From nobody Tue May 2 10:33:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E31313156B for ; Tue, 2 May 2017 10:33:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_Yu6SpFrF6Y for ; Tue, 2 May 2017 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 895B0129B8D for ; Tue, 2 May 2017 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1493746234; x=1494351034; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=hErT6tc+HiaIhEDkxvKpTWRSxixoICDMRPlN7rpZroM=; b=h2Y77S5sKultk SknOjzr8nBPAclMghUzizBTldING52liintOnLDC4zqLZKzqyJVEctz48dniT9eR FY/pg5xaXVDs4ABi+Cv5u3xj2oTT2XPLlR1P8jq3Sd5mmQSg/ECT9HG6Q5UF6Kuz UAO3Mp/oJ9FbenawsJz+LnYVy4ek4c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=ffwvzJhYdxinnCn6Ef2pI+ZVuMxj7QsFxiuyeFCc4QWg9jhrKk+aIJtL/izq TJcWHvvOwWRyoyUoobbfo+Z3vkbYN9yF+4j4BHWLTPZMfvuwjaENc34uS Xr+lM3YW86fc5gHdjuHZjhNdvOHmpRuybWgEcr0dEBHYK57EZXIZnA=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 02 May 2017 19:30:34 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 02 May 2017 19:30:33 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005419734.msg for ; Tue, 02 May 2017 19:30:32 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170502:md50005419734::/4ss1QvUfyMsk1Ai:00001faP X-Return-Path: prvs=1295ecb3a4=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: venue-selection@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.21.0.170409 Date: Tue, 02 May 2017 19:30:29 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <57B18A26-477D-488F-B790-472F25E93A4D@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: can we make an RFC for the venue selection process? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Venue-selection] can we make an RFC for the venue selection process? X-BeenThere: venue-selection@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Venue Selection List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 May 2017 17:33:32 -0000 Hi all, During all last week, I=E2=80=99ve participated in a very interesting exper= ience that I believe is important to share with this WG. I was assisting the AMS/NOC team in the survey of 8 different venues (plus = a few overflow hotels) in a couple of cities. Before that, I=E2=80=99d already a lot of ideas of what are our needs, and = in fact, I worked in draft-palet-ietf-meeting-venue-selection-criteria-04, = and of course, I=E2=80=99m following this list and the meetings. However, actually participating in the process I feel that we are getting w= rong draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-06. I wish that all the contributors in this effort actually have the opportuni= ty to participate in this activity (on-site venue survey) before actually c= ontributing to the document in a way that it works. Believe me, it will be = useless if we approve a document that is not based in REAL EXPERIENCE. More= over, I did the exercise of trying to =E2=80=9Cpass=E2=80=9D venues where w= e had successful meetings, and only a couple of them, in the last years, ac= tually worked. Again, I=E2=80=99m not talking about =E2=80=9Ctheoretical=E2=80=9D, but wha= t I=E2=80=99ve seen in the IETF meeting, as I started participating in Lond= on 2001 and since then I=E2=80=99ve been in all them, not missing any, so I= =E2=80=99ve been able to see in my own skin what it worked and what not =E2= =80=A6 We are a technical standards organization, and RFCs are very good for defin= ing protocols, algorithms and so, that can be turned in to actual code. How= ever, it is very clear now for me that we can=E2=80=99t use an RFC to enfor= ce a venue coalification. This will bring us to the situation that only 4-5= , maybe 6 venues in the world, work for us. Is that what we are looking for? We may need a =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D document, not what we understand as= an RFC, and different requirements language to make it work. In a generic way, the term Mandatory, as described in 1.2 of the actual doc= ument, is useless, and will only mean that we need to consult the community= 95% of the venues that already worked before for successful meetings. I think we need a document that can be used by the =E2=80=9Con-site venue s= urvey team=E2=80=9D as a guidance, not as a document to =E2=80=9Cmatch=E2= =80=9D the venues with. Believe me this will not work and will be a tool fo= r endless debates. Maybe, if we just relax what Mandatory means, then it may work, but only ma= ybe. For example: Actual: Mandatory: If this requirement cannot be met, a particular location is unacceptable for selection, and no contract is to be entered into. Should the IAOC learn that a location no longer can meet a mandatory requirement after having entered into a contract, it will inform the community and address the matter on a case by case basis. New: Mandatory: If this requirement cannot be met, a particular location will need further examination and a balance among =E2=80=9Cmandatory=E2=80=9D a= nd =E2=80=9Cimportant=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cdesired=E2=80=9D will be req= uired towards a final decision. by the IAOC. In extreme situations, the IAOC will consult with the=20 community. Alternatively, instead of an RFC, we may think that this must be a web page= with all the information as =E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9C= guidelines=E2=80=9D for venue requirements. As I=E2=80=99ve re-read several times the actual document during last week,= I also have some other inputs (many of those related to the past week expe= rience), which I=E2=80=99m addressing one by one: 1) Section 2.1 point 2, should include =E2=80=9Cfreedom of expression for t= he participants=E2=80=9D. 2) I think we must not hold meetings in venues that allow people to carry f= irearms. I know this may be a conflict for many people that believe that se= lf-defense is a right, but I agree that is true in the street, but inside a= venue? If a venue is not considered safe so it =E2=80=9Cencourages people = to carry a gun=E2=80=9D, then there is no discussion on that, we should not= meet in that venue. 3) At 3.2 the reference =E2=80=9CThere are sufficient places (e.g., a mix o= f hallways, bars, meeting rooms, and restaurants) =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D is for= the facility or the venue/city? Actually, I think is not the same and we m= ay need to split that in 3 equivalent requirements, one for the facility, o= ne for the hotel, one for the facility neighborhood. For instance, we may f= ind a conference center with is plenty of much more space that what we need= , but the hotel may have no space, or on the other way around. Or the hotel= maybe has no restaurants but across the street (2=E2=80=99 walk) you have = a shopping center with offers 20 options. 4) =E2=80=9CThe Facility permits easy wheelchair access=E2=80=9D. While I a= gree this is a kind of =E2=80=9CMUST=E2=80=9D in our usual terminology, wha= t it means =E2=80=9Ceasy=E2=80=9D? Regulations in different countries may p= rovide a different meaning for =E2=80=9Ceasy=E2=80=9D, so I think we should= delete =E2=80=9Ceasy=E2=80=9D, because it turns into something very subjec= tive. 5) In the past, we were talking about 350 guest rooms at a minimum in the = =E2=80=9Cheadquarter hotel=E2=80=9D. Now we have =E2=80=9CThe guest rooms a= t the IETF Hotel(s) are sufficient in number to house 1/3 or more of projec= ted meeting=E2=80=9D. I recall we had this discussion because the Intercont= inental at Yokohama. I think we need to have a clear vision that if we have= 3 or 4 hotels instead of just 1-2 that fulfill let=E2=80=99s say, the cove= rage needed for 75% of the participants, that should be enough if they are = in very close proximity. For example, one hotel next to the other in the sa= me street, or across the street, and walking 5 minutes or so bring you to t= he meeting facility. 6) Same consideration as in 4 above to remove =E2=80=9Ceasy=E2=80=9D at =E2= =80=9CThe IETF Hotel(s) permit easy wheelchair access=E2=80=9D. 7) =E2=80=9CThe IETF Headquarters Hotel has a space for use as a lounge =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D This text need to be rewritten, as it is assuming that ther= e is only one =E2=80=9Cheadquarter=E2=80=9D hotel. What if we have 4 as mai= n hotels, because among them fulfill our needs? 8) =E2=80=9CThe Venue environs, which includes both onsite, as well as area= s within a reasonable walking distance or conveniently accessible by a shor= t taxi, bus, or subway ride, have convenient and inexpensive choices for me= als that can accommodate a wide range of dietary requirements.=E2=80=9C. Re= place =E2=80=9Cshort taxi, bus, or subway ride=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cshort= taxi ride, or any other public transport service=E2=80=9D, this way opens = other choices with are not bus or subway, which are available now in cities= or may be available in the future =E2=80=A6 9) This may be an English issue =E2=80=9Cgrocery shopping=E2=80=9D includes= small markets, supermarkets, hypermarkets, local shops, etc., just to be o= n the safe side. 10) I think it will be VERY important to have a local, which is also involv= ed in the IETF, and knows the venue and the neighborhood of the facilities = being evaluated, to help the on-site survey team. This could be added to 5.= 3 Qualification. 11) Appendix A should not be a MUST, is an overall reference. There are man= y parameters there that may change depending on the set of: facility + hote= ls + neighborhood. Regards, Jordi =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Thu May 4 12:41:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94D6129502 for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CzsKoLfS_MRv for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C8B4126BFD for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id p24so35605943ioi.0 for ; Thu, 04 May 2017 12:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7mndbzdW11j7OEtfMVmS0PpJKWKzhxZfEa8/jts0fFY=; b=rLgrUc9V4IFdI4Ghmq4/jnqNlHS0LB/8CFR//o4YTMhHXdQ0JNm+KGBiURm0BU+OpI t7UnuIV2gnGtFkO+DcOmRxPQ0+glJx/53rwEbcyfzl3NWRfmLr71fY9Dmu/p3TQuLD8i npafeOeUdmHD8ls8E9aqACqMOrKlkr1bEHECJszoEj0pTgMO/6n0ERHnCGFlfgP20WnG JeAGh15hy4cBT7koFLtnkzpaA6xYIeK66kWq2nIJY342bvAU5ilL7Va2Sd69YhtYif1w 75WNdU3Z/lPRXb+HMHrdlVlLcst5PqusK96tIY7Z4JhILXleIZAOzmLfdY6sHrZFR3QQ 3J4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7mndbzdW11j7OEtfMVmS0PpJKWKzhxZfEa8/jts0fFY=; b=ODQfXLjn3//3wvLpRX3xcCF2wN+XlBgH2sGdH9hOuexImkHUXsFHat02uQpTOIUCUm KS+joYDkyVByL5Y7D83ECCC8d9r29sGzxeT/H0hkjc6RPWi+T7tSBAPeZV+voks9sUbx rs3zt7zO0NAEDiAEXIDJloDai/+rQS1I/m1iPQjRlcyd2QyIli7HDQO5xZYSUyA+xdbQ iscO0bt2iVdLVCqQZCmWUgBcTmstYvSPnYJ84w80hzT3OLkTSJ9BrkB62503WBGJZpe6 6p8801VTzd1a6DlrA02mLTBE1wsm4CUXwPi7vCGgzxUyyYTmmu/ptr44bF6TxYJs8T04 cMSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/7U9eHcxUry3sxy/omrzWspGfnbHNIKoSoKBDEnWB2HaLmrD+td PLkNmR4DDfyZtbuhOxbcODOu7RNMRGXBHj4= X-Received: by 10.107.202.70 with SMTP id a67mr32740410iog.141.1493926903414; Thu, 04 May 2017 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.36.79 with HTTP; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:41:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:41:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: venue-selection@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0bb360660ce0054eb7f6c3 Archived-At: Subject: [Venue-selection] Your poll on some cities X-BeenThere: venue-selection@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Venue Selection List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 19:41:47 -0000 --94eb2c0bb360660ce0054eb7f6c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sorry to take so long to respond but perhaps my input will still be of some use. On the following list Bangkok Daejeon Hong Kong Macau Madrid Sydney I think these are all good except Daejeon and Madrid. Daejeon is just too far from the most convenient international airport. And I have not been to a standards meeting in Madrid so I can't give an opinion on it. But all the rest (Bangkok, Hong Kong, Macau, and Sydney) are fine. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com --94eb2c0bb360660ce0054eb7f6c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to take so long to respond but perhaps my input will= still be of some use. On the following list
Bangkok
Daejeon
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Hong Kong
Macau
Madrid
Sydney

I think these are all good except Daejeon and Madrid. Daejeon is= just too far from the most convenient international airport. And I have no= t been to a standards meeting in Madrid so I can't give an opinion on i= t. But all the rest (Bangkok, Hong Kong, Macau, and Sydney) are fine.
=

Tha= nks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0= +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.= com
--94eb2c0bb360660ce0054eb7f6c3-- From nobody Fri May 5 07:33:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA971294B9 for ; Fri, 5 May 2017 07:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_10_20=0.093, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wx8g7xmDr1DV for ; Fri, 5 May 2017 07:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x229.google.com (mail-yb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABE71129487 for ; Fri, 5 May 2017 07:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x229.google.com with SMTP id s22so1692606ybe.3 for ; Fri, 05 May 2017 07:33:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=S/LcALt4YIzp9rOdN7QeyMmrW7Eii7PqJIHBLSLAH5U=; b=OnsxumskxkqeVKaT6x3XW0gazOV2tyI3YRvMy8zYpu8/uX8dWT974o95AQJEuTDAYD MuU96rxwiEGbxhxMUG1kF6t5ILxdZbE83Jty6QzZet5RuhpZ04Ku+RwW+KGwene9wMd5 NSiNqGUk3dS/qivIQpDTwzleuFSCrEHLVA3UlzVzhmJ7raLqMejXcJeEKxPbdVl4jutG Ku9xLkESCCIP7shRV4fGJaW6elPUgqLWmT2h/MzDD66nEoXqZITJ8z6WoZGHbI1Iy8GF PAimG9bGT8/+0LyD1sF+6fDvJIj/rjUK2q5QXxPwVF5wdaRNuK/qOS+eGlDzyg0xifGe IAyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=S/LcALt4YIzp9rOdN7QeyMmrW7Eii7PqJIHBLSLAH5U=; b=mOEH3nAR36Di5WV4vpJiSWeLCkXQWjSfmJ20KS4Tnw6A8Dt4lDEpZ61WGmk6QXpCJI XUsxsm3oOss6WkRMelr7DuLDGPvTCrDtNJZQZa5cEYicK1GHRATP3dU8O1pQXuCikyEG s/m3RLqUmsFonN5WBWvy4zT/MlGfZHk6Nue3SnRRMwsp17vt6wxsm70zW7HvFR/biDUV NA47Bslvd7wUBgx2eHGKjrekTfOlSvfpP/wdT+Cv7VL/gFs88jhAkcAUzJYsfxdazn/r O+3JosjnuT/EmzItniu/XnN5HKV0QEKu3nP/uqkQIVFMWJBSDZArVY1VMV4Sr4PjU+3e 5juw== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/5YrcmRaG7eeOchWlLja3RRs7TGCzT3Wq7Hp2VKHNcFw4Lm9JJi M/RnelSiId1MLxwheOHJF7NrCN47n9UJ1fk= X-Received: by 10.37.174.24 with SMTP id a24mr39716664ybj.50.1493994806684; Fri, 05 May 2017 07:33:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.131.150 with HTTP; Fri, 5 May 2017 07:32:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 07:32:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: venue-selection@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045da358bfdd4f054ec7c588 Archived-At: Subject: [Venue-selection] Comments on meeting cities X-BeenThere: venue-selection@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Venue Selection List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 14:33:29 -0000 --f403045da358bfdd4f054ec7c588 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear IAOC, In response to your request for feedback, I do not believe that we could have a successful meeting in Macau or Hong Kong. Prior experience with Beijing indicates that a large number of main participants will not attend meetings in the PRC because of security and/or philosophical concerns. I believe this should rule out Macau and Hong Kong. -Ekr --f403045da358bfdd4f054ec7c588 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear IAOC,

In response= to your request for feedback, I do not believe that we could have a succes= sful meeting in=C2=A0Macau=C2=A0or Hong Kon= g. Prior experience with Beijing indicates that a large number of main part= icipants will not attend meetings in the PRC because of security and/or phi= losophical concerns. I believe this should rule out=C2=A0Macau=C2=A0and Hong Kong.

-Ekr
--f403045da358bfdd4f054ec7c588-- From jhildebrand@mozilla.com Tue May 9 14:10:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: venue-selection@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AFD1292CE for ; Tue, 9 May 2017 14:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jZUK0b4uGAR1 for ; Tue, 9 May 2017 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x22d.google.com (mail-yb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8CEB1292C5 for ; Tue, 9 May 2017 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s22so3488466ybe.3 for ; Tue, 09 May 2017 14:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=ydh6XzNx97PPRLZZiXfOPHa2KnCagoWvnwG0nNqCbE8=; b=aajNKJGIL0sYXN5OW88MWVuBkKLUq537AQ3Y5jJ+IxxooxECPra6qzwsJQz9mKTqSv ReGwppkrDGSyp3nwz4rxRIugEdofVeUWBZQake+b/5xndHPtMrfh2aQdf947PmzoDQBm FlpOtBp2GqdYOFzEqpCcl09eBOc9lpOh0VHdk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=ydh6XzNx97PPRLZZiXfOPHa2KnCagoWvnwG0nNqCbE8=; b=E7SCCZPdqz0cT8o7N/oXqfSpXMdn92Mw24bxhVCJfJSnKmGWW5rG3+u7mAKcyKIy68 hTNFwCBihtpSWHiNc7vpR/Alp9Ml/Ag7T1i1KLzabk6cD96RQQ09B5BRT/VWyTX8Ja15 5Qvc1a3OKrZU5q3ApA7+MkOlMM8l9nVjS5gE0F61B2Ztru/MJ+dWy4tM73Q4VsylVJtD JM5SNfDZPa7SPkR4U9fpoCGKPBIt7dPGbSKHn/rMx/lNapZOeCb9clNVRvNfpUmRhZY2 DrSh6gxMP1jPHsNs6Yt1yYR+F++4uZ9wvoAOcGABXgy0SigyakV5HAy2H2KfwB+v53UI OljA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAmZwsKKxjhDHtBrhuz1COj50jaqlbyiutY7RRgW0RK/3SHA4ze 6UpY7qOI/a0b+fGuYgIHEw== X-Received: by 10.37.122.129 with SMTP id v123mr2032192ybc.157.1494364211632; Tue, 09 May 2017 14:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.21.8] ([128.177.113.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o81sm554757ywd.48.2017.05.09.14.10.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 May 2017 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Hildebrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <8A8E0637-5526-44CD-A7E9-7A14764D2CB1@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 15:10:10 -0600 To: venue-selection@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Venue-selection] potential venues in China X-BeenThere: venue-selection@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Venue Selection List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 21:10:42 -0000 I understand that you are soliciting opinions about the potential = meetings in Hong Kong or Macau. I'm unlikely to attend meetings in either of those locations, and would = require extraordinary justification for any of the engineers in my = organization who might want to attend. I have more concerns than just = the difficulty of acquiring visas; our previous Beijing meeting (which I = attended, trying to keep an open mind) was overshadowed by what we all = assumed to be representatives of the state security apparatus inserting = themselves into the meeting venue, some of whom were invasive in taking = pictures of participants or lurking about in a way that seemed intended = to dissuade participation. I do not wish to repeat that experience, nor = subject my employees to it. =E2=80=94=20 Joe Hildebrand