End user device receives RA and finds the network is managed -> it turns off SLAAC
> As the EU device has disabled SLAAC and doesn't support DHCPv6, it now loses IPv6 connectivity

After trying, I think that is what happens.

Alex

> 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 28/10/2019 à 11:35, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
> By the way, I’m not saying that it is correct to “disable” SLAAC if you 
> enable DHCPv6, but I’ve seen some “bad designed” products that do that …

Well, depends what we call SLAAC.

I agree with you some bad designed products do that.

In this particular case I think the CPE sends the proper RAs with the 
right (to me) A, M and Lifetime flags such that someone using DHCPv6 can 
do it.

Alex

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jordi
> 
> @jordipalet
> 
> El 28/10/19 11:34, "v6ops en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" 
> <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de 
> jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org 
> <mailto:jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>> escribió:
> 
> It may be that if you enable DHCPv6, SLAAC is disabled, and then Android 
> will not work (as they don’t support DHCPv6)? So probably the “message” 
> is not correct …
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jordi
> 
> @jordipalet
> 
> El 28/10/19 11:30, "v6ops en nombre de Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" 
> <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de 
> evyncke@cisco.com <mailto:evyncke@cisco.com>> escribió:
> 
> ﻿Alex,
> 
> Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)
> 
> -éric
> 
> *From: *v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu 
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 28 October 2019 at 10:47
> *To: *"v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
> 
> This message is out of focus of current discussions.
> 
> Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?
> 
> On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch 
> out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at 
> risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.
> 
> Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android 
> computers?
> 
> I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 
> computer to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android 
> tablet that shows the weather report.
> 
> Alex
> 
> cid:image001.png@01D58D82.F3472A90
> 
> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 
> 
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or 
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> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized 
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
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> 
> 
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or 
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of 
> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized 
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To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
References: <2b617ab1-018a-8f03-4d8b-081c09c9c88a@gmail.com> <3843CFD2-80EE-4DEF-AE59-ED9F2B271048@cisco.com>
From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 28/10/2019 à 11:29, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) a écrit :
> ﻿Alex,
> 
> Most probably a bug in your Free CPE (that appears to be over-zealous)

I could try to report this bug to Free or Android, if I were whose 
thinking were buggy.

Or I could propose an RA flag for GUIs to accept Androids.

Until then, I keep DHCPv6 Server off in the CPE :-(

Alex

> 
> -éric
> 
> *From: *v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu 
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 28 October 2019 at 10:47
> *To: *"v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
> 
> This message is out of focus of current discussions.
> 
> Why the presence of a DHCPv6 server breaks Android computers?
> 
> On my CPE at home, of ISP Free, I noticed recently this message: 'Watch 
> out: if you activate the DHCPv6 server, certain Android computers are at 
> risk of loosing their IPv6 connection'.
> 
> Why and how the presence of a DHCPv6 server on the CPE breaks Android 
> computers?
> 
> I would like to try this DHCPv6 server to connect my Windows 2-in-1 
> computer to work at home, but I dont want to break the other Android 
> tablet that shows the weather report.
> 
> Alex
> 


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Cc: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
References: <2b617ab1-018a-8f03-4d8b-081c09c9c88a@gmail.com> <CAFU7BATuer=XutH-G0v0cSCqmcULU2UgHe9GGhS0OhUY2brU4A@mail.gmail.com> <b43f56b8-e5d6-b875-c594-656bc6ba0b45@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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--Apple-Mail=_79EFD310-B5AB-49FD-821D-F00654458AEC
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On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three RAs
> changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and A(utonomous) =
flags.
>=20
> Packet dumps available upon request.

That=E2=80=99s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit but not =
turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at the same =
time.

Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it=E2=80=99s not too =
surprising that implementations get this wrong.


--Apple-Mail=_79EFD310-B5AB-49FD-821D-F00654458AEC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Well no. &nbsp;After &nbsp;activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE =
sent three RAs</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and =
A(utonomous) flags.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Packet dumps available upon =
request.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s the problem. &nbsp; It should turn on the =
managed bit but not turn off the autonomous bit. &nbsp;The two can =
validly be on at the same time.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Of course, since their meanings are =
deprecated, it=E2=80=99s not too surprising that implementations get =
this wrong.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_79EFD310-B5AB-49FD-821D-F00654458AEC--


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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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From nobody Tue Oct 29 06:16:02 2019
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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:15:40 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> > Today, you can deprecate a prefix by sending an RA with the preferred lifet
> ime
> > set to zero. That is enough to get IPv6 at the same level as IPv4.
> 
> No, this only deprecates it for new sessions. Existing sessions
> will still need to time out before they stop trying to use the old
> prefix. In an ideal world, a mechanism to signal the need to
> immediately error out such existing sessions is preferable.

For IPv4 + NAT, if you flash renumber the upstream address then existing
connections will be stuck.

I'm not aware of any IPv4 signalling that could even tell a host behind NAT
that the upstream address changed (with the exception of bringing the link
down).

Maybe you can be more specific why deprecating the old IPv6 prefix does not 
give the same effect as on IPv4 + NAT?

> Updating CPEs is generally a much more dependable and faster process
> than updating all hosts.

Updating CPEs should make general web browsing work after flash renumbering.
That should be enough for most users.



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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
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On Oct 29, 2019, at 10:42 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
> It's a beautiful little bit, and I like it very much. It doesn't =
deserve to be maligned like this. It has served me very well.

I just meant that the RFC that described the meaning of the =E2=80=98M=E2=80=
=99 bit explicitly has been deprecated in favor of one that does not.  =
You=E2=80=99re right about the =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 bit, and I=E2=80=99m =
sorry for maligning it.  :)


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 29, 2019, at 10:42 AM, STARK, BARBARA H &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bs7652@att.com" class=3D"">bs7652@att.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It's a =
beautiful little bit, and I like it very much. It doesn't deserve to be =
maligned like this. It has served me very =
well.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
just meant that the RFC that described the meaning of the =E2=80=98M=E2=80=
=99 bit explicitly has been deprecated in favor of one that does not. =
&nbsp;You=E2=80=99re right about the =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 bit, and I=E2=80=99=
m sorry for maligning it. &nbsp;:)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Oct 29 09:11:51 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Ted,

>> It's a beautiful little bit, and I like it very much. It doesn't =
deserve to be maligned like this. It has served me very well.
>=20
> I just meant that the RFC that described the meaning of the =E2=80=98M=E2=
=80=99 bit explicitly has been deprecated in favor of one that does not. =
 You=E2=80=99re right about the =E2=80=98A=E2=80=99 bit, and I=E2=80=99m =
sorry for maligning it.  :)

Which RFC is that?
As far as I know the M-flag is defined in RFC4861.

Cheers,
Ole=


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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:15 AM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>=20
>>> Today, you can deprecate a prefix by sending an RA with the =
preferred lifet
>> ime
>>> set to zero. That is enough to get IPv6 at the same level as IPv4.
>>=20
>> No, this only deprecates it for new sessions. Existing sessions
>> will still need to time out before they stop trying to use the old
>> prefix. In an ideal world, a mechanism to signal the need to
>> immediately error out such existing sessions is preferable.
>=20
> For IPv4 + NAT, if you flash renumber the upstream address then =
existing
> connections will be stuck.

Not exactly=E2=80=A6 They do fairly quickly get sent TCP RSTs in most =
cases.

> I'm not aware of any IPv4 signalling that could even tell a host =
behind NAT
> that the upstream address changed (with the exception of bringing the =
link
> down).

Bringing the link down quickly and resetting the session allows for the =
connection
to be re-established and continue in most cases. OTOH, leaving the =
connection
hung until it times out at the application or host TCP stack level =
creates huge
delays in service restoration.

> Maybe you can be more specific why deprecating the old IPv6 prefix =
does not=20
> give the same effect as on IPv4 + NAT?

Because the IPv4 host fairly quickly receives an RST packet when the =
outbound
packet hits a non-existent state table entry or a state table entry =
marked as dead.

OTOH, the IPv6 host doesn=E2=80=99t (currently) get any signaling from =
the local router
indicating that anything is amiss. It continues to treat the prefix as =
valid for existing
flows (and depending on the level of deprecation, i.e. whether or not a =
preferred
lifetime 0 was received) perhaps for new flows as well.

>> Updating CPEs is generally a much more dependable and faster process
>> than updating all hosts.
>=20
> Updating CPEs should make general web browsing work after flash =
renumbering.
> That should be enough for most users.


Unless the CPE knows to send out an RA with a preferred lifetime of 0 =
for the now
deprecated prefix, then you are mistaken in the actual systemic =
behavior.

Owen



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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 29, 2019, at 2:43 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 28, 2019, at 11:00 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> There=E2=80=99s a difference between networks where hostile hosts can =
occur in extreme circumstances (what you describe) and networks where =
hostile hosts are expected as a normal occurrence (what I was intending =
to describe).
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not following your distinction.   Bot infections can =
happen at any time, on any network.

Bot infections are only one kind of hostile host.

The other kind is malicious actors who have hosts that are permitted on =
your network.

The former can occur anywhere.

The latter is less common on enterprise networks and more common on =
university networks and coffee shop networks and other public access =
networks.

I thought this was pretty clear from my original post.

Owen


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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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On Oct 29, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> Which RFC is that?
> As far as I know the M-flag is defined in RFC4861.

Weird.   You are right.   I don=E2=80=99t know why I=E2=80=99m =
remembering it this way=E2=80=94I know that there was an issue, but =
I=E2=80=99m not seeing the problem I remember in the RFC.   The previous =
version doesn=E2=80=99t mention DHCP specifically, so maybe I=E2=80=99m =
remembering that version.


--Apple-Mail=_E3C954BF-7590-4EAD-941E-AB8630DC6834
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 29, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Ole Troan &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:otroan@employees.org" =
class=3D"">otroan@employees.org</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Which RFC is that?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">As far as I know the M-flag is defined in =
RFC4861.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Weird. &nbsp; You are right. &nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t know why =
I=E2=80=99m remembering it this way=E2=80=94I know that there was an =
issue, but I=E2=80=99m not seeing the problem I remember in the RFC. =
&nbsp; The previous version doesn=E2=80=99t mention DHCP specifically, =
so maybe I=E2=80=99m remembering that version.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Oct 29 11:32:18 2019
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 29/10/2019 à 13:38, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) a écrit :
> 
> Indeed. CPE router should allow keeping both M and A flags, to allow 
> simultaneous usage of DHCPv6 and SLAAC by the hosts.

At high level, it makes sense to require to allow simultaneous DHCP and
SLAAC usage on a same subnet; a private email suggests the same.
With that, Android and Windows would live ok side-by-side on same subnet.

Further, thinking about how to implement the req, one would wonder
whether the prefix in PIO with A flag set in an RA with M set, would be
the same as the prefix used by the DHCP Server to form and deliver
addresses?

(if yes, I think that is difficult to achieve: (1) difficult to put same
prefix in the software implementing RA sending, and in the DHCP server
connfig files and (2) difficult to make sure the Server does not form an
address for a Client, address that a Host has already formed in the same
prefix).

(because of that reason, I think that trying to implement that
requirement would lead to designating a prefix for SLAAC and another
prefix for DHCP; that may sound a little bit as a waste).

Alex

> 
> About time to update RFC7084 - 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7084#section-4.3
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Rajiv
> 
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ﻿ On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu 
>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three RAs
>>>  changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and
>>> A(utonomous) flags.
>>> 
>>> Packet dumps available upon request.
>> 
>> That’s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit but not 
>> turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at the
>> same time.
>> 
>> Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it’s not too 
>> surprising that implementations get this wrong.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
>>  v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Hello Li,


In the implementation it is possible to change the DUID. You need to modify=
 the linux kernel module code and recompile it.

______________
Dmytro SHYTYI



---- On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:04:29 +0200 Li HUANG <bleuoisou@gmail.com> wrot=
e ----



Oct. 19 2019=C2=A0 21:http://00.hk w10p m800 Sg|Rv





Thank you Dmytro and your group for sharing document on the specific dhcpv6=
 related topics .=C2=A0 You are welcome to share the dialog as well.=20



Hopefully Linux/Uniz further=C2=A0 OS checking around=C2=A0 would be helped=
 that from Dhcpv6DUID modifying unable remained to be the subnet concerning=
 at your convenience . Which was online arrow getting to you ...





Sincerely

mailto:BleuOisou@gmail.com

Li HUANG







On Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 20:30 Dmytro Shytyi <mailto:dmytro@shytyi.net> wrote:







Hello Li,=C2=A0



Don't you mind if we include in our disscussion the IETF v6ops working grou=
p?

In case you will not respond we will accept it as a permission to share our=
 disscussion with IETF Working group.=C2=A0

Thanks.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0


Bien cordialement,

Dmytro SHYTYI






---- On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:46 +0200 Alexandre Petrescu <mailto:alexandr=
e.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote ----



Li,=20
=20
Below you will find are some answers from Dmytro.=20
=20
I suggest we discuss this publicly on the v6ops WG email list, because=20
it is on that list that others have responded (not on DHC WG email list).=
=20
=20
=20
 1#=20
 Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.  Router node is not a=20
 final destination of forwarded packets.=20
=20
 Diagram :=20
 ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router=20
 (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)=20
=20
 && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac=20
=20
[Dmytro] In the implementation DHVPvyDUID type field is set to "1" that=20
meanse that DUID based on the link-layer Address Plus Time is used.=20
=20
example from the DANIR KD6:=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_type =3D htons(1);=
=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.hw_type =3D htons(1);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0//DUID time convert kernel vertsion to compatible o=
ption value=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ver =3D utsname()->version;=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sscanf(ver, "%*s %*s %*s %*s %s %d %d:%d:%d %*s %d"=
,ktime_month,=20
&dh6_ktime.tm_mday, &dh6_ktime.tm_hour, &dh6_ktime.tm_min,=20
&dh6_ktime.tm_sec, &dh6_ktime.tm_year);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dh6_ktime.tm_mon=3DGetMon(ktime_month);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0//pr_info( "EP KTIME: %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d", dh6_ktime=
.tm_mon,=20
dh6_ktime.tm_mday, dh6_ktime.tm_hour, dh6_ktime.tm_min,=20
dh6_ktime.tm_sec, dh6_ktime.tm_year);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 =3D=20
convertTimeDateToSeconds(dh6_ktime);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0duid_time=3Dhtonl( kernelCompilationTimeStartingFro=
m2000 & 0xffffffff);=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0memcpy=20
(&(dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_time),&duid_time,sizeof(duid_time));=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0memcpy (dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.my_hw_addr, d->de=
v->dev_addr, 48);=20
=20
 2#=20
 DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when=20
 example 2002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued.=20
=20
 &&=20
 The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs=20
 that are further used by the stateless autoconfiguration mechanism=20
 (SLAAC)=20
=20
[Dmytro] RFC 4862 specifies the Router Advertisement processing process.=20
=20
 3#=20
 Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally=20
 available and globally unique.=20
=20
 Diagram :=20
 ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router=20
 (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)=20
=20
 - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?=20
 - which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ?=20
 - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the same as the IPv4 exactly=20
 working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when the vista replaced its=20
 motherboard and having both new and initial eth.mac shown both?=20
 - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular interface of=20
 the IoT=20
 Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it reaches the element of=20
 the access network which connects to the user equipment (UEs) -=20
 eNodeB station."    likes there must be some wireless "USB.sgw.isp"=20
 host or ,  Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switch=20
 showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well?=20
 That would cause the pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map=20
 always via as if owning speed lower much than the wireless does have .=20
=20
[Dmytro] GUA is IPv6 global unique address.=20
=20
 4#=20
 your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BIOS works ?=20
=20
[Dmytro] This is linux kernel module. Linux could be ran in the=20
virtualbox in the windows environment.=20
=20
 5#=20
 "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to=20
 satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure.  To reach the=20
 PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/=20
 IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.  The=20
 corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; when=20
 the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to avoid this=20
 situation it is required to put the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6=20
 Solicit equal to 255."=20
=20
 - hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the=20
 SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed ---> no ipv6 get to switch=20
 then Rv after it ?=20
=20
=20
The packet will be discarded when Hop Limit will reach 0. When Hop Limit=20
 > 0 packet will not be discarded.=20
=20
=20
Dmytro and Alex=20
=20
=20
Le 04/10/2019 =C3=A0 16:16, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=20
> Oct. 04 2019=C2=A0 22:http://12.hk <http://12.hk> w10p m800 Sg|Rv=20
> Attn:=20
>=20
> Authors' Addresses=20
>=20
>     Dmytro Shytyi=20
>     SFR=20
>     Paris area , Ile-de-France=20
>     France=20
>=20
>     Email:mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net <mailto:mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi=
.net>=20
>     URI:http://dmytro.shytyi.net=20
>=20
>=20
> Internet-DraDHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Rou March 2019=
=20
>=20
>=20
>     Alexandre Petrescu=20
>     CEA, LIST=20
>     CEA Saclay=20
>     Gif-sur-Yvette , Ile-de-France   91190=20
>     France=20
>=20
>     Phone: +33169089223=20
>     Email:mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr <mailto:mailto:Alexandre.Petre=
scu@cea.fr>=20
>=20
>=20
> Good Day Alex and Dmytro,=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Do read through draft and thank you for your sharing .=20
>=20
> Some here could have not understood them well or clear , please help in=
=20
> details off:=20
>=20
>=20
> 1#=20
> Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.=C2=A0 Router node is not a=
=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0final destination of forwarded packets.=20
>=20
> Diagram :=20
> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router=20
> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)=20
>=20
> && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 2#=20
> DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when=20
> example 2002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued.=20
>=20
> &&=20
> The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0that are further used by the stateless autoconfiguration me=
chanism=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0(SLAAC)=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 3#=20
> Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0available and globally unique.=20
>=20
> Diagram :=20
> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router=20
> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)=20
>=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?=
=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- which GUA to be mentioned at =
the draft ?=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix t=
he same as the IPv4 exactly=20
> working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when the vista replaced its=
=20
> motherboard and having both new and initial eth.mac shown both?=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- "After the DHCPv6 packet leav=
es the cellular interface of=20
> the IoT=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it reaches the e=
lement of=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0the access network which connects to the user equipment (UE=
s) -=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0eNodeB station." =C2=A0 =C2=A0likes there must be some wire=
less "USB.sgw.isp"=20
> host or , =C2=A0Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switc=
h=20
> showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well?=20
> That would cause the pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map=20
> always via as if owning speed lower much than the wireless does have .=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 4#=20
> your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BIOS works ?=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 5#=20
> "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure.=C2=
=A0 To reach the=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW =
into UDP/=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.=
=C2=A0 The=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Lim=
it; when=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to a=
void this=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation it is required to put the Hop Limit value of the =
DHCPv6=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0Solicit equal to 255."=20
>=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- hop in s=
witch default 64 decreased to 48 then the=20
> SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed ---> no ipv6 get to switch=20
> then Rv after it ?=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 6#=20
> "It is possible to use IPv6-over-PPP protocol [RFC1661], with LCP,=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0between the ARM and the modem."=20
>=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ARM has =
added a wealth of wireless technologies to=20
> its arsenal, but has no immediate plans to design a modem for mobile or=
=20
> Internet of Things devices.=20
> The company offers CPU and GPU designs that are widely used in=20
> smartphones and tablets. A missing piece is a cellular modem that ARM=20
> customers could license and put in mobile devices."=20
>=20
>=20
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - My modem is Fibre Hua=
wai wire model, Rv, Sg all=20
> wirecable devices.=20
>=20
>=20
> 7#=20
> Could not have been able to select one who would help Modify Dhcpv6DUID=
=20
> completed , sent email to mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com=20
> <mailto:mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com> none replying .=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Sincerely=20
> mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:27 AM Alexandre Petrescu=20
> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gm=
ail.com>> wrote:=20
>=20
>     Hi Li,=20
>=20
>     IETF is not police of protocols: IETF can not force organisations to=
=20
>     implement protocols or to fix bugs.=C2=A0 But we can discuss about pr=
otocols=20
>     at IETF.=20
>=20
>     If Microsoft Windows does not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links=
=20
>     (like on cellular), then I have two things to say.=20
>=20
>     One thing is to say that Microsoft programmers should not worry.=C2=
=A0 They=20
>     are not the only ones who do not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless link=
s.=20
>     There is also Qualcomm who refuses to.=C2=A0 It may, or it may not be=
 a=20
>     problem.=C2=A0 But it is not only Microsoft.=C2=A0 An it is a good to=
pic to=20
>     work on.=20
>=20
>     The other thing is to say that it is possible to run a linux virtual=
=20
>     machine on a Microsoft Windows real machine.=C2=A0 In that linux mach=
ine,=20
>     one=20
>     can run DHCPv6-PD, on the wireless interface of the real Microsoft=20
>     Windows machine.=C2=A0 We propose open source to achieve this.=C2=A0 =
It is=20
>     available at=20
> https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-kernel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-impleme=
ntation/=20
>=20
>     (we have tried to upload it to github, but we hit a 2Gb upload limit;=
=20
>     this limit is a thing to complain to github, together with its lack o=
f=20
>     IPv6 access; and github is now a Microsoft organisation :-)=20
>=20
>     Alex and Dmytro=20
>=20
>=20
>     Le 20/09/2019 =C3=A0 01:55, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=20
>      > 08:http://47.hk <http://47.hk> <http://47.hk> S8 Sept 20 2019=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > continued...,=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > Thank you rephrasing our diagonose for assuring the points.=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > Wireless advance for dhcpv6 is imagined to experienced network map=
s.=20
>      > Which none wireless devices and plan isp at all decades.=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > Microsoft who is handing rcf3315 according modified failures,=C2=
=A0 to=20
>      > changed board OEM machine, has reached wall to resolve it inside=
=20
>     microsoft.=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > Looking for some where who would enter the juridical like=20
>     IEFT...etc.,=20
>      > in order to edge out what responsibility taken by who, if in such=
=20
>      > compromising rcf rules obeying=C2=A0 in conditions.=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > Sincerely yours=20
>      > Li HUANG=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      >=20
>      > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 21:05 Alexandre Petrescu=20
>      > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>> wrote:=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Li,=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you for the partial clarification you sen=
t in private=20
>     about 'apt=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows'.=C2=A0 I understand that by 'apt windo=
ws' you mean 'apart=20
>     from=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows', which means 'with the exception of Wi=
ndows'.=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, I think you mean that we in our draft have =
a preference=20
>     to run=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DHCPv6-PD over the wireless interface, like wit=
h a phone.=20
>     You also=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that is ok.=C2=A0 You also mean that only Windo=
ws runs DHCPv6 on a=20
>     wired=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interface; because Windows blocked DHCPv6 on ww=
an and wlan=20
>     interface.=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think you are saying that this Windows blocki=
ng DHCPv6-PD=20
>     on the=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wireless interfaces caused you a lot of trouble=
, even after=20
>     system=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0updates.=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Because of that I think you are asking that we =
make and=20
>     forward to=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Microsoft, a request to make DHCPv6-PD on the w=
ireless interface.=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I may be wrong though.=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would like to ask you: do you know somebody a=
t Microsoft=20
>     who cares=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Or should I write simply to=
=20
> mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com <mailto:mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>=
=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hoping they will direct the message to people i=
n charge?=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alex=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 09:45, Alexandre Petrescu =
a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Dear Li,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Please help me understand:=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > What do you mean by 'apt windows'?=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Alex=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 07:39, Li HUANG a =C3=
=A9crit=C2=A0:=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> 09:http://39.hk <http://39.hk> <http://39.h=
k> <http://39.hk/>=C2=A0S8=20
>     Sept 17th 2019=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Thank you dhcwg returning on this,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server sounds v=
ery like the=20
>     running=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> preferially to wireless, or phone networks =
instead of apt=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows that=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> blocked wwan, wlan services of it ...=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> To the kernel apart, OEM user would princip=
le following=20
>     its offered=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> updates of system, in case dhcpv6 required =
update, how would=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clients=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 whilst O=
EM warranty=20
>     contract=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to get=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> all none conflicts?=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Microsoft is one putting on tracking, it mu=
st be forwarded to=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0them about.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Let have your kind advises on it please .=
=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Sincerely yours=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Li HUANG=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:48 Li HUANG <mailt=
o:bleuoisou@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:mail=
to:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> <mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:=
mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com=
>>>> wrote:=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 09:http://39.hk <http://=
39.hk> <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk>=20
>     S8 Sept 17th 2019=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank you dhcwg returnin=
g on this,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IoT either PTP to dhcpv6=
 pd server sounds very like=20
>     the running=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 preferially to wireless,=
 or phone networks instead of apt=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that blocked wwan, wlan =
services of it ...=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To the kernel apart, OEM=
 user would principle=20
>     following its=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0offered=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 updates of system, in ca=
se dhcpv6 required update,=20
>     how would=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clients=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 obey protocol rcf 3315, =
8415, 6260 whilst OEM warranty=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contract to=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 get all none conflicts?=
=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Microsoft is one putting=
 on tracking, it must be=20
>     forwarded=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to them=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 about.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Let have your kind advis=
es on it please .=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sincerely yours=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Li HUANG=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 00=
:18 Alexandre Petrescu=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:alexandre.petres=
cu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 wrote:=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Hello to participants in DHC WG,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
One might be interested in this kernel=20
>     implementation of=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
DHCPv6-PD parts.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Yours,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Alex and Dmytro=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
-------- Message transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 --------=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Sujet=C2=A0:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kernel implementation of DANIR for=20
>     IoT Router -=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
DHCPv6-PD and ND=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Date=C2=A0:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:21:46 +0200=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
De=C2=A0:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexandre Petrescu=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
<mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com=20
>     <mailto:mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Pour=C2=A0: mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6=
ops@ietf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops=
@ietf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
<mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Hi,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
The kernel implementation of DANIR for IoT Router was=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0finally=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
working a few weeks ago.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
It is an implementation of=20
>     draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-03.txt.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
This is the right thing to do, instead of=20
>     '64share' RFC7278.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
In this video one can see the kernel in the IoT=20
>     Router=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues a=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
DHCPv6 PD request on its egress and obtains a /56; it=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0then makes=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
several /64s out of it and subsequently sends RAs=20
>     with=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these on=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
the ingress interfaces.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
The DHCPv6 server is took off-the-shelf.=C2=A0 The PDP=20
>     part=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is not=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
present in the IoT Router, but we expect it to=20
>     work ok=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on a ptp=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
link on a cellular network to a smartphone.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
The video recorded the virtual machines output on the=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IoT Router=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
(featured below), the Client device behind it,=20
>     and the=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DHCPv6-PD=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
server.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Yours,=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Alexandre PETRESCU and Dmytro SHYTYI=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
PS: we will soon post the source code on github.=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
_______________________________________________=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
dhcwg mailing list=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@=
ietf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dh=
cwg@ietf.org>>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg=
=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ____________________________________________=
___=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > dhcwg mailing list=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@i=
etf.org>=20
>     <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg=
=20
>      >=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
=20
>      >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dhcwg mailing list=20
>      > mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:mailt=
o:dhcwg@ietf.org=20
>     <mailto:mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>=20
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg=20
>      >=20
>
------=_Part_905399_1466798737.1572383764300
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head>=
<meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"></h=
ead><body ><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=
; font-size: 10pt;"><div>Hello Li,<br></div><div><br>In the implementation =
it is possible to change the DUID. You need to modify the linux kernel modu=
le code and recompile it.<br></div><div id=3D"Zm-_Id_-Sgn" data-zbluepencil=
-ignore=3D"true"><div>______________<br><b>Dmytro SHYTYI</b></div></div><di=
v data-zbluepencil-ignore=3D"true" style=3D"" class=3D"zmail_extra"><div><b=
r></div><div id=3D"Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:04:29 +0200 <b=
>Li HUANG &lt;bleuoisou@gmail.com&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div><div><br></di=
v><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-l=
eft: 6px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Oct. 19 2019=
&nbsp; 21:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://00.hk">00.hk</a> w10p m800 Sg=
|Rv<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thank you Dmytro and your g=
roup for sharing document on the specific dhcpv6 related topics .&nbsp; You=
 are welcome to share the dialog as well. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Hop=
efully Linux/Uniz further&nbsp; OS checking around&nbsp; would be helped th=
at from Dhcpv6DUID modifying unable remained to be the subnet concerning at=
 your convenience . Which was online arrow getting to you ...<br></div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely<br></div><div><a target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:BleuOisou@gmail.com">BleuOisou@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>=
Li HUANG<br></div></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0=
.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft: 1.0ex;" class=3D"x_29614494gmail_quote"><div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 10.0pt;"><div><blockquote=
 style=3D"border-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left: 6.0px;mar=
gin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 5.0px;"><div><div><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On=
 Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 20:30 Dmytro Shytyi &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:dmytro@shytyi.net">dmytro@shytyi.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div><br>=
</div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left: 1.0ex;"><div><u></u><br=
></div><div><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f;font-size: 10.0pt;"><div>Hello Li,&nbsp;<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don=
't you mind if we include in our disscussion the IETF v6ops working group?<=
br></div><div>In case you will not respond we will accept it as a permissio=
n to share our disscussion with IETF Working group.&nbsp;<br></div><div>Tha=
nks.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><s>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbs=
p;</s><br></div><div>Bien cordialement,<br></div><div><span class=3D"size" =
style=3D"font-size:13px"><b>Dmytro SHYTYI</b></span><br></div></div><div><b=
r></div><div><div><br></div><div>---- On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:46 +0200 <b=
>Alexandre Petrescu &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petre=
scu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div=
><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left: 6.0px;margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 5.0px;"><div>Li, <br> <br=
>Below you will find are some answers from Dmytro. <br> <br>I suggest we di=
scuss this publicly on the v6ops WG email list, because <br>it is on that l=
ist that others have responded (not on DHC WG email list). <br> <br> <br> 1=
# <br> Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.  Router node is not a =
<br> final destination of forwarded packets. <br> <br> Diagram : <br> ISP--=
-Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br> (WAN1,2=
, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac) <br> <br> &amp;&amp; DHCPv=
6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac <br> <br>[Dmyt=
ro] In the implementation DHVPvyDUID type field is set to "1" that <br>mean=
se that DUID based on the link-layer Address Plus Time is used. <br> <br>ex=
ample from the DANIR KD6: <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;=
my_client_id.duid_type =3D htons(1); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dhp.k=
d6_sol-&gt;my_client_id.hw_type =3D htons(1); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;//DUID time convert kernel vertsion to compatible option value <br> <br=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ver =3D utsname()-&gt;version; <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;sscanf(ver, "%*s %*s %*s %*s %s %d %d:%d:%d %*s %d",ktime_mon=
th, <br>&amp;dh6_ktime.tm_mday, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_hour, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_m=
in, <br>&amp;dh6_ktime.tm_sec, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_year); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;dh6_ktime.tm_mon=3DGetMon(ktime_month); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;//pr_info( "EP KTIME: %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d", dh6_ktime.tm_mon, <br=
>dh6_ktime.tm_mday, dh6_ktime.tm_hour, dh6_ktime.tm_min, <br>dh6_ktime.tm_s=
ec, dh6_ktime.tm_year); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;kernelCompilationT=
imeStartingFrom2000 =3D <br>convertTimeDateToSeconds(dh6_ktime); <br> <br>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;duid_time=3Dhtonl( kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom=
2000 &amp; 0xffffffff); <br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;memcpy <br>(&amp;(=
dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my_client_id.duid_time),&amp;duid_time,sizeof(duid_time)); =
<br> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;memcpy (dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my_client_id.my_hw=
_addr, d-&gt;dev-&gt;dev_addr, 48); <br> <br> 2# <br> DHCP-PD only can be c=
onfigured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when <br> example 2002:: input :=
: would make the app grey uncontinued. <br> <br> &amp;&amp; <br> The Router=
 Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs <br> that are further used by the st=
ateless autoconfiguration mechanism <br> (SLAAC) <br> <br>[Dmytro] RFC 4862=
 specifies the Router Advertisement processing process. <br> <br> 3# <br> G=
lobal Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally <br> available =
and globally unique. <br> <br> Diagram : <br> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : i=
sp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (w=
ire, wireless , vpn mac) <br> <br> - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ? <br> - whi=
ch GUA to be mentioned at the draft ? <br> - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix th=
e same as the IPv4 exactly <br> working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected=
 when the vista replaced its <br> motherboard and having both new and initi=
al eth.mac shown both? <br> - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular =
interface of <br> the IoT <br> Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, i=
t reaches the element of <br> the access network which connects to the user=
 equipment (UEs) - <br> eNodeB station."    likes there must be some wirele=
ss "USB.sgw.isp" <br> host or ,  Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When one=
 of 4 mac switch <br> showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting arp =
-a shown as well? <br> That would cause the pretty much lost functions of w=
ire.router.map <br> always via as if owning speed lower much than the wirel=
ess does have . <br> <br>[Dmytro] GUA is IPv6 global unique address. <br> <=
br> 4# <br> your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BIOS works ? =
<br> <br>[Dmytro] This is linux kernel module. Linux could be ran in the <b=
r>virtualbox in the windows environment. <br> <br> 5# <br> "The Hop Limit o=
f packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to <br> satisfy the prop=
erties of the cellular infrastructure.  To reach the <br> PGW from the UE t=
he DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/ <br> IPv4 packets; this=
 encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.  The <br> corresponding decapsulati=
on mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; when <br> the Hop Limit reaches value=
 0 the packet is discarded; to avoid this <br> situation it is required to =
put the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6 <br> Solicit equal to 255." <br> <br>=
 - hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the <br> SGW would not wor=
k--&gt; no dhcpv6 completed ---&gt; no ipv6 get to switch <br> then Rv afte=
r it ? <br> <br> <br>The packet will be discarded when Hop Limit will reach=
 0. When Hop Limit <br> &gt; 0 packet will not be discarded. <br> <br> <br>=
Dmytro and Alex <br> <br> <br>Le 04/10/2019 =C3=A0 16:16, Li HUANG a =C3=A9=
crit&nbsp;: <br>&gt; Oct. 04 2019&nbsp; 22:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"htt=
p://12.hk">12.hk</a> &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://12.hk">http://=
12.hk</a>&gt; w10p m800 Sg|Rv <br>&gt; Attn: <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Authors' Add=
resses <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Dmytro Shytyi <br>&gt;     SFR <br>&gt;     Pa=
ris area , Ile-de-France <br>&gt;     France <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Email:<a=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net">ietf.dmytro@shyty=
i.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi=
.net">ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     URI:<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://dmytro.shytyi.net">http://dmytro.shytyi.net</a> <br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; Internet-DraDHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Rou=
 March 2019 <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;     =
CEA, LIST <br>&gt;     CEA Saclay <br>&gt;     Gif-sur-Yvette , Ile-de-Fran=
ce   91190 <br>&gt;     France <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Phone: +33169089223 <b=
r>&gt;     Email:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea=
.fr">Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr">Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr</a>&gt; <br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Good Day Alex and Dmytro, <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt; Do read through draft and thank you for your sharing . <br>=
&gt; <br>&gt; Some here could have not understood them well or clear , plea=
se help in <br>&gt; details off: <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 1# <br>&gt; Rou=
ter - is a node, that performs forwarding.&nbsp; Router node is not a <br>&=
gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;final destination of forwarded packets. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 Diagram : <br>&gt; ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1=
)---- Router <br>&gt; (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn ma=
c) <br>&gt; <br>&gt; &amp;&amp; DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCP=
v6DUID eth.initial.mac <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2# <br>&gt; DHCP=
-PD only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when <br>&gt; e=
xample 2002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued. <br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; &amp;&amp; <br>&gt; The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs <br=
>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;that are further used by the stateless autoconfiguratio=
n mechanism <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;(SLAAC) <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&=
gt; <br>&gt; 3# <br>&gt; Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that i=
s globally <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;available and globally unique. <br>&gt; <=
br>&gt; Diagram : <br>&gt; ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , =
IANA x1)---- Router <br>&gt; (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless ,=
 vpn mac) <br>&gt; <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- GUA=
 is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ? <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;- which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ? <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the same as the IPv4 exac=
tly <br>&gt; working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when the vista rep=
laced its <br>&gt; motherboard and having both new and initial eth.mac show=
n both? <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- "After the DHC=
Pv6 packet leaves the cellular interface of <br>&gt; the IoT <br>&gt;  &nbs=
p; &nbsp;Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it reaches the element =
of <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;the access network which connects to the user equ=
ipment (UEs) - <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;eNodeB station." &nbsp; &nbsp;likes t=
here must be some wireless "USB.sgw.isp" <br>&gt; host or , &nbsp;Dhcpv6 mu=
st be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switch <br>&gt; showing Nokia , =
which sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well? <br>&gt; That would =
cause the pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map <br>&gt; always via=
 as if owning speed lower much than the wireless does have . <br>&gt; <br>&=
gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 4# <br>&gt; your freely downloadable kernal =
patch for Windows BIOS works ? <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 5# <br>&gt; "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be=
 255 to <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;satisfy the properties of the cellular infra=
structure.&nbsp; To reach the <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;PGW from the UE the DH=
CPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/ <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;IPv4 =
packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.&nbsp; The <br>&gt;  &n=
bsp; &nbsp;corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; w=
hen <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is disc=
arded; to avoid this <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;situation it is required to put=
 the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6 <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;Solicit equal to =
255." <br>&gt; <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;- hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the <br>&gt; SG=
W would not work--&gt; no dhcpv6 completed ---&gt; no ipv6 get to switch <b=
r>&gt; then Rv after it ? <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; 6# <br>&gt; "It is possible to use IPv6-over-PPP protocol [RFC1661], w=
ith LCP, <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp;between the ARM and the modem." <br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "ARM=
 has added a wealth of wireless technologies to <br>&gt; its arsenal, but h=
as no immediate plans to design a modem for mobile or <br>&gt; Internet of =
Things devices. <br>&gt; The company offers CPU and GPU designs that are wi=
dely used in <br>&gt; smartphones and tablets. A missing piece is a cellula=
r modem that ARM <br>&gt; customers could license and put in mobile devices=
." <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; - My modem is Fibre Huawai wire model, Rv, Sg all <br>&gt; wirecable d=
evices. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 7# <br>&gt; Could not have been able to =
select one who would help Modify Dhcpv6DUID <br>&gt; completed , sent email=
 to <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com">postmaste=
r@microsoft.com</a> <br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:postmaster@microsoft.com">postmaster@microsoft.com</a>&gt; none replying .=
 <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sincerely <br>&gt; <=
a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com=
</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bl=
euoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:27 AM=
 Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexan=
dre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a targ=
et=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petres=
cu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote: <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Hi Li, <br>&gt; <br>&=
gt;     IETF is not police of protocols: IETF can not force organisations t=
o <br>&gt;     implement protocols or to fix bugs.&nbsp; But we can discuss=
 about protocols <br>&gt;     at IETF. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     If Microsoft W=
indows does not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links <br>&gt;     (like on=
 cellular), then I have two things to say. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     One thing =
is to say that Microsoft programmers should not worry.&nbsp; They <br>&gt; =
    are not the only ones who do not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links.=
 <br>&gt;     There is also Qualcomm who refuses to.&nbsp; It may, or it ma=
y not be a <br>&gt;     problem.&nbsp; But it is not only Microsoft.&nbsp; =
An it is a good topic to <br>&gt;     work on. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     The ot=
her thing is to say that it is possible to run a linux virtual <br>&gt;    =
 machine on a Microsoft Windows real machine.&nbsp; In that linux machine, =
<br>&gt;     one <br>&gt;     can run DHCPv6-PD, on the wireless interface =
of the real Microsoft <br>&gt;     Windows machine.&nbsp; We propose open s=
ource to achieve this.&nbsp; It is <br>&gt;     available at <br>&gt; <a ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-kernel-dhc=
pv6-pd-and-ndp-implementation/">https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-ke=
rnel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-implementation/</a> <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     (we have t=
ried to upload it to github, but we hit a 2Gb upload limit; <br>&gt;     th=
is limit is a thing to complain to github, together with its lack of <br>&g=
t;     IPv6 access; and github is now a Microsoft organisation :-) <br>&gt;=
 <br>&gt;     Alex and Dmytro <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Le 20/09/2019 =
=C3=A0 01:55, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;: <br>&gt;      &gt; 08:<a target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://47.hk">47.hk</a> &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://47.hk">http://47.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"htt=
p://47.hk">http://47.hk</a>&gt; S8 Sept 20 2019 <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;=
      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; continued..., <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Thank you rephrasing our diagonose for assuring t=
he points. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Wireles=
s advance for dhcpv6 is imagined to experienced network maps. <br>&gt;     =
 &gt; Which none wireless devices and plan isp at all decades. <br>&gt;    =
  &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Microsoft who is handing rcf33=
15 according modified failures,&nbsp; to <br>&gt;      &gt; changed board O=
EM machine, has reached wall to resolve it inside <br>&gt;     microsoft. <=
br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Looking for some wh=
ere who would enter the juridical like <br>&gt;     IEFT...etc., <br>&gt;  =
    &gt; in order to edge out what responsibility taken by who, if in such =
<br>&gt;      &gt; compromising rcf rules obeying&nbsp; in conditions. <br>=
&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Sin=
cerely yours <br>&gt;      &gt; Li HUANG <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &=
gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      =
&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 21:05 Alexandre Petrescu <br>=
&gt;      &gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@g=
mail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a targe=
t=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petresc=
u@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt=
;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gma=
il.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote: <br>&gt;      &=
gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Dear Li, <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&=
gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Thank you for the partial clarification yo=
u sent in private <br>&gt;     about 'apt <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;windows'.&nbsp; I understand that by 'apt windows' you mean 'apart <br=
>&gt;     from <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;windows', which means =
'with the exception of Windows'. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp;So, I think you mean that we in our draft have a preference =
<br>&gt;     to run <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;DHCPv6-PD over th=
e wireless interface, like with a phone. <br>&gt;     You also <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;mean <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;that i=
s ok.&nbsp; You also mean that only Windows runs DHCPv6 on a <br>&gt;     w=
ired <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;interface; because Windows block=
ed DHCPv6 on wwan and wlan <br>&gt;     interface. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&=
gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I think you are saying that this Windows b=
locking DHCPv6-PD <br>&gt;     on the <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;wireless interfaces caused you a lot of trouble, even after <br>&gt;     s=
ystem <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;updates. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Because of that I think you are asking t=
hat we make and <br>&gt;     forward to <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;Microsoft, a request to make DHCPv6-PD on the wireless interface. <br>&g=
t;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I may be wrong though. <=
br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I would like to ask=
 you: do you know somebody at Microsoft <br>&gt;     who cares <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;about DHCPv6?&nbsp; Or should I write simply to <=
br>&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com">postm=
aster@microsoft.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:post=
master@microsoft.com">postmaster@microsoft.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:postmaster=
@microsoft.com">postmaster@microsoft.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a tar=
get=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com">postmaster@microsof=
t.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;hoping they will di=
rect the message to people in charge? <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Alex <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp;Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 09:45, Alexandre Petrescu a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;: <=
br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Dear Li, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Please hel=
p me understand: <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <br>&gt;      =
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; What do you mean by 'apt windows'? <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &g=
t; Alex <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 07:39, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit&nbsp=
;: <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; 09:<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://39.hk">39.hk</a> &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.=
hk">http://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.hk">htt=
p://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.hk/">http://39=
.hk/</a>&gt;&nbsp;S8 <br>&gt;     Sept 17th 2019 <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&=
gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Thank you dhcwg returning on thi=
s, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd se=
rver sounds very like the <br>&gt;     running <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; preferially to wireless, or phone networks instead of a=
pt <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;windows that <br>&gt;      &gt;&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; blocked wwan, wlan services of it ... <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; To the kernel ap=
art, OEM user would principle following <br>&gt;     its offered <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; updates of system, in case dhcpv6 req=
uired update, how would <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;clients <br>&=
gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 62=
60 whilst OEM warranty <br>&gt;     contract <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp;to get <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; all none con=
flicts? <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt=
; Microsoft is one putting on tracking, it must be forwarded to <br>&gt;   =
   &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;them about. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &=
gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Let have your kind advises on it please . =
<br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&g=
t;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Sincerely yours <br>&gt;      &gt=
;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Li HUANG <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 17=
, 2019, 10:48 Li HUANG &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gm=
ail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;=
      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bleuois=
ou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wro=
te: <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 09:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://39.hk">39.hk</a> &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.hk">htt=
p://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.hk">http://39.=
hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://39.hk">http://39.hk</a>&=
gt; <br>&gt;     S8 Sept 17th 2019 <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you dhcwg returning o=
n this, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt=
; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IoT ei=
ther PTP to dhcpv6 pd server sounds very like <br>&gt;     the running <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; preferially =
to wireless, or phone networks instead of apt <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;windows <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; that blocked wwan, wlan services of it ... <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <b=
r>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To the ker=
nel apart, OEM user would principle <br>&gt;     following its <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;offered <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &g=
t;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; updates of system, in case dhcpv6 required update=
, <br>&gt;     how would <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;clients <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; obey protoco=
l rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 whilst OEM warranty <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;contract to <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; get all none conflicts? <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &g=
t;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Microsoft is one putting on =
tracking, it must be <br>&gt;     forwarded <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp;to them <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; about. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;     =
 &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Let have your kind advises on it please . <br>&g=
t;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sincerely yours <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Li HUANG <br=
>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 00:18 Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;      &gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a=
> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.pet=
rescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.p=
etrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto=
:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandr=
e.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;=
mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">al=
exandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.co=
m</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre=
.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&=
gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; wrote: <br>&g=
t;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hello to particip=
ants in DHC WG, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;   =
   &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; One might be interested in this kernel <br>&gt;     implementation of =
<br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DHCPv6-PD parts. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt=
;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yours, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt=
; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Alex and Dmytro <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &g=
t;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----=
---- Message transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 -------- <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sujet&nbsp;:&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kernel implementation of DANIR for <br>&gt;     IoT Rou=
ter - <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DHCPv6-PD and ND <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;:&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:21:46 +0200 <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; De&nbsp;:&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">=
alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexa=
ndre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;=
mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">al=
exandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petr=
escu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mai=
lto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&g=
t;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gm=
ail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pour&=
nbsp;: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</=
a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@iet=
f.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v=
6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">=
v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@iet=
f.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&g=
t;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailt=
o:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &l=
t;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:=
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;=
mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi, <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt=
; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The kernel implementation of DANIR for IoT Router was <br=
>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;finally <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; working a few we=
eks ago. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It=
 is an implementation of <br>&gt;     draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-03.txt. <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; This is the right thing to do, instead of <br>&gt;     '64share=
' RFC7278. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &g=
t;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
In this video one can see the kernel in the IoT <br>&gt;     Router <br>&gt=
;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;issues a <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DHCPv6 PD request o=
n its egress and obtains a /56; it <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;th=
en makes <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; several /64s out of it and subsequently sends RAs =
<br>&gt;     with <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;these on <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; the ingress interfaces. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&g=
t; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The DHCPv6 server is took off-the-shelf.&nbsp; The PDP <=
br>&gt;     part <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;is not <br>&gt;     =
 &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; present in the IoT Router, but we expect it to <br>&gt;     work ok <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;on a ptp <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; link on a cellul=
ar network to a smartphone. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;=
 <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The video recorded the virtual machines output on the <br>=
&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IoT Router <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (featured belo=
w), the Client device behind it, <br>&gt;     and the <br>&gt;      &gt;&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;DHCPv6-PD <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; server. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <a =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM">https://youtu.be/Dy=
mVQY7bCUM</a> <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;     =
 &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yours, <br>&gt;      &gt=
;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&=
gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexandre PETRESCU and Dmytr=
o SHYTYI <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS=
: we will soon post the source code on github. <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _______________________________________=
________ <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; dhcwg mailing list <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org"=
>dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;     &=
lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.or=
g</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@=
ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;mailto:<a target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/dhcwg</a> <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; <=
br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt; _______________________________________________ <br>&gt;      &=
gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; dhcwg mailing list <br>&gt;      &gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org"=
>dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a target=3D"_blan=
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:29:14 +1100
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:36 AM Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> >> Right. Instant/flash renumbering is not supported in IP networks.
> >
> > Oh. Surprise. After I've been doing it all the time....;)
>
> Oh great. So which services do you run in the network? Any issue with sho=
rt DNS ttls?

Well, I'm quite lucky. First of all, I'm mostly renumbering networks
containing "clients" - networks which rarely need incoming
connections.

> Or do you only do this with MP-TCP / QUIC or only mosh style applications=
 with a built in session layer?
> I presume you have a routed network with multiple routers and links as we=
ll?

Boring topologies mostly - two routers to provide first-hop
redundancy, two uplinks.
And - after I've done quite a bit of renumbering both dual-stack and
single-stack segments - IPv4 renumbering is much, much worse.
Sometimes you have to flap switchports.

>Ole, not sarcastic at all. ;-)

>
>
> >
> > Actually it would be helpful  to define requirements/expectations. I re=
ad it as:
> > R1: [MUST HAVE] after the renumbering host is able to open new connecti=
ons
> > R2: [NICE TO HAVE] old connections survive the renumbering.
> >
> > IMHO we shall at least enumerate the most common scenarios where R1 is
> > not happening and look what can be done here.
> > If we have a scenario when hosts end up with totally broken connectivit=
y we can:
> > 1) say 'oh just don't do that' - however before we do this (=3D=3D prod=
uce
> > some BCPs) it's worth analysing if it's feasible and, more
> > importantly:
> >  --- is the party affected by the issue is the same party which is
> > supposed to follow the BCP?
> >  --- are we talking about 'fix all hosts'? (when did we deal last
> > time with the scenario 'a machine re-authenticated via 802.1x
> > successfully, changed the VLAN but kept the old IPv6 prefix'?
> > 2) See if there is a way to mitigate at least part of the problem by
> > making the protocol more robust (isn't all DNA work is actually in the
> > same problem space?)
> >
> >> IPv6 does nothing to help with this, well, assuming a network hiding b=
ehind NAT, it makes it harder.
> >> Apart from "does not work", what more can the IETF say or do here?
> >
> > Try to make the Internet work better, maybe? :)
> >
> >>> On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:43, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 20:59 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:18, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wro=
te:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I thought about this in the exact context of the scenario of this dra=
ft. Although the design of the broadband deployment I worked on always plan=
ned to give out stable prefixes, I worked through this scenario and realise=
d that so many complex issues disappear if you provide stable prefixes.
> >>>
> >>> Fundamentally, if an ISP is selling an always on link to the same loc=
ation, then the addressing should be as permanent as the link delivery loca=
tion is.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If you're an ISP today, and using DHCPv6-PD to hand out IPv6 prefixes=
, what are the possible scenarios if you don't try hard to keep the prefixe=
s stable?
> >>>
> >>> Why don't you want to try hard? Not trying hard gives customers a bad=
 experience. They're paying you to try hard to give them the best suitable =
service you can give them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - You could be running a closed environment where all customers are f=
orced to use your CPE, in which case you can make sure that your CPE has va=
rious   hacks added to try to cope with prefix instability and avoid custom=
er hosts experiencing connectivity issues when prefixes change. Maybe you c=
an make this work well enough, and advanced customers who don't want to use=
 your CPE are just out of luck.
> >>>
> >>> - If you're in an environment where customers can chose their own CPE=
, then it seems almost guaranteed that there will be connectivity problems =
when the prefix changes, because many CPE implementations don't handle this=
 situation at all. So you're then relying on hosts falling back seamlessly =
to IPv4, in order to continue to have connectivity. In which case, I'd wond=
er why you're bothering to provide an IPv6 service in the first place.
> >>>
> >>> See what I said about selling an always on service to a fixed locatio=
n, and the addressing having the same amount of stability as the service an=
d link itself.
> >>>
> >>> The reason this problem really exists is that ISPs have fundamentally=
 continued to treat residential, always on broadband customers although the=
y were still dial up customers. Nothing has changed - per BRAS (NAS) IP add=
ress pools, pool route aggregation at the router, customer gets a single IP=
v4 address when they attach, that can change each time they attach. PPPoE i=
s making Ethernet connectivity resemble dial up connectivity.
> >>>
> >>> Now this dial up model is trying to be applied to semi-permanent IPv6=
 services, where it's even less applicable now that customers get their own=
 routed address space on a semi-permanent link.
> >>>
> >>> Treat all customers as routed subnet SOHO customers, so they get the =
same prefix regardless of which BRAS they attach to. Move the route aggrega=
tion boundary to a higher level to e.g. a cluster of BRASes, or a region.
> >>>
> >>> Use an IPv6 address provisioning model that suites and matches the se=
rvice they're paying for, not a nearly 30 year old dial up model.
> >>>
> >>> If your customers can BYO their CPE, then stable prefixes are the onl=
y choice.
> >>>
> >>> See slide 6.
> >>>
> >>> Residential IPv6 CPE - What Not to Do and Other Observations
> >>> https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/markzzzsmith/residential-ipv6-cpe-w=
hat-not-to-do-and-other-observations
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I do think this is an important problem that needs to be solved, for =
this context and the others mentioned in the draft.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> v6ops mailing list
> >> v6ops@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
>


--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:55:11 +1100
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 12:22 PM Brian E Carpenter
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually it would be helpful  to define requirements/expectations. I read it as:
> > R1: [MUST HAVE] after the renumbering host is able to open new connections
>
> How long after? Milliseconds, seconds, or minutes? It makes a lot of difference to the solution.

As soon as the host gets the new address configured.
If the address is assigned to the host interface and applications can
use that address to send packets - then those packets (and return
traffic) should  not be dropped by the network unless it's an explicit
(e.g. security) policy.

> > R2: [NICE TO HAVE] old connections survive the renumbering.
>
> I believe that when the operators refused to consider SHIM6 ten years ago, they were telling us that they really, truly do not care about that. So this becomes an application layer robustness issue.

Actually I kind of agree. I mean - there are many reasons why a
connection might get stuck/interrupted.
Devices can fail, can be rebooted etc. It would be nice if
applications could take care of this (and some of them do..)
In 'home CPE, DHCP-PD' case we are talking about renumbering happening
as a result of a CPE reboot/failure. So connections would suffer
anyway. Other flash renumbering cases are smth which is not happening
to the network on regular basis - so (IMHO) it's OK for it to be
slightly intrusive.
>
>     Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:56:57 +1100
Message-ID: <CAFU7BAS5r1XXADCmsuUicy16R7tL_B1AUDuqQfgv0uoVNOwveg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Cc: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>,  "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> At high level, it makes sense to require to allow simultaneous DHCP and
> SLAAC usage on a same subnet; a private email suggests the same.
> With that, Android and Windows would live ok side-by-side on same subnet.

I'm still not sure I understand why you need DHCP for Windows...Unless
you got that Windows in an antique shop...;)
I have plenty of Windows machines in the network (in an IPv6-only one as we=
ll).

> Further, thinking about how to implement the req, one would wonder
> whether the prefix in PIO with A flag set in an RA with M set, would be
> the same as the prefix used by the DHCP Server to form and deliver
> addresses?

> (if yes, I think that is difficult to achieve: (1) difficult to put same
> prefix in the software implementing RA sending, and in the DHCP server
> connfig files

Could you elaborate on this one? How is "putting the prefix in the
software implementing RA sending" different from "configuring a prefix
on a router interface"?
It's like saying 'difficult to configure the same IPv4 or IPv6 prefix
on the router interface and on DHCP server'

>and (2) difficult to make sure the Server does not form an
> address for a Client, address that a Host has already formed in the same
> prefix).

That's could be done to the some degree of confidence - if the pool is
using the first addresses in the prefix (let's say, the highest 50
bits if the interface ID set to 0) then
it's rather unlikely that such interface ID would be generated by SLAAC.
However that's a good point, thanks for another item in my collection
of 'why I don't need DHCPv6' reasons ;))

> (because of that reason, I think that trying to implement that
> requirement would lead to designating a prefix for SLAAC and another
> prefix for DHCP; that may sound a little bit as a waste).

I'm sure operating such a network will be...eh...entertaining...

> >> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> =EF=BB=BF On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu
> >> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three RAs
> >>>  changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and
> >>> A(utonomous) flags.
> >>>
> >>> Packet dumps available upon request.
> >>
> >> That=E2=80=99s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit but no=
t
> >> turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at the
> >> same time.
> >>
> >> Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it=E2=80=99s not too
> >> surprising that implementations get this wrong.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
> >>  v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



--=20
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:26:15 +1100
Message-ID: <CAFU7BASR5ODRmu-FUK_BREzXEfphN=t2mvmrXt4iXGFP-28sNQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
Cc: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/yTlwKRU-gf8iAYPFXmPS3Ufbq4Y>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:35 PM Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wro=
te:
> Yes, same prefix can be specified in DHCPv6 server and router RA PIO. If =
ever a conflict between the IPv6 addresses at a host, then the host could u=
se DAD to resolve the conflict (and recycle the SLAAC derived address). Sta=
ndard machinery.

Well, I guess the more tricky case is 'a host got an address from
DHCP, DAD is failing because another host already assigned the same IP
(manually or via SLAAC)'. What's next (besides sending DECLINE back to
the server)?
Split-brain condition in address assignments is hard. The more I read
this thread the less I see the point of having DHCPv6 (for address
assignment) when we have SLAAC.

Oh...I think I'm breaking the promise I made to myself ("never get
involved into SLAAC vs DHCP discussion ever') again...;))


> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 2:32 PM
> To: Rajiv Asati <rajiva@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
>
>
>
>     Le 29/10/2019 =C3=A0 13:38, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) a =C3=A9crit :
>     >
>     > Indeed. CPE router should allow keeping both M and A flags, to allo=
w
>     > simultaneous usage of DHCPv6 and SLAAC by the hosts.
>
>     At high level, it makes sense to require to allow simultaneous DHCP a=
nd
>     SLAAC usage on a same subnet; a private email suggests the same.
>     With that, Android and Windows would live ok side-by-side on same sub=
net.
>
>     Further, thinking about how to implement the req, one would wonder
>     whether the prefix in PIO with A flag set in an RA with M set, would =
be
>     the same as the prefix used by the DHCP Server to form and deliver
>     addresses?
>
>     (if yes, I think that is difficult to achieve: (1) difficult to put s=
ame
>     prefix in the software implementing RA sending, and in the DHCP serve=
r
>     connfig files and (2) difficult to make sure the Server does not form=
 an
>     address for a Client, address that a Host has already formed in the s=
ame
>     prefix).
>
>     (because of that reason, I think that trying to implement that
>     requirement would lead to designating a prefix for SLAAC and another
>     prefix for DHCP; that may sound a little bit as a waste).
>
>     Alex
>
>     >
>     > About time to update RFC7084 -
>     > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7084#section-4.3
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Cheers, Rajiv
>     >
>     >
>     >> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>  On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu
>     >> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>     >> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >>> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three RAs
>     >>>  changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and
>     >>> A(utonomous) flags.
>     >>>
>     >>> Packet dumps available upon request.
>     >>
>     >> That=E2=80=99s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit bu=
t not
>     >> turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at the
>     >> same time.
>     >>
>     >> Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it=E2=80=99s not t=
oo
>     >> surprising that implementations get this wrong.
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
>     >>  v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



--=20
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:37:57 +0100
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/Mmfn919UmYOhK5r24xfi_TntNDQ>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> > For IPv4 + NAT, if you flash renumber the upstream address then existing
> > connections will be stuck.
> 
> Not exactly They do fairly quickly get sent TCP RSTs in most cases.

That's not my experience. I hardly ever see a CPE generate a RST when a flow
doesn't exist. 

> OTOH, leaving the connection hung until it times out at the
> application or host TCP stack level creates huge delays in service
> restoration.

This is exactly what happens today in many cases. Of course, where developers
get annoyed by this behaviour, they implement shorter timeout at the 
application level. I.e., a typical webbrowser doesn't wait for the host to
report an error on a TCP connection.

> Because the IPv4 host fairly quickly receives an RST packet when
> the outbound packet hits a non-existent state table entry or a
> state table entry marked as dead.

My experience is different. In any case, if we want the CPE to send a RST
when it upstream prefix changes, then of course that can be coded as well.
I very much doubt that we really want to go there. Changing the host
would be better.

> Unless the CPE knows to send out an RA with a preferred lifetime
> of 0 for the now deprecated prefix, then you are mistaken in the
> actual systemic behavior.

The whole point of this discussion is to write a draft that requires the CPE
to do so. Probably with a companion of recommended host changes.


From nobody Wed Oct 30 03:46:29 2019
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 30, 2019, at 6:38 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> w=
rote:
>=20
>>> For IPv4 + NAT, if you flash renumber the upstream address then existing=

>>> connections will be stuck.
>> Not exactly They do fairly quickly get sent TCP RSTs in most cases.
>=20
> That's not my experience. I hardly ever see a CPE generate a RST when a fl=
ow
> doesn't exist

To be clear, the issue is that in order for a TCP RST to be sent, the TCP me=
ssage has to be delivered to the endpoint in the first place.   The CPE isn=E2=
=80=99t going to randomly send TCP RSTs to flows that don=E2=80=99t terminat=
e on it.   That is, it is not going to watch TCP traffic through it, notice t=
hat the source address on a particular message is not on the prefix it is cu=
rrently advertising, and then construct a TCP RST to break that connection.

So in practice, if a renumbering has happened in this way, what is going to h=
appen is that that TCP connection is going to time out for ninety seconds.

> This is exactly what happens today in many cases. Of course, where develop=
ers
> get annoyed by this behaviour, they implement shorter timeout at the=20
> application level. I.e., a typical webbrowser doesn't wait for the host to=

> report an error on a TCP connection.

This should not be happening often enough that application developers are ad=
ding shorter timeouts to their code.  A CPE reboot is an exceptional event, a=
nd a deliberate renumbering by the ISP ought to be as well.   If they are do=
ing that, I suspect it=E2=80=99s independent of the renumbering problem.

It would not surprise me if there are CPEs that behave badly when the ISP re=
numbering, and ISPs that behave badly when a prefix that is still valid is, f=
rom their perspective, no longer on offer. We ought to characterize that pro=
blem and propose solutions to this.   By =E2=80=9Ccharacterize,=E2=80=9D I m=
ean look at what actual CPEs do, not theorize, although I think theorizing i=
sn=E2=80=99t bad either.=20=


From nobody Wed Oct 30 03:55:26 2019
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Cc: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 12:26 AM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> What's next (besides sending DECLINE back to the server)?

That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s next.  This is exactly the right thing to do. =
  Having sent the decline, you would then do another solicit, and unless the=
 DHCP server is broken, you=E2=80=99d get a new address.

Isn=E2=80=99t it also the case that there are addresses that will never be g=
enerated by SLAAC?   If so, the DHCP server could allocate addresses that fi=
t that profile and we wouldn=E2=80=99t see this issue in the first place.


From nobody Wed Oct 30 04:01:52 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>>>> For IPv4 + NAT, if you flash renumber the upstream address then =
existing
>>>> connections will be stuck.
>>> Not exactly They do fairly quickly get sent TCP RSTs in most cases.
>>=20
>> That's not my experience. I hardly ever see a CPE generate a RST when =
a flow
>> doesn't exist
>=20
> To be clear, the issue is that in order for a TCP RST to be sent, the =
TCP message has to be delivered to the endpoint in the first place.   =
The CPE isn=E2=80=99t going to randomly send TCP RSTs to flows that =
don=E2=80=99t terminate on it.   That is, it is not going to watch TCP =
traffic through it, notice that the source address on a particular =
message is not on the prefix it is currently advertising, and then =
construct a TCP RST to break that connection.
>=20
> So in practice, if a renumbering has happened in this way, what is =
going to happen is that that TCP connection is going to time out for =
ninety seconds.

What a CPE does do, is to send an ICMP destination unreachable (5 - =
Source address failed ingress/egress policy) as the source address would =
violate the unicast RPC check. RFC7084, L-14.

>> This is exactly what happens today in many cases. Of course, where =
developers
>> get annoyed by this behaviour, they implement shorter timeout at the=20=

>> application level. I.e., a typical webbrowser doesn't wait for the =
host to
>> report an error on a TCP connection.
>=20
> This should not be happening often enough that application developers =
are adding shorter timeouts to their code.  A CPE reboot is an =
exceptional event, and a deliberate renumbering by the ISP ought to be =
as well.   If they are doing that, I suspect it=E2=80=99s independent of =
the renumbering problem.
>=20
> It would not surprise me if there are CPEs that behave badly when the =
ISP renumbering, and ISPs that behave badly when a prefix that is still =
valid is, from their perspective, no longer on offer. We ought to =
characterize that problem and propose solutions to this.   By =
=E2=80=9Ccharacterize,=E2=80=9D I mean look at what actual CPEs do, not =
theorize, although I think theorizing isn=E2=80=99t bad either.=20


You can generalise the renumbering problem to a multi-prefix =
multi-homing problem. Whenever a host has multiple addresses the =
application must continuously evaluate all possible paths and react to =
path failures. An invalidated prefix is just a reachability problem =
close to the host, and theoretically no different than a path failure =
multiple hops away.

In the case when a requesting router loses a prefix, it can of course =
signal that to the hosts as proposed in Fernando's draft. But that =
doesn't solve the general problem, and I'm skeptical to using addressing =
as a reachability signal. E.g. if the CPE's upstream link flaps, is that =
enough to trigger deprecation of the prefix? Of course it shouldn't.

Ole=


From nobody Wed Oct 30 04:19:29 2019
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>=20
> What a CPE does do, is to send an ICMP destination unreachable (5 - Source=
 address failed ingress/egress policy) as the source address would violate t=
he unicast RPC check. RFC7084, L-14.

Does this actually happen in practice, though?

It=E2=80=99s not actually clear to me how L-13 would be implemented.   Is a f=
ailure to provide a prefix that=E2=80=99s been requested an indication that t=
he prefix is no longer valid, or simply that it isn=E2=80=99t renewed?   Sho=
uld the CPE in this case stop using it?   What does =E2=80=9Creplaced by=E2=80=
=9D actually mean?

=46rom the perspective of DHCP PD, it would be valid for the CPE to continue=
 using the prefix until it expires.   That might very well not be the right t=
hing to do, but there is a lack of clarity here in the specification, and I a=
m wondering how router vendors have interpreted this in practice.


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Ole Troan wrote on 30/10/2019 11:01:
> What a CPE does do, is to send an ICMP destination unreachable (5 -
> Source address failed ingress/egress policy) as the source address
> would violate the unicast RPC check. RFC7084, L-14.
what many, if not most, CPEs do is drop the flow on the ground and move 
on with life.

Nick


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Hi Ted,

Yes we have a couple of test cases for IPv6 Ready CE Router Logo that
confirms this behavior.  One focuses on "Prefix Change" or what your
calling Flash renumber.  I will note this is a common failure the first
time devices fail.

Regards,
Tim

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:26 AM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:

> Ole Troan wrote on 30/10/2019 11:01:
> > What a CPE does do, is to send an ICMP destination unreachable (5 -
> > Source address failed ingress/egress policy) as the source address
> > would violate the unicast RPC check. RFC7084, L-14.
> what many, if not most, CPEs do is drop the flow on the ground and move
> on with life.
>
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ted,<div><br></div><div>Yes we have a couple of test ca=
ses for IPv6 Ready CE Router Logo that confirms this behavior.=C2=A0 One fo=
cuses on &quot;Prefix Change&quot; or what your calling Flash renumber.=C2=
=A0 I will note this is a common failure the first time devices fail.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Tim</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:2=
6 AM Nick Hilliard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nick@foobar.org">nick@foobar.org</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Ol=
e Troan wrote on 30/10/2019 11:01:<br>
&gt; What a CPE does do, is to send an ICMP destination unreachable (5 -<br=
>
&gt; Source address failed ingress/egress policy) as the source address<br>
&gt; would violate the unicast RPC check. RFC7084, L-14.<br>
what many, if not most, CPEs do is drop the flow on the ground and move <br=
>
on with life.<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 08:30, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu> wrote:
> Yes we have a couple of test cases for IPv6 Ready CE Router Logo that conf=
irms this behavior.  One focuses on "Prefix Change" or what your calling Fla=
sh renumber.  I will note this is a common failure the first time devices fa=
il.

Thanks for the info!  Which behavior do you mean?  There=E2=80=99s the handl=
ing of pd, and then there=E2=80=99s the icmp response.=20=


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From: Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:40:38 -0400
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hi Ted,

We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.

~Tim

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:33 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 08:30, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu> wrote:
> > Yes we have a couple of test cases for IPv6 Ready CE Router Logo that
> confirms this behavior.  One focuses on "Prefix Change" or what your
> calling Flash renumber.  I will note this is a common failure the first
> time devices fail.
>
> Thanks for the info!  Which behavior do you mean?  There=E2=80=99s the ha=
ndling of
> pd, and then there=E2=80=99s the icmp response.

--000000000000e0e4330596200a85
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ted,<div><br></div><div>We check both, the handling of =
the IA_PD and the error message.</div><div><br></div><div>~Tim</div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed,=
 Oct 30, 2019 at 8:33 AM Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com">=
mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">On Oct 30, 2019, at 08:30, Timothy Winters &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:twinters@iol.unh.edu" target=3D"_blank">twinters@iol.unh.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt; Yes we have a couple of test cases for IPv6 Ready CE Router Logo that =
confirms this behavior.=C2=A0 One focuses on &quot;Prefix Change&quot; or w=
hat your calling Flash renumber.=C2=A0 I will note this is a common failure=
 the first time devices fail.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the info!=C2=A0 Which behavior do you mean?=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99=
s the handling of pd, and then there=E2=80=99s the icmp response. </blockqu=
ote></div>

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu> =
wrote:
> We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.

And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE asks for a prefix delegation =
and doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it previously had, it deprecates it =
as described in L-14?  When this deprecation happens, what ways are =
being tested for it to happen?

E.g., is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA =
Prefix option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing =
the same prefix, with a status code encapsulated in it?   What status =
code?   Or is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix?  =
 Or is it doing both?


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:twinters@iol.unh.edu" =
class=3D"">twinters@iol.unh.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">We check both, the handling of the =
IA_PD and the error message.</div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE =
asks for a prefix delegation and doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it =
previously had, it deprecates it as described in L-14? &nbsp;When this =
deprecation happens, what ways are being tested for it to =
happen?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">E.g., =
is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA Prefix =
option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing the same =
prefix, with a status code encapsulated in it? &nbsp; What status code? =
&nbsp; Or is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix? =
&nbsp; Or is it doing both?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Li HUANG <bleuoisou@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:02:15 +0800
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To: Dmytro Shytyi <ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>
Cc: v6ops <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Implementation of DANIR for IoT Router - DHCPv6-PD and ND
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20:59.hk S8 Oct. 30 2019


Dear Dmytro,

All using clients are windows, would it be mounted in linux to modify this
at webex remote from your computer at a payable way?


Sincerely yours
Li HUANG

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 05:16 Dmytro Shytyi <ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net> wrote:

> Hello Li,
>
> In the implementation it is possible to change the DUID. You need to
> modify the linux kernel module code and recompile it.
> ______________
> *Dmytro SHYTYI*
>
> ---- On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:04:29 +0200 *Li HUANG <bleuoisou@gmail.com
> <bleuoisou@gmail.com>>* wrote ----
>
> Oct. 19 2019  21:00.hk w10p m800 Sg|Rv
>
>
> Thank you Dmytro and your group for sharing document on the specific
> dhcpv6 related topics .  You are welcome to share the dialog as well.
>
> Hopefully Linux/Uniz further  OS checking around  would be helped that
> from Dhcpv6DUID modifying unable remained to be the subnet concerning at
> your convenience . Which was online arrow getting to you ...
>
>
> Sincerely
> BleuOisou@gmail.com
> Li HUANG
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 20:30 Dmytro Shytyi <dmytro@shytyi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Li,
>
> Don't you mind if we include in our disscussion the IETF v6ops working
> group?
> In case you will not respond we will accept it as a permission to share
> our disscussion with IETF Working group.
> Thanks.
>
>
> Bien cordialement,
> *Dmytro SHYTYI*
>
>
> ---- On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:46 +0200 *Alexandre Petrescu
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>* wrote ----
>
> Li,
>
> Below you will find are some answers from Dmytro.
>
> I suggest we discuss this publicly on the v6ops WG email list, because
> it is on that list that others have responded (not on DHC WG email list).
>
>
> 1#
> Router - is a node, that performs forwarding. Router node is not a
> final destination of forwarded packets.
>
> Diagram :
> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router
> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)
>
> && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac
>
> [Dmytro] In the implementation DHVPvyDUID type field is set to "1" that
> meanse that DUID based on the link-layer Address Plus Time is used.
>
> example from the DANIR KD6:
>
>     dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_type =3D htons(1);
>
>     dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.hw_type =3D htons(1);
>
>     //DUID time convert kernel vertsion to compatible option value
>
>     ver =3D utsname()->version;
>
>     sscanf(ver, "%*s %*s %*s %*s %s %d %d:%d:%d %*s %d",ktime_month,
> &dh6_ktime.tm_mday, &dh6_ktime.tm_hour, &dh6_ktime.tm_min,
> &dh6_ktime.tm_sec, &dh6_ktime.tm_year);
>
>     dh6_ktime.tm_mon=3DGetMon(ktime_month);
>
>     //pr_info( "EP KTIME: %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d", dh6_ktime.tm_mon,
> dh6_ktime.tm_mday, dh6_ktime.tm_hour, dh6_ktime.tm_min,
> dh6_ktime.tm_sec, dh6_ktime.tm_year);
>
>     kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 =3D
> convertTimeDateToSeconds(dh6_ktime);
>
>     duid_time=3Dhtonl( kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 & 0xffffffff=
);
>
>     memcpy
> (&(dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_time),&duid_time,sizeof(duid_time));
>
>     memcpy (dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.my_hw_addr, d->dev->dev_addr, 48);
>
> 2#
> DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when
> example 2002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued.
>
> &&
> The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs
> that are further used by the stateless autoconfiguration mechanism
> (SLAAC)
>
> [Dmytro] RFC 4862 specifies the Router Advertisement processing process.
>
> 3#
> Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally
> available and globally unique.
>
> Diagram :
> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router
> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)
>
> - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?
> - which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ?
> - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the same as the IPv4 exactly
> working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when the vista replaced its
> motherboard and having both new and initial eth.mac shown both?
> - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular interface of
> the IoT
> Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it reaches the element of
> the access network which connects to the user equipment (UEs) -
> eNodeB station." likes there must be some wireless "USB.sgw.isp"
> host or , Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switch
> showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well?
> That would cause the pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map
> always via as if owning speed lower much than the wireless does have .
>
> [Dmytro] GUA is IPv6 global unique address.
>
> 4#
> your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BIOS works ?
>
> [Dmytro] This is linux kernel module. Linux could be ran in the
> virtualbox in the windows environment.
>
> 5#
> "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to
> satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure. To reach the
> PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/
> IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel. The
> corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; when
> the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to avoid this
> situation it is required to put the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6
> Solicit equal to 255."
>
> - hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the
> SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed ---> no ipv6 get to switch
> then Rv after it ?
>
>
> The packet will be discarded when Hop Limit will reach 0. When Hop Limit
> > 0 packet will not be discarded.
>
>
> Dmytro and Alex
>
>
> Le 04/10/2019 =C3=A0 16:16, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit :
> > Oct. 04 2019  22:12.hk <http://12.hk> w10p m800 Sg|Rv
> > Attn:
> >
> > Authors' Addresses
> >
> > Dmytro Shytyi
> > SFR
> > Paris area , Ile-de-France
> > France
> >
> > Email:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net <mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>
> > URI:http://dmytro.shytyi.net
> >
> >
> > Internet-DraDHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Rou March 2019
> >
> >
> > Alexandre Petrescu
> > CEA, LIST
> > CEA Saclay
> > Gif-sur-Yvette , Ile-de-France 91190
> > France
> >
> > Phone: +33169089223
> > Email:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr <mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr>
> >
> >
> > Good Day Alex and Dmytro,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Do read through draft and thank you for your sharing .
> >
> > Some here could have not understood them well or clear , please help in
> > details off:
> >
> >
> > 1#
> > Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.  Router node is not a
> >    final destination of forwarded packets.
> >
> > Diagram :
> > ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router
> > (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)
> >
> > && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac
> >
> >
> >
> > 2#
> > DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when
> > example 2002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued.
> >
> > &&
> > The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs
> >    that are further used by the stateless autoconfiguration mechanism
> >    (SLAAC)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3#
> > Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally
> >    available and globally unique.
> >
> > Diagram :
> > ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router
> > (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac)
> >
> >            - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?
> >            - which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ?
> >            - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the same as the IPv4 exactly
> > working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when the vista replaced its
> > motherboard and having both new and initial eth.mac shown both?
> >            - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular interface of
> > the IoT
> >    Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it reaches the element of
> >    the access network which connects to the user equipment (UEs) -
> >    eNodeB station."    likes there must be some wireless "USB.sgw.isp"
> > host or ,  Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switch
> > showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well?
> > That would cause the pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map
> > always via as if owning speed lower much than the wireless does have .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4#
> > your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BIOS works ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 5#
> > "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to
> >    satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure.  To reach the
> >    PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/
> >    IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.  The
> >    corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; when
> >    the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to avoid this
> >    situation it is required to put the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6
> >    Solicit equal to 255."
> >
> >                  - hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the
> > SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed ---> no ipv6 get to switch
> > then Rv after it ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 6#
> > "It is possible to use IPv6-over-PPP protocol [RFC1661], with LCP,
> >    between the ARM and the modem."
> >
> >                   "ARM has added a wealth of wireless technologies to
> > its arsenal, but has no immediate plans to design a modem for mobile or
> > Internet of Things devices.
> > The company offers CPU and GPU designs that are widely used in
> > smartphones and tablets. A missing piece is a cellular modem that ARM
> > customers could license and put in mobile devices."
> >
> >
> >               - My modem is Fibre Huawai wire model, Rv, Sg all
> > wirecable devices.
> >
> >
> > 7#
> > Could not have been able to select one who would help Modify Dhcpv6DUID
> > completed , sent email to postmaster@microsoft.com
> > <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com> none replying .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely
> > bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:27 AM Alexandre Petrescu
> > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Li,
> >
> > IETF is not police of protocols: IETF can not force organisations to
> > implement protocols or to fix bugs.  But we can discuss about protocols
> > at IETF.
> >
> > If Microsoft Windows does not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links
> > (like on cellular), then I have two things to say.
> >
> > One thing is to say that Microsoft programmers should not worry.  They
> > are not the only ones who do not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links.
> > There is also Qualcomm who refuses to.  It may, or it may not be a
> > problem.  But it is not only Microsoft.  An it is a good topic to
> > work on.
> >
> > The other thing is to say that it is possible to run a linux virtual
> > machine on a Microsoft Windows real machine.  In that linux machine,
> > one
> > can run DHCPv6-PD, on the wireless interface of the real Microsoft
> > Windows machine.  We propose open source to achieve this.  It is
> > available at
> >
> https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-kernel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-impleme=
ntation/
> >
> > (we have tried to upload it to github, but we hit a 2Gb upload limit;
> > this limit is a thing to complain to github, together with its lack of
> > IPv6 access; and github is now a Microsoft organisation :-)
> >
> > Alex and Dmytro
> >
> >
> > Le 20/09/2019 =C3=A0 01:55, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit :
> > > 08:47.hk <http://47.hk> <http://47.hk> S8 Sept 20 2019
> > >
> > >
> > > continued...,
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you rephrasing our diagonose for assuring the points.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wireless advance for dhcpv6 is imagined to experienced network maps.
> > > Which none wireless devices and plan isp at all decades.
> > >
> > >
> > > Microsoft who is handing rcf3315 according modified failures,  to
> > > changed board OEM machine, has reached wall to resolve it inside
> > microsoft.
> > >
> > >
> > > Looking for some where who would enter the juridical like
> > IEFT...etc.,
> > > in order to edge out what responsibility taken by who, if in such
> > > compromising rcf rules obeying  in conditions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely yours
> > > Li HUANG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 21:05 Alexandre Petrescu
> > > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >     Dear Li,
> > >
> > >     Thank you for the partial clarification you sent in private
> > about 'apt
> > >     windows'.  I understand that by 'apt windows' you mean 'apart
> > from
> > >     windows', which means 'with the exception of Windows'.
> > >
> > >     So, I think you mean that we in our draft have a preference
> > to run
> > >     DHCPv6-PD over the wireless interface, like with a phone.
> > You also
> > >     mean
> > >     that is ok.  You also mean that only Windows runs DHCPv6 on a
> > wired
> > >     interface; because Windows blocked DHCPv6 on wwan and wlan
> > interface.
> > >
> > >     I think you are saying that this Windows blocking DHCPv6-PD
> > on the
> > >     wireless interfaces caused you a lot of trouble, even after
> > system
> > >     updates.
> > >
> > >     Because of that I think you are asking that we make and
> > forward to
> > >     Microsoft, a request to make DHCPv6-PD on the wireless interface.
> > >
> > >     I may be wrong though.
> > >
> > >     I would like to ask you: do you know somebody at Microsoft
> > who cares
> > >     about DHCPv6?  Or should I write simply to
> > postmaster@microsoft.com <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>
> > >     <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com
> > <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>>
> > >     hoping they will direct the message to people in charge?
> > >
> > >     Alex
> > >
> > >     Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 09:45, Alexandre Petrescu a =C3=A9crit :
> > >      > Dear Li,
> > >      >
> > >      > Please help me understand:
> > >      >
> > >      > What do you mean by 'apt windows'?
> > >      >
> > >      > Alex
> > >      >
> > >      > Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 07:39, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit :
> > >      >> 09:39.hk <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk/> S8
> > Sept 17th 2019
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> Thank you dhcwg returning on this,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server sounds very like the
> > running
> > >      >> preferially to wireless, or phone networks instead of apt
> > >     windows that
> > >      >> blocked wwan, wlan services of it ...
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> To the kernel apart, OEM user would principle following
> > its offered
> > >      >> updates of system, in case dhcpv6 required update, how would
> > >     clients
> > >      >> obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 whilst OEM warranty
> > contract
> > >     to get
> > >      >> all none conflicts?
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> Microsoft is one putting on tracking, it must be forwarded to
> > >     them about.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> Let have your kind advises on it please .
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >> Sincerely yours
> > >      >> Li HUANG
> > >      >>
> > >      >> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:48 Li HUANG <bleuoisou@gmail.com
> > <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
> > >     <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>
> > >      >> <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     09:39.hk <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk>
> > S8 Sept 17th 2019
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     Thank you dhcwg returning on this,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server sounds very like
> > the running
> > >      >>     preferially to wireless, or phone networks instead of apt
> > >     windows
> > >      >>     that blocked wwan, wlan services of it ...
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     To the kernel apart, OEM user would principle
> > following its
> > >     offered
> > >      >>     updates of system, in case dhcpv6 required update,
> > how would
> > >     clients
> > >      >>     obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 whilst OEM warranty
> > >     contract to
> > >      >>     get all none conflicts?
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     Microsoft is one putting on tracking, it must be
> > forwarded
> > >     to them
> > >      >>     about.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     Let have your kind advises on it please .
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     Sincerely yours
> > >      >>     Li HUANG
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>     On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 00:18 Alexandre Petrescu
> > >      >>     <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
> > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>>
> > >      >>     wrote:
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Hello to participants in DHC WG,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         One might be interested in this kernel
> > implementation of
> > >      >>         DHCPv6-PD parts.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Yours,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Alex and Dmytro
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         -------- Message transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 --------
> > >      >>         Sujet :     Kernel implementation of DANIR for
> > IoT Router -
> > >      >>         DHCPv6-PD and ND
> > >      >>         Date :     Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:21:46 +0200
> > >      >>         De :     Alexandre Petrescu
> > >     <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>
> > >      >>         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
> > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>
> > >      >>         Pour : v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
> > >     <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>
> > >      >> <v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>
> > >      >>         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Hi,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         The kernel implementation of DANIR for IoT Router was
> > >     finally
> > >      >>         working a few weeks ago.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         It is an implementation of
> > draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-03.txt.
> > >      >>         This is the right thing to do, instead of
> > '64share' RFC7278.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         In this video one can see the kernel in the IoT
> > Router
> > >     issues a
> > >      >>         DHCPv6 PD request on its egress and obtains a /56; it
> > >     then makes
> > >      >>         several /64s out of it and subsequently sends RAs
> > with
> > >     these on
> > >      >>         the ingress interfaces.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         The DHCPv6 server is took off-the-shelf.  The PDP
> > part
> > >     is not
> > >      >>         present in the IoT Router, but we expect it to
> > work ok
> > >     on a ptp
> > >      >>         link on a cellular network to a smartphone.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         The video recorded the virtual machines output on the
> > >     IoT Router
> > >      >>         (featured below), the Client device behind it,
> > and the
> > >     DHCPv6-PD
> > >      >>         server.
> > >      >>
> > >      >> https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM
> > >      >>
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Yours,
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         Alexandre PETRESCU and Dmytro SHYTYI
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         PS: we will soon post the source code on github.
> > >      >>
> > >      >>         _______________________________________________
> > >      >>         dhcwg mailing list
> > >      >> dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
> > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>
> > >     <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>>
> > >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
> > >      >>
> > >      >
> > >      > _______________________________________________
> > >      > dhcwg mailing list
> > >      > dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>
> > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
> > >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
> > >
> > >     _______________________________________________
> > >     dhcwg mailing list
> > > dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
> > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">20:<a href=3D"http://59.hk">59.hk</a> S8 Oct. 30 2019<div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Dear =
Dmytro,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">All using client=
s are windows, would it be mounted in linux to modify this at webex remote =
from your computer at a payable way?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Sincerely yours</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Li HUANG</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 05:16 Dmytro Shytyi &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net">ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style=3D"font-family:Ve=
rdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Hello Li,<br></div><d=
iv><br>In the implementation it is possible to change the DUID. You need to=
 modify the linux kernel module code and recompile it.<br></div><div id=3D"=
m_2014101894975505333Zm-_Id_-Sgn"><div>______________<br><b>Dmytro SHYTYI</=
b></div></div><div><div><br></div><div id=3D"m_2014101894975505333Zm-_Id_-S=
gn1">---- On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:04:29 +0200 <b>Li HUANG &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:6px;margin:0px 0px 0px =
5px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Oct. 19 2019=C2=A0 21:<a href=3D"http://00.=
hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">00.hk</a> w10p m800 Sg|Rv<br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thank you Dmytro and your group for sha=
ring document on the specific dhcpv6 related topics .=C2=A0 You are welcome=
 to share the dialog as well. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Hopefully Linux=
/Uniz further=C2=A0 OS checking around=C2=A0 would be helped that from Dhcp=
v6DUID modifying unable remained to be the subnet concerning at your conven=
ience . Which was online arrow getting to you ...<br></div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>Sincerely<br></div><div><a href=3D"mailto:BleuOisou@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">BleuOisou@gmail.com</a><br></di=
v><div>Li HUANG<br></div></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left:1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1.0ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:10.0pt"><div><blockquote style=3D"border-left:1.0px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:6.0px;margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 5.0px"><div><di=
v><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 20:30 Dmytro Shytyi=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dmytro@shytyi.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr=
er">dmytro@shytyi.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div><br></div></div></div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left:1.0px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1.0ex"><div><u></u><br></div><div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10.0pt"><div>H=
ello Li,=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t you mind if we includ=
e in our disscussion the IETF v6ops working group?<br></div><div>In case yo=
u will not respond we will accept it as a permission to share our disscussi=
on with IETF Working group.=C2=A0<br></div><div>Thanks.<br></div><div><br><=
/div><div><div><s>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</s><br></div><div>Bi=
en cordialement,<br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:13px"><b>Dmytro SHY=
TYI</b></span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>---- =
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:46 +0200 <b>Alexandre Petrescu &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alex=
andre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div><div><br></div><bl=
ockquote style=3D"border-left:1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:6.0=
px;margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 5.0px"><div>Li, <br> <br>Below you will find ar=
e some answers from Dmytro. <br> <br>I suggest we discuss this publicly on =
the v6ops WG email list, because <br>it is on that list that others have re=
sponded (not on DHC WG email list). <br> <br> <br> 1# <br> Router - is a no=
de, that performs forwarding.  Router node is not a <br> final destination =
of forwarded packets. <br> <br> Diagram : <br> ISP---Switch (4 mac found : =
isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (=
wire, wireless , vpn mac) <br> <br> &amp;&amp; DHCPv6DUID failed to keep th=
e modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac <br> <br>[Dmytro] In the implementati=
on DHVPvyDUID type field is set to &quot;1&quot; that <br>meanse that DUID =
based on the link-layer Address Plus Time is used. <br> <br>example from th=
e DANIR KD6: <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my_client_id.=
duid_type =3D htons(1); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my=
_client_id.hw_type =3D htons(1); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0//DUID ti=
me convert kernel vertsion to compatible option value <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0ver =3D utsname()-&gt;version; <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0sscanf(ver, &quot;%*s %*s %*s %*s %s %d %d:%d:%d %*s %d&quot;,ktime_mont=
h, <br>&amp;dh6_ktime.tm_mday, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_hour, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_mi=
n, <br>&amp;dh6_ktime.tm_sec, &amp;dh6_ktime.tm_year); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0dh6_ktime.tm_mon=3DGetMon(ktime_month); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0//pr_info( &quot;EP KTIME: %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d&quot;, dh6_ktim=
e.tm_mon, <br>dh6_ktime.tm_mday, dh6_ktime.tm_hour, dh6_ktime.tm_min, <br>d=
h6_ktime.tm_sec, dh6_ktime.tm_year); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0kerne=
lCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 =3D <br>convertTimeDateToSeconds(dh6_ktime=
); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0duid_time=3Dhtonl( kernelCompilationTim=
eStartingFrom2000 &amp; 0xffffffff); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0memcp=
y <br>(&amp;(dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my_client_id.duid_time),&amp;duid_time,sizeof(=
duid_time)); <br> <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0memcpy (dhp.kd6_sol-&gt;my_cl=
ient_id.my_hw_addr, d-&gt;dev-&gt;dev_addr, 48); <br> <br> 2# <br> DHCP-PD =
only can be configured by a figure not IPv6 . Term of , when <br> example 2=
002:: input :: would make the app grey uncontinued. <br> <br> &amp;&amp; <b=
r> The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs <br> that are further u=
sed by the stateless autoconfiguration mechanism <br> (SLAAC) <br> <br>[Dmy=
tro] RFC 4862 specifies the Router Advertisement processing process. <br> <=
br> 3# <br> Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that is globally <b=
r> available and globally unique. <br> <br> Diagram : <br> ISP---Switch (4 =
mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br> (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac=
 )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac) <br> <br> - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac=
 ? <br> - which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ? <br> - Dhcpv6DUID using =
sub-prefix the same as the IPv4 exactly <br> working eth.mac , by ipconfig =
/all detected when the vista replaced its <br> motherboard and having both =
new and initial eth.mac shown both? <br> - &quot;After the DHCPv6 packet le=
aves the cellular interface of <br> the IoT <br> Requesting Router via wire=
less OFDMA link, it reaches the element of <br> the access network which co=
nnects to the user equipment (UEs) - <br> eNodeB station.&quot;    likes th=
ere must be some wireless &quot;USB.sgw.isp&quot; <br> host or ,  Dhcpv6 mu=
st be on Cellular host ? When one of 4 mac switch <br> showing Nokia , whic=
h sometimes modem connecting arp -a shown as well? <br> That would cause th=
e pretty much lost functions of wire.router.map <br> always via as if ownin=
g speed lower much than the wireless does have . <br> <br>[Dmytro] GUA is I=
Pv6 global unique address. <br> <br> 4# <br> your freely downloadable kerna=
l patch for Windows BIOS works ? <br> <br>[Dmytro] This is linux kernel mod=
ule. Linux could be ran in the <br>virtualbox in the windows environment. <=
br> <br> 5# <br> &quot;The Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 dat=
a MUST be 255 to <br> satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure=
.  To reach the <br> PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are encapsulated by=
 SGW into UDP/ <br> IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunne=
l.  The <br> corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit;=
 when <br> the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to avoid =
this <br> situation it is required to put the Hop Limit value of the DHCPv6=
 <br> Solicit equal to 255.&quot; <br> <br> - hop in switch default 64 decr=
eased to 48 then the <br> SGW would not work--&gt; no dhcpv6 completed ---&=
gt; no ipv6 get to switch <br> then Rv after it ? <br> <br> <br>The packet =
will be discarded when Hop Limit will reach 0. When Hop Limit <br> &gt; 0 p=
acket will not be discarded. <br> <br> <br>Dmytro and Alex <br> <br> <br>Le=
 04/10/2019 =C3=A0 16:16, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: <br>&gt; Oct. 04 201=
9=C2=A0 22:<a href=3D"http://12.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">12=
.hk</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://12.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">h=
ttp://12.hk</a>&gt; w10p m800 Sg|Rv <br>&gt; Attn: <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Author=
s&#39; Addresses <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Dmytro Shytyi <br>&gt;     SFR <br>&=
gt;     Paris area , Ile-de-France <br>&gt;     France <br>&gt; <br>&gt;   =
  Email:<a href=3D"mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ietf.dm=
ytro@shytyi.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ietf.dmytro@shytyi.ne=
t</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     URI:<a href=3D"http://dmytro.shytyi.net" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://dmytro.shytyi.net</a> <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; Internet-DraDHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Rou March 2=
019 <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;     CEA, LIS=
T <br>&gt;     CEA Saclay <br>&gt;     Gif-sur-Yvette , Ile-de-France   911=
90 <br>&gt;     France <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Phone: +33169089223 <br>&gt;  =
   Email:<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Alexandre.P=
etrescu@cea.fr</a>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Good Day Alex and Dmytro,=
 <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Do read through draft and tha=
nk you for your sharing . <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Some here could have not unders=
tood them well or clear , please help in <br>&gt; details off: <br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; 1# <br>&gt; Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.=C2=
=A0 Router node is not a <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0final destination of forwar=
ded packets. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Diagram : <br>&gt; ISP---Switch (4 mac found=
 : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br>&gt; (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---=
- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac) <br>&gt; <br>&gt; &amp;&amp; DHCPv6DUID fa=
iled to keep the modified DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; <br>&gt; 2# <br>&gt; DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not IP=
v6 . Term of , when <br>&gt; example 2002:: input :: would make the app gre=
y uncontinued. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; &amp;&amp; <br>&gt; The Router Avertisemen=
t Messages carry the GUNPs <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0that are further used by =
the stateless autoconfiguration mechanism <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0(SLAAC) <b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 3# <br>&gt; Global Unique Addres=
s (GUA) - is an address that is globally <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0available a=
nd globally unique. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Diagram : <br>&gt; ISP---Switch (4 ma=
c found : isp x2 , modem x1 , IANA x1)---- Router <br>&gt; (WAN1,2, LAN 3 m=
ac )---- PCs (wire, wireless , vpn mac) <br>&gt; <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ? <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- which GUA to be mentioned at the draft =
? <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dhcpv6DUID using sub=
-prefix the same as the IPv4 exactly <br>&gt; working eth.mac , by ipconfig=
 /all detected when the vista replaced its <br>&gt; motherboard and having =
both new and initial eth.mac shown both? <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- &quot;After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular interf=
ace of <br>&gt; the IoT <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0Requesting Router via wirele=
ss OFDMA link, it reaches the element of <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0the access =
network which connects to the user equipment (UEs) - <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0eNodeB station.&quot; =C2=A0 =C2=A0likes there must be some wireless &qu=
ot;USB.sgw.isp&quot; <br>&gt; host or , =C2=A0Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular ho=
st ? When one of 4 mac switch <br>&gt; showing Nokia , which sometimes mode=
m connecting arp -a shown as well? <br>&gt; That would cause the pretty muc=
h lost functions of wire.router.map <br>&gt; always via as if owning speed =
lower much than the wireless does have . <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; 4# <br>&gt; your freely downloadable kernal patch for Windows BI=
OS works ? <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 5# <br>&gt; &quot;T=
he Hop Limit of packets that contain the DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to <br>&gt=
;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0satisfy the properties of the cellular infrastructure.=C2=
=A0 To reach the <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets =
are encapsulated by SGW into UDP/ <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv4 packets; this=
 encapsulation is for the GTP-U tunnel.=C2=A0 The <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0co=
rresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases the Hop Limit; when <br>&gt; =
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is discarded; to avo=
id this <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation it is required to put the Hop Limi=
t value of the DHCPv6 <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0Solicit equal to 255.&quot; <b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0- hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the <br>&gt; SGW woul=
d not work--&gt; no dhcpv6 completed ---&gt; no ipv6 get to switch <br>&gt;=
 then Rv after it ? <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 6=
# <br>&gt; &quot;It is possible to use IPv6-over-PPP protocol [RFC1661], wi=
th LCP, <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0between the ARM and the modem.&quot; <br>&gt=
; <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
&quot;ARM has added a wealth of wireless technologies to <br>&gt; its arsen=
al, but has no immediate plans to design a modem for mobile or <br>&gt; Int=
ernet of Things devices. <br>&gt; The company offers CPU and GPU designs th=
at are widely used in <br>&gt; smartphones and tablets. A missing piece is =
a cellular modem that ARM <br>&gt; customers could license and put in mobil=
e devices.&quot; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - My modem is Fibre Huawai wire model, Rv, Sg all <br>=
&gt; wirecable devices. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; 7# <br>&gt; Could not ha=
ve been able to select one who would help Modify Dhcpv6DUID <br>&gt; comple=
ted , sent email to <a href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">postmaster@microsoft.com</a> <br>&gt; &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">postmaster@microsoft.com</a>&gt; none replying . <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sincerely <br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bleu=
oisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</=
a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Tue, Sep 2=
4, 2019 at 1:27 AM Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexan=
dre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petr=
escu@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote: <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Hi Li, <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     IETF is not=
 police of protocols: IETF can not force organisations to <br>&gt;     impl=
ement protocols or to fix bugs.=C2=A0 But we can discuss about protocols <b=
r>&gt;     at IETF. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     If Microsoft Windows does not imp=
lement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links <br>&gt;     (like on cellular), then I =
have two things to say. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     One thing is to say that Micr=
osoft programmers should not worry.=C2=A0 They <br>&gt;     are not the onl=
y ones who do not implement DHCPv6-PD on wireless links. <br>&gt;     There=
 is also Qualcomm who refuses to.=C2=A0 It may, or it may not be a <br>&gt;=
     problem.=C2=A0 But it is not only Microsoft.=C2=A0 An it is a good top=
ic to <br>&gt;     work on. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     The other thing is to say=
 that it is possible to run a linux virtual <br>&gt;     machine on a Micro=
soft Windows real machine.=C2=A0 In that linux machine, <br>&gt;     one <b=
r>&gt;     can run DHCPv6-PD, on the wireless interface of the real Microso=
ft <br>&gt;     Windows machine.=C2=A0 We propose open source to achieve th=
is.=C2=A0 It is <br>&gt;     available at <br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://dmytr=
o.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-kernel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-implementation/" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-ke=
rnel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-implementation/</a> <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     (we have t=
ried to upload it to github, but we hit a 2Gb upload limit; <br>&gt;     th=
is limit is a thing to complain to github, together with its lack of <br>&g=
t;     IPv6 access; and github is now a Microsoft organisation :-) <br>&gt;=
 <br>&gt;     Alex and Dmytro <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;     Le 20/09/2019 =
=C3=A0 01:55, Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: <br>&gt;      &gt; 08:<a href=3D=
"http://47.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">47.hk</a> &lt;<a href=
=3D"http://47.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://47.hk</a>&gt;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"http://47.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://4=
7.hk</a>&gt; S8 Sept 20 2019 <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;=
      &gt; continued..., <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt; Thank you rephrasing our diagonose for assuring the points. <br>&gt;=
      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Wireless advance for dhcpv=
6 is imagined to experienced network maps. <br>&gt;      &gt; Which none wi=
reless devices and plan isp at all decades. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Microsoft who is handing rcf3315 according modifi=
ed failures,=C2=A0 to <br>&gt;      &gt; changed board OEM machine, has rea=
ched wall to resolve it inside <br>&gt;     microsoft. <br>&gt;      &gt; <=
br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Looking for some where who would enter=
 the juridical like <br>&gt;     IEFT...etc., <br>&gt;      &gt; in order t=
o edge out what responsibility taken by who, if in such <br>&gt;      &gt; =
compromising rcf rules obeying=C2=A0 in conditions. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>=
&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; Sincerely yours <br>&g=
t;      &gt; Li HUANG <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &=
gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      =
&gt; On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 21:05 Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;      &gt; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">a=
lexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:a=
lexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre=
.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote: <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;     =
 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Li, <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you for the partial clarification you sent in privat=
e <br>&gt;     about &#39;apt <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows=
&#39;.=C2=A0 I understand that by &#39;apt windows&#39; you mean &#39;apart=
 <br>&gt;     from <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows&#39;, whic=
h means &#39;with the exception of Windows&#39;. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt=
;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, I think you mean that we in our draft ha=
ve a preference <br>&gt;     to run <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0D=
HCPv6-PD over the wireless interface, like with a phone. <br>&gt;     You a=
lso <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0that is ok.=C2=A0 You also mean that only Windows runs DHCPv6 on =
a <br>&gt;     wired <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interface; becau=
se Windows blocked DHCPv6 on wwan and wlan <br>&gt;     interface. <br>&gt;=
      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think you are saying tha=
t this Windows blocking DHCPv6-PD <br>&gt;     on the <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wireless interfaces caused you a lot of trouble, even afte=
r <br>&gt;     system <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0updates. <br>&g=
t;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Because of that I think =
you are asking that we make and <br>&gt;     forward to <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Microsoft, a request to make DHCPv6-PD on the wireless =
interface. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I may b=
e wrong though. <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I =
would like to ask you: do you know somebody at Microsoft <br>&gt;     who c=
ares <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about DHCPv6?=C2=A0 Or should I =
write simply to <br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">postmaster@microsoft.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer=
">postmaster@microsoft.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&l=
t;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">postmaster@microsoft.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
postmaster@microsoft.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
hoping they will direct the message to people in charge? <br>&gt;      &gt;=
 <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alex <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;    =
  &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 09:45, Alexandre Petrescu a =
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0: <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Dear Li, <br>=
&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &gt; Please help me understand: <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; What do you mean by &#39;a=
pt windows&#39;? <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>&gt;      =
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Alex <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &=
gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Le 18/09/2019 =C3=A0 07:39,=
 Li HUANG a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&g=
t; 09:<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">39.hk</=
a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http:/=
/39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">http://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk/" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">http://39.hk/</a>&gt;=C2=A0S8 <br>&gt;     Sept 17th 201=
9 <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Than=
k you dhcwg returning on this, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&=
gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =
IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server sounds very like the <br>&gt;     runnin=
g <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; preferially to wireless, =
or phone networks instead of apt <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wind=
ows that <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; blocked wwan, wlan=
 services of it ... <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt=
;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; To the kernel apart, OEM user would principle following <br=
>&gt;     its offered <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; updat=
es of system, in case dhcpv6 required update, how would <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clients <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;=
 obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 whilst OEM warranty <br>&gt;     contra=
ct <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to get <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; all none conflicts? <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;   =
   &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Microsoft is one putting on tracking, =
it must be forwarded to <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0them about. <=
br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Let hav=
e your kind advises on it please . <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &=
gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&g=
t; Sincerely yours <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Li HUANG=
 <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:48 Li HUANG &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@=
gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;=
      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &=
gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bl=
euoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuoisou@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bleuo=
isou@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote: <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 09:<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
39.hk</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
>http://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noreferrer">http://39.hk</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://39.hk" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://39.hk</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     S8 Sept 17th 201=
9 <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank you dhcwg returning on this, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server s=
ounds very like <br>&gt;     the running <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 preferially to wireless, or phone networ=
ks instead of apt <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0windows <br>&gt;   =
   &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that blocked wwan, =
wlan services of it ... <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To the kernel apart, OEM user would =
principle <br>&gt;     following its <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
offered <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
updates of system, in case dhcpv6 required update, <br>&gt;     how would <=
br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clients <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260 w=
hilst OEM warranty <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contract to <br>&g=
t;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 get all none c=
onflicts? <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&=
gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Microsoft is one putting on tracking, it must be <br=
>&gt;     forwarded <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to them <br>&gt; =
     &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 about. <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Let have your kind advises on it please . <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>=
&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sincerely yours <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Li HUANG <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&g=
t; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On Tu=
e, Sep 17, 2019, 00:18 Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.c=
om</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexa=
ndre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.pet=
rescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.pet=
rescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr=
er">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alex=
andre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 wrote: <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&g=
t; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hello to participants in DHC =
WG, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One m=
ight be interested in this kernel <br>&gt;     implementation of <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 DHCPv6-PD parts. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br=
>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yours, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt=
;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Alex and Dmytro <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <=
br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -------- Mes=
sage transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 -------- <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &g=
t;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sujet=C2=A0:=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kernel implementation of DANIR for <br>&gt;     IoT Router - <=
br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DHCPv6-PD and ND <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt=
;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Date=C2=A0:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:21:46 +0200 <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 De=C2=A0:=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexandre Petrescu <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ale=
xandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ale=
xandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Po=
ur=C2=A0: <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6o=
ps@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b=
r>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; =
<br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v=
6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6=
ops@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>=
&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The kernel implementation of DANIR for IoT R=
outer was <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0finally <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 wo=
rking a few weeks ago. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>=
&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 It is an implementation of <br>&gt;     draft-shytyi-v6ops-dan=
ir-03.txt. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is the right thing to do, instead of <br>&=
gt;     &#39;64share&#39; RFC7278. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &=
gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In this video one can see the kernel in the IoT <b=
r>&gt;     Router <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues a <br>&gt;  =
    &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 DHCPv6 PD request on its egress and obtains a /56; it <br>&gt;      =
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0then makes <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &=
gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 several /64s out of it a=
nd subsequently sends RAs <br>&gt;     with <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0these on <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the ingress interfaces. <br>&gt;      &gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&=
gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The DHCPv6 server is took of=
f-the-shelf.=C2=A0 The PDP <br>&gt;     part <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0is not <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 present in the IoT Router, but we expect =
it to <br>&gt;     work ok <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on a ptp <=
br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 link on a cellular network to a smartphone. <br>&gt;      &=
gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt=
;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The video recorded the vir=
tual machines output on the <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IoT Route=
r <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (featured below), the Client device behind it, <br>&gt; =
    and the <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DHCPv6-PD <br>&gt;      &=
gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 server. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM</a> <br>&gt; =
     &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yours, <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexandre PETRESCU and Dmytro SHYTYI <br>&gt=
;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PS: we will soon=
 post the source code on github. <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt=
;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________ <br>&=
gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 dhcwg mailing list <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
>dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@i=
etf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&=
gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dhcwg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg</a> <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &g=
t;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; _______________________________________________ <br>&gt=
;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; dhcwg mailing list <br>&gt;      &gt;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>=
&gt;     &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&g=
t;      &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/dhcwg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg</a> <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt;      &gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________ <br>&gt;      =
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dhcwg mailing list <br>&gt;      &gt; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dhcwg@ietf.org</a> <br>&gt;     &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;      &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg</a> <br>&gt;      &gt; <br>&gt; <br></d=
iv></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div></blockquot=
e></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote=
></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div><br></div></blockquote></div>

--0000000000003f56220596205866--


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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Implementation of DANIR for IoT Router - DHCPv6-PD and ND
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Do you mean you want to see a demo of linux VM with DANIR hosted on 
Windows, during the v6ops WG meeting relayed on a telco, that you will 
see as a remote (paying) participant?
(draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-04)

Alex

Le 30/10/2019 à 14:02, Li HUANG a écrit :
> 20:59.hk <http://59.hk> S8 Oct. 30 2019
> 
> 
> Dear Dmytro,
> 
> All using clients are windows, would it be mounted in linux to modify 
> this at webex remote from your computer at a payable way?
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours
> Li HUANG
> 
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 05:16 Dmytro Shytyi <ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net 
> <mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>> wrote:
> 
>     __
>     Hello Li,
> 
>     In the implementation it is possible to change the DUID. You need to
>     modify the linux kernel module code and recompile it.
>     ______________
>     *Dmytro SHYTYI*
> 
>     ---- On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:04:29 +0200 *Li HUANG
>     <bleuoisou@gmail.com <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>* wrote ----
> 
>         Oct. 19 2019  21:00.hk <http://00.hk> w10p m800 Sg|Rv
> 
> 
>         Thank you Dmytro and your group for sharing document on the
>         specific dhcpv6 related topics .  You are welcome to share the
>         dialog as well.
> 
>         Hopefully Linux/Uniz further  OS checking around  would be
>         helped that from Dhcpv6DUID modifying unable remained to be the
>         subnet concerning at your convenience . Which was online arrow
>         getting to you ...
> 
> 
>         Sincerely
>         BleuOisou@gmail.com <mailto:BleuOisou@gmail.com>
>         Li HUANG
> 
> 
>                 On Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 20:30 Dmytro Shytyi
>                 <dmytro@shytyi.net <mailto:dmytro@shytyi.net>> wrote:
> 
>                     __
>                     Hello Li,
> 
>                     Don't you mind if we include in our disscussion the
>                     IETF v6ops working group?
>                     In case you will not respond we will accept it as a
>                     permission to share our disscussion with IETF
>                     Working group.
>                     Thanks.
> 
> 
>                     Bien cordialement,
>                     *Dmytro SHYTYI*
> 
> 
>                     ---- On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:46 +0200 *Alexandre
>                     Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>* wrote ----
> 
>                         Li,
> 
>                         Below you will find are some answers from Dmytro.
> 
>                         I suggest we discuss this publicly on the v6ops
>                         WG email list, because
>                         it is on that list that others have responded
>                         (not on DHC WG email list).
> 
> 
>                         1#
>                         Router - is a node, that performs forwarding.
>                         Router node is not a
>                         final destination of forwarded packets.
> 
>                         Diagram :
>                         ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 ,
>                         IANA x1)---- Router
>                         (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless ,
>                         vpn mac)
> 
>                         && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified
>                         DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac
> 
>                         [Dmytro] In the implementation DHVPvyDUID type
>                         field is set to "1" that
>                         meanse that DUID based on the link-layer Address
>                         Plus Time is used.
> 
>                         example from the DANIR KD6:
> 
>                              dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_type =
>                         htons(1);
> 
>                              dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.hw_type = htons(1);
> 
>                              //DUID time convert kernel vertsion to
>                         compatible option value
> 
>                              ver = utsname()->version;
> 
>                              sscanf(ver, "%*s %*s %*s %*s %s %d %d:%d:%d
>                         %*s %d",ktime_month,
>                         &dh6_ktime.tm_mday, &dh6_ktime.tm_hour,
>                         &dh6_ktime.tm_min,
>                         &dh6_ktime.tm_sec, &dh6_ktime.tm_year);
> 
>                              dh6_ktime.tm_mon=GetMon(ktime_month);
> 
>                              //pr_info( "EP KTIME: %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d",
>                         dh6_ktime.tm_mon,
>                         dh6_ktime.tm_mday, dh6_ktime.tm_hour,
>                         dh6_ktime.tm_min,
>                         dh6_ktime.tm_sec, dh6_ktime.tm_year);
> 
>                              kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 =
>                         convertTimeDateToSeconds(dh6_ktime);
> 
>                              duid_time=htonl(
>                         kernelCompilationTimeStartingFrom2000 &
>                         0xffffffff);
> 
>                              memcpy
>                         (&(dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.duid_time),&duid_time,sizeof(duid_time));
> 
> 
>                              memcpy
>                         (dhp.kd6_sol->my_client_id.my_hw_addr,
>                         d->dev->dev_addr, 48);
> 
>                         2#
>                         DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure not
>                         IPv6 . Term of , when
>                         example 2002:: input :: would make the app grey
>                         uncontinued.
> 
>                         &&
>                         The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs
>                         that are further used by the stateless
>                         autoconfiguration mechanism
>                         (SLAAC)
> 
>                         [Dmytro] RFC 4862 specifies the Router
>                         Advertisement processing process.
> 
>                         3#
>                         Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address that
>                         is globally
>                         available and globally unique.
> 
>                         Diagram :
>                         ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1 ,
>                         IANA x1)---- Router
>                         (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless ,
>                         vpn mac)
> 
>                         - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?
>                         - which GUA to be mentioned at the draft ?
>                         - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the same as the
>                         IPv4 exactly
>                         working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected when
>                         the vista replaced its
>                         motherboard and having both new and initial
>                         eth.mac shown both?
>                         - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves the cellular
>                         interface of
>                         the IoT
>                         Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link, it
>                         reaches the element of
>                         the access network which connects to the user
>                         equipment (UEs) -
>                         eNodeB station." likes there must be some
>                         wireless "USB.sgw.isp"
>                         host or , Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ? When
>                         one of 4 mac switch
>                         showing Nokia , which sometimes modem connecting
>                         arp -a shown as well?
>                         That would cause the pretty much lost functions
>                         of wire.router.map
>                         always via as if owning speed lower much than
>                         the wireless does have .
> 
>                         [Dmytro] GUA is IPv6 global unique address.
> 
>                         4#
>                         your freely downloadable kernal patch for
>                         Windows BIOS works ?
> 
>                         [Dmytro] This is linux kernel module. Linux
>                         could be ran in the
>                         virtualbox in the windows environment.
> 
>                         5#
>                         "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the
>                         DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to
>                         satisfy the properties of the cellular
>                         infrastructure.. To reach the
>                         PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are
>                         encapsulated by SGW into UDP/
>                         IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for the
>                         GTP-U tunnel. The
>                         corresponding decapsulation mechanism decreases
>                         the Hop Limit; when
>                         the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet is
>                         discarded; to avoid this
>                         situation it is required to put the Hop Limit
>                         value of the DHCPv6
>                         Solicit equal to 255."
> 
>                         - hop in switch default 64 decreased to 48 then the
>                         SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed --->
>                         no ipv6 get to switch
>                         then Rv after it ?
> 
> 
>                         The packet will be discarded when Hop Limit will
>                         reach 0. When Hop Limit
>                          > 0 packet will not be discarded.
> 
> 
>                         Dmytro and Alex
> 
> 
>                         Le 04/10/2019 à 16:16, Li HUANG a écrit :
>                          > Oct. 04 2019  22:12..hk <http://12.hk>
>                         <http://12.hk> w10p m800 Sg|Rv
>                          > Attn:
>                          >
>                          > Authors' Addresses
>                          >
>                          > Dmytro Shytyi
>                          > SFR
>                          > Paris area , Ile-de-France
>                          > France
>                          >
>                          > Email:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net
>                         <mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>
>                         <mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net
>                         <mailto:ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net>>
>                          > URI:http://dmytro.shytyi.net
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Internet-DraDHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP
>                         Implementation in IoT Rou March 2019
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Alexandre Petrescu
>                          > CEA, LIST
>                          > CEA Saclay
>                          > Gif-sur-Yvette , Ile-de-France 91190
>                          > France
>                          >
>                          > Phone: +33169089223
>                          > Email:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr
>                         <mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr>
>                         <mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr
>                         <mailto:Alexandre.Petrescu@cea.fr>>
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Good Day Alex and Dmytro,
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Do read through draft and thank you for your
>                         sharing .
>                          >
>                          > Some here could have not understood them well
>                         or clear , please help in
>                          > details off:
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 1#
>                          > Router - is a node, that performs
>                         forwarding.  Router node is not a
>                          >    final destination of forwarded packets.
>                          >
>                          > Diagram :
>                          > ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1
>                         , IANA x1)---- Router
>                          > (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless
>                         , vpn mac)
>                          >
>                          > && DHCPv6DUID failed to keep the modified
>                         DHCPv6DUID eth.initial.mac
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 2#
>                          > DHCP-PD only can be configured by a figure
>                         not IPv6 . Term of , when
>                          > example 2002:: input :: would make the app
>                         grey uncontinued.
>                          >
>                          > &&
>                          > The Router Avertisement Messages carry the GUNPs
>                          >    that are further used by the stateless
>                         autoconfiguration mechanism
>                          >    (SLAAC)
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 3#
>                          > Global Unique Address (GUA) - is an address
>                         that is globally
>                          >    available and globally unique.
>                          >
>                          > Diagram :
>                          > ISP---Switch (4 mac found : isp x2 , modem x1
>                         , IANA x1)---- Router
>                          > (WAN1,2, LAN 3 mac )---- PCs (wire, wireless
>                         , vpn mac)
>                          >
>                          >            - GUA is DHCPv6DUID eth.mac ?
>                          >            - which GUA to be mentioned at the
>                         draft ?
>                          >            - Dhcpv6DUID using sub-prefix the
>                         same as the IPv4 exactly
>                          > working eth.mac , by ipconfig /all detected
>                         when the vista replaced its
>                          > motherboard and having both new and initial
>                         eth.mac shown both?
>                          >            - "After the DHCPv6 packet leaves
>                         the cellular interface of
>                          > the IoT
>                          >    Requesting Router via wireless OFDMA link,
>                         it reaches the element of
>                          >    the access network which connects to the
>                         user equipment (UEs) -
>                          >    eNodeB station."    likes there must be
>                         some wireless "USB.sgw.isp"
>                          > host or ,  Dhcpv6 must be on Cellular host ?
>                         When one of 4 mac switch
>                          > showing Nokia , which sometimes modem
>                         connecting arp -a shown as well?
>                          > That would cause the pretty much lost
>                         functions of wire.router.map
>                          > always via as if owning speed lower much than
>                         the wireless does have .
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 4#
>                          > your freely downloadable kernal patch for
>                         Windows BIOS works ?
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 5#
>                          > "The Hop Limit of packets that contain the
>                         DHCPv6 data MUST be 255 to
>                          >    satisfy the properties of the cellular
>                         infrastructure.  To reach the
>                          >    PGW from the UE the DHCPv6 packets are
>                         encapsulated by SGW into UDP/
>                          >    IPv4 packets; this encapsulation is for
>                         the GTP-U tunnel.  The
>                          >    corresponding decapsulation mechanism
>                         decreases the Hop Limit; when
>                          >    the Hop Limit reaches value 0 the packet
>                         is discarded; to avoid this
>                          >    situation it is required to put the Hop
>                         Limit value of the DHCPv6
>                          >    Solicit equal to 255."
>                          >
>                          >                  - hop in switch default 64
>                         decreased to 48 then the
>                          > SGW would not work--> no dhcpv6 completed
>                         ---> no ipv6 get to switch
>                          > then Rv after it ?
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 6#
>                          > "It is possible to use IPv6-over-PPP protocol
>                         [RFC1661], with LCP,
>                          >    between the ARM and the modem."
>                          >
>                          >                   "ARM has added a wealth of
>                         wireless technologies to
>                          > its arsenal, but has no immediate plans to
>                         design a modem for mobile or
>                          > Internet of Things devices.
>                          > The company offers CPU and GPU designs that
>                         are widely used in
>                          > smartphones and tablets. A missing piece is a
>                         cellular modem that ARM
>                          > customers could license and put in mobile
>                         devices."
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >               - My modem is Fibre Huawai wire
>                         model, Rv, Sg all
>                          > wirecable devices.
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > 7#
>                          > Could not have been able to select one who
>                         would help Modify Dhcpv6DUID
>                          > completed , sent email to
>                         postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>
>                          > <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>> none replying .
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Sincerely
>                          > bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>
>                          >
>                          > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:27 AM Alexandre
>                         Petrescu
>                          > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>                          >
>                          > Hi Li,
>                          >
>                          > IETF is not police of protocols: IETF can not
>                         force organisations to
>                          > implement protocols or to fix bugs.  But we
>                         can discuss about protocols
>                          > at IETF.
>                          >
>                          > If Microsoft Windows does not implement
>                         DHCPv6-PD on wireless links
>                          > (like on cellular), then I have two things to
>                         say.
>                          >
>                          > One thing is to say that Microsoft
>                         programmers should not worry.  They
>                          > are not the only ones who do not implement
>                         DHCPv6-PD on wireless links.
>                          > There is also Qualcomm who refuses to.  It
>                         may, or it may not be a
>                          > problem.  But it is not only Microsoft.  An
>                         it is a good topic to
>                          > work on.
>                          >
>                          > The other thing is to say that it is possible
>                         to run a linux virtual
>                          > machine on a Microsoft Windows real machine. 
>                         In that linux machine,
>                          > one
>                          > can run DHCPv6-PD, on the wireless interface
>                         of the real Microsoft
>                          > Windows machine.  We propose open source to
>                         achieve this.  It is
>                          > available at
>                          >
>                         https://dmytro.shytyi.net/kd6-danir-lite-kernel-dhcpv6-pd-and-ndp-implementation/
> 
>                          >
>                          > (we have tried to upload it to github, but we
>                         hit a 2Gb upload limit;
>                          > this limit is a thing to complain to github,
>                         together with its lack of
>                          > IPv6 access; and github is now a Microsoft
>                         organisation :-)
>                          >
>                          > Alex and Dmytro
>                          >
>                          >
>                          > Le 20/09/2019 à 01:55, Li HUANG a écrit :
>                          > > 08:47.hk <http://47.hk> <http://47.hk>
>                         <http://47.hk> S8 Sept 20 2019
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > continued...,
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > Thank you rephrasing our diagonose for
>                         assuring the points.
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > Wireless advance for dhcpv6 is imagined to
>                         experienced network maps.
>                          > > Which none wireless devices and plan isp at
>                         all decades.
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > Microsoft who is handing rcf3315 according
>                         modified failures,  to
>                          > > changed board OEM machine, has reached wall
>                         to resolve it inside
>                          > microsoft.
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > Looking for some where who would enter the
>                         juridical like
>                          > IEFT...etc.,
>                          > > in order to edge out what responsibility
>                         taken by who, if in such
>                          > > compromising rcf rules obeying  in conditions.
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > Sincerely yours
>                          > > Li HUANG
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > >
>                          > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 21:05 Alexandre Petrescu
>                          > > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre..petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>                          > >
>                          > >     Dear Li,
>                          > >
>                          > >     Thank you for the partial clarification
>                         you sent in private
>                          > about 'apt
>                          > >     windows'.  I understand that by 'apt
>                         windows' you mean 'apart
>                          > from
>                          > >     windows', which means 'with the
>                         exception of Windows'.
>                          > >
>                          > >     So, I think you mean that we in our
>                         draft have a preference
>                          > to run
>                          > >     DHCPv6-PD over the wireless interface,
>                         like with a phone.
>                          > You also
>                          > >     mean
>                          > >     that is ok.  You also mean that only
>                         Windows runs DHCPv6 on a
>                          > wired
>                          > >     interface; because Windows blocked
>                         DHCPv6 on wwan and wlan
>                          > interface.
>                          > >
>                          > >     I think you are saying that this
>                         Windows blocking DHCPv6-PD
>                          > on the
>                          > >     wireless interfaces caused you a lot of
>                         trouble, even after
>                          > system
>                          > >     updates.
>                          > >
>                          > >     Because of that I think you are asking
>                         that we make and
>                          > forward to
>                          > >     Microsoft, a request to make DHCPv6-PD
>                         on the wireless interface.
>                          > >
>                          > >     I may be wrong though.
>                          > >
>                          > >     I would like to ask you: do you know
>                         somebody at Microsoft
>                          > who cares
>                          > >     about DHCPv6?  Or should I write simply to
>                          > postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>>
>                          > >     <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>
>                          > <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com
>                         <mailto:postmaster@microsoft.com>>>
>                          > >     hoping they will direct the message to
>                         people in charge?
>                          > >
>                          > >     Alex
>                          > >
>                          > >     Le 18/09/2019 à 09:45, Alexandre
>                         Petrescu a écrit :
>                          > >      > Dear Li,
>                          > >      >
>                          > >      > Please help me understand:
>                          > >      >
>                          > >      > What do you mean by 'apt windows'?
>                          > >      >
>                          > >      > Alex
>                          > >      >
>                          > >      > Le 18/09/2019 à 07:39, Li HUANG a
>                         écrit :
>                          > >      >> 09:39.hk <http://39.hk>
>                         <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk/> S8
>                          > Sept 17th 2019
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> Thank you dhcwg returning on this,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd server
>                         sounds very like the
>                          > running
>                          > >      >> preferially to wireless, or phone
>                         networks instead of apt
>                          > >     windows that
>                          > >      >> blocked wwan, wlan services of it ...
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> To the kernel apart, OEM user would
>                         principle following
>                          > its offered
>                          > >      >> updates of system, in case dhcpv6
>                         required update, how would
>                          > >     clients
>                          > >      >> obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415, 6260
>                         whilst OEM warranty
>                          > contract
>                          > >     to get
>                          > >      >> all none conflicts?
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> Microsoft is one putting on
>                         tracking, it must be forwarded to
>                          > >     them about.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> Let have your kind advises on it
>                         please .
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> Sincerely yours
>                          > >      >> Li HUANG
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:48 Li
>                         HUANG <bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>
>                          > >     <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>>
>                          > >      >> <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>
>                          > <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:bleuoisou@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     09:39.hk <http://39.hk>
>                         <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk> <http://39.hk>
>                          > S8 Sept 17th 2019
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     Thank you dhcwg returning on this,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     IoT either PTP to dhcpv6 pd
>                         server sounds very like
>                          > the running
>                          > >      >>     preferially to wireless, or
>                         phone networks instead of apt
>                          > >     windows
>                          > >      >>     that blocked wwan, wlan
>                         services of it ...
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     To the kernel apart, OEM user
>                         would principle
>                          > following its
>                          > >     offered
>                          > >      >>     updates of system, in case
>                         dhcpv6 required update,
>                          > how would
>                          > >     clients
>                          > >      >>     obey protocol rcf 3315, 8415,
>                         6260 whilst OEM warranty
>                          > >     contract to
>                          > >      >>     get all none conflicts?
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     Microsoft is one putting on
>                         tracking, it must be
>                          > forwarded
>                          > >     to them
>                          > >      >>     about.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     Let have your kind advises on
>                         it please .
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     Sincerely yours
>                          > >      >>     Li HUANG
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 00:18
>                         Alexandre Petrescu
>                          > >      >>     <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>                          > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>
>                          > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>                          > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>>>
>                          > >      >>     wrote:
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Hello to participants in
>                         DHC WG,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         One might be interested in
>                         this kernel
>                          > implementation of
>                          > >      >>         DHCPv6-PD parts.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Yours,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Alex and Dmytro
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         -------- Message transféré
>                         --------
>                          > >      >>         Sujet :     Kernel
>                         implementation of DANIR for
>                          > IoT Router -
>                          > >      >>         DHCPv6-PD and ND
>                          > >      >>         Date :     Mon, 16 Sep 2019
>                         09:21:46 +0200
>                          > >      >>         De :     Alexandre Petrescu
>                          > >     <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>>
>                          > >      >>        
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>                          > >     <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
>                          > <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>>>
>                          > >      >>         Pour : v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>
>                          > >     <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>>
>                          > >      >> <v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>>
>                          > >      >>         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>>>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Hi,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         The kernel implementation
>                         of DANIR for IoT Router was
>                          > >     finally
>                          > >      >>         working a few weeks ago.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>     ��   It is an implementation of
>                          > draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-03.txt.
>                          > >      >>         This is the right thing to
>                         do, instead of
>                          > '64share' RFC7278.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         In this video one can see
>                         the kernel in the IoT
>                          > Router
>                          > >     issues a
>                          > >      >>         DHCPv6 PD request on its
>                         egress and obtains a /56; it
>                          > >     then makes
>                          > >      >>         several /64s out of it and
>                         subsequently sends RAs
>                          > with
>                          > >     these on
>                          > >      >>         the ingress interfaces.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         The DHCPv6 server is took
>                         off-the-shelf.  The PDP
>                          > part
>                          > >     is not
>                          > >      >>         present in the IoT Router,
>                         but we expect it to
>                          > work ok
>                          > >     on a ptp
>                          > >      >>         link on a cellular network
>                         to a smartphone.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         The video recorded the
>                         virtual machines output on the
>                          > >     IoT Router
>                          > >      >>         (featured below), the
>                         Client device behind it,
>                          > and the
>                          > >     DHCPv6-PD
>                          > >      >>         server.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >> https://youtu.be/DymVQY7bCUM
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Yours,
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         Alexandre PETRESCU and
>                         Dmytro SHYTYI
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>         PS: we will soon post the
>                         source code on github.
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >>        
>                         _______________________________________________
>                          > >      >>         dhcwg mailing list
>                          > >      >> dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>>
>                          > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
>                          > >     <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>>>
>                          > >      >>
>                         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
>                          > >      >>
>                          > >      >
>                          > >      >
>                         _______________________________________________
>                          > >      > dhcwg mailing list
>                          > >      > dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
>                          > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org> <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>>
>                          > >      >
>                         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
>                          > >
>                          > >   
>                           _______________________________________________
>                          > >     dhcwg mailing list
>                          > > dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>
>                         <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>
>                          > <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>>>
>                          > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg
>                          > >
>                          >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


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From: Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:14:29 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOSSMjVeYGxQDV6=BqF-y=hz61DvtY2_j27pp+=+c_dtychwAg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/OOWCMQ2pMSUnGDvMYZKe9e4q1LE>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--000000000000f9e5dc059620835a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Ted,

We test it four different ways.
A: Lifetimes set to zero (First IA_PD gets to zero, New IAPD as a lifetime)
B: Prefix Timeout (First IA_PD never gets renewed)
C: Reconfigure (Send Reconfigure responding Renew message has first IA_PD
to zero, second IA_PD valid)
D: Change Prefix Length

Details are located here
<https://www.iol.unh.edu/sites/default/files/testsuites/hnc/IPv6_Ready_Spec=
ification_CE_Router_Conformance.pdf>
for
test 2.7.5.

~Tim


On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:59 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu> wrote=
:
>
> We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.
>
>
> And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE asks for a prefix delegation an=
d
> doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it previously had, it deprecates it as des=
cribed in
> L-14?  When this deprecation happens, what ways are being tested for it t=
o
> happen?
>
> E.g., is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA
> Prefix option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing th=
e
> same prefix, with a status code encapsulated in it?   What status code?
> Or is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix?   Or is i=
t
> doing both?
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ted,<div><br></div><div>We test it four different ways.=
</div><div>A:=C2=A0Lifetimes set to zero (First IA_PD gets to zero, New IAP=
D as a lifetime)</div><div>B:=C2=A0Prefix Timeout (First IA_PD never gets r=
enewed)</div><div>C:=C2=A0Reconfigure (Send Reconfigure responding Renew me=
ssage has first IA_PD to zero, second IA_PD valid)</div><div>D:=C2=A0Change=
 Prefix Length</div><div><br></div><div>Details are located <a href=3D"http=
s://www.iol.unh.edu/sites/default/files/testsuites/hnc/IPv6_Ready_Specifica=
tion_CE_Router_Conformance.pdf" target=3D"_blank">here</a>=C2=A0for test 2.=
7.5.</div><div><br></div><div>~Tim</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2019=
 at 8:59 AM Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div>On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:twinters@iol.unh.edu" target=3D"_blank">twinters@iol.unh.=
edu</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">=
We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.</div></div>=
</blockquote></div><br><div>And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE asks =
for a prefix delegation and doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it previously ha=
d, it deprecates it as described in L-14?=C2=A0 When this deprecation happe=
ns, what ways are being tested for it to happen?</div><div><br></div><div>E=
.g., is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA Prefix =
option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing the same pr=
efix, with a status code encapsulated in it? =C2=A0 What status code? =C2=
=A0 Or is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix? =C2=A0 =
Or is it doing both?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000f9e5dc059620835a--


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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:33:08 +0100
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hi Bernie,

=20

I think RFC4649, option 37, provides that option.

=20

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

=20

=20

=20

El 30/10/19 14:25, "v6ops en nombre de Bernie Volz (volz)" <v6ops-bounces@i=
etf.org en nombre de volz@cisco.com> escribi=C3=B3:

=20

While I haven=E2=80=99t followed this discussion in detail, I do wonder if =
the SP DHCP server could provide some assistance to CPEs that don=E2=80=99t=
 have storage =E2=80=A6

=20

When a CPE boots and does a Solicit / Request, it could include a new optio=
n that tells the DHCP server that it has no storage and therefore no knowle=
dge of any =E2=80=9Cpast=E2=80=9D leases. The DHCP server in this case coul=
d include any =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=9D leases it still has a record of (i.e., =
that have not expired but are no longer =E2=80=9Cvalid=E2=80=9D in terms of=
 the configuration because of renumbering or other conditions) with 0 lifet=
imes. That would allow a rebooting CPE to learn old delegated prefixes that=
 it might have advertised to its clients and initiate deprecation of these =
prefixes (and any addresses generated from them).

=20

This would improve the situation when the CPE has no storage and reboots (w=
hether customer or SP initiated).

=20

Note: There could be conditions in which this would fail (such as if SP rem=
oved all configuration related to the older prefixes from the DHCP server),=
 but in many cases it would allow for clean renumbering. Of course, it requ=
ires updating the DHCP software (on the SP servers and in the CPEs), but it=
 probably easier to accomplish than requiring use of storage on the CPE dev=
ice.

=20

Be a relative easy draft to write up (at least in theory).

=20

-          Bernie

=20

From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.c=
om>
Date: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 9:00 AM
To: Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workaroun=
ds

=20

On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu> wrote:=
=20

We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.

=20

And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE asks for a prefix delegation and =
doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it previously had, it deprecates it as descr=
ibed in L-14?  When this deprecation happens, what ways are being tested fo=
r it to happen?

=20

E.g., is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA Prefix=
 option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing the same p=
refix, with a status code encapsulated in it?   What status code?   Or is i=
t returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix?   Or is it doing b=
oth?

=20

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20



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--></style></head><body lang=3DES link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DW=
ordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Bernie,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:=
EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I think RFC4649, opti=
on 37, provides that option.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:b=
lack;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US=
 style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast=
-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>El 30/10/19 14:25, &quot;v6ops en nombre de B=
ernie Volz (volz)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops=
-bounces@ietf.org</a> en nombre de <a href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com">volz@c=
isco.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>While I haven=E2=80=99t followed =
this discussion in detail, I do wonder if the SP DHCP server could provide =
some assistance to CPEs that don=E2=80=99t have storage =E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>When a CPE boots and doe=
s a Solicit / Request, it could include a new option that tells the DHCP se=
rver that it has no storage and therefore no knowledge of any =E2=80=9Cpast=
=E2=80=9D leases. The DHCP server in this case could include any =E2=80=9Co=
ld=E2=80=9D leases it still has a record of (i.e., that have not expired bu=
t are no longer =E2=80=9Cvalid=E2=80=9D in terms of the configuration becau=
se of renumbering or other conditions) with 0 lifetimes. That would allow a=
 rebooting CPE to learn old delegated prefixes that it might have advertise=
d to its clients and initiate deprecation of these prefixes (and any addres=
ses generated from them).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margi=
n-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:35.4pt'>This would improve the situation when the CPE has no storage and=
 reboots (whether customer or SP initiated).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>Note: There could be conditions in which this=
 would fail (such as if SP removed all configuration related to the older p=
refixes from the DHCP server), but in many cases it would allow for clean r=
enumbering. Of course, it requires updating the DHCP software (on the SP se=
rvers and in the CPEs), but it probably easier to accomplish than requiring=
 use of storage on the CPE device.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:35.4pt'>Be a relative easy draft to write up (at least in theor=
y).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:71.4pt;text-=
indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D=
'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>Bernie<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm =
0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t;color:black'>v6ops &lt;v6ops-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Ted Lemon =
&lt;mellon@fugue.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 9:0=
0 AM<br><b>To: </b>Timothy Winters &lt;twinters@iol.unh.edu&gt;<br><b>Cc: <=
/b>&quot;v6ops@ietf.org&quot; &lt;v6ops@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re:=
 [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement &amp; Operational workarounds</span=
><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt=
'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4=
pt'>On Oct 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Timothy Winters &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:twin=
ters@iol.unh.edu">twinters@iol.unh.edu</a>&gt; wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><div><=
blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:Helvetica'>We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the err=
or message.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>And to be clear, you mean that if=
 the CPE asks for a prefix delegation and doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it=
 previously had, it deprecates it as described in L-14? &nbsp;When this dep=
recation happens, what ways are being tested for it to happen?<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>E.g.,=
 is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA Prefix opti=
on, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing the same prefix=
, with a status code encapsulated in it? &nbsp; What status code? &nbsp; Or=
 is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix? &nbsp; Or is =
it doing both?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margi=
n-left:35.4pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________ v6ops mail=
ing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops <o:p></=
o:p></p></div><br>**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
http://www.theipv6company.com<br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
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--B_3655290788_72956351--


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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
Thread-Index: AQHVibwc6PRwlsH+ZUmOeFzp+XKiI6dt8FJugAA0sICAAERiAIAAM1UOgAAj7oCAAC8lwYACBjMAgADxGbaAASHcfIAAAh0AgAAETICAAAb1gIAAEaAAgAAA6YCAAAIjAIAABSGA///EFwCAAEVzAP//wJQA
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:46:09 +0000
Message-ID: <5329B4F4-A06E-4CE4-AE6F-6F96CEFE24ED@cisco.com>
References: <CAOSSMjVhK_V4HpMzprOyo9pj=ysFef+uZUs=twd_zfPaBdPu3Q@mail.gmail.com> <0F0B6068-CA62-449B-B56E-78E9EF8D998E@fugue.com> <CAOSSMjVLP4dx0Z1OKgXBgmuUCmR_C35J87fgkX7V=e7E3iQY3w@mail.gmail.com> <96344740-2F4B-4BCE-A881-EB1A5933AFA2@fugue.com> <F7F614D9-EC79-474C-B81C-CEF0B9EF6908@cisco.com> <724EA0E3-9CD6-4721-90F6-B47ADC31E439@consulintel.es>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:51:06 -0400
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Cc: Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
References: <CAOSSMjVhK_V4HpMzprOyo9pj=ysFef+uZUs=twd_zfPaBdPu3Q@mail.gmail.com> <0F0B6068-CA62-449B-B56E-78E9EF8D998E@fugue.com> <CAOSSMjVLP4dx0Z1OKgXBgmuUCmR_C35J87fgkX7V=e7E3iQY3w@mail.gmail.com> <96344740-2F4B-4BCE-A881-EB1A5933AFA2@fugue.com> <F7F614D9-EC79-474C-B81C-CEF0B9EF6908@cisco.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/JIvKU_FdpLBnT19ATH9lofAayGU>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
> When a CPE boots and does a Solicit / Request, it could include a new =
option that tells the DHCP server that it has no storage and therefore =
no knowledge of any =E2=80=9Cpast=E2=80=9D leases. The DHCP server in =
this case could include any =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=9D leases it still has a =
record of (i.e., that have not expired but are no longer =E2=80=9Cvalid=E2=
=80=9D in terms of the configuration because of renumbering or other =
conditions) with 0 lifetimes. That would allow a rebooting CPE to learn =
old delegated prefixes that it might have advertised to its clients and =
initiate deprecation of these prefixes (and any addresses generated from =
them).

I don=E2=80=99t see any reason why this should not just be the default =
behavior.



--Apple-Mail=_07240815-F81F-44F1-BDA6-20FB75AED0F1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 30, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">When a CPE boots and does a Solicit / =
Request, it could include a new option that tells the DHCP server that =
it has no storage and therefore no knowledge of any =E2=80=9Cpast=E2=80=9D=
 leases. The DHCP server in this case could include any =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=
=9D leases it still has a record of (i.e., that have not expired but are =
no longer =E2=80=9Cvalid=E2=80=9D in terms of the configuration because =
of renumbering or other conditions) with 0 lifetimes. That would allow a =
rebooting CPE to learn old delegated prefixes that it might have =
advertised to its clients and initiate deprecation of these prefixes =
(and any addresses generated from them).</div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t see any reason why this should not =
just be the default behavior.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: Timothy Winters <twinters@iol.unh.edu>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Ted,

>> We check both, the handling of the IA_PD and the error message.
>=20
> And to be clear, you mean that if the CPE asks for a prefix delegation =
and doesn=E2=80=99t get the prefix it previously had, it deprecates it =
as described in L-14?  When this deprecation happens, what ways are =
being tested for it to happen?
>=20
> E.g., is it the case that the client sends an IA PD containing an IA =
Prefix option, is the server returning the IA Prefix option containing =
the same prefix, with a status code encapsulated in it?   What status =
code?   Or is it returning an IA Prefix option with a different prefix?  =
 Or is it doing both?

You are thinking about this wrong.
The simple implementation of uRPF/BCP38 is: on LAN ingress to do a =
lookup in the FIB of the SA, if the resulting adjacency/interface =
matches the ingress interface allow packet otherwise drop packet and =
send ICMP message. This behaviour is required regardless of renumbering =
or not.
The ISP is required to do this on their ingress interfaces too.

Cheers,
Ole=


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--Apple-Mail=_CF65DE2B-2EC5-4D53-985C-6DBBBE50539E
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
> A Solicit kind of means =E2=80=9Cstart from scratch=E2=80=9D. So =
that=E2=80=99s why the current RFC8415 specification does not require =
sending information related to =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=9D leases. The text =
also does not provide for sending 0 lifetimes in an Advertise which is =
where this would first appear =E2=80=93 and then also in the Reply to =
the Request. Perhaps there is an argument that these leases should not =
be added to the Advertise, but be in the Reply to the Request.
> =20
> So, it does get a bit more complex and needs to be worked out.
> =20
> > I don=E2=80=99t see any reason why this should not just be the =
default behavior.
> =20
> As I said that as this is a change in behavior, we don=E2=80=99t know =
what the consequences for existing devices may be =E2=80=93 and in some =
cases, if the device does have storage, would this confuse it? I=E2=80=99m=
 not against having this be a configuration knob in the server which can =
be applied at various =E2=80=9Clevels=E2=80=9D (perhaps even globally).

There are a lot of assumptions you=E2=80=99ve stated here that as far as =
I know do not appear in the standard.   E.g., you may think that a =
solicit kind of means =E2=80=9Cstart from scratch,=E2=80=9D but is it =
not okay for the DHCP server to send 0 lifetimes in the Advertise?  Or =
is it just not suggested?

I agree that it needs to be worked out.   As for existing devices, I =
think that at this point a scorched earth policy is not unreasonable: if =
there are devices out there that have firmware that can=E2=80=99t be =
updated to fix problems like this, it=E2=80=99s probably good if they =
stop working and have to be =E2=80=9Crecycled.=E2=80=9D   I hope that =
number is zero; if for some ISP it=E2=80=99s sufficiently more than zero =
that this isn=E2=80=99t the right solution, then they may have to wait =
until those routers EOL before deploying this =E2=80=9Cnew" behavior.

However, I think in practice this simply wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a =
problem, and complexifying things to prevent such a problem seems =
unnecessary in the absence of data.

Do we test for the case where the DHCP server sends back two IA Prefix =
options in an IA_PD?   I think that=E2=80=99s allowed, isn=E2=80=99t it? =
  Maybe the right behavior is to leave the Advertise unchanged, but send =
to IA Prefixes in the Reply.


--Apple-Mail=_CF65DE2B-2EC5-4D53-985C-6DBBBE50539E
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 30, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">A Solicit kind of means =E2=80=9Cstart =
from scratch=E2=80=9D. So that=E2=80=99s why the current RFC8415 =
specification does not require sending information related to =E2=80=9Cold=
=E2=80=9D leases. The text also does not provide for sending 0 lifetimes =
in an Advertise which is where this would first appear =E2=80=93 and =
then also in the Reply to the Request. Perhaps there is an argument that =
these leases should not be added to the Advertise, but be in the Reply =
to the Request.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">So, it does get a bit more complex and needs to be =
worked out.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">&gt; I don=E2=80=99t see any reason why this should =
not just be the default behavior.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">As I said that as this is a change in =
behavior, we don=E2=80=99t know what the consequences for existing =
devices may be =E2=80=93 and in some cases, if the device does have =
storage, would this confuse it? I=E2=80=99m not against having this be a =
configuration knob in the server which can be applied at various =
=E2=80=9Clevels=E2=80=9D (perhaps even =
globally).</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">There are a lot of assumptions you=E2=80=99ve stated here =
that as far as I know do not appear in the standard. &nbsp; E.g., you =
may think that a solicit kind of means =E2=80=9Cstart from scratch,=E2=80=9D=
 but is it not okay for the DHCP server to send 0 lifetimes in the =
Advertise? &nbsp;Or is it just not suggested?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree that it needs to be worked out. =
&nbsp; As for existing devices, I think that at this point a scorched =
earth policy is not unreasonable: if there are devices out there that =
have firmware that can=E2=80=99t be updated to fix problems like this, =
it=E2=80=99s probably good if they stop working and have to be =
=E2=80=9Crecycled.=E2=80=9D &nbsp; I hope that number is zero; if for =
some ISP it=E2=80=99s sufficiently more than zero that this isn=E2=80=99t =
the right solution, then they may have to wait until those routers EOL =
before deploying this =E2=80=9Cnew" behavior.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">However, I think in practice this =
simply wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a problem, and complexifying things to =
prevent such a problem seems unnecessary in the absence of =
data.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Do we =
test for the case where the DHCP server sends back two IA Prefix options =
in an IA_PD? &nbsp; I think that=E2=80=99s allowed, isn=E2=80=99t it? =
&nbsp; Maybe the right behavior is to leave the Advertise unchanged, but =
send to IA Prefixes in the Reply.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_CF65DE2B-2EC5-4D53-985C-6DBBBE50539E--


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:27:49 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:

> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
> 
> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed /56 
> allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it is not 
> obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed by hand. 
> Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this 
> draft.

If you are talking about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service provider is.

> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, 
> form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not 
> exist as open source or some other available package.

Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64), RAs will be sent for those prefixes.

A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).

> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common 
> deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be 'common'?

"Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.

> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
> 
> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors to 
> the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box at a 
> traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller 
> connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router is connected on 4G.
> 
> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a car. 
>   This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface.  There are 
> several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.

Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64, you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62 would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your mobile device runs android....

-- 
R-A.F.


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To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>, "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 30/10/2019 à 05:26, Jen Linkova a écrit :
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:35 PM Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
> <rajiva@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Yes, same prefix can be specified in DHCPv6 server and router RA
>> PIO. If ever a conflict between the IPv6 addresses at a host, then
>> the host could use DAD to resolve the conflict (and recycle the
>> SLAAC derived address). Standard machinery.
> 
> Well, I guess the more tricky case is 'a host got an address from 
> DHCP, DAD is failing because another host already assigned the same
> IP (manually or via SLAAC)'. What's next (besides sending DECLINE
> back to the server)? Split-brain condition in address assignments is
> hard. The more I read this thread the less I see the point of having
> DHCPv6 (for address assignment) when we have SLAAC.
> 
> Oh...I think I'm breaking the promise I made to myself ("never get 
> involved into SLAAC vs DHCP discussion ever') again...;))

I dont want to discuss a vs b either.

Alex

> 
> 
>> ﻿-----Original Message----- From: Alexandre Petrescu
>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at
>> 2:32 PM To: Rajiv Asati <rajiva@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon
>> <mellon@fugue.com> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org> Subject:
>> Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Le 29/10/2019 à 13:38, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Indeed. CPE router should allow keeping both M and A flags, to
>>> allow simultaneous usage of DHCPv6 and SLAAC by the hosts.
>> 
>> At high level, it makes sense to require to allow simultaneous DHCP
>> and SLAAC usage on a same subnet; a private email suggests the
>> same. With that, Android and Windows would live ok side-by-side on
>> same subnet.
>> 
>> Further, thinking about how to implement the req, one would wonder 
>> whether the prefix in PIO with A flag set in an RA with M set,
>> would be the same as the prefix used by the DHCP Server to form and
>> deliver addresses?
>> 
>> (if yes, I think that is difficult to achieve: (1) difficult to put
>> same prefix in the software implementing RA sending, and in the
>> DHCP server connfig files and (2) difficult to make sure the Server
>> does not form an address for a Client, address that a Host has
>> already formed in the same prefix).
>> 
>> (because of that reason, I think that trying to implement that 
>> requirement would lead to designating a prefix for SLAAC and
>> another prefix for DHCP; that may sound a little bit as a waste).
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>>> 
>>> About time to update RFC7084 - 
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7084#section-4.3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Rajiv
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu 
>>>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three
>>>>> RAs changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and 
>>>>> A(utonomous) flags.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Packet dumps available upon request.
>>>> 
>>>> That’s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit but
>>>> not turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at
>>>> the same time.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it’s not too 
>>>> surprising that implementations get this wrong.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing
>>>> list v6ops@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
>> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 30/10/2019 à 04:35, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) a écrit :
> 
> Yes, same prefix can be specified in DHCPv6 server and router RA PIO.
> If ever a conflict between the IPv6 addresses at a host, then the
> host could use DAD to resolve the conflict (and recycle the SLAAC
> derived address). Standard machinery.

Why would conflict result into recycling through a SLAAC process and not 
a DHCP exchange.

There's no std machinery for that.

Alex


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] out-of-focus: why DHCPv6 breaks Android computers?
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Le 30/10/2019 à 03:56, Jen Linkova a écrit :
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu 
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> At high level, it makes sense to require to allow simultaneous DHCP
>> and SLAAC usage on a same subnet; a private email suggests the
>> same. With that, Android and Windows would live ok side-by-side on
>> same subnet.
> 
> I'm still not sure I understand why you need DHCP for
> Windows...Unless you got that Windows in an antique shop...;) I have
> plenty of Windows machines in the network (in an IPv6-only one as
> well).

Well, my Windows is very new from Dell, not from antique.

My Windows is on DHCPv4-only at work.  At home it works ok on DHCPv6 as 
well.  At home it is a mixed IPv4-IPv6.

My Windows could stop doing DHCPv6 if I request it to, but by default it 
does DHCPv6 in addition to SLAAC.

My Windows could run only SLAAC if I asked it to.

My CPE does IPv6 and SLAAC by default, and DHCPv6 is an option off by 
default.

So - do not worry.

>> Further, thinking about how to implement the req, one would wonder 
>> whether the prefix in PIO with A flag set in an RA with M set,
>> would be the same as the prefix used by the DHCP Server to form and
>> deliver addresses?
> 
>> (if yes, I think that is difficult to achieve: (1) difficult to put
>> same prefix in the software implementing RA sending, and in the
>> DHCP server connfig files
> 
> Could you elaborate on this one? How is "putting the prefix in the 
> software implementing RA sending" different from "configuring a
> prefix on a router interface"? It's like saying 'difficult to
> configure the same IPv4 or IPv6 prefix on the router interface and on
> DHCP server'

I meant to say : 'to maintain'.  If I change something in the DHCP conf 
files then I have to change the same in the RA conf files, to make sure 
the same prefix is present on both.

But, probably some software packages do that ok.

>> and (2) difficult to make sure the Server does not form an address
>> for a Client, address that a Host has already formed in the same 
>> prefix).
> 
> That's could be done to the some degree of confidence - if the pool
> is using the first addresses in the prefix (let's say, the highest
> 50 bits if the interface ID set to 0) then it's rather unlikely that
> such interface ID would be generated by SLAAC. However that's a good
> point, thanks for another item in my collection of 'why I don't need
> DHCPv6' reasons ;))

:-) that starts to sound like being against x in the a vs b discussion.

>> (because of that reason, I think that trying to implement that 
>> requirement would lead to designating a prefix for SLAAC and
>> another prefix for DHCP; that may sound a little bit as a waste).
> 
> I'm sure operating such a network will be...eh...entertaining...

Sure, however, one might need this behaviour.

I think that I might need the DHCPv6 server on the CPE.  The reason I 
might need it is because I might need a Prefix Delegated from that CPE.

Do you think that would not be a valid need?

(I guess you will invite me to check whether my CPE's DHCPv6 option 
responds to an IA_PD request, thing that I will maybe try one day).

(think that currently a /56 is assigned by ISP to my home network, and 
that last time I checked I had to manually decide on a GUI which /64 out 
of that /56 goes to which IP of which in-home router).

Alex

> 
>>>> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ﻿ On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Alexandre Petrescu 
>>>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Well no.  After  activating DHCPv6 on CPE the CPE sent three
>>>>> RAs changing the Lifetime and flipping the M(anaged) and 
>>>>> A(utonomous) flags.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Packet dumps available upon request.
>>>> 
>>>> That’s the problem.   It should turn on the managed bit but
>>>> not turn off the autonomous bit.  The two can validly be on at
>>>> the same time.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course, since their meanings are deprecated, it’s not too 
>>>> surprising that implementations get this wrong.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing
>>>> list v6ops@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list 
>> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 
> 
> 


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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Le 30/10/2019 à 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
> 
>> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
>> 
>> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
>> /56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
>> is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
>> by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem 
>> described in this draft.
> 
> If you are talking about residential service (not 
> business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service 
> provider is.

(my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
to split it into 8 /64s).

YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.

The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).

>> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with 
>> DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other 
>> interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available 
>> package.
> 
> Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix 
> (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
> each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
> RAs will be sent for those prefixes.

I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
packages already do it.

Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
is the best way.

> A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in 
> some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and 
> assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th 
> prefix go to interface ZZZ).

It's good to know.

But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
want it.

For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.

I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.

Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.

I dont think there is a standard way to do it.

>> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common 
>> deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
>>  'common'?
> 
> "Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
> supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.

Well.

A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
Both?  Just one?

How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its Server?

>> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
>> 
>> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
>>  to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
>>  at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights 
>> Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
>> is connected on 4G.
>> 
>> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
>> car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
>> are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
> 
> Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,

My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.

I dont want NAT64.

> you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several 
> other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 
> addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC 
> or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
> would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
> mobile device runs android....

Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.

I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets nearby.

However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).

In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.

Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a requirement.

Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
CPE for similar reasons.

If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
connection (e.g. a WiFi<->USB, or a USB<->Ethernet device) to extend to
other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use DHCPv6-PD.

Alex

> 


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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hello:

DHC folks may want to check out the recent discussion on the v6ops mailing =
list (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/) with the "SLAAC renu=
m: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds" subject.

Basically, one issue that appears to happen in networks where CPEs receive =
delegated prefixes and are renumbered when a CPE cycles power - why the ren=
umbering occurs is not material. The issue is that some of the devices serv=
iced by the CPE may still have configuration (i.e., from Prefix Information=
 Options received via RAs or perhaps even DHCP) based on the original deleg=
ated prefix and if the CPE does not have stable storage (into which it stor=
ed the old delegated prefix), nothing initiates deprecating this informatio=
n. This is because everyone is honoring the lifetimes, but the renumbering =
caused the SP DHCP server to provide a totally new delegated prefix and the=
re's no record in the CPE of the old.

For a CPE that has stable storage, it could initiate steps to deprecate the=
 old delegated prefix.

Note that this issue is discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fkhp=
-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-00#section-3.2 and also in section 4.3 (S=
-1) of that draft.

One idea that I suggested is that the SP DHCP server can provide this infor=
mation to the CPE. The DHCP server should still have a record of the previo=
us delegated prefix (as it has not yet expired for the binding) and it coul=
d therefore send this, with 0 lifetimes, in the Reply to the Request (as it=
 would do in a Renew). This would avoid the need for the CPE to keep this i=
nformation in stable storage.

There isn't any direct mention of sending IA_PD (or IA_NA) with 0 lifetimes=
 in the processing of Requests, but it isn't a stretch to consider this. An=
d, without something, it isn't obvious that servers should (or would) do th=
is?

Some possibilities are (from least conservative to most):

  1.  Always have the server do this (sending 0 lifetimes) for a Reply to a=
 Request for this condition.
  2.  (1) but only for Relayed messages.
  3.  Have a server configuration knob (at whatever granularities desired -=
 global, prefix, client, ...).
  4.  Define a new option that a client would include in (Solicit/)Request =
to request this behavior. Note that (3) could always override.

Hopefully existing clients would handle this correctly, though they likely =
would not take the action to deprecate the old delegated prefix. But we don=
't know (and at least early in the DHCPv6 days, clients weren't always happ=
y when they received multiple delegated prefixes). Hence, how conservative =
should we be?

Perhaps we can discuss as part of draft-fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requiremen=
ts (which is on the agenda for IETF-106), or I could request a separate slo=
t for it - if we need a higher bandwidth discussion.

We can also just discuss here on the mailing list as it may be possible to =
resolve fairly quickly.

It will require a short draft as it is something that would need to be fold=
ed into a RFC8415 bis or continue on it own. Probably adding it to draft-fk=
hp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements is not best since these are the delegat=
ing relay, not server, requirements.


  *   Bernie

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">DHC folks may want to check out the recent discussio=
n on the v6ops mailing list (<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/b=
rowse/v6ops/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/</a>) with the=
 &#8220;SLAAC renum: Problem Statement &amp; Operational
 workarounds&#8221; subject.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Basically, one issue that appears to happen in netwo=
rks where CPEs receive delegated prefixes and are renumbered when a CPE cyc=
les power &#8211; why the renumbering occurs is not material. The issue is =
that some of the devices serviced by the
 CPE may still have configuration (i.e., from Prefix Information Options re=
ceived via RAs or perhaps even DHCP) based on the original delegated prefix=
 and if the CPE does not have stable storage (into which it stored the old =
delegated prefix), nothing initiates
 deprecating this information. This is because everyone is honoring the lif=
etimes, but the renumbering caused the SP DHCP server to provide a totally =
new delegated prefix and there&#8217;s no record in the CPE of the old.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For a CPE that has stable storage, it could initiate=
 steps to deprecate the old delegated prefix.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that this issue is discussed in <a href=3D"http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-00#sect=
ion-3.2">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-00#=
section-3.2</a> and also in section 4.3 (S-1) of that draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One idea that I suggested is that the SP DHCP server=
 can provide this information to the CPE. The DHCP server should still have=
 a record of the previous delegated prefix (as it has not yet expired for t=
he binding) and it could therefore
 send this, with 0 lifetimes, in the Reply to the Request (as it would do i=
n a Renew). This would avoid the need for the CPE to keep this information =
in stable storage.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There isn&#8217;t any direct mention of sending IA_P=
D (or IA_NA) with 0 lifetimes in the processing of Requests, but it isn&#82=
17;t a stretch to consider this. And, without something, it isn&#8217;t obv=
ious that servers should (or would) do this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some possibilities are (from least conservative to m=
ost):<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Always have the server do this (sending 0 lifetimes) for a Reply to a=
 Request for this condition.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">(1) but only for Relayed =
messages.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-lef=
t:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Have a server configuration knob (at whateve=
r granularities desired &#8211; global, prefix, client, &#8230;).<o:p></o:p=
></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 l=
evel1 lfo1">Define a new option that a client would include in (Solicit/)Re=
quest to request this behavior. Note that (3) could always override.<o:p></=
o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hopefully existing clients would handle this correct=
ly, though they likely would not take the action to deprecate the old deleg=
ated prefix. But we don&#8217;t know (and at least early in the DHCPv6 days=
, clients weren&#8217;t always happy when they
 received multiple delegated prefixes). Hence, how conservative should we b=
e?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps we can discuss as part of draft-fkhp-dhc-dhc=
pv6-pd-relay-requirements (which is on the agenda for IETF-106), or I could=
 request a separate slot for it - if we need a higher bandwidth discussion.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can also just discuss here on the mailing list as=
 it may be possible to resolve fairly quickly.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It will require a short draft as it is something tha=
t would need to be folded into a RFC8415 bis or continue on it own. Probabl=
y adding it to draft-fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements is not best sinc=
e these are the delegating relay,
 not server, requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2">Bernie<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
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From nobody Wed Oct 30 14:53:23 2019
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From: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:52:59 +0100
Message-ID: <CAOpJ=k06SRAHR7S+UmvFu=zvyk8j_uica2gdbBij+5pr+Jykww@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
Cc: "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/_h8wRzbD0XL1WbMmfJwSvA0Osss>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hi Bernie:

If suggestion (1) or (2), an older CPE that borks over two delegated
prefixes would stay borked until the old prefix expired. And it seems
like suggestion (3) still runs the risk of catching that older CPE.
Configuring that knob at the client level seems like a lot of
management overhead.

I wonder if introducing suggestions (1) or (2) aren't pushing existing
clients to expose new bugs they may have? Suggestion (4) seems
reasonable to me.

- Bud






On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:02 PM Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
>
>
> DHC folks may want to check out the recent discussion on the v6ops mailin=
g list (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/) with the =E2=80=9C=
SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds=E2=80=9D subject.
>
>
>
> Basically, one issue that appears to happen in networks where CPEs receiv=
e delegated prefixes and are renumbered when a CPE cycles power =E2=80=93 w=
hy the renumbering occurs is not material. The issue is that some of the de=
vices serviced by the CPE may still have configuration (i.e., from Prefix I=
nformation Options received via RAs or perhaps even DHCP) based on the orig=
inal delegated prefix and if the CPE does not have stable storage (into whi=
ch it stored the old delegated prefix), nothing initiates deprecating this =
information. This is because everyone is honoring the lifetimes, but the re=
numbering caused the SP DHCP server to provide a totally new delegated pref=
ix and there=E2=80=99s no record in the CPE of the old.
>
>
>
> For a CPE that has stable storage, it could initiate steps to deprecate t=
he old delegated prefix.
>
>
>
> Note that this issue is discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fk=
hp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-00#section-3.2 and also in section 4.3 =
(S-1) of that draft.
>
>
>
> One idea that I suggested is that the SP DHCP server can provide this inf=
ormation to the CPE. The DHCP server should still have a record of the prev=
ious delegated prefix (as it has not yet expired for the binding) and it co=
uld therefore send this, with 0 lifetimes, in the Reply to the Request (as =
it would do in a Renew). This would avoid the need for the CPE to keep this=
 information in stable storage.
>
>
>
> There isn=E2=80=99t any direct mention of sending IA_PD (or IA_NA) with 0=
 lifetimes in the processing of Requests, but it isn=E2=80=99t a stretch to=
 consider this. And, without something, it isn=E2=80=99t obvious that serve=
rs should (or would) do this?
>
>
>
> Some possibilities are (from least conservative to most):
>
> Always have the server do this (sending 0 lifetimes) for a Reply to a Req=
uest for this condition.
> (1) but only for Relayed messages.
> Have a server configuration knob (at whatever granularities desired =E2=
=80=93 global, prefix, client, =E2=80=A6).
> Define a new option that a client would include in (Solicit/)Request to r=
equest this behavior. Note that (3) could always override.
>
>
>
> Hopefully existing clients would handle this correctly, though they likel=
y would not take the action to deprecate the old delegated prefix. But we d=
on=E2=80=99t know (and at least early in the DHCPv6 days, clients weren=E2=
=80=99t always happy when they received multiple delegated prefixes). Hence=
, how conservative should we be?
>
>
>
> Perhaps we can discuss as part of draft-fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirem=
ents (which is on the agenda for IETF-106), or I could request a separate s=
lot for it - if we need a higher bandwidth discussion.
>
>
>
> We can also just discuss here on the mailing list as it may be possible t=
o resolve fairly quickly.
>
>
>
> It will require a short draft as it is something that would need to be fo=
lded into a RFC8415 bis or continue on it own. Probably adding it to draft-=
fkhp-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements is not best since these are the deleg=
ating relay, not server, requirements.
>
>
>
> Bernie
>
> _______________________________________________
> dhcwg mailing list
> dhcwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
References: <MWHPR1101MB2288616D545F3DAD1D1734A1CF600@MWHPR1101MB2288.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CAOpJ=k06SRAHR7S+UmvFu=zvyk8j_uica2gdbBij+5pr+Jykww@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com> =
wrote:
> I wonder if introducing suggestions (1) or (2) aren't pushing existing
> clients to expose new bugs they may have? Suggestion (4) seems
> reasonable to me.

Clients that have bugs should be updated.  Routers that aren=E2=80=99t =
updatable should be binned.   Sites that have massive numbers of =
non-updatable routers that can=E2=80=99t be updated don=E2=80=99t have =
to turn the feature on.   I think it=E2=80=99s fine to make this a =
server configuration parameter.

The benefit to doing this correctly is that it=E2=80=99s arguably =
already correct.  There are likely routers out there that will already =
do the right thing when they get a deprecated prefix.   The most likely =
use case for a deprecated prefix is not that it has a valid lifetime of =
zero, but that it has a preferred lifetime of zero: a graceful =
renumbering event.   DHCPv6 should already support graceful renumbering. =
  This was a design goal.


--Apple-Mail=_ABAACE6E-7661-4DA5-8269-58A53B65D4D8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 30, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Bud Millwood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" =
class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">I wonder if introducing suggestions (1) or (2) aren't pushing =
existing</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">clients to =
expose new bugs they may have? Suggestion (4) seems</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">reasonable to =
me.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Clients =
that have bugs should be updated. &nbsp;Routers that aren=E2=80=99t =
updatable should be binned. &nbsp; Sites that have massive numbers of =
non-updatable routers that can=E2=80=99t be updated don=E2=80=99t have =
to turn the feature on. &nbsp; I think it=E2=80=99s fine to make this a =
server configuration parameter.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The benefit to doing this correctly is =
that it=E2=80=99s arguably already correct. &nbsp;There are likely =
routers out there that will already do the right thing when they get a =
deprecated prefix. &nbsp; The most likely use case for a deprecated =
prefix is not that it has a valid lifetime of zero, but that it has a =
preferred lifetime of zero: a graceful renumbering event. &nbsp; DHCPv6 =
should already support graceful renumbering. &nbsp; This was a design =
goal.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Oct 30 15:08:58 2019
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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>> I wonder if introducing suggestions (1) or (2) aren't pushing =
existing
>> clients to expose new bugs they may have? Suggestion (4) seems
>> reasonable to me.
>=20
> Clients that have bugs should be updated.  Routers that aren=E2=80=99t =
updatable should be binned.   Sites that have massive numbers of =
non-updatable routers that can=E2=80=99t be updated don=E2=80=99t have =
to turn the feature on.   I think it=E2=80=99s fine to make this a =
server configuration parameter.
>=20
> The benefit to doing this correctly is that it=E2=80=99s arguably =
already correct.  There are likely routers out there that will already =
do the right thing when they get a deprecated prefix.   The most likely =
use case for a deprecated prefix is not that it has a valid lifetime of =
zero, but that it has a preferred lifetime of zero: a graceful =
renumbering event.   DHCPv6 should already support graceful renumbering. =
  This was a design goal.

Right, why wouldn't this just be (accellerated) graceful renumbering as =
already described in 3633/8415.
I don't understand why this would expose bugs or require a new option?

Cheers,
Ole=


From nobody Wed Oct 30 15:16:26 2019
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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
CC: "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dhcwg] [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
CC: "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:43:17 -0400
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To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
> I should point out that having the dhcp server supply this information =
may not work all the time. It really depends on what configuration =
changes were made and the server implementation. And of course is =
useless if you =E2=80=9Cmove=E2=80=9D the CPE.

In this case the prefix would presumably no longer be valid; if it was =
valid and was offered as a deprecated prefix, it would cause no harm.

I am not suggesting that this should just start happening with no =
testing.   What I am suggesting is that forcing firmware updates on CPE =
routers isn=E2=80=99t something we should be as chary of as we used to =
be.


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From: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 00:18:28 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two
prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle
that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to
test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix
a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.

> This would avoid the need for the CPE to keep this information in stable =
storage.
> So this isn=E2=80=99t going to be prefect (only storage on CPE will do th=
at)

I'm leaning towards a server-side configuration option. Creating a new
option to request something that may or may not work doesn't seem
great.

- Bud

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 11:43 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
> > I should point out that having the dhcp server supply this information =
may not work all the time. It really depends on what configuration changes =
were made and the server implementation. And of course is useless if you =
=E2=80=9Cmove=E2=80=9D the CPE.
>
> In this case the prefix would presumably no longer be valid; if it was va=
lid and was offered as a deprecated prefix, it would cause no harm.
>
> I am not suggesting that this should just start happening with no testing=
.   What I am suggesting is that forcing firmware updates on CPE routers is=
n=E2=80=99t something we should be as chary of as we used to be.
>
> _______________________________________________
> dhcwg mailing list
> dhcwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dhcwg


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com> =
wrote:
> It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two
> prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle
> that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to
> test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
> possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix
> a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.

The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they are =
out of spec.  This is already allowed in the RFC.

Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this =
correctly.   If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then =
bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a =
zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.


--Apple-Mail=_F0D318B4-EF02-4484-8549-65664529A3CA
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" =
class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about =
putting two</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">prefixes in a =
reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that =
gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need =
to</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">test this =
feature, and a server side configuration makes that</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">possible. =
Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">a hosed CPE =
is could be a big issue.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a =
two-PD response, they are out of spec. &nbsp;This is already allowed in =
the RFC.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t =
handle this correctly. &nbsp; If they can be bricked by a message with =
two PDs, then bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99=
s a zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F0D318B4-EF02-4484-8549-65664529A3CA--


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:38:41 +1100
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: [v6ops] A broken promise - "You said PD Prefix Valid Lifetime is going to be X" (Re: SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds)
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 22:02, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>
<snip>

> In the case when a requesting router loses a prefix, it can of course sig=
nal that to the hosts as proposed in Fernando's draft. But that doesn't sol=
ve the general problem, and I'm skeptical to using addressing as a reachabi=
lity signal. E.g. if the CPE's upstream link flaps, is that enough to trigg=
er deprecation of the prefix? Of course it shouldn't.
>

Exactly. Transient network faults are supposed to be survived - that's
why TCP makes quite a number of attempts at re-transmitting when
packet loss occurs, rather than just immediately terminating the
connection.

When an ISP "flash renumbers" a customer what's really happening is
that the customer's network layer point of attachment to the network
is being changed - the customer is being abruptly disconnected, moved
and re-connected. Possibly that is easy to overlook because the
customers physical location and their physical link to the network
doesn't change.

I think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD prefix's
Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix
with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise by
abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expected
to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.

Regards,
Mark.


> Ole
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dhcwg] [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
Thread-Index: AQHVj3NwV9i3QJoK8Ua4yd4/ygUlcadz0cUAgAADvgCAABbtIw==
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 00:53:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD =
prefix's Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD =
Prefix with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise =
by abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be =
expected to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D

Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class of ISPs that have =
repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete disregard for such =
niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most major eyeball ISPs in the =
US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that accommodates this fact in =
favor of the user will likely lead to a better user experience than =
stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave properly.

> And it would be worth better understanding exactly what happens in =
these situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed or lost =
that)  ... if the Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even =
the SP dhcp server may be unable to assist.

With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t need to =
assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their =
expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The =
CPU should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised them.

This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP side.

Owen

>=20
> - Bernie
>=20
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com =
<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com =
<mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com>> wrote:
>>> It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting =
two
>>> prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't =
handle
>>> that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to
>>> test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
>>> possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to =
fix
>>> a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.
>>=20
>> The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they =
are out of spec.  This is already allowed in the RFC.
>>=20
>> Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this =
correctly.   If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then =
bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a =
zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, =
0);" class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to =
what the PD prefix's&nbsp;Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP =
supplied a PD Prefix&nbsp;with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then =
broke that promise
 by&nbsp;abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be =
expected&nbsp;to live up to their Valid Lifetime =
promises.=E2=80=9D</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class =
of ISPs that have repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete =
disregard for such niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most major =
eyeball ISPs in the US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that =
accommodates this fact in favor of the user will likely lead to a better =
user experience than stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave =
properly.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">

<div class=3D"">And it would be worth better understanding exactly what =
happens in these situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed =
or lost that) &nbsp;... if the Prefix configuration really is radically =
changed, even the SP dhcp server may be unable to =
assist.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>With =
what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t need to =
assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their =
expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The =
CPU should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised them.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on =
the SP side.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">- Bernie</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" =
class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It's
 not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting =
two</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">prefixes
 in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that
 gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need =
to</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">test
 this feature, and a server side configuration makes that</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">possible.
 Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">a
 hosed CPE is could be a big issue.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD =
response, they are out of spec. &nbsp;This is already allowed in the =
RFC.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t =
handle this correctly. &nbsp; If they can be bricked by a message with =
two PDs, then bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99=
s a zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">v6ops =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
CC: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
Thread-Index: AQHVj4wF2N9x2yVd00KuCcRTFHdPxadz+cYg
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:48:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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--_000_MWHPR1101MB22883C9D6880B84F103F884DCF630MWHPR1101MB2288_--


From nobody Wed Oct 30 19:12:51 2019
Return-Path: <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:12:30 +1100
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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Cc: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>, dhcwg@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 12:40 Owen DeLong, <owen@delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
>
> =E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD prefix=
's Valid
> Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix with a Vali=
d
> Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise by abruptly changing
> addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expected to live up to their
> Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class of ISPs that have
> repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete disregard for such niceti=
es
> as promises to customers (e.g. most major eyeball ISPs in the US at a
> minimum), so having CPE behavior that accommodates this fact in favor of
> the user will likely lead to a better user experience than stomping or fe=
et
> and insisting that ISPs behave properly.
>

So if some enterprise network operators said to the IETF,

"We want to be able to change the VLAN assignments of any of our IPv6 hosts
randomly and unexpectedly, including at 9:10 am when everybody is checking
their email, and have the hosts handle that entirely seamlessly."

would we consider that to be a reasonable request?



> And it would be worth better understanding exactly what happens in these
> situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed or lost that)  ..=
.
> if the Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even the SP dhcp
> server may be unable to assist.
>
>
> With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t need to a=
ssist.
> The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their expected
> expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The CPU should
> update this when a packet making a change to these timers is received. It
> should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot renew from the
> links where it previously advertised them.
>
> This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP side.
>
> Owen
>
>
> - Bernie
>
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
> wrote:
>
> It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two
> prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle
> that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to
> test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
> possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix
> a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.
>
>
> The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they are ou=
t of
> spec.  This is already allowed in the RFC.
>
> Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this corre=
ctly.
> If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then bricking them is t=
he
> right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a zero-day vulnerability wide o=
pen on the
> customer network.
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 12:40 Owen DeLong, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-wh=
ite-space"><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 30, 2019, at =
5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>



<div dir=3D"auto">
Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">=E2=80=9CI think =
Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD prefix&#39;s=C2=A0Valid L=
ifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix=C2=A0with a Va=
lid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise
 by=C2=A0abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expe=
cted=C2=A0to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D</span></div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Sure, but in the real world, there=
 is an entire class of ISPs that have repeatedly demonstrated utter and nea=
r complete disregard for such niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most =
major eyeball ISPs in the US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that acc=
ommodates this fact in favor of the user will likely lead to a better user =
experience than stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave properly.</=
div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">So if some enterprise network operators said to the IETF,</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">&quot;We want to be able to change =
the VLAN assignments of any of our IPv6 hosts randomly and unexpectedly, in=
cluding at 9:10 am when everybody is checking their email, and have the hos=
ts handle that entirely seamlessly.&quot;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">would we consider that to be a reasonable request?</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto">

<div>And it would be worth better understanding exactly what happens in the=
se situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed or lost that) =
=C2=A0... if the Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even the=
 SP dhcp server may be unable to assist.</div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div>With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t =
need to assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their=
 expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The CP=
U should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is recei=
ved. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot renew from=
 the links where it previously advertised them.</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
is doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP side.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">
<div><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">- Bernie</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">budm@w=
eird-solutions.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">It&#39;s
 not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
text-decoration:none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">prefixes
 in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can&#39;t handle</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
text-decoration:none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">that
 gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;te=
xt-decoration:none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">test
 this feature, and a server side configuration makes that</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-de=
coration:none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">possible.
 Also, I&#39;m all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix</span><br=
 style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">a
 hosed CPE is could be a big issue.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they are=
 out of spec.=C2=A0 This is already allowed in the RFC.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this co=
rrectly. =C2=A0 If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then bric=
king them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a zero-day vulne=
rability wide open on the customer network.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a=
 href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6ops@=
ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o=
ps</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div>______________________________=
_________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">v6op=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
References: <MWHPR1101MB2288616D545F3DAD1D1734A1CF600@MWHPR1101MB2288.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CAOpJ=k06SRAHR7S+UmvFu=zvyk8j_uica2gdbBij+5pr+Jykww@mail.gmail.com> <C0A66DA1-29DE-456A-934D-7ECC07575336@cisco.com> <8755B40E-4075-4AAC-BF59-19B6DF9BA6D1@cisco.com> <B23EE439-1509-43FB-9813-F330117DBF42@fugue.com> <CAOpJ=k25ML8Z0_QRN8yoYdXut=tsZBwtBZEstceT45csb1Aunw@mail.gmail.com> <E8D9F8C2-C4C1-44CC-AB06-87A3461B704A@fugue.com> <A72A93B2-B947-4365-A811-50D8908B01EA@cisco.com> <F2F145F7-E678-48C9-A765-BD2D22F793EE@delong.com> <MWHPR1101MB22883C9D6880B84F103F884DCF630@MWHPR1101MB2288.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/gUWDDC_N2NiY8iFpsXzuLxP1864>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 30, 2019, at 6:48 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Owen:
> =20
> =E2=80=9CThe CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their =
expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The =
CPU should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised them.=E2=80=9D

Argh=E2=80=A6 That should read CPE, not CPU.
=20
> I fully agree with that. That is the best and most complete solution. =
No disagreement there.
> =20
> I was just trying to come up with something that could help in cases =
where this was not reasonable.

Such as? I cannot fathom a case where this isn=E2=80=99t reasonable. All =
CPE has non-volatile memory for storing settings. We=E2=80=99re talking =
about adding 24 octets per prefix and unlikely more than 3 prefixes per =
interface. Assuming no more than 4 (routed) interfaces on your basic =
home gateway, that=E2=80=99s a maximum of 12 prefixes for a total of 288 =
octets of storage.
=20
> Note that it is technically a bit more than just write to storage as a =
clock is also needed to know whether the prefix needs to be deprecated =
or not. Perhaps time can come from the network or the device can just =
deprecate regardless of time if the new prefix is different when it =
reboots?

Nope=E2=80=A6 It isn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=A6. The clock is an existing =
function of the CPE. All you need to write is the expected expiration =
time. (Current clock + prefix timer) to the non-volatile storage. You =
don=E2=80=99t need to count down the timer values.

The clock can be internal or synchronized to NTP or some other time =
service, but virtually every CPE already has an internal clock, so =
there=E2=80=99s no additional requirement here. In fact, the CPE _HAS_ =
to have a clock already to know when prefixes time out without a reboot =
or flash renumbering event.

Owen

> =20
> Bernie
> =20
> From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 9:39 PM
> To: Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com <mailto:volz@cisco.com>>
> Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>>; Bud =
Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com <mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com>>; =
dhcwg@ietf.org <mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org =
<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & =
Operational workarounds
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com =
<mailto:volz@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:=20
> =20
> =E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD =
prefix's Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD =
Prefix with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise =
by abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be =
expected to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D
> =20
> Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class of ISPs that =
have repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete disregard for such =
niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most major eyeball ISPs in the =
US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that accommodates this fact in =
favor of the user will likely lead to a better user experience than =
stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave properly.
>=20
>=20
> And it would be worth better understanding exactly what happens in =
these situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed or lost =
that)  ... if the Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even =
the SP dhcp server may be unable to assist.
> =20
> With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t need =
to assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their =
expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The =
CPU should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised them.
> =20
> This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP side.
> =20
> Owen
>=20
>=20
> =20
> - Bernie
>=20
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com =
<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com =
<mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com>> wrote:
> It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two
> prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle
> that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need to
> test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
> possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix
> a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.
> =20
> The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they are =
out of spec.  This is already allowed in the RFC.
> =20
> Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this =
correctly.   If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then =
bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a =
zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>

--Apple-Mail=_081C5415-863F-400D-B6C9-4D2BC6D4EC9A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 6:48 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Owen:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9CTh=
e CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their expected =
expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The CPU =
should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised =
them.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Argh=E2=80=A6 That should read CPE, not =
CPU.</div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I fully agree with that. =
That is the best and most complete solution. No disagreement there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I was =
just trying to come up with something that could help in cases where =
this was not reasonable.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Such as? I cannot fathom a case where this isn=E2=80=99t =
reasonable. All CPE has non-volatile memory for storing settings. =
We=E2=80=99re talking about adding 24 octets per prefix and unlikely =
more than 3 prefixes per interface. Assuming no more than 4 (routed) =
interfaces on your basic home gateway, that=E2=80=99s a maximum of 12 =
prefixes for a total of 288 octets of storage.</div><div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Note that it is technically a bit more =
than just write to storage as a clock is also needed to know whether the =
prefix needs to be deprecated or not. Perhaps time can come from the =
network or the device can just deprecate regardless of time if the new =
prefix is different when it reboots?</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Nope=E2=80=A6 It isn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=A6. The clock is =
an existing function of the CPE. All you need to write is the expected =
expiration time. (Current clock + prefix timer) to the non-volatile =
storage. You don=E2=80=99t need to count down the timer =
values.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The clock can be internal or =
synchronized to NTP or some other time service, but virtually every CPE =
already has an internal clock, so there=E2=80=99s no additional =
requirement here. In fact, the CPE _HAS_ to have a clock already to know =
when prefixes time out without a reboot or flash renumbering =
event.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Bernie<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, October 30, 2019 =
9:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ted =
Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt;; Bud =
Millwood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dhcwg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">dhcwg@ietf.org</a>; IPv6 Operations &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC =
renum: Problem Statement &amp; Operational workarounds<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this =
is contrary to what the PD prefix's&nbsp;Valid Lifetime said would be =
the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix&nbsp;with a Valid Lifetime of X =
seconds, and then broke that promise by&nbsp;abruptly changing =
addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expected&nbsp;to live up to =
their Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class of ISPs =
that have repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete disregard for =
such niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most major eyeball ISPs in =
the US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that accommodates this fact =
in favor of the user will likely lead to a better user experience than =
stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave properly.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">And it would be worth =
better understanding exactly what happens in these situations (perhaps =
it was covered earlier but I missed or lost that) &nbsp;... if the =
Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even the SP dhcp =
server may be unable to assist.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t=
 need to assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and =
their expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent =
storage. The CPU should update this when a packet making a change to =
these timers is received. It should make every effort to deprecate =
prefixes it cannot renew from the links where it previously advertised =
them.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP =
side.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Owen<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Bernie<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at =
7:32 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">It's not so much =
about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting two<br =
class=3D"">prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that =
can't handle<br class=3D"">that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that =
providers of course need to<br class=3D"">test this feature, and a =
server side configuration makes that<br class=3D"">possible. Also, I'm =
all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix<br class=3D"">a hosed =
CPE is could be a big issue.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t =
handle a two-PD response, they are out of spec. &nbsp;This is already =
allowed in the RFC.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t =
handle this correctly. &nbsp; If they can be bricked by a message with =
two PDs, then bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99=
s a zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">v6ops mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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8 /64s is a /61.
16 /64s is a /60.
256 /64s is a /56.
You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would =
complain to any ISP that gave me less.

Owen

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Le 30/10/2019 =C3=A0 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a =C3=A9crit :
>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
>>> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
>>> /56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
>>> is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
>>> by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem =
described in this draft.
>> If you are talking about residential service (not =
business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service =
provider is.
>=20
> (my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I =
get
> at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
> to split it into 8 /64s).
>=20
> YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment =
is
> a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than =
a
> 'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.
>=20
> The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
> callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a =
payment
> in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
> others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).
>=20
>>> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with =
DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other =
interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available =
package.
>> Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix =
(shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
>> each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
>> RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
>=20
> I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's =
in
> that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
> packages already do it.
>=20
> Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
> there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt =
it
> is the best way.
>=20
>> A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in =
some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and =
assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix =
go to interface ZZZ).
>=20
> It's good to know.
>=20
> But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
> want it.
>=20
> For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
> other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.
>=20
> I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.
>=20
> Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.
>=20
> I dont think there is a standard way to do it.
>=20
>>> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common =
deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
>>> 'common'?
>> "Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
>> supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
>=20
> Well.
>=20
> A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
> Both?  Just one?
>=20
> How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its =
Server?
>=20
>>> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
>>> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
>>> to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
>>> at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights =
Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
>>> is connected on 4G.
>>> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
>>> car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
>>> are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
>> Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
>=20
> My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.
>=20
> I dont want NAT64.
>=20
>> you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several =
other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 =
addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or =
something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
>> would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
>> mobile device runs android....
>=20
> Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.
>=20
> I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in =
certain
> circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets =
nearby.
>=20
> However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
> does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
> support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
> interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).
>=20
> In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
> It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.
>=20
> Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a =
requirement.
>=20
> Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
> CPE for similar reasons.
>=20
> If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
> connection (e.g. a WiFi<->USB, or a USB<->Ethernet device) to extend =
to
> other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use =
DHCPv6-PD.
>=20
> Alex
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Cc: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>, dhcwg@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR1101MB2288616D545F3DAD1D1734A1CF600@MWHPR1101MB2288.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CAOpJ=k06SRAHR7S+UmvFu=zvyk8j_uica2gdbBij+5pr+Jykww@mail.gmail.com> <C0A66DA1-29DE-456A-934D-7ECC07575336@cisco.com> <8755B40E-4075-4AAC-BF59-19B6DF9BA6D1@cisco.com> <B23EE439-1509-43FB-9813-F330117DBF42@fugue.com> <CAOpJ=k25ML8Z0_QRN8yoYdXut=tsZBwtBZEstceT45csb1Aunw@mail.gmail.com> <E8D9F8C2-C4C1-44CC-AB06-87A3461B704A@fugue.com> <A72A93B2-B947-4365-A811-50D8908B01EA@cisco.com> <F2F145F7-E678-48C9-A765-BD2D22F793EE@delong.com> <CAO42Z2xQ99cjjJzySRS7T32dBYzeyXH8FVH56enuHLE8Eqz=_Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] [dhcwg] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 12:40 Owen DeLong, <owen@delong.com =
<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com =
<mailto:volz@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
>>=20
>> =E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD =
prefix's Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD =
Prefix with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise =
by abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be =
expected to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Sure, but in the real world, there is an entire class of ISPs that =
have repeatedly demonstrated utter and near complete disregard for such =
niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most major eyeball ISPs in the =
US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that accommodates this fact in =
favor of the user will likely lead to a better user experience than =
stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave properly.
>=20
> So if some enterprise network operators said to the IETF,
>=20
> "We want to be able to change the VLAN assignments of any of our IPv6 =
hosts randomly and unexpectedly, including at 9:10 am when everybody is =
checking their email, and have the hosts handle that entirely =
seamlessly."
>=20
> would we consider that to be a reasonable request?

Probably not, but we=E2=80=99re not asking that and we=E2=80=99re not =
asking for the hosts to handle it.

We=E2=80=99re asking for CPE routers in residential and SMB environments =
 to handle what is already a common behavior of residential and SMB ISPs =
through a relatively simple CPE change.

Owen

>=20
>=20
>=20
>> And it would be worth better understanding exactly what happens in =
these situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed or lost =
that)  ... if the Prefix configuration really is radically changed, even =
the SP dhcp server may be unable to assist.
>=20
> With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server doesn=E2=80=99t need =
to assist. The CPU should write the set of received prefixes and their =
expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to persistent storage. The =
CPU should update this when a packet making a change to these timers is =
received. It should make every effort to deprecate prefixes it cannot =
renew from the links where it previously advertised them.
>=20
> This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP side.
>=20
> Owen
>=20
>>=20
>> - Bernie
>>=20
>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com =
<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood <budm@weird-solutions.com =
<mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com>> wrote:
>>>> It's not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting =
two
>>>> prefixes in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't =
handle
>>>> that gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need =
to
>>>> test this feature, and a server side configuration makes that
>>>> possible. Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to =
fix
>>>> a hosed CPE is could be a big issue.
>>>=20
>>> The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD response, they =
are out of spec.  This is already allowed in the RFC.
>>>=20
>>> Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t handle this =
correctly.   If they can be bricked by a message with two PDs, then =
bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99s a =
zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Mark Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 31 =
Oct 2019, 12:40 Owen DeLong, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" =
class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Bernie Volz =
(volz) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:volz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">volz@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">



<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
Mark Smith on v6ops ml wrote:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI think Ole observed that this is contrary to what =
the PD prefix's&nbsp;Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP =
supplied a PD Prefix&nbsp;with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then =
broke that promise
 by&nbsp;abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be =
expected&nbsp;to live up to their Valid Lifetime =
promises.=E2=80=9D</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Sure, but in the real world, there is an =
entire class of ISPs that have repeatedly demonstrated utter and near =
complete disregard for such niceties as promises to customers (e.g. most =
major eyeball ISPs in the US at a minimum), so having CPE behavior that =
accommodates this fact in favor of the user will likely lead to a better =
user experience than stomping or feet and insisting that ISPs behave =
properly.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">So if some =
enterprise network operators said to the IETF,</div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">"We want to =
be able to change the VLAN assignments of any of our IPv6 hosts randomly =
and unexpectedly, including at 9:10 am when everybody is checking their =
email, and have the hosts handle that entirely seamlessly."</div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">would we consider that to be a reasonable =
request?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Probably =
not, but we=E2=80=99re not asking that and we=E2=80=99re not asking for =
the hosts to handle it.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>We=E2=80=99re =
asking for CPE routers in residential and SMB environments &nbsp;to =
handle what is already a common behavior of residential and SMB ISPs =
through a relatively simple CPE change.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">

<div class=3D"">And it would be worth better understanding exactly what =
happens in these situations (perhaps it was covered earlier but I missed =
or lost that) &nbsp;... if the Prefix configuration really is radically =
changed, even the SP dhcp server may be unable to =
assist.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>With what is being proposed, the SP DHCP server =
doesn=E2=80=99t need to assist. The CPU should write the set of received =
prefixes and their expected expiration times (preferred, valid) to =
persistent storage. The CPU should update this when a packet making a =
change to these timers is received. It should make every effort to =
deprecate prefixes it cannot renew from the links where it previously =
advertised them.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This doesn=E2=80=99t require anything special on the SP =
side.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Owen</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">- Bernie</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:32 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 7:18 PM, Bud Millwood =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:budm@weird-solutions.com" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">budm@weird-solutions.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">It's=

 not so much about the lifetime of the prefix as about putting =
two</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" =
class=3D"">prefixes
 in a reply to a request, right? And any CPE that can't handle</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">that=

 gracefully gets hosed. I agree that providers of course need =
to</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">test=

 this feature, and a server side configuration makes that</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" =
class=3D"">possible.
 Also, I'm all for firmware upgrades, but requiring it to fix</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<span =
style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">a
 hosed CPE is could be a big issue.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">The thing is, if they can=E2=80=99t handle a two-PD =
response, they are out of spec.&nbsp; This is already allowed in the =
RFC.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Granted, there may be plenty of CPEs that won=E2=80=99t =
handle this correctly. &nbsp; If they can be bricked by a message with =
two PDs, then bricking them is the right thing to do, because that=E2=80=99=
s a zero-day vulnerability wide open on the customer network.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">v6ops =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">
v6ops mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Le 31/10/2019 à 04:05, Owen DeLong a écrit :
> 8 /64s is a /61.

Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is 64.

Yet in the hextet notation, I get ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see an annotated 
figure of GUI below).  They are 8 /64s.  I dont see ce18, neither ce19 
in the GUI.  Might it be that my neighbor gets ce18 and ce19, but it 
would mean s/he cant get more than 2 /64s.  Might it be that free hides 
ce18 and ce19 for something else inside my home that they dont tell me 
what.  Might it be they expect me to ask them for more addresses later.

Whether I get a /61 or a /60 at home is still a valid question for me.

> 16 /64s is a /60.
> 256 /64s is a /56.
> You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would complain to any ISP that gave me less.I

I keep the /48 request in mind for my next interaction with their 
service, because I have many things to ask.

I suppose they will ask me, in return, if I already spent the 2^61 
addresses they already gave me.

Alex



PS:

For information, see below an annotated copy of the GUI listing the form 
of the 8 prefixes I see in GUI on CPE.

One may notice things to complain about: the use of ff:fe in the LL, the 
way they call it 'Prefix Delegation' without using DHCPv6-PD and the 
optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by default - they dream :-)

You may understand why I say I have many things to ask them.





>
> Owen
>
>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 30/10/2019 à 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a écrit :
>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>>> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
>>>> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
>>>> /56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
>>>> is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
>>>> by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this draft.
>>> If you are talking about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service provider is.
>> (my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
>> at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
>> to split it into 8 /64s).
>>
>> YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
>> a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
>> 'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.
>>
>> The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
>> callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
>> in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
>> others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).
>>
>>>> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available package.
>>> Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
>>> each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
>>> RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
>> I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
>> that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
>> packages already do it.
>>
>> Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
>> there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
>> is the best way.
>>
>>> A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).
>> It's good to know.
>>
>> But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
>> want it.
>>
>> For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
>> other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.
>>
>> I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.
>>
>> Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.
>>
>> I dont think there is a standard way to do it.
>>
>>>> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
>>>> 'common'?
>>> "Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
>>> supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
>> Well.
>>
>> A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
>> Both?  Just one?
>>
>> How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its Server?
>>
>>>> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
>>>> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
>>>> to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
>>>> at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
>>>> is connected on 4G.
>>>> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
>>>> car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
>>>> are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
>>> Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
>> My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.
>>
>> I dont want NAT64.
>>
>>> you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
>>> would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
>>> mobile device runs android....
>> Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.
>>
>> I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
>> circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets nearby.
>>
>> However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
>> does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
>> support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
>> interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).
>>
>> In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
>> It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.
>>
>> Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a requirement.
>>
>> Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
>> CPE for similar reasons.
>>
>> If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
>> connection (e.g. a WiFi<->USB, or a USB<->Ethernet device) to extend to
>> other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use DHCPv6-PD.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/10/2019 à 04:05, Owen DeLong a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">8 /64s is a /61.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><tt>Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is
        64.</tt></p>
    <p><tt>Yet in the hextet notation, I get ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see an
        annotated figure of GUI below).  They are 8 /64s.  I dont see
        ce18, neither ce19 in the GUI.  Might it be that my neighbor
        gets ce18 and ce19, but it would mean s/he cant get more than 2
        /64s.  Might it be that free hides ce18 and ce19 for something
        else inside my home that they dont tell me what.  Might it be
        they expect me to ask them for more addresses later.<br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt>Whether I get a /61 or a /60 at home is still a valid
        question for me.</tt><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">16 /64s is a /60.
256 /64s is a /56.
You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would complain to any ISP that gave me less.I </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><tt>I keep the /48 request in mind for my next interaction with
        their service, because I have many things to ask.<br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt>I suppose they will ask me, in return, if I already spent the
        2^61 addresses they already gave me.</tt></p>
    <p><tt>Alex</tt></p>
    <p><tt><br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt><br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt>PS:<br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt>For information, see below an annotated copy of the GUI
        listing the form of the 8 prefixes I see in GUI on CPE.</tt></p>
    <p><tt>One may notice things to complain about: the use of ff:fe in
        the LL, the way they call it 'Prefix Delegation' without using
        DHCPv6-PD and the optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by
        default - they dream :-)</tt></p>
    <p><tt>You may understand why I say I have many things to ask them.</tt></p>
    <p><tt><br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt><img src="cid:part1.CC1568DF.6695AE4C@gmail.com" alt=""
          width="620" height="669"><br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">

Owen

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">&lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:



Le 30/10/2019 à 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a écrit :
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
/56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this draft.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">If you are talking about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service provider is.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
(my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
to split it into 8 /64s).

YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.

The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available package.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
packages already do it.

Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
is the best way.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
It's good to know.

But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
want it.

For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.

I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.

Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.

I dont think there is a standard way to do it.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
'common'?
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">"Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Well.

A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
Both?  Just one?

How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its Server?

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
- an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
is connected on 4G.
- a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.

I dont want NAT64.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
mobile device runs android....
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.

I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets nearby.

However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).

In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.

Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a requirement.

Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
CPE for similar reasons.

If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
connection (e.g. a WiFi&lt;-&gt;USB, or a USB&lt;-&gt;Ethernet device) to extend to
other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use DHCPv6-PD.

Alex


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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From nobody Thu Oct 31 03:26:03 2019
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] IPv6 new access from Windows to Google: display of a critical security alert
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Google alerted me a few days ago during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I 
browsed it with a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although many 
times previously with IPv4.

Incidentally, the address my Windows used was an address delivered by 
DHCPv6. Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet 
representation, the '::' appears before the last two hextets 
(X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address where the double colon 
appears quasi always before the last _four_ hextets.

I am trying to understand why Google complained wiht such a critical 
security alert.

- is it because the address was a DHCP address rather than SLAAC?

- it is because I connect from an address they have never seen before?

- is it because it is the first time I connect to them by IPv6 on this 
computer?

- is it because when I connect  with IPv6 to them I keep changing the 
IPv6 address (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because behind NAT)?

The messages they displayed are not helpful to understand what's 
happening, because they talk about 'application security', 'wrong 
device', etc.  Neither is the case: I have a running anti-virus so my 
apps are healthy and the device is always the same Windows device I use 
to connect to Google.


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    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">Google alerted me a few
          days ago during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I browsed it with
          a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although many times
          previously with IPv4.</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">Incidentally, the
          address my Windows used was an address delivered by DHCPv6. 
          Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet
          representation, the '::' appears before the last two hextets
          (X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address where the double
          colon appears quasi always before the last _four_ hextets.</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">I am trying to
          understand why Google complained wiht such a critical security
          alert.<br>
        </font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">- is it because the
          address was a DHCP address rather than SLAAC?</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">- it is because I
          connect from an address they have never seen before?</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">- is it because it is
          the first time I connect to them by IPv6 on this computer?</font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">- is it because when I
          connect  with IPv6 to them I keep changing the IPv6 address
          (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because behind NAT)?<br>
        </font></font></p>
    <p><font size="-1"><font face="Courier New">The messages they
          displayed are not helpful to understand what's happening,
          because they talk about 'application security', 'wrong
          device', etc.  Neither is the case: I have a running
          anti-virus so my apps are healthy and the device is always the
          same Windows device I use to connect to Google.</font></font></p>
    <p><img src="cid:part1.48581BCA.C5B5C943@gmail.com" alt=""
        width="407" height="482"></p>
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--------------2337D06D61F12A2712D84C19--

--------------21FA509471B2502024ED670C--


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To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Le 31/10/2019 =C3=A0 04:05, Owen DeLong a =C3=A9crit :
>> 8 /64s is a /61.
> Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is 64.
>=20
>=20
Well, a /60 would include not only ce10..ce17, but also ce18, ce19, =
ce1a, ce1b, ce1c, ce1d, ce1e, and ce1f.

I=E2=80=99m not familiar with your particular router or its GUI, so I =
can=E2=80=99t explain why it displays what it does.

It may simply be limited to 8 subnets that it can handle. It may be =
something else.

I doubt that it has anything to do with your neighbor as your neighbor =
would get their own separate PD. They might have the opposing /61 =
(ce18..ce1f), but in that case they would still also have 8 subnets in =
that case.
> Yet in the hextet notation, I get ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see an =
annotated figure of GUI below).  They are 8 /64s.  I dont see ce18, =
neither ce19 in the GUI.  Might it be that my neighbor gets ce18 and =
ce19, but it would mean s/he cant get more than 2 /64s.  Might it be =
that free hides ce18 and ce19 for something else inside my home that =
they dont tell me what.  Might it be they expect me to ask them for more =
addresses later.
>=20
> Whether I get a /61 or a /60 at home is still a valid question for me.
>=20
>> 16 /64s is a /60.
>> 256 /64s is a /56.
>> You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would =
complain to any ISP that gave me less.I=20
> I keep the /48 request in mind for my next interaction with their =
service, because I have many things to ask.
>=20
> I suppose they will ask me, in return, if I already spent the 2^61 =
addresses they already gave me.
>=20
This is IPv4think. In the IPv6 world, the intent is to provide large =
blocks to avoid future need to renumber and routing table pollution.

Owen

> Alex
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> PS:
>=20
> For information, see below an annotated copy of the GUI listing the =
form of the 8 prefixes I see in GUI on CPE.
>=20
> One may notice things to complain about: the use of ff:fe in the LL, =
the way they call it 'Prefix Delegation' without using DHCPv6-PD and the =
optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by default - they dream :-)
>=20
> You may understand why I say I have many things to ask them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> <mohkmddlfcdkakja.png>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Owen
>>=20
>>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Le 30/10/2019 =C3=A0 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a =C3=A9crit :
>>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>>>> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
>>>>> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
>>>>> /56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and =
it
>>>>> is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
>>>>> by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem =
described in this draft.
>>>> If you are talking about residential service (not =
business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service =
provider is.
>>> (my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I =
get
>>> at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes =
me
>>> to split it into 8 /64s).
>>>=20
>>> YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The =
payment is
>>> a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other =
than a
>>> 'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.
>>>=20
>>> The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
>>> callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a =
payment
>>> in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
>>> others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself =
so).
>>>=20
>>>>> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with =
DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other =
interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available =
package.
>>>> Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix =
(shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
>>>> each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix =
::/64),
>>>> RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
>>> I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's =
in
>>> that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some =
software
>>> packages already do it.
>>>=20
>>> Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
>>> there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I =
doubt it
>>> is the best way.
>>>=20
>>>> A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in =
some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and =
assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix =
go to interface ZZZ).
>>> It's good to know.
>>>=20
>>> But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
>>> want it.
>>>=20
>>> For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
>>> other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.
>>>=20
>>> I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.
>>>=20
>>> Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.
>>>=20
>>> I dont think there is a standard way to do it.
>>>=20
>>>>> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common =
deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
>>>>> 'common'?
>>>> "Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE =
that
>>>> supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
>>> Well.
>>>=20
>>> A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
>>> Both?  Just one?
>>>=20
>>> How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its =
Server?
>>>=20
>>>>> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
>>>>> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
>>>>> to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
>>>>> at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights =
Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
>>>>> is connected on 4G.
>>>>> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in =
a
>>>>> car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
>>>>> are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
>>>> Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
>>> My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.
>>>=20
>>> I dont want NAT64.
>>>=20
>>>> you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several =
other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 =
addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or =
something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
>>>> would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
>>>> mobile device runs android....
>>> Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.
>>>=20
>>> I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in =
certain
>>> circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets =
nearby.
>>>=20
>>> However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) =
it
>>> does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
>>> support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
>>> interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).
>>>=20
>>> In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and =
CANs.
>>> It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.
>>>=20
>>> Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a =
requirement.
>>>=20
>>> Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on =
the
>>> CPE for similar reasons.
>>>=20
>>> If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no =
cellular
>>> connection (e.g. a WiFi<->USB, or a USB<->Ethernet device) to extend =
to
>>> other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use =
DHCPv6-PD.
>>>=20
>>> Alex
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div class=3D""><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </p>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/10/2019 =C3=A0 04:05, Owen =
DeLong a
      =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com" class=3D"">
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">8 /64s is a /61.
</pre>
    </blockquote><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">Right, I guess 8 /64s is a =
/61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is
        64.</tt></p><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote>Well, a /60 would include not =
only ce10..ce17, but also ce18, ce19, ce1a, ce1b, ce1c, ce1d, ce1e, and =
ce1f.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not familiar with =
your particular router or its GUI, so I can=E2=80=99t explain why it =
displays what it does.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It may simply =
be limited to 8 subnets that it can handle. It may be something =
else.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I doubt that it has anything =
to do with your neighbor as your neighbor would get their own separate =
PD. They might have the opposing /61 (ce18..ce1f), but in that case they =
would still also have 8 subnets in that case.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D""><tt=
 class=3D"">Yet in the hextet notation, I get ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see =
an
        annotated figure of GUI below).&nbsp; They are 8 /64s.&nbsp; I =
dont see
        ce18, neither ce19 in the GUI.&nbsp; Might it be that my =
neighbor
        gets ce18 and ce19, but it would mean s/he cant get more than 2
        /64s.&nbsp; Might it be that free hides ce18 and ce19 for =
something
        else inside my home that they dont tell me what.&nbsp; Might it =
be
        they expect me to ask them for more addresses later.<br =
class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">Whether I get a /61 or a /60 =
at home is still a valid
        question for me.</tt><br class=3D"">
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com" class=3D"">
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">16 /64s is a /60.
256 /64s is a /56.
You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would =
complain to any ISP that gave me less.I </pre>
    </blockquote><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">I keep the /48 request in =
mind for my next interaction with
        their service, because I have many things to ask.<br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">I suppose they will ask me, =
in return, if I already spent the
        2^61 addresses they already gave =
me.</tt></p></div></div></blockquote>This is IPv4think. In the IPv6 =
world, the intent is to provide large blocks to avoid future need to =
renumber and routing table pollution.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D""><tt=
 class=3D"">Alex</tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">PS:<br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">For information, see below =
an annotated copy of the GUI
        listing the form of the 8 prefixes I see in GUI on =
CPE.</tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">One may notice things to =
complain about: the use of ff:fe in
        the LL, the way they call it 'Prefix Delegation' without using
        DHCPv6-PD and the optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by
        default - they dream :-)</tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">You =
may understand why I say I have many things to ask them.</tt></p><p =
class=3D""><tt class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D""><span =
id=3D"cid:part1.CC1568DF.6695AE4C@gmail.com">&lt;mohkmddlfcdkakja.png&gt;<=
/span><br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com" class=3D"">
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
Owen

</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 =
AM, Alexandre Petrescu <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">&lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail.=
com&gt;</a> wrote:



Le 30/10/2019 =C3=A0 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a =C3=A9crit :
</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, =
at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">In particular, the =
home networks scenario is very appropriate.
First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
/56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem =
described in this draft.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">If you are talking =
about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like =
to know who your service provider is.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">(my correction: I am not =
at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
to split it into 8 /64s).

YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.

The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">I must say that this =
kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, =
and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not exist as open =
source or some other available package.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Dibbler-client does =
that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is =
obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">I did not know.  The =
difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
packages already do it.

Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
is the best way.

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">A lot (?? most ??) of =
CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some =
do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), =
other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">It's good to know.

But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
want it.

For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.

I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.

Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.

I dont think there is a standard way to do it.

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Because of that, I am =
surprised that you call it 'the most common deployment scenario'.  Is =
this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
'common'?
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">"Expected enough" to =
warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Well.

A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
Both?  Just one?

How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its =
Server?

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">I would like to =
request addition of two other scenarios:
- an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller =
connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
is connected on 4G.
- a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Like : you have a =
mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">My CPE is not doing =
NAT64, I think.

I dont want NAT64.

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">you pout it in =
tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices =
(usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the =
same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It =
is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
mobile device runs android....
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Well.  Android is good in =
many places and for many goals.

I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets =
nearby.

However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).

In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.

Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a =
requirement.

Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
CPE for similar reasons.

If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
connection (e.g. a WiFi&lt;-&gt;USB, or a USB&lt;-&gt;Ethernet device) =
to extend to
other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use =
DHCPv6-PD.

Alex


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D""></pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 new access from Windows to Google: display of a critical security alert
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:25 AM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Google alerted me a few days ago during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I =
browsed it with a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although many =
times previously with IPv4.
>=20
>=20
Since I don=E2=80=99t speak French, it=E2=80=99s hard to interpret the =
error message and I can=E2=80=99t paste the contents of an image into =
google translate.

> Incidentally, the address my Windows used was an address delivered by =
DHCPv6.  Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet =
representation, the '::' appears before the last two hextets =
(X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address where the double colon =
appears quasi always before the last _four_ hextets.
>=20
>=20
Google can=E2=80=99t tell how you got the address. The position of the =
:: is irrelevant. This is simply an artifact of the UI in question. Any =
address which contains contiguous hextets of all zeroes (e.g. 0:0:0) may =
abbreviate one such group of hextets to ::.

Example: 2001:d8b:0:0:53a2:0:0:1 can be written as:
	2001:db8::53a2:0:0:1
	2001:db8:0:0:53a2::1

All three of the above expressions represent the same exact 128-bit =
address.
> I am trying to understand why Google complained wiht such a critical =
security alert.
>=20
Hard to say. Is the security alert about your address or is it about the =
site you were trying to visit?
If you can provide an English translation of the message, it might be =
possible to provide better advice.

> - is it because the address was a DHCP address rather than SLAAC?
>=20
No. Google can=E2=80=99t tell how the address was assigned. It=E2=80=99s =
just another 128 bit number from Google=E2=80=99s perspective.

> - it is because I connect from an address they have never seen before?
>=20
Without being able to decipher the error message, it=E2=80=99s hard to =
say.
> - is it because it is the first time I connect to them by IPv6 on this =
computer?
>=20
Not likely.
> - is it because when I connect  with IPv6 to them I keep changing the =
IPv6 address (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because behind NAT)?
>=20
Not likely.
> The messages they displayed are not helpful to understand what's =
happening, because they talk about 'application security', 'wrong =
device', etc.  Neither is the case: I have a running anti-virus so my =
apps are healthy and the device is always the same Windows device I use =
to connect to Google.
>=20
Again, without a translation of the full error message, there is not =
enough information to answer your questions. No guarantee that a =
translation of the full error message would provide enough information, =
but probably worth a try.

Owen

> <gapjjmicnkndmmma.jpg>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:25 AM, Alexandre Petrescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">Google alerted me a few
          days ago during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I browsed it with
          a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although many times
          previously with IPv4.</font></font></p><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote>Since I don=E2=80=99t speak =
French, it=E2=80=99s hard to interpret the error message and I can=E2=80=99=
t paste the contents of an image into google translate.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">Incidentally, the
          address my Windows used was an address delivered by =
DHCPv6.&nbsp;
          Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet
          representation, the '::' appears before the last two hextets
          (X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address where the double
          colon appears quasi always before the last _four_ =
hextets.</font></font></p><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote>Google can=E2=80=99t tell how =
you got the address. The position of the :: is irrelevant. This is =
simply an artifact of the UI in question. Any address which contains =
contiguous hextets of all zeroes (e.g. 0:0:0) may abbreviate one such =
group of hextets to ::.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Example: =
2001:d8b:0:0:53a2:0:0:1 can be written as:</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2001:db8::53a2:0:0:1</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2001:db8:0:0:53a2::1</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>All =
three of the above expressions represent the same exact 128-bit =
address.</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">I am trying to
          understand why Google complained wiht such a critical security
          alert.<br =
class=3D""></font></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Hard to say. =
Is the security alert about your address or is it about the site you =
were trying to visit?</div><div>If you can provide an English =
translation of the message, it might be possible to provide better =
advice.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1"=
 class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">
        </font></font></p><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font=
 face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">- is it because the
          address was a DHCP address rather than =
SLAAC?</font></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div>No. Google can=E2=80=
=99t tell how the address was assigned. It=E2=80=99s just another 128 =
bit number from Google=E2=80=99s perspective.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">- it is because I
          connect from an address they have never seen =
before?</font></font></p></div></div></blockquote>Without being able to =
decipher the error message, it=E2=80=99s hard to say.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">- is it because it is
          the first time I connect to them by IPv6 on this =
computer?</font></font></p></div></div></blockquote>Not likely.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">- is it because when I
          connect&nbsp; with IPv6 to them I keep changing the IPv6 =
address
          (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because behind NAT)?<br =
class=3D""></font></font></p></div></div></blockquote>Not likely.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">
        </font></font></p><p class=3D""><font size=3D"-1" class=3D""><font=
 face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">The messages they
          displayed are not helpful to understand what's happening,
          because they talk about 'application security', 'wrong
          device', etc.&nbsp; Neither is the case: I have a running
          anti-virus so my apps are healthy and the device is always the
          same Windows device I use to connect to =
Google.</font></font></p></div></div></blockquote>Again, without a =
translation of the full error message, there is not enough information =
to answer your questions. No guarantee that a translation of the full =
error message would provide enough information, but probably worth a =
try.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D""><span =
id=3D"cid:part1.48581BCA.C5B5C943@gmail.com">&lt;gapjjmicnkndmmma.jpg&gt;<=
/span></p>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">v6ops =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Le 31/10/2019 à 15:16, Owen DeLong a écrit :
>
>
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu 
>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le 31/10/2019 à 04:05, Owen DeLong a écrit :
>>> 8 /64s is a /61.
>>
>> Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is 64.
>>
>>
> Well, a /60 would include not only ce10..ce17, but also ce18, ce19, 
> ce1a, ce1b, ce1c, ce1d, ce1e, and ce1f.
>
> I’m not familiar with your particular router or its GUI, so I can’t 
> explain why it displays what it does.
>
> It may simply be limited to 8 subnets that it can handle. It may be 
> something else.
>
> I doubt that it has anything to do with your neighbor as your neighbor 
> would get their own separate PD. They might have the opposing /61 
> (ce18..ce1f), but in that case they would still also have 8 subnets in 
> that case.


I think that's right.

I think I conclude I get a /61 at home from Free.  I will try to not 
forget this number in future conversations.

(remark, a private email also challenged me on the stability and 
contractuability of this prefix: I must say I dont know; I just know it 
did not change in several years)


>> Yet in the hextet notation, I get ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see an 
>> annotated figure of GUI below).  They are 8 /64s.  I dont see ce18, 
>> neither ce19 in the GUI.  Might it be that my neighbor gets ce18 and 
>> ce19, but it would mean s/he cant get more than 2 /64s.  Might it be 
>> that free hides ce18 and ce19 for something else inside my home that 
>> they dont tell me what.  Might it be they expect me to ask them for 
>> more addresses later.
>>
>> Whether I get a /61 or a /60 at home is still a valid question for me.
>>
>>> 16 /64s is a /60.
>>> 256 /64s is a /56.
>>> You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would complain to any ISP that gave me less.I
>>
>> I keep the /48 request in mind for my next interaction with their 
>> service, because I have many things to ask.
>>
>> I suppose they will ask me, in return, if I already spent the 2^61 
>> addresses they already gave me.
>>
> This is IPv4think. In the IPv6 world, the intent is to provide large 
> blocks to avoid future need to renumber and routing table pollution.


Noted the IPv4think.

Alex


>
> Owen
>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:
>>
>> For information, see below an annotated copy of the GUI listing the 
>> form of the 8 prefixes I see in GUI on CPE.
>>
>> One may notice things to complain about: the use of ff:fe in the LL, 
>> the way they call it 'Prefix Delegation' without using DHCPv6-PD and 
>> the optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by default - they dream :-)
>>
>> You may understand why I say I have many things to ask them.
>>
>>
>> <mohkmddlfcdkakja.png>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 30/10/2019 à 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a écrit :
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>>>>> In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
>>>>>> First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
>>>>>> /56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
>>>>>> is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
>>>>>> by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this draft.
>>>>> If you are talking about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service provider is.
>>>> (my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
>>>> at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
>>>> to split it into 8 /64s).
>>>>
>>>> YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
>>>> a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
>>>> 'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.
>>>>
>>>> The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
>>>> callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
>>>> in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
>>>> others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).
>>>>
>>>>>> I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available package.
>>>>> Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
>>>>> each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
>>>>> RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
>>>> I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
>>>> that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
>>>> packages already do it.
>>>>
>>>> Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
>>>> there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
>>>> is the best way.
>>>>
>>>>> A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).
>>>> It's good to know.
>>>>
>>>> But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
>>>> want it.
>>>>
>>>> For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
>>>> other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.
>>>>
>>>> I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.
>>>>
>>>> Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.
>>>>
>>>> I dont think there is a standard way to do it.
>>>>
>>>>>> Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
>>>>>> 'common'?
>>>>> "Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
>>>>> supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
>>>> Well.
>>>>
>>>> A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
>>>> Both?  Just one?
>>>>
>>>> How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its Server?
>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
>>>>>> - an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
>>>>>> to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
>>>>>> at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
>>>>>> is connected on 4G.
>>>>>> - a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
>>>>>> car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
>>>>>> are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
>>>>> Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
>>>> My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.
>>>>
>>>> I dont want NAT64.
>>>>
>>>>> you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
>>>>> would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
>>>>> mobile device runs android....
>>>> Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
>>>> circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets nearby.
>>>>
>>>> However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
>>>> does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
>>>> support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
>>>> interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).
>>>>
>>>> In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
>>>> It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.
>>>>
>>>> Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a requirement.
>>>>
>>>> Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
>>>> CPE for similar reasons.
>>>>
>>>> If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
>>>> connection (e.g. a WiFi<->USB, or a USB<->Ethernet device) to extend to
>>>> other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use DHCPv6-PD.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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    <p><br>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/10/2019 à 15:16, Owen DeLong a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:AC9B4576-1F1F-49CA-AE62-066C2CBDC2E4@delong.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br class="">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu
            &lt;<a href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;
            wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><br class="">
              </p>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/10/2019 à 04:05, Owen
                DeLong a écrit :<br class="">
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com"
                class="">
                <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">8 /64s is a /61.
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <p class=""><tt class="">Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61
                  because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is 64.</tt></p>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Well, a /60 would include not only ce10..ce17, but also ce18,
        ce19, ce1a, ce1b, ce1c, ce1d, ce1e, and ce1f.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>I’m not familiar with your particular router or its GUI, so I
        can’t explain why it displays what it does.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>It may simply be limited to 8 subnets that it can handle. It
        may be something else.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>I doubt that it has anything to do with your neighbor as your
        neighbor would get their own separate PD. They might have the
        opposing /61 (ce18..ce1f), but in that case they would still
        also have 8 subnets in that case.<br class="">
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>I think that's right.</p>
    <p>I think I conclude I get a /61 at home from Free.  I will try to
      not forget this number in future conversations.</p>
    <p>(remark, a private email also challenged me on the stability and
      contractuability of this prefix: I must say I dont know; I just
      know it did not change in several years)</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:AC9B4576-1F1F-49CA-AE62-066C2CBDC2E4@delong.com">
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><tt class="">Yet in the hextet notation, I get
                  ce10, ce11 ... ce17 (see an annotated figure of GUI
                  below).  They are 8 /64s.  I dont see ce18, neither
                  ce19 in the GUI.  Might it be that my neighbor gets
                  ce18 and ce19, but it would mean s/he cant get more
                  than 2 /64s.  Might it be that free hides ce18 and
                  ce19 for something else inside my home that they dont
                  tell me what.  Might it be they expect me to ask them
                  for more addresses later.<br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">Whether I get a /61 or a /60 at
                  home is still a valid question for me.</tt><br
                  class="">
              </p>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com"
                class="">
                <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">16 /64s is a /60.
256 /64s is a /56.
You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would complain to any ISP that gave me less.I </pre>
              </blockquote>
              <p class=""><tt class="">I keep the /48 request in mind
                  for my next interaction with their service, because I
                  have many things to ask.<br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">I suppose they will ask me, in
                  return, if I already spent the 2^61 addresses they
                  already gave me.</tt></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        This is IPv4think. In the IPv6 world, the intent is to provide
        large blocks to avoid future need to renumber and routing table
        pollution.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Noted the IPv4think.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Alex</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:AC9B4576-1F1F-49CA-AE62-066C2CBDC2E4@delong.com">
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Owen</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><tt class="">Alex</tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class=""><br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class=""><br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">PS:<br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">For information, see below an
                  annotated copy of the GUI listing the form of the 8
                  prefixes I see in GUI on CPE.</tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">One may notice things to complain
                  about: the use of ff:fe in the LL, the way they call
                  it 'Prefix Delegation' without using DHCPv6-PD and the
                  optional firewall IPv6 activation (off by default -
                  they dream :-)</tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class="">You may understand why I say I
                  have many things to ask them.</tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class=""><br class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><tt class=""><span
                    id="cid:part1.CC1568DF.6695AE4C@gmail.com">&lt;mohkmddlfcdkakja.png&gt;</span><br
                    class="">
                </tt></p>
              <p class=""><br class="">
              </p>
              <p class=""><br class="">
              </p>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:6ABAC3D7-30EA-4ECD-8B5F-A04309C208CE@delong.com"
                class="">
                <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Owen

</pre>
                <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Oct 30, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:



Le 30/10/2019 à 15:27, Radu-Adrian Feurdean a écrit :
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Thu, Oct 24, 2019, at 11:20, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
</pre>
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">In particular, the home networks scenario is very appropriate.
First, I must say that the home network that I use uses a fixed
/56 allocated by my ISP.  In this, the prefix never changes, and it
is not obtained by DHCPv6-PD - it is guaranteed by contract signed
by hand. Such a case could be mentioned, as not being a problem described in this draft.
</pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">If you are talking about residential service (not business/enterprise-class), I would like to know who your service provider is.
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">(my correction: I am not at all good at bit fiddling, sorry.  What I get
at home is a /60, I think, not a /56.  Because the CPE GUI proposes me
to split it into 8 /64s).

YEs, it is at home, probably you mean it is residential.  The payment is
a flat 35eur/month.  No special QoS commitments from them, other than a
'noise level' of 55dbm due to the length of the line.

The service provider is Free. ('Free' is its name; it was the first
callable at gratuitous phone numbers when all others requested a payment
in exchange; later they were the first to offer flat rates when the
others were per-connection time; because of that it called itself so).

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I must say that this kind of software (request a prefix with DHCPv6-PD, form sub-prefixes, and put them in RAs on the other interfaces) does not exist as open source or some other available package.
</pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dibbler-client does that by default. Once the delegated prefix (shorter than /64) is obtained, a /64 from that prefix is assigned to
each interface. With proper radvd.conf configuration (prefix ::/64),
RAs will be sent for those prefixes.
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I did not know.  The difficulty I talked about is to maintain what's in
that radvd.conf in sync with what is dhcpd.conf.  Maybe some software
packages already do it.

Also, because you talk about deriving /64s out of /56: I am not sure
there is a standard way to do it.  Maybe dibbler does it, but I doubt it
is the best way.

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">A lot (?? most ??) of CPEs implementing DHCPv6-PD client do this in some form or another. Some do this automatically (take prefixes and assign them to interfaces), other need manual configuration (n-th prefix go to interface ZZZ).
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">It's good to know.

But again, I doubt these CPEs derive prefixes in the manner that _I_
want it.

For example, I want the /60 to be derived into one /64 and a single
other set of /64s.  I dont want the /60 to be derived into 8 /64s.

I do that to help aggregation and speed up the forwarding process.

Other times I might want to derive that /60 differently.

I dont think there is a standard way to do it.

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Because of that, I am surprised that you call it 'the most common deployment scenario'.  Is this a scenario that is _expected_ to be
'common'?
</pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">"Expected enough" to warrant a device to be disqualified as "CPE that
supports IPv6" if it doesn't work this way. In an ISP environment.
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Well.

A CPE that supports IPv6 should run DHCPv6.  A CLient and a Server?
Both?  Just one?

How does CPE propagate the prefixes learned with its CLient to its Server?

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I would like to request addition of two other scenarios:
- an IoT scenario, in which an IoR Router connects several sensors
to the Internet.  For example, an IoT Router is deployed in a box
at a traffic lights.  The IoT device is the Traffic Lights Controller connected on Ethernet to the IoT Router.  The IoT Router
is connected on 4G.
- a vehicular networks scenario: the On-Board Unit is deployed in a
car. This OBU has a 4G interface and an Ethernet interface. There
are several computers in the car that need IPv6 addresses.
</pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Like : you have a mobile phone on a network doing IPv6+NAT64,
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">My CPE is not doing NAT64, I think.

I dont want NAT64.

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">you pout it in tethering/mobile-hotspot mode, and connect several other devices (usually laptops) to that hotspot - they all get IPv6 addresses (in the same single /64 that the phone obtained via SLAAC or something else). It is clear that getting a /56 (even a /60 or /62
would do it) via DHCPv6-PD would be a nicer solution, but when your
mobile device runs android....
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Well.  Android is good in many places and for many goals.

I agree that tethering/mobile-hotspot mode is a good solution in certain
circumstances, like sharing one's smartphone connection to tablets nearby.

However, tethering in IPv6 ('64share' RFC) has some drawbacks: (1) it
does not support more than the WiFi tethered to the cellular (doesnt
support an additional subnet like Ethernet) and (2) the incoming
interface must be cellular (cant be another wifi).

In a car, one has a WiFi hotspot but also lots of Ethernets and CANs.
It's not possible to use 64share to accomodate all that.

Hence, there DHCPv6-PD is not just a nicer solution - it is a requirement.

Other than cars, even at home, one may want a DHCPv6-PD Server on the
CPE for similar reasons.

If one wants to run tethering on a device at home that has no cellular
connection (e.g. a WiFi&lt;-&gt;USB, or a USB&lt;-&gt;Ethernet device) to extend to
other devices then one cant use tethering ('64share'), must use DHCPv6-PD.

Alex


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</pre>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
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        </blockquote>
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      <br class="">
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 new access from Windows to Google: display of a critical security alert
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Le 31/10/2019 à 15:32, Owen DeLong a écrit :
>
>
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:25 AM, Alexandre Petrescu 
>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Google alerted me a few days ago during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I 
>> browsed it with a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although 
>> many times previously with IPv4.
>>
>>
> Since I don’t speak French, it’s hard to interpret the error message 
> and I can’t paste the contents of an image into google translate.
>
>> Incidentally, the address my Windows used was an address delivered by 
>> DHCPv6. Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet 
>> representation, the '::' appears before the last two hextets 
>> (X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address where the double colon 
>> appears quasi always before the last _four_ hextets.
>>
>>
> Google can’t tell how you got the address. The position of the :: is 
> irrelevant. This is simply an artifact of the UI in question. Any 
> address which contains contiguous hextets of all zeroes (e.g. 0:0:0) 
> may abbreviate one such group of hextets to ::.
>
> Example: 2001:d8b:0:0:53a2:0:0:1 can be written as:
> 2001:db8::53a2:0:0:1
> 2001:db8:0:0:53a2::1
>
> All three of the above expressions represent the same exact 128-bit 
> address.


Well I never seen an IPv6 address that is SLAAC'ed and has so many 
leftmost 0s.

But I agree with the principle you say.


>> I am trying to understand why Google complained wiht such a critical 
>> security alert.
>>
> Hard to say. Is the security alert about your address or is it about 
> the site you were trying to visit?


It popped up when I tried to visit ipv6.google.com with firefox most 
recent.  But I guess it tried first to sign in on my Google account, or 
something like that.  They should know what they tried to do with my 
connection.  What I know is that it did not deserve such a security alert.

> If you can provide an English translation of the message, it might be 
> possible to provide better advice.

Manual translation is hard.  See automated translation below. The 
original html (so one can copy paste), and the result of a button click 
on 'Info' button on that page, are attached.


> Access to your account by a suspicious application has been blocked
> alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com
> Google has prevented anyone from signing in to your account using an 
> app that does not belong to Google. If it was not you, it means that 
> someone else knows your password. We advise you to modify it immediately.
> 
> Unrecognized device
> 
> 17 minutes ago
> 
> Near "City, France"
> 2a01: X: Y: ce10 :: b4cc: 8eb9 (IP address)
> Have you recently been unable to sign in to your Google Account?

>
>> - is it because the address was a DHCP address rather than SLAAC?
>>
> No. Google can’t tell how the address was assigned. It’s just another 
> 128 bit number from Google’s perspective.
>
>> - it is because I connect from an address they have never seen before?
>>
> Without being able to decipher the error message, it’s hard to say.
>>
>> - is it because it is the first time I connect to them by IPv6 on 
>> this computer?
>>
> Not likely.
>>
>> - is it because when I connect with IPv6 to them I keep changing the 
>> IPv6 address (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because behind NAT)?
>>
> Not likely.


Is it because https on IPv6 might not work as well as on IPv4?

Alex


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  </head>
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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/10/2019 à 15:32, Owen DeLong a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:7649D02C-9252-4F5E-B195-B213F299F6C1@delong.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br class="">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:25 AM, Alexandre Petrescu
            &lt;<a href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;
            wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">Google alerted me a few days ago
                    during my DHCPv6 experiments, when I browsed it with
                    a Windows computer using IPv6 first time, although
                    many times previously with IPv4.</font></font></p>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Since I don’t speak French, it’s hard to interpret the error
        message and I can’t paste the contents of an image into google
        translate.</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">Incidentally, the address my
                    Windows used was an address delivered by DHCPv6. 
                    Being DHCPv6 is visible in its format: in the hextet
                    representation, the '::' appears before the last two
                    hextets (X::b4cc:8eb9) as opposed to a SLAAC address
                    where the double colon appears quasi always before
                    the last _four_ hextets.</font></font></p>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Google can’t tell how you got the address. The position of the
        :: is irrelevant. This is simply an artifact of the UI in
        question. Any address which contains contiguous hextets of all
        zeroes (e.g. 0:0:0) may abbreviate one such group of hextets to
        ::.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Example: 2001:d8b:0:0:53a2:0:0:1 can be written as:</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span>2001:db8::53a2:0:0:1</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span>2001:db8:0:0:53a2::1</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>All three of the above expressions represent the same exact
        128-bit address.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Well I never seen an IPv6 address that is SLAAC'ed and has so
      many leftmost 0s.</p>
    <p>But I agree with the principle you say.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:7649D02C-9252-4F5E-B195-B213F299F6C1@delong.com">
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">I am trying to understand why
                    Google complained wiht such a critical security
                    alert.<br class="">
                  </font></font></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div>Hard to say. Is the security alert about your address or is
          it about the site you were trying to visit?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>It popped up when I tried to visit ipv6.google.com with firefox
      most recent.  But I guess it tried first to sign in on my Google
      account, or something like that.  They should know what they tried
      to do with my connection.  What I know is that it did not deserve
      such a security alert.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:7649D02C-9252-4F5E-B195-B213F299F6C1@delong.com">
      <div>
        <div>If you can provide an English translation of the message,
          it might be possible to provide better advice.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Manual translation is hard.  See automated translation below. 
      The original html (so one can copy paste), and the result of a
      button click on 'Info' button on that page, are attached.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>
      <blockquote type="cite"><span class="tlid-translation translation"
          lang="en"><span title="" class="">Access to your account by a
            suspicious application has been blocked</span><br>
          <span title=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com</a></span><br>
          <span title="">Google has prevented anyone from signing in to
            your account using an app that does not belong to Google.</span>
          <span title="">If it was not you, it means that someone else
            knows your password.</span> <span title="">We advise you to
            modify it immediately.</span><br>
          <span title=""></span><br>
          <span title="">Unrecognized device</span><br>
          <span title=""></span><br>
          <span title="">17 minutes ago</span><br>
          <span title=""></span><br>
          <span title="">Near "City, France"</span><br>
          <span title="">2a01: X: Y: ce10 :: b4cc: 8eb9 (IP address)</span><br>
          <span title="">Have you recently been unable to sign in to
            your Google Account?</span></span></blockquote>
      <br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:7649D02C-9252-4F5E-B195-B213F299F6C1@delong.com">
      <div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New"> </font></font></p>
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">- is it because the address was a
                    DHCP address rather than SLAAC?</font></font></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div>No. Google can’t tell how the address was assigned. It’s
          just another 128 bit number from Google’s perspective.</div>
        <br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">- it is because I connect from an
                    address they have never seen before?</font></font></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Without being able to decipher the error message, it’s hard to
        say.<br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">- is it because it is the first
                    time I connect to them by IPv6 on this computer?</font></font></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Not likely.<br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""><font class="" size="-1"><font class=""
                    face="Courier New">- is it because when I connect 
                    with IPv6 to them I keep changing the IPv6 address
                    (as opposed to IPv4 is always the same because
                    behind NAT)?<br class="">
                  </font></font></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        Not likely.<br class="">
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Is it because https on IPv6 might not work as well as on IPv4?</p>
    <p>Alex</p>
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From: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 23:09:44 +0530
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A broken promise - "You said PD Prefix Valid Lifetime is going to be X" (Re: SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds)
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+1

The problem I feel is mainly because of the the middle boxes sitting
between the devices which are using the prefix and the one who delegated
the prefixes.  I believe in most of the deployed implementations like the
BNG or any DHC server will have a record of the prefixes being delegated
and lifetimes will be honored till lease time expires.  As a matter of fact
in the cases listed, prefixes are be valid for the given lifetimes at both
the device and the delegating router.  Just because the CPE got rebooted or
lost the context of the prefixes, the middle boxes deprecating or
suggesting a whole set of new prefixes towards the devices might not be the
solution to the actual problem.

Yours,
Naveen.


On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 at 05:09, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 22:02, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
> >
> <snip>
>
> > In the case when a requesting router loses a prefix, it can of course
> signal that to the hosts as proposed in Fernando's draft. But that doesn't
> solve the general problem, and I'm skeptical to using addressing as a
> reachability signal. E.g. if the CPE's upstream link flaps, is that enough
> to trigger deprecation of the prefix? Of course it shouldn't.
> >
>
> Exactly. Transient network faults are supposed to be survived - that's
> why TCP makes quite a number of attempts at re-transmitting when
> packet loss occurs, rather than just immediately terminating the
> connection.
>
> When an ISP "flash renumbers" a customer what's really happening is
> that the customer's network layer point of attachment to the network
> is being changed - the customer is being abruptly disconnected, moved
> and re-connected. Possibly that is easy to overlook because the
> customers physical location and their physical link to the network
> doesn't change.
>
> I think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD prefix's
> Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix
> with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise by
> abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expected
> to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
> > Ole
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1<div><br></div><div>The problem I feel is mainly because=
 of the the middle boxes sitting between the devices which are using the pr=
efix and the one who delegated the prefixes.=C2=A0 I believe in most of the=
 deployed implementations like the BNG or any DHC server will have a record=
 of the prefixes being delegated and lifetimes will be honored till lease t=
ime expires.=C2=A0=20

As a matter=C2=A0of fact in the cases listed, prefixes are be valid for the=
 given lifetimes at both the device and the delegating router.=C2=A0 Just b=
ecause the CPE got rebooted or lost the context of the prefixes, the middle=
 boxes deprecating or suggesting a whole set of new prefixes towards the de=
vices might not be the solution to the actual problem.</div><div><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"=
gmail_signature">Yours,<br>Naveen.</div></div><br></div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 31 Oct 2019=
 at 05:09, Mark Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzz=
smith@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 22:02, Ole Troan &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
&gt; In the case when a requesting router loses a prefix, it can of course =
signal that to the hosts as proposed in Fernando&#39;s draft. But that does=
n&#39;t solve the general problem, and I&#39;m skeptical to using addressin=
g as a reachability signal. E.g. if the CPE&#39;s upstream link flaps, is t=
hat enough to trigger deprecation of the prefix? Of course it shouldn&#39;t=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Exactly. Transient network faults are supposed to be survived - that&#39;s<=
br>
why TCP makes quite a number of attempts at re-transmitting when<br>
packet loss occurs, rather than just immediately terminating the<br>
connection.<br>
<br>
When an ISP &quot;flash renumbers&quot; a customer what&#39;s really happen=
ing is<br>
that the customer&#39;s network layer point of attachment to the network<br=
>
is being changed - the customer is being abruptly disconnected, moved<br>
and re-connected. Possibly that is easy to overlook because the<br>
customers physical location and their physical link to the network<br>
doesn&#39;t change.<br>
<br>
I think Ole observed that this is contrary to what the PD prefix&#39;s<br>
Valid Lifetime said would be the case. The ISP supplied a PD Prefix<br>
with a Valid Lifetime of X seconds, and then broke that promise by<br>
abruptly changing addressing before X seconds. ISPs should be expected<br>
to live up to their Valid Lifetime promises.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mark.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; Ole<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From nobody Thu Oct 31 11:48:10 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 19:37, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 06:06 Brian E Carpenter,
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 28-Oct-19 05:29, Fernando Gont wrote:
>     ...
>     > Robustness has a lot to do with being able to gracefully handle
>     the case
>     > when others screw up.
> 
> 
>     This. We can't make the world perfect, but we can make individual
>     components
>     that expect imperfection.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not what I said, as it is implying that I said there is no need
> for robustness.
> 
> Robustness suffers from the law of diminishing returns. At some point
> the cost to design and implement robustness exceeds the either the
> likelihood it will be needed or the benefit it returns if needs to be used.

Could you please argue against any specific text in our document?




> Sugar is sometimes poured into the fuel tanks of cars, which will
> destroy the engine. It is not common and is done maliciously. If
> robustness should be universal, does that mean car engines should be
> made impervious to sugar, at great expense to everybody, despite the
> need for that robustness being rare?
> 
> Some ISPs are shifting the cost and consequences of their design
> decision, which they can change, onto the IETF, CPE vendors and host
> implementers, and indirectly their customers'. Are they willing to pay
> these other parties to fix a problem that they are both causing and
> could fix themselves?

Is there anything that we are recommending CPEs to do that shouldn't be
there (anyway) to comply with the semantics of the protocols?

That said, I will repeat that the home network/cpe case is only one of
the scenarios in which this problem may be faced.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 01:48, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>> It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the administrator
>>> and the
>>> RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.
>>>
>>> With the following exception, I don’t advocate modifying this on the
>>> client
>>> side:
>>> +Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to specifically
>>> allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid
>>> lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
>>> this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.
>>
>> Could you please elaborate on this one?
> 
> I’m not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a specific
> call-out that
> even if the current behavior of ≤2 hours = 2 hours is to be preserved,
> there should
> be a special case for “0 seconds” which causes the prefix to be immediately
> deprecated with extreme prejudice.
> 
> Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing a prefix with a 0 second
> valid lifetime as an invalid prefix and immediately deprecate it from
> the interface
> if it is in use.

OK, so you do agree with the proposed change? (in
draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum, not in *this* document)




>>> I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to
>>> CPE and
>>> router behavior should be standardized and implemented.
>>>
>>>> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the valid
>>>> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that lack
>>>> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that do not
>>>> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After two
>>>> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
>>>
>>> In the crash scenarios you describe, you’re assuming a single router on
>>> the network or
>>> at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with no
>>> persistent
>>> memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a
>>> scenario,
>>> it seems to me that the following are also likely valid assumptions:
>>>
>>> +The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to demand.
>>> +The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably
>>> an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.
>>>
>>> However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those
>>> assumptions
>>> won’t hold true and we should not seek to solve this problem (which is
>>> generally
>>> applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of all of
>>> those
>>> other professionally administered environments.
>>
>> Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
>> upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
>> prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
>> improvement to what we have now.
> 
> I don’t like this idea because I can think of some scenarios where you
> may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the prefix in the
> same time frame that router B has not sent an additional RA containing
> the prefix, but it will do so in its next RA.

Maybe it wasn't clear in the I-D, but the basic idea is:
If you receive multiple RAs from router A that do not advertise the
prefix, then you disassociate such prefix with router A. If nobody else
is advertising the prefix, you'd deprecate it. If other routers are
advertising it, this would not change the status quo of the prefix wrt
such other routers.


> There is no requirement for all routers on the same link to provide the
> same set of PIOs, nor are they required to use the same advertisement
> timers.

Agreed. Please see above.






>>> In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their
>>> previous values
>>> for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect and the
>>> announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also indicate that
>>> the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer be
>>> considered on-link.
>>
>> Not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate?
> 
> Sure… In section 3.2.1 of your document, you advocate that if the previously
> valid PIOs were set A=1 and/or L=1, then those values of the A and L bits
> should be preserved in the RAs sent to deprecate them.
> 
> My argument is that since you are attempting to make this a prefix that
> hosts
> will no longer autoconfigure (A) and will no longer consider on-link
> (L), that
> in reality, regardless of the previous state of the A and L bits in the RAs
> announcing the prefix in a valid PIO, the new RAs since the prefix has been
> deprecated should be sent with A=0, L=0 in order to signal the host
> that this prefix should not be auto configured and should no longer be
> considered on-link.

You really make a good point. I will go through RFC4861 and see what's
the current expected behaviour in such case.





>>> Is there some unfortunate widely deployed behavior that interacts poorly
>>> with setting A and L to 0 for these previously valid prefixes?
>>>
>>> Finally, An editorial note… In Section 3, you state “Finally, Section
>>> 2.5 analyzes…”
>>> I believe this is intended to be a reference to section 3.2.2.
>>
>> Nope. Section 3.2.2 talks about the interaction between dhcpv6-pd and
>> slaac. BUt it is section 2.5 that discusses other considerations for
>> dynamic/stable prefixes. For example, stable prefixes are not nice for
>> privacy.
> 
> 
> Fair enough, but in that case, I don’t think I would put it after the
> description of section 3.2,
> nor would I use the word “Finally” as a lead-in to a back-reference.

Will tweak the text accordingly.

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:15:19 +0100
From: "Radu-Adrian Feurdean" <ietf-wgs@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Thu, Oct 31, 2019, at 15:16, Owen DeLong wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@=
gmail.com> wrote:
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Le 31/10/2019 =C3=A0 04:05, Owen DeLong a =C3=A9crit :
> >> 8 /64s is a /61.
> > Right, I guess 8 /64s is a /61 because 2^3 is 8, and 3+61 is 64.
>=20
> >=20
> Well, a /60 would include not only ce10..ce17, but also ce18, ce19,=20=

> ce1a, ce1b, ce1c, ce1d, ce1e, and ce1f.

They DO provision a /60 per customer, they just keep half of it for thei=
r own use. The separate STB box was known to make use of it at some mome=
nt on the past. It may still be the case... probably...=20

> 256 /64s is a /56.
> You should be getting 65,536 /64s (a /48) and if I were you, I would=20=

> complain to any ISP that gave me less.I=20

Legacy of their past 64rd deployment.=20

--=20
R-A.F.


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hello, Ted,


On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
> If we “fix” this by accommodating what they do, does that help, or
> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?

Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
actually help IPv6 deployment?




> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that’s deprecated
> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn’t take
> very long.  

~9 minutes, IIRC.


> And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the
> link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the old
> prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that
> new prefix, not the old one.

That's not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred
Lifetime affect address selection.




> I think Fernando’s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but
> shortening the minimum really doesn’t—it just opens up an opportunity
> for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the
> local network and break everything all at once.

The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):
you enforce FHS, or you don't.




> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs
> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
> something that’s a real improvement?

Every piece helps.



> First of all, fix CPEs so that they definitely support clean
> deprecation of prefixes using PD.

But robustness cannot rely on any of these specific bits.


>  Second, fix RA so that it’s
> non-repudiable by a device that doesn’t have the secret key.
> 
> SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve
> a too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the
> basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be used
> to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private
> key.

What's the practical difference between that, an a network that supports
RA-Guard?



> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
> prefix.   If not, ignore it.

In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did you
trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
deprecating the prefix?

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 10:54, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com
> <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes
>> advertised using
>> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale
>> prefixes
>> after a reboot.
> 
> Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us assume
> prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then when the CPE
> comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the prefix it had
> previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still valid.  This can
> be handled in infrastructure—the ISP edge router should know whether the
> prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be advertising a route
> for it.   If it is not still valid, then the CPE router should attempt
> to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server (possibly both messages
> would).

That assues the CPE has stored the previously-leased prefix on stable
storage -- which does not need to be the case. Hence the related text in
our I-D.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 27/10/19 01:48, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>> It is worth noting that these values are tunable by the =
administrator
>>>> and the
>>>> RFC suggested defaults should never be a hard-coded value.
>>>>=20
>>>> With the following exception, I don=E2=80=99t advocate modifying =
this on the
>>>> client
>>>> side:
>>>> +Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 should be amended to specifically
>>>> allow the immediate deprecation of a prefix by sending a valid
>>>> lifetime of 0 seconds. Hosts should be required to honor
>>>> this as a signal that the prefix is no longer valid.
>>>=20
>>> Could you please elaborate on this one?
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a =
specific
>> call-out that
>> even if the current behavior of =E2=89=A42 hours =3D 2 hours is to be =
preserved,
>> there should
>> be a special case for =E2=80=9C0 seconds=E2=80=9D which causes the =
prefix to be immediately
>> deprecated with extreme prejudice.
>>=20
>> Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing a prefix with a 0 =
second
>> valid lifetime as an invalid prefix and immediately deprecate it from
>> the interface
>> if it is in use.
>=20
> OK, so you do agree with the proposed change? (in
> draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum, not in *this* document)

=46rom the context of my thinking at the time of writing the original =
reply,
=E2=80=9Cthis document=E2=80=9D referred to draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum. =
Apolgies
for my lack of clarity as you have apparently interpreted it =
differently.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>> I do think that generally speaking, your proposed modifications to
>>>> CPE and
>>>> router behavior should be standardized and implemented.
>>>>=20
>>>>> A better mitigation is to affect the preferred and possibly the =
valid
>>>>> lifetimes in response to consecutive RAs from the same router that =
lack
>>>>> the original (stale) prefix. e.g., after two consecutive RAs that =
do not
>>>>> contain the existing prefix, reduce the preferred lifetime. After =
two
>>>>> additional RAs, reduce the valid lifetime.
>>>>=20
>>>> In the crash scenarios you describe, you=E2=80=99re assuming a =
single router on
>>>> the network or
>>>> at least only one router announcing the prefix(es) in question with =
no
>>>> persistent
>>>> memory of the prefixes it was announcing across a reboot. In such a
>>>> scenario,
>>>> it seems to me that the following are also likely valid =
assumptions:
>>>>=20
>>>> +The network has significant excess bandwidth compared to demand.
>>>> +The small overhead of frequent RAs and short lifetimes is probably
>>>> an acceptable tradeoff in this environment.
>>>>=20
>>>> However, there are lots of other scenarios in the world where those
>>>> assumptions
>>>> won=E2=80=99t hold true and we should not seek to solve this =
problem (which is
>>>> generally
>>>> applicable to residential and SMB environments) at the expense of =
all of
>>>> those
>>>> other professionally administered environments.
>>>=20
>>> Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
>>> upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
>>> prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
>>> improvement to what we have now.
>>=20
>> I don=E2=80=99t like this idea because I can think of some scenarios =
where you
>> may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the prefix in =
the
>> same time frame that router B has not sent an additional RA =
containing
>> the prefix, but it will do so in its next RA.
>=20
> Maybe it wasn't clear in the I-D, but the basic idea is:
> If you receive multiple RAs from router A that do not advertise the
> prefix, then you disassociate such prefix with router A. If nobody =
else
> is advertising the prefix, you'd deprecate it. If other routers are
> advertising it, this would not change the status quo of the prefix wrt
> such other routers.

That=E2=80=99s definitely not how I interpreted the I-D and I would =
strongly encourage
you to review and update the I-D for clarity in this area. I=E2=80=99m =
actually still not
100% convinced that this is correct behavior. It also places additional =
burdens
on hosts to track all routers associated with a given prefix rather than =
merely
tracking candidate default gateways, RIO data, and one set of prefix =
timers
utilizing the most recently received timer refreshes.

>> There is no requirement for all routers on the same link to provide =
the
>> same set of PIOs, nor are they required to use the same advertisement
>> timers.
>=20
> Agreed. Please see above.

With the above clarification, I think it can be done and is less likely =
to break
things. However, it does place a significant additional tracking burden =
on the
host which I=E2=80=99m not entirely convinced is a desirable situation. =
Especially in the
case of a resource-constrained host which is using SLAAC to avoid the =
overhead
of DHCP.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>> In section 3.2.1, you advocate setting the A and L bits to their
>>>> previous values
>>>> for prefixes which are being deprecated. IMHO, this is incorrect =
and the
>>>> announcements calling for immediate deprecation should also =
indicate that
>>>> the prefix should no longer be auto-configured and should no longer =
be
>>>> considered on-link.
>>>=20
>>> Not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate?
>>=20
>> Sure=E2=80=A6 In section 3.2.1 of your document, you advocate that if =
the previously
>> valid PIOs were set A=3D1 and/or L=3D1, then those values of the A =
and L bits
>> should be preserved in the RAs sent to deprecate them.
>>=20
>> My argument is that since you are attempting to make this a prefix =
that
>> hosts
>> will no longer autoconfigure (A) and will no longer consider on-link
>> (L), that
>> in reality, regardless of the previous state of the A and L bits in =
the RAs
>> announcing the prefix in a valid PIO, the new RAs since the prefix =
has been
>> deprecated should be sent with A=3D0, L=3D0 in order to signal the =
host
>> that this prefix should not be auto configured and should no longer =
be
>> considered on-link.
>=20
> You really make a good point. I will go through RFC4861 and see what's
> the current expected behaviour in such case.

Thanks!

Owen


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On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
>> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
>> If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does =
that help, or
>> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>=20
> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
> actually help IPv6 deployment?

Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not saying we shouldn=E2=80=
=99t do things to improve the situation.   I am saying that we should be =
strategic about it.

>> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s =
deprecated
>> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=99t =
take
>> very long. =20
>=20
> ~9 minutes, IIRC.

Should be 90 seconds.


>> And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the
>> link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the old
>> prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that
>> new prefix, not the old one.
>=20
> That's not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred
> Lifetime affect address selection.

Okay, there=E2=80=99s something to fix.  Why would these not affect =
source address selection?

>> I think Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, =
but
>> shortening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens =
up an opportunity
>> for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the
>> local network and break everything all at once.
>=20
> The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):
> you enforce FHS, or you don't.

What is =E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?

>> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs
>> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
>> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
>> something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?
>=20
> Every piece helps.

Right, but if the effort involved in two different options differs by =
epsilon, you should always choose the option that produces the better =
outcome, shouldn=E2=80=99t you?

>> Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s
>> non-repudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t have the secret key.
>>=20
>> SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve
>> a too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the
>> basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be used
>> to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private
>> key.
>=20
> What's the practical difference between that, an a network that =
supports
> RA-Guard?

On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference, =
but RA guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed in the past, =
will actually make the network not work.   RA guard requires an active =
administrator.   So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re talking about isn=E2=80=99t=
 relevant.


>> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
>> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
>> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
>> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>=20
> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did =
you
> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
> deprecating the prefix?

In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network.   You hope =
that the RA you get =E2=80=9Cfrom the router=E2=80=9D is actually from =
the router.


--Apple-Mail=_4BF377F3-88B4-41BB-AD1F-EDBD1E762866
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 27/10/19 09:02, =
Ted Lemon wrote:<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Indeed, this would also not actually solve the =
problem. &nbsp;&nbsp;At present,<br class=3D"">the ISPs are doing =
something that is out of spec and causes problems.<br class=3D"">If we =
=E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does that =
help, or<br class=3D"">does it just encourage them to continue doing =
it?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Did happy eyeballs =
encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it<br class=3D"">actually =
help IPv6 deployment?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not =
saying we shouldn=E2=80=99t do things to improve the situation. &nbsp; I =
am saying that we should be strategic about it.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What should be happening =
on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s deprecated<br class=3D"">is =
that TCP connections should be timing out. &nbsp;&nbsp;This doesn=E2=80=99=
t take<br class=3D"">very long. &nbsp;<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">~9 minutes, IIRC.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Should be =
90 seconds.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">And if there is a new prefix being advertised =
on the<br class=3D"">link, that address should have a valid lifetime =
newer than the old<br class=3D"">prefix, meaning that the next TCP =
connection should come from that<br class=3D"">new prefix, not the old =
one.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's not correct. =
Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred<br class=3D"">Lifetime =
affect address selection.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Okay, there=E2=80=99s something to fix. &nbsp;Why would =
these not affect source address selection?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I think Fernando=E2=80=99s=
 plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but<br class=3D"">shortening =
the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens up an =
opportunity<br class=3D"">for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out =
death packets to the<br class=3D"">local network and break everything =
all at once.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The reality with =
ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):<br class=3D"">you =
enforce FHS, or you don't.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
 class=3D""></div>What is =E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If you Really Really =
want to be able to have the routers send out RAs<br class=3D"">that =
deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to<br =
class=3D"">upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask =
for<br class=3D"">something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Every piece helps.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Right, but =
if the effort involved in two different options differs by epsilon, you =
should always choose the option that produces the better outcome, =
shouldn=E2=80=99t you?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""> Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s<br =
class=3D"">non-repudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t have the =
secret key.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">SEND does this, sort of. =
&nbsp;Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve<br class=3D"">a too-big =
problem and does it using obsolete technology. &nbsp;&nbsp;But the<br =
class=3D"">basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can =
be used<br class=3D"">to validate that the RA was signed with the =
corresponding private<br class=3D"">key.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">What's the practical difference between that, an a network =
that supports<br class=3D"">RA-Guard?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>On a =
network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference, but RA =
guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed in the past, will =
actually make the network not work. &nbsp; RA guard requires an active =
administrator. &nbsp; So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re talking about =
isn=E2=80=99t relevant.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">When =
another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;If<br class=3D"">so, it came from the same router, and can =
be trusted to update<br class=3D"">whatever information that router =
sent, including flash-deprecating a<br class=3D"">prefix. &nbsp;&nbsp;If =
not, ignore it.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">In the =
non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did you<br =
class=3D"">trust the local router to configure your network, but not =
for<br class=3D"">deprecating the prefix?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network. =
&nbsp; You <i class=3D"">hope</i>&nbsp;that the RA you get&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cf=
rom the router=E2=80=9D is actually from the router.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_4BF377F3-88B4-41BB-AD1F-EDBD1E762866--


From nobody Thu Oct 31 12:44:41 2019
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 12:05, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> Indeed, this would also
>> not actually solve the problem.   At present, the ISPs are doing
>> something that is out of spec and causes problems.   If we fix this
>> by accommodating what they do, does that help, or does it just
>> encourage them to continue doing it?
> 
> At the moment, ISPs are doing something that sort of works in IPv4 because
> of NAT. It causes significant issues in IPv6.

Note that this is *one* of the network scenarios that may lead to this
problematic scenario.



> Of course, can we can tell ISPs that they are doing it wrong and that they
> should not deploy IPv6 until they have fixed their networks.
> 
> I would like to have IPv6 now. And if that requires some tweaks to deal with
> broken behavior then so be it.

Indeed. Besides, the patch increases robustness overall.


> 
>> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out
>> RAs that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here,
>> to upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
>> something thats a real improvement?
> 
> Because bundling features is a good way to ensure that nothing gets done.

Indeed.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 14:14, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com
> <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>> If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to 
>> talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything for
>> flash renumbering. From an operational point of view, RA-guard is much
>> more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is any
>> need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need
>> to discuss SEND we could do that separately.
> 
> I think you missed my point.  You can’t do flash renumbering by
> advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that will be
> ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it would be a very
> effective DoS vector. 

As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I should say
that you trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo
apt-get install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a bunch
of other DoS attacks that an attacker can perform).

>From an attacker's point of view, you just need one that works.

-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 16:35, Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 10:14 , Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com
>> <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg
>> <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>>> If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to 
>>> talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything for
>>> flash renumbering. From an operational point of view, RA-guard is much
>>> more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is any
>>> need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a need
>>> to discuss SEND we could do that separately.
>>
>> I think you missed my point.  You can’t do flash renumbering by
>> advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that will
>> be ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it would be a
>> very effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to be able to flash
>> deprecate a route, you need some way to validate that the deprecation
>> is coming from the same source as the route.   Hence my suggested
>> “limited SEND”.
>>
>> Limited SEND would not be hard to implement.   Yes, it would be
>> marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept flash
>> deprecation of prefixes.   But nobody with any sense is going to
>> implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to
>> work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn’t create a
>> massive attack vector.
> 
> It’s only a DOS vector if the attacker is already on-LAN.
> 
> I recognize that there are environments where that is expected behavior
> (e.g. Coffee Shop Wifi, University networks, etc.),but
> it’s not the case for the average residential CPE and residential LAN
> segments.
> 
> In the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts to
> be likely to be on LAN, I don’t think I’d be using
> SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most likely, I’d want
> stateful DHCP in such instances.

You can do SLAAC as long as you do FHS. At which point the issue raised
by Ted is a non-issue.


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:47:18 -0400
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Cc: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>, v6ops@ietf.org
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <m1iOk6q-0000IyC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <855496CB-BF7E-41E6-B273-41C4AA771E41@fugue.com> <5e0d1da1-4933-069c-68f6-9aa360106582@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:41 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
> As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I should =
say
> that you trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo
> apt-get install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a =
bunch
> of other DoS attacks that an attacker can perform).

As an end user, I don=E2=80=99t have this experience.   If someone is =
spamming my network with RAs, I can find out who and disconnect them.   =
A DoS attack based on massive quantities of RAs is a lot different than =
an attack that shuts my network off with one multicast.=20


--Apple-Mail=_CE443863-59E8-437B-BC98-04D662A5AD41
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Oct 31, 2019, at 3:41 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I =
should say</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that you =
trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">apt-get =
install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a =
bunch</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">of other DoS =
attacks that an attacker can =
perform).</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">As=
 an end user, I don=E2=80=99t have this experience. &nbsp; If someone is =
spamming my network with RAs, I can find out who and disconnect them. =
&nbsp; A DoS attack based on massive quantities of RAs is a lot =
different than an attack that shuts my network off with one =
multicast.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <325e84aa-1703-e1ce-55a6-8790ceb7aff0@si6networks.com> <4C6471D4-0F5B-49EE-A38A-22AB2B87DA7E@fugue.com> <CE3BC775-8B50-43E6-8145-3CAB60F6AB4E@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> RA Guard could be default configured on switches with particular =
default =E2=80=9Cplug router in here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, =
eliminating the need for an active administrator. This could be a useful =
specification in the HomeNet documents, perhaps.

This would be disastrous.   It pretty much makes permissionless =
networking impossible in exchange for solving a security problem no-one =
has.


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Oct 31, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; =
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style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RA Guard could be default =
configured on switches with particular default =E2=80=9Cplug router in =
here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, eliminating the need for an active =
administrator. This could be a useful specification in the HomeNet =
documents, perhaps.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">This would be disastrous. &nbsp; It pretty much makes =
permissionless networking impossible in exchange for solving a security =
problem no-one has.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_83EDF94F-17F0-4140-82D0-2C8370CCCEEB--


From nobody Thu Oct 31 12:58:44 2019
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 19:03, Bernie Volz (volz) wrote:
>>I don’t know of a single DHCPv6 server which operates that way
> currently. Can you point to a working example?
> 
>  
> 
> That is actually the RFC8415 specified behavior … the DHCP server I work
> on (Cisco Prime Network Registrar) will do this if steps are taken to
> “invalidate” a lease.
> 
>  
> 
> See RFC 8415, Section 18.3.4:
> 
>  
> 
>    If the server finds that any of the addresses in the IA are not
> 
>    appropriate for the link to which the client is attached, the server
> 
>    returns the address to the client with lifetimes of 0.
> 
>  
> 
>    If the server finds that any of the delegated prefixes in the IA are
> 
>    not appropriate for the link to which the client is attached, the
> 
>    server returns the delegated prefix to the client with lifetimes
> 
>    of 0.

Doesn't the above imply that the client remembers the addresses?


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 27/10/19 19:52, Ole Troan wrote:
>>>> Note that we could change SLAAC to allow the lifetime of a
>>>> prefix to be set to zero, instead of having to wait for 2
>>>> hours. That might be an improvement but requires careful
>>>> analsysis.
>>> 
>>> Can you explain how operating a public service should work on
>>> this type of network?
>> 
>> Could you be more specific what you consider a 'public service' and
>> what you expect to break?
> 
> The (only) value (sic) of IPv6 to end-users is retoration of end to
> end connectivity at the network layer.

That's know how IPv6 is being deployed in many places. It's quite common
that the CPE implements a Diode firewall. And what's worse, the CPE
doesn't have the appropriate support in UPnP for punching holes in it.



> I challenge you to find in the "real world" of end-users many with
> much trust in the ad-based "you are the product" centralised services
> in the current Internet.

Isn't that how/why Google, Facebook, and others make money?



> IPv6 was meant to allow end-users to run
> decentralized services.
> 
> - hidden primary DNS - mail - web - home-automation - video
> conferencing - jabber
> 
> All of those have great open source software. To use Owen's
> paragraph: "I don’t know of a single server which operates that way
> currently. Can you point to a working example?"
> 
> Assuming all the moving parts required were updated to support flash
> renumbering (I have little proof they even support graceful
> renumbering), if the end-user cannot trust the lifetimes in the
> delegated prefix, DNS with TTL=1s is presumably the only choice?

I'm not saying you don't raise a valid question. However, in the context
of this discussion there's a difference between being able to graceully
handle the scenario when it happens, vs planning for it to happen
deterministically.

(FWIW, I have a bunch of services running behind NATs, where the
addresses get rotated. Yes, I do use small lifetimes (< 1 minute).
That's not uncommon nowadays, anyway)




>> What I described is basically what happens on IPv4 when a CPE uses
>> NAT and gets a new IPv4 address from the ISP.
> 
> If making IPv6 no better than IPv4 + NAT, then stick with IPv4 +
> NAT. IPv4 NAT scales very well as it turns out.

IPv6 could allow you to host services in a better way.

(In my example above, I just *can't* leverage IPv6 because of the
firewall and CPEs with no UPnP support for IPv6)




>> Flash renumbering is far from ideal, but a reality on the current
>> internet. Any application that is suitable for home use is expected
>> to deal with that scenario.
> 
> We don't need IPv6 to maintain the status quo.

We need IPv6 to actually work. There are networks nowadays in which it
is breaking badly. IN some cases it's preventing deployment. In others,
users are falling back to IPv4.


> 
>> Note that with automatic DNS updates, you can probably run a mail
>> server (or your personal 'cloud') on such a link. But that is not a
>> common use case at the moment.
> 
> And don't get me wrong, I'm all for making IPv6 addressing / onlink
> behaviour more robust. But not justified in this way that can be seen
> to allow for practices that removes any benefit of IPv6 over
> IPv4/NAT.

The benefits are in global addressing. As noted abouve, there are many
scenarios where "global connectivity" is worse for IPv6. Not that I like
it (but that doesn't change facts).

P.S.: I reiterate that the home network/cpe case is only *one* of the
scenarios where this problem may be faced.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, "Ted Lemon" <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hello, Ted,
>=20
>=20
> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
>> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
>> If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does =
that help, or
>> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>=20
> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
> actually help IPv6 deployment?

Considering these mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy.

It did both.

>> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s =
deprecated
>> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=99t =
take
>> very long. =20
>=20
> ~9 minutes, IIRC.

Somewhat variable, but yes, can be as long as ~15 minutes in some cases.

>> First of all, fix CPEs so that they definitely support clean
>> deprecation of prefixes using PD.
>=20
> But robustness cannot rely on any of these specific bits.

Perhaps not, but this is the lowest hanging fruit and the cleanest set =
of changes.

Certainly you have to admit that the proposed CPE changes would yield =
the greatest improvement
in robustness at the lowest cost of any of the proposed solutions in the =
I-D in question.

>> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
>> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
>> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
>> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>=20
> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did =
you
> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
> deprecating the prefix?

Trusting the local router to configure the network to add a previously =
non-operational host to the network has a somewhat different set of =
consequence for failure than trusting whatever on-link host wishes to =
tell you to effectively shut down your currently operating network =
connection.

Especially when you consider that such an announcement can be sent to =
the all nodes on link multicast address, effectively dropping them all =
at once.

I agree it=E2=80=99s not a huge difference, but, it is a difference and =
certainly the scope of the resulting problem can be much larger than the =
case of individual host configuration.

Owen



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:58:00 -0700
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Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com =
<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
>> RA Guard could be default configured on switches with particular =
default =E2=80=9Cplug router in here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, =
eliminating the need for an active administrator. This could be a useful =
specification in the HomeNet documents, perhaps.
>=20
> This would be disastrous.   It pretty much makes permissionless =
networking impossible in exchange for solving a security problem no-one =
has.
>=20
Huh?

How=E2=80=99s that?

If I have two default uplink ports on a switch and the default =
configuration on the switch is that those are the =E2=80=9Crouter=E2=80=9D=
 ports and everything else is treated as a =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D port =
for RA Guard on by default, how does that render anything =
=E2=80=9Cimpossible=E2=80=9D?

If you don=E2=80=99t want RA Guard, turn it off. It=E2=80=99s just a =
default setting.

If you want a different RA Guard configuration, the set it as you like.

I=E2=80=99m not proposing hard-coding anything. I=E2=80=99m proposing an =
RA-Guard friendly set of defaults that actually solve a common security =
problem in administrator-less networks, whether they=E2=80=99ve suffered =
from it yet or not.

Owen



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at =
3:47 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" =
class=3D"">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">RA Guard could be default configured on switches with =
particular default =E2=80=9Cplug router in here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, =
eliminating the need for an active administrator. This could be a useful =
specification in the HomeNet documents, =
perhaps.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">This would be disastrous. &nbsp; It pretty much makes =
permissionless networking impossible in exchange for solving a security =
problem no-one has.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div>Huh?<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">How=E2=80=99s that?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I have two default =
uplink ports on a switch and the default configuration on the switch is =
that those are the =E2=80=9Crouter=E2=80=9D ports and everything else is =
treated as a =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D port for RA Guard on by default, how =
does that render anything =E2=80=9Cimpossible=E2=80=9D?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you don=E2=80=99t =
want RA Guard, turn it off. It=E2=80=99s just a default =
setting.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
you want a different RA Guard configuration, the set it as you =
like.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m not proposing hard-coding anything. I=E2=80=99m proposing an RA-Guard =
friendly set of defaults that actually solve a common security problem =
in administrator-less networks, whether they=E2=80=99ve suffered from it =
yet or not.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Owen</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8144BBF7-782A-4D8C-9237-36464849A29C--


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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:47:42 -0700
In-Reply-To: <4C6471D4-0F5B-49EE-A38A-22AB2B87DA7E@fugue.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
References: <CAO42Z2yQ_6PT3nQrXGD-mKO1bjsW6V3jZ_2kNGC2x586EMiNZg@mail.gmail.com> <B53CE471-C6E8-4DC1-8A72-C6E23154544F@fugue.com> <325e84aa-1703-e1ce-55a6-8790ceb7aff0@si6networks.com> <4C6471D4-0F5B-49EE-A38A-22AB2B87DA7E@fugue.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/vIP3y4E_ueMeTFqqk2Wm-ytuQyw>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com =
<mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At =
present,
>>> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes =
problems.
>>> If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does =
that help, or
>>> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>>=20
>> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
>> actually help IPv6 deployment?
>=20
> Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not saying we =
shouldn=E2=80=99t do things to improve the situation.   I am saying that =
we should be strategic about it.
>=20
>>> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s =
deprecated
>>> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=99t =
take
>>> very long. =20
>>=20
>> ~9 minutes, IIRC.
>=20
> Should be 90 seconds.

That=E2=80=99s for the three-way handshake=E2=80=A6 For an existing =
established flow, it can be much MUCH longer.

>=20
>=20
>>> And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the
>>> link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the old
>>> prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that
>>> new prefix, not the old one.
>>=20
>> That's not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred
>> Lifetime affect address selection.
>=20
> Okay, there=E2=80=99s something to fix.  Why would these not affect =
source address selection?

Because there are other things that do which are much better reasons for =
address selection.

There are enough problems with address selection (especially on =
platforms like MacOS
where they=E2=80=99ve chosen to eliminate the ability to configure SAS) =
as it is. Adding this as an
additional variable (let alone making it override the other =
tie-breakers) is not, IMHO, an
actual improvement.

>>> I think Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, =
but
>>> shortening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens =
up an opportunity
>>> for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the
>>> local network and break everything all at once.
>>=20
>> The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the =
packets):
>> you enforce FHS, or you don't.
>=20
> What is =E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?

First Hop Security (e.g. RA Guard, SEND, etc.)

>>> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out =
RAs
>>> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
>>> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
>>> something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?
>>=20
>> Every piece helps.
>=20
> Right, but if the effort involved in two different options differs by =
epsilon, you should always choose the option that produces the better =
outcome, shouldn=E2=80=99t you?

Yes, but the better outcome must be defined not only in terms of the =
ideal end result if/when implemented, but also in terms of the =
probability of widespread implementation and the time delay between now =
and said wide deployment.

>>> Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s
>>> non-repudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t have the secret key.
>>>=20
>>> SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve
>>> a too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the
>>> basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be =
used
>>> to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private
>>> key.
>>=20
>> What's the practical difference between that, an a network that =
supports
>> RA-Guard?
>=20
> On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference, =
but RA guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed in the past, =
will actually make the network not work.   RA guard requires an active =
administrator.   So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re talking about isn=E2=80=99t=
 relevant.

RA Guard as implemented today in most existing platforms requires an =
active administrator.

RA Guard could be default configured on switches with particular default =
=E2=80=9Cplug router in here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, eliminating the =
need for an active administrator. This could be a useful specification =
in the HomeNet documents, perhaps.

>>> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   =
If
>>> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
>>> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
>>> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>>=20
>> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did =
you
>> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
>> deprecating the prefix?
>=20
> In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network.   You hope =
that the RA you get =E2=80=9Cfrom the router=E2=80=9D is actually from =
the router.

That doesn=E2=80=99t answer the question. It merely describes the model. =
The question was why is bind trust in a prefix deprecation message any =
worse than blind trust in a network configuration message.

Owen


--Apple-Mail=_67FE618F-39AA-4B9E-9732-0CEF8BDADE2F
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at =
3:21 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted =
Lemon wrote:<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Indeed, this would also not actually solve the =
problem. &nbsp;&nbsp;At present,<br class=3D"">the ISPs are doing =
something that is out of spec and causes problems.<br class=3D"">If we =
=E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does that =
help, or<br class=3D"">does it just encourage them to continue doing =
it?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Did happy eyeballs =
encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it<br class=3D"">actually =
help IPv6 deployment?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=
=99m not saying we shouldn=E2=80=99t do things to improve the situation. =
&nbsp; I am saying that we should be strategic about it.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What =
should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s =
deprecated<br class=3D"">is that TCP connections should be timing out. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This doesn=E2=80=99t take<br class=3D"">very long. &nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">~9 minutes, IIRC.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Should be 90 =
seconds.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>That=E2=80=
=99s for the three-way handshake=E2=80=A6 For an existing established =
flow, it can be much MUCH longer.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">And if there is a new =
prefix being advertised on the<br class=3D"">link, that address should =
have a valid lifetime newer than the old<br class=3D"">prefix, meaning =
that the next TCP connection should come from that<br class=3D"">new =
prefix, not the old one.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's =
not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred<br =
class=3D"">Lifetime affect address selection.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Okay, there=E2=80=99s something to fix. &nbsp;Why would =
these not affect source address =
selection?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Because=
 there are other things that do which are much better reasons for =
address selection.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>There are enough =
problems with address selection (especially on platforms like =
MacOS</div><div>where they=E2=80=99ve chosen to eliminate the ability to =
configure SAS) as it is. Adding this as an</div><div>additional variable =
(let alone making it override the other tie-breakers) is not, IMHO, =
an</div><div>actual improvement.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I think =
Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but<br =
class=3D"">shortening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just =
opens up an opportunity<br class=3D"">for an easy DoS, since I can now =
just send out death packets to the<br class=3D"">local network and break =
everything all at once.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The =
reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):<br =
class=3D"">you enforce FHS, or you don't.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>What is =
=E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>First Hop Security (e.g. RA Guard, SEND, =
etc.)</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If you Really Really =
want to be able to have the routers send out RAs<br class=3D"">that =
deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to<br =
class=3D"">upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask =
for<br class=3D"">something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Every piece helps.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Right, but if the effort involved in two different =
options differs by epsilon, you should always choose the option that =
produces the better outcome, shouldn=E2=80=99t =
you?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Yes, but =
the better outcome must be defined not only in terms of the ideal end =
result if/when implemented, but also in terms of the probability of =
widespread implementation and the time delay between now and said wide =
deployment.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""> Second, fix RA so that =
it=E2=80=99s<br class=3D"">non-repudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t=
 have the secret key.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">SEND does this, sort =
of. &nbsp;Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve<br class=3D"">a =
too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology. &nbsp;&nbsp;But =
the<br class=3D"">basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA =
that can be used<br class=3D"">to validate that the RA was signed with =
the corresponding private<br class=3D"">key.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">What's the practical difference =
between that, an a network that supports<br class=3D"">RA-Guard?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is =
no difference, but RA guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed =
in the past, will actually make the network not work. &nbsp; RA guard =
requires an active administrator. &nbsp; So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re =
talking about isn=E2=80=99t =
relevant.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>RA =
Guard as implemented today in most existing platforms requires an active =
administrator.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>RA Guard could be =
default configured on switches with particular default =E2=80=9Cplug =
router in here=E2=80=9D (uplink) ports, eliminating the need for an =
active administrator. This could be a useful specification in the =
HomeNet documents, perhaps.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">When another RA arrives, =
see if it was signed with the same key. &nbsp;&nbsp;If<br class=3D"">so, =
it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update<br =
class=3D"">whatever information that router sent, including =
flash-deprecating a<br class=3D"">prefix. &nbsp;&nbsp;If not, ignore =
it.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">In the non-SEND trust =
model, you do trust the local router. Why did you<br class=3D"">trust =
the local router to configure your network, but not for<br =
class=3D"">deprecating the prefix?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network. =
&nbsp; You <i class=3D"">hope</i>&nbsp;that the RA you get&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cf=
rom the router=E2=80=9D is actually from the =
router.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>That =
doesn=E2=80=99t answer the question. It merely describes the model. The =
question was why is bind trust in a prefix deprecation message any worse =
than blind trust in a network configuration message.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 27/10/19 16:35, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 10:14 , Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com
>>> <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Philip Homburg
>>> <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> =
wrote:
>>>> If you think that this is an important thing to fix, feel free to=20=

>>>> talk about it. But why in this discussion? SEND doesn't do anything =
for
>>>> flash renumbering. =46rom an operational point of view, RA-guard is =
much
>>>> more attractive then SEND. So it is not clear to me that there is =
any
>>>> need for SEND. But I could be wrong. In any case, if there is a =
need
>>>> to discuss SEND we could do that separately.
>>>=20
>>> I think you missed my point.  You can=E2=80=99t do flash renumbering =
by
>>> advertising a prefix with a valid lifetime of zero, because that =
will
>>> be ignored by hosts.   If it were not ignored by hosts, it would be =
a
>>> very effective DoS vector.    And so if you want to be able to flash
>>> deprecate a route, you need some way to validate that the =
deprecation
>>> is coming from the same source as the route.   Hence my suggested
>>> =E2=80=9Climited SEND=E2=80=9D.
>>>=20
>>> Limited SEND would not be hard to implement.   Yes, it would be
>>> marginally harder than just saying that hosts should accept flash
>>> deprecation of prefixes.   But nobody with any sense is going to
>>> implement that in their IP stack, so in practice if you want this to
>>> work, you need some way to do flash deprecations that doesn=E2=80=99t =
create a
>>> massive attack vector.
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s only a DOS vector if the attacker is already on-LAN.
>>=20
>> I recognize that there are environments where that is expected =
behavior
>> (e.g. Coffee Shop Wifi, University networks, etc.),but
>> it=E2=80=99s not the case for the average residential CPE and =
residential LAN
>> segments.
>>=20
>> In the vast majority of situations where I would expect hostile hosts =
to
>> be likely to be on LAN, I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99d be using
>> SLAAC for address assignment in the first place. Most likely, I=E2=80=99=
d want
>> stateful DHCP in such instances.
>=20
> You can do SLAAC as long as you do FHS. At which point the issue =
raised
> by Ted is a non-issue.

I=E2=80=99ve looked at what it takes to deploy SEND and I=E2=80=99ve met =
some of the people
that support the networks in places like McDonald=E2=80=99s and =
Starbucks=E2=80=A6

I=E2=80=99m thinking that successful, reliable FHS in those environments =
is a rather
humorous concept.

Owen


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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:39:35 -0700
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 27/10/19 10:54, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg =
<pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com
>> <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>>> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes
>>> advertised using
>>> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale
>>> prefixes
>>> after a reboot.
>>=20
>> Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us assume
>> prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then when the CPE
>> comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the prefix it had
>> previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still valid.  This =
can
>> be handled in infrastructure=E2=80=94the ISP edge router should know =
whether the
>> prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be advertising a =
route
>> for it.   If it is not still valid, then the CPE router should =
attempt
>> to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server (possibly both =
messages
>> would).
>=20
> That assues the CPE has stored the previously-leased prefix on stable
> storage -- which does not need to be the case. Hence the related text =
in
> our I-D.

IMHO, the CPE requirements should be increased and the CPE should be =
required
to store the prefix and it=E2=80=99s expected valid and preferred =
expiration times in persistent
storage. I would like to see the text in the I-D updated accordingly.

Owen
>=20


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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:41 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com =
<mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I should =
say
>> that you trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo
>> apt-get install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a =
bunch
>> of other DoS attacks that an attacker can perform).
>=20
> As an end user, I don=E2=80=99t have this experience.   If someone is =
spamming my network with RAs, I can find out who and disconnect them.   =
A DoS attack based on massive quantities of RAs is a lot different than =
an attack that shuts my network off with one multicast.=20

There are a variety of attacks in Fernando=E2=80=99s documentation which =
do not require large numbers of Gas.

A few multicast RAs well timed can, for example, change everyone=E2=80=99s=
 default gateway for MITM games.

Another thing you often seem to miss, Ted, is that not everyone=E2=80=99s =
environment is necessarily similar to yours.

When developing I-Ds and RFCs, care must be taken to consider that the =
internet is an extremely diverse set of networks in an even more diverse =
set of environments.

Owen


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Oct 31, 2019, at =
3:41 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" =
class=3D"">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I =
should say</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that you =
trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">apt-get =
install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a =
bunch</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">of other DoS =
attacks that an attacker can =
perform).</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">As=
 an end user, I don=E2=80=99t have this experience. &nbsp; If someone is =
spamming my network with RAs, I can find out who and disconnect them. =
&nbsp; A DoS attack based on massive quantities of RAs is a lot =
different than an attack that shuts my network off with one =
multicast.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>There are a variety of attacks in Fernando=E2=80=99s =
documentation which do not require large numbers of Gas.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>A few multicast RAs well timed can, for example, =
change everyone=E2=80=99s default gateway for MITM games.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Another thing you often seem to miss, Ted, is that =
not everyone=E2=80=99s environment is necessarily similar to =
yours.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>When developing I-Ds and =
RFCs, care must be taken to consider that the internet is an extremely =
diverse set of networks in an even more diverse set of =
environments.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:20:27 +1100
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On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 06:34 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>
> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>
> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
> If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, does that=
 help, or
> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>
>
> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
> actually help IPv6 deployment?
>
>
> Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not saying we shouldn=E2=
=80=99t do things to improve the
> situation.   I am saying that we should be strategic about it.
>
> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s depreca=
ted
> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=99t take
> very long.
>
>
> ~9 minutes, IIRC.
>
>
> Should be 90 seconds.
>

You've got no more than 10 seconds unless you want end users to actively
try to do something to recover, which can include calling their ISP's
helpdesk.

A short presentation on some user experience factors for network engineers.

"A bit of UX for NEs"
https://www.slideshare.net/markzzzsmith/ausnog-2019-lightning-talk-a-bit-of=
-ux-for-nes



>
> And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the
> link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the old
> prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that
> new prefix, not the old one.
>
>
> That's not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred
> Lifetime affect address selection.
>
>
> Okay, there=E2=80=99s something to fix.  Why would these not affect sourc=
e address
> selection?
>
> I think Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but
> shortening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens up an=
 opportunity
> for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the
> local network and break everything all at once.
>
>
> The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):
> you enforce FHS, or you don't.
>
>
> What is =E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?
>
> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs
> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
> something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?
>
>
> Every piece helps.
>
>
> Right, but if the effort involved in two different options differs by
> epsilon, you should always choose the option that produces the better
> outcome, shouldn=E2=80=99t you?
>
> Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s
> non-repudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t have the secret key.
>
> SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve
> a too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the
> basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be used
> to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private
> key.
>
>
> What's the practical difference between that, an a network that supports
> RA-Guard?
>
>
> On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference, but
> RA guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed in the past, will a=
ctually
> make the network not work.   RA guard requires an active administrator.
> So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re talking about isn=E2=80=99t relevant.
>
>
> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>
>
> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did you
> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
> deprecating the prefix?
>
>
> In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network.   You *hope* th=
at
> the RA you get =E2=80=9Cfrom the router=E2=80=9D is actually from the rou=
ter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--0000000000007550a305963def58
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 06:34 Ted Lemon, &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mellon@fugue.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mellon@fugue.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM,=
 Fernando Gont &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:<br><div><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite">Indeed, this would also not actually solve the=
 problem. =C2=A0=C2=A0At present,<br>the ISPs are doing something that is o=
ut of spec and causes problems.<br>If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by acco=
mmodating what they do, does that help, or<br>does it just encourage them t=
o continue doing it?<br></blockquote><br>Did happy eyeballs encourage broke=
n IPv6 connectivity, or did it<br>actually help IPv6 deployment?<br></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div>Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=
=99m not saying we shouldn=E2=80=99t do things to improve the situation. =
=C2=A0 I am saying that we should be strategic about it.</div><div><br><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">What should be ha=
ppening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s deprecated<br>is that TCP =
connections should be timing out. =C2=A0=C2=A0This doesn=E2=80=99t take<br>=
very long. =C2=A0<br></blockquote><br>~9 minutes, IIRC.<br></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div>Should be 90 seconds.</div></div></blockquote></div=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You&#39;ve got no more=
 than 10 seconds unless you want end users to actively try to do something =
to recover, which can include calling their ISP&#39;s helpdesk.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A short presentation on some user e=
xperience factors for network engineers.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">&quot;A bit of UX for NEs&quot;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><a =
href=3D"https://www.slideshare.net/markzzzsmith/ausnog-2019-lightning-talk-=
a-bit-of-ux-for-nes">https://www.slideshare.net/markzzzsmith/ausnog-2019-li=
ghtning-talk-a-bit-of-ux-for-nes</a><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:a=
fter-white-space"><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite">And if there is a new prefix being advertised =
on the<br>link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the ol=
d<br>prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that<br>=
new prefix, not the old one.<br></blockquote><br>That&#39;s not correct. Ne=
ither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred<br>Lifetime affect address selec=
tion.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Okay, there=E2=80=99s some=
thing to fix.=C2=A0 Why would these not affect source address selection?</d=
iv><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">I=
 think Fernando=E2=80=99s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but<br>s=
hortening the minimum really doesn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=94it just opens up an op=
portunity<br>for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets t=
o the<br>local network and break everything all at once.<br></blockquote><b=
r>The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):<br=
>you enforce FHS, or you don&#39;t.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div>What is =E2=80=9CFHS=E2=80=9D?</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">If you Really Really want to be able to=
 have the routers send out RAs<br>that deprecate the default route, and, as=
 Mark is saying here, to<br>upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, =
why not ask for<br>something that=E2=80=99s a real improvement?<br></blockq=
uote><br>Every piece helps.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Righ=
t, but if the effort involved in two different options differs by epsilon, =
you should always choose the option that produces the better outcome, shoul=
dn=E2=80=99t you?</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"> Second, fix RA so that it=E2=80=99s<br>non-r=
epudiable by a device that doesn=E2=80=99t have the secret key.<br><br>SEND=
 does this, sort of.=C2=A0 Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve<br>a =
too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology. =C2=A0=C2=A0But the<=
br>basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be used<br=
>to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private<br>key.<=
br></blockquote><br>What&#39;s the practical difference between that, an a =
network that supports<br>RA-Guard?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv>On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference, bu=
t RA guard on some networks, as we=E2=80=99ve discussed in the past, will a=
ctually make the network not work. =C2=A0 RA guard requires an active admin=
istrator. =C2=A0 So the CPE case we=E2=80=99re talking about isn=E2=80=99t =
relevant.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">When another RA arrives, see if it was=
 signed with the same key. =C2=A0=C2=A0If<br>so, it came from the same rout=
er, and can be trusted to update<br>whatever information that router sent, =
including flash-deprecating a<br>prefix. =C2=A0=C2=A0If not, ignore it.<br>=
</blockquote><br>In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router=
. Why did you<br>trust the local router to configure your network, but not =
for<br>deprecating the prefix?<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div>I=
n the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network. =C2=A0 You <i>hope=
</i>=C2=A0that the RA you get=C2=A0=E2=80=9Cfrom the router=E2=80=9D is act=
ually from the router.</div><div><br></div></div>__________________________=
_____________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000007550a305963def58--


From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:07:31 2019
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From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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Hello, Owen,

On 31/10/19 16:27, Owen DeLong wrote:
[....]
>>>
>>> I’m not sure what I could do to elaborate. The addition of a specific
>>> call-out that
>>> even if the current behavior of ≤2 hours = 2 hours is to be preserved,
>>> there should
>>> be a special case for “0 seconds” which causes the prefix to be immediately
>>> deprecated with extreme prejudice.
>>>
>>> Hosts should be required to treat an RA containing a prefix with a 0 second
>>> valid lifetime as an invalid prefix and immediately deprecate it from
>>> the interface
>>> if it is in use.
>>
>> OK, so you do agree with the proposed change? (in
>> draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum, not in *this* document)
> 
> From the context of my thinking at the time of writing the original reply,
> “this document” referred to draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum. Apolgies
> for my lack of clarity as you have apparently interpreted it differently.

Ok. BUt, double-checking: DO you agree with the proposed behaviour?




[....]
>>>>
>>>> Even with the default RA frequency, if you were to unprefer a prefix
>>>> upon, say, second RA that doesn't advertise it, and say, remove the
>>>> prefix after many other RAs are received, that would be a *big*
>>>> improvement to what we have now.
>>>
>>> I don’t like this idea because I can think of some scenarios where you
>>> may receive multiple RAs from router A not containing the prefix in the
>>> same time frame that router B has not sent an additional RA containing
>>> the prefix, but it will do so in its next RA.
>>
>> Maybe it wasn't clear in the I-D, but the basic idea is:
>> If you receive multiple RAs from router A that do not advertise the
>> prefix, then you disassociate such prefix with router A. If nobody else
>> is advertising the prefix, you'd deprecate it. If other routers are
>> advertising it, this would not change the status quo of the prefix wrt
>> such other routers.
> 
> That’s definitely not how I interpreted the I-D and I would strongly encourage
> you to review and update the I-D for clarity in this area. I’m actually still not
> 100% convinced that this is correct behavior. It also places additional burdens
> on hosts to track all routers associated with a given prefix rather than merely
> tracking candidate default gateways, RIO data, and one set of prefix timers
> utilizing the most recently received timer refreshes.

Thanks for the feedback! I will definitely clarify the text. FWIW, in
the context of RFC8028, you already need to keep prefixes associated
with routers....


> 
>>> There is no requirement for all routers on the same link to provide the
>>> same set of PIOs, nor are they required to use the same advertisement
>>> timers.
>>
>> Agreed. Please see above.
> 
> With the above clarification, I think it can be done and is less likely to break
> things. However, it does place a significant additional tracking burden on the
> host which I’m not entirely convinced is a desirable situation. Especially in the
> case of a resource-constrained host which is using SLAAC to avoid the overhead
> of DHCP.

In the context of RFC8028, you don't have much of an option -- otherwise
you run the risk of being egress filtered.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 16:34, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
>>> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
>>> If we “fix” this by accommodating what they do, does that help, or
>>> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>>
>> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
>> actually help IPv6 deployment?
> 
> Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying we shouldn’t do things to improve the
> situation.   I am saying that we should be strategic about it.

For the home network case, the situation right now is that there are
deployments that break, and ISPs meaning to deploy IPv6 that can't do
stable prefixes. Certainly, that's a very bad strategy on our side.

That said, and as noted, the home network case is just *one* scenario
where this problem may be faced. And a subset of the mitigations for
this scenarios are useful for the general case.



>>> What should be happening on the host with a prefix that’s deprecated
>>> is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn’t take
>>> very long.  
>>
>> ~9 minutes, IIRC.
> 
> Should be 90 seconds.

Nope. The default user timeout is 5 minutes as per RFC793. (The first
para of the second page of RFC5482 provides a summary wrt the
specification of the user timeout).




>>> And if there is a new prefix being advertised on the
>>> link, that address should have a valid lifetime newer than the old
>>> prefix, meaning that the next TCP connection should come from that
>>> new prefix, not the old one.
>>
>> That's not correct. Neither the Valid Lifetime nor the Preferred
>> Lifetime affect address selection.
> 
> Okay, there’s something to fix.  Why would these not affect source
> address selection?

For many reasons: one of them: two different routers might be using
different values for these timers, in an un-coordinated manner. And
there's not reason for which the smaller or larger lifetimes should
imply an address is preferred.

OTOH, you might thing about preferring "the last advertised prefix". BUt
that would mean that src address would flap, which is bad for
trouble-shooting.


> 
>>> I think Fernando’s plan to shorten some timers makes sense, but
>>> shortening the minimum really doesn’t—it just opens up an opportunity
>>> for an easy DoS, since I can now just send out death packets to the
>>> local network and break everything all at once.
>>
>> The reality with ND attacks are (modulo sanity checks on the packets):
>> you enforce FHS, or you don't.
> 
> What is “FHS”?

Sorry, for that: First Hop Security, Cisco's speak for RA-Guard, ND
inspeaction, and so on...




>>> If you Really Really want to be able to have the routers send out RAs
>>> that deprecate the default route, and, as Mark is saying here, to
>>> upgrade millions or perhaps billions of hosts, why not ask for
>>> something that’s a real improvement?
>>
>> Every piece helps.
> 
> Right, but if the effort involved in two different options differs by
> epsilon, you should always choose the option that produces the better
> outcome, shouldn’t you?

Is there any of the proposed fixes that we shouldn't be doing, already,
anyway?


> 
>>> Second, fix RA so that it’s
>>> non-repudiable by a device that doesn’t have the secret key.
>>>
>>> SEND does this, sort of.  Nobody uses SEND because it tries to solve
>>> a too-big problem and does it using obsolete technology.   But the
>>> basic idea is good: include a public key in every RA that can be used
>>> to validate that the RA was signed with the corresponding private
>>> key.
>>
>> What's the practical difference between that, an a network that supports
>> RA-Guard?
> 
> On a network that supports RA guard, there probably is no difference,
> but RA guard on some networks, as we’ve discussed in the past, will
> actually make the network not work.   RA guard requires an active
> administrator.   So the CPE case we’re talking about isn’t relevant.

The point is: in a network where you do not employ RA-Guard, you are
already trusting the router. Actually, it's worse: you trust all local
systems.


> 
> 
>>> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
>>> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
>>> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
>>> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>>
>> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did you
>> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
>> deprecating the prefix?
> 
> In the non-SEND trust model, you trust the local network.   You
> /hope/ that the RA you get “from the router” is actually from the router.

Exactly: that's the point: you already trust the local network. What's
the rationale for trusting one of the RAs, but not the others?


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 16:38, Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello, Ted,
>>
>>
>> On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>> Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
>>> the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
>>> If we “fix” this by accommodating what they do, does that help, or
>>> does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>>
>> Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
>> actually help IPv6 deployment?
> 
> Considering these mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy.
> 
> It did both.

It's hard for me to believe that folks were breaking stuff on purpose.

In any case, I would assume and expect that helping IPv6 deployment was
more of a priority at the time. IN fact, we wouldn't be talking about
"google seeing 25% of IPv6" if there wasn't a way to circumvent
brokenness, I'd assume.


[...]
> 
>>> When another RA arrives, see if it was signed with the same key.   If
>>> so, it came from the same router, and can be trusted to update
>>> whatever information that router sent, including flash-deprecating a
>>> prefix.   If not, ignore it.
>>
>> In the non-SEND trust model, you do trust the local router. Why did you
>> trust the local router to configure your network, but not for
>> deprecating the prefix?
> 
> Trusting the local router to configure the network to add a previously non-operational host to the network has a somewhat different set of consequence for failure than trusting whatever on-link host wishes to tell you to effectively shut down your currently operating network connection.

We'll that's the SLAAC model.



> Especially when you consider that such an announcement can be sent to the all nodes on link multicast address, effectively dropping them all at once.
> 
> I agree it’s not a huge difference, but, it is a difference and certainly the scope of the resulting problem can be much larger than the case of individual host configuration.

Hosts trust a lot of other crap. e.g., feel free to advertising a Cur
Hop Limit of 1. Is that any different?

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 16:39, Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 27/10/19 10:54, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>> On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com
>>> <mailto:pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote:
>>>> The little bit missing is that the CPE should write prefixes
>>>> advertised using
>>>> SLAAC to persistent storage which allows the CPE to invalidate stale
>>>> prefixes
>>>> after a reboot.
>>>
>>> Actually I do not believe this is correct behavior.   Let us assume
>>> prefix delegation.   If we have prefix delegation, then when the CPE
>>> comes back from a power cycle, it should reconfirm the prefix it had
>>> previously; the assumption is that that prefix is still valid.  This can
>>> be handled in infrastructure—the ISP edge router should know whether the
>>> prefix is still valid, because if it is it should be advertising a route
>>> for it.   If it is not still valid, then the CPE router should attempt
>>> to renew it, which would go to the DHCP server (possibly both messages
>>> would).
>>
>> That assues the CPE has stored the previously-leased prefix on stable
>> storage -- which does not need to be the case. Hence the related text in
>> our I-D.
> 
> IMHO, the CPE requirements should be increased and the CPE should be required
> to store the prefix and it’s expected valid and preferred expiration times in persistent
> storage. I would like to see the text in the I-D updated accordingly.

It's already there (draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum-00):

3.2.1.  Signaling Stale Configuration Information

   In order to phase-out stale configuration information:

   o  A CPE router sending RAs that advertise dynamically-learned
      prefixes (e.g. via DHCPv6-PD) on an interface MUST record, on
      stable storage, the list of prefixes being advertised on each
      network segment.


Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 16:47, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:41 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
> <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>> As someone that has played a lot with ND-based DoS vectors, I should say
>> that you trust RAs, or you don't. If you do, all bets are off. ("sudo
>> apt-get install ipv6toolkit;man ra6" and you'll get examples of a bunch
>> of other DoS attacks that an attacker can perform).
> 
> As an end user, I don’t have this experience.   If someone is spamming
> my network with RAs, I can find out who and disconnect them.   A DoS
> attack based on massive quantities of RAs is a lot different than an
> attack that shuts my network off with one multicast. 

Meta:
The regular non-technical user has no clue about RAs or the like. So,
the network works, or it doesn't. Normally, if things do not work, thye
will unplug and re-plug the router, ironically triggering this problem
in many cases.

That said: There are plenty of one-plenty of one-packet DoS vectors in
SLAAC. e.g., sen an RA with a Cur Hop Limit of 0, send an RA that
advertises a default router with highes priority, or simply advertise
RIOs as ::/1 and 8000::/1, overriding default routers.

Any clueful attacker will use any that works, rather than sticking to a
specific one.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 16:49, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com
> <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
>> RA Guard could be default configured on switches with particular
>> default “plug router in here” (uplink) ports, eliminating the need for
>> an active administrator. This could be a useful specification in the
>> HomeNet documents, perhaps.
> 
> This would be disastrous.   It pretty much makes permissionless
> networking impossible in exchange for solving a security problem no-one has.

Then, what's the big deal to honor PIOs that advertise a lifetime of 0? ;-)


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 31/10/19 21:20, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 06:34 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com
> <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
>     <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
>>     On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>>     Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At present,
>>>     the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes problems.
>>>     If we “fix” this by accommodating what they do, does that help, or
>>>     does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
>>
>>     Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
>>     actually help IPv6 deployment?
> 
>     Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying we shouldn’t do things to improve
>     the situation.   I am saying that we should be strategic about it.
> 
>>>     What should be happening on the host with a prefix that’s deprecated
>>>     is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn’t take
>>>     very long.  
>>
>>     ~9 minutes, IIRC.
> 
>     Should be 90 seconds.
> 
> 
> You've got no more than 10 seconds unless you want end users to actively
> try to do something to recover, which can include calling their ISP's
> helpdesk.

I'd argue the opposite. But, anyway, for the most part the user timeout
is not under the control of the user.


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 28/10/19 06:58, Ole Troan wrote:
> Philip,
> 
>>> I didn't see your answer to:  "I dont know of a single server which
>>> operates that way currently. Can you point to a working example?"
>>>
>>> I take it the answer is: "currently none"?
>>
>> Is the question whether people are running services on home networks where
>> the ISP uses flash renumbering?
>>
>> If so, the answer is yes. There are a number of 'dynamic DNS' providers.
>> People use those to keep DNS up-to-date when their public IPv4 address changes.
>>
>> All of this is small scale hobbyist usage (and most likely only IPv4) but
>> it does exist.
> 
> No, the question is if there is any host stack + server software that deals with flash renumbering deployed.
> And that is deployable without coding.
> 
> It's the same question Owen posed for the ISP side, when challenged with how DHCP behaves.
> The point here is that we as the IETF must also consider the end-user here. Not that I don't think ISPs do that too, but so far this debate has largely been on the premise of the opertor with little concern of the consequences for the user.

No, that's in correct. This document was, in fact, triggered by an
operator that does care.

And both here and on the ipv6-ops there have been statements noting that
they have these scenarios in their networks. And not because they don't
care about their users.

-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:31:51 2019
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com>
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
References: <m1iOinq-0000J3C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <44F39DE2-E142-4ED0-853E-2F3AAC6F4ADE@employees.org> <m1iOnqN-0000EpC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <ADCF08FD-1366-4CCB-984E-695D8E2AC2F8@employees.org> <m1iP0kt-0000GkC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <21E28E8F-8E91-47D6-8337-9FF0359D67B8@employees.org> <m1iP1fa-0000GYC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <1E99599F-0A56-4A53-AD7C-499BC87AA7D3@employees.org> <m1iP5dN-0000GNC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <F5D6FB85-F7E6-4600-B50D-BA3E6331E8CD@employees.org>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On 28/10/19 11:10, Ole Troan wrote:
> Philip,
> 
>>> No, the question is if there is any host stack + server software
>>> that deals with flash renumbering deployed.  And that is deployable
>>> without coding.
>>
>> Flash renumbering is by and large not a server problem. If a request
>> reaches the server, then the server typically can reply. Any flow that
>> spans the renumbering event will be affected, but there are lots of 
>> other issues that also affect established flows.
>>
>> If you renumber the network that contains mail servers, web servers,
>> xmpp servers, etc., then the servers don't really notice.
>>
>> Of course, a renumbering event requires DNS to be updated, possibly changes
>> to firewalls, etc. But that is no different from a proper renumbering event.
> 
> And this is something you have tested and verified works?
> For a set of typical open source packages?
> See Bjørn's message as well.
> And try to see what happens when you do this for a hidden primary DNS server...
> 
> The world just isn't ready for flash renumbering of networks, likely not graceful renumbering either.
> There are not many sensible responses the end-users can come up with to a service provider with a network behaving this way, apart from isolating addressing. Aka NAT.

We did in fact propose several. (draft-gont-6man-slaac-renum).

It would be amusing for v6ops' response to this case that folks should
be doing NAT.


-- 
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





From nobody Thu Oct 31 23:49:31 2019
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:49:17 +1100
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To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
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On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 14:31 Fernando Gont, <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:

> On 31/10/19 21:20, Mark Smith wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 06:34 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com
> > <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com
> >     <mailto:fgont@si6networks.com>> wrote:
> >>     On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:
> >>>     Indeed, this would also not actually solve the problem.   At
> present,
> >>>     the ISPs are doing something that is out of spec and causes
> problems.
> >>>     If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommodating what they do, d=
oes that help, or
> >>>     does it just encourage them to continue doing it?
> >>
> >>     Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connectivity, or did it
> >>     actually help IPv6 deployment?
> >
> >     Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not saying we should=
n=E2=80=99t do things to improve
> >     the situation.   I am saying that we should be strategic about it.
> >
> >>>     What should be happening on the host with a prefix that=E2=80=99s
> deprecated
> >>>     is that TCP connections should be timing out.   This doesn=E2=80=
=99t take
> >>>     very long.
> >>
> >>     ~9 minutes, IIRC.
> >
> >     Should be 90 seconds.
> >
> >
> > You've got no more than 10 seconds unless you want end users to activel=
y
> > try to do something to recover, which can include calling their ISP's
> > helpdesk.
>
> I'd argue the opposite..



I wouldn't argue with research from 1968, referenced in an article from
1993, by an expert in usability, cited in my slides.

Response Times: The 3 Important Limits
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/



But, anyway, for the most part the user timeout
> is not under the control of the user.
>


I don't understand this.

It not being in control of the user is the point of knowing UX/HCI factors
so the good default response times can be chosen.

TCP's default timeouts are way too large for a good end user experience. I
don't know what criteria were used to select them, but it certainly wasn't
human usability factors.





>
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 14:31 Fernando Gont, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer=
 noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 31/10/19 21:20, Mark Smith wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 06:34 Ted Lemon, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugu=
e.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mellon@fugue.com</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noref=
errer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">mellon@fugue.co=
m</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Fernando Gont &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferre=
r noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">fgont@si6networks.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 27/10/19 09:02, Ted Lemon wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Indeed, this would also not actually solve =
the problem. =C2=A0=C2=A0At present,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the ISPs are doing something that is out of=
 spec and causes problems.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If we =E2=80=9Cfix=E2=80=9D this by accommo=
dating what they do, does that help, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does it just encourage them to continue doi=
ng it?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Did happy eyeballs encourage broken IPv6 connec=
tivity, or did it<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually help IPv6 deployment?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Don=E2=80=99t get me wrong=E2=80=94I=E2=80=99m not =
saying we shouldn=E2=80=99t do things to improve<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the situation. =C2=A0 I am saying that we should be=
 strategic about it.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What should be happening on the host with a=
 prefix that=E2=80=99s deprecated<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that TCP connections should be timing ou=
t. =C2=A0=C2=A0This doesn=E2=80=99t take<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very long. =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~9 minutes, IIRC.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Should be 90 seconds.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; You&#39;ve got no more than 10 seconds unless you want end users to ac=
tively<br>
&gt; try to do something to recover, which can include calling their ISP&#3=
9;s<br>
&gt; helpdesk.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d argue the opposite..</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I wouldn&#39;t argue wi=
th research from 1968, referenced in an article from 1993, by an expert in =
usability, cited in my slides.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><h1 style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.875rem;padding:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:&qu=
ot;source sans variable&quot;,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.1em;font-size:=
2.2em;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Response Times: The 3 Important Li=
mits</h1><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://www.nngroup.com/articles/resp=
onse-times-3-important-limits/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.nng=
roup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/</a><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"> But, anyway, for the most part the user timeout<br>
is not under the control of the user.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39=
;t understand this.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It n=
ot being in control of the user is the point of knowing UX/HCI factors so t=
he good default response times can be chosen.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">TCP&#39;s default timeouts are way too large for a go=
od end user experience. I don&#39;t know what criteria were used to select =
them, but it certainly wasn&#39;t human usability factors.</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Fernando Gont<br>
SI6 Networks<br>
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferr=
er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer norefe=
rrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks.=
com</a><br>
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--00000000000009bd4d0596435e2a--

