From nobody Sat Aug 1 09:45:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868043A09BA for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bR4ChR-jZWtS for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79E083A09B9 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 568B4DB976D4BEC5566F; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) by lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:50 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:50 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:50 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation Thread-Index: AdZoH5e3mvncP8aHS4+K7PyCnHbT4Q== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:45:49 +0000 Message-ID: <509253a95839479fbe9741be753ce8d5@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.205.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 16:45:56 -0000 There are many references to Fragmentation documents in "Previous Work" sec= tion (and in real measurements too), But Fragmentation is no cited among drop reasons (section 4-6). IMHO: It deserves separate bullet in the Table of Contents. Ed/ -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ie= tf.org Sent: 31 =C9=C0=CC=D1 2020 =C7. 22:32 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Implications of IPv6 Packets with Ext= ension Headers Authors : Fernando Gont Nick Hilliard Gert Doering Warren Kumari Geoff Huston Will (Shucheng) Liu Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2020-07-31 Abstract: This document summarizes the operational implications of IPv6 extension headers, and attempts to analyze reasons why packets with IPv6 extension headers may be dropped in the public Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drop= s-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Sat Aug 1 09:46:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1283A09B9 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6iZnLGop8wTZ for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E8253A09B4 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8B156B497D5BA98A2CF3 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) by lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:51 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:50 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:50 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Middleboxes Thread-Index: AdZoI2lKdHlHBlB0SjKPL9qTTWGsSQ== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:45:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.205.215] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_f65dff980756428e9aeec77fe87d8138huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Middleboxes X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 16:45:57 -0000 --_000_f65dff980756428e9aeec77fe87d8138huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I am still not happy that middleboxes (Firewall, Load Balancer) are discard= ed as the reasons for EH drops. Tom (Herbert) is right that "FWs and middleboxes that insist on meddling in= protocol layers beyond the networking layer where both the standard and th= e Internet architecture say they are not supposed to look at" But they are! We should not ignore the reality. It is especially evident that they are among reasons for EHs drops after re= sponse: > I would love to see the firewall device that is capable of processing ALL= protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! Reality is that firewalls can= only process what they are programmed to process which is typically a very= small subset of the possible protocols a host might want to use. It is not good to ignore/hide some type of drops that we do not like. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ie= tf.org Sent: 31 =C9=C0=CC=D1 2020 =C7. 22:32 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Implications of IPv6 Packets with Ext= ension Headers Authors : Fernando Gont Nick Hilliard Gert Doering Warren Kumari Geoff Huston Will (Shucheng) Liu Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.= txt Pages : 16 Date : 2020-07-31 Abstract: This document summarizes the operational implications of IPv6 extension headers, and attempts to analyze reasons why packets with IPv6 extension headers may be dropped in the public Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drop= s-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --_000_f65dff980756428e9aeec77fe87d8138huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

I am still not happy that middleboxes (Firewall, = Load Balancer) are discarded as the reasons for EH drops.

Tom (Herbert) is right that “FWs and middle= boxes that insist on meddling in protocol layers beyond the networking laye= r where both the standard and the Internet architecture say they are not su= pposed to look at”

But they are! We should not ignore the reality.

It is especially evident that they are among reas= ons for EHs drops after response:

> I would love to see the firewall device that= is capable of processing ALL protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! Reality is that firewalls can only process what they are programmed to p= rocess which is typically a very small subset of the possible protocols a h= ost might want to use.

 

It is not good to ignore/hide some type of drops = that we do not like.

Eduard

-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ie= tf.org
Sent: 31 =C9=C0=CC=D1 2020 =C7. 22:32
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt<= /p>

 

 

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-lin= e Internet-Drafts directories.

This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations = WG of the IETF.

 

        Title&= nbsp;          : Operational I= mplications of IPv6 Packets with Extension Headers

        Author= s         : Fernando Gont

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     Nick Hilliard

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     Gert Doering

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     Warren Kumari

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     Geoff Huston

         =             &nb= sp;    Will (Shucheng) Liu

        &= nbsp;      Filename     &= nbsp;  : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt

        &= nbsp;      Pages     &nbs= p;     : 16

        &= nbsp;      Date      = ;      : 2020-07-31

 

Abstract:

   This document summarizes the operati= onal implications of IPv6

   extension headers, and attempts to a= nalyze reasons why packets with

   IPv6 extension headers may be droppe= d in the public Internet.

 

 

The IETF datatracker status page for this draft i= s:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-p= acket-drops/

 

There are also htmlized versions available at:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-dr= ops-00

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6op= s-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00

 

 

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes = from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are availab= le at tools.ietf.org.

 

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous F= TP at:

<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/int= ernet-drafts/

 

 

_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org=

https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--_000_f65dff980756428e9aeec77fe87d8138huaweicom_-- From nobody Sat Aug 1 10:01:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11993A0ACD for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cEdTOuOPpchw for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9103A3A0A73 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml743-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 83F0740720A1BA1FCA9C; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.160) by lhreml743-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.193) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:45:50 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:49 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:45:49 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - MTU issue Thread-Index: AdZoGT3eJjIdKvfMQSCxNFAVWXOVyg== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:45:49 +0000 Message-ID: <5c74b8bd3063471d88add4b004390628@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.205.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - MTU issue X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 17:00:59 -0000 Hi all, There is informative reference to MTU problem (PMTUD-Blackholes), but nothing about MTU is mentioned in the draft itself. I believe that MTU is among reasons for EHs packet drops, but Fernando's statistics does not separate discard from: - PFE restrictions - Configured policies - oversized MTU Hence, we could make only qualitative statement. Fernando, Is it possible to extract MTU drop weight from your numerous tests? ICMP code for oversized packet was different. Do you keep raw answers? Eduard -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ie= tf.org Sent: 31 =C9=C0=CC=D1 2020 =C7. 22:32 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Implications of IPv6 Packets with Ext= ension Headers Authors : Fernando Gont Nick Hilliard Gert Doering Warren Kumari Geoff Huston Will (Shucheng) Liu Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2020-07-31 Abstract: This document summarizes the operational implications of IPv6 extension headers, and attempts to analyze reasons why packets with IPv6 extension headers may be dropped in the public Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drop= s-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Sat Aug 1 10:02:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C233A0AE3 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efUy--14SQpQ for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2AB3A0AE1 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml722-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 450516F4699D34F4C04A for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:02:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) by lhreml722-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:02:40 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 20:02:40 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 20:02:40 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy Thread-Index: AdZoJDi1DSShQSOKR127T3+c++/N/A== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:02:40 +0000 Message-ID: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.205.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 17:02:45 -0000 I know from discussion with some carriers that some of them filter out EHs = intentionally To avoid any problems discussed in this draft. It is definitely the reason for EHs drops, but non-technical. It is probabl= y "Absence of use case". May be it is the primary reason (in %). Should it be included into the list? Or we should be silent about non-techn= ical things. IMHO: it would not be resolved up to the business case would be found. Additional risk and additional processing capacity should have the reward. = It is just business. Ed/ -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ie= tf.org Sent: 31 =C9=C0=CC=D1 2020 =C7. 22:32 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Implications of IPv6 Packets with Ext= ension Headers Authors : Fernando Gont Nick Hilliard Gert Doering Warren Kumari Geoff Huston Will (Shucheng) Liu Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2020-07-31 Abstract: This document summarizes the operational implications of IPv6 extension headers, and attempts to analyze reasons why packets with IPv6 extension headers may be dropped in the public Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drop= s-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Sun Aug 2 05:05:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C7D3A0BE6 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 05:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qbjFbw_qykts for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 05:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEC263A0A8E for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 05:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.166.244.167] (77.18.52.167.tmi.telenormobil.no [77.18.52.167]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BEF24E11B28; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:05:28 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EEEB731C-825F-40F8-9EFD-27352B49BEB8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:05:25 +0200 Message-Id: References: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Vasilenko Eduard X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Middleboxes X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:05:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail-EEEB731C-825F-40F8-9EFD-27352B49BEB8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 1 Aug 2020, at 18:47, Vasilenko Eduard wr= ote: >=20 > I am still not happy that middleboxes (Firewall, Load Balancer) are discar= ded as the reasons for EH drops. >=20 > Tom (Herbert) is right that =E2=80=9CFWs and middleboxes that insist on me= ddling in protocol layers beyond the networking layer where both the standar= d and the Internet architecture say they are not supposed to look at=E2=80=9D= >=20 > But they are! We should not ignore the reality. >=20 > It is especially evident that they are among reasons for EHs drops after r= esponse: >=20 > > I would love to see the firewall device that is capable of processing AL= L protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! Reality is that firewalls can= only process what they are programmed to process which is typically a very s= mall subset of the possible protocols a host might want to use. >=20 > =20 >=20 > It is not good to ignore/hide some type of drops that we do not like. >=20 I think you have a good point.=20 If I was implementing a function to wash traffic in front of a set of eg DNS= servers, why would I ever let any EH through? Known or unknown. There=E2=80=99s a chicken and egg situation. Awaiting an across the Interne= t useful EH option.=20 Apart from measuring the transparency level of the core Internet, it=E2=80=99= s unclear to me what useful conclusions we can draw from this work.=20 Cheers=20 Ole= --Apple-Mail-EEEB731C-825F-40F8-9EFD-27352B49BEB8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 1 Aug 2020, at 18:47, Vasilenko Eduard <= ;vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> wrote:

I am still not ha= ppy that middleboxes (Firewall, Load Balancer) are discarded as the reasons f= or EH drops.

Tom (Herbert) is right that =E2=80=9CFWs and middl= eboxes that insist on meddling in protocol layers beyond the networking laye= r where both the standard and the Internet architecture say they are not sup= posed to look at=E2=80=9D

But they are! We should not ignore the reality.

It is especially evident that they are among reaso= ns for EHs drops after response:

> I would love to see the firewall device that i= s capable of processing ALL protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! Reality is that firewalls can only process what they are programmed to pr= ocess which is typically a very small subset of the possible protocols a hos= t might want to use.

 

It is not good to ignore/hide some type of drops t= hat we do not like.

I think you have a good point.&nbs= p;

If I was implementing a function to wash traffic in front of= a set of eg DNS servers, why would I ever let any EH through? Known or unkn= own.

There=E2=80=99s a chicken and egg situat= ion. Awaiting  an across the Internet useful EH option. 

Apart from measuring the transparency level of the core Inte= rnet, it=E2=80=99s unclear to me what useful conclusions we can draw from th= is work. 

Cheers 
Ole
= --Apple-Mail-EEEB731C-825F-40F8-9EFD-27352B49BEB8-- From nobody Sun Aug 2 13:34:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831863A0BF4 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a5GB9Fd5jxMI for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x643.google.com (mail-pl1-x643.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::643]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7948F3A0BF3 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x643.google.com with SMTP id u10so10222799plr.7 for ; Sun, 02 Aug 2020 13:34:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MUkMK9EGFbrwJ9D1s7NKKizX+Y0QSlULzzuraaqCqGs=; b=hM8X/s5BHrV7qzq7WWRuh99K24aseoUQ3n0rwDVnJo6gbIzFr13o4/TOokw2MJbkQ8 umSUTBAk1nz1IFEeb1tWWMhqOQFRGULvVqprLt6lRseYQp7t4FebWCqd9BUNlTQ50eEx PHN1FfpPh/JMggazAIuYBkRjTa7giLSyk1D0hlJ/6l6wMPSJUAfYu2edwMsmhTpj3l0c 1W3ZVtzOiUgcHjunbdV2V4PKHZboZXSHRkbr5RBTNGImgMM44AV0FVvh7/kVTPKyE68V 8YG3lpIbpRJSmEV2Q4K0FZNWvwnWE6kpsQX+rK+5f9B15Wy4h/h9MCZ1HWQbwbUxPbeN ZcAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MUkMK9EGFbrwJ9D1s7NKKizX+Y0QSlULzzuraaqCqGs=; b=O5ZfPfVAIRI7KJj/i82r07Myghe5YHKK1tLg/jnkuwD8MmjxfI1EIz1RD8s4Psy1tM DUoEC4FoFaKFC0iN5kb5EE7u2BmEm0yPrB2gp9hy48xHPKF79boyeRQXNLX4/gxq9P7t 2wwYLvzwXtbsVFdYCIbvQo+1+tgf8cBVWtTVgvcWXq79KO5R4F7WPVtr8Xq3HZKXOVkH hIe8z27q4zYxIC/Mu70ngKf4fzXvGom7U7Gq+ZX2XSmq7WpyWisyixhUWUDYuBjkGG+v iXXZvZGGIVTDq4R/n+QzwSuHYRFBim9Pv6UdI5RXtc9NlJAIFH48FPcZhhkJ5TNP2Fmf q00g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533VbCjYWV4oG3usssduuA3/uWIE5bOjoX6kkCsL6aKVPpsvu3Aj hu07vZgBGinmkPQjRX7NGK4GcYxtjgU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZ6BrU5hlNnVZWtu3Xou8Ha7HZIlTnoorSdFgjvcsl04jNxV8FlqmnZtSL7LctMC/tzU/ANw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:380b:: with SMTP id w11mr14773329pjb.213.1596400452663; Sun, 02 Aug 2020 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.139.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lb1sm2522725pjb.26.2020.08.02.13.34.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Aug 2020 13:34:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Ole Troan , Vasilenko Eduard Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5d793092-70b2-3002-0853-dcdbf30ccc71@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:34:05 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Middleboxes X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 20:34:15 -0000 On 03-Aug-20 00:05, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 1 Aug 2020, at 18:47, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >> >> I am still not happy that middleboxes (Firewall, Load Balancer) are di= scarded as the reasons for EH drops. >> >> Tom (Herbert) is right that =E2=80=9CFWs and middleboxes that insist o= n meddling in protocol layers beyond the networking layer where both the = standard and the Internet architecture say they are not supposed to look = at=E2=80=9D >> >> But they are! We should not ignore the reality. >> >> It is especially evident that they are among reasons for EHs drops aft= er response: >> >> > I would love to see the firewall device that is capable of processin= g ALL protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! *Reality is that firew= alls can only process what they are programmed to process which is typica= lly a very small subset of the possible protocols a host might want to us= e.* >> >> =C2=A0 >> >> It is not good to ignore/hide some type of drops that we do not like. >> > I think you have a good point.=C2=A0 >=20 > If I was implementing a function to wash traffic in front of a set of e= g DNS servers, why would I ever let any EH through? Known or unknown. >=20 > There=E2=80=99s a chicken and egg situation. Awaiting =C2=A0an across t= he Internet useful EH option.=20 Indeed. This was actually the main reason that SHIM6 failed to take off. = It was by definition useful across the Internet if it was useful at all, = and in fact it could and did successfully cross transit networks, but the= only way to get it out of and into end sites was to bypass the site fire= walls. > Apart from measuring the transparency level of the core Internet, it=E2= =80=99s unclear to me what useful conclusions we can draw from this work.= =20 Measuring the transparency of the core seems like a very good thing to do= , since the traditional Internet archictecture assumes a transparent core= =2E Regards Brian From nobody Mon Aug 3 03:26:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6B63A0DCA for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.725 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.725 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pyv3dCSS8u2h for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tools.si6networks.com (v6toolkit.go6lab.si [91.239.96.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42B013A0DC9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:10e9:dc78:74f7:a148] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:10e9:dc78:74f7:a148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tools.si6networks.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7B8740021; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:26:20 +0200 (CEST) To: Vasilenko Eduard , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:16:31 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 10:26:27 -0000 Hello, Eduard, On 1/8/20 14:02, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > I know from discussion with some carriers that some of them filter out EHs intentionally > To avoid any problems discussed in this draft. > It is definitely the reason for EHs drops, but non-technical. It is probably "Absence of use case". Ultimately, there are technical reasons behind such drops: i.e., any of the subsections from Section 6. Most likely, if EHs were innocuous, even if there wasn't a use case, folks could let them through. While it is true that there are not many use cases for EHs, there are at least to important ones: fragmentation and IPsec's ESP. And these two get dropped, too. > Additional risk and additional processing capacity should have the reward. It is just business. Indeed. As noted, even for cases where there's a use case (e.g. IPsec ESP), or fragmentation (see the numbers for fragment drops for the case of DNS servers), packets with EHs are still dropped. (me thinking out loud, and asking for more thoughts, if you wish) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 03:37:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304EC3A0DFF for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.725 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.725 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZfGPvMG9umb for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tools.si6networks.com (v6toolkit.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A13913A0DFE for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:10e9:dc78:74f7:a148] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:10e9:dc78:74f7:a148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tools.si6networks.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65BEE40021; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:37:16 +0200 (CEST) To: Vasilenko Eduard , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:36:20 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Middleboxes X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 10:37:21 -0000 Hello, Eduard, On 1/8/20 13:45, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > > I am still not happy that middleboxes (Firewall, Load Balancer) are > discarded as the reasons for EH drops. FWIW, we will include a discussion of these in the next revision of the document -- please bear with us. :-) [....] > It is especially evident that they are among reasons for EHs drops after > response: > > > I would love to see the firewall device that is capable of processing > ALL protocol headers in the IETF protocol suite! *Reality is that > firewalls can only process what they are programmed to process which is > typically a very small subset of the possible protocols a host might > want to use.* Please note that this is somewhat mixing up two different issues issues: 1) The ability to process packets 2) A filtering policy Firewalls, by definition, must perform #2. And quite normally they can do fragment reassembly, and even inspect packets above layer-4. In many cases, even if they can process a packet, they may drop the packet as a result of the filtering policy (e.g., default deny, which is typical among firewalls) -- i.e., only allow the traffic you are expected to receive. This obviously happens at the destination AS, close to the destination system. OTOH, many devices (such as modern routers) may have an operational requirement of doing things (Sections 6.2-6.4), and packets with EHs get in the way. It's not that they are meant to do a default-deny (in many cases, they actually implement a default-allow policy), but packets with EHs put them in a position that they cannot even perform a "default allow" policy, and hence they need to be dropped. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 04:36:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007403A0E96 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 04:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.927 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.927 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.626, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.998, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rn2SoruMp_JY for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 04:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87AEB3A0E94 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 04:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id o72so22055075ota.11 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 04:36:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IFnvzz5P6B2ppIC+9LZ/Jw+HC/K+GYIHlnNlkrGnPnA=; b=scjQ+djOeKywjAJ703lt7x1M4Lfbd02TdWOPjHvBIRoPYcyo3+R162A4f5inv6Rl2X lRaPa77fAULkyOc6mgltEsJ2ZdssU93+lbWdJpNJSOepIJONtgxzxuJWkbEmES45P9ut M+dY/bVxxnFcdhxTWFbHL11FbZDguyJyxe+OFAWiyvw67ZNJTV/cW4BHG/HdzCgPhbTb BoF7gUhIREVyjzJKrft+cNYzH/3rLEW0CrGIUkGkQtDdvYtQLf7/g0cYOYbzrSgdVSsk RXv4FX1k7PUglziRQFrQBiINpahb+agM6bYcg7QYKsxrCEpq0QDE+hxQykMXAeabm9HR LGDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IFnvzz5P6B2ppIC+9LZ/Jw+HC/K+GYIHlnNlkrGnPnA=; b=sUqSjYbj9oN7L+gVclaA8Rrq0bvrufZF4OvQKMOgeF9C+Qa4KN65c7Ks5bOM2wnXC1 jrKIltZlvwmS7Lf0ues6MlmKLkY1g4smDjOnBxXXP4CVx3L0QyXugk19Ftl6RwLPx3gy XYigtvMPulgqgCTOBxKbFimmix1rQ2/xCpmEfFFk7P9RdixfYSv9w68Ot5nEgiGDnk+S bF8CPV238yErY6RRZxu0MmbFlIzHw5+cWm8/jUq6zWL+wOCkJtimnRtebsottwINgMd8 /zWc1pGqbbNgp4C20i6x6auJ2Qtfiq7PohGRYlCIydF04LyHoWutLd+HJ5NgYLIQfW8P XC0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530yTgc607DtWHXN4t0aOtPiqex6mf56hqhcLYOAY7gpSMeuwSAR 4EBrwojrWqek9tbltzKzjKzDZorjdRVe4glo+FQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4ZmZ5nzHY/+gb8fT+WyYbaIlWksM2JTURJGPWLbVyqs+EXe52EudyA0FPKF5W7Rvh/qHmCzfxjlVbV7IbZmE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2661:: with SMTP id a88mr13588995otb.74.1596454561751; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:35:50 +1000 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000da73505abf78b7e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:36:04 -0000 --0000000000000da73505abf78b7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 20:26 Fernando Gont, wrote: > Hello, Eduard, > > On 1/8/20 14:02, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > > I know from discussion with some carriers that some of them filter out > EHs intentionally > > To avoid any problems discussed in this draft. > > It is definitely the reason for EHs drops, but non-technical. It is > probably "Absence of use case". > > Ultimately, there are technical reasons behind such drops: i.e., any of > the subsections from Section 6. > > Most likely, if EHs were innocuous, even if there wasn't a use case, > folks could let them through. > > While it is true that there are not many use cases for EHs, there are at > least to important ones: fragmentation I expect many network operators drop fragments because they were taught to do ACLs/packet filters similar to the following: permit tcp any any eq http permit udp any any eq dns deny ip any any I was back in the day. The focus is limited to "this is specifically what you need to do to make what you want to do to make it work" rather than also, "here are the other issues with what you're doing that you might need to consider". The fact that the above does what was exactly what was expected e.g. allows web access, gives an impression that it is 100% correct, and therefore reinforces that there isn't anything else to consider. It's only if you either go deeper into how the protocols work e.g. PMTUD, or break something and have to work out how to fix it, do you learn and realise issues with examples like above. It's quite a while since I've looked at any, from what I remember, practical network operation books and manuals are the same. Network firewall admins can be a bit worse in the sense that they can be more paranoid about blocking things they don't understand enough or don't trust e.g. blocking all of ICMP by default. I don't think it is as commonly calculated as people here might think. It's more "teach just enough to make it work". and IPsec's ESP. And these two > get dropped, too. > See above. Unless why ESP and AH should be allowed is taught, it's deny by default. > > > > Additional risk and additional processing capacity should have the > reward. It is just business. > > Indeed. > > As noted, even for cases where there's a use case (e.g. IPsec ESP), or > fragmentation (see the numbers for fragment drops for the case of DNS > servers), packets with EHs are still dropped. > > (me thinking out loud, and asking for more thoughts, if you wish) > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --0000000000000da73505abf78b7e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, 3 Aug 2020, 20:26 Fernando Gont, <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:
Hello, Eduard,

On 1/8/20 14:02, Vasilenko Eduard wrote:
> I know from discussion with some carriers that some of them filter out= EHs intentionally
> To avoid any problems discussed in this draft.
> It is definitely the reason for EHs drops, but non-technical. It is pr= obably "Absence of use case".

Ultimately, there are technical reasons behind such drops: i.e., any of the subsections from Section 6.

Most likely, if EHs were innocuous, even if there wasn't a use case, folks could let them through.

While it is true that there are not many use cases for EHs, there are at least to important ones: fragmentation


I expect man= y network operators drop fragments because they were taught to do ACLs/pack= et filters similar to the following:

permit tcp any any eq http
permit udp a= ny any eq dns
deny ip any any

I was back in the day.
=
The focus is limited to "this is specifica= lly what you need to do to make what you want to do to make it work" r= ather than also, "here are the other issues with what you're doing= that you might need to consider".

The fact that the above does what was exactly what was expe= cted e.g. allows web access, gives an impression that it is 100% correct, a= nd therefore reinforces that there isn't anything else to consider.

It's only if you either= go deeper into how the protocols work e.g. PMTUD, or break something and h= ave to work out how to fix it, do you learn and realise issues with example= s like above.

It's q= uite a while since I've looked at any, from what I remember, practical = network operation books and manuals are the same.
Network firewall admins can be a bit worse in the= sense that they can be more paranoid about blocking things they don't = understand enough or don't trust e.g. blocking all of ICMP by default.<= /div>

I don't think it is = as commonly=C2=A0 calculated as people here might think. It's more &quo= t;teach just enough to make it work".


<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">and IPsec's ESP. And these two
get dropped, too.

<= div dir=3D"auto">See above. Unless why ESP and AH should be allowed is taug= ht, it's deny by default.




> Additional risk and additional processing capacity should have the rew= ard. It is just business.

Indeed.

As noted, even for cases where there's a use case (e.g. IPsec ESP), or =
fragmentation (see the numbers for fragment drops for the case of DNS
servers), packets with EHs are still dropped.

(me thinking out loud, and asking for more thoughts, if you wish)

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op= s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--0000000000000da73505abf78b7e-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 05:58:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626EA3A08EE for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ura2BCCNtBQC for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3730D3A08E9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB4BD280332; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:58:26 +0000 (UTC) To: Mark Smith , Fernando Gont Cc: v6ops list References: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:25:43 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 12:58:33 -0000 Hello, Mark, On 3/8/20 08:35, Mark Smith wrote: [...]> > > I expect many network operators drop fragments because they were taught > to do ACLs/packet filters similar to the following: > > permit tcp any any eq http > permit udp any any eq dns > deny ip any any You'll not get away with that in IPv6, since it would break ND. That said, the above (modulo ICMPv6 and fragmentation) might seem reasonable on the edge (e.g. enterprise network), but not so much elsewhere. (From RFC7872, you'll see that not all EHs share the same drop rate. IN fact, the drop rates are proportional to the EH len...) [...] > Network firewall admins can be a bit worse in the sense that they can be > more paranoid about blocking things they don't understand enough or > don't trust e.g. blocking all of ICMP by default. When doing sysadmin, I've myself started from a default deny, and subsequently allowed things to make stuff work. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Aug 3 05:58:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB153A093B for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DU54XYl7E5uh for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EDD03A08EC for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 05:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C7E60280329; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:58:22 +0000 (UTC) To: Vasilenko Eduard , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <509253a95839479fbe9741be753ce8d5@huawei.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:10:02 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <509253a95839479fbe9741be753ce8d5@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 12:58:42 -0000 Hello, Eduard, On 1/8/20 13:45, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > There are many references to Fragmentation documents in "Previous Work" section (and in real measurements too), > But Fragmentation is no cited among drop reasons (section 4-6). > IMHO: It deserves separate bullet in the Table of Contents. I agree that we should probably say more about fragmentation. However, it would seem to me that this should be part of Section 6.1 (and maybe add a few more words to Section 6.4). That is, fragmentation is one special case where it may be impossible for systems to find the upper-layer information -- so it would seem to fit in Section Section 6.1. Thoughts? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Aug 3 06:03:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C8C3A08FA for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32niNdyVQmk8 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10F793A08E9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A6B15176099D7B2B3EC6; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:03:39 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) by lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:03:39 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:03:38 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:03:38 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Fernando Gont , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy Thread-Index: AdZoJDi1DSShQSOKR127T3+c++/N/ABQcouAAAi6LXA= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:03:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.207.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:03:44 -0000 Hi all, I do not believe that EH would ever be "for free" - it would consume PFE cy= cles (performance, energy). Therefore, every EH should have their own separate justification to be turn= ed on. If we see big drop - it means that justification has not been found yet for= particular EH. If the current situation "for no one"? IMHO: "EH success" is the situation when small set of EHs would have low dr= op rate. IPv6 Architecture should be friendly for this to happen. Other EHs should not block "chosen" EHs. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]=20 Sent: 3 =C1=D7=C7=D5=D3=D4=C1 2020 =C7. 13:17 To: Vasilenko Eduard ; v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 = - Admin Policy Hello, Eduard, On 1/8/20 14:02, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > I know from discussion with some carriers that some of them filter out=20 > EHs intentionally To avoid any problems discussed in this draft. > It is definitely the reason for EHs drops, but non-technical. It is proba= bly "Absence of use case". Ultimately, there are technical reasons behind such drops: i.e., any of the= subsections from Section 6. Most likely, if EHs were innocuous, even if there wasn't a use case, folks = could let them through. While it is true that there are not many use cases for EHs, there are at le= ast to important ones: fragmentation and IPsec's ESP. And these two get dro= pped, too. > Additional risk and additional processing capacity should have the reward= . It is just business. Indeed. As noted, even for cases where there's a use case (e.g. IPsec ESP), or frag= mentation (see the numbers for fragment drops for the case of DNS servers),= packets with EHs are still dropped. (me thinking out loud, and asking for more thoughts, if you wish) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809= 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 06:12:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0D43A091C for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rsmMZwgVsY7C for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 542D73A0918 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 032EE39A1A8A7BB6F465; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:12:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.160) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:12:40 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:12:40 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:12:39 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Fernando Gont , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation Thread-Index: AdZoH5e3mvncP8aHS4+K7PyCnHbT4QBRYNMAAAyKHlA= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:12:39 +0000 Message-ID: <05cb4504285e407fbaacee5d3c067406@huawei.com> References: <509253a95839479fbe9741be753ce8d5@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.194.254] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:12:44 -0000 Hi Fernando, I do not believe that the most basic EH (fragmentation) is dropper because = "6.1. Inability to Find Layer-4 Information". I suspect that it is because universal policy to drop all EHs, i.e. Politic= al reason. Hence, 6.1 is not the best place to squeeze fragmentation problem. If WG would decide to tell something about "Admin Policy to drop everything= ", then fragmentation could be inside, If not - then it is better to have separate bullet for fragmentation. Many people (who have not seen you previous reports) do not expect that thi= s basic thing does not work in the Internet. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fgont@si6networks.com]=20 Sent: 3 =C1=D7=C7=D5=D3=D4=C1 2020 =C7. 13:10 To: Vasilenko Eduard ; v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 = - Fragmentation Hello, Eduard, On 1/8/20 13:45, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > There are many references to Fragmentation documents in "Previous=20 > Work" section (and in real measurements too), But Fragmentation is no cit= ed among drop reasons (section 4-6). > IMHO: It deserves separate bullet in the Table of Contents. I agree that we should probably say more about fragmentation. However, it w= ould seem to me that this should be part of Section 6.1 (and maybe add a fe= w more words to Section 6.4). That is, fragmentation is one special case where it may be impossible for s= ystems to find the upper-layer information -- so it would seem to fit in Se= ction Section 6.1. Thoughts? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Aug 3 06:44:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0629B3A0A88 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bCGkUEsNarLP for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B0B43A0A87 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F32C2801BD; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:44:16 +0000 (UTC) To: Vasilenko Eduard , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6c0e835ccaa04813a3c37a1df1fe0c40@huawei.com> <44b593ec-d87a-d4d9-96b1-888abea77e25@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <44d0a7b4-cc09-3311-7f97-e4c14608b756@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:35:20 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Admin Policy X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:44:22 -0000 Hello, Eduard, On 3/8/20 10:03, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > Hi all, > I do not believe that EH would ever be "for free" - it would consume PFE cycles (performance, energy). In principle, I agree. The Internet architecture assumes that intermediate systems only need to look into the destination address of a packet to make a forwarding decision. In such (theoretical) architecture, EHs would be "for free" -- or, at the very lest, free for the network (and only possibly expensive for the endpoints). However, the reality is that intermediate systems quite often do need to look at layer-4 values to make a forwarding decision. Therein lies the problem -- EHs are not "free" anymore. > IMHO: "EH success" is the situation when small set of EHs would have low drop rate. > IPv6 Architecture should be friendly for this to happen. The variable-length daisy-chain-like structure of IPv6 packets is, by definition, not friendly to intermediate systems that need to find layer-4 information. That's why -- besides possible filtering policies -- EHs are dropped. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 06:44:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDBB3A0AF9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YhWc1Fczhiq2 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 757AA3A0AAC for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ECB94280478; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:44:22 +0000 (UTC) To: Vasilenko Eduard , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <509253a95839479fbe9741be753ce8d5@huawei.com> <05cb4504285e407fbaacee5d3c067406@huawei.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <2f8d8a95-395f-7811-98d1-28cce7c6ca17@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:38:02 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05cb4504285e407fbaacee5d3c067406@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 - Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:44:35 -0000 On 3/8/20 10:12, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > Hi Fernando, > I do not believe that the most basic EH (fragmentation) is dropper because "6.1. Inability to Find Layer-4 Information". > I suspect that it is because universal policy to drop all EHs, i.e. Political reason. As you'll see in e.g. RFC7872, not all EHs have the same drop rate. -- for instance, for each EH type, the drop rate is proportional to the EH length/size. > Many people (who have not seen you previous reports) do not expect that this basic thing does not work in the Internet. The same can be said about IPsec and others... -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Aug 3 07:22:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7DB3A0B22; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:22:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAO/XoAAA6T6+D//9BAgIAAcUNg//yt9vA= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:22:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com>, <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: E8B40F3166717CC7F673BF1FEB56136C163E300CC19CF4F3CF5CE000E83A99092000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b5043a5446914cb5b12ed76401359c7eboeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:22:57 -0000 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From nobody Mon Aug 3 08:38:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A539D3A0C29; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BST1LY7WB8VO; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70C6D3A0C22; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABDOFgIAAQtMA Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:37:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com>, <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.199.151] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_e743130cc74548e0b01a9b9fe27a601fhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:38:00 -0000 --_000_e743130cc74548e0b01a9b9fe27a601fhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_e743130cc74548e0b01a9b9fe27a601fhuaweicom_-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 08:51:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2523A0DC7; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:51:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GsJ1LAnKdXV; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:51:47 -0700 (PDT) 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AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAO/XoAAA6T6+D//9BAgIAAcUNg//yt9vCABzCWAIAAcoxw Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:51:33 +0000 Message-ID: <392f45a9e9c842e28ffedbe8bc50e086@boeing.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com>, <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 97E5C0CC62588D5A021730E1D37EE0E3358DF8B07E0FD77F9646ABA6716CF6A62000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_392f45a9e9c842e28ffedbe8bc50e086boeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:51:49 -0000 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X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3XZtGMGkmT6; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7793A0F3E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305) (Smail #157) id m1k2dOD-0000KyC; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:32:41 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: 6man From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com>, <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <392f45a9e9c842e28ffedbe8bc50e086@boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:51:33 +0000 ." <392f45a9e9c842e28ffedbe8bc50e086@boeing.com> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:32:37 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:32:53 -0000 > Thanks for your opinion, Ed, but it does not apply for the OMNI > use case because > > the keys only need to be known to a fixed (and finite) set of > Servers which can > > keep in sync via a shared filesystem. Maybe we should first look at which application domains we want to discuss. For most people, if you have a fixed set of servers connected to a single LAN, then you typically don't have a security problem with ND. Of course, there could still be networks where ND security is an issue even if all devices are known. I think the common case for ND security issues is a an ethernet (or ethernet-like wifi) where untrusted devices can connect. However for the common case where bridges just accept any MAC address, what prevents the attacker from sending packets with the MAC address of a victim? Of course there is the special case where bridges lock the MAC addresses of devices connected to ports, but in those cases, bridges could also lock the IPv6 address and otherwise limit ND traffic. The easiest way to solve the issue for small networks is to give each host a private vlan. The would break multicast, but multicast in an untrusted environment is probably not such a great idea anyhow. From nobody Mon Aug 3 09:34:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DEC3A0F44; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i7N0hCp61UZM; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66FFD3A0FB0; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52E2A2802DE; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:33:28 +0000 (UTC) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: v6ops list , 6man References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:06:10 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:34:14 -0000 On 3/8/20 11:22, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Here’s another think about SEND. RFC3971 SEND says that it works in > conjunction with Cryptographically Generated addresses (CGA) per RFC3972. But, CGAs are > cumbersome to work with as the source and destination addresses of IPv6 packets, > and SEND hints that it can be used without CGA but does not tell how to do so. Of the top of my head, CGAs are a core part of send. > But then, RFC4380 offers a “poor-man’s” alternative to SEND/CGA. It > places a message authentication code in the encapsulation headers of IPv6 ND messages so > that the messages can pass a rudimentary authentication check. You mean the Teredo spec? If so, I don't think it includes any sort of poor-man's SEND-CGA. > So someone with > security experience please help me out here – is RFC4380 authentication an acceptably > secure  replacement for SEND/CGA that might be easier to work with and less > cumbersome? Nope. Tee point of CGAs is that they allow you to prove address ownership. There's nothing in RFC4380 that provides the same or similar functionality. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 09:45:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE933A1006; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19THZ8gZK1Cu; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 608643A0F8C; 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Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:45:35 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1979.3; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:45:33 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:45:33 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Fernando Gont , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAO/XoAAA6T6+D//9BAgIAAcUNg//yt9vCABzh8AIAAbPyQ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:45:33 +0000 Message-ID: <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 81A8C2ED568CCE03CA0CA5DD9A25E17051BFBA2A11F0B581BF4D5E2F010C61FD2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:45:53 -0000 SGkgRmVybmFuZG8sDQoNCkl0IGhhcyBjb21lIHRvIG15IGF0dGVudGlvbiB0aGF0IG15IG1lc3Nh Z2UgcmVzcG9uc2UgZm9ybWF0dGluZyBoYXMgYmVjb21lDQp1bndpZWxkeSwgc28gSSBhbSBsZWF2 aW5nIGJpZyBzcGFjZXMgaW50ZW50aW9uYWxseSBzbyBmb2xrcyBjYW4gc2VlIHdoZXJlIG15DQpy ZXNwb25zZXMgZmFsbCAtIHNlZSBiZWxvdzoNCg0KRnJlZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVz c2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IEZlcm5hbmRvIEdvbnQgW21haWx0bzpmZXJuYW5kb0Bnb250LmNv bS5hcl0NCj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBBdWd1c3QgMDMsIDIwMjAgOTowNiBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVt cGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgPEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+OyBQYXNjYWwgVGh1 YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIDxwdGh1YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb20+DQo+IENjOiB2Nm9wcyBsaXN0IDx2 Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZz47IDZtYW4gPGlwdjZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbdjZv cHNdIFtFWFRFUk5BTF0gUmU6IEltcHJvdmluZyBORCBzZWN1cml0eQ0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBtZXNz YWdlIHdhcyBzZW50IGZyb20gb3V0c2lkZSBvZiBCb2VpbmcuIFBsZWFzZSBkbyBub3QgY2xpY2sg bGlua3Mgb3Igb3BlbiBhdHRhY2htZW50cyB1bmxlc3MgeW91IHJlY29nbml6ZSB0aGUgc2VuZGVy IGFuZA0KPiBrbm93IHRoYXQgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgaXMgc2FmZS4NCj4gT24gMy84LzIwIDExOjIy LCBUZW1wbGluIChVUyksIEZyZWQgTCB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBIZXJl4oCZcyBhbm90aGVyIHRoaW5r IGFib3V0IFNFTkQuIFJGQzM5NzEgU0VORCBzYXlzIHRoYXQgaXQgd29ya3MgaW4NCj4gPiBjb25q dW5jdGlvbiB3aXRoIENyeXB0b2dyYXBoaWNhbGx5IEdlbmVyYXRlZCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgKENHQSkg cGVyIFJGQzM5NzIuIEJ1dCwgQ0dBcyBhcmUNCj4gPiBjdW1iZXJzb21lIHRvIHdvcmsgd2l0aCBh cyB0aGUgc291cmNlIGFuZCBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbiBhZGRyZXNzZXMgb2YgSVB2NiBwYWNrZXRzLA0K PiA+IGFuZCBTRU5EIGhpbnRzIHRoYXQgaXQgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgd2l0aG91dCBDR0EgYnV0IGRv ZXMgbm90IHRlbGwgaG93IHRvIGRvIHNvLg0KPiANCj4gT2YgdGhlIHRvcCBvZiBteSBoZWFkLCBD R0FzIGFyZSBhIGNvcmUgcGFydCBvZiBzZW5kLg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNClRoYXQgaXMgZmluZTsgd2Ug Y2FuIGFjY29tbW9kYXRlIENHQXMgaW4gT01OSSwgY3VtYmVyc29tZSBhcyB0aGV5IGFyZS4NCkkg aGF2ZSB0aGlzIG9uIG15IFRPRE8gbGlzdCBmb3IgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIGFkb3B0aW9uIGNhbGwuDQoN Cg0KDQoNCg0KPiA+IEJ1dCB0aGVuLCBSRkM0MzgwIG9mZmVycyBhIOKAnHBvb3ItbWFu4oCZc+KA nSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZSB0byBTRU5EL0NHQS4gSXQNCj4gPiBwbGFjZXMgYSBtZXNzYWdlIGF1dGhl bnRpY2F0aW9uIGNvZGUgaW4gdGhlIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gaGVhZGVycyBvZiBJUHY2IE5EIG1l c3NhZ2VzIHNvDQo+ID4gdGhhdCB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZXMgY2FuIHBhc3MgYSBydWRpbWVudGFyeSBh dXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBjaGVjay4NCj4gDQo+IFlvdSBtZWFuIHRoZSBUZXJlZG8gc3BlYz8gSWYg c28sIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgaXQgaW5jbHVkZXMgYW55IHNvcnQgb2YNCj4gcG9vci1tYW4ncyBT RU5ELUNHQS4NCg0KDQoNCkl0IHByb3ZpZGVzIGZvciBtZXNzYWdlIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uLCBh bmQgaXQgaXMgd2lkZWx5LWRlcGxveWVkIHdoaWNoIHN1Z2dlc3RzDQp0byBtZSB0aGF0IHRoZSB2 ZW5kb3JzIHdobyBzdXBwb3J0IGl0IGJlbGlldmUgaXQgaXMgc2VjdXJlLiBTbywgaWYgaXQgaXMg c2VjdXJlIGVub3VnaA0KZm9yIFJGQzQzODAsIHRoZW4gc2hvdWxkbid0IGl0IGFsc28gYmUgc2Vj dXJlIGVub3VnaCBmb3IgT01OST8NCiANCg0KDQoNCj4gPiBTbyBzb21lb25lIHdpdGgNCj4gPiBz ZWN1cml0eSBleHBlcmllbmNlIHBsZWFzZSBoZWxwIG1lIG91dCBoZXJlIOKAkyBpcyBSRkM0Mzgw IGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIGFuIGFjY2VwdGFibHkNCj4gPiBzZWN1cmUgwqByZXBsYWNlbWVudCBm b3IgU0VORC9DR0EgdGhhdCBtaWdodCBiZSBlYXNpZXIgdG8gd29yayB3aXRoIGFuZCBsZXNzDQo+ ID4gY3VtYmVyc29tZT8NCj4gDQo+IE5vcGUuIFRlZSBwb2ludCBvZiBDR0FzIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhl eSBhbGxvdyB5b3UgdG8gcHJvdmUgYWRkcmVzcw0KPiBvd25lcnNoaXAuIFRoZXJlJ3Mgbm90aGlu ZyBpbiBSRkM0MzgwIHRoYXQgcHJvdmlkZXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgb3Igc2ltaWxhcg0KPiBmdW5jdGlv bmFsaXR5Lg0KDQoNCg0KDQpXaHkgZG8gd2UgaGF2ZSB0byBwcm92ZSBhZGRyZXNzIG93bmVyc2hp cCBhbmQgdXNlIGEgd2hhY2t5IGFkZHJlc3MgZm9ybWF0IGxpa2UNCkNHQT8gVGhlcmUgaXMgbm90 aGluZyBpbiB0aGUgT01OSSBzcGVjIHRoYXQgbmVlZHMgb3Igd2FudHMgQ0dBcyBpbiBhbnkgZmFz aGlvbg0KdW5sZXNzIHRoZXkgYXJlIGFic29sdXRlbHkgcmVxdWlyZWQgZm9yIHNlY3VyaXR5LiBJ c24ndCBpdCBlbm91Z2ggdG8gcHJvdmUgbWVzc2FnZQ0KYXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gdXNpbmcgdGhl IG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgb2YgUkZDNDM4MCB3aXRob3V0IGhhdmluZyB0byBhY2NvbW1vZGF0ZQ0KdGhl IGV4Y2VzcyBiYWdnYWdlIG9mIENHQXM/Pw0KDQoNCg0KDQo+IFRoYW5rcywNCj4gLS0NCj4gRmVy bmFuZG8gR29udA0KPiBlLW1haWw6IGZlcm5hbmRvQGdvbnQuY29tLmFyIHx8IGZnb250QHNpNm5l dHdvcmtzLmNvbQ0KPiBQR1AgRmluZ2VycHJpbnQ6IDc4MDkgODRGNSAzMjJFIDQ1QzcgRjFDOSAz OTQ1IDk2RUUgQTlFRiBEMDc2IEZGRjENCj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 3 10:03:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332423A0F72 for ; 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Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k2dqT-0003jB-MX for v6ops@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 10:01:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 3832 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2020 17:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.104]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.61]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 3 Aug 2020 17:01:53 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Christian Huitema Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:01:52 -0700 Message-Id: References: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.99 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.08) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0fni+3cnVNNYyS96zEouVZ2pSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVNc5mNvODGjeU 2nbPWOdyQUTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDfdTU6Eee5z1rO+RpJLT+hJj9 EvBvwu01uVCaGVBWGqu1aBM27N5dJZmBWDSp5Ek22rBNMmEsKEibQwSU1xBeOHButNDpi1WUXRkr He1vFsYm1aGKgRFqmjZjxZofiz4rgKKlg5rRfJw9pxA0+9OX6byme9ldZJ7uNXfg/GfS8fXOC4kn OJkMS8NGDKsP9r3Khy7LI0kfFnXdPP6btp4oBeJDeKRq5oPj2hFJhLx+qI3HlR3ootg7OlA3N5WN re/oppAGOX5cHTu1yz4pRT/9FGrxEaaKeSxe0Wrx6M4G5/WoLsdfEoJI0BNUQ4KpaNyNCwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwkDMc9xayd+oZJo2heFY+g6kVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw 5rdY2rW50fd1ekaDpmIWc1Vmt3mnxMTQMQWbvBqEXskTQn6USYs98Imn+lZXe3dwYfgVB1xo6dCf BaU/iegBU8ZonAyCrFuSEmRFyS+0x47b4nuZrRf7bMi0WRR6pZ+nWezee/+BgtOydTbSiiEBGRZX 0SU68ek9wyYNR7nSKrZbQsAM8hGlAkv+YXlQiOyIRazNjLvclnGzlTC8ZgkR3laIWqvAxiBHuIuS y5fCAlEkm3xMJTBKIWbp41V1hrEnGFACVO3tx78u0bG7If2TCVS9WRS/sHv/i+pa5WOiIZruMcQY 8VWcluooNQQvGrrXJlffncYFDRVcOLM39ai6q8sR25hAoclepJn2+X3/xugvJOYIJd4MvQ0Nf4Ec bvHO1diDanHV9KirFAIIecsyj+YNTo81GR+jDXFsz/ZQnbbTizvwlZsrbltGiZoUh+c+5pFVgpT1 b21uZVckGp0ccOa2XhkGbmsUNPNkere1WheNsVXmhO8BzADiszcWR9bz/SDtF09JpSbuuCeiIDK0 C/0= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:03:21 -0000 > On Aug 3, 2020, at 9:35 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/8/20 11:22, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> ... >=20 >=20 >=20 >> But then, RFC4380 offers a =E2=80=9Cpoor-man=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D alternati= ve to SEND/CGA. It places a message authentication code in the encapsulation= headers of IPv6 ND messages so that the messages can pass a rudimentary aut= hentication check. >=20 > You mean the Teredo spec? If so, I don't think it includes any sort of poo= r-man's SEND-CGA. Configuration mistakes were a big concern during the design of Teredo, and t= hat's a reason why Teredo embeds continuity tests. But these tests will not r= esist an on-path attacker, let alone an on-link attacker. >=20 >=20 >> ... -- Christian Huitema=20= From nobody Mon Aug 3 10:10:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id A22263A0F6F; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC603A0F72 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4RhINsGl3Dn for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDD583A0F6B for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id g6so27841238ljn.11 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=INIhTL3KDDX0GYmoc87ksFHL6LmqAJHZc2tmTrzygQs=; b=0F/KGvW1i9AAqfizkLjMoOnqwNVPuCiny8iPmy7zQDZqcz+HlZOqI42FOKsKehsnpK GGOy8Bmy4D0m4l2KLaPnGLvOHhFvd+T6Ic/1Jew5PedIzy5eQaUMDwOFR0tXCMwN3fAa sSXw5/3K0FWrwz4yFtOYno0EYioqUD1xay7tDBmAXCHQ0Z338mjHus47c/XgYce6I9Od arNRJ3En8/YXUB1J4kPQVlgIdBsVt4YDIxFrbUFtoarFUMijsJcVfTmm78JsA9r6kU3M Kil/LgXRk9aEv3HmJITcmxouavGMKjYPXntEdwJInZb8WD76pYSV0cKTDfSxjNKwjCeS cOYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=INIhTL3KDDX0GYmoc87ksFHL6LmqAJHZc2tmTrzygQs=; b=ZMyxDMv86O2Q5FrruSLdacAbY6pzVlPX20RgBKivoAZa/Ei+ps6lO/SGCl3IkI5ehb S1QhyYNUyva4HfIFs5N0902L0/jVE3ILKreC+XYujyS+ZTNP/HZY+j99Mmxea2znzVoA iUY6vb7Gbr3hVNJKVs9D8pyOkIo2VZkXDkW2rEpxmhC45hX76kWHX7N2XdRXA3yNWnhD UeL3LXWwrDZ9GRtciLS14zZtVNK8ShNs6ZEcmq9UosPSuKaHGM4jn7ZIsmR9405VeBuM 97M8Ae9XqBGjXY3v8LUVtML0MxmKoB5J+LFzEabyVCr7nY4bvOciaelhEEkBjO1E70O8 xGMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tYaSBoy4ty9U7DfeiZumYJfX8DQSSDhuREKvwyTYPQUI1SLUw HWgChmsik6EC5Dx9Unzm6SRP7EBB81LTpfBgIihKCVJpiV0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZRxH1LpUL5s9BjYHI0GJcn6wMqcIYi5pYjj+VgV7cO0tVNHmMIpAocBiV2b8crsacWj+d6aIoEh5kdcq/l6s= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8e95:: with SMTP id z21mr8756775ljk.143.1596474602507; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:09:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@go6.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, rbonica@juniper.net, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, warren@kumari.net, rwilton@cisco.com, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200803171009.A22263A0F6F@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum, draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:10:10 -0000 Hi there all (and yes, I know that there is overlap!), Just a quick note to let you know that I'll be getting to these shortly - IETF weeks was busy, and I'm digging out from under a pile of mail, etc. W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Mon Aug 3 10:20:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F243A0F80; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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AQHWabfcOJVz1//YZ0CFL7IAG+5kuKkmoJmQ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:20:24 +0000 Message-ID: <2bef98c10f194c8f8c1a8a8601082966@boeing.com> References: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 331DE61A1E514DD5EB3724A328AAD706604BACE1540A51B08555B22101491DF52000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:20:45 -0000 Q2hyaXN0aWFuLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IENocmlz dGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIFttYWlsdG86aHVpdGVtYUBodWl0ZW1hLm5ldF0NCj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5 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biB0aGUgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbg0KPiBoZWFkZXJzIG9mIElQdjYgTkQgbWVzc2FnZXMgc28gdGhh dCB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZXMgY2FuIHBhc3MgYSBydWRpbWVudGFyeSBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBjaGVj ay4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IFlvdSBtZWFuIHRoZSBUZXJlZG8gc3BlYz8gSWYgc28sIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhp bmsgaXQgaW5jbHVkZXMgYW55IHNvcnQgb2YgcG9vci1tYW4ncyBTRU5ELUNHQS4NCj4gDQo+IENv bmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gbWlzdGFrZXMgd2VyZSBhIGJpZyBjb25jZXJuIGR1cmluZyB0aGUgZGVzaWdu IG9mIFRlcmVkbywgYW5kIHRoYXQncyBhIHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgVGVyZWRvIGVtYmVkcyBjb250aW51 aXR5IHRlc3RzLiBCdXQNCj4gdGhlc2UgdGVzdHMgd2lsbCBub3QgcmVzaXN0IGFuIG9uLXBhdGgg YXR0YWNrZXIsIGxldCBhbG9uZSBhbiBvbi1saW5rIGF0dGFja2VyLg0KDQoNCg0KV2hhdCBoYXMg YmVlbiB0aGUgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSB3aXRoIFJGQzQzODAgc2VjdXJpdHkgaW4tdGhlLXdpbGQ/IElz IGl0IGNvbnNpZGVyZWQNCiJzZWN1cmUgZW5vdWdoIiBvdXQgb2YgdGhlIGJveD8gT3IsIGlmIHlv dSBoYWQgdG8gZG8gaXQgYWdhaW4gd291bGQgeW91IGluY29ycG9yYXRlDQpzb21ldGhpbmcgIm1v cmUgc2VjdXJlIiBsaWtlIFNFTkQvQ0dBPw0KDQpUaGFua3MgLSBGcmVkDQoNCg0KPiAtLSBDaHJp c3RpYW4gSHVpdGVtYQ0KDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 3 11:02:14 2020 Return-Path: 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with ESMTP id 522212D315CB6A5BF080; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:02:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) by lhreml719-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.70) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:02:08 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:02:07 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:02:07 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , Christian Huitema , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///1REAgAAFLgCAADvHMA== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:02:07 +0000 Message-ID: <7a5dddaa44d349d4bba86af063b980a5@huawei.com> References: <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <2bef98c10f194c8f8c1a8a8601082966@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <2bef98c10f194c8f8c1a8a8601082966@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.125] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:02:13 -0000 SGkgRnJlZCwNClNFTkQgYXNzdW1lcyBSU0EgIlJTQVNTQS1QS0NTMS12MV81ICBhbGdvcml0aG0g 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ESMTPS id 073IaGgE003654 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:36:16 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1979.3; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:36:15 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:36:15 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Vasilenko Eduard , Christian Huitema , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZpw9jXM9kteZhQTD+URMbCjzIWyw== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:36:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7eac263de7fd4616b78835b32fa98333@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 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aXN0IGFuIG9uLXBhdGggYXR0YWNrZXIsIGxldCBhbG9uZSBhbiBvbi1saW5rDQo+IGF0dGFja2Vy Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBXaGF0IGhhcyBiZWVuIHRoZSBleHBlcmllbmNlIHdpdGggUkZDNDM4 MCBzZWN1cml0eSBpbi10aGUtd2lsZD8gSXMgaXQgY29uc2lkZXJlZCAic2VjdXJlIGVub3VnaCIg b3V0IG9mIHRoZSBib3g/IE9yLCBpZiB5b3UgaGFkIHRvDQo+IGRvIGl0IGFnYWluIHdvdWxkIHlv dSBpbmNvcnBvcmF0ZSBzb21ldGhpbmcgIm1vcmUgc2VjdXJlIiBsaWtlIFNFTkQvQ0dBPw0KPiAN Cj4gVGhhbmtzIC0gRnJlZA0KPiANCj4gDQo+ID4gLS0gQ2hyaXN0aWFuIEh1aXRlbWENCj4gDQo+ IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3Bz IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 3 11:53:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B3B3A0A3D; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:53:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UR2zKUFZdYzJ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 160DE3A0A3C; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:50ff:5211:f841:308c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB11F28028C; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:53:02 +0000 (UTC) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: v6ops list , 6man References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:52:35 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:53:12 -0000 Hi, Fred, On 3/8/20 13:45, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: [....] >> This message was sent from outside of Boeing. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and >> know that the content is safe. >> On 3/8/20 11:22, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>> Here’s another think about SEND. RFC3971 SEND says that it works in >>> conjunction with Cryptographically Generated addresses (CGA) per RFC3972. But, CGAs are >>> cumbersome to work with as the source and destination addresses of IPv6 packets, >>> and SEND hints that it can be used without CGA but does not tell how to do so. >> >> Of the top of my head, CGAs are a core part of send. > > That is fine; we can accommodate CGAs in OMNI, cumbersome as they are. > I have this on my TODO list for after the adoption call. Why "cumbersome"? >>> But then, RFC4380 offers a “poor-man’s” alternative to SEND/CGA. It >>> places a message authentication code in the encapsulation headers of IPv6 ND messages so >>> that the messages can pass a rudimentary authentication check. >> >> You mean the Teredo spec? If so, I don't think it includes any sort of >> poor-man's SEND-CGA. > > It provides for message authentication, But what's special about SEND/CGAs is that they tie the address to a key... > and it is widely-deployed which suggests > to me that the vendors who support it believe it is secure. I'm sure others probably know better, but... I think Teredo is mostly MS + Miredo. (when it comes to implementation) And Re: deployment, IIRC Teredo has been phased out. > So, if it is secure enough for RFC4380, then shouldn't it also be secure enough for OMNI? I believe Auth in Teredo is a totally different thing from SEND/CGAs. Regarding OMIN, I Haven read the draft/spec, yet... >>> So someone with >>> security experience please help me out here – is RFC4380 authentication an acceptably >>> secure  replacement for SEND/CGA that might be easier to work with and less >>> cumbersome? >> >> Nope. Tee point of CGAs is that they allow you to prove address >> ownership. There's nothing in RFC4380 that provides the same or similar >> functionality. > > Why do we have to prove address ownership Well, that's one of the goals of SEND/CGAs. :-) > and use a whacky address format like CGA? The *address format* is not really whacky. At the end of the day, it's a random number, with the specific property that it's part of the hash of a public key. looking at a CGA, you probably wouldn't be able to tell CGA from RFC7217. > There is nothing in the OMNI spec that needs or wants CGAs in any fashion > unless they are absolutely required for security. Isn't it enough to prove message > authentication using the mechanisms of RFC4380 without having to accommodate > the excess baggage of CGAs?? Both are different things. One thing is to authenticate the contents of a message. And a different one is to be able to tell that one specific host is "authorized" to use one specific address... -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Aug 3 12:56:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EC53A10E0; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:56:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org 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Thubert (pthubert)" CC: v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAO/XoAAA6T6+D//9BAgIAAcUNg//yt9vCABzh8AIAAbPyQ///Bg4CAAGxUwA== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:55:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 6BB4A154522EF7C36A5ED9A512ED8A920B9F421BFB65F56EFB48A59A744B565D2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 19:56:10 -0000 SGkgRmVybmFuZG8sDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRmVy bmFuZG8gR29udCBbbWFpbHRvOmZlcm5hbmRvQGdvbnQuY29tLmFyXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25kYXks IEF1Z3VzdCAwMywgMjAyMCAxMTo1MyBBTQ0KPiBUbzogVGVtcGxpbiAoVVMpLCBGcmVkIEwgPEZy ZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20+OyBQYXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIDxwdGh1 YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb20+DQo+IENjOiB2Nm9wcyBsaXN0IDx2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZz47IDZtYW4g PGlwdjZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbdjZvcHNdIFtFWFRFUk5BTF0gUmU6IElt cHJvdmluZyBORCBzZWN1cml0eQ0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIHdhcyBzZW50IGZyb20gb3V0 c2lkZSBvZiBCb2VpbmcuIFBsZWFzZSBkbyBub3QgY2xpY2sgbGlua3Mgb3Igb3BlbiBhdHRhY2ht ZW50cyB1bmxlc3MgeW91IHJlY29nbml6ZSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyIGFuZA0KPiBrbm93IHRoYXQgdGhl 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cmNlIGFuZCBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbg0KYWRkcmVzcy4gSXMgdGhhdCBnb29kIGVub3VnaD8NCg0KVGhh bmtzIC0gRnJlZA0KDQoNCg0KDQo+IC0tDQo+IEZlcm5hbmRvIEdvbnQNCj4gZS1tYWlsOiBmZXJu YW5kb0Bnb250LmNvbS5hciB8fCBmZ29udEBzaTZuZXR3b3Jrcy5jb20NCj4gUEdQIEZpbmdlcnBy aW50OiA3ODA5IDg0RjUgMzIyRSA0NUM3IEYxQzkgMzk0NSA5NkVFIEE5RUYgRDA3NiBGRkYxDQo+ IA0KPiANCg0K From nobody Mon Aug 3 13:02:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112EB3A10F0 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oWyWDYUN80KF for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frogstar.hit.bme.hu (frogstar.hit.bme.hu [IPv6:2001:738:2001:4020::2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41F1D3A10EF for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (host-79-121-44-26.kabelnet.hu [79.121.44.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by frogstar.hit.bme.hu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 073K2L0a018499 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:02:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lencse@hit.bme.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: frogstar.hit.bme.hu: Host host-79-121-44-26.kabelnet.hu [79.121.44.26] claimed to be [192.168.1.113] To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lencse_G=c3=a1bor?= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:02:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.4 at frogstar.hit.bme.hu X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: pass (frogstar.hit.bme.hu: authenticated connection) receiver=frogstar.hit.bme.hu; client-ip=79.121.44.26; helo=[192.168.1.113]; envelope-from=lencse@hit.bme.hu; x-software=spfmilter 2.001 http://www.acme.com/software/spfmilter/ with libspf2-1.2.10; X-DCC--Metrics: frogstar.hit.bme.hu; whitelist X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 152.66.248.44 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Off topic: Teredo sunset -- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 20:02:32 -0000 > I'm sure others probably know better, but... I think Teredo is mostly > MS + Miredo. (when it comes to implementation) > > And Re: deployment, IIRC Teredo has been phased out. > BTW: Did Teredo sunset ( https://ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-5.pdf ) actually happen? At least the domain name on its last slide does not seem to resolve: lencse@dev:~$ host teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com Host teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) I am curious. Best regards, Gábor From nobody Mon Aug 3 15:25:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B4B3A0CB0 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:24:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W5cqMz3hY5bo for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F0A73A0CA9 for ; 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Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:24:44 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1979.3; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:24:42 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:24:41 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: =?utf-8?B?TGVuY3NlIEfDoWJvcg==?= , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Off topic: Teredo sunset -- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWaeTh3ilGcF+V0UaSTLZyGoUr/w== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:24:41 +0000 Message-ID: <02d2c251ce2f45d388725d11ebd85a6f@boeing.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 1C636B07E31736060735AC90748AFCA80F609E64F72A1A9549BA21C50409AF8C2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Off topic: Teredo sunset -- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 22:24:56 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogdjZvcHMgW21haWx0bzp2 Nm9wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTGVuY3NlIEfDoWJvcg0KPiBTZW50 OiBNb25kYXksIEF1Z3VzdCAwMywgMjAyMCAxOjAyIFBNDQo+IFRvOiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbdjZvcHNdIE9mZiB0b3BpYzogVGVyZWRvIHN1bnNldCAtLSBSZTogW0VYVEVS TkFMXSBSZTogSW1wcm92aW5nIE5EIHNlY3VyaXR5DQo+IA0KPiBUaGlzIG1lc3NhZ2Ugd2FzIHNl bnQgZnJvbSBvdXRzaWRlIG9mIEJvZWluZy4gUGxlYXNlIGRvIG5vdCBjbGljayBsaW5rcyBvciBv cGVuIGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIHVubGVzcyB5b3UgcmVjb2duaXplIHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgYW5kDQo+IGtu b3cgdGhhdCB0aGUgY29udGVudCBpcyBzYWZlLg0KPiANCj4gPiBJJ20gc3VyZSBvdGhlcnMgcHJv YmFibHkga25vdyBiZXR0ZXIsIGJ1dC4uLiBJIHRoaW5rIFRlcmVkbyBpcyBtb3N0bHkNCj4gPiBN UyArIE1pcmVkby4gKHdoZW4gaXQgY29tZXMgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24pDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBB bmQgUmU6IGRlcGxveW1lbnQsIElJUkMgVGVyZWRvIGhhcyBiZWVuIHBoYXNlZCBvdXQuDQo+ID4N Cj4gDQo+IEJUVzoNCj4gDQo+IERpZCBUZXJlZG8gc3Vuc2V0ICgNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9pZXRmLm9y Zy9wcm9jZWVkaW5ncy84Ny9zbGlkZXMvc2xpZGVzLTg3LXY2b3BzLTUucGRmICkgYWN0dWFsbHkN Cj4gaGFwcGVuPw0KPiANCj4gQXQgbGVhc3QgdGhlIGRvbWFpbiBuYW1lIG9uIGl0cyBsYXN0IHNs aWRlIGRvZXMgbm90IHNlZW0gdG8gcmVzb2x2ZToNCj4gDQo+IGxlbmNzZUBkZXY6fiQgaG9zdCB0 ZXJlZG8uaXB2Ni5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tDQo+IEhvc3QgdGVyZWRvLmlwdjYubWljcm9zb2Z0LmNv bSBub3QgZm91bmQ6IDMoTlhET01BSU4pDQpbPl0gDQoNCg0KDQpQZXJoYXBzIGdvbmUsIGJ1dCBu b3QgZm9yZ290dGVuIC0gUkZDNDM4MCBpcyBzdGlsbCBhIHByb3Bvc2VkIHN0YW5kYXJkIGFuZA0K c3BlY2lmaWVzIGEgVURQL0lQIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZm9ybWF0IHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIGFkb3B0 ZWQgYnkgb3RoZXIgc2VydmljZQ0Kc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbnMuIFRoZSBvdGhlciBzZXJ2aWNlcyBh cmUgZWFzaWx5IGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQgZnJvbSBUZXJlZG8gdGhyb3VnaA0KdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBh IHNlcnZpY2Utc3BlY2lmaWMgSUFOQS1hc3NpZ25lZCBVRFAgcG9ydCBudW1iZXIuDQoNClRoYW5r cyAtIEZyZWQNCg0KDQoNCg0KPiBJIGFtIGN1cmlvdXMuDQo+IA0KPiBCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ IA0KPiBHw6Fib3INCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 3 15:52:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D1E3A1144 for ; 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charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Joseph Touch In-Reply-To: <02d2c251ce2f45d388725d11ebd85a6f@boeing.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:52:40 -0700 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> <02d2c251ce2f45d388725d11ebd85a6f@boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Off topic: Teredo sunset -- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 22:52:53 -0000 > On Aug 3, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > Perhaps gone, but not forgotten - RFC4380 is still a proposed standard = and > specifies a UDP/IP encapsulation format that can be adopted by other = service > specifications. The other services are easily distinguished from = Teredo through > the use of a service-specific IANA-assigned UDP port number. Thanks for the segue. Fred brought this issue to my attention recently = and we addressed it in a presentation at TSVWG last week on UDP options. RFC4380 makes some claims about =E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2=80=9D between = UDP length and IP length - without defining the term. *IF* that means = that the two point to the same =E2=80=9Cend of packet=E2=80=9D, then it = would prohibit use of UDP options as they=E2=80=99re now being defined. RFC6081 goes further and tries to explicitly define =E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2= =80=9D as per above (which it should not - esp. because it never updated = RFC 768 or RFC 1122 accordingly) *AND* introduces another variant where = the IP length undershoots the UDP length =E2=80=9Cend=E2=80=9D, which is = nonsensical esp. because it would interact badly with IP devices (which = couldn=E2=80=99t forward the UDP overshoot without parsing into the UDP = packet to process IP). This will be discussed in the pending updated UDP options text, but the = intent is to correct these errors (i.e., UDP length can =E2=80=9Cundershoo= t=E2=80=9D the IP length, which is where UDP options go, and can never = overshoot as per RFC6081). FYI. Joe= From nobody Mon Aug 3 16:57:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C673A1185; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FeBApgV5Uf68; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B207B3A1186; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB6E389A0; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3R2FeqftzdXV; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7AC38999; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31FC63E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Templin \(US\)\, Fred L" cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , "Mark Smith" , v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 23:57:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > I wish this group could open its eyes. ND as defined in the last > century is not suited for modern fabrics, virtual machines and > wireless. It is a pain for silicon-based forwarding. Time to upgrade is > overdue. You are right! We either need SEND (RFC3971), or some technology that addresses the same use case (RFC3756). We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router. Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in wifi networks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just leverage that. (ND is just wasted effort on encrypted wifi in my opinion) > There is nothing broken with IPv6 ND that needs changing; it just needs a new option. > We have seen how that is possible through publications like RFC8801. Also RFC8505. I think, it's really really time to stop pretending everything is big-blue coaxial ethernet. > BTW, IPv6 itself is a last-century technology but the architects had the wisdom to allow > for future extensions without needing to modify the core architecture. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8opFwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW4Fwf8CfRdCk18iWaefN2Y7UK+AV/XrHt9XlG/ueNx8nWujB6L4yk+4UXoLTzi Nc6P58zXTVQpbpH/Z0VQyvtSdyBDpQMKjP2XWbjZH8wW48PWRSMmEzCBqofwzMgi a8jFZ5nI1gwLhYOAiUg7nhCcQ7q0yr1YCZ/EMvntMQG2fYWV4oa/swhd3UdShEsn NKHA4t0vDJfPoba/V/2AWVMr2hVMUvbQWHi2dq0WjbwLS0/HPaEroobyQdM7mcAc 33QEK/j3QhwsiLejUZtHr/GbPSE8frX0zcKuCMSAP580OcrzKi/8i+VtqPXht0Wa cbZEu11neVGxISVKTEvCPtf+asQ7HQ== =HkYn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 17:04:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FE83A118B; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lxf_cEoN1soo; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 078603A0D91; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B8738999; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id nBcK4hqTz-Ep; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5323898E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93F163E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:04:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Tony Finch , v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:04:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony Finch wrote: > Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> Indeed, as an operator, IMHO, if there=E2=80=99s a place we need to = focus on >> improving L2 attack surface in v6, it=E2=80=99s in finding better wa= ys for >> {routers, hosts, switches} to mitigate/absorb this type of resource >> exhaustion attack. Unfortunately, this is a hard problem to solve, s= o we >> focus on moving the deck chairs we can move while ignoring the >> elephant-sized hole in the bulkheads that we don=E2=80=99t know how = to patch. > If GRAND is deployed, would that allow routers to assume their neighb= our > tables are complete, so they can just drop ND exhaustion attacks? As said elsewhere in the thread, in general no. Could a router develop heuristic in this direction that would help it prote= ct traffic during ND exhaustion attacks? I think so. Perhaps a signal from host to router in the ND that it does grand would be = in order. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8opgIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXjSwf+Id6n9uzyOeyXGGk658AXVdkRAvahfY6+cKCjdo7KuP9eAK4R9BU6vCsB d9TRKFo/EL/wHpthf3SJvl0pACy+lsgV3gTpnPfZT40fTq1JswuXT//UMs2g7w3I 7qecr+b6hAuSWsSUpVdckeXSruA1tVpCXlpeZSkdX4rXoHD2Hx5WPlXv6X8DePxb ZB4CH3QLMpak5RnmBLOs8PqrOz6UDu85V4rOZ+G6ozMfI395PBisX2+YAhG3TuMq 8ALU5/LEwSfpvX1Qg9AK/FInnqTc7nSWn3T2KibPprWuP3u+FkMiQ9NiKZtTyeKb tKGNNgtwFfoUERCdk60xavNqZTSOLA== =c5ua -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 17:09:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B133A118D; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bGfbgzDDh-Rp; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93A1E3A118B; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7382B389A2; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id RFttO6ZPSUGj; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B23389A0; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6302E63E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:08:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Templin \(US\)\, Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:09:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain SEND is/was too expensive to deploy because 15 years ago, hosts did not have identities that other hosts or routers could easily validate. We did not come up with a reasonable TOFU mechanism either. I believe that there are probably now environments (such as yours Fred) where the cost/benefit of deploying those identities now has become positive. This because the cost of deploying identities is much lower than it used to be (both the administrative cost of doing it, as well as the CPU/network cost of doing the signing), while the benefit of mitigating the risks is higher. But, this has gone beyond GRAND. GRAND is useful without SEND, but would be enhanced by SEND. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8opvUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX1jgf/X0lDUqvme8j03k+9JKEKrgK/FQbPS1lAUaXa6wziViT8YATEGpM5kQqE zt9Nu2uF7FG0PCm738zq6ft0OB2j6tGW16fNljb5j4m25tRySOtd3HccE8tRlVUR a5A9WVW6YRrXJAGsCP313Dfn8qYsIyl3ypGHSfzFK5DBr7HVGck/XCAgyyGwVBsU XdFjHqRE1tqE11x11SbTCJVQDdHH/0fZI5wBQecFabpxPjajsJ7BGTNiNEun5WMn b8kcMMSdLkaS2rH39ameQNE3Y5fTmRYsINSOArTJK+OAq7rScrJiO5bBO9IxAMFc fU5oTZN01uFQZoFbrbOmY3QUTmKG+g== =e692 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 17:39:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45B93A118F; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VSPo7UI0V_TT; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD7FA3A1195; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BE5389A5; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id z05Xzk5sGs4p; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F35389A2; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A79163E; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 20:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon , v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: <1766B530-1683-403B-BC7D-90C4B056B739@fugue.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com> <5FB3E98B-6CEE-458C-90B7-E6FD73C7AFDE@fugue.com> <25FAEE9A-3D14-4428-A573-5EFE863219D2@fugue.com> <1766B530-1683-403B-BC7D-90C4B056B739@fugue.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:39:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ted Lemon wrote: > On Jul 31, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >> Ted, I think SEND would solve the neighbor cache resource exhaustion attack since a NCE is >> only created on receipt of an authentic (SEND-protected) IPv6 ND message. > OK, but an attacker can just generate a bazillion key pairs, right? So > it can still exhaust the cache, at the cost of some computation work. If you do a TUFO trust model, yes. If you do something else, because you are in a different environment than a IETF meeting network^W^W^Wcoffee shop, then the potential win is quite large. Even if you do a TOFU trust model, keys which were first used prior to the attack, could continue to be be used, protecting the cache. This pushes the exhaustion attack from one part of the control plane (where ND messages are processed), to another part of the control plane (where keys are trusted on first use). Is that a good thing? Maybe. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8orhYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUMYwf+Mek7/EcXaDqmBqvvrolO+v1MHIGmy8/Lw63Do1FsK4jdQFXQCvoc/Abf QBeFrXpEfNwXRlSDnLpCcUHu+BRcMSb/6dbwJubCkRGp0KEbFgqiqu9E3yOgFXKA anXLozV36Gus+XuXA8Sz98t4niRAEe/xlaBMD+lW2w4VANBBZQRNwnvBON+1fCPe aiZb1y5WJGP8a4Biw2tP+wu/ZtMzcFm+9AXD1QorOVxkNWo5K+5BtXb8Zujd7QBH FeTMxAmhp3eqFysC8LYZG6HOa6FgOdlCTc/krC2kGHs0cGfK5/lZYmdRsI68BlW4 Xp4Sh7AFMB3Vtbq7IUVEblPZvfkYlA== =Dd1h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Aug 3 18:22:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623333A11D9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUw6F4CF-nIZ for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5E203A11D7 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id t11so2125978plr.5 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:22:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OLQvd5OFyfI5m/cKr0G9OBjceVL6Pf0bvcxTEkJOJZk=; b=DoYhSNoCKOJEEk057F7ljhAuoknaK8lx/YSaIoIkp6ztZegoyLaWYnNCGTrd54mA1p 5nLFMSnVvCgGpQmmZtgfmT+daHAixfAIA3jzXPLm/3gWwXy9WtHt1RuPQnpH34PyyW4p 2VZ/MVuWWYb/pEXSl1IED5kH+3RXS3QgSIclIq5xw6Od38C3911MoqePyMvIXmUL9eri aStic3QLnFlFEtAxaFZTKAa9o7OfGtLR0ExSLCY9TpRb+ADD4w42/rGRwVS9amoNfC5I lp78W54wzkGJAatYrEgnnoEcygw/cedrckNnYXOgIzp/tmpOAnJVNm1eKa9U0DgmsfC7 gwtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OLQvd5OFyfI5m/cKr0G9OBjceVL6Pf0bvcxTEkJOJZk=; b=ErHedpA4kBlsTExIAobord4XVLdXkM/V73zqRA8zJqhG1aJUmV12qTzo2WreGX5Sgw Gj1oxa5uYjZx5n9UqDAdabtd/GdMpWXtyVbZFztiYMcTzNlAiQm5OVWePleeRRWZ9t/u WasY1XCShZu6qeDhzVn/roHd1jnjSE+Dona+EqFa85XjmtPjePNF13MAAliWZIKJSB/n zlorc3MHltjN6CrrpYStaGkchjRNZ+Ex7iwoWHOSpa1fT4P4vYwFc7bUqSzMVk3okXTZ bCYA6TBBFAUQO16sGdYEuoUbIBLuGzLD572qkkPWOzbK06929oqYckops3kQaCfMDrV8 PvOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cRYLKT/5LqUqyRej+2pKXlJvurG0grIpGzFX/XaywJfWieO1D Gv8UvKRvcMndeYnNnquGDpcQE9kT X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhtkktGJdTHsHyVIQCLUrQu+GVVs+xlFQhkwh6Boj4NfCugqRaz0KqMi5XUxF6ZwaQ5ONT4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:e558:: with SMTP id ei24mr2045864pjb.54.1596504167841; Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.37.183] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.37.183]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k8sm22247793pfu.68.2020.08.03.18.22.46 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:22:47 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <159622389491.12663.6529227245762732651@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <02c64a51-8f87-a2c8-b589-0e171d26c5ed@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:22:43 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159622389491.12663.6529227245762732651@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 01:22:50 -0000 I've tracked this draft since it started, so many of my previous comments have already been integrated. Now that it's a WG document, I've tried to read it again with fresh eyes. General: I think this is a very useful document for the reason it gives: > o Raise awareness about the operational and security implications of > IPv6 Extension Headers I suggest ensuring that the OPSAWG and OPSEC WGs are made aware of this draft before it reaches WGLC. Now a few detailed comments: > 4. Packet Forwarding Engine Constraints ... > One of the common > methods of handling next-hop lookup is to send a small portion of the > ingress packet to a lookup engine with specialised hardware (e.g. > ternary CAM or RLDRAM) to determine the packet's next-hop. Am I correct in thinking that some implementations do this in parallel with receiving the rest of the packet, i.e. overlap the destination lookup with receiving the payload? If so, that seems worth mentioning, to underline the strong focus on line speed processing. > If a hardware forwarding engine on a modern router cannot make a > forwarding decision about a packet because critical information is > not sent to the look-up engine, then the router will normally drop > the packet. I wonder if this is slightly misleading, because it also applies to middleboxes that are not strictly speaking routers. > NOTE: > > Section 5 discusses some of the reasons for which a modern router > might need to access layer-4 information to make a forwarding > decision. It might be worth pointing out the obvious at the beginning of this NOTE: the destination address is always in the first 40 bytes, so the concern is about forwarding engines that do *not* forward based only on the DA. > 5.1. ECMP and Hash-based Load-Sharing ... > Clearly, widespread support of [RFC6437] would relieve middle-boxes > from having to process the entire IPv6 header chain, making Flow > Label-based ECMP and Hash-based Load-Sharing [RFC6438] feasible. There's a slight confusion there. RFC6438 *does not* depend on the source setting the flow-label, because it's about setting the flow label for ECMP in foo-in-IPv6 tunnels, where it's the tunnel ingress that needs to follow RFC6437. There is a problem for non-tunneled packets, but that is not covered by RFC6438. So my friendly rewrite is: Clearly, widespread support of [RFC6437] would relieve middle-boxes from having to process the entire IPv6 header chain, making Flow Label-based ECMP and Hash-based Load-Sharing feasible. This can be achieved for provider-based tunnels [RFC6438] and in principle for server-farm load balancing [RFC7098]. However, this is not true today for wide-area ECMP or load sharing. > 6.1. Inability to Find Layer-4 Information It seems to me that a mention of how TLS also causes this is relevant. If TLS is in use, does it matter whether there are extension headers? There's some good recent analysis in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact . Regards Brian On 01-Aug-20 07:31, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. > > Title : Operational Implications of IPv6 Packets with Extension Headers > Authors : Fernando Gont > Nick Hilliard > Gert Doering > Warren Kumari > Geoff Huston > Will (Shucheng) Liu > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2020-07-31 > > Abstract: > This document summarizes the operational implications of IPv6 > extension headers, and attempts to analyze reasons why packets with > IPv6 extension headers may be dropped in the public Internet. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Tue Aug 4 02:07:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2623B3A0C9D; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sBHyKeg07EtN; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05903A0C92; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E5A02550762A6DFE3DFB; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:07:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:07:50 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:07:49 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:07:49 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Michael Richardson , "Templin (US), Fred L" CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops list" , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns Thread-Index: AdZl2/KmEr6Lt/NERGGqFiMA7k1/CAAIPvAAABH5AHD///P/gP//vOiggAECawCAABGlgIABDy+AgAVTiwD//z22UA== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:07:49 +0000 Message-ID: <63afd5c67e7c4520b8b7ebabec69cab7@huawei.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <15197.1596499036@localhost> In-Reply-To: <15197.1596499036@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.200.175] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:07:55 -0000 Hi Michael, It is strange that most dangerous attack (unsolicited NA - leading to leaka= ge of information) was not mentioned in RFC 3756. >We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router. Then router would be stateful (in respect of ND) - it is a very big archite= cture change. The industry has the big inertia - I do not believe that it i= s possible to return IPv6 address management to stateful model (except gove= rnment intrusion - see below). By the way, stateful DHCPv6 exist. Switch could easily snoop all messages a= nd assist to IPv6 in security (like it is done for IPv4). I propose do not push SLAAC in stateful direction - anyone who would like -= could use DHCPv6 or 6lo (stateful on router too). I propose to think how to save SLAAC - keeping it with distributed address = management. > Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in wifi net= works, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just leverage that. Our days big campuses are deployed without CAT5/6 cabling - everything is W= iFi. SLAAC for WiFi looks like not the best technology. State repository (AP) is= mandatory anyway. But anyone could use 6lo - it is developed specifically = for such environment (not effective multicast, frame loss). IMHO: It does not make sense to reinvent the wheel. RFC 6775 and 8505 do ha= ve good stateful solution for WiFi. SLAAC has been left with the small niche for the future - if it would have = fixes for biggest security problems (personal data protection). Looking to all these "data privacy protection legislation" world-wide (in m= any countries): SLAAC could be banned by some government at any movement. Experts would easily point to alternative: (1) stateful DHCPv6 (natural IPv= 4 prolong); (2) 6lo (it is optimized for wireless). Probably DHCPv6 would win, because it is easy to understand for IT&IP profe= ssionals. If any government would push - switchover to DHCPv6 would be fast. Then fixing SLAAC would be too late. It would be the time for deprecation R= FC. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: 4 =C1=D7=C7=D5=D3=D4=C1 2020 =C7. 2:57 To: Templin (US), Fred L Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; v6op= s list ; 6man Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional secu= rity concerns Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > I wish this group could open its eyes. ND as defined in the last > century is not suited for modern fabrics, virtual machines and > wireless. It is a pain for silicon-based forwarding. Time to upgrade = is > overdue. You are right! We either need SEND (RFC3971), or some technology that addresses the same u= se case (RFC3756). We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router. Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in wifi netwo= rks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just leverage that. (= ND is just wasted effort on encrypted wifi in my opinion) > There is nothing broken with IPv6 ND that needs changing; it just nee= ds a new option. > We have seen how that is possible through publications like RFC8801. Also RFC8505. I think, it's really really time to stop pretending everything is big-blue = coaxial ethernet. > BTW, IPv6 itself is a last-century technology but the architects had = the wisdom to allow > for future extensions without needing to modify the core architecture= . -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Tue Aug 4 03:01:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEB83A1051; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:01:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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ICA+IEJUVywgSVB2NiBpdHNlbGYgaXMgYSBsYXN0LWNlbnR1cnkgdGVjaG5vbG9neSBidXQgdGhl IGFyY2hpdGVjdHMgaGFkIHRoZQ0KPiB3aXNkb20gdG8gYWxsb3cNCj4gICAgID4gZm9yIGZ1dHVy ZSBleHRlbnNpb25zIHdpdGhvdXQgbmVlZGluZyB0byBtb2RpZnkgdGhlIGNvcmUgYXJjaGl0ZWN0 dXJlLi4NCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbiA8bWNyK0lFVEZAc2FuZGVsbWFu LmNhPiwgU2FuZGVsbWFuIFNvZnR3YXJlIFdvcmtzICAtDQo+ID0gSVB2NiBJb1QgY29uc3VsdGlu ZyA9LQ0KPiANCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Aug 4 09:06:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E386E3A0C37; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qX2FtOpb2yHJ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8F7C3A0C36; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml745-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DB30848F416C74EB49CF; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:06:04 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) by lhreml745-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.195) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:06:04 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 19:06:02 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 19:06:02 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael Richardson , "Templin (US), Fred L" CC: v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns Thread-Index: AdZl2/KmEr6Lt/NERGGqFiMA7k1/CAAIPvAAABH5AHD///P/gP//vOiggAECawCAABGlgIABDy+AgAVTiwD//z22UIABavgA//+Ka9A= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:06:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <15197.1596499036@localhost> <63afd5c67e7c4520b8b7ebabec69cab7@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.200.175] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:06:10 -0000 SGkgUGFzY2FsLA0KTXkgcHJpb3JpdHkgaGVyZSBpcyBjb2luY2lkZSB3aXRoIG1hbnkgZ292ZXJu bWVudHMgcHJpb3JpdGllczogbGVha2FnZSBvZiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpcyBzdHJpY3RseSBtYW5k YXRvcnkgdG8gcHJldmVudCAocHJpdmFjeSBwcm90ZWN0aW9uKS4NCkRvUyBpcyB0aGUgc2Vjb25k IHByaW9yaXR5LiBZb3UgYXJlIHJpZ2h0IHRoYXQgcmVtb3RlIERvUyBpcyBtb3JlIGRhbmdlcm91 cywgYmVjYXVzZSBmb3IgbG9jYWwgRG9TIGludHJ1ZGVyIHNob3VsZCBpbml0aWFsbHkgYnJlYWst dGhyb3VnaCBpbnRvIHN1Ym5ldCAoZXhwbG9pdCBvdGhlciB2dWxuZXJhYmlsaXR5IHRvIGdhaW4g 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Qa/6AIsDKBp5087+axHve12mMZCZ18mHeT1KxOruMvY=; b=Oecft6oReLmOpyyVzY2MYoLA7nWCIeb/3Kwa2KsN0pv2L5ZgYhd6UWTxCQhmS8nLhY SB+n9eGTSKSn02lT5e/kU+xxEIlUIXnPVBH+xNakbqdWE0rr9lTBN0rSLeMfy17ZOcMg eFAkLF/LJqP//96gsTXOochG6uqwgX8no3lxwc9A6WbSQEhXRytG++2OQMgJ07UQvzco 9Ite4qPlRpE0sE4iu6nxuKIf0iqVzHyLcN6hLMN8forn6zSiABXShMdDDtZZiYsq0373 G9FV98GESwa9RWMMkdAiOazNx76KxHK42CFMJzuUDhbmqIKFF+sGDpJrvZq2eWZmo0Wj 6zFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Qa/6AIsDKBp5087+axHve12mMZCZ18mHeT1KxOruMvY=; b=IIEdsHPIX0XMfEucBKVYvjs/GbP8w7ceJGhDAdLxJoybkpcTsrK44Lt5cxHb/WSndY pXWWjeoEg/1Hs9Y4CbQuGonDINO4Z+o7eY4T4hC4QJH0v2xhg/mHExnzS2En7tOXlWIZ 16OuAl0OEVwq56x+96RaY6aRY8a0kkRfAe3ptnjjp96+sbLtiqFwU3UNR+Vv1cVfiC1P zp78h7SLdZmY2Ji/FOBdQEgmC9RUc3m8tC9O6eLozucDOJeiVOHev3uLh5ZdSdfA2uM8 dqJq9rT20MkqtjqMTZ8gq7KMZRioRWK4eEKoLgRQYHiAq0bsqEcFiibcsGC7gkpvOpsJ t54w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GfkmQJ72c1ymPo+0Zw0cIZJmjpBrjCHDb75CmevnWALILuZbs fuUy+0yPKc+YKsyENmXPAQnKYfbM9HOXtMXNTi8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydM4D0jPL2XAim6Pq25zEGy+cfwbU4dQAe96Gz/uKFbW5YmcTrFPVRGRcx/MCD7p6n3y4Qytfv+8iSY41Pp4g= X-Received: by 2002:aca:120b:: with SMTP id 11mr4256868ois.54.1596561531363; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:18:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <15197.1596499036@localhost> <63afd5c67e7c4520b8b7ebabec69cab7@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 03:18:39 +1000 Message-ID: To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael Richardson , "Templin (US), Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f063b305ac1072ee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:18:57 -0000 --000000000000f063b305ac1072ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 5 Aug 2020, 02:06 Vasilenko Eduard, wrote: > Hi Pascal, > My priority here is coincide with many governments priorities: leakage of > information is strictly mandatory to prevent (privacy protection). > So when you've modified SLAAC and somehow deployed it to not use multicasts, are you going to move on to DHCPv6? Then Multicast DNS? OSPF? Spanning Tree? RIPv2? Modifying existing and widely deployed protocols not to use multicasts is a far harder way of solving the problem of unauthorised nodes receiving those multicasts. Using also existing and widely deployed layer 2 security or isolation methods to limit the reach of multicasts to only authorised nodes is the easiest and quickest solution. Regards, Mark. DoS is the second priority. You are right that remote DoS is more > dangerous, because for local DoS intruder should initially break-through > into subnet (exploit other vulnerability to gain root access on 1 host). > > I agree that Full ND cache on router is the good basement for protection > against Remote DoS. > > Thanks for good example of classification! "Centralized/Distributed > Address Allocation", "Reactive/Proactive cache management". > Could I add to classification "Ownership protection for Interface ID"? > Because I could not imagine how to protect against DoS attack from inside > subnet without proper trust anchor. The last would probably not happen fo= r > many years to come. > > Yes, I have made comment below that if Address Allocation would be change= d > to Centralized, then it is probably not SLAAC anymore. Then it is better = to > adopt DHCPv6. > > But why you said that DHCPv6 is only about "Proactive cache management"? > DHCP has attribute of "Centralized Address Allocation" too. > > I have read your > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router > Proxy is not universal solution and should not be mainstream. It is > complicated: IP subnet is split for many broadcast domains, proxy stitch = it > back. > > Eduard > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > Sent: 4 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 13:01 > To: Vasilenko Eduard ; Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: v6ops list ; 6man > Subject: RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional > security concerns > > Hello Eduard > > You need to qualify what you mean by dangerous. In my book an attack that > is easy to trigger remotely and anonymously is more "dangerous" than the > same attack if it has to be done from within the local network. Reactive > (cache and lookup) ND enables a remote DoS attack on the ND cache by > scanning 2^64 addresses with pings. Proactive (Stateful) ND avoids that > attack but can be more sensitive to local attacks. > > SLAAC has 2 main properties, the Distributed Address Allocation and the > Reactive ND Binding Cache management. Those properties are orthogonal: > DHCPv6 today uses the latter but not the former. RFC 8505 allows former b= ut > does not use the latter. =3D> I guess that by SLAAC you mean that you > 'prefer' the Reactive Binding Cache management and are not talking about > the Address Allocation piece since that piece is not at stake here. > "Preference" is another thing that you'll have to specify (vs. operationa= l > requirements). > > The current situation is (to my best knowledge): > 1) DHCPv6 allocation is not available in some stacks (Android). > 2) SLAAC is globally available in hosts and routers but it happens to be > barred by some enterprise policies > 3) In many modern environments the switches and routers need to maintain > the full tables of the attached nodes (e.g., fabrics like eVPN, proxy ND > for Wi-Fi APs). Today they do it by snooping the protocols so we get the > worst of both worlds. > 4) RFC 8505 is not limited to IoT devices. It is very generic. It allows > to build a network where the remote ND cache DOS becomes inefficient. > 5) It is possible to build a network that uses both stateful and > stateless, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router/. This > looks a lot like what you seems to be asking, Proactive at the WiFi edge > and Stateless on the wire. If you mix, the remote DOS is still possible, > but there are more ways to alleviate it. > > All the best > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vasilenko Eduard > > Sent: mardi 4 ao=C3=BBt 2020 11:08 > > To: Michael Richardson ; Templin (US), Fred L > > > > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; v6ops list > > ; 6man > > Subject: RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional > > security concerns > > > > Hi Michael, > > It is strange that most dangerous attack (unsolicited NA - leading to > > leakage of > > information) was not mentioned in RFC 3756. > > > > >We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router. > > Then router would be stateful (in respect of ND) - it is a very big > > architecture change. The industry has the big inertia - I do not > > believe that it is possible to return IPv6 address management to > > stateful model (except government intrusion - see below). > > By the way, stateful DHCPv6 exist. Switch could easily snoop all > > messages and assist to IPv6 in security (like it is done for IPv4). > > I propose do not push SLAAC in stateful direction - anyone who would > > like - could use DHCPv6 or 6lo (stateful on router too). > > I propose to think how to save SLAAC - keeping it with distributed > > address management. > > > > > Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in > > > wifi > > networks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just leverag= e > that. > > Our days big campuses are deployed without CAT5/6 cabling - everything > > is WiFi. > > SLAAC for WiFi looks like not the best technology. State repository > > (AP) is mandatory anyway. But anyone could use 6lo - it is developed > > specifically for such environment (not effective multicast, frame loss)= . > > IMHO: It does not make sense to reinvent the wheel. RFC 6775 and 8505 > > do have good stateful solution for WiFi. > > SLAAC has been left with the small niche for the future - if it would > > have fixes for biggest security problems (personal data protection). > > > > Looking to all these "data privacy protection legislation" world-wide > > (in many > > countries): SLAAC could be banned by some government at any movement. > > Experts would easily point to alternative: (1) stateful DHCPv6 > > (natural IPv4 prolong); (2) 6lo (it is optimized for wireless). > > Probably DHCPv6 would win, because it is easy to understand for IT&IP > > professionals. > > If any government would push - switchover to DHCPv6 would be fast. > > Then fixing SLAAC would be too late. It would be the time for > deprecation RFC. > > > > Eduard > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > > Richardson > > Sent: 4 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 2:57 > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; > > v6ops list ; 6man > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional > > security concerns > > > > > > Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > > I wish this group could open its eyes. ND as defined in the last > > > century is not suited for modern fabrics, virtual machines and > > > wireless. It is a pain for silicon-based forwarding. Time to > upgrade is > > > overdue. > > > > You are right! > > > > We either need SEND (RFC3971), or some technology that addresses the > > same use case (RFC3756). > > We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router. > > > > Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in wifi > > networks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just > > leverage that. (ND is just wasted effort on encrypted wifi in my > > opinion) > > > > > There is nothing broken with IPv6 ND that needs changing; it > > just needs a new option. > > > We have seen how that is possible through publications like > RFC8801. > > > > Also RFC8505. > > I think, it's really really time to stop pretending everything is > > big-blue coaxial ethernet. > > > > > BTW, IPv6 itself is a last-century technology but the architects > > had the wisdom to allow > > > for future extensions without needing to modify the core > architecture.. > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > - =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000f063b305ac1072ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 5 Aug 2020, 02:06 Vasilenko Eduard, <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>= ; wrote:
Hi Pascal,
My priority here is coincide with many governments priorities: leakage of i= nformation is strictly mandatory to prevent (privacy protection).


=
So when you've modified SLAAC and somehow deployed it= to not use multicasts, are you going to move on to DHCPv6? Then Multicast = DNS? OSPF? Spanning Tree? RIPv2?


Modifying existing and widely deploye= d protocols not to use multicasts is a far harder way of solving the proble= m of unauthorised nodes receiving those multicasts.
=
Using also existing and widely deployed layer 2= security or isolation methods to limit the reach of multicasts to only aut= horised nodes is the easiest and quickest solution.
=

Regards,
Mark.


<= /div>






DoS is the second priority. You are right that remote DoS is more dangerous= , because for local DoS intruder should initially break-through into subnet= (exploit other vulnerability to gain root access on 1 host).

I agree that Full ND cache on router is the good basement for protection ag= ainst Remote DoS.

Thanks for good example of classification! "Centralized/Distributed Ad= dress Allocation", "Reactive/Proactive cache management". Could I add to classification "Ownership protection for Interface ID&q= uot;? Because I could not imagine how to protect against DoS attack from in= side subnet without proper trust anchor. The last would probably not happen= for many years to come.

Yes, I have made comment below that if Address Allocation would be changed = to Centralized, then it is probably not SLAAC anymore. Then it is better to= adopt DHCPv6.

But why you said that DHCPv6 is only about "Proactive cache management= "? DHCP has attribute of "Centralized Address Allocation" to= o.

I have read your https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router
Proxy is not universal solution and should not be mainstream. It is complic= ated: IP subnet is split for many broadcast domains, proxy stitch it back.<= br>
Eduard
-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: 4 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 13:01
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>; Mich= ael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Templin (US), Fred L= <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
Cc: v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional secu= rity concerns

Hello Eduard

You need to qualify what you mean by dangerous. In my book an attack that i= s easy to trigger remotely and anonymously is more "dangerous" th= an the same attack if it has to be done from within the local network. Reac= tive (cache and lookup) ND enables a remote DoS attack on the ND cache by s= canning 2^64 addresses with pings. Proactive (Stateful) ND avoids that atta= ck but can be more sensitive to local attacks.

SLAAC has 2 main properties, the Distributed Address Allocation and the Rea= ctive ND Binding Cache management. Those properties are orthogonal: DHCPv6 = today uses the latter but not the former. RFC 8505 allows former but does n= ot use the latter. =3D> I guess that by SLAAC you mean that you 'pre= fer' the Reactive Binding Cache management and are not talking about th= e Address Allocation piece since that piece is not at stake here. "Pre= ference" is another thing that you'll have to specify (vs. operati= onal requirements).

The current situation is (to my best knowledge):
1) DHCPv6 allocation is not available in some stacks (Android).
2) SLAAC is globally available in hosts and routers but it happens to be ba= rred by some enterprise policies
3) In many modern environments the switches and routers need to maintain th= e full tables of the attached nodes (e.g., fabrics like eVPN, proxy ND for = Wi-Fi APs). Today they do it by snooping the protocols so we get the worst = of both worlds.
4) RFC 8505 is not limited to IoT devices. It is very generic. It allows to= build a network where the remote ND cache DOS becomes inefficient.
5) It is possible to build a network that uses both stateful and stateless,= see https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router/. This looks a lot like wha= t you seems to be asking, Proactive at the WiFi edge and Stateless on the w= ire. If you mix, the remote DOS is still possible, but there are more ways = to alleviate it.

All the best

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>= ;
> Sent: mardi 4 ao=C3=BBt 2020 11:08
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Templin= (US), Fred L
> <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; v6ops li= st
> <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional=
> security concerns
>
> Hi Michael,
> It is strange that most dangerous attack (unsolicited NA - leading to =
> leakage of
> information) was not mentioned in RFC 3756.
>
> >We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router.
> Then router would be stateful (in respect of ND) - it is a very big > architecture change. The industry has the big inertia - I do not
> believe that it is possible to return IPv6 address management to
> stateful model (except government intrusion - see below).
> By the way, stateful DHCPv6 exist. Switch could easily snoop all
> messages and assist to IPv6 in security (like it is done for IPv4). > I propose do not push SLAAC in stateful direction - anyone who would <= br> > like - could use DHCPv6 or 6lo (stateful on router too).
> I propose to think how to save SLAAC - keeping it with distributed > address management.
>
> > Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in =
> > wifi
> networks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just levera= ge that.
> Our days big campuses are deployed without CAT5/6 cabling - everything=
> is WiFi.
> SLAAC for WiFi looks like not the best technology. State repository > (AP) is mandatory anyway. But anyone could use 6lo - it is developed <= br> > specifically for such environment (not effective multicast, frame loss= ).
> IMHO: It does not make sense to reinvent the wheel. RFC 6775 and 8505 =
> do have good stateful solution for WiFi.
> SLAAC has been left with the small niche for the future - if it would =
> have fixes for biggest security problems (personal data protection). >
> Looking to all these "data privacy protection legislation" w= orld-wide
> (in many
> countries): SLAAC could be banned by some government at any movement.<= br> > Experts would easily point to alternative: (1) stateful DHCPv6
> (natural IPv4 prolong); (2) 6lo (it is optimized for wireless).
> Probably DHCPv6 would win, because it is easy to understand for IT&= ;IP
> professionals.
> If any government would push - switchover to DHCPv6 would be fast.
> Then fixing SLAAC would be too late. It would be the time for deprecat= ion RFC.
>
> Eduard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael =
> Richardson
> Sent: 4 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 2:57 > To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com><= br> > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc= .ietf.org>;
> v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>; 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional=
> security concerns
>
>
> Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrot= e:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I wish this group could open its eyes. ND as d= efined in the last
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> century is not suited for modern fabrics, virt= ual machines and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> wireless. It is a pain for silicon-based forwa= rding. Time to upgrade is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> overdue.
>
> You are right!
>
> We either need SEND (RFC3971), or some technology that addresses the <= br> > same use case (RFC3756).
> We need a for nodes to reserve resources on the router.
>
> Many of us would prefer that we avoid making it stateful, but in wifi =
> networks, are already allocate crypto state, and we should just
> leverage that. (ND is just wasted effort on encrypted wifi in my
> opinion)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There is nothing broken with IPv6 ND that need= s changing; it
> just needs a new option.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> We have seen how that is possible through publ= ications like RFC8801.
>
> Also RFC8505.
> I think, it's really really time to stop pretending everything is =
> big-blue coaxial ethernet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> BTW, IPv6 itself is a last-century technology = but the architects
> had the wisdom to allow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> for future extensions without needing to modif= y the core architecture..
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman S= oftware Works=C2=A0
> - =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>

_______________________________________________
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--000000000000f063b305ac1072ee-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 11:00:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030F43A0EC4; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0p5kdymedCP; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65BCD3A0EC5; Tue, 4 Aug 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6man Thread-Topic: SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3A== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:00:39 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.200.175] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_f52c4463862f44b5ba2a9d41db86d231huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 18:00:48 -0000 --_000_f52c4463862f44b5ba2a9d41db86d231huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyaywNCkkgYmVsaWV2ZSB0aGF0IE11bHRpY2FzdCBpcyBzbyBiYXNpYyBmdW5jdGlvbiBv ZiBTTEFBQyB0aGF0IGl0IGRvZXMgbm90IG1ha2Ugc2Vuc2UgdG8gZGVsZXRlIGl0Lg0KT24gY29u 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XCH16-07-07.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.109) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:02:34 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:02:34 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Michael Richardson , Ted Lemon , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ1UXpJjqh6zAPESbZadyenD7WakiUY2A//+bayCABTPJrYABISQg Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:02:34 +0000 Message-ID: <1f65a6e1edc343caa3b5e61d60a6d423@boeing.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <91D98D51-4045-4331-A711-8387ECE73400@fugue.com> <5FB3E98B-6CEE-458C-90B7-E6FD73C7AFDE@fugue.com> <25FAEE9A-3D14-4428-A573-5EFE863219D2@fugue.com> <1766B530-1683-403B-BC7D-90C4B056B739@fugue.com> <25494.1596501526@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25494.1596501526@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: F2E06C32B5FFF9D247945C8503BB8C4AAA86FDEA0DCA55F8E5967DE0DC6FCCB52000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 18:02:51 -0000 Hi, about SEND I was just doing a maintenance update of the AERO draft and = noticed that the subject is already covered there in full detail in Section 3.22: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-intarea-6706bis/ So, for those who have participated in this discussion, please refer to the= AERO spec and realize that the only thing missing in OMNI is an appropriate reference= citation to AERO. However, a point that could be considered by the OMNI design team = is whether the SEND text in AERO should instead be moved into the OMNI draft. Please review and comment, Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2020 5:39 PM > To: Ted Lemon ; v6ops list ; 6man > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security >=20 >=20 > Ted Lemon wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >> Ted, I think SEND would solve the neighbor cache resource exhausti= on attack since a NCE is > >> only created on receipt of an authentic (SEND-protected) IPv6 ND m= essage. >=20 > > OK, but an attacker can just generate a bazillion key pairs, right?= So > > it can still exhaust the cache, at the cost of some computation wor= k. >=20 > If you do a TUFO trust model, yes. > If you do something else, because you are in a different environment than= a > IETF meeting network^W^W^Wcoffee shop, then the potential win is quite la= rge. >=20 > Even if you do a TOFU trust model, keys which were first used prior to th= e > attack, could continue to be be used, protecting the cache. >=20 > This pushes the exhaustion attack from one part of the control plane (whe= re > ND messages are processed), to another part of the control plane (where k= eys > are trusted on first use). > Is that a good thing? Maybe. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Aug 4 12:39:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707F13A1117; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ml847O6MVIZE; Tue, 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AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3AAD1KRw Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 19:38:56 +0000 Message-ID: <317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036c@boeing.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: E98B206C4C73ADB124771F3D94C9DC592ED9BF1794B3B8C408AFAE53651856F82000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036cboeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:39:20 -0000 --_000_317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036cboeingcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RWR1YXJkLCBOQk1BIGFsbG93cyBmb3IgbXVsdGljYXN0cyB0byByZWFjaCBvbmx5IGEgYm91bmRl 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Ym9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036cboeingcom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 12:44:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B6F3A10C2 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zmrwLPt-dSEA for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Aug 2020 21:44:48 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: Mark Smith , Michael Richardson , 6man , v6ops list Message-ID: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:44:54 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 06:00:39PM +0000, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > I believe that Multicast is so basic function of SLAAC that it does not make sense to delete it. Have I heard "delete multicast" here? Yes, please! There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the process. The motivation for going to multicast "back in the dark ages" might have been honorable, but in today's networks, it just adds needless complications. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Aug 4 13:15:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED2B3A107D for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zN_8PqZ7tBE3 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52BEC3A10B7 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id o2so19658560qvk.6 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 13:15:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=pw0aVGrSEPMxRSgN2GlyCGvn3R4gZy1P0tJuYJLllSk=; b=g0wZUAA6GknHt5dpiLSQSEfvYJvubTlP6e422iyf07QmaM56s3DEa2IhMMWHi35o8w BryeC90ItbnpciP7NuBWAAYrJfcxI1sfajz027+DsjZU/1PDstahBr9QtBTPwn8qfHSs eWM2zbYZZuai6MdPHBfXp3ru3I/IgwM8Srh/J+98ZrhlzoaWF5zpOrnIqM7h+N4dRL4G DSBYzdV2NUmgEYFVYY98dxLcgQFO5B5qAZLVIDW/zm+CdLEz90iDZycoPFTtTW25L/N8 NuEhebKp2NnGeguXQCTIGh/T1csT5KHANVox/HVBImX/+B2qyl7sOtJOfclUYtu0yW7g EDxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=pw0aVGrSEPMxRSgN2GlyCGvn3R4gZy1P0tJuYJLllSk=; b=jee18cqs3FXKlTc4jMgVMBCVFEWoVGgaytEuY15Me3PrNZp7XHW+FB+lDVXYJhCvcN +3Q0ImO9/UhNWn5DfT13UfowSleBaA2WolvWUuQlnRImL3ippN9+M8Co3dDQADE8FQEz Lc7Dh8tJ6MpYEjFpDmjTL0292549gJwD0qhiRnOiK8vNR7HbxPPGWz5V3LG5RGa6su9c SY964oyMpWx2mc49d4FysJnBlmhqumQYayt5MpBTrD8R7zd0PSAQ+Qki4f10ayAZJnmM 5/pISEUhcW766kBeiELyhb5b9djXxMjTRTLVsuhOBEB/NZdBp6QQ97NlnflhlwX9+naK IMCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310KMcyoO+Kb257+QDRBscp9EVKg1qrGK3J9qsvMjLr8RUNaR0y tBjYtVxJ20EVg8cqhfaPKZQxOA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwKQdJfERF166WTm7yNK62r+wzFp57paePH2VRqkoQXWgjWoaaqpcjx5xdw1qi6nM3ZsP0vHw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:cc87:: with SMTP id f7mr99772qvl.188.1596572124243; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 13:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18b:300:36ee:bc4f:dd7f:d316:5243? ([2601:18b:300:36ee:bc4f:dd7f:d316:5243]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t69sm1923470qka.73.2020.08.04.13.15.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 13:15:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_64667390-537C-4BD9-BAFF-6D83F901C773" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:15:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man To: Gert Doering References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:15:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_64667390-537C-4BD9-BAFF-6D83F901C773 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and > again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the=20= > process. Why don=E2=80=99t you return that switch for a refund? (I=E2=80=99ve never run into a switch that had trouble with IPv6 = multicast, but admittedly I only have four different switches in my = house, so that=E2=80=99s not a very big sample.) --Apple-Mail=_64667390-537C-4BD9-BAFF-6D83F901C773 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Aug 4, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> = wrote:
There is too = many broken switch vendors out there that show again and
again that = "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the 
process.

Why don=E2=80=99t you return that switch for a = refund?

(I=E2=80= =99ve never run into a switch that had trouble with IPv6 multicast, but = admittedly I only have four different switches in my house, so that=E2=80=99= s not a very big sample.)

= --Apple-Mail=_64667390-537C-4BD9-BAFF-6D83F901C773-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 13:28:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CD13A0745 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1qJyCUMVJQWB for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper1-relay.space.net (gatekeeper1-relay.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:3:85::38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E8D93A0AE9 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:28:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=space.net; i=@space.net; q=dns/txt; s=esa; t=1596572931; x=1628108931; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=5H7dHKvQLb6vwwLAL1CaYijbZHTZphZmiFycPGDjMLk=; b=ccXC/tbCxJ7A+43QlIxYG/ueB3roLIelR6WUZ/4zU0DYHr2CTky02/Gc 3BPQt6NZ2Fy1fLFX5pOsli+nua9QtOLx7Dy4E5YNTpXcUxEy7osKK7PXQ ZkTNHEompbUCIoOBx6MEdOOA0bxnco8YUAHo5AAsElKQX6W2Tvb6nYqVU YLj3pdhQ/Hl2bhTTfH1MTU97mLNTIepLmb/5bkLgPPPLfbyOU0OEAVOSo qADrToq+Q1Vv0Y2ySwR/s/mWhhiCxEiLFj7l9GfLM130fmfrj9xE0zdqn P3hAxyxx1lSgwBuWhQVxW0nYqeay4PSooPvM6YYa0Jk1r9y4Gf1Z9WyTa A==; IronPort-SDR: M5bYB8pylnG/1s3LbN5XkAgmMWvW798h+rL85vSsFY2wgUXEPEcBz+4vSWyvekRvMiwUz5BmLk TAxCQJ8ZG/NUMRqdSyIWkinRvXM2wmnXlk6aeu1DA2XRqQeDQqyDJ5u2UN1NJTEe6j+UkWLnVT 12W7ZeN3EbhhOZyCGNPc3HnmBHhbRZE9mkQcnjgWr5EXNY8l908NKi8ljSbXzzfqO2W5iMiPKG dllypK+pbbM3Zq/sBTNR1VZhS0zlyYQ+LPs+g7mbj0CxMABlOxrmQZ3B8PusmFfQyporLrz2K2 EXo= X-SpaceNet-SBRS: None Received: from mobil.space.net ([195.30.115.67]) by gatekeeper1-relay.space.net with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Aug 2020 22:28:48 +0200 X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0441D2E for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:28:48 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D0141D20; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 9C4DB1CF94; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:28:47 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Ted Lemon Cc: Gert Doering , Vasilenko Eduard , Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man Message-ID: <20200804202847.GB2485@Space.Net> References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sEJ/o/vgcchwAs8V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:28:53 -0000 --sEJ/o/vgcchwAs8V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 04:15:22PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > > There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and > > again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the=20 > > process. >=20 > Why don???t you return that switch for a refund? >=20 > (I???ve never run into a switch that had trouble with IPv6 multicast, but= admittedly I only have four different switches in my house, so that???s no= t a very big sample.) $20 switches tend to be not affected. It's the more expensive ones where developers intended to "do the right thing with multicast!" and never came around to actually implement it. Or where you need to turn on - or *off* - MLD to make link-local multicast work, but the default is the wrong way around. I have seen this on devices from three different vendors - Extreme, Juniper, and "something that DECIX was using like 15 years ago" - and of course not all models or all firmware versions are affected. But when it happens, it's life time you won't get back. If I were to return every device in my network where a developer messed up something the IETF made too complex in protocol design, I would have a very secure, and very power-efficient result - but no network anymore. (And your response very nicely demonstrates why operators get fed up trying to participate in IETF) Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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ESMTPSA id w2sm3646173pjt.19.2020.08.04.13.54.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 13:54:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Gert Doering , Ted Lemon Cc: Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> <20200804202847.GB2485@Space.Net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:54:06 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200804202847.GB2485@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:54:13 -0000 On 05-Aug-20 08:28, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 04:15:22PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: >>> There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and >>> again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the >>> process. >> >> Why don???t you return that switch for a refund? >> >> (I???ve never run into a switch that had trouble with IPv6 multicast, but admittedly I only have four different switches in my house, so that???s not a very big sample.) > > $20 switches tend to be not affected. > > It's the more expensive ones where developers intended to "do the right > thing with multicast!" and never came around to actually implement it. It's also a matter of scale. Multicast-dependent code that runs perfectly on a small home network fails dramatically on a site network with defective MLD implementation, and misbehaves significantly on a network with correct MLD implementation but very heavy load. (I speak from experience with the ANIMA GRASP protocol, that uses low rate multicast. On the IETF network, for example, only about 10% of its multicasts were delivered, and this was because the switches were doing MLD correctly and behaving exactly as intended by the NOC. If you care, you can see that draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane provides NBMA service for GRASP, even though it doesn't use that term.) > Or where you need to turn on - or *off* - MLD to make link-local multicast > work, but the default is the wrong way around. > > I have seen this on devices from three different vendors - Extreme, Juniper, > and "something that DECIX was using like 15 years ago" - and of course not > all models or all firmware versions are affected. But when it happens, it's > life time you won't get back. > > If I were to return every device in my network where a developer messed > up something the IETF made too complex in protocol design, I would have > a very secure, and very power-efficient result - but no network anymore. > > (And your response very nicely demonstrates why operators get fed up > trying to participate in IETF) All the same, Gert, we need frequent injections of reality. Thanks! Brian From nobody Tue Aug 4 16:33:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71DBD3A11E0; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.998, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XYtPVydYVO-c; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 486E23A11DA; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id z18so11460216otk.6; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4F1vdwkP3WRvWd/EbEsBNSUgvafronNA4XkPsS+dXRg=; b=oAvYRD941ttFuA/ABnIdlAPgHBCcV409sYDOBSyZpqDxfrtkDYoRAi8FhGXR+qSFWW iBMy9mj59TQ1aK5tq2BNXgFWpvYJ+EJW2fiPOe0LtCLmr86eov25h8B8raLwAEqjguZt sEkbRdq94D0p5dmmALnbiVmnVgPiYdn6mlT4z8A3yxShluJMlHLsWhFD1Uun6X1Bn0OB rbbZzYb4CgQEoHBnd8fI4bESYERMrlszx78OtEO4eJYKKKdk4yfxEG/bkQVgOlqwMSR+ iYFNxmjQrkSMOYxn16tLls5rdFIovzJCXXsnKiumFkRXbkvWvNuF6s5eTQgSofpuqkUd raog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4F1vdwkP3WRvWd/EbEsBNSUgvafronNA4XkPsS+dXRg=; b=tuW/xpV9OPEYrgJzw93e78ruc9Nc1aVkkG5BKmjWvpKwCCrxXbwD+xk11R46c4s6R6 IrVmUuDaSA6GP2Kmi9AoHtIhh4LkxPWTPL0RZQSCe15wkv6ZI05DA1nKkLRd07fc3j+z tyd7E0tb/4JeC+HOr+puqgx9DnkOyEkhRy6VaKXK2CoYiBibismsFiggjVUgciT4X/F9 HYRmbhKu+jsMnAYGxT98b8XloN1forpXC/zGfCbJWWZbuquVyJWyufNU0FVNYFntxuL6 yhD/GUTcHSrV7Jdxrn+gSOndBDIhsEcyE8Ehv13T/Eojymu4WspCK9TsaVQ2B6QxRL56 RTig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ABIMPC/WEq8KKTE2YMy1XlevgVuq9oL4oBk4wVE0OAshf+r3g bIBlvZwSTj+cwQnuuc89xTmFrFZarT3nDmP+52M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxV+mtc2RrcqaXpJS4QegdtFKhuYeZgYks6IWcjk/t3wisCTm2wyAgViwQTxA9KUWh3cvJwoDehb/gixq6yBos= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:38f:: with SMTP id f15mr459018otf.74.1596583987620; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:32:56 +1000 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , Michael Richardson , 6man , v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006fb1c205ac15ad80" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 23:33:09 -0000 --0000000000006fb1c205ac15ad80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, 5 Aug 2020, 05:44 Gert Doering, wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 06:00:39PM +0000, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > > I believe that Multicast is so basic function of SLAAC that it does not > make sense to delete it. > > Have I heard "delete multicast" here? > > Yes, please! > > There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and > again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the > process. > > The motivation for going to multicast "back in the dark ages" might have > been honorable, but in today's networks, it just adds needless > complications. > Multicast also shifts and distributes state away from a central device. A central device is a much bigger consequence point of failure, and is a harder thing to make redundant due to having to invent a state synchronisation and load selection or distribution method mechanism between a primary and one or more backup nodes. Nodes maintaining their own state is simpler and means that when a node fails, the loss of state due to the failure only impacts the failed node. A specific design for redundant DHCPv6 has to exist. Redundancy in SLAAC came inherently in its design because a node failure only impacts that node. > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael > Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > --0000000000006fb1c205ac15ad80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 5 Aug 2020, 05:44 Gert Doering, <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 06:00:39PM +0000, Vasilenko Eduard wrote:
> I believe that Multicast is so basic function of SLAAC that it does no= t make sense to delete it.

Have I heard "delete multicast" here?

Yes, please!

There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and
again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in = the
process.

The motivation for going to multicast "back in the dark ages" mig= ht have
been honorable, but in today's networks, it just adds needless complica= tions.

Multicast also shifts and distributes state away from a central devic= e.

A central device is a= much bigger consequence point of failure, and is a harder thing to make re= dundant due to having to invent a state synchronisation and load selection = or distribution method mechanism between a primary and one or more backup n= odes.

Nodes maintaining = their own state is simpler and means that when a node fails, the loss of st= ate due to the failure only impacts the failed node.

A specific design for redundant DHCPv6 has to = exist. Redundancy in SLAAC came inherently in its design because a node fai= lure only impacts that node.



Gert Doering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A.= Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USt-IdNr.: DE8131= 85279
--0000000000006fb1c205ac15ad80-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 16:41:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046E63A11F4; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:41:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.34, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pWVx-040ZKeK; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FB0A3A1230; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:9de6:20d9:b1b0:ef5] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:9de6:20d9:b1b0:ef5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6AF07280204; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:41:13 +0000 (UTC) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: v6ops list , 6man References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 19:32:10 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 23:41:24 -0000 Hi, Fred, On 3/8/20 16:55, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: [....] >>> >>> That is fine; we can accommodate CGAs in OMNI, cumbersome as they are. >>> I have this on my TODO list for after the adoption call. >> >> Why "cumbersome"? > > I realize the addresses are cryptographically-generated, which implies a security property > which is good. But, they would not be the primary link-local addresses that neighbor > nodes will know each other by - the CGAs will be found in the IPv6 ND message source > and destination addresses, while the primary addresses will be carried in an additional > IPv6 encapsulation header and would be the addresses that the NCEs are indexed by. Not sure what you mean... > So, all the CGAs really are is placeholders in the IPv6 header to run security checks over. > They need not even be checked for uniqueness on the link, because it is the primary > addresses and not the CGAs which need to be maintained as unique. The point of CGAs is that in order for you to ND-answer for PREFIX:IID, you need to have the key identified by "IID". So, assuming /64s, you'd need to be lucky to, given a CGA (PREFIX:IID), generate a key-pair where the public key is identified by "IID". >>>>> But then, RFC4380 offers a “poor-man’s” alternative to SEND/CGA. It >>>>> places a message authentication code in the encapsulation headers of IPv6 ND messages so >>>>> that the messages can pass a rudimentary authentication check. >>>> >>>> You mean the Teredo spec? If so, I don't think it includes any sort of >>>> poor-man's SEND-CGA. >>> >>> It provides for message authentication, >> >> But what's special about SEND/CGAs is that they tie the address to a key... > > OK, that sounds good. So, we like that property but AFAICT that is about all the > CGA is good for in my application. The thing is that, while in theory you could *theoretically* extend the use of CGAs as a spoofing mitigation, in the context of SEND CGAs are just employed for mitigating ND attacks... and that's kind a lot of effort for mitigating something that we have learned to live_with/mitigate in IPv4 in simpler ways. i.e., I find SEND smart... but, in the bigger picture, not very compelling to deploy. [...] > The usage we have for OMNI is that of an Internet-based Client sending an > authenticated, encapsulated, unicast RS message to an Internet-based Server > which then must authenticate the message. Depends on what you mean by "authenticated". CGAs prove that the node that sends the packet is the owner of the address. Not more than that. That's different than authenticating the client. Similarly, you could authenticate the client, but that wouldn't mean that a client is the owner of a given address. >>>>> So someone with >>>>> security experience please help me out here – is RFC4380 authentication an acceptably >>>>> secure  replacement for SEND/CGA that might be easier to work with and less >>>>> cumbersome? >>>> >>>> Nope. Tee point of CGAs is that they allow you to prove address >>>> ownership. There's nothing in RFC4380 that provides the same or similar >>>> functionality. >>> >>> Why do we have to prove address ownership >> >> Well, that's one of the goals of SEND/CGAs. :-) >> >> >>> and use a whacky address format like CGA? >> >> The *address format* is not really whacky. At the end of the day, it's a >> random number, with the specific property that it's part of the hash of >> a public key. >> >> looking at a CGA, you probably wouldn't be able to tell CGA from RFC7217. [...] > > I think if you look inside the IPv6 ND message and find a CG option you can > infer that the address in the IPv6 header is a CGA. Yep... but CGA != CGA option. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Tue Aug 4 22:35:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6363A1244; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=N0QgGZ2X; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com 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15.20.3239.022; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 05:35:18 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Fernando Gont CC: "Templin (US), Fred L" , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAAUmIAAABNVoAACE6vdgAA50eAAIZwnoAAA560AAABYB2AAARvxIAAAjUOgAAFdi0AAEERuEw= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 05:35:18 +0000 Message-ID: <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: boeing.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;boeing.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvW5NFlKPhus; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B89C3A0CBA; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml722-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 7FE3583233A49753721D; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:26:55 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) by lhreml722-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:26:55 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:26:54 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:26:54 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Gert Doering CC: Mark Smith , Michael Richardson , 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3P//7l0A//8aecA= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:26:54 +0000 Message-ID: <7105a04994d045b890d04b49ef72c31c@huawei.com> References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 06:26:58 -0000 Hi Gert, SLAAC dependency on multicast is so huge that it is not possible to make it= worse by 1 additional function. If L2 would lose ND packets, then many things in SLAAC would not work. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net]=20 Sent: 4 =C1=D7=C7=D5=D3=D4=C1 2020 =C7. 22:45 To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: Mark Smith ; Michael Richardson ; 6man ; v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns Hi, On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 06:00:39PM +0000, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > I believe that Multicast is so basic function of SLAAC that it does not m= ake sense to delete it. Have I heard "delete multicast" here? Yes, please! There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again and again= that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in the process. The motivation for going to multicast "back in the dark ages" might have be= en honorable, but in today's networks, it just adds needless complications. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Aug 4 23:32:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EAA3A1371; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3IFnaUgQ2TgT; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 132803A132A; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4D987D2620AA74B172E2; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:32:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) by lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:32:41 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:32:40 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:32:40 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Gert Doering , Ted Lemon CC: Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3P//7l0AgAAIigCAAAPAgP//JY2A Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:32:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3179d46b4edb4058b344cfe1e62b12ad@huawei.com> References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> <20200804202847.GB2485@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20200804202847.GB2485@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 06:32:49 -0000 Bad vendor problem is rare in Enterprise in Carrier. Because: 1. Carrier do test all equipment heavily before any big purchase. Some Ente= rprise test too. 2. They both have big influence on vendor (he is interested in other sales)= - vendors would fix problems promptly Unfortunately, even such situation could create pressure on Operational, bu= t it is a different story. Vendor would not care too much about home user. Ed/ -----Original Message----- From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net]=20 Sent: 4 =C1=D7=C7=D5=D3=D4=C1 2020 =C7. 23:29 To: Ted Lemon Cc: Gert Doering ; Vasilenko Eduard ; Michael Richardson ; v6ops list ; 6man Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns Hi, On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 04:15:22PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > > There is too many broken switch vendors out there that show again=20 > > and again that "implementing multicast is hard", breaking IPv6 ND in=20 > > the process. >=20 > Why don???t you return that switch for a refund? >=20 > (I???ve never run into a switch that had trouble with IPv6 multicast,=20 > but admittedly I only have four different switches in my house, so=20 > that???s not a very big sample.) $20 switches tend to be not affected. It's the more expensive ones where developers intended to "do the right thi= ng with multicast!" and never came around to actually implement it. Or where you need to turn on - or *off* - MLD to make link-local multicast = work, but the default is the wrong way around. I have seen this on devices from three different vendors - Extreme, Juniper= , and "something that DECIX was using like 15 years ago" - and of course no= t all models or all firmware versions are affected. But when it happens, i= t's life time you won't get back. If I were to return every device in my network where a developer messed up = something the IETF made too complex in protocol design, I would have a very= secure, and very power-efficient result - but no network anymore. (And your response very nicely demonstrates why operators get fed up trying= to participate in IETF) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Aug 4 23:44:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFBA3A133F; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xS0LCbKVXaaP; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EEAA3A117F; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml737-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2DD581E68C84DD8E9ADE; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:44:00 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) by lhreml737-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.187) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:43:55 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:43:54 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:43:54 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Ted Lemon" CC: Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man , Gert Doering Thread-Topic: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3P//7l0AgAAIigCAAAdgAP//J7PQ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:43:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net>, <6370DE53-9EC6-4141-97C6-3B223939012A@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fa73c4e3aca6406995daa12ffa30e260huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 06:44:05 -0000 --_000_fa73c4e3aca6406995daa12ffa30e260huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///0IKAgAAjfoCAABGogIAAK7IAgAIIjgCAAFY8QA== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:30:16 +0000 Message-ID: <8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17ce@huawei.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17cehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 08:30:26 -0000 --_000_8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17cehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFzY2FsLA0KSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgeW91IGFyZSBhIGxpdHRsZSBtaXNsZWFkaW5nIGF1 ZGllbmNlIG9uIFNlTkQuDQoNClllcywgdGhleSBkaWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRlcnJpYmxlOiB0aGV5 IGhhdmUgaW52ZW50ZWQgdGhlaXIgb3duIGNyeXB0byBhbGdvcml0aG0gZm9yIEludGVyZmFjZSBJ RCBnZW5lcmF0aW9uLg0KSXQgaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgSE1BQzogYmFzZWQgb24g4oCccHJv b2Ygb2Ygd29ya+KAnS4gSXQgaXMgYSBzb21lIHNvcnQgb2Ygc2lnbmF0dXJlLCBidXQgd2VhayBh bmQgZXhwZW5zaXZlIChhIGxvdCBvZiBjb21wdXRhdGlvbnMpLiBZZXQgY291bGQgYmUgc2ltcGxl IC0gIGNvbXBsZXhpdHkgcmVndWxhdGVkIGJ5IHNwZWNpYWwgMyBiaXRzLg0KR29vZCBzZWN1cml0 eSBydWxlIGhhcyBiZWVuIGJyb2tlbjogbmV2ZXIgZXZlciBkZXZlbG9wIHlvdXIgb3duIGNyeXB0 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msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:12:51 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///0IKAgAAjfoCAABGogIAAK7IAgAIIjgCAAFY8QIAAFX+Q Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:12:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3a82af384ba441778a1187b9ca36800c@huawei.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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15.20.3261.018; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:48:55 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Vasilenko Eduard , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6gAAUmIAAABNVoAACE6vdgAA50eAAIZwnoAAA560AAABYB2AAARvxIAAAjUOgAAFdi0AAEERuEwABhxQAAAGj18A Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:48:40 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:47:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> <8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17ce@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17ce@huawei.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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15.20.3261.018; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:20:25 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Vasilenko Eduard , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AdZnYGykJNK1kk2zSneWe05yLDtm6qkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///0IKAgAAjfoCAABGogIAAK7IAgAIIjgCAAFY8QIAAFX+QqSHAzMA= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:20:14 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:19:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> <3a82af384ba441778a1187b9ca36800c@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3a82af384ba441778a1187b9ca36800c@huawei.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: 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3D0993084FB1BB0499D1; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:27:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by lhreml740-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:27:21 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:27:21 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:27:21 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///0IKAgAAjfoCAABGogIAAK7IAgAIIjgCAAFY8QIAAEhUAgABL3BA= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:27:21 +0000 Message-ID: <839840b994fc496eade28a02b55c9578@huawei.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> <8633403799804125b0fc23a64cda17ce@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_839840b994fc496eade28a02b55c9578huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 13:27:29 -0000 --_000_839840b994fc496eade28a02b55c9578huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFzY2FsLA0KSXQgaXMgZXhhY3RseSB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbS4gWW91IGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIHRh bGsgb24gc29tZSBwcm9wcmlldGFyeSAoYW5kIGxvdyBzZWN1cml0eSkgYWxnb3JpdGhtIHRoYXQg aXMgaW52ZW50ZWQgaW5zaWRlIENHQS4NCkkgZG8gbm90IGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBpdCBpcyBwb3Nz aWJsZSB0byBwcm92ZSBhbnkgbGV2ZWwgb2Ygc2VjdXJpdHkgZm9yIGl0IChldmVuIGlmIDMgYml0 cyB3b3VsZCBwdXNoIGZvciBodWdlIGNvbXB1dGF0aW9uIHJlc291cmNlKS4NCkhlbmNlLCB5b3Ug Y2xhaW0gbG93IGxldmVsIG9mIHNlY3VyaXR5IGZvciBTZU5EIGluIGdlbmVyYWwuDQoNCkJ1dCBp biByZWFsaXR5LCB0aGUgbGV2ZWwgb2YgU2VORCBzZWN1cml0eSBpcyB2ZXJ5IGhpZ2gsIGJlY2F1 c2UgaXQgaXMgYmFzZWQgb24gYWRkaXRpb25hbCBjcnlwdG8gYWxnb3JpdGhtIChSU0EpIHRoYXQg aXMgZ29vZCBlbm91Z2ggZXZlbiBmb3IgdmVyeSBkZW1hbmRpbmcgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIG5vdy4N 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(xch16-07-09.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.111]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 075DVeLX020154 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:31:41 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-09.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1979.3; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:31:39 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:31:39 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Vasilenko Eduard , Mark Smith CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3AAD1KRwABaVVuAADq+OAA== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:31:39 +0000 Message-ID: <2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448d@boeing.com> References: <317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036c@boeing.com> <04e6b9ee0ea54eb49ed8f75711a4f68f@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <04e6b9ee0ea54eb49ed8f75711a4f68f@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: D19E2D09E922E4FCB3B83EA6F4529629EFF8C2213AD5FE13DC9D9C22FF2E544D2000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448dboeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 13:31:57 -0000 --_000_2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448dboeingcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tm3nSp5NCBaB; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB2ED3A0044; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml733-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C3C4CFEFEDD8AF18FE67; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:35:04 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by lhreml733-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:35:04 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:35:03 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:35:03 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Fernando Gont CC: 6man , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Thread-Index: AQHWZ2MUnNPDF6+dz0W13zbI2SbhcKkiBzuAgAAHOoCABIr6k///0IKAgAAjfoCAABGogIAAK7IAgAIIjgCAAFY8QIAAFX+QgAAFaACAAEaNkA== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:35:03 +0000 Message-ID: <7e3e7a229d8846cdb9c0818226944cc5@huawei.com> References: <860E06E2-2650-4AAE-AD33-D4D12B0290DC@fugue.com> <0DDEBA6C-3933-40FC-BB9C-33FA59DC9D76@cisco.com> <4907a159683346789bef5c495f03f95d@boeing.com> <3978163f-8815-1bd4-0fda-d84df9cbe684@gont.com.ar> <6b0d6c0a790b46c893b0ff3051599fb4@boeing.com> <85d89256-a495-d779-2c7c-2573bfae36c5@gont.com.ar> , <02D913B5-17C8-43ED-B572-04FD97420F99@cisco.com> 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--_000_7e3e7a229d8846cdb9c0818226944cc5huaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 5 06:47:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9266B3A07D6; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:47:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HNG27Mql5yx; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3AAD1KRwABaVVuAADq+OAAAApXJA Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:47:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036c@boeing.com> <04e6b9ee0ea54eb49ed8f75711a4f68f@huawei.com> <2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448d@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448d@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a176608ce63c4295b458f2b7c30483d8huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 13:47:53 -0000 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Smith CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael Richardson , v6ops list , 6man Thread-Topic: SLAAC security concerns Thread-Index: AdZqh2IDVN0JAX5fTSutty/fgHiG3AAD1KRwABaVVuAADq+OAAAApXJAAABRc2A= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:58:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3c0bb4ac4d904da0acd4feeb8fd027f7@boeing.com> References: <317f10e39b1f476bbde050be9498036c@boeing.com> <04e6b9ee0ea54eb49ed8f75711a4f68f@huawei.com> <2ec17bbecafa4404acbe01eee4d7448d@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 5207A1E78B173092A5F67C7AA0352A1AAC89B23F1155A9A19E4FED5D088581A32000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3c0bb4ac4d904da0acd4feeb8fd027f7boeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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([2600:8802:5800:652::1989]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lk16sm3346711pjb.13.2020.08.05.08.54.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Aug 2020 08:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A02F060E-8D66-4B1F-BEA9-54139B8A00A3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Message-Id: References: <39C59343-D873-4282-8BD2-A5B6A659B3A0@ietf.org> To: IPv6 Operations Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:54:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: [108all] Final reminder: IETF 108 meeting survey X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 15:54:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A02F060E-8D66-4B1F-BEA9-54139B8A00A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The IETF Chair has asked us to share this note with you. If you have not = responded to the survey, please do. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: IETF Executive Director > > Subject: [108all] Final reminder: IETF 108 meeting survey > Date: August 5, 2020 at 6:30:16 AM EDT > To: 108all@ietf.org >=20 > Thank you very much to the ~230 people who have filled in the IETF 108 = meeting survey as this data is crucial to helping us plan future = meetings. We could still use another 70 or so responses and so this is = a final reminder to please help us by taking a few minutes to complete = the survey: >=20 > https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/T3SL7JF = >=20 > Thanks in advance >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > 108all mailing list > 108all@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108all --Apple-Mail=_A02F060E-8D66-4B1F-BEA9-54139B8A00A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The = IETF Chair has asked us to share this note with you. If you have not = responded to the survey, please do.

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>
Subject: = [108all] Final = reminder: IETF 108 meeting survey
Date: = August 5, 2020 at 6:30:16 AM = EDT
To: = 108all@ietf.org

Thank you very much to the ~230 people who have filled in the = IETF 108 meeting survey as this data is crucial to helping us plan = future meetings.  We could still use another 70 or so responses and = so this is a final reminder to please help us by taking a few minutes to = complete the survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/T3SL7JF

Thanks in advance

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

-- =
108all mailing list
108all@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/108all

= --Apple-Mail=_A02F060E-8D66-4B1F-BEA9-54139B8A00A3-- From nobody Wed Aug 5 11:25:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98813A0EB4 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id praPX8ZFQ79a for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper1-relay.space.net (gatekeeper1-relay.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:3:85::38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17D9E3A0E02 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:24:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=space.net; i=@space.net; q=dns/txt; s=esa; t=1596651898; x=1628187898; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=6IpXkfu6oQ+IXS5qUS8jnxdpGknwJHNOxN7DXkYdzv8=; b=PGDnkCPo0D/RZd12gUyKh5s2Mz4x1aJbwx+cmn7vXEBuFFggciKCYJNn tTrvMdLWJyI22wuBhnEqBe46Xjmk1sBz6UADi86aUoTWBRfNXl+a8/JXk 4QyvpC7KbBNIQX/hkVnQgqGGio8avRPk9pj9LWHTDFY+9WQM43o3wPPh/ sqYsr7iOcXZigAXqfxSZi3El85FFndu4rTeFYOIPgNa84fluumULF0gG+ Tr3EOLH+3+ENz+LZBXyo1WGOm7SEDFxKQ2POyhs/hqgJHVwqrNgHaEt9q /w1IaQqVul67RjRqNCntUeNLJa2LaFwtFGoPg7UHnkc9pq6nurpqyh29/ A==; IronPort-SDR: GWamXI7koRn5A2hG799vTGPfWfS3OKucySYwZW3eWmJRxddOBG/zBGNyrHgUm3Zcpne1PX4o7s oyOmROEBHhcq3OFkXUnGn8IiK6NyB4Z8FAo7/RlJZGhudV3CXweAy9l1LjJREbR68wEoAcDk4k 0diYRLcxuo42IWQ2JFBECMSZJbG5oiEzKNxPHEQBz6Rj4xsJpqI+7Kj6+Xh9MzSgcRSCK2M+uL rP5NX061cEo6H74RYTvJXoE03kFuqhSZjl7XzCH7yJcoiaajjtmkAtwAHnk73zHqBbhiAgP/rP uPw= X-SpaceNet-SBRS: None Received: from mobil.space.net ([195.30.115.67]) by gatekeeper1-relay.space.net with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Aug 2020 20:24:55 +0200 X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DDE42055 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:24:55 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F82840643; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:24:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 38BFBB1694; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:24:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:24:55 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Mark Smith Cc: Gert Doering , Vasilenko Eduard , Michael Richardson , 6man , v6ops list Message-ID: <20200805182455.GF2485@Space.Net> References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k3VvDwkmTpic9dKg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:25:06 -0000 --k3VvDwkmTpic9dKg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:32:56AM +1000, Mark Smith wrote: > Multicast also shifts and distributes state away from a central device. >=20 > A central device is a much bigger consequence point of failure, and is a > harder thing to make redundant due to having to invent a state > synchronisation and load selection or distribution method mechanism betwe= en > a primary and one or more backup nodes. This asks for "broadcast", not for "multicast". To get any benefits from multicast, you now require that all the network elements listen to MLD and understand which multicast packets to hand where. And keep state. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --k3VvDwkmTpic9dKg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAl8q+XQACgkQ31bAZeTO f8VZZRAAolc757q2HtaElRtlhxR5oiNbwADsbJsLJO1Icpp9FwYI000S88E5eopS wdklLc+/32zdmfyImOBx16m4iMpv9+fLTvC9KEwsTVUSCCo6HXpcEZyTlTIcm49f LEIePjcSQ70FFVh3nR9gsLBnntjQKZCyXYSG1a4ZdvBgF+Slpt5xmqvD4mzP54by PqTlLcN/lgZQDNMGWlIF4totxkqy8R6zKa2zm4QJqk0LGk83JEre9ASSpaOFFsCv KGNjB85+F9FveSeAIMXRXp5iZNncGyQ7DzYfb1mrmozdCCw7RhvHYuF2X9q18Btg OuUskFuFrtm+vCbyT6u6qc0Ij3tkwEP+ILMZuXxLLL4MAZbbaHSQuF9KfPpdF9N0 88tVi2cUoh0TtpyfqKhS/Eqz4fRUVrRitKcI5Q3GJoKtezqSU0sov1r7DTo9+MC4 KUG9d76LyotsWVSfsy2lD8k9SqPmRWdaBu+NsnG7OzQf2fIs2wT8aMm3fRAM4XsV COoMCd3eh9tR7V6Qq2CoTlY1uecX8iRWJ/8L/Xk7Ha9k76QtfDBmb70rPB3ukahZ b4vljw0kT+aNH4qvwDRoHY3xOB9doUrNQfadVyeg7+ygqzCCekOsSDl3ad99Bl+E aAYT86GkOYWsw9H0lHvHDx84Gj2IQzimtDyORd2eGHtNl4hDvKY= =r8PS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k3VvDwkmTpic9dKg-- From nobody Wed Aug 5 11:27:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC40F3A0E1F for ; 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05 Aug 2020 20:27:22 +0200 X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5356842058 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:27:22 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A69442052; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:27:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 07E95B171C; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:27:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:27:21 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: Gert Doering , Mark Smith , Michael Richardson , 6man , v6ops list Message-ID: <20200805182721.GG2485@Space.Net> References: <20200804194448.GA2485@Space.Net> <7105a04994d045b890d04b49ef72c31c@huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GiETXi+8pDm5NoBR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7105a04994d045b890d04b49ef72c31c@huawei.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] SLAAC security concerns X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:27:27 -0000 --GiETXi+8pDm5NoBR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 06:26:54AM +0000, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > Hi Gert, > SLAAC dependency on multicast is so huge that it is not possible to make = it worse by 1 additional function. > If L2 would lose ND packets, then many things in SLAAC would not work. Yes. Been there, cursed the vendor of the day, resorted to static ND entries and/or got a software upgrade and/or found the necessary twiddle to make that device well-behave. Multicast for ND sucks about as hard as LLAs for BGP next-hops with a TCP session over GUA. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --GiETXi+8pDm5NoBR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAl8q+gkACgkQ31bAZeTO f8W34g//VK/+Sy029bhv0zy5+HRhwIU4O+URS4OZkDQdkBqxC5AHK8Bk7ncUzLiB if3r+UsOOATF15VlLkS3dkZ3ewvhsvj6/3AM/f9z3Ov3mZfbmMlBZKkmSDSJzSYR Ixf4m3lhRLg2hEC4ycjUWZ/noHQMbwos8DvQ7K5/zJzllrMhJDsRVK2CWV9h69R5 kkenJ2DVaj79JToSk2T5Ro/A99DwTxVrzdF+j3vk3UYxBoasBvp1/EnteeW0CL9+ 7fAQzWkI2v46Fde2kc1zm2YgnsEZNSUaeUy1VIdVs01dS0eYhFyeeDO01fNt10Tg iM3lhRpPV1DwlVaZBd9B68QrVpkZIjOEWO5AS20xYkOF4s+RiTk8W8gcrxcIYLJq AvHbdfFWeOzsicH54yieB4y3zq1KxiRt+vqKTsGrh+Fk+t4Y5NKzxQ49AfeVoBTC ykaQ7n2+RU6qOwJA6HOvyG/c28gv4Oh2Js2q5JLY4HurdMX0ndCXB8tyCtUnIyWp u1npDzzHqImSlGi8VClOu2O4xLFkNBD3/PGqMnpYB1JAjJO4AgxcekE8GKdR2JmN hTLyFYA33KzrPFPTILCTph9QVp5ZOESfJefCGSFFLC+w8ph0j5n7IYloILFDlu3u Y1kesCKGE4N5qKuJc9OCeD+QY0jl16578Fn5pZ+UYO9gtM/ZHCo= =b5+F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GiETXi+8pDm5NoBR-- From nobody Thu Aug 6 06:42:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102353A046E for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bt.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nLf_vWcQUK3F for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 06:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 02:04:29 -0000 HI Pascal, Sorry for not responding, vacation.. It looks to me that what you are suggesting can be achieved by setting L bit to zero in PIOs. In that case hosts would send all traffic to routers and upon receiving a redirect would learn that the given destination is actually on-link. Or am I missing anything? On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:21 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Jen > > Since the router is prepopulated, it knows the ND resolution before hosts= do. > > So say a third party host has traffic to send and the prefix is online. I= t will store one packet and multicast a lookup to the snma of this node. It= will drop the other packets. > > An alternate behavior in a network where GRAND is enabled could be to sta= rt by forwarding the packets to the router in case of aN ND cache miss. > > If the router already has an NCE there will not be a lookup at all. The r= outer will redirect immediately and relay the packets in the meantime. No d= elay, no loss. And no multicast... > > If the router does not have a cache, it will do the NS lookup. And eventu= ally redirect anyway if the traffic continues. Same overall cost, with the = benefit that the router now has the cache ready in case yet another host ne= eds it. > > Overall benefits day 1, incrementally useful as GRAND gets deployed. > > Cherry on the cake: the router may be more SAVI-savvy than this host so i= t may redirect to the real first-come node. > > What do you think? > > Pascal > > Le 30 juil. 2020 =C3=A0 12:37, Lorenzo Colitti a =C3=A9crit : > > =EF=BB=BF > I think the fact is that ND is inherently insecure from on-link attacks. = If security is desired, then it needs to be provided in other ways, such as= via SEND or SAVI. But it's also not particularly desirable to provide secu= rity at this layer. Traffic snooping is not very useful (not zero utility, = but difficult to use well) when all traffic is encrypted, and on-link DoS a= ttacks just aren't very useful these days given that many devices have a va= riety of connectivity options. > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:05 PM Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >> >> Then it is not logical for me: >> Many people understand that "Unsolicited NA" is a big security hole per = se, >> But instead of fixing it (may be even deprecate - should be investigated= ) >> Additional functionality is building on top of it. >> It would additionally challenge this security problem resolution in the = future! >> >> Again: "Unsolicited NA" with Override bit set - is a disaster now.. >> IMHO: it is better to prohibit "Unsolicited NA". Let's wait timers for t= he case of MAC address change on legitimate host. >> May be we could think about other solutions. >> But if additional functionality would be built on top of "Unsolicited NA= " - less options would be available ("deprecate" would be not a choice anym= ore). >> >> If something is ill - it should be cured first - bodybuilding make sense= only after this. >> >> Jen, I have not understood below why you did mention RA Guard. Intruder = does not need it. He just claim (by Unsolicited NA) that his MAC is connect= ed to GUA of victim. >> Intruder could claim it every 5 seconds to keep cache in STALE state (fo= r the case of very careful vendor implementation of ND). >> As you mentioned - no help from MLD snooping on switches - it would be e= nough to just listen to DAD. Switch could not help in principle. >> The first modified DNS response would convert traffic flow to bi-directi= onal for Intruder. >> >> Ed/ >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jen Linkova [mailto:furry13@gmail.com] >> Sent: 30 =D0=B8=D1=8E=D0=BB=D1=8F 2020 =D0=B3. 5:07 >> To: Vasilenko Eduard >> Cc: 6man ; v6ops@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional security = concerns >> >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:56 AM Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >> > You did ask a feedback yesterday about severity of 7sec security hole = that has very low probability. >> > I have intention here to show that probability is 100%, 7sec could be = prolonged to forever, and the final result is the full interception of inno= cent host traffic by intruder (successful "man-in-the-middle"). >> > >> > Pre-request for success: >> > - no multicast snooping (MLD) and filtering on a switch, that is >> > perfectly possible >> > - Intruder should be already on the same subnet (gained control over >> > other host by exploiting of different vulnerability) >> > - intruder should suppress DAD on Intruder's controlled host (is >> > Windows firewall capable to filter out DAD?) >> > - We assume that we are talking about the future when this draft is >> > used by majority of nodes (victim should use it) >> > >> > Procedure: >> > Intruder's controlled host does listen to all-routers multicast addres= s (ff02::2). >> > As soon as it would eavesdrop unsolicited NA from victim node (probabl= y after boot) - Intruder would immediately (a few milliseconds) duplicate N= A in router's direction, but with 2 changes: (1) his LLA (MAC); (2) Overrid= e bit set. >> > Intruder has time only up to the point that response to victim's traff= ic would be returned from the Internet (from tens of milliseconds to many s= econds if victim would not start sending immediately), - but it is enough t= ime: local communication should be faster. >> > Theoretically, RetransTimer should be imposed on unsolicited NA (secti= on 7.2.6), but low chances that this timer is checked on receiving side (ro= uter), because RetransTimer is specified for transmission side. >> > According RFC 4681 section 7.2.5 clause II: O bit set should not just = rewrite ND cache, but additionally mark ND record as REACHABLE. According t= o section 7.2.6: " The Override flag (for unsolicited NA) MAY be set to eit= her zero or one". Despite it contradicts to the logic of the whole RFC 4681= (O bit should not be set in unsolicited NA - it is mentioned in a few plac= es of RFC 4681). But because section 7.2.5 and section 7.2.6 clearly permit= to use Override flag - higher probability that particular implementation w= ould not just rewrite LLA on router, but additionally put it into REACHABLE= . >> > Intruder could be sure that at least STALE state would be created acco= rding to section 7.2.5 clause I, - this ND record would be against his LLA = anyway. >> > After receiving return traffic (if it was created as STALE, not REACHA= BLE) - router would ask intruder about reachability (solicited NS-NA) - int= ruder would confirm his LLA - it would finally put ND cache record into REA= CHABLE. >> >> 1) the 7 seconds corner case was for 'preventing address collision for O= ptimistic DAD', not for any intentional attacks case. Because: >> 2) What you are describing could be done today, now, anytime w/o the cha= nges described in the draft. If there is no MLD snooping then the intruder = would see the DAD packet from the victim, so it would know the victim addre= ss anyway - no reason even to join ff02::2. Now all the attacker needs to = do is to keep sending NA with S=3D1, O=3D1 - hoping that when the first pac= ket of the return flows arrive and the router creates an INCOMPLETE entry a= nd sends an NS, the attacker's packet would come before the victim's NA. Do= ne, the entry is changed to REACHABLE, all traffic goes to the attacker. >> Actually even simpler. The attacker does not need to deal with timing. >> Let's say the router has an NC entry for the victim address in any other= state than INCOMPLETE. The attacker sends an NA with S=3D1, O=3D1, Target = address =3D the victim's IPv6 address, the TLLA =3D the attacker MAC addres= s. Done. The router updates the cache entry and changes it to REACHABLE st= ate. >> >> There is nothing new here. We have the same issue with ARP - the attacke= r can override ARP entry on the router. >> >> > That's it: upstream traffic of victim host is going to router, traffic= back is going through Intruder. >> > I have consulted with penetration tests professional (these are people= with the same qualification as hackers but they play on legal side): what = he would be doing next? He said that he would return traffic to legitimate = host - victim should not see performance degradation. He would collect cook= ies and some other valuable information. He would finally see DNS response,= change it and redirect everything to himself on the permanent basis - he d= oes want to see both directions of victim exchange. He has qualified Man-in= -the-middle as full fiasco - it does open many opportunities for him. He ha= s mentioned very good feature of this draft that there is no any interrupti= on for victim's traffic flow, no any excessive traffic to victim, that is v= ery rear benefit for hacker's tool. >> >> For all that doom and gloom the attacker would also need to see the traf= fic *from* the victim. Assuming the network has RA Guard in place it would = be a bit harder. If the network does not have RA Guard our poor victim has = much bigger problems already. >> >> > What to do about it? >> > 1. Potentially it is possible to do RPF-like check for Source LLA addr= esses. Upstream traffic from victim's SLLA would not be in ND cache - such = traffic could be discarded. It is better to block communication than permit= intruder to exploit vulnerability. >> >> > 2. Increase RetransTimer and ask receiver side (router) to check on se= nding side delay between ND record override (for the same SLLA). But how lo= ng should be the timer? Host could wait a lo-o-o-ng time before it would re= quest 1st information from internet. It would decrease probability, but wou= ld not completely eliminate attack vector. >> > >> > My proposition for this draft is disruptive: >> > I believe that ND is very complicated (some could say "fragile") - it = is better not to touch it. >> > Additionally I do not like to wait till all hosts would refresh to new= draft (to get new functionality). >> >> Well, only hosts which want to connect to the network faster need to imp= lement this. So host OS developers have pretty good incentive here. >> Please keep in mind that the proposed behavior is not currently prohibit= ed. We are not changing any MUST NOT to anything else. All we are doing is = to making some recommendations more explicit. >> >> > I propose to change only router behavior: check Source LLA (MAC) for e= very packet, if this SLLA is absent in ND cache - then request solicited NS= -NA immediately. It would probably resolve faster than traffic would return= from the internet. >> >> Have you checked the problem statement draft? >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-03#= section-3.7 >> specificatlly? >> What you are proposing does make sense, however it would not help in cas= e of multiple routers. Also I recall some people having strong opinions on = performance implications. >> >> > Effectively I do proposed the same SLLA RPF that is needed to fix curr= ent solution, but: >> > - without any modification to host OSes >> > - without any modification of standard (it is local recommendation for >> > router, NS-NA is exactly the same from RFC 4681, NA is unicast - it is >> > important for security) >> > - without any risk to break ND fragile algorithm >> > - it could be optional, or even configurable on the router as "value >> > add feature" in competitive tender Because it is just best practice re= commendation - may be it make sense to move it to "v6ops"? >> >> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init= -03 >> >> > PS: Looking to the above - unsolicited NA should be really delayed by = additional big timer (not by RetransTimer that is used for solicited NS/NA)= and checked on receiver side - this modification of standard is really nee= ded to close Unsolicited NA vulnerability. >> > Somebody said on the call that it is already a feature of some OS (And= roid?) - it is bad: it means that this OS is already vulnerable. >> >> I was saying that some routing platforms have this already implemented. = Search for 'glean' here: >> https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/ipv6_basic/configurati= on/15-e/ip6b-15-e-book/ip6-nd-cache-mgmt.html >> >> AFAIK there are implementations which are also prepopulating NC from DAD= packets but I can not find you a reference right now. >> >> > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jen Linkova >> > Sent: 27 =D0=B8=D1=8E=D0=BB=D1=8F 2020 =D0=B3. 7:49 >> > To: 6man >> > Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01.txt >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > The -01 version addresses comments received (thanks everyone who provi= ded feedback). Also, Section 3 (Avoiding Disruption) has been expanded and = discussed a corner case when two devices start using the same address almos= t at the same time (the second device configures an optimistic address afte= r the rightful owner sent some packets but before the return traffic arrive= s). >> > Feedback on the updated section 3.3 >> > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01#section-3.3) is = very much appreciated. >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 10:14 AM wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d= irectories. >> > > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance WG of the IETF. >> > > >> > > Title : Gratuitous Neighbor Discovery: Creating Ne= ighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers >> > > Author : Jen Linkova >> > > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-grand-01.txt >> > > Pages : 12 >> > > Date : 2020-07-25 >> > > >> > > Abstract: >> > > Neighbor Discovery (RFC4861) is used by IPv6 nodes to determine t= he >> > > link-layer addresses of neighboring nodes as well as to discover = and >> > > maintain reachability information. This document updates RFC4861= to >> > > allow routers to proactively create a Neighbor Cache entry when a= new >> > > IPv6 address is assigned to a node. It also updates RFC4861 and >> > > recommends nodes to send unsolicited Neighbor Advertisements upon >> > > assigning a new IPv6 address. The proposed change will minimize = the >> > > delay and packet loss when a node initiate connections to off-lin= k >> > > destination from a new IPv6 address. >> > > >> > > >> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-grand/ >> > > >> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 >> > > >> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: >> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-grand-01 >> > > >> > > >> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tool= s..ietf.org. >> > > >> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative >> > > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> -- >> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > 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Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo+ ID4NCj4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K PiA+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAtLQ0KPiBT WSwgSmVuIExpbmtvdmEgYWthIEZ1cnJ5DQo= From nobody Fri Aug 7 02:28:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB2E3A0E1E; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 09:28:43 -0000 SGkgUGFzY2FsLA0KWW91IHByb3Bvc2l0aW9uIGZvciAiaG93IHRvIGF2b2lkIG11bHRpY2FzdCIg KGJ5IGluaXRpYWwgcmVkaXJlY3QgdGhyb3VnaCByb3V0ZXIpIGlzIGludGVyZXN0aW5nLiBJIHdv dWxkIHRoaW5rIGFib3V0IGl0IG1vcmU6IGl0IGhhcyBwcm9zIGFuZCBjb25zLg0KDQpCdXQgaG93 IGlzIGl0IHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gR1JBTkQ/IEl0IHNob3VsZCBub3QgaGVscCB0byB3YXJtLXVwIGNh Y2hlIG9uIFJvdXRlci4NCkdSQU5EIGFzc3VtZXMgdGhhdCBob3N0IHNlbmRzIDFzdCBwYWNrZXQg d2l0aCB1c2VyIGRhdGEsIHJvdXRlciBkb2VzIG5vdCBoYXZlIHByb3BlciBlbnRyeSBmb3IgdGhp cyBob3N0IHlldC4NClJlZGlyZWN0IGZ1bmN0aW9uIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBoZWxwIHRvIHBvcHVsYXRl IHJvdXRlciBjYWNoZSBpbiBpbml0aWFsIHN0YWdlICh0aGF0IGlzIEdSQU5EIHRyeWluZyB0byBz b2x2ZSkuDQoNCk9yIHlvdSBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCBuZXcgaG9zdCB3b3VsZCBpbml0aWFsbHkgY29t bXVuaWNhdGUgaW5zaWRlIHN1Ym5ldCAod2l0aCBzb21lIG90aGVyIGhvc3QpLCB0aGF0IHdvdWxk 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DQo+Pj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCj4+PiAN Cj4+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4+ IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KPj4+IA0KPj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQo+Pj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiAtLQ0KPj4gU1ksIEplbiBMaW5rb3ZhIGFr YSBGdXJyeQ0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0K From nobody Fri Aug 7 04:57:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D313A09B8; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 04:57:17 -0700 (PDT) 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Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:57:08 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:57:08 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:57:08 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Jen Linkova , 6man , IPv6 Operations , Jen Linkova Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1a/pXlTW2isS0uZz3jAApjDoKkrvR+AgABsmQCAAD7mkP//2JaAgABUJUA= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:57:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <113615875a5a4b30bf0b73d7241d3bd1@huawei.com> <145BF070-3FDD-4A86-9056-784A67A8CDD5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <145BF070-3FDD-4A86-9056-784A67A8CDD5@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.194.202] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 11:57:17 -0000 T0suIFVuZGVyc3Rvb2QuDQpZb3UgYXJlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgZnVuY3Rpb25hbGl0 eSBvbiB0b3Agb2YgdGhlIEdSQU5ELg0KR1JBTkQgaXMgcHJlLXJlcXVlc3QuDQpFZC8NCi0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBQYXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIFtt 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X19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Sat Aug 8 04:16:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EB63A0B79; Sat, 8 Aug 2020 04:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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Sat, 08 Aug 2020 04:16:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 21:16:21 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Jen Linkova , IPv6 Operations , 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2020 11:16:37 -0000 On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:33 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > I'm effectively describing the behavior of the host when the prefix is no= t on-link, in combination with GRAND. Together, they can mostly eliminate m= ulticast lookup., which is, well, grand. There is one catch here, I'm afraid. I might be mistaken but AFAIK hosts are able to cache more packets while doing address resolution than routers. So if hosts start sending all traffic to onlink-destinations and the router does not have the NC entry for that address, then we are back to the original problem of 'all packets but the very first one is dropped' but at the bigger scale. > As I read it, the L bit when reset indicates an address from that prefix = is not signaled to be reachable on the multicast domain. IOW It may or may = not be reachable. So the RFC 4861 address resolution may not work, better n= ot use it. Instead pass the packets to the router to route beyond the broad= cast domain. > > So yes, one quick and dirty way to get there would be to RECOMMEND that t= he prefix is advertised as not on-link (L=3D0) in general. We get the corre= ct operation, but then this defeats the semantics of the bit, doesn't it? Does it? I don't think so... Setting L=3D1 means 'addresses in that prefix are considered on-link', so if the address does not exist in the NC, the host needs to send an NS for that address. L=3D0 means 'if you haven't received an explicit indication that the address is onlink, don't use Neighbor Discovery for that address but use your default route instead'. Isn't it what you want? We also need to take into account reliability of redirects here.. Anyway, just to confirm - it doesn't look like your suggestion changes anything for this draft, right? Possible optimisations built on top of GRAND can be described separately.. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jen Linkova > > Sent: vendredi 7 ao=C3=BBt 2020 04:04 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Cc: Jen Linkova ; IPv6 Operations ; > > 6man > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups > > > > HI Pascal, > > > > Sorry for not responding, vacation.. > > > > It looks to me that what you are suggesting can be achieved by setting = L bit to > > zero in PIOs. In that case hosts would send all traffic to routers and = upon > > receiving a redirect would learn that the given destination is actually= on-link. > > Or am I missing anything? > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:21 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Jen > > > > > > Since the router is prepopulated, it knows the ND resolution before h= osts > > do. > > > > > > So say a third party host has traffic to send and the prefix is onlin= e. It will > > store one packet and multicast a lookup to the snma of this node. It wi= ll drop > > the other packets. > > > > > > An alternate behavior in a network where GRAND is enabled could be to > > start by forwarding the packets to the router in case of aN ND cache mi= ss. > > > > > > If the router already has an NCE there will not be a lookup at all. T= he router > > will redirect immediately and relay the packets in the meantime. No del= ay, no > > loss. And no multicast... > > > > > > If the router does not have a cache, it will do the NS lookup. And ev= entually > > redirect anyway if the traffic continues. Same overall cost, with the b= enefit > > that the router now has the cache ready in case yet another host needs = it. > > > > > > Overall benefits day 1, incrementally useful as GRAND gets deployed. > > > > > > Cherry on the cake: the router may be more SAVI-savvy than this host = so it > > may redirect to the real first-come node. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > Le 30 juil. 2020 =C3=A0 12:37, Lorenzo Colitti > > a =C3=A9crit : > > > > > > > > > I think the fact is that ND is inherently insecure from on-link attac= ks. If > > security is desired, then it needs to be provided in other ways, such a= s via > > SEND or SAVI. But it's also not particularly desirable to provide secur= ity at this > > layer. Traffic snooping is not very useful (not zero utility, but diffi= cult to use > > well) when all traffic is encrypted, and on-link DoS attacks just aren'= t very > > useful these days given that many devices have a variety of connectivit= y > > options. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:05 PM Vasilenko Eduard > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Then it is not logical for me: > > >> Many people understand that "Unsolicited NA" is a big security hole > > >> per se, But instead of fixing it (may be even deprecate - should be > > >> investigated) Additional functionality is building on top of it. > > >> It would additionally challenge this security problem resolution in = the > > future! > > >> > > >> Again: "Unsolicited NA" with Override bit set - is a disaster now.. > > >> IMHO: it is better to prohibit "Unsolicited NA". Let's wait timers f= or the > > case of MAC address change on legitimate host. > > >> May be we could think about other solutions. > > >> But if additional functionality would be built on top of "Unsolicite= d NA" - > > less options would be available ("deprecate" would be not a choice anym= ore). > > >> > > >> If something is ill - it should be cured first - bodybuilding make s= ense only > > after this. > > >> > > >> Jen, I have not understood below why you did mention RA Guard. Intru= der > > does not need it. He just claim (by Unsolicited NA) that his MAC is con= nected > > to GUA of victim. > > >> Intruder could claim it every 5 seconds to keep cache in STALE state= (for > > the case of very careful vendor implementation of ND). > > >> As you mentioned - no help from MLD snooping on switches - it would = be > > enough to just listen to DAD. Switch could not help in principle. > > >> The first modified DNS response would convert traffic flow to bi-dir= ectional > > for Intruder. > > >> > > >> Ed/ > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Jen Linkova [mailto:furry13@gmail.com] > > >> Sent: 30 =D0=B8=D1=8E=D0=BB=D1=8F 2020 =D0=B3. 5:07 > > >> To: Vasilenko Eduard > > >> Cc: 6man ; v6ops@ietf.org > > >> Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional > > >> security concerns > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:56 AM Vasilenko Eduard > > wrote: > > >> > You did ask a feedback yesterday about severity of 7sec security h= ole that > > has very low probability. > > >> > I have intention here to show that probability is 100%, 7sec could= be > > prolonged to forever, and the final result is the full interception of = innocent > > host traffic by intruder (successful "man-in-the-middle"). > > >> > > > >> > Pre-request for success: > > >> > - no multicast snooping (MLD) and filtering on a switch, that is > > >> > perfectly possible > > >> > - Intruder should be already on the same subnet (gained control > > >> > over other host by exploiting of different vulnerability) > > >> > - intruder should suppress DAD on Intruder's controlled host (is > > >> > Windows firewall capable to filter out DAD?) > > >> > - We assume that we are talking about the future when this draft i= s > > >> > used by majority of nodes (victim should use it) > > >> > > > >> > Procedure: > > >> > Intruder's controlled host does listen to all-routers multicast ad= dress > > (ff02::2). > > >> > As soon as it would eavesdrop unsolicited NA from victim node (pro= bably > > after boot) - Intruder would immediately (a few milliseconds) duplicate= NA in > > router's direction, but with 2 changes: (1) his LLA (MAC); (2) Override= bit set. > > >> > Intruder has time only up to the point that response to victim's t= raffic > > would be returned from the Internet (from tens of milliseconds to many > > seconds if victim would not start sending immediately), - but it is eno= ugh time: > > local communication should be faster. > > >> > Theoretically, RetransTimer should be imposed on unsolicited NA (s= ection > > 7.2.6), but low chances that this timer is checked on receiving side (r= outer), > > because RetransTimer is specified for transmission side. > > >> > According RFC 4681 section 7.2.5 clause II: O bit set should not j= ust > > rewrite ND cache, but additionally mark ND record as REACHABLE. Accordi= ng > > to section 7.2.6: " The Override flag (for unsolicited NA) MAY be set t= o either > > zero or one". Despite it contradicts to the logic of the whole RFC 4681= (O bit > > should not be set in unsolicited NA - it is mentioned in a few places o= f RFC > > 4681). But because section 7.2.5 and section 7.2.6 clearly permit to us= e > > Override flag - higher probability that particular implementation would= not > > just rewrite LLA on router, but additionally put it into REACHABLE.. > > >> > Intruder could be sure that at least STALE state would be created > > according to section 7.2.5 clause I, - this ND record would be against = his LLA > > anyway. > > >> > After receiving return traffic (if it was created as STALE, not RE= ACHABLE) - > > router would ask intruder about reachability (solicited NS-NA) - intrud= er would > > confirm his LLA - it would finally put ND cache record into REACHABLE. > > >> > > >> 1) the 7 seconds corner case was for 'preventing address collision f= or > > Optimistic DAD', not for any intentional attacks case. Because: > > >> 2) What you are describing could be done today, now, anytime w/o the > > changes described in the draft. If there is no MLD snooping then the in= truder > > would see the DAD packet from the victim, so it would know the victim > > address anyway - no reason even to join ff02::2. Now all the attacker = needs to > > do is to keep sending NA with S=3D1, O=3D1 - hoping that when the first= packet of > > the return flows arrive and the router creates an INCOMPLETE entry and = sends > > an NS, the attacker's packet would come before the victim's NA. Done, t= he > > entry is changed to REACHABLE, all traffic goes to the attacker. > > >> Actually even simpler. The attacker does not need to deal with timin= g. > > >> Let's say the router has an NC entry for the victim address in any o= ther > > state than INCOMPLETE. The attacker sends an NA with S=3D1, O=3D1, Targ= et > > address =3D the victim's IPv6 address, the TLLA =3D the attacker MAC ad= dress. > > Done. The router updates the cache entry and changes it to REACHABLE st= ate. > > >> > > >> There is nothing new here. We have the same issue with ARP - the att= acker > > can override ARP entry on the router. > > >> > > >> > That's it: upstream traffic of victim host is going to router, tra= ffic back is > > going through Intruder. > > >> > I have consulted with penetration tests professional (these are pe= ople > > with the same qualification as hackers but they play on legal side): wh= at he > > would be doing next? He said that he would return traffic to legitimate= host - > > victim should not see performance degradation. He would collect cookies= and > > some other valuable information. He would finally see DNS response, cha= nge > > it and redirect everything to himself on the permanent basis - he does = want to > > see both directions of victim exchange. He has qualified Man-in-the-mid= dle as > > full fiasco - it does open many opportunities for him. He has mentioned= very > > good feature of this draft that there is no any interruption for victim= 's traffic > > flow, no any excessive traffic to victim, that is very rear benefit for= hacker's > > tool. > > >> > > >> For all that doom and gloom the attacker would also need to see the = traffic > > *from* the victim. Assuming the network has RA Guard in place it would = be a > > bit harder. If the network does not have RA Guard our poor victim has m= uch > > bigger problems already. > > >> > > >> > What to do about it? > > >> > 1. Potentially it is possible to do RPF-like check for Source LLA = addresses. > > Upstream traffic from victim's SLLA would not be in ND cache - such tra= ffic > > could be discarded. It is better to block communication than permit int= ruder > > to exploit vulnerability. > > >> > > >> > 2. Increase RetransTimer and ask receiver side (router) to check o= n > > sending side delay between ND record override (for the same SLLA). But = how > > long should be the timer? Host could wait a lo-o-o-ng time before it wo= uld > > request 1st information from internet. It would decrease probability, b= ut > > would not completely eliminate attack vector. > > >> > > > >> > My proposition for this draft is disruptive: > > >> > I believe that ND is very complicated (some could say "fragile") -= it is > > better not to touch it. > > >> > Additionally I do not like to wait till all hosts would refresh to= new draft > > (to get new functionality). > > >> > > >> Well, only hosts which want to connect to the network faster need to > > implement this. So host OS developers have pretty good incentive here. > > >> Please keep in mind that the proposed behavior is not currently proh= ibited. > > We are not changing any MUST NOT to anything else. All we are doing is = to > > making some recommendations more explicit. > > >> > > >> > I propose to change only router behavior: check Source LLA (MAC) f= or > > every packet, if this SLLA is absent in ND cache - then request solicit= ed NS-NA > > immediately. It would probably resolve faster than traffic would return= from > > the internet. > > >> > > >> Have you checked the problem statement draft? > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init= - > > >> 03#section-3.7 > > >> specificatlly? > > >> What you are proposing does make sense, however it would not help in > > case of multiple routers. Also I recall some people having strong opini= ons on > > performance implications. > > >> > > >> > Effectively I do proposed the same SLLA RPF that is needed to fix = current > > solution, but: > > >> > - without any modification to host OSes > > >> > - without any modification of standard (it is local recommendation > > >> > for router, NS-NA is exactly the same from RFC 4681, NA is unicast > > >> > - it is important for security) > > >> > - without any risk to break ND fragile algorithm > > >> > - it could be optional, or even configurable on the router as > > >> > "value add feature" in competitive tender Because it is just best = practice > > recommendation - may be it make sense to move it to "v6ops"? > > >> > > >> See > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init= - > > >> 03 > > >> > > >> > PS: Looking to the above - unsolicited NA should be really delayed= by > > additional big timer (not by RetransTimer that is used for solicited NS= /NA) and > > checked on receiver side - this modification of standard is really need= ed to > > close Unsolicited NA vulnerability. > > >> > Somebody said on the call that it is already a feature of some OS > > (Android?) - it is bad: it means that this OS is already vulnerable. > > >> > > >> I was saying that some routing platforms have this already implement= ed. > > Search for 'glean' here: > > >> https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/ipv6_basic/configu= r > > >> ation/15-e/ip6b-15-e-book/ip6-nd-cache-mgmt.html > > >> > > >> AFAIK there are implementations which are also prepopulating NC from > > DAD packets but I can not find you a reference right now. > > >> > > >> > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jen Linkova > > >> > Sent: 27 =D0=B8=D1=8E=D0=BB=D1=8F 2020 =D0=B3. 7:49 > > >> > To: 6man > > >> > Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01.txt > > >> > > > >> > Hello, > > >> > > > >> > The -01 version addresses comments received (thanks everyone who > > provided feedback). Also, Section 3 (Avoiding Disruption) has been expa= nded > > and discussed a corner case when two devices start using the same addre= ss > > almost at the same time (the second device configures an optimistic add= ress > > after the rightful owner sent some packets but before the return traffi= c > > arrives). > > >> > Feedback on the updated section 3.3 > > >> > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01#section-3.3)= is very > > much appreciated. > > >> > > > >> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 10:14 AM wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draf= ts > > directories. > > >> > > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance WG of the IETF= . > > >> > > > > >> > > Title : Gratuitous Neighbor Discovery: Creatin= g Neighbor > > Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers > > >> > > Author : Jen Linkova > > >> > > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-grand-01.txt > > >> > > Pages : 12 > > >> > > Date : 2020-07-25 > > >> > > > > >> > > Abstract: > > >> > > Neighbor Discovery (RFC4861) is used by IPv6 nodes to determi= ne the > > >> > > link-layer addresses of neighboring nodes as well as to disco= ver and > > >> > > maintain reachability information. This document updates RFC= 4861 > > to > > >> > > allow routers to proactively create a Neighbor Cache entry wh= en a > > new > > >> > > IPv6 address is assigned to a node. It also updates RFC4861 = and > > >> > > recommends nodes to send unsolicited Neighbor Advertisements > > upon > > >> > > assigning a new IPv6 address. The proposed change will minim= ize the > > >> > > delay and packet loss when a node initiate connections to off= -link > > >> > > destination from a new IPv6 address. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-grand/ > > >> > > > > >> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 > > >> > > > > >> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-grand-01 > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time o= f > > >> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > tools..ietf.org. > > >> > > > > >> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > >> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------= - > > >> > > --- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org > > >> > > Administrative > > >> > > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------= - > > >> > > --- > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > >> > - IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrativ= e > > >> > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > >> > - > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> v6ops mailing list > > >> v6ops@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sat Aug 8 04:38:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E953A0B9F; Sat, 8 Aug 2020 04:38:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, 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AOAM530x/2c4XGW0eHiKroNULKa52r1uoM1L3Za3I8nKAbilstC0SotZ UFyoV2g6jLT5SN+h3v92g6wBHftaw5NJpkNsUfCTN8Hj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwc4xlVC1qpgAj68x5c1PnGB7jEulR1clRnyC2nWCWWrCAhgAOYYJfK5InGeSXaB6vZ5rQkS5b6xALqiY93WPQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a354:: with SMTP id m81mr21504963qke.277.1596965342816; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 02:29:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 19:28:51 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Jen Linkova , IPv6 Operations , 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:29:05 -0000 On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:38 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Maybe the host should renew the NCE in the router periodically ? GRAND currently focuses on 'a new address being added to the interface' scenario. It does not solve the case of a node starts using an already configured address after a long period of inactivity. I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): "A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. What does the WG think? -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sun Aug 9 02:40:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF61F3A0C36; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 02:40:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.998, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gDsul4B66H5M; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 02:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 865833A0C20; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 02:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id z22so6250085oid.1; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 02:40:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f1PVpRfXa4A4WGzSb+ctMi08R4o5t4IKrRHJoeMCn+4=; b=ZlCeI4YafRWZkqggkj045TtFZHv1WtMVuEzETqa0BXujbzWCpH5NDo3Pdj1g3NuBI/ FVgpC1hGV4/TLM3xjXzbrHIbEFImyWWoXsXM1Db8At5HWzQnE5qM8oTHk8FVFwQvkWDF ozCLC7TOUN+UbUfw3td6rQBedr+fZTJEazGdk/uT6LAu/HSEBzUd2nk7RTeFTCtPiWcb yVhCuEkcAP/C1XZtauvrkV9wlxx/vQXnnqvQwXYqEqQG3y79v1XLNMhuWwRR0LXfrdE9 GsgfmMK9aOmPi9HuJFj58NRpNNsia5l8DZdaPjcy2fV1cnEhAxdX+M73WxuGJOXay5hE I7RA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f1PVpRfXa4A4WGzSb+ctMi08R4o5t4IKrRHJoeMCn+4=; b=lbY9w8Ip0vum8Vt6Hz7czHndEo0UJGvk76U50Jf1AZ707y3qE9UzzUkBGyBv2sW4Un eMCrLGV06b5ApUKSo13TL/cbmquqwNNMu5PDA0pUOvWQECEcAdBaKMkaAw0IgXR/a+8f IP2XaseGMRy/SGMkzziQefMc9ZX5bPUqwxwgkPAirm5K9tLpy+6KX+qH4yb1+Y/H62Bt 4Vm25cUq0U6FIUCURh7udQYrgXpJdOiPPs/4zrsS6Ixn7jc9bRdBPzOdDGv1j6o/MNN2 iEPrL2lh0f3uSbmgEFwi34DRyXvaXd9sIrCXH33PA5/HGcLVp5/ORHD+bPh0S9vwD/lc rhCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337cX5rgO5zRPJY/bhIfyYttOMecLwE/3KPDqretnacqY6FD70Y 6d2c9JEVVHI4yYJBz/J59gToSny4EkNgeEXjoJ0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzxTnJzUTNteHVmQ7sujDuD3hBko0A+yRUprZm88kb049EsDoF9gR/yI9mfsSoJOqL7OgX+qMuKlg2OG+InyKw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:120b:: with SMTP id 11mr17877761ois.54.1596966012841; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 02:40:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 19:40:00 +1000 Message-ID: To: Jen Linkova Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , 6man , IPv6 Operations , Jen Linkova Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9f30405ac6e9f27" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:40:15 -0000 --000000000000e9f30405ac6e9f27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 19:29 Jen Linkova, wrote: > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:38 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > Maybe the host should renew the NCE in the router periodically ? > > GRAND currently focuses on 'a new address being added to the > interface' scenario. It does not solve the case of a node starts using > an already configured address after a long period of inactivity. > > I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): > "A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses > periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." > > On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for > addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. > Won't NUD probes keep those entries current in the routers' cache, even though hosts may not be actively using them? I've thought that something like GRAND + NUD is starting to approach an address registration protocol, or at least, makes the routers' cache the "active addresses on a link" database. Regards, Mark. > What does the WG think? > > > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000e9f30405ac6e9f27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 19:29 Jen Linkova, <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:38 PM Pascal Thubert (pthu= bert)
<pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
> Maybe the host should renew the NCE in the router periodically ?

GRAND currently focuses on 'a new address being added to the
interface' scenario. It does not solve the case of a node starts using<= br> an already configured address after a long period of inactivity.

I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text):
"A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses
periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers."<= br>
On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for
addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use.


<= div dir=3D"auto">Won't NUD probes keep those entries current in the rou= ters' cache, even though hosts may not be actively using them?

I've thought that something = like GRAND + NUD is starting to approach an address registration protocol, = or at least, makes the routers' cache the "active addresses on a l= ink" database.

Rega= rds,
Mark.


What does the WG think?





--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

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cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305) (Smail #157) id m1k4nX7-0000ICC; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 17:46:49 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Cc: 6man From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 7 Aug 2020 08:32:54 +0000 ." Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 17:46:48 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 15:46:57 -0000 > So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the > lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, > and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a > distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be reached > directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid > broadcast lookups. Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send traffic to its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache. It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from clearing the L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no write a draft that describes the use of such a bit. From nobody Sun Aug 9 09:03:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E6D3A0D14 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rw6eHjrSqTz1 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C15E3A0D08 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id l13so3120422qvt.10 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=4MPqPgrtQBcaESP0NBhtoUzmOKP7kBTWqRgXgpq0mWM=; b=cWq9Dtwv+rK4P5RZF3ybRpip3yDMkphUAfyxa1Z0srgFVkZK+6C9sy8/bhoolulTBN TRtjXUgF/jIsvIEgMBsLKWjuNORsIUkIPr7L+4+5GrnCJa4R4xglE7CoPUFcdX9ucp3+ W0CxNlIGFpdbMwqL/zW33KBhADUxhhNNDqej7Pi6RmDykkXyAWS3u1eHywwBG8gQDBig 1kYEv7JtUq5NdSsLMoSZWH1ACkrNT8Ym22GejRlZXmltUG2iqrnWrjbno4flP95zhA0H UHOnp+PZcNsXasUVvaEH9HtVojWQPfWMHMC+u7O54k1EEODdxiD3EcN3u9UPk3tgrxQv 554Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=4MPqPgrtQBcaESP0NBhtoUzmOKP7kBTWqRgXgpq0mWM=; b=mVE0u6s/gYlQikiuoGQb4UCiDZDDiZdjQo/9qfWVYMVlwZqh65YbIcbYueW8zP1G+e 7nDqmebfttFkZZAk2C0V6Wd8j0/dqO691pDNbVG6Pt+l9T/bQmcZWIOHxG/U66xrG1/t xR86zkcTU7CbhoFaEG/VrfaWMFTRohqPy+rGCKxZpvt2K3RhrCsEjecttjrzT5l+seti f1nCcQlxddIj/IvmUgC+mbgwubEE9uKEaxdt3GrYtB7PQRudPKo9WQ/yfFjdmbXSKwC3 8lpAc2H041eO/RQmIBXlAWKQr4H4vUMcxrDNQGptM+9bY8S98mBh/4sOZaaAPJymkfbZ IYBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531nr0BsSD7PcZY0pj/POTvSydRGOt/nxXdi0XNE3V4JOpA7foyT h74Rjdh3Zw3jQdOhNGv3KVstlDoOjwJXKA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzmjKfWVNYp1dOUu4owou/09Mw6Nv5aQ4OORVLu57coKEioMzEvnOVoWmY/0nhUR2/CrYAgLg== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:442d:: with SMTP id e13mr24581945qvt.81.1596989014093; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2601:18b:300:36ee:d9e4:f1a8:7046:ed49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t69sm11547765qka.73.2020.08.09.09.03.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:03:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> References: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , 6man In-Reply-To: To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A349) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:03:37 -0000 Do we have data that indicates that this would be an improvement? =20 > On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:47, Philip Homburg wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the >> lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, >> and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a >> distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be reached >> directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid >> broadcast lookups. >=20 > Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send traffic to > its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache. >=20 > It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from clearing t= he > L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no write=20= > a draft that describes the use of such a bit. >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Aug 9 11:57:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134C53A0CD9; 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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:56:48 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Ted Lemon CC: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1aaeJpnUJSV20aes48tEhFRoKkr72qAgABfnoCAA6sFCIAABIcAgAAwacc= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:56:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> References: , <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: u-1.phicoh.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;u-1.phicoh.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb15:25e:cc00:5c25:bcd6:aafa:54a2] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a3845566-994a-4895-7876-08d83c95f81b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3741: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:58:34 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Philip Homburg CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1aaeJpnUJSV20aes48tEhFRoKkr72qAgABfnoCAA6sFCIAANW6u Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:58:33 +0000 Message-ID: <5AE47FCC-E863-4872-9EA2-FE49A1C56C0B@cisco.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb15:25e:cc00:5c25:bcd6:aafa:54a2] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 39db45fd-f400-4dbf-42b7-08d83c96371c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3741: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:1072:f6de:c5f8:6a90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5sm19145263wmb.12.2020.08.09.12.13.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2020 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_84E74B78-3484-44A4-8D8A-2DA84F5EDD36"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:13:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Ted Lemon , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List , Philip Homburg To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 19:13:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_84E74B78-3484-44A4-8D8A-2DA84F5EDD36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Pascal, > On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: >=20 > We have some Ted; >=20 > In large meetings we measured way above 100 ND multicast messages per = second on the wire, for 90 minutes in a row. What does =E2=80=9Cway above 100=E2=80=9D mean? 101, 1000, 10000, ? 100 per second doesn=E2=80=99t seem excessive to me. What percentage of = overall messages was that? How many nodes on the link? Bob >=20 > This was on the wire because we use proprietary tech to dampen the = wireless side, things like ND proxy but based on snooping for the lack = of a better information. >=20 > I asked for the figures at the last 2 in person IETF meetings but = never got them. First time I asked too late, there needs to be due = process to guarantee anonymity. Not sure if they were captured in = Singapore and if so where they are. >=20 > Take care, >=20 > Pascal >=20 >> Le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 18:04, Ted Lemon a = =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFDo we have data that indicates that this would be an = improvement? >>=20 >>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:47, Philip Homburg = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>=20 >>>> So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the >>>> lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, >>>> and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a >>>> distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be = reached >>>> directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid >>>> broadcast lookups. >>>=20 >>> Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send = traffic to >>> its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache. >>>=20 >>> It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from = clearing the >>> L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no = write >>> a draft that describes the use of such a bit. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail=_84E74B78-3484-44A4-8D8A-2DA84F5EDD36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl8wSsgACgkQrut0EXfn u6jmRQf/X0ffFA1JSR+cgSgOUqUysH6uN3WjH6jkXXcTfQ2Vz2+BUa9v8/QcLwDn 9+AQTiZQNaUYAfsHgoQqrkk77Ncc84Cukv8EaDzLorBGd5HgGkW5X0c+N+6EHy67 LpXstDgXY3vYMGnZQ3vHZhGeb49zE7NY7AXOT8nlezr27yYzckl9lRC4QTQszWdw GPdpL+VvJ8vG18KGEBo9JUVBXJKssYOcQ/1Jou92rBXdFXhmfzeHc7r6AKP8UUFz kDleBNuQ9AQZ8TV3p4zcmqxPgTWEBYtoiSiLuXUCgRvtWrTXvk7tD711GDHDRiBF IQNiZoePqD5wP114KtaMJ8BpEFL8qQ== =VM8n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_84E74B78-3484-44A4-8D8A-2DA84F5EDD36-- From nobody Sun Aug 9 13:02:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F763A0DCD; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ttR4K-GD2UT1; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 975DF3A0DBD; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2870F389D6; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 8bvyobAmlfZx; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E563389D5; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE6F7D; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: v6ops list , 6man In-Reply-To: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <15197.1596499036@localhost> <63afd5c67e7c4520b8b7ebabec69cab7@huawei.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] distributed vs centralized approaches to ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 20:02:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > Yes, I have made comment below that if Address Allocation would be > changed to Centralized, then it is probably not SLAAC anymore. Then it > is better to adopt DHCPv6. SLAAC has the features that it is seems completely stateless for the routers. One can as many add routers to the network as desired to deal with whatever resilience issues one has. Many IPv4 experienced people are startled to realize that one does not need VRRP or anything to have redundant routers in IPv6. Full stateful DHCPv6, can also be made resilient through redundancy, but it seems significantly less popular, and it isn't particularly more secure when it comes to ND, just to controlling address allocation. There are things in between, as Pascal keep repeating: RFC8505 provides for statefulness ND. It's not mutually exclusive with SLAAC, as it does not deal with assignment, just defense (DAD). > I have read your https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router > Proxy is not universal solution and should not be mainstream. It is > complicated: IP subnet is split for many broadcast domains, proxy > stitch it back. But, the database which is the proxy is present in almost every single ethernet system today. It's just that it exists at the layer-2 in the form of MAC address forwarding tables. We don't get to see them, don't get to securely update them, and they are impossible to debug. These are what I call layer-2 games. We need to stop playing them, and architecture our layer-3 around the real physical topology. We need to do this for security, latency and efficiency reasons. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8wVlYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUxlgf9E49iV95JnHApizf314/zDeAzKMEmyhu3E1Ag3Gn75ZkhdY2c9PrXiaBS fJloEwBZuwcGx4mfs7G5CDtTbzb1WjSXjBw+4oZYM9l9uOMhj385WDM7YzJdl0pa a2HTnTICFUHpYfZjh2+1La6GZZHvD68rapMpxtxNXMjpwq15rkqFspB3gutlWks7 14Zl8q/0nNOP2FA9vjjmrtM5khxsMrcidJmK5iPLipLBXFSKtviM+NDv49zRPzYw mrS5CzcayXW1gjrmAou8nx+fESx1GegrjL2TEu//hmFqkSeGBs0MMqlqQpUUFNqp KmmBBFKg+plXGCY8RVyB3DZ3zmypqA== =sfPH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 9 13:08:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7843A0D45; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axAP-rkbYPQ8; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBBEE3A0143; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 079K8VW9061724 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 9 Aug 2020 21:08:32 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8] claimed to be crumpet.local To: Michael Richardson Cc: v6ops list , 6man References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <3C1ECB6F-E667-4200-964F-AB233A0A56E9@cisco.com> <15197.1596499036@localhost> <63afd5c67e7c4520b8b7ebabec69cab7@huawei.com> <10665.1597003350@localhost> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 21:08:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.25 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10665.1597003350@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] distributed vs centralized approaches to ND security X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 20:08:37 -0000 Michael Richardson wrote on 09/08/2020 21:02: > SLAAC has the features that it is seems completely stateless for the routers. > One can as many add routers to the network as desired to deal with whatever > resilience issues one has. Many IPv4 experienced people are startled to > realize that one does not need VRRP or anything to have redundant routers in > IPv6. with respect, ND/RA has awful failover characteristics if a router disappears. NHRPs like VRRP do a much better job. 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a9257313-0890-4f98-2b49-08d83caa8329 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Aug 2020 21:23:51.4196 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: rhliAdJDn5J4TtFZbLXLqsiMfD1E6kXPKlffsSnkwxO6aHPa4JwWOMHjPeQCCcOjGp2njf5kS7xEIqVakufFAw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4158 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 21:24:01 -0000 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bGluZyBsaXN0DQo+PiBpcHY2QGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBBZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBSZXF1ZXN0czog aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHY2DQo+PiAtLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LQ0KPiANCg== From nobody Sun Aug 9 14:43:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF93A0DEF; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:43:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.998, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIoDPBJawDc2; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE45B3A0DEA; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id u63so7261054oie.5; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 14:43:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mktF93bxJqEvFKTuesLsV6+PZG9EO5S4qNzqAcptMM4=; b=AQPvSvDQmFfJyo3j0YTK3ftNjMfmuk4W7Vk5pfyTc99srGlTqHGrGKXsd0EaPqRrTn SjELtfCWgqpFVk6fQcNJYUAOXD1WNmrItlh2Z1yhzS5NnqaLjx0NHLChxHVT1SSyxNaV 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ABdhPJyi7c8UkWHdF1+fRTua2o3fklLgtuUGB/TpkoMQwqUzLPA6T0Bp/I9dtjnk6AalpBYEGzTtg5R0zsv6N/DO2MU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b6c4:: with SMTP id g187mr18867155oif.164.1597009408938; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 14:43:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:43:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: v6ops list , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , 6man Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000085d6d605ac78bad3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 21:43:32 -0000 --00000000000085d6d605ac78bad3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 01:47 Philip Homburg, wrote: > > So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the > > lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, > > and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a > > distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be reached > > directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid > > broadcast lookups. > I'm pretty sure IPv6 can support that already. RFC5942, IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationship between Links and Subnet Prefixes says hosts are to consider destinations, with exception to link-local destinations, off-link by default. Off-link by default can be overridden for individual asdresses via redirects, or for a contiguous range of addesses, i.e. a prefix, via an RA PIO with L=1 (the A bit value being irrelevant to this). If you want everything hair pinned through the router all of the time you disable it sending redirects. As I mentioned, the exception is link-locals, which RFC5942 says are always on link. Here is my idea on how to change that - nothing that fancy, create LL prefix POIs with L=0, that overrides host default of LL prefix being on-link. ("Off Link" should really be in quotes in the draft title. "On-Link" is probably a bit too broad a term, something like "directly link reachable", meaning to ND for it rather than go via the default router, might have been a bit more descriptive.) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-link-locals-off-link-00 Regards, Mark. > Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send traffic to > its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache. > It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from clearing > the > L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no write > a draft that describes the use of such a bit. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000085d6d605ac78bad3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 01:47 Philip Homburg, <pch-v6ops-9@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:=
> So what I'm after is the = host behavior of "not onlink" for the
> lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, > and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a
> distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be reac= hed
> directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid=
> broadcast lookups.

<= /div>
I'm pretty sure IPv6 can support that already.

RFC5942,=C2=A0=C2=A0IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationsh= ip between Links and Subnet Prefixes=C2=A0says hosts are to consider= destinations, with exception to link-local destinations, off-link by defau= lt. Off-link by default can be overridden for individual asdresses via redi= rects, or for a contiguous range of addesses, i.e. a prefix, via an RA PIO = with L=3D1 (the A bit value being irrelevant to this). If you want everythi= ng hair pinned through the router all of the time you disable it sending re= directs.

As I mentio= ned, the exception is link-locals, which RFC5942 says are always on link. H= ere is my idea on how to change that - nothing that fancy, create LL prefix= POIs with L=3D0, that overrides host default of LL prefix being on-link.

("Off Link" sho= uld really be in quotes in the draft title. "On-Link" is probably= a bit too broad a term, something like "directly link reachable"= , meaning to ND for it rather than go via the default router, might have be= en a bit more descriptive.)

Regards,
Mark.



Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send traffic to its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache.

It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from clearing th= e
L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no write a draft that describes the use of such a bit.
<= div dir=3D"auto">




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--00000000000085d6d605ac78bad3-- From nobody Sun Aug 9 16:41:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EE93A0F6C; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:41:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1k-5vy39NTvd; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7FFE3A0F56; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id m7so6855579qki.12; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:41:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=S+6TymZ+42EUoF45KaxBqQxSNBKtrjslpAJk4ZTm194=; b=qD3aYVPucmoT3YViAC0iNUZ8cM44omO9iVN+gvhyA6Jf2Alx1tCB4odxNvAl/3AFDh XaUos+N1B1rtrB+5RlCj/m6pbiU456a2hLIzlj2Nf/Q560RRStKwL/8SH7Xv4ca4FIJ+ iU7g5V5Jb5U6tG/cBfdc6GZHen5/fXbBrsy7QA1gJbfl25fOwslVIRigNp6AYggRWE3f AH2qY3NE8qNFM/G9XtbfLLbrcK2KVQ3ilRgaKDXvAPCmCYNKZT37pc24/b4/D1gV0DOD SseDJQbmyDRIQHrSetLitLeBa5N1ZLOB5vbZPeFwhLIyeU7HAFseNZf/aG51j0pxpQKk PZMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=S+6TymZ+42EUoF45KaxBqQxSNBKtrjslpAJk4ZTm194=; b=Hmd/OzOwwmOrsxP5QJYAPbgVYkyRUQc6KwHoF0Atx4kwPtyWPJO628/DzVejoepmMx rKr22nLK9/nMCYMUhK5r4pLRLXx22ymiw5nzk02rb/yHVPeAcfMlZANE/5Cl4ZWIkFEk rJzsI5G2i1dd3wRWWa+OAUzXTO8bN2qv6jnKtNn0r+5jP5T0hMYj/iymfJF6bRa6nWtA aS2R0ZkWSclYyp2mA7Wpo7uW8HrPQhhIizR/OzATzLXMb1QF0gkKsjQpeq9346MwHVLk xx40LpvJXHBlUxfUosiGeqEeQAV0xNWkx1YIaWOA3qCz6HbyKCwCnW2szEzndfts4IXp tAUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339fL4MazyhMpw8xrpeKnj07i80CaLgLM/9SepnmfWyw3h7gI6x RgoT/JgcMbWe3bljAIm7gzr2LAkNk46Tcb9pNQg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDvJzHA1DXsTusGyMbEPNTqMdYom1Go5AAVjUaGh6yeKDcXIwWSA4ZPzNyK+wWghU97elvQaxfjPZatqiFsbs= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9c4b:: with SMTP id f72mr24532926qke.332.1597016508926; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:41:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:41:37 +1000 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , 6man , IPv6 Operations , Jen Linkova Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 23:41:51 -0000 On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 7:40 PM Mark Smith wrote: >> > Maybe the host should renew the NCE in the router periodically ? >> I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): >> "A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses >> periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." >> >> On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for >> addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. > Won't NUD probes keep those entries current in the routers' cache, even though hosts may not be actively using them? No, why would it? By the definition, for STALE entries no attempts are made to verify the neighbor reachability. So if the node has not been receiving traffic for that address, the STALE entry would stay there until the router cleans it up. So if we recommend sending periodic unsolicited NAs it might re-populate the router cache with unused addresses which have been cleaned up. As sending periodic NAs would make sense for the very specific scenario - the was sleeping, has woken up and is going to send some traffic it might be a bit tricky to give guidance on that. In all other cases I do not see much benefits... Strictly speaking nothing described in this draft is prohibited in RFC4861 anyway. So hosts can send unsolicited NAs anyway ;) > I've thought that something like GRAND + NUD is starting to approach an address registration protocol, or at least, makes the routers' cache the "active addresses on a link" database. I'd say 'most active addresses' as we can not guarantee that unsolicited NAs reach routers. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sun Aug 9 16:42:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A983A0C8B; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q0dX9Sm-xn0n; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAE5A3A0C8F; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id a15so6508397wrh.10; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:42:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=52DhmgHq41BxJJuyeRib0sr4N64oL9GbqmdtsChO/V4=; b=FUlFUMOVgytlmarkp48hYhi7EtFkz9BtDbZnHOpOxN0rNqiS8fJTiR2yUGvgGVPorO LpNhxpXb4p2mhpvTFZ7wdUCmh7BnRYmJ2pIED98w6WqddgW6I/t/prl+3n9flZlPSTTb 5LTIULQhCriLAGU3dfV+JLsVAlLEIfOuLwqpP79jkLSc17n4BSFjVfZiKzSr8AvPebl9 l26u6vvrZMT2NtIF+BkeEFyY3u/kPx9t8DNtBg0mKXeK/4aay6i0Hrrz/dS86eK60C7a Hwj63UUaiplHkvZ0sKSs9Rv8uLyB5jn2KwJCK8zqWVIJqprwDy4a6QZ2FZkUfnY5+UB4 M2ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=52DhmgHq41BxJJuyeRib0sr4N64oL9GbqmdtsChO/V4=; b=nOWic4pBsNyHn8dqiR5Ki377KYMFuPmacWjSNFlwH8fUZftcvso9QAm1ppHgYbDNv5 Si2KoLNjgBIDy7SB2xw6kPsh+ziGpM7U5nOoPTZbhjeR7UGs/c4GkArtcNkqusY2fO31 CAmZkFAjWphiGZHYZdvcEiWInz2dCW6V+aL0Z0R2EH0MQLgnYH3UUy7k3SOMMcR9KBST ThMHv/LgxGAIx5et6JTr4a4S3XLDCyNwWF86C13NK1aF/lUkLvHKAhny03B8zrh4bhwP 84I6fFQonL+2WAXeu6fxUhhN86FhfpmwYry14MZZrrDb3GIXoaDXlX5wGe7HYTIl9gyK 6kFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53383dx78zAOzWg1edJ+wTvtaevFmnI+2S4OTumZ1G7iKgxbQ/14 UhKUJngWoLEALkqYE873dB4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPOiSJkr1/50ZBpbZxmaEnO80+Q8IAVg97FFPTAfFDn4G42TtPHwWybc+aAVEPwaP17FT1zQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ed0f:: with SMTP id a15mr22289967wro.341.1597016545155; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:1072:f6de:c5f8:6a90? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:1072:f6de:c5f8:6a90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm17236277wru.81.2020.08.09.16.42.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:42:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EA594DD6-FD3F-4FC0-9A9E-575A655EB4B8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:42:18 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Ted Lemon , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List , Philip Homburg To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 23:42:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EA594DD6-FD3F-4FC0-9A9E-575A655EB4B8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Aug 9, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: >=20 > By memory this was around 300/s Bob. Do you have a reference? Also, answers to my other questions? >=20 > This might look innocuous on a wire but on Wireless the broadcast is = expensive, because it is sent at the lowest speed in all directions. >=20 > This clogs the medium, maybe 5 to 10% of it; for no value at all but = to offer the stick to beat us; well would have If we had let all that = over the wire. >=20 > It is expensive too when a fabric spans multiple remote sites. >=20 I thought we learned long ago to not create large distributed = broadcast/multicast domains. Bob > Dismissing the problem, looking elsewhere is just not the way to go. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Pascal >=20 >> Le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 21:13, Bob Hinden a = =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFPascal, >>=20 >>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: >>>=20 >>> We have some Ted; >>>=20 >>> In large meetings we measured way above 100 ND multicast messages = per second on the wire, for 90 minutes in a row. >>=20 >> What does =E2=80=9Cway above 100=E2=80=9D mean? 101, 1000, 10000, ? >>=20 >> 100 per second doesn=E2=80=99t seem excessive to me. What percentage = of overall messages was that? How many nodes on the link? >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> This was on the wire because we use proprietary tech to dampen the = wireless side, things like ND proxy but based on snooping for the lack = of a better information. >>>=20 >>> I asked for the figures at the last 2 in person IETF meetings but = never got them. First time I asked too late, there needs to be due = process to guarantee anonymity. Not sure if they were captured in = Singapore and if so where they are. >>>=20 >>> Take care, >>>=20 >>> Pascal >>>=20 >>>>> Le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 18:04, Ted Lemon a = =C3=A9crit : >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFDo we have data that indicates that this would be an = improvement? >>>>=20 >>>>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:47, Philip Homburg = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the >>>>>> lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect = phase, >>>>>> and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a >>>>>> distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be = reached >>>>>> directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid >>>>>> broadcast lookups. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send = traffic to >>>>> its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC = cache. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from = clearing the >>>>> L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no = write >>>>> a draft that describes the use of such a bit. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_EA594DD6-FD3F-4FC0-9A9E-575A655EB4B8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl8widoACgkQrut0EXfn u6gZOgf/dCM2aWhG46W5sSL1+0sTQ7W93pcNeId6lJu0Kh/NHZdIS5t4Xkxlfbk/ YDS4sdccnFukMZOrJufT2A7O4MaViPdCDnS/lVHajdO/11vgU+BOSZLfExoDNUEk IfBUNofjaJ1m2mobQumDW0Nc2FIG1HP3pdCqFtUvM4RCmy6vdE3ktvl0VFMpj25z mdSH1Oni8yugpYlDu6b2Vf48nHYugfgpJ8An1eKALqT75HYc1P5WzbNqCtpgiJQw oc4s7/rZif0APgwH/EPZk+0tAsk4JpDHUq5va6GQ/14vW7pWXG6LdcZwUz0cp6lH 0YYDbfDifR6wILkM3ukpLc1cs1EVCw== =C26Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EA594DD6-FD3F-4FC0-9A9E-575A655EB4B8-- From nobody Mon Aug 10 00:59:41 2020 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lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 071702C79586B0262680; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:59:35 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) by lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:59:34 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:59:34 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:59:34 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Mark Smith" , Jen Linkova CC: 6man , IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1a/pXlTW2isS0uZz3jAApjDoKkrvR+AgABsmQCAAcAAgIAABj+AgAFuDICAAAMeAIAARf0AgAFe3pA= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:59:33 +0000 Message-ID: <20e805fc75314e7b9388242fbc59759e@huawei.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> , <6DD43215-8059-46F7-86A0-33722205B4F4@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6DD43215-8059-46F7-86A0-33722205B4F4@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.200.103] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_20e805fc75314e7b9388242fbc59759ehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: 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LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPj4+PiBJRVRGIElQdjYgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+Pj4gaXB2NkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4+PiBBZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBSZXF1 ZXN0czogaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHY2DQo+Pj4+IC0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+Pj4gDQo+IA0K From nobody Mon Aug 10 01:24:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A742C3A145F; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 84c8rezg9txL; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA86E3A0DDC; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id 77so7599418qkm.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8oJOtUIhRfn0zk+2KIcRnKK7jQZ7KrnmCmIgFfjMRcI=; b=myEMG0vnSXwnG0uToAkbCLGJIVfCx1I/gmVV2YbqKl6tTst530JUVovCNvwbcY/rbn 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VRnEGzbMVe32g/zQ/EsDs17IzOsXDc9RsqVwLj4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxzL5NJn6S+H3Oa0tn0/NA8UWmYav8cGd+8QMSulkhZkcoSpjHX9L+OnLHLu6xcglvxoKmHrwxYVR7BzSzjdws= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:a05:: with SMTP id i5mr23799591qka.444.1597047881834; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:24:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> <6DD43215-8059-46F7-86A0-33722205B4F4@cisco.com> <20e805fc75314e7b9388242fbc59759e@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <20e805fc75314e7b9388242fbc59759e@huawei.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:24:30 +1000 Message-ID: To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Mark Smith , Jen Linkova , IPv6 Operations , 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:24:45 -0000 On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 6:00 PM Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > I have not understood why you have concerns on this: =E2=80=9Ceven though= hosts may not be actively using them=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cold privacy add= resses that the host does not plan to use anymore=E2=80=9D. My understanding is that Mark's comment about 'even though hosts may not be actively using them' was about the assumption that the router would perform NUD for existing STALE entries so they would be refreshed. So there is no reason to periodically send NAs. > Jen did mention clearly in her quote =E2=80=9Cpreferred addresses=E2=80= =9D. I believe that it is the terminology of RFC 4862: preferred and deprec= ated addresses. Indeed. > If address is deprecated by host, then host would stop cache refreshment = (logical assumption). > Hi Jen, may be to avoid such misunderstanding in the future you could cha= nge statement to: > > "A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses periodically= to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers. > A node SHOULD refrain from unsolicited cache refreshments for address in = deprecated state" If we want to do this I'd change "SHOULD refrain from" to "MUST NOT send". Personally I'm not convinced we shall be adding this text. However the main question would be: how often does the device need to send those NAs? The frequency would actually depend on the NC garbage collector/clean up timer on the router side. It means that node can not know it. As the main use case is to help nodes waking up after a period of long inactivity (long =3D=3D long enough for the default routers to remove their addresses from their NCs), the node would need to send the unsolicited NA right after wake up and before sending any traffic. Not sure how complicated it would be from the host implementers PoV. > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (= pthubert) > Sent: 9 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 16:51 > To: Mark Smith > Cc: Jen Linkova ; 6man ; IPv6 Operations= > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups > > > > We are facing 2 issues in the field that hurt especially in distributed f= abrics with spanning L2 emulation (think eVPN and VxLAN) > > > > One is with old privacy addresses that the host does not plan to use anym= ore. If the router NUDs them to check if they still exist, we create activi= ty that gives a false sense of liveliness and renews the state indiscrimina= tely with addresses that are really in use. A better NCE management could b= e achieved if we knew the intent of the host; but the current protocol does= not expose that. > > > > The second is with silent nodes like printers. Such a node has a fixed ad= dress but very rare connectivity. The printer may live a long time without = any ND traffic and the network may forget the guy. The only way to find him= is the multicast which as you know means broadcast. > > If the host volunteers a periodic refresh of its active addresses at a pe= riod that the router can fathom then both issues can be avoided. > > > > Ideally the period would depend on the usage to the address and the type = of device. So it should also be suggested by the device. > > > > Obviously we can do better than that but that=E2=80=99s a start... > > > > Pascal > > > > Le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 11:40, Mark Smith a = =C3=A9crit : > > =EF=BB=BF > > > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 19:29 Jen Linkova, wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:38 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > Maybe the host should renew the NCE in the router periodically ? > > GRAND currently focuses on 'a new address being added to the > interface' scenario. It does not solve the case of a node starts using > an already configured address after a long period of inactivity. > > I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): > "A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses > periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." > > On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for > addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. > > > > > > Won't NUD probes keep those entries current in the routers' cache, even t= hough hosts may not be actively using them? > > > > I've thought that something like GRAND + NUD is starting to approach an a= ddress registration protocol, or at least, makes the routers' cache the "ac= tive addresses on a link" database. > > > > Regards, > > Mark. > > > > > What does the WG think? > > > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Mon Aug 10 01:39:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D4E3A0D76; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r9G98NjNj18S; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 418783A0920; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml727-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 48A88C42905801FFC886; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:39:43 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) by lhreml727-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:39:43 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:39:42 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:39:42 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Jen Linkova CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Mark Smith" , Jen Linkova , "IPv6 Operations" , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1a/pXlTW2isS0uZz3jAApjDoKkrvR+AgABsmQCAAcAAgIAABj+AgAFuDICAAAMeAIAARf0AgAFe3pD//9hiAIAANC0Q Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:39:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> <6DD43215-8059-46F7-86A0-33722205B4F4@cisco.com> <20e805fc75314e7b9388242fbc59759e@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.200.103] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 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a2luZyBncm91cCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaXB2NkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBBZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2 ZSBSZXF1ZXN0czogaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHY2DQo+ IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQoNCg0KDQotLQ0KU1ksIEpl biBMaW5rb3ZhIGFrYSBGdXJyeQ0K From nobody Mon Aug 10 02:36:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198A83A145F; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 02:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HrHOrlwVsOWU; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 02:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D47333A1464; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 02:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 07A9aTTi072366 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:36:30 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8] claimed to be crumpet.local To: Bob Hinden Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg , IPv6 List References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:36:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.25 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:36:47 -0000 Bob Hinden wrote on 10/08/2020 00:42: > I thought we learned long ago to not create large distributed broadcast/multicast domains. We did, but what's disheartening is that people persistently use this model as rationale to justify a protocol change of one form or another. Maybe we need an ID which states this explicitly: "Large broadcast domains considered harmful"? As long as we have broadcast domains, people will be tempted to make them too large and will express surprise that they don't scale well. 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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:12:49 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Nick Hilliard CC: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg , IPv6 List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1aaeJpnUJSV20aes48tEhFRoKkr72qAgABfnoCAA6sFCIAABIcAgAAwaceAAASVAIAAJIGfgAAmrwCAAKYCAIAACigZ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:12:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com>, <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb15:25e:cc00:60c9:70fb:89f8:f8f0] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 33c20315-d8b4-4fd4-9063-08d83d15efc4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3933: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; 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[24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c194sm22112846wme.8.2020.08.10.07.58.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <3D71C5A6-D7FD-45B1-B43C-5526D3A6E55C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_19ECF757-FE36-44B9-A318-05DABFCE4C8A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:58:25 -0700 In-Reply-To: <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> Cc: Bob Hinden , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg , IPv6 List To: Nick Hilliard References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:58:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_19ECF757-FE36-44B9-A318-05DABFCE4C8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nick, > On Aug 10, 2020, at 2:36 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: >=20 > Bob Hinden wrote on 10/08/2020 00:42: >> I thought we learned long ago to not create large distributed = broadcast/multicast domains. >=20 > We did, but what's disheartening is that people persistently use this = model as rationale to justify a protocol change of one form or another. >=20 > Maybe we need an ID which states this explicitly: "Large broadcast = domains considered harmful"? As long as we have broadcast domains, = people will be tempted to make them too large and will express surprise = that they don't scale well. I agree on both points. I would be willing to help write such a draft, = but think it would be better with authors who have direct operational = experience. Bob --Apple-Mail=_19ECF757-FE36-44B9-A318-05DABFCE4C8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl8xYJEACgkQrut0EXfn u6h0pwf+LroVdEyqppC3wIIMcGx/qtPTQzJuTOVpFN1zlaO8OMHvSOTcAV5Zp01r EtmfvMaKdtgzARuXM+6VIC3Tk+mVGaDgD5KyDcylB3PiLrnF3xQO61YhSMEBR3Jc JTRBcM3Wtc5hqn4Z2bdyxoGM/gbqwHEjy+Gviv3Sk7jORyVcQQ47IPW2moR6S/VU 8UmJ62/CMOOam2u8PLoe081A7lp0Sk1oJdOiBXo93Wo24Z4IWVEyJ/8eS5o8ij/c f78EjeBtKgby9oZ7Nawz1gYbHSoVKb8WYq5mUy3q0bDVj+qov1rvMLXyeqJTU83D GskPgub3u44RwvH7i3mHA5xWsd6Cyg== =Np0V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_19ECF757-FE36-44B9-A318-05DABFCE4C8A-- From nobody Mon Aug 10 09:45:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F673A0A4E; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8rNkAgckKab; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D60D03A0A4A; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3F7389DB; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id b4aLr0RuRIhV; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EF1389B1; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60508724; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:44:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Nick Hilliard cc: Bob Hinden , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , IPv6 List , "v6ops\@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg In-Reply-To: <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:45:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Nick Hilliard wrote: > Bob Hinden wrote on 10/08/2020 00:42: >> I thought we learned long ago to not create large distributed broadcast/multicast domains. > We did, but what's disheartening is that people persistently use this model > as rationale to justify a protocol change of one form or another. And, we continue to pretend that we have these large domains in our analysis of performance and security. And additionally, we are expending large amounts of L2 logic to continue to simulate them with very little increase is performance or security. > Maybe we need an ID which states this explicitly: "Large broadcast domains > considered harmful"? As long as we have broadcast domains, people will be > tempted to make them too large and will express surprise that they don't > scale well. Just remove the word "large" :-) -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl8xeYkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW/wAgAvewv9fwAaMNAyldr1C44KvV69lxBHOHzWye5+k73+XUmUnwlai2sH/0c yWhwCoTPyHwCHL1zni2FUymqoN0kFp+WT79zNDcYkDT4vVU7eNB63PEN1vbF/tM7 INC+PZAR+yrMgXlE9pqbq/WSs6+JnUEfhAdG2+G5dKX2qhvV81vakRv4NCjILtYo 8i+mtPMPi4uswKW8JTpA3046KyXXt8733Ror41MwpT8yirGHoWv5BSuj9FO1j8Bx 9wg7NgBS6hRjfHDc4TSPR6ImcNtAGMeYv2oA9V65x9CVmOJQieQSS7h9dIc/jPpJ lMBqSAfNVbwFgUnVvN6yYnFSfxObwg== =25uS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Aug 10 10:18:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421AA3A0B2C for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWNA4tb3fsPA for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B5163A0B21 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 185so10438602ljj.7 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8Yig/Jkfuw5F0cRQbVvQpdqwLCICaCNomc/1mA0TL2U=; b=MjZv2I+lUgfBg+sKg8IRqBSmJ7cmEeFQ8WnjtWQWFbNMdEQaoWiW0qVsvv4GtqEIWy 4ewMj7vdJ0p2p0YkfhciQmd2GhjC6jNhny9ltXaakUJDbIoJcE3gx/BoOPcmRMAN3Q3J SGdlfzcq3Y4s59hAMkPhNAf4cRLCF+++plMZyqGzchShV5Xxa/Un79J0rZH7gBgijCQ/ WsxdvIlrM5AmvuWvccUjdKQkzT49RBaBx2+OyXgs2K11VfLY5hHc7bKBvuYM8dG8dnkE p8paat25wd3F0FS2W8TcFiwW8S6IvasApMzC8E/2DjgKUnhgnghQ+w17ANRf+5496Ahn uzKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8Yig/Jkfuw5F0cRQbVvQpdqwLCICaCNomc/1mA0TL2U=; b=NRo4KnIHafffZSe0wVpeUnSsETZuVtFqNgjgrQ8McRGkXhGmkE43DZJb1vfsGALWr2 lKPHJus0hr4dI6Z8duy2wlfDrhS0ycw9aausK4E9+OFUiiQsIduGk3HgGcNqZUvnSJ2U oUoF27paI5G66DsjBrp/PAjCXfQ20ggH/64kTxk43RfVZthog1eOEYAwLQG3Z9hUFSEu HwBpeYsBxXwAH2+TyJZyqaJ7PbpaV3IGaq1dI1My4+/3K7sPq///EuLhHk3KMXQEd5K0 Z96wEMPCIIzKZ6xUUqRcgHBmPsLx2geJaoiOdkVmmzWW4qUbYGRoVPP3xBtJ3TkciGvW Kiew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hA7SghWlfXwngH5HhuX424zVGW/fH9/PmHf97xjUkv6GkYbWW w+eMuT7eq/rIQGFncVWuJy6nTmkfI1rTd6UbMkdeJQ531H3lHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyULgWbx2bcLIm7kP4K711SSelPX79VEG0eq19WPln7ZpwBf6aUoZmSgp2HE3tkN9UPJjbifQ4rM4Pj19myLr8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a28d:: with SMTP id k13mr1043065lja.11.1597079898919; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:17:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:18:23 -0000 Hi there authors! Thank you for this document - it is clear, useful, and addresses a real issue... Unfortunately there were discussions at the plenary (and then further discussions in the IESG) on polishing the readability, etc of documents before sending them for IETF LC / balloting, and so I've been extra "picky" on typos, grammar, etc. I also ran it though some automated grammer checking tools, so apologies for all the nits. Addressing these should make the document easier to read, and so result in better / faster review.... If I'd been a bit cleverer, I would have just asked for the source document so that there is less copying and pasting... Thanks again for the document, and apologies again for all of the nits... Questions / comments: 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN side." I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but does: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN side." work? 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / questions. Abstract: O: This document documents this problem, and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. P: This document documents this issue and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. Intro: O: However, there are a number of scenarios that may lead to P: However, there several scenarios that may lead to O: ... nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long period of time, thus... P: ... nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long time, thus... O: Hosts will normally configure addresses for the new prefix, P: Hosts will typically configure addresses for the new prefix, O: In particular there has been evidence that some 802.1x P: In particular, there has been evidence that some 802.1x O: Automated device config management system performs periodical config push to network devices... P: Automated device config management system perform periodic config pushes to network devices... O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not deprecated. P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not be deprecated. C: Missing "be" O: Lacking any explicit signaling to "deprecate" the previously-advertised prefixes P: Lacking any explicit signaling to deprecate the previously-advertised prefixes C: Unclear why deprecate is in quotes. O: hosts may continue to employ the previously-configured addresses which P: hosts may continue to employ the previously-configured addresses, which O: -- whether because of egress-filtering by the CPE or ISP, or because responses to such packets be discarded or routed elsewhere. P: -- whether because of egress-filtering by the CPE or ISP, or because responses to such packets are discarded or routed elsewhere. C: or "packets being discarded or routed elsewhere." O: ... retained and also actively employed for new communications instances for unacceptably long period of time.. P: ... retained and also actively employed for new communications instances for an unacceptably long period of time ... O: However, for robustness reasons it is also paramount P: However, for robustness reasons, it is paramount O: flash-renumbering events occur and the network is unable to explicitly notify hosts about such condition. P: flash-renumbering events occur and the network is unable to explicitly notify hosts about such conditions. C: plural. O: Section 2 analysis this problem in more detail. P: Section 2 analyzes this problem in more detail. O: Section 4 describes possible future work to better mitigate the aforementioned problem P: Section 4 describes possible future work to mitigate the aforementioned problem Section 2: O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default parameters" or just drop it? O: Each of the following sections analyze each of them in detail. P: The following sections analyze each of them in detail. C: "The authors of this document understand that, for a number of reasons (such as the ones stated above), IPv6 deployments may employ dynamic prefixes " - as it is now a WG / IETF document, I think that you should remove the "The authors" bit (unless you *really* want to keep it) Section 2.2: O: One common example for the use of timers is when implementing reliability mechanisms where a packet is transmitted, and unless a response is received, a retransmission timer will go off to trigger retransmission of the original packet. P: One use of timers is when implementing mechanisms where a packet is transmitted, and, unless a response is received, a timer will fire to trigger retransmission of the original packet. O: For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers is that in problematic scenarios, they will go off, and trigger some recovery action. P: For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers in this way is that, in problematic scenarios, they trigger some recovery action. O: However, under problematic circumstances such as where the corresponding network P: However, under problematic circumstances, such as where the corresponding network O: The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid the use of a stale prefix to be employed for new communications. P: The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid using a stale prefix for new communications or The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid the use of a stale prefix for new communications. Section 2.4: O: Whenever prefix information has changed, a SLAAC router should not only advertise the new information, but should also advertise the stale information with appropriate lifetime values (both "Preferred Lifetime" and "Valid Lifetime" set to 0), such that there is explicit signaling to SLAAC hosts to remove the stale information (including configured addresses and routes). P: Whenever prefix information has changed, a SLAAC router should not only advertise the new information, but should also advertise the stale information with appropriate lifetime values (both "Preferred Lifetime" and "Valid Lifetime" set to 0), in order to provide explicit signaling to SLAAC hosts to remove the stale information (including configured addresses and routes). C: Even better would be to split this into separate sentences... Thank you again! W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Mon Aug 10 10:18:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0DAD13A0B4F; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD7A3A0B21 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zxiGFcuIdBam for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91CE83A0B2F for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id h19so10421320ljg.13 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8Yig/Jkfuw5F0cRQbVvQpdqwLCICaCNomc/1mA0TL2U=; b=MjZv2I+lUgfBg+sKg8IRqBSmJ7cmEeFQ8WnjtWQWFbNMdEQaoWiW0qVsvv4GtqEIWy 4ewMj7vdJ0p2p0YkfhciQmd2GhjC6jNhny9ltXaakUJDbIoJcE3gx/BoOPcmRMAN3Q3J SGdlfzcq3Y4s59hAMkPhNAf4cRLCF+++plMZyqGzchShV5Xxa/Un79J0rZH7gBgijCQ/ WsxdvIlrM5AmvuWvccUjdKQkzT49RBaBx2+OyXgs2K11VfLY5hHc7bKBvuYM8dG8dnkE p8paat25wd3F0FS2W8TcFiwW8S6IvasApMzC8E/2DjgKUnhgnghQ+w17ANRf+5496Ahn uzKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8Yig/Jkfuw5F0cRQbVvQpdqwLCICaCNomc/1mA0TL2U=; b=EWeP2I/cCCQx1OXVSOnyrAKKTYUd1vxyKeOZ5lIPh2SFAp2NyrsG1tBPRbEoLJUc4H XaJLIKIfJbAjjisF7RzIJm+W51SCRM4HnRscjbYIUlfNbQEIzRAkb0BoYTfYEI4FY0X4 bXlFQZYaYzty2J/uIa1ouVmh6PxPAbQhAWZdS69nkHek2PhPMCeP6Sufnrv4XJTvUW2G cX4fp0uvQSdEmGfL9fkObmYH4oyDRpz+WkAVYEvFAC1bJqESjsbg9DwtL7DjXz73LqW9 DRoLmdMu+mAxW48a8thk/A7evczQcMf/j+mPSumN8Z2uV+m8oakQKYbr9CQnNVV7icel R6aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ENy7sJHXv0l2q/66bYuZr6tnv/gvzLTTZhH7KJ91xZXFKHQbs shcTcNKVTz1hOFz2sUks6qv89Bmnx0PIzjO7ZkQeMOj8ju0p/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyULgWbx2bcLIm7kP4K711SSelPX79VEG0eq19WPln7ZpwBf6aUoZmSgp2HE3tkN9UPJjbifQ4rM4Pj19myLr8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a28d:: with SMTP id k13mr1043065lja.11.1597079898919; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:17:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@go6.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, rbonica@juniper.net, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, rwilton@cisco.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200810171825.0DAD13A0B4F@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:18:25 -0000 Hi there authors! Thank you for this document - it is clear, useful, and addresses a real issue... Unfortunately there were discussions at the plenary (and then further discussions in the IESG) on polishing the readability, etc of documents before sending them for IETF LC / balloting, and so I've been extra "picky" on typos, grammar, etc. I also ran it though some automated grammer checking tools, so apologies for all the nits. Addressing these should make the document easier to read, and so result in better / faster review.... If I'd been a bit cleverer, I would have just asked for the source document so that there is less copying and pasting... Thanks again for the document, and apologies again for all of the nits... Questions / comments: 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN side." I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but does: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN side." work? 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / questions. Abstract: O: This document documents this problem, and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. P: This document documents this issue and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. Intro: O: However, there are a number of scenarios that may lead to P: However, there several scenarios that may lead to O: ... nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long period of time, thus... P: ... nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long time, thus... O: Hosts will normally configure addresses for the new prefix, P: Hosts will typically configure addresses for the new prefix, O: In particular there has been evidence that some 802.1x P: In particular, there has been evidence that some 802.1x O: Automated device config management system performs periodical config push to network devices... P: Automated device config management system perform periodic config pushes to network devices... O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not deprecated. P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not be deprecated. C: Missing "be" O: Lacking any explicit signaling to "deprecate" the previously-advertised prefixes P: Lacking any explicit signaling to deprecate the previously-advertised prefixes C: Unclear why deprecate is in quotes. O: hosts may continue to employ the previously-configured addresses which P: hosts may continue to employ the previously-configured addresses, which O: -- whether because of egress-filtering by the CPE or ISP, or because responses to such packets be discarded or routed elsewhere. P: -- whether because of egress-filtering by the CPE or ISP, or because responses to such packets are discarded or routed elsewhere. C: or "packets being discarded or routed elsewhere." O: ... retained and also actively employed for new communications instances for unacceptably long period of time.. P: ... retained and also actively employed for new communications instances for an unacceptably long period of time ... O: However, for robustness reasons it is also paramount P: However, for robustness reasons, it is paramount O: flash-renumbering events occur and the network is unable to explicitly notify hosts about such condition. P: flash-renumbering events occur and the network is unable to explicitly notify hosts about such conditions. C: plural. O: Section 2 analysis this problem in more detail. P: Section 2 analyzes this problem in more detail. O: Section 4 describes possible future work to better mitigate the aforementioned problem P: Section 4 describes possible future work to mitigate the aforementioned problem Section 2: O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default parameters" or just drop it? O: Each of the following sections analyze each of them in detail. P: The following sections analyze each of them in detail. C: "The authors of this document understand that, for a number of reasons (such as the ones stated above), IPv6 deployments may employ dynamic prefixes " - as it is now a WG / IETF document, I think that you should remove the "The authors" bit (unless you *really* want to keep it) Section 2.2: O: One common example for the use of timers is when implementing reliability mechanisms where a packet is transmitted, and unless a response is received, a retransmission timer will go off to trigger retransmission of the original packet. P: One use of timers is when implementing mechanisms where a packet is transmitted, and, unless a response is received, a timer will fire to trigger retransmission of the original packet. O: For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers is that in problematic scenarios, they will go off, and trigger some recovery action. P: For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers in this way is that, in problematic scenarios, they trigger some recovery action. O: However, under problematic circumstances such as where the corresponding network P: However, under problematic circumstances, such as where the corresponding network O: The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid the use of a stale prefix to be employed for new communications. P: The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid using a stale prefix for new communications or The Preferred Lifetime of an address can be reduced to any value to avoid the use of a stale prefix for new communications. Section 2.4: O: Whenever prefix information has changed, a SLAAC router should not only advertise the new information, but should also advertise the stale information with appropriate lifetime values (both "Preferred Lifetime" and "Valid Lifetime" set to 0), such that there is explicit signaling to SLAAC hosts to remove the stale information (including configured addresses and routes). P: Whenever prefix information has changed, a SLAAC router should not only advertise the new information, but should also advertise the stale information with appropriate lifetime values (both "Preferred Lifetime" and "Valid Lifetime" set to 0), in order to provide explicit signaling to SLAAC hosts to remove the stale information (including configured addresses and routes). C: Even better would be to split this into separate sentences... Thank you again! W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Tue Aug 11 01:28:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2F63A0E71; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s1kn_mCLZzjF; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B70EE3A0D78; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305) (Smail #157) id m1k5Pdd-0000KfC; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:28:05 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: Jen Linkova Cc: 6man From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 9 Aug 2020 19:28:51 +1000 ." Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:28:05 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:28:13 -0000 In your letter dated Sun, 9 Aug 2020 19:28:51 +1000 you wrote: >I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): >"A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses >periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." > >On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for >addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. > >What does the WG think? A few thoughts: 1) It has to specified how often the host has to refresh entries 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility to deal with 1) and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interval. Then we can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOULD or MUST 3) What happens if there are more entries then fit in the router's NC? 4) It has been argued against DHCPv6 IA_NA that hosts may need more addresses than can be handled by the DHCP server. There is an RFC that says something to that effect. If so, then we can expect more address than can be handled by the router NC as well. I think we need to be consistent here. Or is this only for some special networks where host have only few addresses? can also expect hoss 5) Hosts have to inform all routers, so this would require hosts to track all routers and just a few of them 6) It seems to me that this would something for a new draft From nobody Tue Aug 11 04:16:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204993A0FB1 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:16:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzX_4pt-LP5i for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C844F3A0FAF for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id g26so11268093qka.3 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4TJA6gLxLQI6xCLwMQg0mwHVSLMKWK4fsSpEQ9sWtmU=; b=Pk/eJ076vkvx6lT5g6q/q6SWE63dxdouHshCF5R0KpmlcCMTv2vcbQEBa8vRMyudsK kFNskcNkgQX96N7oWtfYzAXF1gDXjBz98cWjH0k8OXHyVZftEpSx11u838KtT4wNaKlg 6oZNr+HxphOxiiyKI4n4F6hLWxg8HIWNC+jHL8sVv/NVbWSQRyKguIbpOw0bwNWEe5MO +UljtLcjsUpRwOzClb9sdlwz3w7Iei4LHHmINzBwZ6yQ8KQNiFhQ1H/5Ra+uoufdCwW2 sVHjtJkf8uoQqXb1bENxJi/2WbE3hgrZ/1hRJ0pkzv4tti9cRXvD4PV7JF8FXVnpsDuB gdwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4TJA6gLxLQI6xCLwMQg0mwHVSLMKWK4fsSpEQ9sWtmU=; b=OJRRRIy3tJROmqtg5j5fpOAtwWNtEfr1ZiCjcFY+XNLWG+vL6zBkDLpFe81+xQdhzm xlT8N/782CfOuNBEDcOaP5+QAS3Og4RZo3v9oQodbpS8B1YRRW7s3/AjQFoGxXMbrdvx d0SKi1Kl/1zxCyUgSQLW9ITwz/qu8bps8Y60+ZDLAY3sbdbnrkOpP3Nzs0El1+Jg5+Yk /mahUtx+ats0EemD7K6LRmq3z2DKKtmE3s8uetp2yZikH1OyL0nwRyKkPMqWrYpVeLyJ 3uiTOOka6Nor3cylyjcL1Yo4triNrtqQUH7W/NBi+AZkmHLk51rG6XKqpZ6McJNBsRfA 7LfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533x55EWYt/r0vyZNgE8FyjVcwGxueJI6vPe2Kj/WG4r2/l5u9ms PnHI+zeQoJf8FX0nwn+qzmJBFnNKuCDj6Nf7mrA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+owpfTfx+F/fAcy3j2RdvVoJkRhATOS9RPreiF9F9B8gnXGgNa09yRbgyJUCWWEyu8cvNjqMu9JkLpxIwMjA= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9c4b:: with SMTP id f72mr632794qke.332.1597144562506; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:16:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159594573523.13152.3914768057480139064@ietfa.amsl.com> <7975506A-9D32-490B-96C6-E4A1CF7EBFE1@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:15:50 +1000 Message-ID: To: Erik Nygren , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:16:06 -0000 Sorry, I've missed -03 being posted. Jordi, thanks for improving the document! First of all, I agree with all comments Erik made (see my AUD0.02 inline ;) On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:41 AM Erik Nygren wrote: > This version improves, but still seems to be missing some important items= . > I'm also still worried that it may not be safe enough and may still cause > more problems than it solves, especially if implementations are buggy. > (Buggy implementations in CPEs will be really hard to debug or trace back > for people outside the network, will be hard/impossible to get fixed, an= d will > result in dual-stack content getting switched to IPv4-only to work around= issues. +1. We have a very long history of broken IPv6 deployments in residential networks caused by buggy CPEs. > Some specific thoughts: > > * Would it make sense to change away from the "MUST" implement > and instead require all modes to be used only with configuration by > the network operator? (Having that configuration include an allowlist > of IP(v4) prefixes which are candidates for the optimization may furthe= r help.) > This at least allows this to get disabled in cases where it causing pro= blems > while still letting network operators use it for content they want to o= ptimize > in coordination with CDN partners. Using this with off-the-shelf CPEs = seems > dangerous as bugs there can have high damage risk to IPv6 content deplo= yment > without a good path to fix. I second that. I believe it 'MUST BE disabled by default' Taking into account the following: - not every operator would need this; - it's very likely that potential issues on CPEs would affect some IPv6-enabled destinations only so it would not even look like a CPE or the ISP network issue but more like the destination problem. - the issues would mostly affect devices like SmartTVs etc with very limited troubleshooting capacity (while on a laptop I can run a packet capture or traceroute, such steps would be more difficult on a TV box); - troubleshooting issues with this technology is rather tricky and might be impossible if the operator is not aware of the functionality being quietly enabled on *some* CPEs in the network; I believe that the operator needs to explicitly enable the feature and make sure it's enabled on well-tested CPEs only. > * We should add the security risk discussed previously to Security Consid= erations. > (ie, clients/apps ignoring DNS TTL can still be hijacked to other IPs e= ven without > DNS spoofing if an app with the same MAC (same device or behind a NAT/r= outer) > does a DNS lookup to an attacker-controlled hostname.) The Security Section still states 'This document does not have any new specific security considerations, besides the ones already known for DNS64.'. I'm not sure that this statement is correct - we have discussed various attacks vectors). Also it looks to me that if the CPE does not support DNSSEC, the attacker can perform the DNS spoofing even if the host itself does DNSSEC validation. A few more things: 1) did I miss it or the STUN case is not addressed in -03? 2) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimizat= ion-03#section-5.2.3 "Note that the NAT46/CLAT MUST already know the WKP or NSP being used in that network. " Shall the text say that if the CPE can not discover the NAT64 prefix the optimization MUST be disabled? 3) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimizat= ion-03#section-5.2.5 "The EAMT entry MUST only be created if all the following conditions are me= t:" Shall it be another condition 'there is no entry for the given MAC and the destination IPv4 address'? Actually it would be great to describe a state machine a bit more clearly. I found it a bit hard to follow the algorithm..(maybe it's just me, quite possible ;) "An EAMT entry marked as "Stale" or "Invalid", only affects the relevant host. " - does it mean that Active EAMT entry would affect other hosts? 4) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimizat= ion-03#section-5.2.11 "Because the EAMT entries are only created when the NAT46/CLAT/CE proxy/stub DNS is being used, any hosts or applications that don't use DNS, will not create the relevant entries. They will not be optimized unless EAMT entries are statically configured." I might be missing smth but if we have two applications on the same IPv4-only host, one has asked for A RR for a name, so an EAMT entry got created - if the second application is trying to use the same IPv4 address (3rd-party DNS or IPv4-literals), the traffic from the second application would be optimized as well, right? The similar concern is for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization= -03#section-5.2.12 - what happenes if one application is using the system resolver (=3D=3D the CPE) while another application is using other resolvers? It looks to me that this scenario makes entries collisions very possible as the CPE would not be able to invalidate the entry (by detecting 'the same IPv4, different IPv6' case). Am I missing smth? > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:24 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry, was a bit congested with other work last week to finish this vers= ion.. >> >> I'm still working in some of the previous emails, to make sure that this= version has addressed them. I will be responding ASAP. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> @jordipalet >> >> >> >> =EF=BB=BFEl 28/7/20 16:16, "v6ops-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de internet= -drafts@ietf.org" escribi=C3=B3: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d= irectories. >> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. >> >> Title : 464XLAT/MAT-T Optimization >> Authors : Jordi Palet Martinez >> Alejandro D'Egidio >> Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-03.txt >> Pages : 24 >> Date : 2020-07-28 >> >> Abstract: >> IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm (SIIT) can be used to provide acces= s >> for IPv4-only hosts or applications to IPv4-only or dual-stack >> destinations over IPv6-only infrastructure. In that case, the >> traffic flows are translated twice: first from IPv4 to IPv6 >> (stateless NAT46 at the ingress point to the IPv6-only >> infrastructure) and then from IPv6 back to IPv4 (stateful NAT64, = at >> the egress point). When the destination is IPv6-enabled, the sec= ond >> translation might be avoided. This document describes a possible >> optimization to 464XLAT and MAP-T to avoid translating IPv6 flows >> back to IPv4 if the destination is reachable over IPv6. The prop= osed >> solution would significantly reduce the NAT64 utilization in the >> operator's network, increasing the performance. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimizati= on/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-0= 3 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optim= ization-03 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimiz= ation-03 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of su= bmission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or = confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of th= e individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosur= e, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even i= f partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be c= onsidered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be awar= e that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this= information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly proh= ibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the ori= ginal sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Tue Aug 11 07:55:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EBA3A1125; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HPrFVGWMFORc; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6C323A112C; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id 07BEt2XQ027876; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:55:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=boeing.com; s=boeing-s1912; t=1597157703; bh=QYS7AmTkaKTK5SiehPfs4qA25QNw/gKos56uReQIxpE=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=EpLtFHgJdqYStbYrGMbGcXAZZsH1Wu6VVO7bGIBlzUuwk/TqwiJmhqWNCY4KYFNIh IWrjUZuJlRO143FZmSJ5ck/RJW8DUbxobyv4SDeaBLzIovfOqZjaAbOa1FA29ZxxpX a/FPNtP5J/ipTJ35NjIxWgYOBTFrN8CzVCq95iqp/k7sRYVSY1A4rKxMJVxx0IbbT/ WAT8TSWXBQQF8JT3LEUnBO3lv8gzOgJBfP/jIUMxTEFR3NHfYSh0Zx3TW+WaYZH1TW QQos+pYF9RPG7sJz8QvVTW0ESUDpo5uFEuXRs5hq1WlS6pB4o6xt2EdEDX27Zh+5BX UlM3rB0EA7lxg== Received: from XCH16-07-12.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-12.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.114]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 07BEspQm025666 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:54:51 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-12.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:54:50 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:54:50 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard CC: IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWbybPrOFhMkmZiUuiI7eoPNuCZqky/hVw Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:54:50 +0000 Message-ID: <1f9fa5c8087c46939402a06557711140@boeing.com> References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> <3D71C5A6-D7FD-45B1-B43C-5526D3A6E55C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3D71C5A6-D7FD-45B1-B43C-5526D3A6E55C@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 8BCD597B49FCAC5AE9C7BBBAE8A701F88588E2EE07B11EC2AC4A4676159E8E6C2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:55:16 -0000 Hi Bob, > > Maybe we need an ID which states this explicitly: "Large broadcast doma= ins considered harmful"? As long as we have broadcast > domains, people will be tempted to make them too large and will express s= urprise that they don't scale well. >=20 > I agree on both points. I would be willing to help write such a draft, = but think it would be better with authors who have direct > operational experience. Some NBMA links can be *very* large, with all nodes on the link as candidat= es for receiving link-scoped multicast. However, with proper controls on limiting the transm= ission of link scoped multicast, the transmissions can be effectively propagated to exactl= y that (small) group of nodes on the link that actually need to receive them. So, if there= is going to be a draft please make sure to add a note to the effect that properly engineered= NBMA links are an exception, and can in fact support a very large broadcast domain. Thanks - Fred >=20 > Bob From nobody Tue Aug 11 08:00:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA5E3A0BD9 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ows95XddXW93 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 183523A0BD6 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id p4so11929364qkf.0 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=riJjisC4RLCD8gdWSpLWQh1vKndt/u9as7nnS90yAbo=; b=uD6NAQTsc3COGeKc9X9fjCVNa8JpROxAVcDFWfUVXEfJokGT9X+TbeDvDCVf5WRHqQ jH3QZMvmK4ODuZcYJkkLZCvR1BYXSVWusIvg7ueq0E2wCtTvERDkVkkhBaUADbMPoYec X4EJly7cd295waBUyV+CX2qA8w+Ah/mtuuN6u29+vRaFW/nimKP1hE8j7INvOXeR1nNM PHzUbv300rAxYNShVXqpKwh7Ph5HTG5URMQ+Jyw1G9VqE08g9LJE3d6ykv7l914E2UVm T5CcyhbMMnahjSxaQFX8BJAnzB/MLoMp6Ryj5GlAhmK7Lw/1esRLHaSFxmUdMYz6PirJ s55Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=riJjisC4RLCD8gdWSpLWQh1vKndt/u9as7nnS90yAbo=; b=GGzTZT7TVXfKfgduPzNgJFJvrwyyhCdIL7gGD0CyiKeUSiR7LxnIhVZK49SEX1wAh9 I4Ex8iksYouVfdz3bVj+4y1iK9OmqIilAjCIh4JIDHEiKJgVZEBuLMQFpVERNtGls4IQ 0uHFI67JRRm3OMixAZEdyGR1QMv6Ei/JeJqhquhyjd0kioNqMAoXFtypTirl4fkDfcuR uSUlwyM2iG8r94gb13RtXwUjNjnegNpwvPPDnSuszby23Raic2+zqPZDXA+OuYHJZkB0 BjtXGmThPdszrSJXtoYBgK//gmmvtxP4CDiG+BcmMNbMUxH4yEWCfFpkp91RmHKOWu2p cAug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530v7VTVYSufgTxVkDoeKm9pnD9QJuUr/5n1o0uzL3v2oSNFDmyC H1F+1x23qO77alhZ8HfKvTU3uQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHavuAfov8L1HHXNSjPZ4ejAzowAFtuGxDuDLdl7ThNEC3VOe5/doFR/C5AaS9iWS/RdXtQw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:6351:: with SMTP id x78mr1557795qkb.394.1597157991820; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2601:18b:300:36ee:b88e:901b:ad8b:f1fc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r188sm17491309qkb.122.2020.08.11.07.59.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <1B9240A0-4F6A-4A4B-881D-25121EEF7DE9@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2B402558-BE8A-454E-9143-424CB96E00D6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:59:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1f9fa5c8087c46939402a06557711140@boeing.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List To: "Templin (US), Fred L" References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> <0A2FD466-6DB0-4378-88B7-AB99D32C2180@gmail.com> <89a4f4fc-7f4a-52c5-83b9-bd112f7a831a@foobar.org> <3D71C5A6-D7FD-45B1-B43C-5526D3A6E55C@gmail.com> <1f9fa5c8087c46939402a06557711140@boeing.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:59:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2B402558-BE8A-454E-9143-424CB96E00D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Aug 11, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > Some NBMA links can be *very* large, with all nodes on the link as = candidates for receiving > link-scoped multicast. However, with proper controls on limiting the = transmission of link > scoped multicast, the transmissions can be effectively propagated to = exactly that (small) > group of nodes on the link that actually need to receive them. So, if = there is going to be a > draft please make sure to add a note to the effect that properly = engineered NBMA links > are an exception, and can in fact support a very large broadcast = domain. This seems related to the notion that rather than doing unacknowledged = multicasts on WiFi, the AP should simply unicast the multicast packet to = all interested stations serially. --Apple-Mail=_2B402558-BE8A-454E-9143-424CB96E00D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Aug 11, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
Some NBMA links can be *very* large, with all nodes on the = link as candidates for receiving
link-scoped multicast. However, with proper controls on = limiting the transmission of link
scoped multicast, the transmissions can be effectively = propagated to exactly that (small)
group of nodes on the link that actually need to receive = them. So, if there is going to be a
draft please make sure to add a note to the effect that = properly engineered NBMA links
are an exception, and can in fact support a very large = broadcast domain.

This seems related to the notion that rather than doing = unacknowledged multicasts on WiFi, the AP should simply unicast the = multicast packet to all interested stations serially.

= --Apple-Mail=_2B402558-BE8A-454E-9143-424CB96E00D6-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 09:49:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA543A0824; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkKJnVR3DOLZ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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XCH16-07-09.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-09.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.111]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 07BGmEms009942 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:48:14 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-09.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:48:13 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:48:13 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Ted Lemon CC: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AdZv/nPAXPbo98BsTRy+/vxuNZBYcw== Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:48:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US 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\(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:02:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List To: "Templin (US), Fred L" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:03:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C5F67D10-9B24-4438-9B0E-04162AD37BB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 11, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > That is more or less the principle for NBMA, yes. But take a = conservatively-sized NBMA > link with 1M nodes on the link but only 2-3 of them need to receive = the multicast then > serially unicasting seems pretty efficient and does not disturb the = vast majority of > nodes that don=E2=80=99t care. Indeed, I was not expressing this as a criticism. I wonder if there=E2=80=99= s a way to get that kind of reduction for regular NS/NA pairs. I think = for the =E2=80=9CI want to send a packet to foo=E2=80=9D case, this is = easy; the question is, what about during SLAAC? --Apple-Mail=_C5F67D10-9B24-4438-9B0E-04162AD37BB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Aug 11, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
That is more = or less the principle for NBMA, yes. But take a conservatively-sized = NBMA
link with 1M nodes on the link but only 2-3 of them need to = receive the multicast then
serially = unicasting seems pretty efficient and does not disturb the vast majority = of
nodes that don=E2=80=99t = care.

Indeed, I was not expressing this as a criticism. I wonder if = there=E2=80=99s a way to get that kind of reduction for regular NS/NA = pairs. I think for the =E2=80=9CI want to send a packet to foo=E2=80=9D = case, this is easy; the question is, what about during SLAAC?

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AOAM531YjcDT9P1ovR88LzZU24p6yorDFPZvP+uXi3HWgYfYhm0Jp920 MeF0+t4rRhLlxgzboCxmr8fUmg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwO6KDhPAScVFz3+ueKUvjIEXfBZkjKxrGQl7PZ28Yz4W2NYYZ8BkfNhjR0nZkaTzKkOwKpLQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4b52:: with SMTP id e18mr2230173qts.231.1597167351561; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2601:18b:300:36ee:b88e:901b:ad8b:f1fc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n15sm17678719qkk.28.2020.08.11.10.35.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:35:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8F35E62C-9A2B-45F0-BDB3-D077D336067D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:35:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: <8b5d5420e55b435aa578c20bd99f3407@boeing.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List To: "Templin (US), Fred L" References: <8b5d5420e55b435aa578c20bd99f3407@boeing.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8F35E62C-9A2B-45F0-BDB3-D077D336067D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > I have more or less punted on the subject of SLAAC and consider the = NBMA links I am > dealing with as link-local-only. SLAAC brings the problem of what to = do about DAD > and MLD. I think on-link prefixes on large NBMA links are an = unnecessary burden > and should be avoided =E2=80=93 do you see it differently? No, I think you=E2=80=99re making the right choice for your use case. = But for a typical WiFi network, the scale is smaller both in terms of = time and number of nodes. =20 > Address resolution is a different question, though; if a node on the = NBMA link wants > to resolve the address of a subnet router for a target destination it = can send NS(AR) > to the solicited-node multicast address corresponding to the target. = The =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D > will then go to exactly one node, which is the target subnet router, = and the resultant > NA(AR) is unicast back to the (single) node that sent the NS. Very = efficient, and > again without disturbing the massive numbers of other nodes on the = link. Do WiFi base stations implement this correctly, or do they broadcast? --Apple-Mail=_8F35E62C-9A2B-45F0-BDB3-D077D336067D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Aug 11, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
I have more or = less punted on the subject of SLAAC and consider the NBMA links I am
dealing with as link-local-only. SLAAC brings the problem of = what to do about DAD
and MLD. I = think on-link prefixes on large NBMA links are an unnecessary burden
and should be avoided =E2=80=93 do you see it = differently?

No, I think you=E2=80=99re making the right choice for = your use case. But for a typical WiFi network, the scale is smaller both = in terms of time and number of nodes.
 
Address resolution is a different question, though; if a node = on the NBMA link wants
to resolve the = address of a subnet router for a target destination it can send = NS(AR)
to the solicited-node multicast address = corresponding to the target. The =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D
will then go to exactly one node, which is the target subnet = router, and the resultant
NA(AR) is = unicast back to the (single) node that sent the NS. Very efficient, = and
again without disturbing the massive numbers of other nodes = on the link.

Do WiFi base stations implement this correctly, or do they = broadcast?

= --Apple-Mail=_8F35E62C-9A2B-45F0-BDB3-D077D336067D-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 11:19:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BF13A084A; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fPuIpci5CyDq; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_B2977764-7D18-445C-B938-92E7C3D4FC6C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:22:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Nick Hilliard , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List To: "Templin (US), Fred L" References: <8b5d5420e55b435aa578c20bd99f3407@boeing.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:22:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B2977764-7D18-445C-B938-92E7C3D4FC6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 11, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: > In the NBMA case, we leverage unicast routing in an overlay BGP = routing topology > based on the NS target address. For a WiFi base station, it could use = broadcast > but that might not scale well if the number of nodes in the broadcast = domain is > large. Alternatively, it could do the unicast/multicast emulation the = same as > for the NBMA case if an overlay BGP routing topology is established. But there=E2=80=99s no reason for an overlay topology. The question is, = is there a way for it to know which stations to send the multicast too? = If so, then it should just iterate across that set of stations using = unicast, which is a lot faster. If not, then it probably has no choice = but to broadcast. Sorry if these are naive questions=E2=80=94I haven=E2=80= =99t really dug around in the details of how WiFi routers do multicast, = so I have just enough knowledge to appear really ignorant. --Apple-Mail=_B2977764-7D18-445C-B938-92E7C3D4FC6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Aug 11, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
In the NBMA case, we leverage unicast routing in an overlay = BGP routing topology
based on the = NS target address. For a WiFi base station, it could use broadcast
but that might not scale well if the number of nodes in the = broadcast domain is
large. = Alternatively, it could do the unicast/multicast emulation the same = as
for the NBMA case if an overlay BGP routing topology is = established.

But there=E2=80=99s no reason for an overlay = topology. The question is, is there a way for it to know which stations = to send the multicast too? If so, then it should just iterate across = that set of stations using unicast, which is a lot faster. If not, then = it probably has no choice but to broadcast. Sorry if these are naive = questions=E2=80=94I haven=E2=80=99t really dug around in the details of = how WiFi routers do multicast, so I have just enough knowledge to appear = really ignorant.

= --Apple-Mail=_B2977764-7D18-445C-B938-92E7C3D4FC6C-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 11:36:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E63A0A6E for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwKqAF95xJ9O for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 738A83A0A36 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id z14so14687891ljm.1 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:35:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2sV5P+jxuuPIXYsOEyM8mEjgBSiy2MwzAD8y+1VLbpA=; b=MwCZLR7gYMPuBb0uCXMV/x+xsfo1WPKzL/tCK64SVaMkMaOscOkb2y0BrXuVi2kvgJ aztN8lImYD9QchKq6lIzThJ3+/mB2yaItdP3dmbH9px4A1nRE+151rJfPVzNAVVyaAOD YQ6OLiutqRCra8fLcHQHAzlg6BCLT1wvVcubAYTzrBQJwiiqEbT9YLjLEuNEhXiw33sE WEyihbeqBZ2oww97PiBgGEBpqsTirYcs7Y3RnBIuXltuMSZeVW9p1AIMF4mwxU8W9gay 4TRw7rlBuS49UpfusWeKvLYq2r8sAjTzxGH3nGZiZfW3FANna8+bJhBcBG8tigcithDu UvPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2sV5P+jxuuPIXYsOEyM8mEjgBSiy2MwzAD8y+1VLbpA=; b=VQkVKKskXwcQp/oOZ3N6VooI0wjZwWIQloBFIptMDDzJdpRw1xrCJ+13SCDGILMRPI T4hMWuBytsvVTJ5QrPNs8JfqEWkb99bajYkkFgsi3bqEF5l52exqBxL55me83qmlVQWd k/lAHd065ZTsCmbAPLzm/58JfZxA/1qghfySM7YihGmSzLIPOkvBjRT3f4eETXDK2/qg rV6oh8UuQwT38vrXvndu2OrRBCW+oVY6YEGLfcIJ2Z4SGrQ3iYHFM8WWxRN5f1sp7F+J H1z/mckKcHAAAKHucLIZ1VPcQ34juUeewpuoL+/ATgUxXZ7rhB2vpH39FNXDxUTVcCg/ r4dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/KRIx871zDHqRp9T7i3UcI+t3WYv8BPSzpZkZxu9wJHf3FmBS 8+8qfS/84jSjT1NgYoW9rGQtCi706I2gFFiHRZsmuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNEcBU18oLvJh8q6m4T+5onQt5ASgXesb0CGIJ9mKU8XJUYwn6Js/nmvHthDG2EfVxB6zoz5O9AxNf3hV3+kA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9bc1:: with SMTP id w1mr3188517ljj.79.1597170954175; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1D1A68AE-4C75-4DF0-8C7C-3500DB67C8FB@fugue.com> <4B1A43D0-45B1-4C73-8B09-089D4EC1FFF7@cisco.com> <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <17A8FA06-3776-450A-B549-958157AD5784@gmail.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:35:16 -0400 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg , IPv6 List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:35:59 -0000 On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 3:13 PM Bob Hinden wrote: > > Pascal, > > > On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > > > We have some Ted; > > > > In large meetings we measured way above 100 ND multicast messages per s= econd on the wire, for 90 minutes in a row. > > What does =E2=80=9Cway above 100=E2=80=9D mean? 101, 1000, 10000, ? Do you remember IETF 99 (July 16-21, 2017, Prague, Czech Republic, 1230 onsite attendees) and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Network? This was on the order of 2,000 broadcast / multicast packets per second. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems-11, Section 3.2.4. Spurious Neighbor Discovery - "Around 2,000 broadcasts per second have been observed at the IETF NOC during face-to-face meetings." Apart from destroying the wireless, this kills mobile device battery life..= .. > > 100 per second doesn=E2=80=99t seem excessive to me. What percentage of = overall messages was that? How many nodes on the link? For many networks, the broadcast/multicast load DECREASES as the number of nodes INCREASES. For something like the IETF network, we are constantly getting background radiation from scanners, etc. This leads to neighbor discovery / ARP requests for unused space, leading to B&M. Once the network gets "fuller" the neighbor discovery traffic drops significantly.... See also https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-proble= ms-11 , Section 4, esp 4.6, Section 5.1, and, well, all of the other sections too.... > > Bob > > > > > > This was on the wire because we use proprietary tech to dampen the wire= less side, things like ND proxy but based on snooping for the lack of a bet= ter information. Yes, modern wifi devices do many many non-standard (and often blackmagic/poorly documented) things to try and mitigate these issues. Unfortunately they often fail in bizarre and difficult to troubleshoot ways... > > > > I asked for the figures at the last 2 in person IETF meetings but never= got them. First time I asked too late, there needs to be due process to gu= arantee anonymity. Not sure if they were captured in Singapore and if so wh= ere they are. Who / where did you ask for this? And what exactly were you wanting to collect -- a simple rate of broadcast / multicast would probably have been easy, and not privacy invasive... W > > > > Take care, > > > > Pascal > > > >> Le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 18:04, Ted Lemon a =C3= =A9crit : > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFDo we have data that indicates that this would be an improvem= ent? > >> > >>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 11:47, Philip Homburg = wrote: > >>> > >>> =EF=BB=BF > >>>> > >>>> So what I'm after is the host behavior of "not onlink" for the > >>>> lookup phase, the router behavior of onlink for the redirect phase, > >>>> and the L bit set iff the link is P2P or a transit. E.g., in a > >>>> distributed fabric, all addresses "reside on-link and can be reached > >>>> directly without going through a router" and yet we want to avoid > >>>> broadcast lookups. > >>> > >>> Suppose we have a no-multicast bit, that tells a host to send traffic= to > >>> its default router when it doesn't have a neighbor in the NC cache. > >>> > >>> It is not clear to me how the semantics would be different from clear= ing the > >>> L-bit, but if you think there are considerable differences, why no wr= ite > >>> a draft that describes the use of such a bit. > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Tue Aug 11 12:33:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143C33A0B45; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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[EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWcBZDozN/TbgM60KTlQsJYZVlgQ== Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:33:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8b5d5420e55b435aa578c20bd99f3407@boeing.com> <500105DD-90B0-4870-AF97-6213798221DF@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <500105DD-90B0-4870-AF97-6213798221DF@fugue.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 05BCB4D63E877FEA53F73F591055384B63715E850F7DD4C5E82DE4D13C4532462000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d4dc68ad019f44f09f7e1d791845f0b2boeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:33:52 -0000 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([2600:8802:5800:652::1011]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z4sm26107541pfb.55.2020.08.11.13.47.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:47:28 -0700 Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-Id: References: To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:47:32 -0000 > Do WiFi base stations implement this correctly, or do they broadcast? I would expect that WiFi Base Stations multicast. However, understand what t= hat means.=20 On the air interface, they are either transmitting or not. In the receiving N= IC, the question is whether or not they store the message; if they are not c= onfigured to receive a certain multicast group, regardless of transmission t= ype, they receive and store the message and then forget that they have done s= o, re-using the buffer for the next message. If they forward the message on,= it uses the bandwidth on the other side, whatever it is, with the same dest= ination address.=20 The place where one might distinguish =E2=80=9Cbroadcast=E2=80=9D from =E2=80= =9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D is on a data center switch, where =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2= =80=9D might mean keeping a list of relevant ports and only sending to them.= They want to send a message once. If they are sending the same message seve= ral times, =E2=80=9Cto whom=E2=80=9D is an important question.= From nobody Tue Aug 11 13:57:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9863A0D5F for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sFPfb7Yg_U8N for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F9803A0DBA for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id g26so195812qka.3 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=g2EHmt5tyaqPAiGxrnKLJU3Tp3fuYArqRQoCCku28co=; b=outeS7muD3/EIGP4Aif3U/rMQRttUr6SmNjvYLETxP/EMFozZdg5aHPgwrzFUbtA/1 UxbRz2YMLjHdfFJEVETWfXg6fDXj0q6vT0t2S+VoENIVvoD3KrjULdm8H79F2qdVDomF fyb57G8IVC+0dzzYom3CCNuJ9lSioBZ/qTFL2lXL0Je6ZwNJ6p5slQbKJx0Nrf5PUctm /o7Z4BiWKx2vGNlOGXxkDFBZd+X4sIm4OHgO5Q/Geu8uxBrRkU76INeb/H+xNNH2lCQ9 BAG2L21OPG+ruC7mzk6YN7dd4BD+mefRi+vp0GbDcuX0v7RoXuVifYeW+Aj4P9xNoWm9 KBAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=g2EHmt5tyaqPAiGxrnKLJU3Tp3fuYArqRQoCCku28co=; b=t8w6qvKX0uKtG3TrNTtgOgkiz3Lkbm9JSLX/0IIjbLG1kPea+Rio85m5lwXlagMPdh dPCiCdAgCTNqBkKbw7qReTXG3WrPdT0uZP4+pFpl2GGmQJcKPCb9uInNKmowluk5+vHa lC+cgDzA9CYd73myc60BoWq+Sszurt+CK+3/xMQ6fklhBglbTcuIVThBdLGL8b0Dl6uY wYD+XLllzPZvr6Tmz6m8k/9TnX6kSOIPZ4eU6iPg1LxrZv2SVCpf5sUNEVBogaIwyYYD GshHWJ9fFn4UzDkgfqICIIv4LsFITzWNWI33bmrCtjcMNNLY4G9bBhLwpWc52ALWCFf8 psGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ntzoHfIrlrtaaJYX8s0sfnu0pMhxpjsPq+xk4UB1uO7XvSOC3 Gz3+WYdQ8V+749/rep2oRM96Ew== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7jvwG9mDUvFKrNjWcwlRs3gzfxHiPmQFGUb+pqKznQ/Hv3ZWHyNHfeY2fLSFWm/7vlAApPg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:850:: with SMTP id 77mr2966869qki.90.1597179428440; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2601:18b:300:36ee:b88e:901b:ad8b:f1fc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v45sm21289714qtc.42.2020.08.11.13.57.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:57:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <54CD29D0-69AC-40B8-B665-4CBCA62D1F51@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_59B1955E-C0A9-4629-BA3F-412A8C7C0271" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:57:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Templin (US), Fred L" , IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Fred Baker References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:57:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_59B1955E-C0A9-4629-BA3F-412A8C7C0271 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 11, 2020, at 4:47 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: > On the air interface, they are either transmitting or not. In the = receiving NIC, the question is whether or not they store the message; if = they are not configured to receive a certain multicast group, regardless = of transmission type, they receive and store the message and then forget = that they have done so, re-using the buffer for the next message. If = they forward the message on, it uses the bandwidth on the other side, = whatever it is, with the same destination address.=20 >=20 > The place where one might distinguish =E2=80=9Cbroadcast=E2=80=9D from = =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D is on a data center switch, where = =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D might mean keeping a list of relevant ports = and only sending to them. They want to send a message once. If they are = sending the same message several times, =E2=80=9Cto whom=E2=80=9D is an = important question. Hm. What I do know about WiFi is that actual multicast messages are not = acknowledged (because they can=E2=80=99t be) and are therefore sent at = lower data rates, so that multicasts occupy much larger time slices per = packet. A multicast is notionally only intended for a subset of all = connected nodes. If the WiFi base station knows which nodes are = interested in a particular multicast address, and that number is small, = then it would nearly always be faster to transmit the message to each = node as a unicast. The question is, for a particular WiFi AP, can it know which of its = connected WiFi nodes are interested in a particular NS, or do we have to = multicast it to every node? If this is known in the data center, then it must be known on the AP, = right? --Apple-Mail=_59B1955E-C0A9-4629-BA3F-412A8C7C0271 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Aug 11, 2020, at 4:47 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On the air = interface, they are either transmitting or not. In the receiving NIC, = the question is whether or not they store the message; if they are not = configured to receive a certain multicast group, regardless of = transmission type, they receive and store the message and then forget = that they have done so, re-using the buffer for the next message. If = they forward the message on, it uses the bandwidth on the other side, = whatever it is, with the same destination address. 

The place = where one might distinguish =E2=80=9Cbroadcast=E2=80=9D from = =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D is on a data center switch, where = =E2=80=9Cmulticast=E2=80=9D might mean keeping a list of relevant ports = and only sending to them. They want to send a message once. If they are = sending the same message several times, =E2=80=9Cto whom=E2=80=9D is an = important question.

Hm. What I do know about WiFi is that = actual multicast messages are not acknowledged (because they can=E2=80=99t= be) and are therefore sent at lower data rates, so that multicasts = occupy much larger time slices per packet. A multicast is notionally = only intended for a subset of all connected nodes. If the WiFi base = station knows which nodes are interested in a particular multicast = address, and that number is small, then it would nearly always be faster = to transmit the message to each node as a unicast.

The question is, for a = particular WiFi AP, can it know which of its connected WiFi nodes are = interested in a particular NS, or do we have to multicast it to every = node?

If this = is known in the data center, then it must be known on the AP, = right?

= --Apple-Mail=_59B1955E-C0A9-4629-BA3F-412A8C7C0271-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 14:04:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068833A0C78; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=boeing.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GVzVLKCmIi8t; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:03:39 +0000 Message-ID: <5e83c523ef934837816c37845ca19e26@boeing.com> References: <8b5d5420e55b435aa578c20bd99f3407@boeing.com> <500105DD-90B0-4870-AF97-6213798221DF@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 5DD679CABE7B80E4BF7980DF0B521BD2751A02664AADA9F40BC3CE14EA8D990A2000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5e83c523ef934837816c37845ca19e26boeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:03:56 -0000 --_000_5e83c523ef934837816c37845ca19e26boeingcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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b=vbvEMQx9R32Crnc/IAlf/jxUvaqWAmEQVv8i+0yahU1Md2zmqaaScOEnOXcSTceujCJzav4vOi+fnzDsAL9TdtI4X1BtT4WVfjqYHYiIabPO+WuDG2M1duYwXdaOwbnfM7aqpg1pJk85Ca/ASsPSF3FtrQzKmJLilZTlQrg+QRI= Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:ea::31) by MN2PR11MB3598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f0::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3261.19; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:02:40 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a53e:5801:92cc:3204]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a53e:5801:92cc:3204%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3261.024; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:02:40 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Ted Lemon CC: Fred Baker , IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AdZwAe3HZS3uE7CuQvyH5tanRxOuoQAA+xOAAAaxfAAAAFZHgAACSgiv Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:02:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: , 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(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0F576761-D81B-4973-AD21-CD2754BC8B35" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:08:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <54CD29D0-69AC-40B8-B665-4CBCA62D1F51@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:08:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0F576761-D81B-4973-AD21-CD2754BC8B35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:02 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: > We found the result to be non-satisfactory largely because of the = limitations of snooping. So we brought RFC 8605 yo the IETF with no IPR = attached.=20 vCard Format Extensions? But yes, what you say makes sense, assuming you meant RFC 8505. :) --Apple-Mail=_0F576761-D81B-4973-AD21-CD2754BC8B35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Aug 11, 2020, at 6:02 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> = wrote:
We found the result to be = non-satisfactory largely because of the limitations of snooping. So we = brought RFC 8605 yo the IETF with no IPR = attached. 

vCard = Format Extensions?

But yes, what you = say makes sense, assuming you meant RFC 8505. :)


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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bb3b47he3aUJ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9D033A0EDE; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id k18so565115qtm.10; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:54:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WPqx0q9UXjzDsLQY/T885T2eoDCKaBdN2RfSRHBiTMY=; 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AOAM533znc/SYyaBp9+fwq8LhujyVFN3b/OrW15i62IptuGGcaktFMEo wO/M5CAC7orHvy9pbmCjkNoLQej41WexGf4qI3g1Yw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS7loTD5zbST41SzgoL7hST4AlfxCxt47L/qnTeTJLXiGgoU6k5NJA419v/mC3LT0se/SW1I8jqMiWb0lm0yQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6f22:: with SMTP id i2mr4479469qtv.384.1597204468675; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:54:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:54:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: V6 Ops List , 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:54:31 -0000 On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:28 PM Philip Homburg wrote: > > In your letter dated Sun, 9 Aug 2020 19:28:51 +1000 you wrote: > >I guess we can add to the very end of the Section 4.1.2 (the new text): > >"A node MAY send unsolicited NAs for its preferred addresses > >periodically to refresh the Neighbor Cache on the first hop routers." > > > >On the other hand it might pollute the router NC with entries for > >addresses which the node has configured but is not going to use. > > > >What does the WG think? > > A few thoughts: > > 1) It has to specified how often the host has to refresh entries Yes, and it would be very tricky because (as I've mentioned in another email in this thread) finding the useful interval requires knowing the timers for NC garbage collection on routers. > 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility to deal with 1) > and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interval. Then we > can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOULD or MUST I'm not convinced we shall be doing it in the first place ;) And MUST or even SHOULD look like a very strong requirement on all hosts just to cover the very special case of sleeping devices. > 3) What happens if there are more entries then fit in the router's NC? I guess the same thing which happens in other scenarios when the router is trying to create an entry and there is no free space. > 4) It has been argued against DHCPv6 IA_NA that hosts may need more > addresses than can be handled by the DHCP server. There is an RFC > that says something to that effect. If so, then we can expect > more address than can be handled by the router NC as well. I think > we need to be consistent here. Or is this only for some special > networks where host have only few addresses? > can also expect hoss Yes, I agree. Normally when a host *assigns* an address it's very likely that the host is going to use it soon. Periodic announcements for all preferred addresses does look like an overkill to me. > 5) Hosts have to inform all routers, so this would require hosts to track > all routers and just a few of them I'm not sure about this - ff02::2 should work. > 6) It seems to me that this would something for a new draft i totally agree. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Aug 12 02:05:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5B13A114A; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <9sgUHYx-anUl> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9sgUHYx-anUl; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 204493A0E69; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305) (Smail #157) id m1k5mh0-0000FYC; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:05:06 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: Jen Linkova Cc: 6man From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:54:16 +1000 ." Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:05:05 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:05:13 -0000 >Periodic announcements for all preferred addresses does look like an >overkill to me. [Just commenting on this particular point] It is not clear to me where the notion comes from that deprecated address can be ignored. Deprecated addresses are perfectly fine addresses, they are just not used to set up new connections (unless there is no alternative). In particular, during renumbering deprecated address can still be in DNS. Decrecated address can be used in various ways to separate outgoing from incoming traffic. So if we want to inform a router about addresses that belong to a host, then we should report all addresses. From nobody Wed Aug 12 02:13:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C983A1158; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d1vKsadKN1eg; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C3833A1155; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305) (Smail #157) id m1k5mor-0000I8C; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:13:13 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: 6man From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> , <5AE47FCC-E863-4872-9EA2-FE49A1C56C0B@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:58:33 +0000 ." <5AE47FCC-E863-4872-9EA2-FE49A1C56C0B@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:13:12 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:13:30 -0000 > I was suggesting to do that within GRAND so we have a path to ship. > Reason is those functions really work well together. Given the complexity of this subject, it is in my opinion better to have a series of small drafts that can be discussed separately. From nobody Wed Aug 12 03:49:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0575C3A1214; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEbN385mezo8; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ACCD3A1213; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml738-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B81769258774559C51E0; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:49:23 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) by lhreml738-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.188) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:49:23 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:22 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:22 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Ted Lemon" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Thread-Topic: Multicast problem in IPv6 address management Thread-Index: AdZwipzxSyA49jGGRsKhoVN1GRZp7w== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:49:22 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fa3788c64f1a4c3b8fea99536a08dcb3huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:49:30 -0000 --_000_fa3788c64f1a4c3b8fea99536a08dcb3huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KVGhpcyBkaXNwdXRlIGlzIGFib3V0OiBTaG91bGQgd2UgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQgTXVs dGljYXN0IGlzIHRoZSBiYXNpYyB0ZWNobm9sb2d5IGF2YWlsYWJsZSBvbiBhbnkgTDI/IFNob3Vs 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cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:36:04 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-01-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 05:36:01 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 05:36:01 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "Manfredi (US), Albert E" , Ted Lemon CC: Bob Hinden , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "IPv6 List" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AdZwpRSiEe6oNB+AQlqLrpXmMcXdqQ== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:36:01 +0000 Message-ID: <7f9b1337d1324bb1a6d4a952b245c2c7@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 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[144.115.66.110]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 07CDvc3H022660 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:57:38 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:57:36 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:57:36 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Vasilenko Eduard , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Ted Lemon CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Thread-Topic: Multicast problem in IPv6 address management Thread-Index: AdZwipzxSyA49jGGRsKhoVN1GRZp7wAJRt/Q Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:57:36 +0000 Message-ID: <16dc5091ff6149128c1001e2c444ba96@boeing.com> 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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zuEzKrKzUeP5 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEFBD3A12AC for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id z17so1721713ill.6 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:09:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9hQ5qy8FPhJID9ud81y5DiirWKROuZ+Kbu8DP6BAsl8=; b=jeq5VmruJgUw1YFmR/mVfeYXJO94bGGr9dbw8S8+3ErBuYSKjhVRVN6sVQeosoqk3U 4YVLG5LyQVVr/mwaFcVP/M1wHeRakC+Kurlf3osQuMA3rzNYKS18WXbHtp/8nWvk+8aT 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ABdhPJwkA2mC4G+owa5UC9vgbyrg19qDMVg1CcFYRcRPyxRglMCgIORA9jaHg7OxTwNZaQeqZbcH1uWnHOFrjnPcJoY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:874a:: with SMTP id d10mr28598203ilm.273.1597241398673; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:09:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:09:46 +0900 Message-ID: To: Jen Linkova Cc: Philip Homburg , V6 Ops List , 6man Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030c3d405acaebe96" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:10:01 -0000 --00000000000030c3d405acaebe96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:55 PM Jen Linkova wrote: > > 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility to deal with 1) > > and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interval. Then we > > can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOULD or MUST > > I'm not convinced we shall be doing it in the first place ;) And MUST > or even SHOULD look like a very strong requirement on all hosts just > to cover the very special case of sleeping devices. > +1 to not doing this, because some of those "sleeping devices" might also be routers (e.g., a phone that is sharing the wifi connection). Per spec, any packet to ff02::2 will reach and potentially wake up those devices. If these packets become common, the devices will be forced to choose between a) bad battery life and b) violating the spec (or at least nullifying its utility) by dropping the packets. --00000000000030c3d405acaebe96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:55 PM Jen Link= ova <furry13@gmail.com> wrot= e:
> 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility t= o deal with 1)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interva= l. Then we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOUL= D or MUST

I'm not convinced we shall be doing it in the first place ;) And MUST or even SHOULD look like a very strong requirement on all hosts just
to cover the very special case of sleeping devices.
+1 to not doing this, because some of those "sleeping dev= ices" might also be routers (e.g., a phone that is sharing the wifi co= nnection). Per spec, any packet to ff02::2 will reach and potentially wake = up those devices. If these packets become common, the devices will be force= d to choose between a) bad battery life and b) violating the spec (or at le= ast nullifying its utility) by dropping the packets.
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:32:03 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Lorenzo Colitti CC: Jen Linkova , V6 Ops List , 6man Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AQHWZ1aaeJpnUJSV20aes48tEhFRoKkr72qAgABfnoCAAcz6gIAABkFSgAFuC4CAAxPuQYABRZUAgACr+ACAAAY6ZA== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:32:03 +0000 Message-ID: <482DCDF9-852A-4506-BE74-1AC566C496C1@cisco.com> References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2a01:cb15:25e:cc00:5cf3:5bf6:45aa:4400] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d5303efb-8a88-441b-07bb-08d83ecc7b30 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3805: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: Warren Kumari , draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations References: Message-ID: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 05:10:09 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:37:00 -0000 Hello, Warren, Thanks a lot for your review! In-line.... On 10/8/20 14:17, Warren Kumari wrote: [....] > > Questions / comments: > 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may > be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > side." > I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few > readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, > and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but > does: > "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be > obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > side." work? Yes (modulo s/may be obtain/may obtain/) > 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add > anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / > questions. Good point. Will do. [I've removed grammatical issues where no further comments on my side were needed -- and where I will simply apply your suggested changes] > O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > prefix will not deprecated. > P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > prefix will not be deprecated. > C: Missing "be" Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a different paragraph) > Section 2: > O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document > exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document > are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default > parameters" or just drop it? One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol parameters and other factors"? Thanks a lot for the feedback! I will rev the doc asap. Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Aug 12 07:37:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 2D5AC3A12EE; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AD23A12EC; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:36:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A3GiJh7bz-Ke; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D08C13A12EA; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:2050:70d7:6aa2:63d2] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:1f7:2050:70d7:6aa2:63d2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B5CD283A1F; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: Warren Kumari , draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations References: Message-ID: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 05:10:09 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@go6.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, rbonica@juniper.net, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, rwilton@cisco.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200812143700.2D5AC3A12EE@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:37:00 -0000 Hello, Warren, Thanks a lot for your review! In-line.... On 10/8/20 14:17, Warren Kumari wrote: [....] > > Questions / comments: > 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may > be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > side." > I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few > readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, > and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but > does: > "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be > obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > side." work? Yes (modulo s/may be obtain/may obtain/) > 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add > anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / > questions. Good point. Will do. [I've removed grammatical issues where no further comments on my side were needed -- and where I will simply apply your suggested changes] > O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > prefix will not deprecated. > P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > prefix will not be deprecated. > C: Missing "be" Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a different paragraph) > Section 2: > O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document > exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document > are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default > parameters" or just drop it? One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol parameters and other factors"? Thanks a lot for the feedback! I will rev the doc asap. Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Aug 12 08:27:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDCF3A13AE; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrHTho3v0z5b; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa32.google.com (mail-vk1-xa32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F10703A13AA; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa32.google.com with SMTP id o2so589686vkn.9; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:27:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BJFEj8K+SDUYo/uVnwYEoQFh880sZEg2IGv5w27dx1o=; b=GuIDH+/IxlACp3VQrD0HNdKMeCAv1EOKs7UbJIAlUTxKOFEGYmzJ7L4v0KIqun5juR 6ZdBQvt658FbSB2DA+GtDZ6y0nFelKVESqIQwBnscZdKH1XYpDSel+GccXFCIOd43nGp wq3TpBA3t2m9C1QW6zT+wDSRQGIc5T/x57fvk2lYeWYzJCZv30TgKUMgp0mdPf4dUGBP 8ASJ9UVc+ooGrjYqcVX5cKGPlhycuewENBMijcyXdUczFRDaqM9O4sx9af+9FZRIR+pf 563hoYuXAH9gLsDVFptRmqBO7kKcnOhAbbET9fAiUU9C1SAPTa2u0dDHp+NBK8gtPQfD E1Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BJFEj8K+SDUYo/uVnwYEoQFh880sZEg2IGv5w27dx1o=; b=NmV2D9axp9lLKXyZaAOFt592sJXgR6961X8WCrD9j4Q9O698uwQjSiC60Vaub53qfc oW+CBBAdHecnLsQ525KXBAoMkHAEo6w7ru0fJMXFWI7B4P1eW13O1rBIiKwK7BWGKSNb 0ZD8ISLkpV3Tb+0JcE6nl+IIfRlx/D5b/R7ImJUMxeGEst4emeTrfFvw5sa7pjZY+fHH h75hn1R9R2IK8pcrQmUJX8oJNAulROn6dJ+6MSnNnMW7ZpSBM2SSzyrsaPfQCVK2rhUL tUatiUP4IPltd4Ym/HysXunmoIiWpwUfQlyqjO4UkTmiL09mSknp2Ouv6Y7qPC8aXAp4 kivg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53213IzqPG1Ha0ZVLpGc6AGUgr6bJIU6QGewECvN1GSj0xPXzz72 ppGKs17XOK9wM0Czqeu4xRmaDD/uBPn+IyEdTxsQAkyi6AQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz79/4nhewDnqqUoeQYKKZFCGKnt0LFnaPirD9W+N1jtgf4QkL3eGM1D5VHi1ZvgRLnQA1EaNPoDxNSgL/DcaU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:403:: with SMTP id e3mr6060657vkd.82.1597246035921; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96fa6d80137241dd9b57fcd871c8a897@huawei.com> <37e2a7110f6b423eba0303811913f533@huawei.com> <8B923F28-899B-4CE5-A3EB-B82E9E74A9B8@cisco.com> <482DCDF9-852A-4506-BE74-1AC566C496C1@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <482DCDF9-852A-4506-BE74-1AC566C496C1@cisco.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:27:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: 6man , Lorenzo Colitti , V6 Ops List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000097112505acafd218" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:27:19 -0000 --00000000000097112505acafd218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As these issues can get overwhelming complex as we dig into the weeds, I agree a series of small drafts to address these issues makes sense. Thanks Gyan On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:32 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Sleeping devices should have a helper that covers for them; the more > troubling case is that if a silent device, like this printer in the > corner. > > Not sleeping just sitting there and very sure that it will get packets fo= r > a very long time. As opposed to a phone that would fully benefit from > grand, that guy will not benefit at all after day one? Unless it renews t= he > binding. > > To Jen=E2=80=99s point, the host does not need to guess the lifetime in t= he BCE. > When something is needed we must add a protocol element to pass it, that= =E2=80=99s > what protocols do. > > Now I=E2=80=99d argue that all addresses should not get the same service = from the > router, and only the host k owe if the address should be short or long > lived. This is why the lifetime in of the binding in the router should be > requested by the host and granted by the router. This is nothing new, > mobile IP works exactly like that. > > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 12 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 16:10, Lorenzo Colitti 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> a =C3=A9crit : > > =EF=BB=BF > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:55 PM Jen Linkova wrote: > >> > 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility to deal with 1) >> > and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interval. Then we >> > can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOULD or MUST >> >> I'm not convinced we shall be doing it in the first place ;) And MUST >> or even SHOULD look like a very strong requirement on all hosts just >> to cover the very special case of sleeping devices. >> > > +1 to not doing this, because some of those "sleeping devices" might also > be routers (e.g., a phone that is sharing the wifi connection). Per spec, > any packet to ff02::2 will reach and potentially wake up those devices. I= f > these packets become common, the devices will be forced to choose between > a) bad battery life and b) violating the spec (or at least nullifying its > utility) by dropping the packets. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000097112505acafd218 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As these issues can get overwhelming compl= ex as we dig into the weeds, I agree a series of small drafts to address th= ese issues makes sense.

= Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan
<= div>
On= Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:32 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:
Sleeping devices should have a helper that covers for them; the more troubl= ing case is that if a silent device, like this printer in the corner.=C2=A0

Not sleeping just sitting there and very sure that it will get packets= for a very long time. As opposed to a phone that would fully benefit from = grand, that guy will not benefit at all after day one? Unless it renews the= binding.

To Jen=E2=80=99s point, the host does not need to guess the lifetime i= n the BCE. When something is needed we must add a protocol element to pass = it, that=E2=80=99s what protocols do.

Now I=E2=80=99d argue that all addresses should not get the same servi= ce from the router, and only the host k owe if the address should be short = or long lived. This is why the lifetime in of the binding in the router sho= uld be requested by the host and granted by the router. This is nothing new, mobile IP works exactly like that.


Regards,

Pascal

Le 12 ao=C3=BBt 2020 =C3=A0 16:10, Lorenzo Colitt= i <lorenzo=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

=EF=BB=BF
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:55 PM Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> w= rote:
> 2) I think MAY is too weak to rely on. One possibility to deal with 1)=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and 2) is to have an RA option that specifies the interva= l. Then we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 can make sending the NAs if the option is present a SHOUL= D or MUST

I'm not convinced we shall be doing it in the first place ;) And MUST or even SHOULD look like a very strong requirement on all hosts just
to cover the very special case of sleeping devices.

+1 to not doing this, because some of those "sleeping devices&quo= t; might also be routers (e.g., a phone that is sharing the wifi connection= ). Per spec, any packet to ff02::2 will reach and potentially wake up those= devices. If these packets become common, the devices will be forced to choose between a) bad battery life and b) vi= olating the spec (or at least nullifying its utility) by dropping the packe= ts.
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________
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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--
--00000000000097112505acafd218-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 09:22:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4988B3A13D6; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.318 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6UuH-xb-gBL; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-4.web-hosting.com (server217-4.web-hosting.com [198.54.116.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27FC73A13C1; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Sender: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender :Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Id7znSidjaPbYBBYxxCBWeARucx39UXVIfYbTZI9cKg=; b=ODySYAetkTQSrrIDEPCueT6TP5 ZEv6TG/OK2AzldYAfzgqOyRTiJjnp8h0hHjuWEAgXKfJRvG8s8gdwrBuzKL24d6uiZSyd78XlNqE0 Ljmi+QovzznskZ6+eTADl9c4zZHOYU8Aw8SpXdbGoYZHrerDJZ31LxhUUfknNJEyoKHNuSZjLZF/J kDs19rDI4oLoTeWcMcObZkfxCFozB5REs/AcQ1DgdA6H7Xxb+gPflcIxAsipWjTrj9l7A3pUXw/Kl uQvhM2pFaL7j6wk1Lgeh3jxWgxNYOsWbmCqoBe7NzfO6CCUiTpltvSDIOoB1hYd9Yw1FVDw6BZd67 aAy4NBgw==; Received: from cpe-172-250-225-198.socal.res.rr.com ([172.250.225.198]:64427 helo=[192.168.1.5]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1k5tWQ-003RLb-JW; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:22:43 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B09D018F-F823-4952-9FEC-AF57940396BA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:22:37 -0700 Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Ted Lemon , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Message-Id: <242449E8-D0EF-428B-9975-5CF7C3423C89@strayalpha.com> References: To: Vasilenko Eduard X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:22:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B09D018F-F823-4952-9FEC-AF57940396BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See rfc3619 Sections 5 and 6. Joe > On Aug 12, 2020, at 3:51 AM, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > This dispute is about: Should we assume that Multicast is the basic techno= logy available on any L2? Should we rely fundamental mechanisms on Multicast= ? --Apple-Mail-B09D018F-F823-4952-9FEC-AF57940396BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
See rfc3619 Sections 5 and 6.

Joe

On Aug 12, 2020, at 3:51 AM, Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi all,

This dispute is about: Should we assume that Multicast is the basic technology available on any L2? Should we rely fundamental mechanisms on Multicast?

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, IPv6 List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management Thread-Index: AdZwipzxSyA49jGGRsKhoVN1GRZp7wAIQhqAAAdmIqA= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:56:33 +0000 Message-ID: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> References: <242449E8-D0EF-428B-9975-5CF7C3423C89@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <242449E8-D0EF-428B-9975-5CF7C3423C89@strayalpha.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521fhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:56:39 -0000 --_000_54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521fhuaweicom_ Content-Type: 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(envelope-from ) id 1k5u4j-0044Pm-Pa; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:58:10 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6906B399-68FE-4C83-B340-854F14A37BDB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:58:05 -0700 Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Ted Lemon , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Message-Id: <8B672A3B-0917-46FE-B00C-13DCD7059F7A@strayalpha.com> References: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> To: Vasilenko Eduard X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:58:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-6906B399-68FE-4C83-B340-854F14A37BDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rfc3819 Sorry for the typo > On Aug 12, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi Joe, > I am not aware about any =E2=80=9CIntellectual Property Rights=E2=80=9D in= respect of discussed. > And I have not understood how =E2=80=9CEthernet Automatic Protection Switc= hing (Version 1)=E2=80=9D could help for Wireless. > I strongly suspect that you mistyped RFC number. > Eduard > From: Joe Touch [mailto:touch@strayalpha.com]=20 > Sent: 12 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 19:23 > To: Vasilenko Eduard > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Ted= Lemon ; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List > Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management > =20 > See rfc3619 Sections 5 and 6. > =20 > Joe >=20 >=20 > On Aug 12, 2020, at 3:51 AM, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >=20 > Hi all, > This dispute is about: Should we assume that Multicast is the basic techno= logy available on any L2? Should we rely fundamental mechanisms on Multicast= ? --Apple-Mail-6906B399-68FE-4C83-B340-854F14A37BDB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rfc3819

Sorry for the typo

=
On Aug 12, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Vasilenko Eduard <= vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> wrote:

= --Apple-Mail-6906B399-68FE-4C83-B340-854F14A37BDB-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 10:15:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74F73A1172; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StL47R3BHMVw; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC9303A1187; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4FE9619F4D6D2F26F51E; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:15:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) by lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:15:41 +0100 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.161) by msceml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.219.141.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 20:15:40 +0300 Received: from msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) by msceml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.219.141.161]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 20:15:40 +0300 From: Vasilenko Eduard To: Joe Touch CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Ted Lemon" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management Thread-Index: AdZwipzxSyA49jGGRsKhoVN1GRZp7wAIQhqAAAdmIqD//863gP//yc/w Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:15:40 +0000 Message-ID: <16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294@huawei.com> References: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> <8B672A3B-0917-46FE-B00C-13DCD7059F7A@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <8B672A3B-0917-46FE-B00C-13DCD7059F7A@strayalpha.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.204.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:15:45 -0000 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_3CB32232-EE66-423A-9905-7012AD4E5459" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3652.0.5.2.1\)) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:20:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294@huawei.com> Cc: Joe Touch , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List To: Vasilenko Eduard References: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> <8B672A3B-0917-46FE-B00C-13DCD7059F7A@strayalpha.com> <16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3652.0.5.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:20:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3CB32232-EE66-423A-9905-7012AD4E5459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Aug 12, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Vasilenko Eduard = wrote: > But multicast packet (without beam forming) could not penetrate the = wall in principle (common case for 5Ghz). 100% loss guarantied. This is a case for turning multicast into successive unicast. --Apple-Mail=_3CB32232-EE66-423A-9905-7012AD4E5459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Aug 12, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> wrote:
But multicast packet = (without beam forming) could not penetrate the wall in principle (common = case for 5Ghz). 100% loss guarantied.

This is a case for turning multicast into = successive unicast.


= --Apple-Mail=_3CB32232-EE66-423A-9905-7012AD4E5459-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 10:24:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C663A073D; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3-49mok1O3C; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B482E3A0744; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 07CHNdtn093764 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:23:40 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8] claimed to be crumpet.local To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List References: <54d926767ff14e6d98a034f525e5521f@huawei.com> <8B672A3B-0917-46FE-B00C-13DCD7059F7A@strayalpha.com> <16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294@huawei.com> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <63e37634-ceb3-4373-84ad-c77ac7c44823@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:23:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.25 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16fca7281aa143aeadc8ca985fa44294@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:24:06 -0000 Vasilenko Eduard wrote on 12/08/2020 18:15: > But multicast packet (without beam forming) could not penetrate the wall > in principle (common case for 5Ghz). 100% loss guarantied. wifi is an IEEE protocol, so maybe they'd be better people to talk to about this? Nick From nobody Wed Aug 12 10:26:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D0C3A0763; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:26:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4FJ9dP6CISHM; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-4.web-hosting.com (server217-4.web-hosting.com [198.54.116.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 907423A073D; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Sender: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender :Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=KGDPNrcrtWJkNAOu9PAmKdu+zoqSvdT3RCUp3luoVHI=; b=go3D59JA5UtyF0C3WESw7lXd1K FkInIa5pC6h9m2ItypnyIOwOKcXIkH6V1KnvdVT+rFULU5Pp1if4Mur6vIg5/Vq1X4eScTxoZknCp rlDgJGWoWXh9rBnZYCAn2Z2XkWBL/UCGKfY0zqRG/VSK3aVKy5UM4p0CEeccK1ldhKrc6HDL6N+v7 mH8HS8uuaJwyIC5j8wdiZpsn1hwNbWTAB5VlC/BDBiwRwpB5iED9CqoWbb71vlxIOeqykE/BcBPZc 3FbZgteB6cP22x8HhjTarVg/AZqjLtB7U/S6Nxdn6MkPBanjfU4O+K5UGhC0g9XXBHCYrozDVZAI1 G7mlQh6g==; Received: from cpe-172-250-225-198.socal.res.rr.com ([172.250.225.198]:64677 helo=[192.168.1.5]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1k5uVt-000Ebd-TO; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:26:14 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3D1EACB4-EC62-4BE8-903F-850C78BC53A4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: <8A5E629F-BBEE-489B-9EC4-DFAE09EFA58D@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:26:09 -0700 Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , IPv6 List Message-Id: <0289DDEC-596D-4B7C-B7A1-D81258798365@strayalpha.com> References: <8A5E629F-BBEE-489B-9EC4-DFAE09EFA58D@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:26:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3D1EACB4-EC62-4BE8-903F-850C78BC53A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That=E2=80=99s discussed in 3819.=20 > On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Aug 12, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >> But multicast packet (without beam forming) could not penetrate the wall i= n principle (common case for 5Ghz). 100% loss guarantied. >=20 > This is a case for turning multicast into successive unicast. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-3D1EACB4-EC62-4BE8-903F-850C78BC53A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That=E2=80=99s discussed i= n 3819. 

On Aug 12,= 2020, at 10:21 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFOn Aug 12, 2= 020, at 1:15 PM, Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> wrote:
But multicast packet (without beam forming) could not penetrate the wa= ll in principle (common case for 5Ghz). 100% loss guarantied.

=EF=BB=BF

Hi Joe,

I am not aware about any =E2=80=9CIntel= lectual Property Rights=E2=80=9D in respect of discussed.<= /p>

And I have not understood how =E2=80=9C= Ethernet Automatic Protection Switching (Version 1)=E2=80=9D could help for W= ireless.

I strongly suspect that you mistyped RFC= number.

Eduard

From: Joe Touch [mailto:touch@strayalph= a.com]
Sent: 12 =D0=B0=D0=B2=D0=B3=D1=83=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0 2020 =D0=B3. 19:2= 3
To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.o= rg>; Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List <ip= v6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Multicast problem in IPv6 address management

 

See rfc3619 Sections 5 and 6.

 

Joe

Hi all,

This dispute is about: Should we assume that Multicast= is the basic technology available on any L2? Should we rely fundamental mechanisms on Multicast?

This is a case for turning multic= ast into successive unicast.


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<9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:45:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:46:24 -0000 On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:36 AM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Hello, Warren, > > Thanks a lot for your review! In-line.... > > On 10/8/20 14:17, Warren Kumari wrote: > [....] > > > > Questions / comments: > > 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may > > be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > > side." > > I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few > > readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, > > and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but > > does: > > "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be > > obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > > side." work? > > Yes (modulo s/may be obtain/may obtain/) Thanks. > > > > > 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add > > anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / > > questions. > > Good point. Will do. > Thanks. > > [I've removed grammatical issues where no further comments on my side > were needed -- and where I will simply apply your suggested changes] > > > O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > > prefix will not deprecated. > > P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > > prefix will not be deprecated. > > C: Missing "be" > > Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a > different paragraph) > Oh, good catch. Yes, probably... mainly trying to avoid starting an unnecessary side thread on "why /64"?! etc. > > > > Section 2: > > O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document > > exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > > P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document > > are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > > C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default > > parameters" or just drop it? > > One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol > parameters and other factors"? WFM > > Thanks a lot for the feedback! I will rev the doc asap. Thank you very much! W > > Cheers, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Wed Aug 12 12:46:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 637AE3A0BA0; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0073A0985 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKVF_aIE32oQ for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5958C3A0BA8 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id d2so1810724lfj.1 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=klaR3tH3oLGaZddXt77fT5Pzsq+zci983sZdDGpsYWc=; b=bLbgtiyksDNj0ARufcH2jupTtwRdzUuCoeLJ2P+zvZ5abRqih7Q41i40yiBQwClceZ d5CMfXdFvvf4r/+TIUQBITEjIFO+yw1S0kM/UW0MYgce1PyuZRM6eEF1ld6F4qfIjy0F d5E+Nvefdlt4uA35fgsaN5eU2GiHxndL4YOhA1TkPUl7+WEAzBkvVxosiNpH/umJ+fA7 S66ITTqRg3nGem32n4Dx/I3Ci1WDCYSyYQA4DQuYdauTpEKn0IIYBFOuECelEGoX2Zfl 8H0iJQWhWhPQSJps0wz4JCDBNS8H2+TKtUkLw6CMqxI8gYN7zZvNwTWSIvCptLfQnRFu E+kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=klaR3tH3oLGaZddXt77fT5Pzsq+zci983sZdDGpsYWc=; b=kjJhYBtSj9qx0cYWrp8Xi1secx9A0ZORJSWEZAsH70Ck5AdkOLo7ChEGmH2E3aySuV IOumjkyRLAdAETcV0mkDAcB09enWg/xmeo3EKDWCOIwlP/raM6xqOiIxyNKpkfODVAAv ZvAHIG2Eept1JO3Ev72bGtoxquSm4XSVQSuJm20htAJB2pWYszPJWxTSxUBOoS+l/ULt eI2zH5QH+eZRQSDzbg8Dw1n7HVX4TxevZnyD6g/5mMt75sfRidxh10Drflx1ZQirmytg SnATZ2ymf28pqDTW/k4TMp17vU2V5NvcpGkB4r7j3mErgWogqcY1KwDfFV01hGGZSLAI dypw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531juHbdYESRbMZS9qSxzuUWoSeEYb3HMxiDOHYJtHIyg765tbvu mFyp0eW8t/8+fPnDRJnZjm+wSaXX7xCjRm6s28ofhXchoyw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSCY7Rj6a6apcvvdD1npzyQrN9ynwe5aNSRhpuu1fhJx4rQZNEnG0e7Y8udBSVt8cZypzhW7WL/styZ3NZOpM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6d1e:: with SMTP id i30mr482642lfc.104.1597261567035; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:45:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@go6.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, rbonica@juniper.net, rwilton@cisco.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200812194623.637AE3A0BA0@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:46:30 -0000 On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:36 AM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Hello, Warren, > > Thanks a lot for your review! In-line.... > > On 10/8/20 14:17, Warren Kumari wrote: > [....] > > > > Questions / comments: > > 1: "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may > > be leased (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > > side." > > I understand what this sentence is trying to say, but it took a few > > readings - I kept reading it that the CPE device itself may be leased, > > and then getting confused. I'm not quite sure how to fix it, but > > does: > > "In scenarios where the CPE router crashes and reboots, the CPE may be > > obtain (via DHCPv6-PD) a different prefix from the one previously > > leased, and therefore advertise (via SLAAC) the new prefix on the LAN > > side." work? > > Yes (modulo s/may be obtain/may obtain/) Thanks. > > > > > 2: "If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network..." - I suggest dropping the "/64" - it doesn't add > > anything to the sentence is is likely to just attract controversy / > > questions. > > Good point. Will do. > Thanks. > > [I've removed grammatical issues where no further comments on my side > were needed -- and where I will simply apply your suggested changes] > > > O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > > prefix will not deprecated. > > P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a > > particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get > > notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" > > prefix will not be deprecated. > > C: Missing "be" > > Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a > different paragraph) > Oh, good catch. Yes, probably... mainly trying to avoid starting an unnecessary side thread on "why /64"?! etc. > > > > Section 2: > > O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document > > exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > > P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document > > are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. > > C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default > > parameters" or just drop it? > > One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol > parameters and other factors"? WFM > > Thanks a lot for the feedback! I will rev the doc asap. Thank you very much! W > > Cheers, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Aug 13 01:01:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7533A0856; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=delong.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18zNImbnr0vM; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owen.delong.com (owen.delong.com [IPv6:2620:0:930::200:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEB73A0854; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2620::930:0:9ca7:1751:3bc3:5769] ([IPv6:2620:0:930:0:9ca7:1751:3bc3:5769]) (authenticated bits=0) by owen.delong.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 07CKmbLu3199604 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:34 -0700 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 owen.delong.com 07CKmbLu3199604 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=delong.com; s=mail; t=1597265374; bh=vZEHWHysPuI5sMYH0yTUT4exb4kX3tJq1R7uCIQJSXI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=CTzrkF3gOSbo829LVKWUogJpoPiewxoQ9rOSpIRAJfKcf0RIrZ+/dywp/OFc/CtX6 8x07ZsBknWZkEzJQKK28pO/1bc3GweACRvRPvTfVfbRLM11YxC8lRV6kq/TXN55NNj Y7JRzOSxCyqPFD9PUjxHgs71K0K+yzmBtH02pnbo= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Owen DeLong In-Reply-To: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:48:37 -0700 Cc: Warren Kumari , draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (owen.delong.com [IPv6:2620:0:930:0:0:0:200:2]); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:01:16 -0000 >> O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a >> particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get >> notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" >> prefix will not deprecated. >> P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a >> particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get >> notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" >> prefix will not be deprecated. >> C: Missing "be" >=20 > Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a = different paragraph) >=20 I know you didn=E2=80=99t ask me, but my vote would be yes. >=20 >=20 >> Section 2: >> O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document >> exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. >> P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document >> are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. >> C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default >> parameters" or just drop it? >=20 > One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol = parameters and other factors=E2=80=9D? I like this suggestion, personally. Owen From nobody Thu Aug 13 01:01:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 310DC3A0859; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7533A0856; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=delong.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18zNImbnr0vM; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owen.delong.com (owen.delong.com [IPv6:2620:0:930::200:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEB73A0854; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2620::930:0:9ca7:1751:3bc3:5769] ([IPv6:2620:0:930:0:9ca7:1751:3bc3:5769]) (authenticated bits=0) by owen.delong.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 07CKmbLu3199604 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:34 -0700 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 owen.delong.com 07CKmbLu3199604 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=delong.com; s=mail; t=1597265374; bh=vZEHWHysPuI5sMYH0yTUT4exb4kX3tJq1R7uCIQJSXI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=CTzrkF3gOSbo829LVKWUogJpoPiewxoQ9rOSpIRAJfKcf0RIrZ+/dywp/OFc/CtX6 8x07ZsBknWZkEzJQKK28pO/1bc3GweACRvRPvTfVfbRLM11YxC8lRV6kq/TXN55NNj Y7JRzOSxCyqPFD9PUjxHgs71K0K+yzmBtH02pnbo= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Owen DeLong In-Reply-To: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:48:37 -0700 Cc: Warren Kumari , draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9b68178a-a32a-0467-6685-34e1d97258dd@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (owen.delong.com [IPv6:2620:0:930:0:0:0:200:2]); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@go6.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, rbonica@juniper.net, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, rwilton@cisco.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200813080116.310DC3A0859@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:01:16 -0000 >> O: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a >> particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get >> notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" >> prefix will not deprecated. >> P: If such a push results in changing the /64 subnet configured on a >> particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get >> notified about the subnet change and their addresses from the "old" >> prefix will not be deprecated. >> C: Missing "be" >=20 > Should we also remove the "/64" here? (since you suggested that for a = different paragraph) >=20 I know you didn=E2=80=99t ask me, but my vote would be yes. >=20 >=20 >> Section 2: >> O: As noted in Section 1, the problem discussed in this document >> exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. >> P: As noted in Section 1, the problem*s* discussed in this document >> are exacerbated by a number of different parameters and behaviours. >> C: I don't really like "parameters" here - perhaps "default >> parameters" or just drop it? >=20 > One option is to fix it as "... by the default values of some protocol = parameters and other factors=E2=80=9D? I like this suggestion, personally. Owen From nobody Thu Aug 13 16:23:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8583A0A83; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:23:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, Jordi Palet Martinez , iesg-secretary@ietf.org, jordi.palet@theipv6company.com Message-ID: <159736100422.2650.1039673536521835502@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:23:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 23:23:24 -0000 Fred Baker has requested publication of draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-03 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the V6OPS working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init/ From nobody Mon Aug 17 02:39:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFDA3A1459; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=alR/vIPC; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=oSsIetQN Received: from 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07:08:58 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AdZv/nPAXPbo98BsTRy+/vxuNZBYcwAAtAeAAR1NU+AACiuXIA== Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:08:58 +0000 Message-ID: <258750d2b12c423291bf4a3e3ab715f6@boeing.com> References: <2EF1FEDD-D25E-4A4E-A2DF-F40F5794CFE7@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: BD2B5F8BF2651EE2BBA6037B768CC0BAE2F8F4F43D09A65CD8DF8349172060C92000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_258750d2b12c423291bf4a3e3ab715f6boeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 11111111 X-TM-AS-SMTP: 1.0 Y2x0LW1ic291dC0wMS5tYnMuYm9laW5nLm5ldA== RnJlZC5MLlRlbXBsaW5AYm9laW5nLmNvbQ== X-TM-AS-ERS: 144.115.66.114-127.0.0.32 x-imss-email-tag-status: notag x-imss-email-tag-ndr: notndr x-imss-email-tag-format1: unknown 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(xch16-07-11.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.113]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/8.15.2/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTPS id 07HF1hYN005624 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 17 Aug 2020 11:01:43 -0400 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.2044.4; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:01:42 -0700 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::1522:f068:5766:53b5%2]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:01:42 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: IPv6 List , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Thread-Index: AdZv/nPAXPbo98BsTRy+/vxuNZBYcwAAtAeAAR1NU+AACiuXIAABUHVFAABQysA= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:01:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] AD review of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 20:08:27 -0000 Hi there authors and WG, Thank you for this document - it is clear, useful, and addresses a real issue... I do have some nits that I'd like addressed before starting IETF LC... O: The lifetime values of prefixes advertised on the LAN-side via SLAAC must be dynamically updated (rather than static values), since otherwise the advertised lifetimes would eventually span past the DHCPv6-PD lifetimes. P: The lifetime values of prefixes advertised on the LAN-side via SLAAC must be dynamically updated (rather than static values), otherwise the advertised lifetimes would eventually span past the DHCPv6-PD lifetimes. C: Dropped 'since' - unnecessary and makes the sentence harder to parse. O: This document RECOMMENDS that CE router set the Router P: This document RECOMMENDS that CE routers set the Router O: The Valid Lifetime and Preferred Lifetime of PIOs have direct impact on three different aspect P: The Valid Lifetime and Preferred Lifetime of PIOs have A direct impact on three different aspects (x2) O: for at least the WAN-side DHCPv6-PD valid-lifetime, or for period of ND_VALID_LIMIT P: for at least the WAN-side DHCPv6-PD valid-lifetime, or for A period of ND_VALID_LIMIT (Multiple occurrences) O: Initiate sending Reconfigure messages (if possible - i.e., client requests Reconfigure support and the CE Router offers it) to the those clients with address assignments P: Initiate sending Reconfigure messages (if possible - i.e., client requests Reconfigure support and the CE Router offers it) to those clients with address assignments C: Extra 'the' O: However, there are a number of scenarios that may lead to the so-called "flash-renumbering" events, where the prefix being employed on a network suddenly becomes invalid and replaced by a new prefix [I-D.ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum]. P: However, a number of scenarios may lead to the so-called "flash-renumbering" events, where the prefix being employed on a network suddenly becomes invalid and replaced by a new prefix [I-D.ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum]. C: Readability. O: One of such scenarios is that in which a DHCPv6 server employs dynamic prefixes, and the Customer Edge Router crashes and reboots. P: One such scenario is when a DHCPv6 server employs dynamic prefixes and the Customer Edge Router crashes and reboots. O: ... comments that has benefited his protocol-related work. P: ... comments that have benefited his protocol-related work. ---- Please SHOUT LOUDLY once you've had a chance to address these -- I'd like to kick off the IETF LC for this and and draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum at the same time... W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Aug 20 15:14:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9701F3A1447 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-Brb72ZVmC1 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603413A1442 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v9so3812314ljk.6 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:14:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A85NgHohQDpLIGJu+RBigg5pLOJNnJgsLh7c634AwsQ=; b=1FBTEJkxHdmf177utmCLvKAHZujHm/CWeueVJmg+aMKo5BMTB3Dm7h5SA71XKLJqom iBU827IiARus0t4sKSa9meoE1Jk5EO45oTWPg3/CcGvxf3L3IGYDzLZEdq30nNpMK2He x3Wnih3wj1Evo8Jh+VjNqKJ/eZuRIOov2S/9GRLw07cDDS+Jsv2QaO7J8GKCc+6edcev yZPI4fTs6Eq1MkmgqoTxIaxScalCzu2Y/JL8NHO23nvZDLzb47ku3ZjsGrzsAoPyxkKV 4L+kCj57C5ibQtA+cP/yr+FZyIFw6zs7qpbNaTrLYK9VWuDYUQnhtb00oCjj3G3GonYf rV/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A85NgHohQDpLIGJu+RBigg5pLOJNnJgsLh7c634AwsQ=; b=lgkZRIzOqD3Ky6DkP4Nqjf4NMNhF4A0wir13xhvn9P2L9ioD9J1q5NC2pXxQjOIwX8 dKUdAJr9F67HIFmhsIM/LPFrL8WQ0jd/FEztnYxxOaIpwCyS9/lpc/2tlMax3lEkgmGn gTLwJB4mNQie0iGmCPBd6iqhkHPLBmciiDDV6MSLXojcZ7EjvIvlgtG7/sKFweGE7KoF jRtFPLA3dQ6K/ibNIeyVaOzygyVdNcbXcKQ7ZOcBYJ9agNX4jGa4Q4fBX/shK56lislk pft204T0X2DN/VTmLMmuF701mzCaNDq0o7UFFGz6LaymNCclwScg26rgXfZZ9Of0DUnS 79BQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nKN2pfCjSIVm12Fg+te6wBZkgfoDapE3tmezFJNYd6hJ5gSkF mR1Lcgn78u9U1U0X81FAZWhUWoPaVEEcVHJcrP2UZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzFbhF5W38B4FFeaqPp5nPVZOpWBpA+j/KtI6L+QsOtRzF+7vDenlRu4pI85kiA6j+L+9dTM0vAItV1OnlSTiI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a28d:: with SMTP id k13mr45566lja.11.1597961638014; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:13:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:13:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] AD review of draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 22:14:04 -0000 Hi there authors, and WG, Thank you very much for this document -- as you probably know, I already think it is an important and useful one. As a result of the recent discussion at the plenary, I'm being especially diligent (nit-picky?) with editorial stuff before starting IETF LC, and so ran this through a spell and grammar check. Be ye not afraid, the below are all nits, and should be easy and fast to address... Please SHOUT LOUDLY once you've had a chance to address them and I'll kick off LC. Thanks again, W O: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect the Internet connectivity and/or the captive portals presence on the network. P: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect the Internet connectivity and/or the presence of a captive portal on the network. O: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device link-local address (if the device has been performing the address resolution for the router LLA) but there are no entries for the device GUA. P: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device link-local address (if the device has been performing the address resolution for the router LLA), but there are no entries for the device GUA. O: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel it would consider all but one of them failed. P: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel, it would consider all but one of them failed. O: This scenario illustrates the problem happening when the device connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long enough for the device address to be removed from the router's neighbor cache. However the same sequence of events happen when the host starts using a new GUA ... P: This scenario illustrates the problem occurring when the device connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long enough for the device address to be removed from the router's neighbor cache. However, the same sequence of events happen when the host starts using a new GUA ... O: experience and contributing to negative perception of IPv6-only P: experience and contributing to A negative perception of IPv6-only O: This document discusses operational implications of P: This document discusses the operational implications of O: RA: outer Advertisement, [RFC4861]. P: RA: Router Advertisement, [RFC4861]. O: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by the time the first packet for that address is received by the router. P: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by the time the router receives the first packet for that address. O: o In topologies with multiple first hop routers the cache P: o In topologies with multiple first-hop routers the cache O: MUST be compatible with the recomendations provided P: MUST be compatible with the recommendations provided C: typo in recommendations O: In summary the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: P: In summary, the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: O: Administrators could enable creating neighbor discovery cache entries based P: Administrators could enable the creation of neighbor discovery cache entries based O: if FCFS SAVI is implemeneted on the network infrastructure. P: if FCFS SAVI is implemented on the network infrastructure. O: In some cases unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. P: In some cases, unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. O: However this approach can not be used if the GUA P: However, this approach can not be used if the GUA O: state: the section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly P: state: section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly O: If no entry exists the router P: If no entry exists, the router O: However this approach P: However, this approach O: In that case the host SHOULD ... P: In that case, the host SHOULD ... O: When a router receives a transit packet it might check the presence P: When a router receives a transit packet, it might check the presence -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Aug 20 17:31:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1ED3A14C9; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:30:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <159796985712.30614.14349780958769876251@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:30:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 00:30:57 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Neighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers: Operational Considerations Author : Jen Linkova Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-08-20 Abstract: Neighbor Discovery (RFC4861) is used by IPv6 nodes to determine the link-layer addresses of neighboring nodes as well as to discover and maintain reachability information. This document discusses how the neighbor discovery state machine on a first-hop router is causing user-visible connectivity issues when a new (not being seen on the network before) IPv6 address is being used. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 20 17:36:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ACC3A14D7; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbJOBX9i7Mh7; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05353A14D6; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id d27so192176qtg.4; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:36:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BIuNgfHl4C8IfVOI7zmkRqm/0O4tGOuT0Tkmsbb1nv4=; b=D1qIeGpKeLe/GQtDMy2/NA7x6WW1tWal4gFQwGT9PcPZs+4X4h9HrOF/E5wvL2fFQy 5eOy8eeIkBR8zOd0nWkNrNW+qPRXm5IoEZEB1dufB9vRBIC+jtsan7q/kM+gNKdClZbR U+rYXJa7F7r4VEZkRC16npT+8koBdFweLrh7SToX0ijtJ+gZRm7ju+y9olUOmTEcKmIS e2Z4rXjaeVo4XC2YGJ8ERiGXyNDLppMgaVBYle6wYxaejopIui5vCKFbkFIVjTm7jKSO YAUDblwdics4no5nEa/zvMovh6d3Fr9wEcxoS46FX60ERjLYdJPkgZ3ZkGRkrj3Zj7Ur VYPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BIuNgfHl4C8IfVOI7zmkRqm/0O4tGOuT0Tkmsbb1nv4=; b=SAbiIITjn90Q6CDTpgd+IoxhnZZHN4mMsTCxhy44otChgiUjhpi7foV9ElzuEZdJdg OVRtpfIW+TT+AQo9FuxYb/+qbOom6oYkwYUi9S16ERzH6QcvHbeRmgHJnj+8P3jnbbN9 GB3Qd67eLsfyjWtsYZSdDRhlCfuspx9PCALVWonWOSUqKl4PvpU1iYwtieWVNz0qw8Yp ByhVydyQbx9zamSar7fWb6+Vv6D/Stw7yD0UTLPjVbL8WGJooyg6Q0RuSITtaPm9Ktvg Z27hVn9NeUYf70eDV0eGxtf8H+DMVlV2OSE6maLqOPtOMK/Hhumeq0ADPvejoY8+F5M8 V9Ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322goxNUIyeSCUUwjIbW+PFp/t/0+Zo+PIfTlYKUij8OGRrvfuE cCBxN/48bDHQfySu7u9SspXwbIVk+FhMihQBckE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYy/WWna3OA8AnxqiEzD8vB/pHXQcQu68UyF3DltcvcEmdOYiBOKjt0XxkBxCSF52ipPOyu6yd+eO+nlYnIqU= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:ec7:: with SMTP id w7mr481548qti.118.1597970209828; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:36:38 +1000 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD review of draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 00:36:53 -0000 Hi Warren, Thanks for your review - sorry for not fixing typos prior to sending the document your way, the lesson learned. I've just submitted -04 to address your comments. One more change was made: the text in Section 2.2 which describes the overview of the proposed changes to RFC4862 was updated to reflect what the GRAND draft is currently saying. Basically, the proposed changes are applied not to hosts but to nodes and not just to GUA but to all addresses. The diff fragment: 264c265 < Hosts SHOULD send at least one unsolicited NA packet with the Override flag cleared to all-routers multicast address (ff02::2) as soon as one of the following events happens: --- > A node SHOULD send up to MAX_NEIGHBOR_ADVERTISEMENT unsolicited NA packet with the Override flag cleared to all-routers multicast address (ff02::2) as soon as one of the following events happens: 267c268 < (if Optimistic DAD is used): a new Optimistic GUA is assigned to the host interface. --- > (if Optimistic DAD is used): a new Optimistic address is assigned to the node interface. 270c271 < (if Optimistic DAD is not used): a GUA changes the state from tentative to preferred. --- > (if Optimistic DAD is not used): an address changes the state from tentative to preferred. On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:14 AM Warren Kumari wrote: > > Hi there authors, and WG, > > Thank you very much for this document -- as you probably know, I > already think it is an important and useful one. > > As a result of the recent discussion at the plenary, I'm being > especially diligent (nit-picky?) with editorial stuff before starting > IETF LC, and so ran this through a spell and grammar check. Be ye not > afraid, the below are all nits, and should be easy and fast to > address... > > Please SHOUT LOUDLY once you've had a chance to address them and I'll > kick off LC. > > Thanks again, > W > > > > O: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect > the Internet connectivity and/or the captive portals presence on the > network. > P: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect > the Internet connectivity and/or the presence of a captive portal on > the network. > > O: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device > link-local address (if the device has been performing the address > resolution for the router LLA) but there are no entries for the device > GUA. > P: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device > link-local address (if the device has been performing the address > resolution for the router LLA), but there are no entries for the > device GUA. > > O: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel it would consider > all but one of them failed. > P: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel, it would > consider all but one of them failed. > > O: This scenario illustrates the problem happening when the device > connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long > enough for the device address to be removed from the router's > neighbor cache. However the same sequence of events happen > when the host starts using a new GUA ... > P: This scenario illustrates the problem occurring when the device > connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long > enough for the device address to be removed from the router's > neighbor cache. However, the same sequence of events happen > when the host starts using a new GUA ... > > O: experience and contributing to negative perception of IPv6-only > P: experience and contributing to A negative perception of IPv6-only > > O: This document discusses operational implications of > P: This document discusses the operational implications of > > O: RA: outer Advertisement, [RFC4861]. > P: RA: Router Advertisement, [RFC4861]. > > O: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery > mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by > the time the first packet for that address is received by the router. > > P: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery > mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by > the time the router receives the first packet for that address. > > > O: o In topologies with multiple first hop routers the cache > P: o In topologies with multiple first-hop routers the cache > > O: MUST be compatible with the recomendations provided > P: MUST be compatible with the recommendations provided > C: typo in recommendations > > O: In summary the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: > P: In summary, the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: > > O: Administrators could enable creating neighbor discovery cache entries based > P: Administrators could enable the creation of neighbor discovery > cache entries based > > O: if FCFS SAVI is implemeneted on the network infrastructure. > P: if FCFS SAVI is implemented on the network infrastructure. > > O: In some cases unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. > P: In some cases, unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. > > O: However this approach can not be used if the GUA > P: However, this approach can not be used if the GUA > > O: state: the section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly > P: state: section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly > > O: If no entry exists the router > P: If no entry exists, the router > > O: However this approach > P: However, this approach > > O: In that case the host SHOULD ... > P: In that case, the host SHOULD ... > > O: When a router receives a transit packet it might check the presence > P: When a router receives a transit packet, it might check the presence > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Fri Aug 21 07:51:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CA63A0A41 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:51:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.268 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.268 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wViUnQ28pGY for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AADE3A0A3F for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE13719F5B0 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:51:44 +0200 (CEST) To: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <159796089982.22224.5269784632084814930@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <1e242304-1187-3e66-a75a-c96e03b499ae@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:51:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159796089982.22224.5269784632084814930@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 and webex links (was: Formal IESG Teleconference WebEx and Dial-in Information: 27 August 2020) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 14:51:49 -0000 Hi, excuse me for posting out of the blue on this mail about a meeting announcement. There are many great things in this announcement, including the use of city names for time zones, the observer capability for IESG and the free trial of webex. There is also a funny thing: all webex.com URLs are clickable on IPv6, but the ietf.webex.com is not. By 'IPv6' I mean my client computer Windows has only one interface Ethernet and only IPv6 box is checked (the IPv4 is unchecked in the Properties). I suspect this impossibility to click on IPv6 on ietf.webex.com is so because browsing the web on webex.com is fine on IPv6, but joining a meeting on IPv6 is not ok. The idea would be to put them all on IPv6. Alex Le 21/08/2020 à 00:01, IESG Secretary a écrit : > As previously announced [1], all members of the community are welcome > to attend formal IESG telechats as observers. Observers are not > invited to participate in the discussion. > > The next formal IESG telechat will be held on Thursday, August 27, > 2020 at 07:00 PT (14:00 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at > the bottom of this message. > > The agenda for the upcoming telechat can be found at > > > A calendar of upcoming public telechats can be downloaded or > subscribed to at: > https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_egdabaf39ch5v8a13dt39mvee4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics > > > > Topic: IESG Formal Telechat Date: August 27, 2020 Time: 07:00 PT (San > Francisco, UTC-07:00) 09:00 CT 10:00 ET 14:00 UTC 15:00 United > Kingdom (GMT) 16:00 Germany, France, Belgium, Switzerland (CET) 17:00 > Finland (EET) 00:00 (next day) (Queensland) Australia (AEST) > > ------------------------------------------------------- JOIN WEBEX > MEETING > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m38beb3706c7e5a24dd749a50d7e87dfd > > Meeting number: 642 944 708 > Meeting password: 1234 > > > JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access > code: 642 987 400 > ------------------------------------------------------- To join the > audio conference using Skype > ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Bring up > your Skype application. 2. Bring up your browser, and go to the > WebEx URL. 3. Enter your name and email address. 4. Close the WebEx > window prompting for a phone number. 5. Select the "info" tab at the > top of the WebEx browser page. 6. Go to Skype, and dial the U.S. > Toll-Free number from the meeting announcement. 7. Click on the > DialPad tab on the Skype window. 8. Use the virtual keypad to enter > the meeting number followed by #. 9. Use the virtual keypad to enter > your attendee ID followed by #. > > The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media > files requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media > files in the meeting, please check whether you have the players > installed on your computer by going to > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/ systemdiagnosis.php. > > Sign up for a free trial of WebEx > http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial > > http://www.webex.com > > CCP:+14087926300x960506070# > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows > audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed > during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you > automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to > the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to > the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note > that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of > litigation. > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/Eackc8-MgJw8IbdquLuPlcoDZpo > > _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce > mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > From nobody Fri Aug 21 11:50:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD813A105E for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IPLzsqqNpymS for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74B9C3A1065 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id j15so1400348lfg.7 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4f8ZOJFmDDXcKwbMabA1jn5vUhdsaU7nDt3UUeNzE5s=; b=J/5eHEWKp9NnD77MP1fgy/OzcQQ/LTJBEjZuo2Kc3SLiScaNra908CmIQOSe7BnuWX MdFXCySqBvCYMdUlmWonkDuAabcLt0XgI0WuvRzO/6SmqqU7lMnNxYfXt5a55D+fXSca ljqVha7IcTQOBVr1jqpMw2LA5friFiSUp0xSZsdxzMDqRtEeYA8+Qx8lpaEniChrvigM IlfYO3cHpuM7VMon6RhL5IQMwBI870crIOw38ATlSTertgcRte8M7IMJ+cjKwKFVJQY7 Js/cibOeen6zLtsI3Rum1TT5glsabBvsQbgUQC/pU0cztsWLCUx8pqvXzN2zBNNaWFlT rYZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4f8ZOJFmDDXcKwbMabA1jn5vUhdsaU7nDt3UUeNzE5s=; b=aN8fu/smz7xpYzVVtMqO2cJNuz+yQuy0ux+XIQgi7Xf+CfqDDwWZ+iq68ytS/p8Ibl XVFA8o9hoq1PgHAwwCOyyvSE4OboWc7E3YrjOA7yM81A8OwGJ2YajfFfGtFxnLB5ii7f UKJYSrNNrtJZJB3gpwxPYtDUNHYXpuLL/95LeWIavaUOAeZjNxeJc9QXA/mWUHJQJMnX S4qckAXd4GMrNsaX14Y0/gOk0/5NUl/3+aNi2P8cS+DBuLy6YWwYFFs24A5TaIQdqFjd 4YdE6AWzBAaBttXITGjafEBl504Bu2N4dhQv3M6pKHrHP+ccNYHiSF4/o1An/abyVhzh i5/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OI4+0+SwjmQl2JOyXxN9h/yMNG7iNZ9NThlVnSHhNE0StsSqk J9x7XsjX7n8OpaNL+WyeVewmDf6LW5TvJBXXfezmVA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1XKH/lEJumC+U04OAF6T9Fox3bdZTmtlAd6+J8qFALEffu0i5GOc5Eq+aOrPDpI8aimPJoYt6hTBuT/ygitw= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c2a:: with SMTP id u10mr1846350lfq.66.1598035768117; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 14:48:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jen Linkova Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD review of draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:50:15 -0000 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:36 PM Jen Linkova wrote: > > Hi Warren, > > Thanks for your review - sorry for not fixing typos prior to sending > the document your way, the lesson learned. No worries, typos have an amazing ability to evade spell-checkers; I once managed to get "DNS revolvers" through AUTH48 - it was only when making a last minute change to the acknowledgements section that someone noticed it... and it still makes me sad that we did... IETF LC has been requested; thank you for so quickly addressing the comments... W > I've just submitted -04 to address your comments. One more change was > made: the text in Section 2.2 which describes the overview of the > proposed changes to RFC4862 was updated to reflect what the GRAND > draft is currently saying. Basically, the proposed changes are applied > not to hosts but to nodes and not just to GUA but to all addresses. > The diff fragment: > > 264c265 > < Hosts SHOULD send at least one unsolicited NA packet with the > Override flag cleared to all-routers multicast address (ff02::2) as > soon as one of the following events happens: > --- > > A node SHOULD send up to MAX_NEIGHBOR_ADVERTISEMENT unsolicited NA packet with the Override flag cleared to all-routers multicast address (ff02::2) as soon as one of the following events happens: > 267c268 > < (if Optimistic > DAD is used): a new Optimistic GUA is assigned to the host interface. > --- > > (if Optimistic DAD is used): a new Optimistic address is assigned to the node interface. > 270c271 > < (if Optimistic > DAD is not used): a GUA changes the state from tentative to preferred. > --- > > (if Optimistic DAD is not used): an address changes the state from tentative to preferred. > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:14 AM Warren Kumari wrote: > > > > Hi there authors, and WG, > > > > Thank you very much for this document -- as you probably know, I > > already think it is an important and useful one. > > > > As a result of the recent discussion at the plenary, I'm being > > especially diligent (nit-picky?) with editorial stuff before starting > > IETF LC, and so ran this through a spell and grammar check. Be ye not > > afraid, the below are all nits, and should be easy and fast to > > address... > > > > Please SHOUT LOUDLY once you've had a chance to address them and I'll > > kick off LC. > > > > Thanks again, > > W > > > > > > > > O: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect > > the Internet connectivity and/or the captive portals presence on the > > network. > > P: A very common use case is a mobile device sending probes to detect > > the Internet connectivity and/or the presence of a captive portal on > > the network. > > > > O: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device > > link-local address (if the device has been performing the address > > resolution for the router LLA) but there are no entries for the device > > GUA. > > P: The router ND cache, however, might contain an entry for the device > > link-local address (if the device has been performing the address > > resolution for the router LLA), but there are no entries for the > > device GUA. > > > > O: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel it would consider > > all but one of them failed. > > P: 4. If the host sends multiple probes in parallel, it would > > consider all but one of them failed. > > > > O: This scenario illustrates the problem happening when the device > > connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long > > enough for the device address to be removed from the router's > > neighbor cache. However the same sequence of events happen > > when the host starts using a new GUA ... > > P: This scenario illustrates the problem occurring when the device > > connects to the network for the first time or after a timeout long > > enough for the device address to be removed from the router's > > neighbor cache. However, the same sequence of events happen > > when the host starts using a new GUA ... > > > > O: experience and contributing to negative perception of IPv6-only > > P: experience and contributing to A negative perception of IPv6-only > > > > O: This document discusses operational implications of > > P: This document discusses the operational implications of > > > > O: RA: outer Advertisement, [RFC4861]. > > P: RA: Router Advertisement, [RFC4861]. > > > > O: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery > > mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by > > the time the first packet for that address is received by the router. > > > > P: It would be highly desirable to improve the Neighbor Discovery > > mechanics so routers have a usable cache entry for a host address by > > the time the router receives the first packet for that address. > > > > > > O: o In topologies with multiple first hop routers the cache > > P: o In topologies with multiple first-hop routers the cache > > > > O: MUST be compatible with the recomendations provided > > P: MUST be compatible with the recommendations provided > > C: typo in recommendations > > > > O: In summary the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: > > P: In summary, the following changes to [RFC4861] are suggested: > > > > O: Administrators could enable creating neighbor discovery cache entries based > > P: Administrators could enable the creation of neighbor discovery > > cache entries based > > > > O: if FCFS SAVI is implemeneted on the network infrastructure. > > P: if FCFS SAVI is implemented on the network infrastructure. > > > > O: In some cases unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. > > P: In some cases, unsolicited NAs might not even reach the routers. > > > > O: However this approach can not be used if the GUA > > P: However, this approach can not be used if the GUA > > > > O: state: the section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly > > P: state: section 2.2 of [RFC4429] explicitly > > > > O: If no entry exists the router > > P: If no entry exists, the router > > > > O: However this approach > > P: However, this approach > > > > O: In that case the host SHOULD ... > > P: In that case, the host SHOULD ... > > > > O: When a router receives a transit packet it might check the presence > > P: When a router receives a transit packet, it might check the presence > > > > -- > > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > > idea in the first place. > > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > > of pants. > > ---maf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Fri Aug 21 12:57:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB3B3A114F; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:57:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: v6ops@ietf.org, jordi.palet@theipv6company.com, draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, Jordi Palet Martinez Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159803983618.30012.1264068045505912079@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:57:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Last Call: (Neighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers: Operational Considerations) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:57:17 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IPv6 Operations WG (v6ops) to consider the following document: - 'Neighbor Cache Entries on First-Hop Routers: Operational Considerations' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-09-04. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract Neighbor Discovery (RFC4861) is used by IPv6 nodes to determine the link-layer addresses of neighboring nodes as well as to discover and maintain reachability information. This document discusses how the neighbor discovery state machine on a first-hop router is causing user-visible connectivity issues when a new (not being seen on the network before) IPv6 address is being used. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Tue Aug 25 02:23:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CC23A0BCB; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 02:23:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <159834739029.14705.6478195775823703090@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 02:23:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum-04.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:23:10 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Improving the Reaction of Customer Edge Routers to Renumbering Events Authors : Fernando Gont Jan Zorz Richard Patterson Bernie Volz Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum-04.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2020-08-25 Abstract: In scenarios where network configuration information becomes invalid without any explicit signaling of that condition (such as when a Customer Edge Router crashes and reboots without knowledge of the previously-employed configuration information), hosts on the local network will continue using stale network configuration information for an unacceptably long period of time, thus resulting in connectivity problems. This document specifies improvements to Customer Edge Routers that help mitigate the aforementioned problem for typical residential and small office scenarios. This document updates RFC7084. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 25 23:58:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F7C3A0D6A; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:58:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <159842512947.20331.16995657246566584681@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:58:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 06:58:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Reaction of Stateless Address Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) to Flash- Renumbering Events Authors : Fernando Gont Jan Zorz Richard Patterson Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-08-25 Abstract: In scenarios where network configuration information related to IPv6 prefixes becomes invalid without any explicit signaling of that condition (such as when a CPE crashes and reboots without knowledge of the previously-employed prefixes), nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long time, thus resulting in connectivity problems. This document documents this issue and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. Additionally, it highlights areas where further work may be needed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 25 23:58:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7353A0E94; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:58:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: , "Owen DeLong" , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159842512962.20331.8352294148131637236@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:58:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] New Version Notification - draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 06:58:50 -0000 A new version (-03) has been submitted for draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03.txt The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum/ Diff from previous version: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org. IETF Secretariat. From nobody Wed Aug 26 03:40:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854433A0835; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tpw8DNIbApYI; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59A803A08E5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:965:9d59:45f9:db60:7ba8] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:965:9d59:45f9:db60:7ba8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5EB52283B86; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:40:37 +0000 (UTC) To: Warren Kumari , draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations References: From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:11:08 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] AD review of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:40:46 -0000 Hi, Warren, Thanks so much for your comments! In-line.... On 18/8/20 17:07, Warren Kumari wrote: [....] > > Please SHOUT LOUDLY once you've had a chance to address these -- I'd > like to kick off the IETF LC for this and and > draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum at the same time... DONE! :-) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Aug 26 13:41:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE343A0BCC; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:41:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "DraftTracker Mail System" To: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, owen@delong.com, Owen DeLong X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159847447737.1893.4802815389587842282@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:41:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Last Call: X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:41:24 -0000 Last Call Request has been submitted for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum/ From nobody Wed Aug 26 14:09:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89FA3A052C; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: owen@delong.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159847615373.26262.13317738721137582655@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:09:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Last Call: (Improving the Reaction of Customer Edge Routers to Renumbering Events) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 21:09:14 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IPv6 Operations WG (v6ops) to consider the following document: - 'Improving the Reaction of Customer Edge Routers to Renumbering Events' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-09-09. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract In scenarios where network configuration information becomes invalid without any explicit signaling of that condition (such as when a Customer Edge Router crashes and reboots without knowledge of the previously-employed configuration information), hosts on the local network will continue using stale network configuration information for an unacceptably long period of time, thus resulting in connectivity problems. This document specifies improvements to Customer Edge Routers that help mitigate the aforementioned problem for typical residential and small office scenarios. This document updates RFC7084. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum/ NOTE: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum and draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum are closely related and should be reviewed together. No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Wed Aug 26 14:11:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AA53A0544; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: owen@delong.com, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum@ietf.org, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159847628790.1416.2337364199267794670@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:11:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Last Call: (Reaction of Stateless Address Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) to Flash- Renumbering Events) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 21:11:28 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IPv6 Operations WG (v6ops) to consider the following document: - 'Reaction of Stateless Address Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) to Flash- Renumbering Events' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-09-09. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract In scenarios where network configuration information related to IPv6 prefixes becomes invalid without any explicit signaling of that condition (such as when a CPE crashes and reboots without knowledge of the previously-employed prefixes), nodes on the local network will continue using stale prefixes for an unacceptably long time, thus resulting in connectivity problems. This document documents this issue and discusses operational workarounds that may help to improve network robustness. Additionally, it highlights areas where further work may be needed. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum/ NOTE: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-slaac-renum and draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum are closely related and should be reviewed together. No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Sun Aug 30 18:14:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7003A0C0E; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dale Worley via Datatracker To: Cc: last-call@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159883647280.7294.15168668243468397592@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Dale Worley Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 01:14:33 -0000 Reviewer: Dale Worley Review result: Ready with Nits I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 Reviewer: Dale R. Worley Review Date: IETF LC End Date: 2020-09-09 IESG Telechat date: [not set] Summary: This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be fixed before publication. Overall, the draft is fine, but there are various places where the wording could be amplified or improved to make matters clearer to the less-well-prepared reader (like me). Minor issues: There is one technical aspect that doesn't seem to be addressed explicitly: Given that a router should never advertise a prefix via SLAAC that extends beyond the lease time it has received via DHCP, even if the router is restarted and it receives a new prefix via DHCP, the old prefix remains delegated to the network for the remainder of its lease time, and in a way, it remains *valid* for the hosts to use addresses derived from the old prefix for the remainder of the lifetime they received from SLAAC. The existence of this document shows that such usage does not work well, but perhaps there is some place early in the discussion where it can be made clear that validity is not sufficient in practice. Nits/editorial comments: 1. Introduction [...] but will normally retain and actively employ the addresses configured for the previously-advertised prefix, since their associated Preferred Lifetime and Valid Lifetime allow them to do so. Naively, it seems like the new prefix will almost always have longer lifetime values than the old prefix, and given that this seems to be how orderly renumbering causes hosts to transition from using the old prefix to the new prefix, it's not clear how hosts "will normally ... actively employ the addresses configured for the previously-advertised prefix". Naively, hosts only seem to be permitted to employ the old prefix, but the preferred behavior would be to use the new prefix whenever possible. o During the planned network renumbering, a router may be configured to send an RA with the Preferred Lifetime for the "old" Prefix Information Option (PIO) set to zero and the new PIO having non- zero Preferred Lifetime. This sentence reminds me: There are a number of places where PIO is mentioned. My understanding from here is that PIO is only used in RA, so for simplicity/clarity, mentions of PIO should always include that they are within RAs, so that the reader remember that all prefix announcements are either RAs or SLAAC. Conversely, if PIOs are used both by SLAAC and RAs, that should be emphasized early on, so the reader knows that later mentions of PIOs apply to both protocols equally. Then again, perhaps RAs are messages within SLAAC, in which case that should be made clear. In any case, the document should state the relationship between SLAAC, RA, and PIO. o Automated device config management system performs periodic config pushes to network devices. If such a push results in changing the subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change, and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not be deprecated. Naively it seems than when a router receives such a config push, it would as a matter of course tell the attached hosts that the prefix it gave to the hosts is no longer configured, as indeed, that prefix is no longer configured. I think you want to add some statement that when routers receive config pushes they often(?) simply immediately forget their previous configuration, rather than withdrawing it gracefully. In various places, "timely" and derived words are used. In some places, the text asserts that certain intervals are not timely (in an absolute sense) without any discussion about what the standard of timeliness is. It seems that some such discussion needs to be made, or a statement made that such a discussion needs to be undertaken as part of the work. Some devices have implemented ad-hoc mechanisms to address this problem, such as sending RAs to invalidate apparently-stale prefixes [...] This seems to contradict the statement in section 2.3 that an RA cannot effectively reduce the Valid Lifetime of a prefix (as maintained by a host) to zero: "Item e) [...] specifies that an RA may never reduce the "RemainingLifetime" to less than two hours." Indeed, a crux of this document is that there is no way for a router to immediately invalidate the use of a prefix on a network whose addressing it configures. So the described mechanism needs to be clarified. 2.2. Default Timer Values in IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers in this way is that, in problematic scenarios, they trigger some recovery action. I think you want to expand this by saying "This action should minimize the time the fault is visible to higher levels of the protocol stack, or ideally, prevent it from becoming visible." Possibly move this above the preceding paragraph, and extend that paragraph with "Ideally, retransmission enables the higher-level protocol to proceed without disruption, only delay." Under normal network conditions, these timers will be reset/refreshed to the default values. However, under problematic circumstances, It seems like the first sentence is not to the point of this paragraph, and it would be clearer just starting with "Under problematic circumstances ...". 2.4. Lack of Explicit Signaling about Stale Information [...] such signaling would be mostly ignored. This needs clarification why it is "mostly" rather than "always". 3.2. SLAAC Parameter Tweaking However, while the aforementioned values are an improvement over the default values specified in [RFC4861], they will not lead to a timely recovery from the problem discussed in this document. As mentioned above, this implies an absolute standard of timeliness, but no such standard has been discussed. It's also unclear why this document chose the particular values listed, given that it considers them too long. Why not just propose values that would give acceptable behavior? [END] From nobody Sun Aug 30 18:14:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 4A4673A0C17; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7003A0C0E; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dale Worley via Datatracker To: Cc: last-call@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159883647280.7294.15168668243468397592@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Dale Worley Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:32 -0700 Resent-From: Resent-To: fgont@si6networks.com, jan@zorz.si, richard.patterson@sky.uk, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, rbonica@juniper.net, rwilton@cisco.com, warren@kumari.net, Owen DeLong , v6ops@ietf.org, owen@delong.com Resent-Message-Id: <20200831011433.4A4673A0C17@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 01:14:33 -0000 Reviewer: Dale Worley Review result: Ready with Nits I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-v6ops-slaac-renum-03 Reviewer: Dale R. Worley Review Date: IETF LC End Date: 2020-09-09 IESG Telechat date: [not set] Summary: This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be fixed before publication. Overall, the draft is fine, but there are various places where the wording could be amplified or improved to make matters clearer to the less-well-prepared reader (like me). Minor issues: There is one technical aspect that doesn't seem to be addressed explicitly: Given that a router should never advertise a prefix via SLAAC that extends beyond the lease time it has received via DHCP, even if the router is restarted and it receives a new prefix via DHCP, the old prefix remains delegated to the network for the remainder of its lease time, and in a way, it remains *valid* for the hosts to use addresses derived from the old prefix for the remainder of the lifetime they received from SLAAC. The existence of this document shows that such usage does not work well, but perhaps there is some place early in the discussion where it can be made clear that validity is not sufficient in practice. Nits/editorial comments: 1. Introduction [...] but will normally retain and actively employ the addresses configured for the previously-advertised prefix, since their associated Preferred Lifetime and Valid Lifetime allow them to do so. Naively, it seems like the new prefix will almost always have longer lifetime values than the old prefix, and given that this seems to be how orderly renumbering causes hosts to transition from using the old prefix to the new prefix, it's not clear how hosts "will normally ... actively employ the addresses configured for the previously-advertised prefix". Naively, hosts only seem to be permitted to employ the old prefix, but the preferred behavior would be to use the new prefix whenever possible. o During the planned network renumbering, a router may be configured to send an RA with the Preferred Lifetime for the "old" Prefix Information Option (PIO) set to zero and the new PIO having non- zero Preferred Lifetime. This sentence reminds me: There are a number of places where PIO is mentioned. My understanding from here is that PIO is only used in RA, so for simplicity/clarity, mentions of PIO should always include that they are within RAs, so that the reader remember that all prefix announcements are either RAs or SLAAC. Conversely, if PIOs are used both by SLAAC and RAs, that should be emphasized early on, so the reader knows that later mentions of PIOs apply to both protocols equally. Then again, perhaps RAs are messages within SLAAC, in which case that should be made clear. In any case, the document should state the relationship between SLAAC, RA, and PIO. o Automated device config management system performs periodic config pushes to network devices. If such a push results in changing the subnet configured on a particular network, hosts attached to that network would not get notified about the subnet change, and their addresses from the "old" prefix will not be deprecated. Naively it seems than when a router receives such a config push, it would as a matter of course tell the attached hosts that the prefix it gave to the hosts is no longer configured, as indeed, that prefix is no longer configured. I think you want to add some statement that when routers receive config pushes they often(?) simply immediately forget their previous configuration, rather than withdrawing it gracefully. In various places, "timely" and derived words are used. In some places, the text asserts that certain intervals are not timely (in an absolute sense) without any discussion about what the standard of timeliness is. It seems that some such discussion needs to be made, or a statement made that such a discussion needs to be undertaken as part of the work. Some devices have implemented ad-hoc mechanisms to address this problem, such as sending RAs to invalidate apparently-stale prefixes [...] This seems to contradict the statement in section 2.3 that an RA cannot effectively reduce the Valid Lifetime of a prefix (as maintained by a host) to zero: "Item e) [...] specifies that an RA may never reduce the "RemainingLifetime" to less than two hours." Indeed, a crux of this document is that there is no way for a router to immediately invalidate the use of a prefix on a network whose addressing it configures. So the described mechanism needs to be clarified. 2.2. Default Timer Values in IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration For obvious reasons, the whole point of using timers in this way is that, in problematic scenarios, they trigger some recovery action. I think you want to expand this by saying "This action should minimize the time the fault is visible to higher levels of the protocol stack, or ideally, prevent it from becoming visible." Possibly move this above the preceding paragraph, and extend that paragraph with "Ideally, retransmission enables the higher-level protocol to proceed without disruption, only delay." Under normal network conditions, these timers will be reset/refreshed to the default values. However, under problematic circumstances, It seems like the first sentence is not to the point of this paragraph, and it would be clearer just starting with "Under problematic circumstances ...". 2.4. Lack of Explicit Signaling about Stale Information [...] such signaling would be mostly ignored. This needs clarification why it is "mostly" rather than "always". 3.2. SLAAC Parameter Tweaking However, while the aforementioned values are an improvement over the default values specified in [RFC4861], they will not lead to a timely recovery from the problem discussed in this document. As mentioned above, this implies an absolute standard of timeliness, but no such standard has been discussed. It's also unclear why this document chose the particular values listed, given that it considers them too long. Why not just propose values that would give acceptable behavior? [END] From nobody Sun Aug 30 19:01:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6599C3A0C9D; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:01:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Liang Xia via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init.all@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159883928237.28454.12784503452648077331@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Liang Xia Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:01:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-v6ops-nd-cache-init-04 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 02:01:23 -0000 Reviewer: Liang Xia Review result: Ready This document discusses how the neighbor discovery state machine on a first-hop router is causing user-visible connectivity issues when a new (not being seen on the network before) IPv6 address is being used. As described in the Security Considerations, it documents the operational issue and does not introduce any new security considerations.