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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 09:34:41 -0400
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: [VoT] Trust Frameworks: The anchor point of vectors of trust
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As I’ve been working through the VoT concept more recently, it’s becoming clearer to me that the vectors themselves always need to be anchored in the context of some kind of trust framework agreement in order for them to make any sense at all. Now, this could be something as simple as “I’m an RP that’s been configured to trust this particular IdP no matter what it says”, or it could be something much more complex, like what the folks at GTRI have been working on for years now. [1]

In the original strawman, we proposed that there would be a “trustmark” discovery component that would allow the RP to do some processing on the request and make some reasonable decisions as to what to do with the vector information. After digging into this more, and talking with a number of people about this, I think we can take that a step further. I’m proposing that we define the values of the components in the context of trust frameworks, with a VoT IETF document itself acting as a “reasonable default” definition of these values that other trust frameworks can use.

One of the reasons that I’m looking to this approach is that there have been and will continue to be a lot of contentious arguments about the contents of these vector components. There are bound to be many context-sensitive and implementation-specific details that go into defining whether or not, for instance, a shared password of a particular entropy value qualifies as “C2" or not.

So does this mean we’re punting on core functionality and pushing it off to a nebulous “trust framework” definition? What does the VoT draft itself bring to the table, then? I think that it brings a few very valuable things:

  - A set of well-defined component categories (proofing, credentialing, assertion)
  - A default (example?) set of elements within those categories
  - A way of combining components losslessly into a single vector value (the losslessness is very important!!)
  - A way of communicating vectors across the internet in an authentication transaction
  - A way of tying the expression of a particular vector in an authentication transaction’s context to a specific trust framework/trustmark definition.

It also gives us a chance to ground the trustmark work in a real, modern identity protocol context. I think there’s been a lot of good work done here, and it needs to be expressed in a way that RPs can make sense of it, especially in light of a dynamic world. Take, for example, a user signing into an RP with an IdP that the RP has never heard of before. This is very possible with protocols like OpenID Connect, on a technology level, but it doesn’t give the RP much hope in establishing a trust relationship beyond the basic “you’re probably the server I talked to last time”. But what if the IdP is assessed by a trust framework that the RP knows about? What if the RP can programmatically process the information that the trust framework provides about the IdP?

When properly applied, this combination would give us (I believe) the hooks necessary for an RP to drill down into details about specific attributes, if desired. I strongly believe that we don’t want to chuck a ton of attributes and metadata about those attributes (and metadata about the metadata, ad nauseum) along with every authentication transaction. But I do think there’s some value in having that available through clear process grounded in the vector itself.

  — Justin

[1]https://trustmark.gtri.gatech.edu/


From nobody Wed Jun  3 10:29:38 2015
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From: "Bucci, Debbie (OS/ONC)" <Debbie.Bucci@hhs.gov>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Trust Frameworks: The anchor point of vectors of trust
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Trust Frameworks: The anchor point of vectors of trust
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+1

Curious .... Does the GTRI work need to be vetted or at lest recognized by =
IETF ?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 3, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> As I=92ve been working through the VoT concept more recently, it=92s beco=
ming clearer to me that the vectors themselves always need to be anchored i=
n the context of some kind of trust framework agreement in order for them t=
o make any sense at all. Now, this could be something as simple as =93I=92m=
 an RP that=92s been configured to trust this particular IdP no matter what=
 it says=94, or it could be something much more complex, like what the folk=
s at GTRI have been working on for years now. [1]
>=20
> In the original strawman, we proposed that there would be a =93trustmark=
=94 discovery component that would allow the RP to do some processing on th=
e request and make some reasonable decisions as to what to do with the vect=
or information. After digging into this more, and talking with a number of =
people about this, I think we can take that a step further. I=92m proposing=
 that we define the values of the components in the context of trust framew=
orks, with a VoT IETF document itself acting as a =93reasonable default=94 =
definition of these values that other trust frameworks can use.
>=20
> One of the reasons that I=92m looking to this approach is that there have=
 been and will continue to be a lot of contentious arguments about the cont=
ents of these vector components. There are bound to be many context-sensiti=
ve and implementation-specific details that go into defining whether or not=
, for instance, a shared password of a particular entropy value qualifies a=
s =93C2" or not.
>=20
> So does this mean we=92re punting on core functionality and pushing it of=
f to a nebulous =93trust framework=94 definition? What does the VoT draft i=
tself bring to the table, then? I think that it brings a few very valuable =
things:
>=20
> - A set of well-defined component categories (proofing, credentialing, as=
sertion)
> - A default (example?) set of elements within those categories
> - A way of combining components losslessly into a single vector value (th=
e losslessness is very important!!)
> - A way of communicating vectors across the internet in an authentication=
 transaction
> - A way of tying the expression of a particular vector in an authenticati=
on transaction=92s context to a specific trust framework/trustmark definiti=
on.
>=20
> It also gives us a chance to ground the trustmark work in a real, modern =
identity protocol context. I think there=92s been a lot of good work done h=
ere, and it needs to be expressed in a way that RPs can make sense of it, e=
specially in light of a dynamic world. Take, for example, a user signing in=
to an RP with an IdP that the RP has never heard of before. This is very po=
ssible with protocols like OpenID Connect, on a technology level, but it do=
esn=92t give the RP much hope in establishing a trust relationship beyond t=
he basic =93you=92re probably the server I talked to last time=94. But what=
 if the IdP is assessed by a trust framework that the RP knows about? What =
if the RP can programmatically process the information that the trust frame=
work provides about the IdP?
>=20
> When properly applied, this combination would give us (I believe) the hoo=
ks necessary for an RP to drill down into details about specific attributes=
, if desired. I strongly believe that we don=92t want to chuck a ton of att=
ributes and metadata about those attributes (and metadata about the metadat=
a, ad nauseum) along with every authentication transaction. But I do think =
there=92s some value in having that available through clear process grounde=
d in the vector itself.
>=20
> =97 Justin
>=20
> [1]https://trustmark.gtri.gatech.edu/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot


From nobody Fri Jun 26 20:15:29 2015
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Subject: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Hi Everyone,

I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial =
number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an =
initial I-D of the document:

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00>

It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s =
starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss =
it here on the list.

I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would =
like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be there in =
person), let me know!

 =E2=80=94 Justin=

--Apple-Mail=_EEFE3D9A-4FBD-4FCF-9D62-258AFEB7E48B
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Everyone,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a =
substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks and have =
created an initial I-D of the document:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a><=
/div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s =
still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s starting to make =
this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the =
list.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I would =
like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would like to =
discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be there in =
person), let me know!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_EEFE3D9A-4FBD-4FCF-9D62-258AFEB7E48B--


From nobody Mon Jun 29 16:14:10 2015
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From: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>
To: 'Justin Richer' <jricher@MIT.EDU>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D)
Thread-Index: AdCywAdxGV06rU/8R4OLexR95fMGDA==
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 23:14:02 +0000
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/vot/RIBx7D95ckEqG2NYPgXb-kvZoI8>
Subject: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <147EE18440E5AF44834B220ED35BA530014AB1AEC1@WLGPRDMBX02.dia.govt.nz>
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 20:49:04 -0400
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References: <147EE18440E5AF44834B220ED35BA530014AB1AEC1@WLGPRDMBX02.dia.govt.nz>
To: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>
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Cc: "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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Colin, that=E2=80=99s a great question, because I=E2=80=99m honestly not =
sure what the answer is yet. I think that the vectors only make sense in =
the context of some kind of trust framework setup, but that sometimes =
those policies will be hard-coded at configuration time and won=E2=80=99t =
need to be dynamically bound or discovered. That said, I think the real =
value of this is going to be cross-domain where an RP could subscribe to =
(and understand) multiple trust marks and be able to validate them at =
runtime. Still, that piece might be separable enough, and perhaps =
substantive enough, to be its own draft.=20

That said, I figured I=E2=80=99d write it down down and figure out where =
it=E2=80=99s actually supposed to go later. :)

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz> =
wrote:
>=20
> Many thanks Justin and Leif
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve done a first pass/light read, and from that, I think it =
is a terrific first cut that gets us on the path to normalizing the =
discussions over the past 9 months.
> =20
> Aside from a few tidy ups, I just have this slight concern whether all =
of Clause 7 (Discovery and Verification) is in scope for normative text?
> I certainly appreciate that in most implementations and deployments, =
there would be a dependency on an operational trust framework and =
trustmark.
> But is it too big a stretch to make that normative for this work?
> Just a thought.. and more than happy to be proven wrong.. J.
> =20
> Cheers
> Colin
> =20
> =20
> From: vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Justin Richer
> Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 p.m.
> To: vot@ietf.org
> Subject: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
> =20
> Hi Everyone,
> =20
> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial =
number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an =
initial I-D of the document:
> =20
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00>
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s =
starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss =
it here on the list.
> =20
> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who =
would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be =
there in person), let me know!
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Colin, that=E2=80=99s a great question, because I=E2=80=99m =
honestly not sure what the answer is yet. I think that the vectors only =
make sense in the context of some kind of trust framework setup, but =
that sometimes those policies will be hard-coded at configuration time =
and won=E2=80=99t need to be dynamically bound or discovered. That said, =
I think the real value of this is going to be cross-domain where an RP =
could subscribe to (and understand) multiple trust marks and be able to =
validate them at runtime. Still, that piece might be separable enough, =
and perhaps substantive enough, to be its own draft.&nbsp;<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That said, I figured =
I=E2=80=99d write it down down and figure out where it=E2=80=99s =
actually supposed to go later. :)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz" =
class=3D"">Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
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<div lang=3D"EN-NZ" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Many thanks Justin and Leif<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve done a first pass/light =
read, and from that, I think it is a terrific first cut that gets us on =
the path to normalizing the discussions over the past 9
 months. <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Aside from a few tidy ups, I just have =
this slight concern whether all of Clause 7 (Discovery and Verification) =
is in scope for normative text?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I certainly appreciate that in most =
implementations and deployments, there would be a dependency on an =
operational trust framework and trustmark.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">But is it too big a stretch to make =
that normative for this work?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Just a thought.. and more than happy to =
be proven wrong..
</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">J</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Cheers<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Colin
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;" class=3D""> vot [<a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Justin Richer<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 p.m.<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Everyone,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken the initial strawman =
proposal along with a substantial number of edits and inputs from =
several folks and have created an initial I-D of the document:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a><=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty =
draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s starting to make this a concrete =
thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose a bar-BoF =
in Prague for VoT for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99=
re interested (and will be there in person), let me know!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: "Grassi, Paul A." <paul.grassi@nist.gov>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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Cc: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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I personally like the idea of discoverability at the onset, and the discuss=
ion that will follow.

This was great to read, thanks to you and Leif for the work!

On Jun 29, 2015, at 8:49 PM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu<mailto:jriche=
r@mit.edu>> wrote:

Colin, that's a great question, because I'm honestly not sure what the answ=
er is yet. I think that the vectors only make sense in the context of some =
kind of trust framework setup, but that sometimes those policies will be ha=
rd-coded at configuration time and won't need to be dynamically bound or di=
scovered. That said, I think the real value of this is going to be cross-do=
main where an RP could subscribe to (and understand) multiple trust marks a=
nd be able to validate them at runtime. Still, that piece might be separabl=
e enough, and perhaps substantive enough, to be its own draft.

That said, I figured I'd write it down down and figure out where it's actua=
lly supposed to go later. :)

 - Justin

On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz<mailto:=
Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>> wrote:

Many thanks Justin and Leif

I've done a first pass/light read, and from that, I think it is a terrific =
first cut that gets us on the path to normalizing the discussions over the =
past 9 months.

Aside from a few tidy ups, I just have this slight concern whether all of C=
lause 7 (Discovery and Verification) is in scope for normative text?
I certainly appreciate that in most implementations and deployments, there =
would be a dependency on an operational trust framework and trustmark.
But is it too big a stretch to make that normative for this work?
Just a thought.. and more than happy to be proven wrong.. :).

Cheers
Colin


From: vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Justin Richer
Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 p.m.
To: vot@ietf.org<mailto:vot@ietf.org>
Subject: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D

Hi Everyone,

I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial number =
of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an initial I-D of t=
he document:

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00

It's still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it's starting to make this a =
concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.

I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would li=
ke to discuss this. If you're interested (and will be there in person), let=
 me know!

 - Justin

_______________________________________________
vot mailing list
vot@ietf.org<mailto:vot@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot

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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body dir=3D"auto">
<div>I personally like the idea of discoverability at the onset, and the di=
scussion that will follow.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This was great to read, thanks to you and Leif for the work!</div>
<div><br>
On Jun 29, 2015, at 8:49 PM, &quot;Justin Richer&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>Colin, that&#8217;s a great question, because I&#8217;m honestly not s=
ure what the answer is yet. I think that the vectors only make sense in the=
 context of some kind of trust framework setup, but that sometimes those po=
licies will be hard-coded at configuration time
 and won&#8217;t need to be dynamically bound or discovered. That said, I t=
hink the real value of this is going to be cross-domain where an RP could s=
ubscribe to (and understand) multiple trust marks and be able to validate t=
hem at runtime. Still, that piece might
 be separable enough, and perhaps substantive enough, to be its own draft.&=
nbsp;
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">That said, I figured I&#8217;d write it down down and figur=
e out where it&#8217;s actually supposed to go later. :)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;&#8212; Justin<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz" class=3D"">Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Many thanks Ju=
stin and Leif<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I&#8217;ve don=
e a first pass/light read, and from that, I think it is a terrific first cu=
t that gets us on the path to normalizing the discussions over the
 past 9 months. <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Aside from a f=
ew tidy ups, I just have this slight concern whether all of Clause 7 (Disco=
very and Verification) is in scope for normative text?<o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I certainly ap=
preciate that in most implementations and deployments, there would be a dep=
endency on an operational trust framework and trustmark.<o:p class=3D""></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">But is it too =
big a stretch to make that normative for this work?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Just a thought=
.. and more than happy to be proven wrong..
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"=
 class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">.<o:p class=3D"">=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Cheers<o:p cla=
ss=3D""></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Colin
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><=
/p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" class=3D"">=
From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" class=3D""> vot [<a href=3D"mail=
to:vot-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Justin Richer<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 p.m.<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" class=3D"">vot@ietf.o=
rg</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D<o:p class=3D""></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Everyone,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken the initial strawman proposal along wit=
h a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks and have crea=
ted an initial I-D of the document:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-ve=
ctors-of-trust-00" class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vector=
s-of-trust-00</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#8217;s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully =
it&#8217;s starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and =
discuss it here on the list.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT =
for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you&#8217;re interested (and =
will be there in person), let me know!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&#8212; Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>vot mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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From: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@MIT.EDU>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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From: Mark Lizar <mark@smartspecies.com>
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:34:50 +0100
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Cc: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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nice and crisp.

I can really start to imagine how discovery and trust marks can be used =
to scale trust. Although there is some additional issues around the =
overarching trust framework (whatever that is, I am assuming law). For =
example assessing trust marks so that they are appropriate for the =
purpose and also for application in the framework, with a robust method =
for assessing and asserting integrity of trust marks.  In this context =
then I think it would be clear how the trust marks fit with VOT.  Its =
the gap between these elements I suspect that needs to be further =
articulated and understood.

nicely thought provoking   ..

> On 30 Jun 2015, at 02:35, Grassi, Paul A. <paul.grassi@nist.gov> =
wrote:
>=20
> I personally like the idea of discoverability at the onset, and the =
discussion that will follow.
>=20
> This was great to read, thanks to you and Leif for the work!
>=20
> On Jun 29, 2015, at 8:49 PM, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
>=20
>> Colin, that=E2=80=99s a great question, because I=E2=80=99m honestly =
not sure what the answer is yet. I think that the vectors only make =
sense in the context of some kind of trust framework setup, but that =
sometimes those policies will be hard-coded at configuration time and =
won=E2=80=99t need to be dynamically bound or discovered. That said, I =
think the real value of this is going to be cross-domain where an RP =
could subscribe to (and understand) multiple trust marks and be able to =
validate them at runtime. Still, that piece might be separable enough, =
and perhaps substantive enough, to be its own draft.
>>=20
>> That said, I figured I=E2=80=99d write it down down and figure out =
where it=E2=80=99s actually supposed to go later. :)
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz =
<mailto:Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Many thanks Justin and Leif
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99ve done a first pass/light read, and from that, I think it =
is a terrific first cut that gets us on the path to normalizing the =
discussions over the past 9 months.
>>>=20
>>> Aside from a few tidy ups, I just have this slight concern whether =
all of Clause 7 (Discovery and Verification) is in scope for normative =
text?
>>> I certainly appreciate that in most implementations and deployments, =
there would be a dependency on an operational trust framework and =
trustmark.
>>> But is it too big a stretch to make that normative for this work?
>>> Just a thought.. and more than happy to be proven wrong.. J.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>> Colin
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Justin Richer
>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 p.m.
>>> To: vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
>>>=20
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>=20
>>> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial =
number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an =
initial I-D of the document:
>>>=20
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00>
>>>=20
>>> It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s =
starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss =
it here on the list.
>>>=20
>>> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who =
would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be =
there in person), let me know!
>>>=20
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">nice and crisp.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I can really start to imagine how discovery and trust marks =
can be used to scale trust. Although there is some additional issues =
around the overarching trust framework (whatever that is, I am assuming =
law). For example assessing trust marks so that they are appropriate for =
the purpose and also for application in the framework, with a robust =
method for assessing and asserting integrity of trust marks. &nbsp;In =
this context then I think it would be clear how the trust marks fit with =
VOT. &nbsp;Its the gap between these elements I suspect that needs to be =
further articulated and understood.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">nicely thought provoking &nbsp; =
..&nbsp;<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 30 Jun 2015, at 02:35, =
Grassi, Paul A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.grassi@nist.gov" =
class=3D"">paul.grassi@nist.gov</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I personally like the =
idea of discoverability at the onset, and the discussion that will =
follow.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">This was great to read, thanks to you and Leif for the =
work!</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2015, at 8:49 PM, "Justin Richer" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Colin, =
that=E2=80=99s a great question, because I=E2=80=99m honestly not sure =
what the answer is yet. I think that the vectors only make sense in the =
context of some kind of trust framework setup, but that sometimes those =
policies will be hard-coded at configuration time and won=E2=80=99t need =
to be dynamically bound or discovered. That said, I think the real value =
of this is going to be cross-domain where an RP could subscribe to (and =
understand) multiple trust marks and be able to validate them at =
runtime. Still, that piece might be separable enough, and perhaps =
substantive enough, to be its own draft.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That said, I figured I=E2=80=99d write =
it down down and figure out where it=E2=80=99s actually supposed to go =
later. :)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Colin Wallis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz" class=3D"" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
lang=3D"EN-NZ" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Many thanks =
Justin and Leif<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I=E2=80=99ve done a first pass/light read, and =
from that, I think it is a terrific first cut that gets us on the path =
to normalizing the discussions over the past 9 months.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Aside =
from a few tidy ups, I just have this slight concern whether all of =
Clause 7 (Discovery and Verification) is in scope for normative =
text?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I certainly appreciate =
that in most implementations and deployments, there would be a =
dependency on an operational trust framework and trustmark.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">But is it too big a stretch to make that =
normative for this work?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Just a =
thought.. and more than happy to be proven wrong..<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">J</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">Cheers<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Colin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>vot [<a =
href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin =
Richer<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:15 =
p.m.<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[VoT] Vectors of Trust =
I-D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Hi Everyone,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with =
a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks and have =
created an initial I-D of the document:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a>=
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s still a =
very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s starting to make this a =
concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in =
Prague for VoT for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99r=
e interested (and will be there in person), let me know!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">vot mailing list</span><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a></span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a></span><br =
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normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
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class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
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Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
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none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a></div></blockquote=
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From nobody Tue Jun 30 06:23:30 2015
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:23:15 -0700
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Justin and Leif, thanks for getting things moving with this draft.

The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last paragraph) the
components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; i.e., they are
just an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that are expecting
a vector to be a set of scalars, it also requires Relying Parties, for
example, to enumerate all of the types of credential management they
will accept rather than "C2 or better". This isn't a huge problem at the
current scale, but I'm concerned that the number of choices might grow.

I also have some problem with the use of the term "credential" because
it encompasses management of attributes as well as tokens, which then
overlaps with the identity proofing dimension which is, more generally,
the question of how strongly the relying party can depend on attribute
values.  I'd rather that we use the term "token" rather than
"credential" to keep these separate.

-Jim

On 6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial
> number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an
> initial I-D of the document:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00
>
> It=92s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=92s starting to make=

> this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the
> list.
>
> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who
> would like to discuss this. If you=92re interested (and will be there i=
n
> person), let me know!
>
>  =97 Justin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Justin and Leif, thanks for getting
      things moving with this draft.<br>
      <br>
      The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last paragraph)
      the components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; i.e.,
      they are just an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that
      are expecting a vector to be a set of scalars, it also requires
      Relying Parties, for example, to enumerate all of the types of
      credential management they will accept rather than "C2 or better".
      This isn't a huge problem at the current scale, but I'm concerned
      that the number of choices might grow.<br>
      <br>
      I also have some problem with the use of the term "credential"
      because it encompasses management of attributes as well as tokens,
      which then overlaps with the identity proofing dimension which is,
      more generally, the question of how strongly the relying party can
      depend on attribute values.  I'd rather that we use the term
      "token" rather than "credential" to keep these separate.<br>
      <br>
      -Jim<br>
      <br>
      On 6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4DF01AF4-CD33-4BB7-958B-FFECD37C8AFE@mit.edu"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      Hi Everyone,
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I have taken the initial strawman proposal along
        with a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks
        and have created an initial I-D of the document:</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00"
          class="">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a></div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">It’s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it’s
        starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and
        discuss it here on the list.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT
        for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you’re interested
        (and will be there in person), let me know!</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""> — Justin</div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
vot mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090101060406000104010701--


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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 11:54:24 -0400
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To: Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net>
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/vot/ZuZktVhhywTm0b48D3v5z4npxDk>
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Leif and I went back and forth on this one and decided to put a stake in =
the ground to start at. One of the biggest challenges in LoA-style =
systems has always been the overloading of the linear scale model. I=92ve =
seen passionate arguments about the ordering of otherwise similar =
components, with people willing to die for the cause on both sides. I =
think that we can side step that with the technology expression while =
still keeping the =93common sense semantics=94 of ordinals. In that =932 =
is probably better than 1 for most values of better but mostly they=92re =
just different=94.

I=92m also afraid of the growth of the space for each component, but =
hopefully by having a few definitions set good examples (like the spec =
itself) we can encourage people to summarize the categories =
appropriately, as Josh talks about in his response.

While I agree that naming things is hard, and I=92m open to new names, =
I=92m very strongly against the use of =93token=94 here. It=92s already =
far too overloaded a term. OAuth issues tokens, FIDO calls their devices =
tokens, the IETF=92s =93token binding=94 is calling something (that I=92m =
not even sure what it is) tokens, even the WS-* folks have started to =
re-cast all the WS-* stuff as =93tokens=94. I think the more precise =
term is =93primary credential=94 or =93primary user credential=94. =
Neither of these have anything to do with the attributes, but they do =
speak to how strongly bound the credential is to the account. Still, I=92m=
 open to better names.

Thanks for the feedback,
 =97 Justin

> On Jun 30, 2015, at 9:23 AM, Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Justin and Leif, thanks for getting things moving with this draft.
>=20
> The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last paragraph) the =
components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; i.e., they are =
just an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that are expecting =
a vector to be a set of scalars, it also requires Relying Parties, for =
example, to enumerate all of the types of credential management they =
will accept rather than "C2 or better". This isn't a huge problem at the =
current scale, but I'm concerned that the number of choices might grow.
>=20
> I also have some problem with the use of the term "credential" because =
it encompasses management of attributes as well as tokens, which then =
overlaps with the identity proofing dimension which is, more generally, =
the question of how strongly the relying party can depend on attribute =
values.  I'd rather that we use the term "token" rather than =
"credential" to keep these separate.
>=20
> -Jim
>=20
> On 6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:
>> Hi Everyone,
>>=20
>> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial =
number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an =
initial I-D of the document:
>>=20
>> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00>
>>=20
>> It=92s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=92s starting to =
make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on =
the list.
>>=20
>> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who =
would like to discuss this. If you=92re interested (and will be there in =
person), let me know!
>>=20
>>  =97 Justin
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_3DA89513-05CB-4F62-918E-4B0B9D50E2E6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Leif and I went back and forth on this one =
and decided to put a stake in the ground to start at. One of the biggest =
challenges in LoA-style systems has always been the overloading of the =
linear scale model. I=92ve seen passionate arguments about the ordering =
of otherwise similar components, with people willing to die for the =
cause on both sides. I think that we can side step that with the =
technology expression while still keeping the =93common sense semantics=94=
 of ordinals. In that =932 is probably better than 1 for most values of =
better but mostly they=92re just different=94.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=92m also afraid of the growth of the =
space for each component, but hopefully by having a few definitions set =
good examples (like the spec itself) we can encourage people to =
summarize the categories appropriately, as Josh talks about in his =
response.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>While I agree that =
naming things is hard, and I=92m open to new names, I=92m very strongly =
against the use of =93token=94 here. It=92s already far too overloaded a =
term. OAuth issues tokens, FIDO calls their devices tokens, the IETF=92s =
=93token binding=94 is calling something (that I=92m not even sure what =
it is) tokens, even the WS-* folks have started to re-cast all the WS-* =
stuff as =93tokens=94. I think the more precise term is =93primary =
credential=94 or =93primary user credential=94. Neither of these have =
anything to do with the attributes, but they do speak to how strongly =
bound the credential is to the account. Still, I=92m open to better =
names.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for =
the feedback,</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=97 Justin<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2015, at 9:23 AM, Jim Fenton &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fenton@bluepopcorn.net" =
class=3D"">fenton@bluepopcorn.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000" class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Justin and Leif, thanks for getting
      things moving with this draft.<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last paragraph)
      the components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; i.e.,
      they are just an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that
      are expecting a vector to be a set of scalars, it also requires
      Relying Parties, for example, to enumerate all of the types of
      credential management they will accept rather than "C2 or better".
      This isn't a huge problem at the current scale, but I'm concerned
      that the number of choices might grow.<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      I also have some problem with the use of the term "credential"
      because it encompasses management of attributes as well as tokens,
      which then overlaps with the identity proofing dimension which is,
      more generally, the question of how strongly the relying party can
      depend on attribute values.&nbsp; I'd rather that we use the term
      "token" rather than "credential" to keep these separate.<br =
class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      -Jim<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      On 6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:4DF01AF4-CD33-4BB7-958B-FFECD37C8AFE@mit.edu" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
     =20
      Hi Everyone,
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">I have taken the initial strawman proposal along
        with a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks
        and have created an initial I-D of the document:</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D""><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a><=
/div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">It=92s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully =
it=92s
        starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and
        discuss it here on the list.</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for =
VoT
        for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=92re =
interested
        (and will be there in person), let me know!</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">&nbsp;=97 Justin</div>
      <br class=3D"">
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br class=3D"">
      <pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
vot mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/vot</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br class=3D"">
  </div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:

> On Jun 30, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
> Justin, Leif,
> =20
> Thanks for this draft. I only have some general comments at this =
point. The first two concern the use of language; I might be =
hair-splitting: YMMV. The final comment is more substantive. <>
> =20
> 1. Vectors have a very specific formal meaning in mathematics. Given =
that this is an engineering community, I think there=E2=80=99s a =
possibility of creating confusion from the use of this language. You =
correctly try to disambiguate this in 2.2, but the use of different =
language would make this unnecessary.

When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of trust=E2=80=9D we knew that =
both =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms =
that were going to confuse some people but could be explained fairly =
succinctly in this context and help get the point across. I=E2=80=99m =
honestly welcome to renaming the whole shebang but for now I=E2=80=99ve =
yet to hear a better set of terms.

> =20
> 2. The draft talks of vectors of trust but actually describes types of =
evidence and attributes that can be associated with these. As you =
discuss in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which confers =
semantics on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence and =
their attributes can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a given =
trust context, but do not define it. I think it might be helpful to =
reconsider the description of this work, so that its goal is clearer to =
the reader; and set out the fundamental role of the trust context within =
the introduction/background.

It was only in this latest draft that we really started to set out the =
importance of context for a given VoT value, so I think your comments =
here are valid.=20

> =20
> 3. The goal of the draft, as I understand it, is to enable RPs and =
IdPs to share a common vocabulary of evidence and their attributes. This =
avoids the =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of evidence by =
allowing for decomposability. This evidence, now unbundled, can be =
employed in different trust contexts, facilitating interoperability =
across trust framework. So far so good? However I=E2=80=99ll note that =
the evidences and attributes described in section 3 are often themselves =
bundles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware token / trusted biometric / =
TPM-backed keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advocate, what is to stop =
actors from decomposing the core elements described in section 3? Indeed =
I think it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to permit that =
through extensions. I wonder therefore whether an excess of =
decomposability will actually aggravate interoperability between trust =
contexts. Clearly this could be addressed by setting norms, but then =
you=E2=80=99ve reinvented NIST 800-63. Alternatively you could imagine a =
taxonomy of evidence, with classes and (through extensions) sub-classes =
allowing for greater specificity, while providing for a general =
interpretation if actors do not share the same vocabulary. I hesitate to =
describe this as fractal, but I hope you can see what I=E2=80=99m =
driving at.
> =20
>=20

It could definitely be fractal, but I think it=E2=80=99s important that =
we capture something at the right level. Aggregate a bunch of vector =
values together and you get a definition like 800-63, which is still =
useful but only in its intended consequences. Break apart the vector =
components and you get into the specifics of a full trust framework =
definition, like the high granularity in the GTRI work (or Steve=E2=80=99s=
 =E2=80=9Ceverything is an attribute=E2=80=9D utopia). I think there=E2=80=
=99s value in each of those, but the value doesn=E2=80=99t really come =
at runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. That=E2=80=99s =
where I think that the VoT approach can really shine. It=E2=80=99s more =
granular than the broad sweeping definitions that authentication =
guidelines would have, but it=E2=80=99s less granular than a sea of =
attributes. We want something that an RP can hope to process and make =
sense of, and to do that we need to walk a fine line.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> Josh.
> From: vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Justin Richer
> Sent: 27 June 2015 04:15
> To: vot@ietf.org
> Subject: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
> =20
> Hi Everyone,
> =20
> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial =
number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an =
initial I-D of the document:
> =20
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00>
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s =
starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss =
it here on the list.
> =20
> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who =
would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be =
there in person), let me know!
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
> Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by =
guarantee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT =
No. GB 197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, =
Tower Hill, Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
>=20
> Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company =
limited by guarantee which is registered in England under company number =
2881024, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle =
Park, Tower Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.


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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Josh Howlett &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" =
class=3D"">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
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<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">Justin, Leif,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">Thanks for this draft.<a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""> I only have some general comments =
at this point. The first two concern the use of
 language; I might be hair-splitting: YMMV. The final comment is more =
substantive.
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></a></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">1. Vectors have a very =
specific formal meaning in mathematics. Given that this is an =
engineering community, I think there=E2=80=99s a possibility
 of creating confusion from the use of this language. You correctly try =
to disambiguate this in 2.2, but the use of different language would =
make this unnecessary.</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of =
trust=E2=80=9D we knew that both =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms that were going to confuse some =
people but could be explained fairly succinctly in this context and help =
get the point across. I=E2=80=99m honestly welcome to renaming the whole =
shebang but for now I=E2=80=99ve yet to hear a better set of =
terms.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">2. The draft talks of =
vectors of trust but actually describes types of evidence and attributes =
that can be associated with these. As
 you discuss in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which =
confers semantics on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence =
and their attributes can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a =
given trust context, but do not define it. I think
 it might be helpful to reconsider the description of this work, so that =
its goal is clearer to the reader; and set out the fundamental role of =
the trust context within the introduction/background.
</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It was only in this latest draft that we really =
started to set out the importance of context for a given VoT value, so I =
think your comments here are valid.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue"=
 vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">3. The goal of the =
draft, as I understand it, is to enable RPs and IdPs to share a common =
vocabulary of evidence and their attributes.
 This avoids the =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of =
evidence by allowing for decomposability. This evidence, now unbundled, =
can be employed in different trust contexts, facilitating =
interoperability across trust framework. So far so good? However I=E2=80=99=
ll note that
 the evidences and attributes described in section 3 are often =
themselves bundles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware token / trusted =
biometric / TPM-backed keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advocate, what =
is to stop actors from decomposing the core elements described in =
section
 3? Indeed I think it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to =
permit that through extensions. I wonder therefore whether an excess of =
decomposability will actually aggravate interoperability between trust =
contexts. Clearly this could be addressed by setting norms,
 but then you=E2=80=99ve reinvented NIST 800-63. Alternatively you could =
imagine a taxonomy of evidence, with classes and (through extensions) =
sub-classes allowing for greater specificity, while providing for a =
general interpretation if actors do not share the same
 vocabulary. I hesitate to describe this as fractal, but I hope you can =
see what I=E2=80=99m driving at.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It could definitely be fractal, but I think it=E2=80=
=99s important that we capture something at the right level. Aggregate a =
bunch of vector values together and you get a definition like 800-63, =
which is still useful but only in its intended consequences. Break apart =
the vector components and you get into the specifics of a full trust =
framework definition, like the high granularity in the GTRI work (or =
Steve=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Ceverything is an attribute=E2=80=9D utopia). I =
think there=E2=80=99s value in each of those, but the value doesn=E2=80=99=
t really come at runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. =
That=E2=80=99s where I think that the VoT approach can really shine. =
It=E2=80=99s more granular than the broad sweeping definitions that =
authentication guidelines would have, but it=E2=80=99s less granular =
than a sea of attributes. We want something that an RP can hope to =
process and make sense of, and to do that we need to walk a fine =
line.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D"">Josh.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""> vot [<a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Justin Richer<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> 27 June 2015 04:15<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Everyone,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken the initial strawman =
proposal along with a substantial number of edits and inputs from =
several folks and have created an initial I-D of the document:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a><=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty =
draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s starting to make this a concrete =
thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose a bar-BoF =
in Prague for VoT for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99=
re interested (and will be there in person), let me know!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"1" class=3D""> <font face=3D"Corbel" class=3D"">   <br =
class=3D"">
Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by =
guarantee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT =
No. GB 197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, =
Tower Hill, Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">
=20
Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company =
limited by guarantee which is registered in England under company number =
2881024, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle =
Park, Tower Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
=20
   =20
</font></font></div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F9C9E1A0-DF5D-4639-ADD1-717496541EAD--


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From: "Jones, Mark B" <Mark.B.Jones@uth.tmc.edu>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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'Credential' is just as overloaded as 'token'.  I think you just need to
pick a term and make sure it is well defined in the document.

 

The External Identity working group decided to use the term 'authenticator'.

https://spaces.internet2.edu/display/EXTID/External+Identities+Working+Group
+Report

 

 

 

From: vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Justin Richer
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:54 AM
To: Jim Fenton
Cc: vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D

 

Leif and I went back and forth on this one and decided to put a stake in the
ground to start at. One of the biggest challenges in LoA-style systems has
always been the overloading of the linear scale model. I've seen passionate
arguments about the ordering of otherwise similar components, with people
willing to die for the cause on both sides. I think that we can side step
that with the technology expression while still keeping the "common sense
semantics" of ordinals. In that "2 is probably better than 1 for most values
of better but mostly they're just different".

 

I'm also afraid of the growth of the space for each component, but hopefully
by having a few definitions set good examples (like the spec itself) we can
encourage people to summarize the categories appropriately, as Josh talks
about in his response.

 

While I agree that naming things is hard, and I'm open to new names, I'm
very strongly against the use of "token" here. It's already far too
overloaded a term. OAuth issues tokens, FIDO calls their devices tokens, the
IETF's "token binding" is calling something (that I'm not even sure what it
is) tokens, even the WS-* folks have started to re-cast all the WS-* stuff
as "tokens". I think the more precise term is "primary credential" or
"primary user credential". Neither of these have anything to do with the
attributes, but they do speak to how strongly bound the credential is to the
account. Still, I'm open to better names.

 

Thanks for the feedback,

 - Justin

 

On Jun 30, 2015, at 9:23 AM, Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net> wrote:

 

Justin and Leif, thanks for getting things moving with this draft.

The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last paragraph) the
components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; i.e., they are just
an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that are expecting a vector
to be a set of scalars, it also requires Relying Parties, for example, to
enumerate all of the types of credential management they will accept rather
than "C2 or better". This isn't a huge problem at the current scale, but I'm
concerned that the number of choices might grow.

I also have some problem with the use of the term "credential" because it
encompasses management of attributes as well as tokens, which then overlaps
with the identity proofing dimension which is, more generally, the question
of how strongly the relying party can depend on attribute values.  I'd
rather that we use the term "token" rather than "credential" to keep these
separate.

-Jim

On 6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:

Hi Everyone, 

 

I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial number
of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an initial I-D of
the document:

 

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_draf
t-2Dricher-2Dvectors-2Dof-2Dtrust-2D00&d=BQMF-g&c=6vgNTiRn9_pqCD9hKx9JgXN1Va
pJQ8JVoF8oWH1AgfQ&r=jgMu8DNgV_dycz0rYwkNbEQq36F0BI5_Zpblz7C5LhM&m=D7k8gb4TAu
copdNmcdaifmXQtO1jWHH2uV_Cj6pmYHA&s=IwCJH7ghyIh0YTbpIPjpug1zmFhB0yPqQGbyYhqr
mRw&e=> 

 

It's still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it's starting to make this a
concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.

 

I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would
like to discuss this. If you're interested (and will be there in person),
let me know!

 

 - Justin






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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
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istinfo_vot&d=BQMF-g&c=6vgNTiRn9_pqCD9hKx9JgXN1VapJQ8JVoF8oWH1AgfQ&r=jgMu8DN
gV_dycz0rYwkNbEQq36F0BI5_Zpblz7C5LhM&m=D7k8gb4TAucopdNmcdaifmXQtO1jWHH2uV_Cj
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&#8216;Credential&#8217; is just as overloaded as =
&#8216;token&#8217;.&nbsp; I think you just need to pick a term and make =
sure it is well defined in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The External Identity working group decided to use the term =
&#8216;authenticator&#8217;.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><a =
href=3D"https://spaces.internet2.edu/display/EXTID/External+Identities+Wo=
rking+Group+Report">https://spaces.internet2.edu/display/EXTID/External+I=
dentities+Working+Group+Report</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Justin =
Richer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jim =
Fenton<br><b>Cc:</b> vot@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [VoT] Vectors =
of Trust I-D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Leif =
and I went back and forth on this one and decided to put a stake in the =
ground to start at. One of the biggest challenges in LoA-style systems =
has always been the overloading of the linear scale model. I&#8217;ve =
seen passionate arguments about the ordering of otherwise similar =
components, with people willing to die for the cause on both sides. I =
think that we can side step that with the technology expression while =
still keeping the &#8220;common sense semantics&#8221; of ordinals. In =
that &#8220;2 is probably better than 1 for most values of better but =
mostly they&#8217;re just different&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I&#8217;m also afraid of the growth of the space for =
each component, but hopefully by having a few definitions set good =
examples (like the spec itself) we can encourage people to summarize the =
categories appropriately, as Josh talks about in his =
response.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>While =
I agree that naming things is hard, and I&#8217;m open to new names, =
I&#8217;m very strongly against the use of &#8220;token&#8221; here. =
It&#8217;s already far too overloaded a term. OAuth issues tokens, FIDO =
calls their devices tokens, the IETF&#8217;s &#8220;token binding&#8221; =
is calling something (that I&#8217;m not even sure what it is) tokens, =
even the WS-* folks have started to re-cast all the WS-* stuff as =
&#8220;tokens&#8221;. I think the more precise term is &#8220;primary =
credential&#8221; or &#8220;primary user credential&#8221;. Neither of =
these have anything to do with the attributes, but they do speak to how =
strongly bound the credential is to the account. Still, I&#8217;m open =
to better names.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for the feedback,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&#8212; Justin<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Jun 30, 2015, at 9:23 AM, Jim Fenton &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fenton@bluepopcorn.net">fenton@bluepopcorn.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Justin and Leif, thanks for getting things moving with =
this draft.<br><br>The biggest surprise to me is that (section 2.2, last =
paragraph) the components of the vector do not have ordinal properties; =
i.e., they are just an enumerated list. Aside from confusing people that =
are expecting a vector to be a set of scalars, it also requires Relying =
Parties, for example, to enumerate all of the types of credential =
management they will accept rather than &quot;C2 or better&quot;. This =
isn't a huge problem at the current scale, but I'm concerned that the =
number of choices might grow.<br><br>I also have some problem with the =
use of the term &quot;credential&quot; because it encompasses management =
of attributes as well as tokens, which then overlaps with the identity =
proofing dimension which is, more generally, the question of how =
strongly the relying party can depend on attribute values.&nbsp; I'd =
rather that we use the term &quot;token&quot; rather than =
&quot;credential&quot; to keep these separate.<br><br>-Jim<br><br>On =
6/26/15 8:15 PM, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Everyone, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial number =
of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an initial I-D =
of the document:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf=
.org_id_draft-2Dricher-2Dvectors-2Dof-2Dtrust-2D00&amp;d=3DBQMF-g&amp;c=3D=
6vgNTiRn9_pqCD9hKx9JgXN1VapJQ8JVoF8oWH1AgfQ&amp;r=3DjgMu8DNgV_dycz0rYwkNb=
EQq36F0BI5_Zpblz7C5LhM&amp;m=3DD7k8gb4TAucopdNmcdaifmXQtO1jWHH2uV_Cj6pmYH=
A&amp;s=3DIwCJH7ghyIh0YTbpIPjpug1zmFhB0yPqQGbyYhqrmRw&amp;e=3D">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00</a><o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>It&#8217;s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully =
it&#8217;s starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it over =
and discuss it here on the list.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would =
like to discuss this. If you&#8217;re interested (and will be there in =
person), let me know!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&#8212; Justin<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________=
________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>vot mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_vot&amp;d=3DBQMF-g&amp;c=3D6vgNTiRn9_pqCD9hKx9JgXN1Va=
pJQ8JVoF8oWH1AgfQ&amp;r=3DjgMu8DNgV_dycz0rYwkNbEQq36F0BI5_Zpblz7C5LhM&amp=
;m=3DD7k8gb4TAucopdNmcdaifmXQtO1jWHH2uV_Cj6pmYHA&amp;s=3DX0ZbIaYx4wnBo5JK=
rUCwAlSMm0NP7vycKmcLkHZBw3I&amp;e=3D">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/vot</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h=
tml>
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:25:22 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKAzxEv59DJYoRdLNYu2hJ9Y5DhZ8vsKeaTk9-jKf-XfDP8A7Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Scott Shorter <sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Cc: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Great discussion all.  I don't know if I've said it here before, but my
equation for trust goes like this:

     trust =3D 1 / risk

If we are trying to measure risk, what if this were considered a "risk
score" that is calculated from "risk metrics"?  Identity risk score, if we
want to get crazy.

I get the notion from the Common Vulnerability Scoring System (CVSS,
version 3 draft is available here
<https://www.first.org/_assets/downloads/cvss/cvss-v30-preview2-metricvecto=
rstring-december-2014.pdf>).
I think that there's a lot of similarities between vulnerability management
and credential management.  Vulnerabilities represent potential risks to
systems, and CVSS provides a way of expressing those risks.  Similarly
every credential issued represents a marginal increased risk, and our
strawperson document currently looks a lot like CVSS.

I don't know whether more harm is done by unmanaged credentials or
unmitigated vulnerabilities, but each of those should be captured in an
organization's risk registry.

My 0.02USD,
Scott

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:
>
> On Jun 30, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk> wrote=
:
>
>  Justin, Leif,
>
>
>
> Thanks for this draft. I only have some general comments at this point.
> The first two concern the use of language; I might be hair-splitting: YMM=
V.
> The final comment is more substantive.
>
>
>
> 1. Vectors have a very specific formal meaning in mathematics. Given that
> this is an engineering community, I think there=E2=80=99s a possibility o=
f creating
> confusion from the use of this language. You correctly try to disambiguat=
e
> this in 2.2, but the use of different language would make this unnecessar=
y.
>
>
> When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of trust=E2=80=9D we knew that b=
oth =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and
> =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms that were going to confuse some people=
 but could be
> explained fairly succinctly in this context and help get the point across=
.
> I=E2=80=99m honestly welcome to renaming the whole shebang but for now I=
=E2=80=99ve yet to
> hear a better set of terms.
>
>
>
> 2. The draft talks of vectors of trust but actually describes types of
> evidence and attributes that can be associated with these. As you discuss
> in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which confers semantics
> on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence and their attribute=
s
> can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a given trust context, but
> do not define it. I think it might be helpful to reconsider the descripti=
on
> of this work, so that its goal is clearer to the reader; and set out the
> fundamental role of the trust context within the introduction/background.
>
>
> It was only in this latest draft that we really started to set out the
> importance of context for a given VoT value, so I think your comments her=
e
> are valid.
>
>
>
> 3. The goal of the draft, as I understand it, is to enable RPs and IdPs t=
o
> share a common vocabulary of evidence and their attributes. This avoids t=
he
> =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of evidence by allowing for=
 decomposability.
> This evidence, now unbundled, can be employed in different trust contexts=
,
> facilitating interoperability across trust framework. So far so good?
> However I=E2=80=99ll note that the evidences and attributes described in =
section 3
> are often themselves bundles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware token / trusted=
 biometric
> / TPM-backed keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advocate, what is to stop=
 actors
> from decomposing the core elements described in section 3? Indeed I think
> it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to permit that through exte=
nsions. I
> wonder therefore whether an excess of decomposability will actually
> aggravate interoperability between trust contexts. Clearly this could be
> addressed by setting norms, but then you=E2=80=99ve reinvented NIST 800-6=
3.
> Alternatively you could imagine a taxonomy of evidence, with classes and
> (through extensions) sub-classes allowing for greater specificity, while
> providing for a general interpretation if actors do not share the same
> vocabulary. I hesitate to describe this as fractal, but I hope you can se=
e
> what I=E2=80=99m driving at.
>
>
>
>
> It could definitely be fractal, but I think it=E2=80=99s important that w=
e capture
> something at the right level. Aggregate a bunch of vector values together
> and you get a definition like 800-63, which is still useful but only in i=
ts
> intended consequences. Break apart the vector components and you get into
> the specifics of a full trust framework definition, like the high
> granularity in the GTRI work (or Steve=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Ceverything is a=
n attribute=E2=80=9D
> utopia). I think there=E2=80=99s value in each of those, but the value do=
esn=E2=80=99t
> really come at runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. That=
=E2=80=99s
> where I think that the VoT approach can really shine. It=E2=80=99s more g=
ranular
> than the broad sweeping definitions that authentication guidelines would
> have, but it=E2=80=99s less granular than a sea of attributes. We want so=
mething
> that an RP can hope to process and make sense of, and to do that we need =
to
> walk a fine line.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> Josh.
>
>   *From:* vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org <vot-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Justin Richer
> *Sent:* 27 June 2015 04:15
> *To:* vot@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
>
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>
>
> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial numbe=
r
> of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an initial I-D of
> the document:
>
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00
>
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s starti=
ng to make this a
> concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.
>
>
>
> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would
> like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be there in =
person),
> let me know!
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by
> guarantee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT N=
o.
> GB 197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, Towe=
r Hill,
> Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
>
> Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company
> limited by guarantee which is registered in England under company number
> 2881024, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle
> Park, Tower Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>


--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
*Scott Shorter, Principal Security Engineer*
Electrosoft *=E2=80=93* Fueling Customer Success Through Outstanding Value =
and
Trust!
*Woman-Owned, Minority-Owned Small Business | ISO 9001 | CMMI Level 2 *
1893 Metro Center Drive; Ste 228; Reston, VA 20190
sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com (Email);   http://www.electrosoft-inc.com (Web=
)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Great discussion all.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know if I&#39;ve s=
aid it here before, but my equation for trust goes like this:<div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trust =3D 1 / risk</div><div><br></div><div>If we=
 are trying to measure risk, what if this were considered a &quot;risk scor=
e&quot; that is calculated from &quot;risk metrics&quot;?=C2=A0 Identity ri=
sk score, if we want to get crazy.</div><div><br></div><div>I get the notio=
n from the Common Vulnerability Scoring System (CVSS, version 3 draft is av=
ailable=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.first.org/_assets/downloads/cvss/cvss-v=
30-preview2-metricvectorstring-december-2014.pdf">here</a>).=C2=A0 I think =
that there&#39;s a lot of similarities between vulnerability management and=
 credential management.=C2=A0 Vulnerabilities represent potential risks to =
systems, and CVSS provides a way of expressing those risks.=C2=A0 Similarly=
 every credential issued represents a marginal increased risk, and our stra=
wperson document currently looks a lot like CVSS.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>I don&#39;t know whether more harm is done by unmanaged credentials o=
r unmitigated vulnerabilities, but each of those should be captured in an o=
rganization&#39;s risk registry.=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>My 0.02=
USD,</div><div>Scott</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word">Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:<div><=
br><div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 30, 2015, at=
 7:22 AM, Josh Howlett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" targe=
t=3D"_blank">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>




<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Justin, Leif,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks for this draft.<a name=3D"14e45344847f4c1c__=
MailEndCompose"> I only have some general comments at this point. The first=
 two concern the use of
 language; I might be hair-splitting: YMMV. The final comment is more subst=
antive.
<u></u><u></u></a></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">1. Vectors have a very speci=
fic formal meaning in mathematics. Given that this is an engineering commun=
ity, I think there=E2=80=99s a possibility
 of creating confusion from the use of this language. You correctly try to =
disambiguate this in 2.2, but the use of different language would make this=
 unnecessary.</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></spa=
n><div>When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of trust=E2=80=9D we knew t=
hat both =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms th=
at were going to confuse some people but could be explained fairly succinct=
ly in this context and help get the point across. I=E2=80=99m honestly welc=
ome to renaming the whole shebang but for now I=E2=80=99ve yet to hear a be=
tter set of terms.</div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">2. The draft=
 talks of vectors of trust but actually describes types of evidence and att=
ributes that can be associated with these. As
 you discuss in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which confer=
s semantics on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence and their=
 attributes can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a given trust co=
ntext, but do not define it. I think
 it might be helpful to reconsider the description of this work, so that it=
s goal is clearer to the reader; and set out the fundamental role of the tr=
ust context within the introduction/background.
</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>It was=
 only in this latest draft that we really started to set out the importance=
 of context for a given VoT value, so I think your comments here are valid.=
=C2=A0</div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div lang=
=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=
=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3. The goal of the d=
raft, as I understand it, is to enable RPs and IdPs to share a common vocab=
ulary of evidence and their attributes.
 This avoids the =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of evidence =
by allowing for decomposability. This evidence, now unbundled, can be emplo=
yed in different trust contexts, facilitating interoperability across trust=
 framework. So far so good? However I=E2=80=99ll note that
 the evidences and attributes described in section 3 are often themselves b=
undles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware token / trusted biometric / TPM-backed =
keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advocate, what is to stop actors from de=
composing the core elements described in section
 3? Indeed I think it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to permit =
that through extensions. I wonder therefore whether an excess of decomposab=
ility will actually aggravate interoperability between trust contexts. Clea=
rly this could be addressed by setting norms,
 but then you=E2=80=99ve reinvented NIST 800-63. Alternatively you could im=
agine a taxonomy of evidence, with classes and (through extensions) sub-cla=
sses allowing for greater specificity, while providing for a general interp=
retation if actors do not share the same
 vocabulary. I hesitate to describe this as fractal, but I hope you can see=
 what I=E2=80=99m driving at.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></span><div>It could definitely be fractal, but I think=
 it=E2=80=99s important that we capture something at the right level. Aggre=
gate a bunch of vector values together and you get a definition like 800-63=
, which is still useful but only in its intended consequences. Break apart =
the vector components and you get into the specifics of a full trust framew=
ork definition, like the high granularity in the GTRI work (or Steve=E2=80=
=99s =E2=80=9Ceverything is an attribute=E2=80=9D utopia). I think there=E2=
=80=99s value in each of those, but the value doesn=E2=80=99t really come a=
t runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. That=E2=80=99s where=
 I think that the VoT approach can really shine. It=E2=80=99s more granular=
 than the broad sweeping definitions that authentication guidelines would h=
ave, but it=E2=80=99s less granular than a sea of attributes. We want somet=
hing that an RP can hope to process and make sense of, and to do that we ne=
ed to walk a fine line.</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div></font></span><span class=
=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Josh.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"> vot [<a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mai=
lto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Justin Richer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 June 2015 04:15<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>Hi Everyone,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken the initial strawman proposal alon=
g with a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks and have=
 created an initial I-D of the document:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-rich=
er-vectors-of-trust-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-r=
icher-vectors-of-trust-00</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hop=
efully it=E2=80=99s starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it =
over and discuss it here on the list.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for=
 VoT for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re intereste=
d (and will be there in person), let me know!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Corbel">   <br>
Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by guar=
antee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT No. GB =
197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, Tower Hil=
l, Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.<br><br>
=20
Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company limit=
ed by guarantee which is registered in England under company number 2881024=
, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle Park, Tow=
er Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
=20
   =20
</font></font></div>

</div></blockquote></span></div><br></div></div><br>_______________________=
________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:ar;font-size:10pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:ar;font-size:10pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:ar;font-size:10pt">=3D=3D</span><br></d=
iv><div><b style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Scott Shorter, Principal Security Eng=
ineer</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10pt"><br></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Franklin Gothic Demi Cond&#39;,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(38,84,124)">Electro</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Franklin Gothic Demi Cond&#39;,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,38,38=
)">soft</span><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Franklin Gothic Demi Cond&#39=
;,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,38,38)">=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"><i>=E2=80=93</i></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Frankl=
in Gothic Medium&#39;,sans-serif;color:rgb(112,0,21)">=C2=A0Fueling Custome=
r Success Through Outstanding Value and Trust!<b><br></b></span><b style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">Woman-Owned, Minority-Owne=
d Small Business | ISO 9001 | CMMI Level 2=C2=A0</span></b><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:9pt;font-family:ar"><br></span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10pt;font-family:ar">1893 Metro Center Drive; Ste 2=
28; Reston, VA 20190<br><a href=3D"mailto:sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com" sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:blue">ss=
horter@electrosoft-inc.com</span></a>=C2=A0(Email);=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a hre=
f=3D"http://www.electrosoft-inc.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:blue">http://www.electrosoft-inc.com</span=
></a>=C2=A0(Web)<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><br></div><=
/div></div>
</div></div>

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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 13:37:31 -0400
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Cc: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
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Hi,

Thanks Justin and Leif for a really thought-provoking document.

Thanks Scott for a compact equation for trust.

About terminology:

Coming from the mobile device and automotive perspectives, the use
of *anonymized* identity for privacy protection is a major requirement.

In biometrics especially, devices should send anonymized user identity
authentication info as a "token".  But the common English definition of
"credential" precludes any such anonymization.

I suggest shifting to "token" and stressing the need for anonymous (but
highly reliable through Trusted Third Parties) device and user identities.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Winter  579 Park Place  Saline, MI  48176  734-944-0094
Summer  PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434


On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Scott Shorter <
sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com> wrote:

> Great discussion all.  I don't know if I've said it here before, but my
> equation for trust goes like this:
>
>      trust =3D 1 / risk
>
> If we are trying to measure risk, what if this were considered a "risk
> score" that is calculated from "risk metrics"?  Identity risk score, if w=
e
> want to get crazy.
>
> I get the notion from the Common Vulnerability Scoring System (CVSS,
> version 3 draft is available here
> <https://www.first.org/_assets/downloads/cvss/cvss-v30-preview2-metricvec=
torstring-december-2014.pdf>).
> I think that there's a lot of similarities between vulnerability manageme=
nt
> and credential management.  Vulnerabilities represent potential risks to
> systems, and CVSS provides a way of expressing those risks.  Similarly
> every credential issued represents a marginal increased risk, and our
> strawperson document currently looks a lot like CVSS.
>
> I don't know whether more harm is done by unmanaged credentials or
> unmitigated vulnerabilities, but each of those should be captured in an
> organization's risk registry.
>
> My 0.02USD,
> Scott
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Justin, Leif,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for this draft. I only have some general comments at this point.
>> The first two concern the use of language; I might be hair-splitting: YM=
MV.
>> The final comment is more substantive.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Vectors have a very specific formal meaning in mathematics. Given tha=
t
>> this is an engineering community, I think there=E2=80=99s a possibility =
of creating
>> confusion from the use of this language. You correctly try to disambigua=
te
>> this in 2.2, but the use of different language would make this unnecessa=
ry.
>>
>>
>> When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of trust=E2=80=9D we knew that =
both =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and
>> =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms that were going to confuse some peopl=
e but could be
>> explained fairly succinctly in this context and help get the point acros=
s.
>> I=E2=80=99m honestly welcome to renaming the whole shebang but for now I=
=E2=80=99ve yet to
>> hear a better set of terms.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. The draft talks of vectors of trust but actually describes types of
>> evidence and attributes that can be associated with these. As you discus=
s
>> in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which confers semantic=
s
>> on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence and their attribut=
es
>> can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a given trust context, bu=
t
>> do not define it. I think it might be helpful to reconsider the descript=
ion
>> of this work, so that its goal is clearer to the reader; and set out the
>> fundamental role of the trust context within the introduction/background=
.
>>
>>
>> It was only in this latest draft that we really started to set out the
>> importance of context for a given VoT value, so I think your comments he=
re
>> are valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. The goal of the draft, as I understand it, is to enable RPs and IdPs
>> to share a common vocabulary of evidence and their attributes. This avoi=
ds
>> the =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of evidence by allowin=
g for
>> decomposability. This evidence, now unbundled, can be employed in differ=
ent
>> trust contexts, facilitating interoperability across trust framework. So
>> far so good? However I=E2=80=99ll note that the evidences and attributes=
 described
>> in section 3 are often themselves bundles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware t=
oken /
>> trusted biometric / TPM-backed keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advoca=
te, what is
>> to stop actors from decomposing the core elements described in section 3=
?
>> Indeed I think it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to permit t=
hat through
>> extensions. I wonder therefore whether an excess of decomposability will
>> actually aggravate interoperability between trust contexts. Clearly this
>> could be addressed by setting norms, but then you=E2=80=99ve reinvented =
NIST
>> 800-63. Alternatively you could imagine a taxonomy of evidence, with
>> classes and (through extensions) sub-classes allowing for greater
>> specificity, while providing for a general interpretation if actors do n=
ot
>> share the same vocabulary. I hesitate to describe this as fractal, but I
>> hope you can see what I=E2=80=99m driving at.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It could definitely be fractal, but I think it=E2=80=99s important that =
we
>> capture something at the right level. Aggregate a bunch of vector values
>> together and you get a definition like 800-63, which is still useful but
>> only in its intended consequences. Break apart the vector components and
>> you get into the specifics of a full trust framework definition, like th=
e
>> high granularity in the GTRI work (or Steve=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Ceverythin=
g is an attribute=E2=80=9D
>> utopia). I think there=E2=80=99s value in each of those, but the value d=
oesn=E2=80=99t
>> really come at runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. That=
=E2=80=99s
>> where I think that the VoT approach can really shine. It=E2=80=99s more =
granular
>> than the broad sweeping definitions that authentication guidelines would
>> have, but it=E2=80=99s less granular than a sea of attributes. We want s=
omething
>> that an RP can hope to process and make sense of, and to do that we need=
 to
>> walk a fine line.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> Josh.
>>
>>   *From:* vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org <vot-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Justin Richer
>> *Sent:* 27 June 2015 04:15
>> *To:* vot@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have taken the initial strawman proposal along with a substantial
>> number of edits and inputs from several folks and have created an initia=
l
>> I-D of the document:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-00
>>
>>
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hopefully it=E2=80=99s start=
ing to make this
>> a concrete thing. Please read it over and discuss it here on the list.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for VoT for anyone who would
>> like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re interested (and will be there in=
 person),
>> let me know!
>>
>>
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by
>> guarantee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT =
No.
>> GB 197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, Tow=
er Hill,
>> Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
>>
>> Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company
>> limited by guarantee which is registered in England under company number
>> 2881024, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle
>> Park, Tower Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> *Scott Shorter, Principal Security Engineer*
> Electrosoft *=E2=80=93* Fueling Customer Success Through Outstanding Valu=
e and
> Trust!
> *Woman-Owned, Minority-Owned Small Business | ISO 9001 | CMMI Level 2 *
> 1893 Metro Center Drive; Ste 228; Reston, VA 20190
> sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com (Email);   http://www.electrosoft-inc.com
>  (Web)
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>

--089e013d196a52344f0519bfaae5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<br><br>Thanks Justin and Leif for a really thought-provoking document.<=
br><br>Thanks Scott for a compact equation for trust.<br><br>About terminol=
ogy:=C2=A0 <br><br>Coming from the mobile device and automotive perspective=
s, the use <br>of *anonymized* identity for privacy protection is a major r=
equirement.<br><br>In biometrics especially, devices should send anonymized=
 user identity<br>authentication info as a &quot;token&quot;.=C2=A0 But the=
 common English definition of <br>&quot;credential&quot; precludes any such=
 anonymization.<br><br>I suggest shifting to &quot;token&quot; and stressin=
g the need for anonymous (but <br>highly reliable through Trusted Third Par=
ties) device and user identities.<br><br>Cheers,<br>- Ira<br><br clear=3D"a=
ll"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)=
<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>Chair - Linux Foundatio=
n Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Cha=
ir - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Designated Expert =
- IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br><a style=3D"=
color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br><a style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc=
" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto=
: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusi=
c@gmail.com</a><br>Winter=C2=A0 579 Park Place=C2=A0 Saline, MI=C2=A0 48176=
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:734-944-0094" value=3D"+17349440094" target=3D"_blank=
">734-944-0094</a><br>Summer=C2=A0 PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:906-494-2434" value=3D"+19064942434" target=3D"_blank=
">906-494-2434</a><br><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D=
"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div></div><div>=
</div><div></div><div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Scott Shor=
ter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">sshorter@electrosoft-inc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Great discussion all.=C2=A0 I d=
on&#39;t know if I&#39;ve said it here before, but my equation for trust go=
es like this:<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trust =3D 1 / risk</di=
v><div><br></div><div>If we are trying to measure risk, what if this were c=
onsidered a &quot;risk score&quot; that is calculated from &quot;risk metri=
cs&quot;?=C2=A0 Identity risk score, if we want to get crazy.</div><div><br=
></div><div>I get the notion from the Common Vulnerability Scoring System (=
CVSS, version 3 draft is available=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.first.org/_a=
ssets/downloads/cvss/cvss-v30-preview2-metricvectorstring-december-2014.pdf=
" target=3D"_blank">here</a>).=C2=A0 I think that there&#39;s a lot of simi=
larities between vulnerability management and credential management.=C2=A0 =
Vulnerabilities represent potential risks to systems, and CVSS provides a w=
ay of expressing those risks.=C2=A0 Similarly every credential issued repre=
sents a marginal increased risk, and our strawperson document currently loo=
ks a lot like CVSS.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t know whether=
 more harm is done by unmanaged credentials or unmitigated vulnerabilities,=
 but each of those should be captured in an organization&#39;s risk registr=
y.=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>My 0.02USD,</div><div>Scott</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div>On Tue, Jun=
 30, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word">Josh, thanks for the great comments. Responses inline:<div=
><br><div><span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 30, 2015, at 7:22 AM,=
 Josh Howlett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>




<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Justin, Leif,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks for this draft.<a name=3D"14e457f455963967_1=
4e4549f06e20dff_14e45344847f4c1c__MailEndCompose"> I only have some general=
 comments at this point. The first two concern the use of
 language; I might be hair-splitting: YMMV. The final comment is more subst=
antive.
<u></u><u></u></a></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">1. Vectors have a very speci=
fic formal meaning in mathematics. Given that this is an engineering commun=
ity, I think there=E2=80=99s a possibility
 of creating confusion from the use of this language. You correctly try to =
disambiguate this in 2.2, but the use of different language would make this=
 unnecessary.</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></spa=
n><div>When we picked the name =E2=80=9Cvectors of trust=E2=80=9D we knew t=
hat both =E2=80=9Cvector=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D were terms th=
at were going to confuse some people but could be explained fairly succinct=
ly in this context and help get the point across. I=E2=80=99m honestly welc=
ome to renaming the whole shebang but for now I=E2=80=99ve yet to hear a be=
tter set of terms.</div><span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=
=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">2. The draft talks o=
f vectors of trust but actually describes types of evidence and attributes =
that can be associated with these. As
 you discuss in section 7.1, there is a specific trust context which confer=
s semantics on these attributes ex post facto. Thus this evidence and their=
 attributes can inform runtime outcomes, in the context of a given trust co=
ntext, but do not define it. I think
 it might be helpful to reconsider the description of this work, so that it=
s goal is clearer to the reader; and set out the fundamental role of the tr=
ust context within the introduction/background.
</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>It was=
 only in this latest draft that we really started to set out the importance=
 of context for a given VoT value, so I think your comments here are valid.=
=C2=A0</div><span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div link=3D"blue" vli=
nk=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3. The goal of the draft, as I unde=
rstand it, is to enable RPs and IdPs to share a common vocabulary of eviden=
ce and their attributes.
 This avoids the =E2=80=9Cbundling=E2=80=9D of different kinds of evidence =
by allowing for decomposability. This evidence, now unbundled, can be emplo=
yed in different trust contexts, facilitating interoperability across trust=
 framework. So far so good? However I=E2=80=99ll note that
 the evidences and attributes described in section 3 are often themselves b=
undles (=E2=80=9CC5 Sealed hardware token / trusted biometric / TPM-backed =
keys). So, playing devil=E2=80=99s advocate, what is to stop actors from de=
composing the core elements described in section
 3? Indeed I think it=E2=80=99s actually a goal of this document to permit =
that through extensions. I wonder therefore whether an excess of decomposab=
ility will actually aggravate interoperability between trust contexts. Clea=
rly this could be addressed by setting norms,
 but then you=E2=80=99ve reinvented NIST 800-63. Alternatively you could im=
agine a taxonomy of evidence, with classes and (through extensions) sub-cla=
sses allowing for greater specificity, while providing for a general interp=
retation if actors do not share the same
 vocabulary. I hesitate to describe this as fractal, but I hope you can see=
 what I=E2=80=99m driving at.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></span><div>It could definitely be fractal, but I think=
 it=E2=80=99s important that we capture something at the right level. Aggre=
gate a bunch of vector values together and you get a definition like 800-63=
, which is still useful but only in its intended consequences. Break apart =
the vector components and you get into the specifics of a full trust framew=
ork definition, like the high granularity in the GTRI work (or Steve=E2=80=
=99s =E2=80=9Ceverything is an attribute=E2=80=9D utopia). I think there=E2=
=80=99s value in each of those, but the value doesn=E2=80=99t really come a=
t runtime when you need to make a contextual decision. That=E2=80=99s where=
 I think that the VoT approach can really shine. It=E2=80=99s more granular=
 than the broad sweeping definitions that authentication guidelines would h=
ave, but it=E2=80=99s less granular than a sea of attributes. We want somet=
hing that an RP can hope to process and make sense of, and to do that we ne=
ed to walk a fine line.</div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><=
div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div></font></span><span><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB"><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Josh.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D=
"EN-US"> vot [<a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mai=
lto:vot-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Justin Richer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 June 2015 04:15<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [VoT] Vectors of Trust I-D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>Hi Everyone,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken the initial strawman proposal alon=
g with a substantial number of edits and inputs from several folks and have=
 created an initial I-D of the document:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-rich=
er-vectors-of-trust-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-r=
icher-vectors-of-trust-00</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s still a very drafty draft, but hop=
efully it=E2=80=99s starting to make this a concrete thing. Please read it =
over and discuss it here on the list.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose a bar-BoF in Prague for=
 VoT for anyone who would like to discuss this. If you=E2=80=99re intereste=
d (and will be there in person), let me know!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Corbel">   <br>
Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by guar=
antee which is registered in England under Company No. 5747339, VAT No. GB =
197 0632 86. Jisc=E2=80=99s registered office is: One Castlepark, Tower Hil=
l, Bristol, BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.<br><br>
=20
Jisc Services Limited is a wholly owned Jisc subsidiary and a company limit=
ed by guarantee which is registered in England under company number 2881024=
, VAT number GB 197 0632 86. The registered office is: One Castle Park, Tow=
er Hill, Bristol BS2 0JA. T 0203 697 5800.
=20
   =20
</font></font></div>

</div></blockquote></span></div><br></div></div><br></div></div><span>_____=
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<br></span></blockquote></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:ar;font-size:10pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span=
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=3D</span><br></div><div><b style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Scott Shorter, Princ=
ipal Security Engineer</b><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10pt"><=
br></span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Franklin Gothic De=
mi Cond&#39;,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,84,124)">Electro</span><span style=3D"=
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amily:&#39;Franklin Gothic Medium&#39;,sans-serif;color:rgb(112,0,21)">=C2=
=A0Fueling Customer Success Through Outstanding Value and Trust!<b><br></b>=
</span><b style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">Woman-Ow=
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--089e013d196a52344f0519bfaae5--


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From: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>
To: 'Mark Lizar' <mark@smartspecies.com>, "Grassi, Paul A." <paul.grassi@nist.gov>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
Thread-Index: AQHQstUckGykwW32yECQR8eylo0If53EIrcAgAFfslA=
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:50:06 +0000
References: <147EE18440E5AF44834B220ED35BA530014AB1AEC1@WLGPRDMBX02.dia.govt.nz> <F54072E0-5653-49B2-A370-E1C6318E7985@mit.edu> <69B21050-7E52-4B85-8081-8DE210DE432A@nist.gov> <675F1A61-4881-4365-8138-8517B2047B91@smartspecies.com>
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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From nobody Tue Jun 30 16:58:28 2015
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From: "Bucci, Debbie (OS/ONC)" <Debbie.Bucci@hhs.gov>
To: Colin Wallis <Colin.Wallis@dia.govt.nz>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 23:58:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Clause 7 edgy on scope? (RE:  Vectors of Trust I-D)
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