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Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:24:27 +1000
From: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
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Subject: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Hi All,

I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary Credential Usage)

Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others equally untrustworthy.

We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.

This problem gets tricky quite fast:

Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different modes?)
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)

For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.

91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point back the other way!  

How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.

Chris.
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<html><head><title>Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage</title>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<body>
<span style=" font-family:'Calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=" font-family:'Calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=" font-family:'Calibri'; font-size: 12pt;"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing. &nbsp;When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks? &nbsp;what about different modes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware. &nbsp;They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think). &nbsp;Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing. &nbsp;Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point <b>back</b> the other way! &nbsp;<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
Chris.</body></html>
------------12616C0D522B73CB1--


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From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:11:50 +0100
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To: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Hi,

I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are
related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
coming in half way through the drafting tho.

I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around
the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try
and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its of
no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data in
the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that
could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.

It feels like we need to do more work in this area.

Regards,

Julian.

On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
> Credential Usage)
>
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce,
> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used
> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
> scenarios.
>
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
> modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)
>
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a
> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most
> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Much
> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one
> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into
> revealing them to spoof sites.
>
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector
> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
> *back* the other way!
>
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a
> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range
> of (and all common) modern threats.
>
> Chris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have a number of comments and que=
stions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by Ch=
ris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting=
 tho.</div><div><br></div><div>I, like Chris, also think there needs to be =
something more explicit around the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authenti=
cation which includes the measures to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things (=
like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know ab=
out the maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to me=
 if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear o=
n their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let =
anyone generate a valid authentication response.</div><div><br></div><div>I=
t feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Julian.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">cnd@geek=
.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><=
font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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References: <1523279479.20160508222427@CryptoPhoto.com> <CAL4gWiJDg4CDFpwGm-AAJXig9f8HXYNyCRUrm+yirs5ntSfiNw@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99=
d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication =
transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the =
IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it =
can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and =
associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the =
same regardless of the transaction.=20

This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to =
interpret the VoT in.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of =
which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my =
misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>=20
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit =
around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the =
measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one =
step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's =
"security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but =
store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of =
administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid =
authentication response.
>=20
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Julian.
>=20
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au =
<mailto:cnd@geek.net.au>> wrote:
> Hi All,
>=20
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02> (Primary =
Credential Usage)
>=20
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to =
prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, =
malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, =
Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others equally untrustworthy.
>=20
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the =
authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques =
used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common =
attack scenarios.
>=20
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>=20
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who =
works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about =
different modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to =
whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were =
mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were =
mitigated?)
>=20
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with =
biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in =
most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - =
and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their =
own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you =
think).  Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are =
two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end =
user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.
>=20
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every =
vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to =
point back the other way! =20
>=20
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an =
RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual =
authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide =
range of (and all common) modern threats.
>=20
> Chris.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>
>=20
>=20
> =
<draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>___________________________________=
____________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot


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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as =
they=E2=80=99d really be related to the IdP itself and not the =
authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the =
security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of =
the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery =
documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going =
to remain the same regardless of the transaction.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is also part of why you need to =
have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" class=3D"">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have a number of comments and =
questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised =
by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the =
drafting tho.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I,=
 like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to =
try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step =
further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's =
"security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but =
store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of =
administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid =
authentication response.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Julian.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May =
2016 at 13:24, Chris <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Hi =
All,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a =
style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a=
><span style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" class=3D""> =
(Primary Credential Usage)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Mutual-authentication is missing.&nbsp; When no provision is made to =
prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, =
malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, =
Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others <b class=3D"">equally</b> =
untrustworthy.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the =
authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques =
used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common =
attack scenarios.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works =
out their resistance strength to common attacks? &nbsp;what about =
different modes?)<br class=3D"">
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether =
or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br =
class=3D"">
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were =
mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were =
mitigated?)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with =
biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a broken SSL warning, or has malware.&nbsp; They're also equally useless =
in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls =
- and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their =
own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you =
think).&nbsp; Much more common authentication "protection" of course, =
are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an =
end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br class=3D"">=

<br class=3D"">
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.&nbsp; Right now, every =
vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to =
point <b class=3D"">back</b> the other way! &nbsp;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP =
a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual =
authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide =
range of (and all common) modern threats.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
vot mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">=

<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
<span =
id=3D"cid:B47E49AE-8896-4959-93D7-E98F5283F3A7@entwguest.com">&lt;draft-ri=
cher-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;</span>__________________________________=
_____________<br class=3D"">vot mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br =
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class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
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Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:49:16 +0100
Message-ID: <CAL4gWiJJtsEPk=5+vrtQpx4zsV04jjtZPh0CpxZs7cPBJxJa5w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
trustmark.

Julian
On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n
> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed
> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published =
as
> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks.=
 This is
> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transactio=
n.
>
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpre=
t
> the VoT in.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit aroun=
d
> the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to t=
ry
> and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
> that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its =
of
> no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data =
in
> the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors th=
at
> could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.
>
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
>> Credential Usage)
>>
>> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
>> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
>> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, =
Ce,
>> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>>
>> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
>> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques u=
sed
>> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
>> scenarios.
>>
>> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>>
>> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
>> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
>> modes?)
>> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
>> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
>> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
>> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigate=
d?)
>>
>> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
>> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to=
 a
>> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in mos=
t
>> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
>> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
>> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  M=
uch
>> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms o=
ne
>> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked i=
nto
>> revealing them to spoof sites.
>>
>> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vecto=
r
>> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
>> *back* the other way!
>>
>> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP =
a
>> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
>> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide ran=
ge
>> of (and all common) modern threats.
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>
>>
> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the des=
cription of the trustmark.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Julian</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Richer&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br ty=
pe=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word">We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as th=
ey=E2=80=99d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication=
 transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the I=
dP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can b=
e published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated=
 trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the same regardle=
ss of the transaction.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>This is also part of why yo=
u need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.<br><div><br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div>On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhi=
te@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have a number of comments and qu=
estions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by C=
hris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the draftin=
g tho.</div><div><br></div><div>I, like Chris, also think there needs to be=
 something more explicit around the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authent=
ication which includes the measures to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things =
(like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know a=
bout the maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to m=
e if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear =
on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let=
 anyone generate a valid authentication response.</div><div><br></div><div>=
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Julian.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">cnd@gee=
k.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<span><font color=3D"#88=
8888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<span>&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;</span>_________________=
______________________________<br>vot mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:vot=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/vot</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div>

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Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 10:57:43 +1000
From: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
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Cc: vot@ietf.org, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Hi All,

I think this is unreasonable.

Trust is a two-way street.

The standard will be more-or-less useless to everyone when half of the necessary trust system is excluded/out-of-scope.

Decisions related to trust need technical data.  If I'm relying on an IdP - it makes a difference if the user typed a 4 digit PIN over HTTP, as opposed to using a biometric multi-factor auth over TLS with HSTS & Pinning with included anti-spoof and anti-malware protection.  "What went on" absolutely needs technical inclusion.

Kind Regards,
Chris Drake


Friday, May 13, 2016, 4:49:16 AM, you wrote:


That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the trustmark.
Julian
On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they’d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP’s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transaction. 

This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.

 — Justin

On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:

Hi,

I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.

I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.

It feels like we need to do more work in this area.

Regards,

Julian.

On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
Hi All,

I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary Credential Usage)

Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others equally untrustworthy.

We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.

This problem gets tricky quite fast:

Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different modes?)
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)

For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.

91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point back the other way!  

How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.

Chris.

_______________________________________________
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<draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>_______________________________________________
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<html><head><title>Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage</title>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body>
<span style=" font-family:'Calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think this is unreasonable.<br>
<br>
Trust is a two-way street.<br>
<br>
The standard will be more-or-less useless to everyone when half of the necessary trust system is excluded/out-of-scope.<br>
<br>
Decisions related to trust need technical data. &nbsp;If I'm relying on an IdP - it makes a difference if the user typed a 4 digit PIN over HTTP, as opposed to using a biometric multi-factor auth over TLS with HSTS &amp; Pinning with included anti-spoof and anti-malware protection. &nbsp;"What went on" absolutely needs technical inclusion.<br>
<br>
Kind Regards,<br>
Chris Drake<br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 4:49:16 AM, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><table>
<tr>
<td width=2 bgcolor= #0000ff><br>
</td>
<td><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the trustmark.<br>
Julian<br>
On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they’d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP’s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transaction. <br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.<br>
<br>
 — Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:cnd@geek.net.au">cnd@geek.net.au</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing. &nbsp;When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks? &nbsp;what about different modes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware. &nbsp;They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think). &nbsp;Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing. &nbsp;Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point <b>back</b> the other way! &nbsp;<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=" color: #888888;">Chris.<br>
<br>
<span style=" color: #000000;">_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
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<br>
<span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a></td>
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From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 08:52:55 +0100
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Justin,

For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based
on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.

Thanks,

Julian.

On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:

> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
> trustmark.
>
> Julian
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
>> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transacti=
on
>> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is rela=
ted
>> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published=
 as
>> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks=
. This is
>> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transacti=
on.
>>
>> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to
>> interpret the VoT in.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
>> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstandin=
g
>> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>>
>> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit
>> around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measu=
res
>> to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step
>> further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's
>> "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but
>> store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of
>> administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid
>> authentication response.
>>
>> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Julian.
>>
>> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
>>> Credential Usage)
>>>
>>> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
>>> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
>>> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd,=
 Ce,
>>> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>>>
>>> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
>>> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques =
used
>>> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>>>
>>> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who work=
s
>>> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
>>> modes?)
>>> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whethe=
r
>>> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
>>> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
>>> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigat=
ed?)
>>>
>>> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
>>> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention t=
o a
>>> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in mo=
st
>>> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
>>> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
>>> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  =
Much
>>> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms =
one
>>> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked =
into
>>> revealing them to spoof sites.
>>>
>>> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every
>>> vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to
>>> point *back* the other way!
>>>
>>> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP
>>> a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
>>> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide ra=
nge
>>> of (and all common) modern threats.
>>>
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> vot mailing list
>>> vot@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>>
>>>
>> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>
>>
>>

--001a11c3a52a3941690532b491b3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin,<div><br></div><div>For my own clarity, can the RP =
pass a request for a specific trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will=
 accept? The text seems to imply that they will get whatever trustmark the =
IdP sends and have to make a decision based on that each time. In reality, =
since the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I susp=
ect RP&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it see=
ms inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP wo=
n&#39;t accept.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>J=
ulian.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">That makes sense, tho th=
at didn&#39;t come across in the description of the trustmark.</p><span cla=
ss=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Julian</p></font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"=
h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Richer&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word">We explicitly left those kinds of things out o=
f the vector as they=E2=80=99d really be related to the IdP itself and not =
the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the=
 security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of th=
e IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery docume=
nts and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain=
 the same regardless of the transaction.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>This is a=
lso part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT i=
n.<br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><br><div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div>On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have a number =
of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the =
issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way t=
hrough the drafting tho.</div><div><br></div><div>I, like Chris, also think=
 there needs to be something more explicit around the &quot;security&quot; =
of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect &#3=
9;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I a=
lso want to know about the maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, =
its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the =
data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-do=
ors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>It feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Julian.</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May 2016 at 13=
:24, Chris <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=
=3D"_blank">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<span><font color=3D"#88=
8888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<span>&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;</span>_________________=
______________________________<br>vot mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:vot=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/vot</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:48:21 +1000
From: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
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Cc: vot@ietf.org, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Hi Julian,

It is like I said at the start.  The entirety of the trustmark idea evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, because it's all only unidirectional.

You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.  It is a two-way street.  For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 == Ca == Cb == Cd == Ce == Cf.

I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last Concorde's runway.  This is the show stopper.

Chris.


Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:


Justin,

For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.

Thanks,

Julian.

On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the trustmark.
Julian
On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they’d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP’s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transaction. 

This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.

 — Justin

On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:

Hi,

I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.

I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.

It feels like we need to do more work in this area.

Regards,

Julian.

On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
Hi All,

I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary Credential Usage)

Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others equally untrustworthy.

We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.

This problem gets tricky quite fast:

Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different modes?)
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)

For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.

91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point back the other way!  

How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.

Chris.

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot

<draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>_______________________________________________
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<html><head><title>Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage</title>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body>
<span style=" font-family:'Calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
It is like I said at the start. &nbsp;The entirety of the trustmark idea evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, because it's all only unidirectional.<br>
<br>
You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends. &nbsp;It is a <b>two-way </b>street. &nbsp;For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 == Ca == Cb == Cd == Ce == Cf.<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last Concorde's runway. &nbsp;This is the show stopper.<br>
<br>
Chris.<br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><table>
<tr>
<td width=2 bgcolor= #0000ff><br>
</td>
<td><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">Justin,<br>
<br>
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the trustmark.<br>
<span style=" color: #888888;">Julian<br>
<span style=" color: #000000;">On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" &lt;</span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they’d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP’s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transaction. <br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT in.<br>
<br>
 — Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:cnd@geek.net.au">cnd@geek.net.au</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing. &nbsp;When no provision is made to prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works out their resistance strength to common attacks? &nbsp;what about different modes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken SSL warning, or has malware. &nbsp;They're also equally useless in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think). &nbsp;Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing. &nbsp;Right now, every vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point <b>back</b> the other way! &nbsp;<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=" color: #888888;">Chris.<br>
<br>
<span style=" color: #000000;">_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span></span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br>
<span style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;">&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span><a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=" font-family:'calibri'; font-size: 12pt;" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a></td>
</tr>
</table>
<br><br>
<br>
</body></html>
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From: Peter Alterman <palterman@safe-biopharma.org>
To: vot@ietf.org
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That raises the issue of what kind of machine readable metadata should
represent the trustmark?
Peter
On May 13, 2016 5:48 AM, <vot-request@ietf.org> wrote:

> Send vot mailing list submissions to
>         vot@ietf.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         vot-request@ietf.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         vot-owner@ietf.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of vot digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage (Julian White)
>    2. Re: Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage (Chris)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
> Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 08:52:55 +0100
> Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
> Justin,
>
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, o=
r
> list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
> will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision bas=
ed
> on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
> cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
> they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
> response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
>> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
>> trustmark.
>>
>> Julian
>> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=
=80=99d
>>> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transact=
ion
>>> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is rel=
ated
>>> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be publishe=
d as
>>> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust mark=
s. This is
>>> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transact=
ion.
>>>
>>> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to
>>> interpret the VoT in.
>>>
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>
>>> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
>>> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstandi=
ng
>>> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>>>
>>> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit
>>> around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the meas=
ures
>>> to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step
>>> further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's
>>> "security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials bu=
t
>>> store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of
>>> administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid
>>> authentication response.
>>>
>>> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Julian.
>>>
>>> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
>>>> Credential Usage)
>>>>
>>>> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to preven=
t
>>>> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
>>>> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd=
, Ce,
>>>> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>>>>
>>>> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
>>>> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques=
 used
>>>> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attac=
k
>>>> scenarios.
>>>>
>>>> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>>>>
>>>> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who
>>>> works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about
>>>> different modes?)
>>>> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to
>>>> whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
>>>> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
>>>> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitiga=
ted?)
>>>>
>>>> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
>>>> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention =
to a
>>>> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in m=
ost
>>>> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
>>>> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
>>>> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think). =
 Much
>>>> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms=
 one
>>>> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked=
 into
>>>> revealing them to spoof sites.
>>>>
>>>> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every
>>>> vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to
>>>> point *back* the other way!
>>>>
>>>> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an R=
P
>>>> a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
>>>> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide r=
ange
>>>> of (and all common) modern threats.
>>>>
>>>> Chris.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> vot mailing list
>>>> vot@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>>>
>>>>
>>> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> vot mailing list
>>> vot@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
> To: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
> Cc: vot@ietf.org, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:48:21 +1000
> Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
> Hi Julian,
>
> It is like I said at the start.  The entirety of the trustmark idea
> evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy,
> because it's all only unidirectional.
>
> You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.  It is a *two-way *street=
.
> For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=
=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd
> =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.
>
> I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that las=
t
> Concorde's runway.  This is the show stopper.
>
> Chris.
>
>
> Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:
>
>
> Justin,
>
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, o=
r
> list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
> will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision bas=
ed
> on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
> cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
> they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
> response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
> trustmark.
> Julian
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n
> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed
> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published =
as
> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks.=
 This is
> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transactio=
n.
>
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpre=
t
> the VoT in.
>
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit aroun=
d
> the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to t=
ry
> and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
> that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its =
of
> no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data =
in
> the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors th=
at
> could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.
>
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
> Credential Usage)
>
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, C=
e,
> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques us=
ed
> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
> scenarios.
>
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
> modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated=
?)
>
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a
> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most
> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Mu=
ch
> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms on=
e
> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked in=
to
> revealing them to spoof sites.
>
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector
> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
> *back* the other way!
>
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a
> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide rang=
e
> of (and all common) modern threats.
>
> Chris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>__________________________________=
_____________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">That raises the issue of what kind of machine readable metad=
ata should represent the trustmark? <br>
Peter </p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 13, 2016 5:48 AM,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
vot-request@ietf.org">vot-request@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attrib=
ution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send vot mailing list submissions to<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/vot</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body &#39;help&#39; to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:vot-request@ietf.org">vot-req=
uest@ietf.org</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:vot-owner@ietf.org">vot-owner=
@ietf.org</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than &quot;Re: Contents of vot digest...&quot;<br>
<br>Today&#39;s Topics:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage (Julian =
White)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage (Chris)<=
br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Julian White =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt;<br>To:=C2=A0=
Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt=
;<br>Cc:=C2=A0Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au">cnd@geek.net.au<=
/a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>Date:=C2=A0Fri=
, 13 May 2016 08:52:55 +0100<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [VoT] Security Problem wi=
th Primary Credential Usage<br><div dir=3D"ltr">Justin,<div><br></div><div>=
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or =
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they w=
ill get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based =
on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a c=
umbersome manual process I suspect RP&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that =
they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a respo=
nse under a trustmark the RP won&#39;t accept.</div><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks,</div><div><br></div><div>Julian.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">jwhit=
e@nu-d.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=
=3D"ltr">That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the descripti=
on of the trustmark.</p><span><font color=3D"#888888">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Julian</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Richer&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word">We explicitly left those kinds of things out o=
f the vector as they=E2=80=99d really be related to the IdP itself and not =
the authentication transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the=
 security of the IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of th=
e IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery docume=
nts and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain=
 the same regardless of the transaction.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>This is a=
lso part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret the VoT i=
n.<br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div><br><div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div>On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have a number =
of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are related to the =
issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way t=
hrough the drafting tho.</div><div><br></div><div>I, like Chris, also think=
 there needs to be something more explicit around the &quot;security&quot; =
of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to try and detect &#3=
9;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in that I a=
lso want to know about the maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, =
its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the =
data in the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-do=
ors that could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>It feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Julian.</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May 2016 at 13=
:24, Chris <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=
=3D"_blank">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<span><font color=3D"#88=
8888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<span>&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;</span>_________________=
______________________________<br>vot mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:vot=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/vot</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Chris &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;<br>To:=C2=A0Julian =
White &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc:=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a>, Justin Richer &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>Date:=C2=A0Fri=
, 13 May 2016 19:48:21 +1000<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [VoT] Security Problem wi=
th Primary Credential Usage<br>


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
It is like I said at the start.=C2=A0 The entirety of the trustmark idea ev=
aluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, becau=
se it&#39;s all only unidirectional.<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.=C2=A0 It is a <b>two-wa=
y </b>street.=C2=A0 For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, =
C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last =
Concorde&#39;s runway.=C2=A0 This is the show stopper.<br>
<br>
Chris.<br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><table>
<tr>
<td width=3D"2" bgcolor=3D"#0000ff"><br>
</td>
<td><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Justin,<br=
>
<br>
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or =
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they w=
ill get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based =
on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a c=
umbersome manual process I suspect RP&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that =
they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a respo=
nse under a trustmark the RP won&#39;t accept.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-family:&#=
39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_=
blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font=
-size:12pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the description of the=
 trustmark.<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Julian<br>
<span style=3D"color:#000000">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Richer&quo=
t; &lt;</span></span></span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-=
size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.ed=
u</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99=
d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published=
 as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust mark=
s. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the t=
ransaction. <br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret =
the VoT in.<br>
<br>
 =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;=
;font-size:12pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are=
 related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding comi=
ng in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authentication which includes the measu=
res to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one=
 step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP&#39=
;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to me if they have really good crede=
ntials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load =
of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authent=
ication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calib=
ri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">c=
nd@geek.net.au</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12=
pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Chris.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#000000">_____________________________________________=
__<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span></span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12=
pt" href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">&lt;draft-rich=
er-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;____________________________________________=
___<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"ma=
ilto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/vot</a></td>
</tr>
</table>
<br><br>
<br>
</div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>

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From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:12:14 +0100
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Cc: vot@ietf.org, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Chris,

Yes I see your point, so the RP should assert with which trustmarks it
complies too?

Regards,

On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:

> Hi Julian,
>
> It is like I said at the start.  The entirety of the trustmark idea
> evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy,
> because it's all only unidirectional.
>
> You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.  It is a *two-way *street=
.
> For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=
=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd
> =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.
>
> I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that las=
t
> Concorde's runway.  This is the show stopper.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
> Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:
>
>
> Justin,
>
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, o=
r
> list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
> will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision bas=
ed
> on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
> cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
> they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
> response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
> trustmark.
> Julian
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n
> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed
> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published =
as
> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks.=
 This is
> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transactio=
n.
>
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpre=
t
> the VoT in.
>
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit aroun=
d
> the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to t=
ry
> and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
> that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its =
of
> no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data =
in
> the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors th=
at
> could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.
>
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
> Credential Usage)
>
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, C=
e,
> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques us=
ed
> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
> scenarios.
>
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
> modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated=
?)
>
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a
> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most
> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Mu=
ch
> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms on=
e
> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked in=
to
> revealing them to spoof sites.
>
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector
> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
> *back* the other way!
>
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a
> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide rang=
e
> of (and all common) modern threats.
>
> Chris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>__________________________________=
_____________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Chris,<div><br></div><div>Yes I see your point, so the RP =
should assert with which trustmarks it complies too?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regards,</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
It is like I said at the start.=C2=A0 The entirety of the trustmark idea ev=
aluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, becau=
se it&#39;s all only unidirectional.<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.=C2=A0 It is a <b>two-wa=
y </b>street.=C2=A0 For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, =
C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last =
Concorde&#39;s runway.=C2=A0 This is the show stopper.<span class=3D"HOEnZb=
"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</div></div></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><table>
<tbody><tr>
<td width=3D"2" bgcolor=3D"#0000ff"><br>
</td>
<td><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">Justin,<br=
>
<br>
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or =
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they w=
ill get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based =
on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a c=
umbersome manual process I suspect RP&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that =
they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a respo=
nse under a trustmark the RP won&#39;t accept.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-family:&#=
39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_=
blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font=
-size:12pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the description of the=
 trustmark.<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Julian<br>
<span style=3D"color:#000000">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Richer&quo=
t; &lt;</span></span></span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-=
size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.ed=
u</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99=
d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published=
 as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust mark=
s. This is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the t=
ransaction. <br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret =
the VoT in.<br>
<br>
 =E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jwhite@nu-d.com</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;=
;font-size:12pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are=
 related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding comi=
ng in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authentication which includes the measu=
res to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one=
 step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP&#39=
;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to me if they have really good crede=
ntials but store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load =
of administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid authent=
ication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calib=
ri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">c=
nd@geek.net.au</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12=
pt">&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt"> (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others <b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and &q=
uot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their o=
wn privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as &quot;protected&quot; as you =
think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication &quot;protection&quot; of cou=
rse, are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an=
 end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point <b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Chris.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#000000">_____________________________________________=
__<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span></span><a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12=
pt" href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/vot</a><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt">&lt;draft-rich=
er-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;____________________________________________=
___<br>
vot mailing list<br>
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ilto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a style=3D"font-family:&#39;calibri&#39;;font-size:12pt" href=3D"https://w=
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ilman/listinfo/vot</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<br><br>
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</div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
To: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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From: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:43:16 +0100
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To: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Josh,

That is a good question, and equally applicable to how would an RP verify
the claim of an IdP?

I think there are only a few usable options;

1) There is a direct relationship between the parties that assures the
trustworthiness between themselves outside of the assertion and will only
accept requests/responses from each other (via some means not defined here)
- this kind of makes the VoT value superfluous since the answer is already
known.

2) The trust schemes operate some sort of registry that the VoT links too -
but then there also needs to be something that makes it impossible for me
to impersonate a member of that scheme in the VoT, this is slightly more
challenging.

Does that make sense?

Julian

On 13 May 2016 at 12:26, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk> wrote:

> How does the IdP verify the RP=E2=80=99s authority to claim compliance?
>
>
>
> *From:* vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Julian White
> *Sent:* 13 May 2016 12:12
> *To:* Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
> *Cc:* vot@ietf.org; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> Yes I see your point, so the RP should assert with which trustmarks it
> complies too?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
>
> Hi Julian,
>
> It is like I said at the start.  The entirety of the trustmark idea
> evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy,
> because it's all only unidirectional.
>
> You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.  It is a *two-way *street=
.
> For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=
=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd
> =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.
>
> I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that las=
t
> Concorde's runway.  This is the show stopper.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
>
> Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, o=
r
> list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
> will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision bas=
ed
> on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
> cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
> they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
> response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
> trustmark.
> Julian
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n
> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed
> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published =
as
> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks.=
 This is
> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transactio=
n.
>
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpre=
t
> the VoT in.
>
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit aroun=
d
> the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to t=
ry
> and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
> that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its =
of
> no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data =
in
> the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors th=
at
> could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.
>
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
> Credential Usage)
>
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, C=
e,
> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques us=
ed
> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
> scenarios.
>
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
> modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated=
?)
>
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a
> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most
> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Mu=
ch
> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms on=
e
> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked in=
to
> revealing them to spoof sites.
>
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector
> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
> *back* the other way!
>
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a
> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide rang=
e
> of (and all common) modern threats.
>
> Chris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>__________________________________=
_____________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>Josh,<div><br></div><div>That is a good que=
stion, and equally applicable to how would an RP verify the claim of an IdP=
?</div><div><br></div><div>I think there are only a few usable options;=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>1) There is a direct relationship between the =
parties that assures the trustworthiness between themselves=C2=A0outside of=
 the assertion=C2=A0and will only accept requests/responses from each other=
 (via some means not defined here) - this kind of makes the VoT value super=
fluous since the answer is already known.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>2)=
 The trust schemes operate some sort of registry that the VoT links too - b=
ut then there also needs to be something that makes it impossible for me to=
 impersonate a member of that scheme in the VoT, this is slightly more chal=
lenging.</div><div><br></div><div>Does that make sense?</div><div><br></div=
><div>Julian</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On 13 May 2016 at 12:26, Josh Howlett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.=
uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How does the IdP verify the RP=E2=80=
=99s authority to claim compliance?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_514860643337274381__MailEndCompose"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
vot [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Julian White<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 May 2016 12:12<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">c=
nd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</=
a>; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">=
jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage<u>=
</u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris,<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes I see your point, so the RP should assert with w=
hich trustmarks it complies too?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
It is like I said at the start.=C2=A0 The entirety of the trustmark idea ev=
aluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, becau=
se it&#39;s all only unidirectional.<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.=C2=A0 It is a <b>two-wa=
y </b>street.=C2=A0 For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, =
C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last =
Concorde&#39;s runway.=C2=A0 This is the show stopper.<span style=3D"color:=
#888888"><br>
<br>
<span>Chris.</span></span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"3" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"2" style=3D"width:1.0pt;background:blue;padding:.75pt .75pt .7=
5pt .75pt">
</td>
<td style=3D"padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Justin,<br>
<br>
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or =
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they w=
ill get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based =
on that each time. In reality, since
 the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect R=
P&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems in=
efficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP won&#39=
;t accept.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@n=
u-d.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif">jwhite@nu-d.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt; wrote:<br>
That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the description of the=
 trustmark.<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Julian<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Riche=
r&quot; &lt;</span></span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">jricher@mit.=
edu</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&g=
t;
 wrote:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99=
d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed to the trust framework and assessment
 of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery =
documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to =
remain the same regardless of the transaction.
<br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret =
the VoT in.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jwh=
ite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif">jwhite@nu-d.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are=
 related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding comi=
ng in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authentication which includes the measu=
res to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one=
 step further in that I also want to know about the
 maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to me if the=
y have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their=
 website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone =
generate a valid authentication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">cnd@geek.net.au</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif">&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</span></a><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others
<b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet
 inspection firewalls - and &quot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from D=
PI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as=
 &quot;protected&quot; as you think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication=
 &quot;protection&quot; of course, are two-step or sms one time codes
 - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing=
 them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point
<b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Chris.<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">________________________________________=
_______<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">vot@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/vot</span></a><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;draft-richer=
-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;______________________________________________=
_<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">vot@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/vot</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
To: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 08:14:33 -0700
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From: Andrew Hughes <andrewhughes3000@gmail.com>
To: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "vot@ietf.org" <vot@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Josh: the discussion about compatible policy frameworks does already take
place, typically under the names: trust framework, federation agreements,
inter-federation. You see elements of this in national schemes in NZ, US,
UK, EU, CA and others - perhaps less so right now on the 'open internet' ,
but there's work happening in a number of pockets on this (R&E is quite
advanced).

The semantic compatibility is coming soon-ish. There's a convergence
underway on standardization of descriptions for roles, responsibilities,
business functions and business processes for identification,
authentication, authorization and access control systems ("Identity
Systems"). I'm contributing to diacc.ca and kantarainitiative.org along
these lines, and starting to learn what ISO/IEC JTC 1 SC 27 WG 5 (Identity
and Privacy) is developing.

andrew.

*Andrew Hughes *CISM CISSP
Independent Consultant
*In Turn Information Management Consulting*

o  +1 650.209.7542
m +1 250.888.9474
1249 Palmer Road,
Victoria, BC V8P 2H8
AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com
ca.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-hughes/a/58/682/
*Identity Management | IT Governance | Information Security *

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Julian,
>
>
>
> Yes, but note that (2) is actually an instance of (1), but where the
> number of parties happens to be greater than two. The choice of whether t=
o
> use an internal or external registry is just an operational question.
> However, I don=E2=80=99t think this makes VoT superfluous: it still has v=
alue as a
> way of signalling alternate semantics defined within the trustmark
> agreement.
>
>
>
> This does, however, suggest to me that VoT has limited utility when
> working across arbitrary trustmark agreements. And so to be candid, and
> without wishing to sound dispiriting, I suspect that working on the
> technical signalling without understanding how these agreements can be
> bound together is possibly premature; at least if you want something of
> general utility. More attention is needed on composable policy frameworks
> having compatible semantics, linked to an underlying legal architecture
> that works transitively across those agreements. Being the IETF, I
> understand that this probably isn=E2=80=99t the venue for that discussion=
 J
>
>
>
> Josh.
>
>
>
> *From:* Julian White [mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com]
> *Sent:* 13 May 2016 13:43
> *To:* Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
> *Cc:* Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>; vot@ietf.org; Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
>
>
>
>
>
> Josh,
>
>
>
> That is a good question, and equally applicable to how would an RP verify
> the claim of an IdP?
>
>
>
> I think there are only a few usable options;
>
>
>
> 1) There is a direct relationship between the parties that assures the
> trustworthiness between themselves outside of the assertion and will only
> accept requests/responses from each other (via some means not defined her=
e)
> - this kind of makes the VoT value superfluous since the answer is alread=
y
> known.
>
>
>
> 2) The trust schemes operate some sort of registry that the VoT links too
> - but then there also needs to be something that makes it impossible for =
me
> to impersonate a member of that scheme in the VoT, this is slightly more
> challenging.
>
>
>
> Does that make sense?
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> On 13 May 2016 at 12:26, Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> How does the IdP verify the RP=E2=80=99s authority to claim compliance?
>
>
>
> *From:* vot [mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Julian White
> *Sent:* 13 May 2016 12:12
> *To:* Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>
> *Cc:* vot@ietf.org; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> Yes I see your point, so the RP should assert with which trustmarks it
> complies too?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
>
> Hi Julian,
>
> It is like I said at the start.  The entirety of the trustmark idea
> evaluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy,
> because it's all only unidirectional.
>
> You can't solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.  It is a *two-way *street=
.
> For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=
=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd
> =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.
>
> I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that las=
t
> Concorde's runway.  This is the show stopper.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
>
> Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, o=
r
> list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they
> will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision bas=
ed
> on that each time. In reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a
> cumbersome manual process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that
> they will accept so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a
> response under a trustmark the RP won't accept.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of the
> trustmark.
> Julian
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d
> really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n
> to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed
> to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published =
as
> part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks.=
 This is
> information that is going to remain the same regardless of the transactio=
n.
>
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpre=
t
> the VoT in.
>
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which
> are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding
> coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>
> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit aroun=
d
> the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to t=
ry
> and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step further in
> that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's "security", its =
of
> no use to me if they have really good credentials but store all the data =
in
> the clear on their website or have a load of administrative back-doors th=
at
> could let anyone generate a valid authentication response.
>
> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julian.
>
> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 (Primary
> Credential Usage)
>
> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to prevent
> man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or
> other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, C=
e,
> Cf, and others *equally* untrustworthy.
>
> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the
> authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques us=
ed
> or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack
> scenarios.
>
> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>
> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works
> out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about different
> modes?)
> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether
> or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were
> mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated=
?)
>
> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with
> biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a
> broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in most
> corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - and
> "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their own
> privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you think).  Mu=
ch
> more common authentication "protection" of course, are two-step or sms on=
e
> time codes - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked in=
to
> revealing them to spoof sites.
>
> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every vector
> is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to point
> *back* the other way!
>
> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP a
> level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual
> authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide rang=
e
> of (and all common) modern threats.
>
> Chris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
> <draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>__________________________________=
_____________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vot mailing list
> vot@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>

--001a114d5e3276c0760532babbe7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Josh: the discussion about compatible policy frameworks do=
es already take place, typically under the names: trust framework, federati=
on agreements, inter-federation. You see elements of this in national schem=
es in NZ, US, UK, EU, CA and others - perhaps less so right now on the &#39=
;open internet&#39; , but there&#39;s work happening in a number of pockets=
 on this=C2=A0(R&amp;E is quite advanced).<div><br></div><div>The semantic =
compatibility is coming soon-ish. There&#39;s a convergence underway on sta=
ndardization of descriptions for roles, responsibilities, business function=
s and business processes for identification, authentication, authorization =
and access control systems (&quot;Identity Systems&quot;). I&#39;m contribu=
ting to <a href=3D"http://diacc.ca">diacc.ca</a> and <a href=3D"http://kant=
arainitiative.org">kantarainitiative.org</a> along these lines, and startin=
g to learn what ISO/IEC JTC 1 SC 27 WG 5 (Identity and Privacy) is developi=
ng.</div><div><br></div><div>andrew.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">







<p><b>Andrew Hughes=C2=A0</b><font size=3D"1"><span>CISM CISSP</span><span>=
=C2=A0<br></span></font>Independent Consultant<br><b>In Turn Information Ma=
nagement Consulting</b></p><p><span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);font-famil=
y:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.19999980=
92651px;line-height:19.7999992370605px">o =C2=A0+1 650.209.7542<br></span>m=
 +1 250.888.9474<br><font size=3D"1">
1249 Palmer Road,<br>Victoria, BC V8P 2H8</font><br><span><a href=3D"mailto=
:AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"1">AndrewHughe=
s3000@gmail.com</font></a></span><span><font size=3D"1">=C2=A0</font><br></=
span><font size=3D"1"><a href=3D"http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-hughes/a=
/58/682/" target=3D"_blank">ca.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-hughes/a/58/682/</a>=
<br></font><b><font size=3D"1">Identity Management | IT Governance | Inform=
ation Security=C2=A0</font></b></p></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Josh Howlet=
t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Julian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes, but note that (2) is actually an=
 instance of (1), but where the number of parties happens to be greater tha=
n two. The choice of
 whether to use an internal or external registry is just an operational que=
stion. However, I don=E2=80=99t think this makes VoT superfluous: it still =
has value as a way of signalling alternate semantics defined within the tru=
stmark agreement.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This does, however, suggest to me tha=
t VoT has limited utility when working across arbitrary trustmark agreement=
s. And so to be candid,
 and without wishing to sound dispiriting, I suspect that working on the te=
chnical signalling without understanding how these agreements can be bound =
together is possibly premature; at least if you want something of general u=
tility. More attention is needed
 on composable policy frameworks having compatible semantics, linked to an =
underlying legal architecture that works transitively across those agreemen=
ts. Being the IETF, I understand that this probably isn=E2=80=99t the venue=
 for that discussion
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d"=
>J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4374518049080352068__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Josh.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Julian White [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
white@nu-d.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 May 2016 13:43<br>
<b>To:</b> Josh Howlett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">c=
nd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v=
ot@ietf.org</a>; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Josh,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That is a good question, and equally applicable to h=
ow would an RP verify the claim of an IdP?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think there are only a few usable options;=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) There is a direct relationship between the partie=
s that assures the trustworthiness between themselves=C2=A0outside of the a=
ssertion=C2=A0and will only accept requests/responses from each other (via =
some means not defined here) - this kind of
 makes the VoT value superfluous since the answer is already known.=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) The trust schemes operate some sort of registry t=
hat the VoT links too - but then there also needs to be something that make=
s it impossible for me to impersonate a member of that scheme in the VoT, t=
his is slightly more challenging.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does that make sense?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Julian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 13 May 2016 at 12:26, Josh Howlett &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How does the IdP verify the RP=E2=80=
=99s authority to claim compliance?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4374518049080352068_m_51486064333727438=
1__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
vot
 [mailto:</span><a href=3D"mailto:vot-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">vot-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Julian White<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 May 2016 12:12<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif">cnd@geek.net.au</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,san=
s-serif">vot@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">; Justin Richer
 &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif">jricher@mit.edu</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes I see your point, so the RP should assert with w=
hich trustmarks it complies too?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 13 May 2016 at 10:48, Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
It is like I said at the start.=C2=A0 The entirety of the trustmark idea ev=
aluates to one single strength - everything is equally untrustworthy, becau=
se it&#39;s all only unidirectional.<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t solve trust without fixing BOTH ends.=C2=A0 It is a <b>two-wa=
y </b>street.=C2=A0 For as long as a user and proxy are indistinguishable, =
C0 =3D=3D Ca =3D=3D Cb =3D=3D Cd =3D=3D Ce =3D=3D Cf.<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a little problem, but so was the debris on that last =
Concorde&#39;s runway.=C2=A0 This is the show stopper.<span style=3D"color:=
#888888"><br>
<br>
Chris.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
Friday, May 13, 2016, 5:52:55 PM, you wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"3" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"2" style=3D"width:1.0pt;background:blue;padding:.75pt .75pt .7=
5pt .75pt">
</td>
<td style=3D"padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Justin,<br>
<br>
For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific trustmark, or =
list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to imply that they w=
ill get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to make a decision based =
on that each time. In reality, since
 the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect R=
P&#39;s will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems in=
efficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP won&#39=
;t accept.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White &lt;</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:jw=
hite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif">jwhite@nu-d.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;
 wrote:<br>
That makes sense, tho that didn&#39;t come across in the description of the=
 trustmark.<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Julian<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">On 12 May 2016 19:45, &quot;Justin Riche=
r&quot; &lt;</span></span><span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">jric=
her@mit.edu</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif">&gt;
 wrote:<br>
We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99=
d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication transactio=
n to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is relat=
ed to the trust framework and assessment
 of the IdP and it can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery =
documents and associated trust marks. This is information that is going to =
remain the same regardless of the transaction.
<br>
<br>
This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to interpret =
the VoT in.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Justin<br>
<br>
On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White &lt;</span><span><a href=3D"mail=
to:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif">jwhite@nu-d.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of which are=
 related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding comi=
ng in half way through the drafting tho.<br>
<br>
I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the &quot;security&quot; of the IdP authentication which includes the measu=
res to try and detect &#39;odd&#39; things (like MITM). I would also go one=
 step further in that I also want to know about the
 maturity of the IdP&#39;s &quot;security&quot;, its of no use to me if the=
y have really good credentials but store all the data in the clear on their=
 website or have a load of administrative back-doors that could let anyone =
generate a valid authentication response.<br>
<br>
It feels like we need to do more work in this area.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Julian.<br>
<br>
On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris &lt;</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.n=
et.au" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,san=
s-serif">cnd@geek.net.au</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;
 wrote:<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><span><a href=3D"=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</span></a></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 (Primary Credential Usage)<br>
<br>
Mutual-authentication is missing.=C2=A0 When no provision is made to preven=
t man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, malware, or ot=
her common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, C=
f, and others
<b>equally</b> untrustworthy.<br>
<br>
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the authent=
ication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques used or the=
 strength of protection employed to thwart at least common attack scenarios=
.<br>
<br>
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br>
<br>
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works ou=
t their resistance strength to common attacks? =C2=A0what about different m=
odes?)<br>
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether or=
 not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br>
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were mitigat=
ed (who should be trusted to decide if these really were mitigated?)<br>
<br>
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with biomet=
rics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to a broken=
 SSL warning, or has malware.=C2=A0 They&#39;re also equally useless in mos=
t corporate environments that use deep-packet
 inspection firewalls - and &quot;unexpected certificates&quot; (eg. from D=
PI or malicious) carry their own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as=
 &quot;protected&quot; as you think).=C2=A0 Much more common authentication=
 &quot;protection&quot; of course, are two-step or sms one time codes
 - which are equally useless when an end user can be tricked into revealing=
 them to spoof sites.<br>
<br>
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.=C2=A0 Right now, every vec=
tor is pointing one way - we need at least one &quot;Vector of Trust&quot; =
to point
<b>back</b> the other way! =C2=A0<br>
<br>
How about a 5th vector - &quot;S&quot; for &quot;Security&quot;, which some=
how allows an RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the us=
er&#39;s actual authentication process, in terms of (or at least considerin=
g) a wide range of (and all common) modern threats.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888">Chris.<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">________________________________________=
_______<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span></span><span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">vot@ietf.org</span></=
a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/vot</span></a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;draft=
-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;_______________________________________=
________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">vot@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/vot</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
vot mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">vot@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cor=
bel&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Jisc is a registered charity (number 1149740) and a company limited by guar=
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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From: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@jisc.ac.uk>
To: Andrew Hughes <andrewhughes3000@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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From nobody Fri May 13 15:39:27 2016
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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To: Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com>
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Cc: Chris <cnd@geek.net.au>, vot@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [VoT] Security Problem with Primary Credential Usage
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That seems like a reasonable mechanism, though this is the first it=E2=80=99=
s been brought up. It was only in the last revision or so that we really =
tied the vector tightly to the trustmark concept, which itself needs to =
be more fully defined outside of the VoT concept.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On May 13, 2016, at 2:52 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com> wrote:
>=20
> Justin,
>=20
> For my own clarity, can the RP pass a request for a specific =
trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will accept? The text seems to =
imply that they will get whatever trustmark the IdP sends and have to =
make a decision based on that each time. In reality, since the =
evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual process I suspect =
RP's will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept so then it seems =
inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a trustmark the RP =
won't accept.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Julian.
>=20
> On 12 May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com =
<mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com>> wrote:
> That makes sense, tho that didn't come across in the description of =
the trustmark.
>=20
> Julian
>=20
> On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> We explicitly left those kinds of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=
=99d really be related to the IdP itself and not the authentication =
transaction to which the VoT refers. In other words, the security of the =
IdP is related to the trust framework and assessment of the IdP and it =
can be published as part of the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and =
associated trust marks. This is information that is going to remain the =
same regardless of the transaction.=20
>=20
> This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context to =
interpret the VoT in.
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White <jwhite@nu-d.com =
<mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> I have a number of comments and questions (see attached), many of =
which are related to the issues raised by Chris, some maybe my =
misunderstanding coming in half way through the drafting tho.
>>=20
>> I, like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit =
around the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the =
measures to try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one =
step further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's =
"security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but =
store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of =
administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid =
authentication response.
>>=20
>> It feels like we need to do more work in this area.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Julian.
>>=20
>> On 8 May 2016 at 13:24, Chris <cnd@geek.net.au =
<mailto:cnd@geek.net.au>> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>=20
>> I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02> (Primary =
Credential Usage)
>>=20
>> Mutual-authentication is missing.  When no provision is made to =
prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, =
malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, =
Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others equally untrustworthy.
>>=20
>> We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the =
authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques =
used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common =
attack scenarios.
>>=20
>> This problem gets tricky quite fast:
>>=20
>> Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who =
works out their resistance strength to common attacks?  what about =
different modes?)
>> Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to =
whether or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)
>> Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were =
mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were =
mitigated?)
>>=20
>> For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with =
biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a broken SSL warning, or has malware.  They're also equally useless in =
most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls - =
and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their =
own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you =
think).  Much more common authentication "protection" of course, are =
two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an end =
user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.
>>=20
>> 91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.  Right now, every =
vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to =
point back the other way! =20
>>=20
>> How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an =
RP a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual =
authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide =
range of (and all common) modern threats.
>>=20
>> Chris.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
<draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx>___________________________________=
____________
>> vot mailing list
>> vot@ietf.org <mailto:vot@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot>
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">That seems like a reasonable mechanism, though this is the =
first it=E2=80=99s been brought up. It was only in the last revision or =
so that we really tied the vector tightly to the trustmark concept, =
which itself needs to be more fully defined outside of the VoT =
concept.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94=
 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 13, 2016, at 2:52 AM, Julian White =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" class=3D"">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Justin,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For my own clarity, can the RP pass a =
request for a specific trustmark, or list of trustmarks that it will =
accept? The text seems to imply that they will get whatever trustmark =
the IdP sends and have to make a decision based on that each time. In =
reality, since the evaluation of the trustmark is a cumbersome manual =
process I suspect RP's will whitelist trustmarks that they will accept =
so then it seems inefficient for and IdP to return a response under a =
trustmark the RP won't accept.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Julian.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 =
May 2016 at 19:49, Julian White <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">That makes sense, tho =
that didn't come across in the description of the trustmark.</p><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Julian</p></font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 May 2016 19:45, "Justin Richer" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">We explicitly left those kinds =
of things out of the vector as they=E2=80=99d really be related to the =
IdP itself and not the authentication transaction to which the VoT =
refers. In other words, the security of the IdP is related to the trust =
framework and assessment of the IdP and it can be published as part of =
the IdP=E2=80=99s discovery documents and associated trust marks. This =
is information that is going to remain the same regardless of the =
transaction.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is also part of why you need to have a trustmark context =
to interpret the VoT in.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Julian White =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jwhite@nu-d.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jwhite@nu-d.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have a number of comments and =
questions (see attached), many of which are related to the issues raised =
by Chris, some maybe my misunderstanding coming in half way through the =
drafting tho.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I,=
 like Chris, also think there needs to be something more explicit around =
the "security" of the IdP authentication which includes the measures to =
try and detect 'odd' things (like MITM). I would also go one step =
further in that I also want to know about the maturity of the IdP's =
"security", its of no use to me if they have really good credentials but =
store all the data in the clear on their website or have a load of =
administrative back-doors that could let anyone generate a valid =
authentication response.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It feels like we need to do more work in this area.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Julian.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 May =
2016 at 13:24, Chris <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cnd@geek.net.au" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cnd@geek.net.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Hi =
All,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think there is a critical flaw in section 3.2 of </span><a =
style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02</a=
><span style=3D"font-family:'Calibri';font-size:12pt" class=3D""> =
(Primary Credential Usage)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Mutual-authentication is missing.&nbsp; When no provision is made to =
prevent man-in-the-middle, credential harvesting, spoof, phishing, =
malware, or other common threats, this renders all possible vectors C0, =
Ca, Cb, Cd, Ce, Cf, and others <b class=3D"">equally</b> =
untrustworthy.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We should consider inclusion either for the overall strength of the =
authentication process, or some breakdown of either all the techniques =
used or the strength of protection employed to thwart at least common =
attack scenarios.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This problem gets tricky quite fast:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Do we identify the authentication technology vendor? (if yes - who works =
out their resistance strength to common attacks? &nbsp;what about =
different modes?)<br class=3D"">
Do we broadly identify the techniques (whos opinions count as to whether =
or not the technique is effective and against what threats?)<br =
class=3D"">
Do we identify or classify the threats and indicate which ones were =
mitigated (who should be trusted to decide if these really were =
mitigated?)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
For example - tamper-proof hardware digital certificate devices with =
biometrics unlocks are totally useless, if the user paid no attention to =
a broken SSL warning, or has malware.&nbsp; They're also equally useless =
in most corporate environments that use deep-packet inspection firewalls =
- and "unexpected certificates" (eg. from DPI or malicious) carry their =
own privacy problems (eg: passwords are not as "protected" as you =
think).&nbsp; Much more common authentication "protection" of course, =
are two-step or sms one time codes - which are equally useless when an =
end user can be tricked into revealing them to spoof sites.<br class=3D"">=

<br class=3D"">
91% of successful break-ins start from phishing.&nbsp; Right now, every =
vector is pointing one way - we need at least one "Vector of Trust" to =
point <b class=3D"">back</b> the other way! &nbsp;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
How about a 5th vector - "S" for "Security", which somehow allows an RP =
a level of confidence in the protection afforded to the user's actual =
authentication process, in terms of (or at least considering) a wide =
range of (and all common) modern threats.<span class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Chris.</font></span></span></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
vot mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
<span =
class=3D"">&lt;draft-richer-vectors-of-trust-02.docx&gt;</span>___________=
____________________________________<br class=3D"">vot mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:vot@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">vot@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vot</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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