From nobody Wed Nov 13 09:41:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A2012011C for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcdAFA8Hq0wL for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78E72120835 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id q2so3538612ljg.7 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XbDT/ryenfEYhsXAT6NrWUvTBT2BBbYTjpxO6rf1OtU=; b=j/dfGP6E29lh1B6Kdey9P8dH3bwlhNDXcamjlMscpf2VZSgNnYeDFSJ6eO1bce20do udDRXMUIZdcEwEDLrRTvKtK28xI2SFyrydg84NFTHtO1hoPV21ZKtZpTJsJigZrMVkzE yOC8NmBcnT0ctbqvN2tpW9bNGHcCPVuN3oqstPmhxlS3aE4vJrMxamLMeKJhWpmFg3Zd gxnHaKoD3L0t50wxTkpwNWXn5D23qTs89aAdJNlH15GQ+8BzFO7w0rU33v/8M+ESrmOo OJC7blVoqCH7K6xLB2qwuPrAjTtSmnJoI3skHCRtQ/45HvDJsTEqbFWd5PfVY45mvYbj GsRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XbDT/ryenfEYhsXAT6NrWUvTBT2BBbYTjpxO6rf1OtU=; b=a5LnPavRhLHc/5S7nQSItf8+3lRpEw6ds5lq9mPuOoxqd/Nj9nHx6R6q6j0KRKjjB6 SPgQwu4RbHbLVqnNmlAHVDr/dAEuCTA55LYhU1EtpmuCce8vrfkU4bEAUS44AnY89R68 XQpkbQLcHJMpmocDJWJ3YyIIsjgdqcsaCQwgU9p5qP66khAE7Ch6Lai9YR2ttkuTOvxW brWPDNveGRoysbEakEx7DaIAsvPBFnRia42uM5uCtOtNix/1Dv3o5zU1LKR+IjmDZD0L odRNcYgVJzHav0cQJVeauuZyBdr1U+LRbZAikxbS/ZTswFffIAA2bu2nXgNbLfs5DUWN hjYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXcYS7dOUrajV4oaqVVJwkzo1ZkY5kBqZeMc8eNqkQzPAZ1rkOc hwYMweW/qL4/65MUdIXlPfqHib8dQ1UOE3cOLWV4Xu7s X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyVBTpqUHQiRGe963G+t4wOx89/sj4zYLM5uTu83kvfF2ybHeaVtoVl/UeNJKcR+OkYS+H0FbKOwtv6Bv3Lprc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:20f:: with SMTP id y15mr3404559ljn.31.1573666877631; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:41:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c8c1605973ddf26" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] Updated WEBTRANS BOF Agenda X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:41:24 -0000 --0000000000003c8c1605973ddf26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We've made a few tweaks to the WEBTRANS BOF Agenda. An updated agenda is available here: https://github.com/DavidSchinazi/webtrans-wg-materials/blob/master/ietf106/agenda.md Comments welcome. Also, we are developing a draft slide deck, which will hopefully be filled in soon (hint to the presenters): https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1APFmYij7nyqlmu91R7G61F66pxvWQD5H6UY1W-taRjU As noted earlier, a draft Charter is being developed in Github and is available for inspection (as well as Issues and PRs) here: https://github.com/DavidSchinazi/webtrans-wg-materials/blob/master/charter.md --0000000000003c8c1605973ddf26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We'= ve made a few tweaks to the WEBTRANS BOF Agenda. An updated agenda is avail= able here:=C2=A0

Comments welcome.=C2=A0

Also, we are develo= ping a draft slide deck, which will hopefully be filled in soon (hint to th= e presenters):=C2=A0
=
As noted earlier, a draft Charter is being developed in Gith= ub and is available for inspection (as well as Issues and PRs) here:=C2=A0<= /div>


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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:16:41 +0000 From: Bernard Aboba To: "webtransport@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Webtransport] Request for Feedback: Draft Charter proposal Thread-Index: AQHVmw8hKuMf32tqakW0qVqgTf3hrA== Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:16:41 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-11-14T17:16:41.229Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Bernard.Aboba@microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:3:1b7:20e7:dc37:8914] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3148ce95-d24d-4bf4-d345-08d769266a94 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR00MB0688: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the current draft charter: https://github.com/DavidSchinazi/webtrans-wg-materials/blob/master/charter.= md Comments (or Issues/PRs) welcome. WebTransport (WEBTRANS) Charter ________________________________ Chairs * TBD Applications and Real-Time Ar= ea Directors * Barry Leiba barryleiba@computer.org * Alexey Melnikov aamelnikov@fastmail.fm * Adam Roach adam@nostrum.com Applications and Real-Time Area= Advisor * Barry Leiba barryleiba@computer.org Mailing Lists * General Discussion * To Subscribe * Archive Description of Working Group The WebTransport working group will define new client-server protocols or p= rotocol extensions in order to support the development of the W3C WebTransp= ort API https://wicg.github.io/web-transport. These protocols will support: * Reliable bidirectional and unidirectional communication that provides= greater efficiency than Websockets (e.g. removal of head-of-line blocking)= . * Unreliable datagram communication, functionality not available in Web= sockets. * Origin checks to allow supporting the Web's origin-based security mod= el. The WebTransport working group will define three variants: * A protocol directly running over QUIC with its own ALPN. * A protocol that runs multiplexed with HTTP/3. * Fallback protocols that can be used when QUIC or UDP are not availabl= e. The group will pay attention to security issues arising from the above scen= arios so as to ensure against creation of new modes of attack, as well as t= o ensure that security issues addressed in the design of Websockets remain = addressed in the new work. To assist in the coordination with W3C, the group will initially develop an= overview document containing use cases and requirements in order to clarif= y the goals of the effort. Feedback will also be solicited at various point= s along the way in order to ensure the best possible match between the prot= ocol extensions and the needs of the W3C WebTransport API. The clarity and = interoperability of specifications will be confirmed via test events and ha= ckathons. The group will also coordinate with other working groups within the IETF (e= .g. QUIC, HTTPBIS) as appropriate. Goals and Milestones * March 2020 - Adopt a WebTransport Overview draft as a WG work item * March 2020 - Adopt a draft on WebTransport over QUIC as a WG work ite= m * March 2020 - Adopt a draft on WebTransport over HTTP/3 as a WG work i= tem * March 2020 - Adopt a draft on HTTP/2 fallback mechanism as a WG work = item * March 2020 - Adopt a draft on a QUIC fallback mechanism as a WG work = item * August 2020 - Issue WG last call of the WebTransport Overview documen= t. * November 2020 - Issue WG last call on WebTransport over QUIC * November 2020 - Issue WG last call on QUIC fallback mechanism * February 2021 - Issue WG last call on WebTransport over HTTP/3 * February 2021 - Issue WG last call on HTTP/2 fallback mechanism --_000_MN2PR00MB0622076D2D0D6BD58A95D0BAEC710MN2PR00MB0622namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the current draft charter:

Comments (or Issues/PRs) welcome.

WebTransport (WEBTRANS) Charter

<= /a>Chairs

  • TBD

Applications and Real-Time Area Directors

Applications and Real-Time Area Advisor

Mailing Lists

Description of Working Group

The WebTransport working group will define new client-server protocols or p= rotocol extensions in order to support the development of the W3C WebTransp= ort API = https://wicg.github.io/web-transport.

These protocols will support:

  • Reliable bidirectional and unidirectio= nal communication that provides greater efficiency than Websockets (e.g. re= moval of head-of-line blocking).
  • Unreliable datagram communication, functionality not ava= ilable in Websockets.
  • Origin checks to allow supporting the Web's origin-based security m= odel.

The WebTransport working group will define three variants:

  • A protocol directly running over QUIC = with its own ALPN.
  • A protocol that runs multiplexed with HTTP/3.
  • Fallback protocols that can be used wh= en QUIC or UDP are not available.

The group will pay attention to security issues arising from the above scen= arios so as to ensure against creation of new modes of attack, as well as t= o ensure that security issues addressed in the design of Websockets remain = addressed in the new work.

To assist in the coordination with W3C, the group will initially develop an= overview document containing use cases and requirements in order to clarif= y the goals of the effort. Feedback will also be solicited at various point= s along the way in order to ensure the best possible match between the protocol extensions and the needs of t= he W3C WebTransport API. The clarity and interoperability of specifications= will be confirmed via test events and hackathons.

The group will also coordinate with other working groups within the IETF (e= .g. QUIC, HTTPBIS) as appropriate.

Goals and Milestones

  • March 2020 - Adopt a WebTransport Over= view draft as a WG work item
  • March 2020 - Adopt a draft on WebTransport over QUIC as a WG= work item
  • Mar= ch 2020 - Adopt a draft on WebTransport over HTTP/3 as a WG work item
    • <= li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em">March 2020 - Adopt = a draft on HTTP/2 fallback mechanism as a WG work item
  • March 2020 - Adopt a draft on a QU= IC fallback mechanism as a WG work item
  • August 2020 - Issue WG last call of the WebTransp= ort Overview document.
  • November 2020 - Issue WG last call on WebTransport over QUIC
    • <= li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em">November 2020 - Iss= ue WG last call on QUIC fallback mechanism
  • February 2021 - Issue WG last call on WebTrans= port over HTTP/3
  • February 2021 - Issue WG last call on HTTP/2 fallback mechanism



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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the latest BOF Agenda: https://github.com/DavidSchinazi/webtrans-wg-materials/blob/master/ietf106/= agenda.md Here is the slide deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1APFmYij7nyqlmu91R7G61F66pxvWQD5H6UY= 1W-taRjU/ Comments (or Issues/PRs) welcome. WEBTRANS BOF Agenda * Applications and Real-Time Area (ART) * Wednesday, November 20, 2019 * 13:30 - 15:00 (Singapore time) * Room: Collyer * Meetecho: https://www.meetecho.com/ietf106/webtrans/ * Mailing list: webtransport@ietf.org * Jabber Room: webtrans@jabber.ietf.org 13:30 - 13:40 -- = Preliminaries (Chairs, 10 minutes) * Note Well * Blue Sheets * Note Takers * Jabber scribe * Agenda Bash * BOF Context 13:40 - 13:5= 0 -- Overview and Requirements (10 minutes) draft-vvv-webtransport-overview 13:50 - 14:40 -- Relev= ant Drafts (50 minutes) An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC (Eric Kinnear & Tomm= y Pauly, 10 minutes) draft-pauly-quic-datagram Using Q= UIC Datagrams with HTTP/3 (David Schinazi, 5 minutes) draft-schinazi-quic-h3-datagram WebTransport ov= er QUIC (Victor Vasiliev, 5 minutes) draft-vvv-webtransport-quic HTTP/2 as a Transport for Arbitrary Bytestreams (Eric K= innear & Tommy Pauly, 10 minutes) draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport An HTTP/2 Extension for Bidirectional Message Communication= (Guowu Xie, 10 minutes) draft-xie-bidrectional-messaging WebTransport = over HTTP/3 (Victor Vasiliev, 10 minutes) draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 14:40 - 14:50 = - Potential Charter (Chairs, 10 minutes) 14:50 - = 15:00 - Wrapup and Summary (Chairs & ADs, 10 minutes) --_000_MN2PR00MB0622ECDFCB32DC78845F9212EC710MN2PR00MB0622namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the latest BOF Agenda:

Here is the slide deck:

Comments (or Issues/PRs) welcome. 

WEBTRANS BOF Agenda

13:30 - 13:40 -- Preliminaries (Chairs, 10 minutes)

  • Note Well
  • Blue Sheets
  • Note Takers
  • Jabber scribe
  • Agenda Bash
  • BOF Context

13:40 - 13:50 -- Overview and Requirements (10 minutes)

dra= ft-vvv-webtransport-overview

13:50 - 14:40 -- Relevant Drafts (50 minutes)

draft-pau= ly-quic-datagram

Using QUIC Datagrams with HTTP/3 (David Schinazi, 5 minutes)

dra= ft-schinazi-quic-h3-datagram

WebTransport over QUIC (Victor Vasiliev, 5 minutes)

draft-v= vv-webtransport-quic

HTTP/2 as a Transport for Arbitrary Bytestreams (Eric Kinnear & Tommy Pauly, = 10 minutes)

draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport

An HTTP/2 Extension for Bidirectional Message Communication (Guowu Xie, 10 mi= nutes)

d= raft-xie-bidrectional-messaging

WebTransport over HTTP/3 (Victor Vasiliev, 10 minutes)

draft-= vvv-webtransport-http3

14:40 - 14:50 - Potential Charter (Chairs, 10 minutes)

14:50 - 15:00 - Wrapup and Summary (Chairs & ADs, 10 minutes)


--_000_MN2PR00MB0622ECDFCB32DC78845F9212EC710MN2PR00MB0622namp_-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 18:41:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD56120236 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:41:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAlYsDjvus7A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51FBF1200FB for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id o65so15608840lff.13 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:41:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7S27cqgq4StAt8iSzo1cLxhVCUr6b/WPHiXzoeeO8Tk=; b=qHxpeWMNmmbT52G32J/GifgkPksYKM55zo6v3Famu/G9br9EZET+hCku6ub33rUZ9a d40XC+eq8Lc8zDm+DsmtrGVVM9rXAdi2Hsz8ozJZLTMfRMT9ULFdzAVtfMMCdh6cLt8e 0XfChQyuQOfbdUwg6cwl5aNZ7ofrRplJ+vkppyZjYx5AIB/IhX8khV37YFRHuOM8Xdvm UM/YlMehsXFXqs5uURZE+u55QVF9i5JwTDO2mowiwcjHwtXUbhYD1llytcOvKW091WqG 5rhmxP1iq9c1+33NwvqTdEgolbcumpVr4swsoUZdvhXzS7vhvqBa5ns9AmD27JbwQ8q/ WIpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7S27cqgq4StAt8iSzo1cLxhVCUr6b/WPHiXzoeeO8Tk=; b=pkYql3+11A4p7I5va6oq/dahFPNGCG9tHcT+rT6E7fdtQNv54SUhSlSwPyJPU4m0+N 9wqSN3YlIcluP3jB6FvPG9dj+8kQFbawUBBmOV1+GMf1J7VWxBa9gvyzssl4FUfZF5Ey w2wQth6kAUTK6grvRDE9Ka0fXrV4NpTqzbnsVWdRmcWRXbSJpLgS8k3gWb05J0PmCWXx gFlWBBcdSdtUJjmhFtHpFT5Om2M80H621a16zlBYajlczP2UuXjcIPmShqkFoDgoXNLy c97a8xLuVxVPrAgMaMLIPHNbmgxIulb/1elvT3dmzMl7Pwjp5t0FpEMbFqbJ7kzFUfU/ uNHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRkGdXNB/CSqLfZwPRBmO3uPUg4bgTFjEMYaZirx79CaRroPxL Uu9sRf0sqKSIbPLq3QXQ8beRe9IR1vokP+lLQf2h8+gD X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxhMTqM1nFuLz2nWZOtkOjo5W3HfjE6Vi99Q4KytB6ddVi9BPFtKdN0jKwEpFA40c40F7e1y4cZJ9KtBLq/jH0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5210:: with SMTP id a16mr1747367lfl.156.1574131300607; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:41:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:41:29 +0800 Message-ID: To: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000aafe0597aa019a" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] A comment on draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport-02 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:41:49 -0000 --00000000000000aafe0597aa019a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is a straightforward draft, so my questions don't relate to the content such much as the context: The draft extends the CONNECT handshake to allow "bytestream" to be provided for the :protocol pseudo-header field, instead of "websocket". Is there corresponding JS API work contemplated (or ongoing) to support this? The "WebSocketStream API design" indicates "a 1:1 correspondence between chunks and WebSocket messages" so that it doesn't appear to take "bytestream" into account. --00000000000000aafe0597aa019a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a straightforward draft, so my questions don't= relate to the content such much as the context:=C2=A0

T= he draft extends the CONNECT handshake to allow "bytestream" to b= e provided for the :protocol pseudo-header field, instead of "websocke= t".=C2=A0

Is there corresponding JS API work = contemplated (or ongoing) to support this?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=
The "WebSocketStream API design"=C2=A0= indicates "a 1:1 correspondence=C2=A0between chunks and WebSocket mes= sages" so that it doesn't appear to take "bytestream" in= to account.=C2=A0
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Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:56:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <714de35c-15b0-9f01-ab36-ef62dfffe259@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <714de35c-15b0-9f01-ab36-ef62dfffe259@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Victor Vasiliev Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:56:41 +0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Cc: Bernard Aboba , "webtransport@ietf.org" , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028ba5c0597acbb8f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webtransport] A comment on draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport-02 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 05:57:06 -0000 --00000000000028ba5c0597acbb8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > The distinction between binary and text datagrams, and the limitation of > text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of > datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability. > > I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope > that it can be added. > Hello Martin, WebTransport does not make any assumptions about the nature of the payload it transmits, that is to say, all of the payload is assumed to be binary. That is consistent with the general way the similar recent API has handled this (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the design of underlying protocols. TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can be used to easily transform one into the other. I'm especially confused about this being related to the datagrams; almost all datagram protocols I've seen are binary-based, since ~1200 bytes is typically too small for text-based protocols. -- Victor. --00000000000028ba5c0597acbb8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM Martin J= . D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama= .ac.jp> wrote:
The distinction between binary and text da= tagrams, and the limitation of
text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of
datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability.

I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope <= br> that it can be added.

Hello Martin,

WebTransport does not make any assumptions about the = nature of the payload it transmits, that is to say, all of the payload is a= ssumed to be binary.=C2=A0 That is consistent with the general way the simi= lar recent API has handled this (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the desi= gn of underlying protocols.=C2=A0 TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can b= e used to easily transform one into the other.

I&#= 39;m especially confused about this being related to the datagrams; almost = all datagram protocols I've seen are binary-based, since ~1200 bytes is= typically too small for text-based protocols.

=C2= =A0 -- Victor.
--00000000000028ba5c0597acbb8f-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 02:31:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A041200C7 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:31:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqueqw8m0uVf for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp02.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp02.apple.com [17.171.2.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E1D61208F6 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp02.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp02.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xAJAROfR058837; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:31:15 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=/C/ptVBbzu4WJLVXw8Z0ZDyyeZfWJua/ec5nD2Z/hDs=; b=FLzq7FlYcU1/1tRb4rlz5fvyHch+Ypgi1m/XBQqGd8/LNw7Zq5nOHKAgS+dzqhzQ70Nn cuaU27HO7zxiRZRodPGT4jXyPOJjsRcBTZ8vsJrUXfckpa5sdKRJt0aJz5E4lc1gw/kr +VlEjYVd13nY6z5c6/4VJjpZHKeRNgKdA4cXl7j7mqcRPhs5A0GTt/otmAj8WUlZbIBR UFRnI69b2C5bP7mHUnUO/9wNf6rDd7VX6HkPEMIQ4yLLwAq+hySNa8tp9b747cQp9UGI YS1bUlt/WwjKayOXn1p4nP82XhAuwbdv3PohmNKKlIGC6TONTwWnQSOm7/mvLFX/tqn2 Pg== Received: from sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com (sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com [17.84.80.84]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp02.apple.com with ESMTP id 2waenwr6xg-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:31:15 -0800 Received: from sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com [17.84.80.62]) by sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q1700NGHP812V00@sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:13 +0800 (+08) Received: from process_milters-daemon.sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com by sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q1700700N5KCD00@sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:13 +0800 (+08) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 998a9864e8b92da9dad0a458e77c5f05 X-Va-E-CD: ec73a80d9bb32e8686f4a7d26871f899 X-Va-R-CD: b879d5d6a960c316f46e8ba8837b4386 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 549e459b-39d0-4488-a123-4435bc086a00 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 998a9864e8b92da9dad0a458e77c5f05 X-V-E-CD: ec73a80d9bb32e8686f4a7d26871f899 X-V-R-CD: b879d5d6a960c316f46e8ba8837b4386 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 87bcac4b-6c00-485d-8ac8-d822877a7ceb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2019-11-19_03:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.235.145.241] (unknown [17.235.145.241]) by sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q1700C42P7XR860@sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:10 +0800 (+08) Sender: ekinnear@apple.com From: Eric Kinnear Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0FA3D4A9-4E92-45F3-849B-1457EF7E6AED" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:09 +0800 In-reply-to: Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "webtransport@ietf.org" , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" , Bernard Aboba To: Victor Vasiliev References: <714de35c-15b0-9f01-ab36-ef62dfffe259@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-19_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webtransport] A comment on draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport-02 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:31:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0FA3D4A9-4E92-45F3-849B-1457EF7E6AED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Agreed, I think these are somewhat separate concepts. I think = draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport is working towards extending = HTTP/2 for bidirectional transport *beyond* WebSockets, if you=E2=80=99re = intending to send WebSocket data on a stream, you=E2=80=99d use = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D, and you = really probably should register another :protocol value to use for your = protocol. The latest rev of the draft here indicates that if you=E2=80=99r= e going to use =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D you must have negotiated = what=E2=80=99s on the bytestream in a different manner.=20 Lots more to unpack here, and always happy to chat, but that=E2=80=99s = the short version of =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D =3D/=3D = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D. Thanks, Eric > On Nov 19, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Victor Vasiliev = wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM Martin J.. D=C3=BCrst = > wrote: > The distinction between binary and text datagrams, and the limitation = of=20 > text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of=20 > datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability. >=20 > I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope=20= > that it can be added. >=20 > Hello Martin, >=20 > WebTransport does not make any assumptions about the nature of the = payload it transmits, that is to say, all of the payload is assumed to = be binary. That is consistent with the general way the similar recent = API has handled this (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the design of = underlying protocols. TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can be used = to easily transform one into the other. >=20 > I'm especially confused about this being related to the datagrams; = almost all datagram protocols I've seen are binary-based, since ~1200 = bytes is typically too small for text-based protocols. >=20 > -- Victor. > --=20 > Webtransport mailing list > Webtransport@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport --Apple-Mail=_0FA3D4A9-4E92-45F3-849B-1457EF7E6AED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Agreed, I think these are somewhat separate concepts. I = think draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport is working towards = extending HTTP/2 for bidirectional transport *beyond* WebSockets, if = you=E2=80=99re intending to send WebSocket data on a stream, you=E2=80=99d= use =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D, and = you really probably should register another :protocol value to use for = your protocol. The latest rev of the draft here indicates that if = you=E2=80=99re going to use =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D you must have = negotiated what=E2=80=99s on the bytestream in a different = manner. 

Lots = more to unpack here, and always happy to chat, but that=E2=80=99s the = short version of =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D =3D/=3D = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D.

Thanks,
Eric


On Nov = 19, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM = Martin J.. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama..ac.jp> wrote:
The distinction between binary and = text datagrams, and the limitation of
text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of
datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability.

I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope =
that it can be added.

Hello Martin,

WebTransport does not make any = assumptions about the nature of the payload it transmits, that is to = say, all of the payload is assumed to be binary.  That is = consistent with the general way the similar recent API has handled this = (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the design of underlying = protocols.  TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can be used to = easily transform one into the other.

I'm especially confused about this = being related to the datagrams; almost all datagram protocols I've seen = are binary-based, since ~1200 bytes is typically too small for = text-based protocols.

  -- Victor.
--
Webtransport mailing list
Webtransport@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport

= --Apple-Mail=_0FA3D4A9-4E92-45F3-849B-1457EF7E6AED-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 02:36:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418181208A7 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:36:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrWvFq5HceXg for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F32091208D1 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xAJAWFBP013946; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:35:57 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=Wz4eIQgYZeFmperqBLFcapzgJZuvnKu7IVfm4rvvlJo=; b=Hd8+TIXbjej7ybBgTW11HKGyL1nmwYPMzg9ENd/KEDdc7IVrUt9SDMhYYmr98gaChUA8 XzZQdWNcf5VA0a2BM6KWo3eXhVIouqmhrspMFZXsDqDcZFDfYfb6lU17i2mWQMiGV1Kf JC9YKTuyqMY52Ju4ZbeyqsPshukDzDT8bIFD6tzlNq4+V7PWyq/NsIJncveFyvVs9CPz RAMrYpZZ7GnjGlbx/Oc8+dO/bPnyqTsYzWkFSo6DMmp+vm/Ybwt19YZ6ChzVCU9sCLWf pSk+01QMQMnpgbAqeqdzOYHo6f+EgHYMPXeRtI9xq9ZB7+NRgyPk+oSD0bcaj+pVuqW7 Fw== Received: from sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com (sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com [17.84.80.84]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 2wagn6d1ps-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:35:56 -0800 Received: from sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com [17.84.80.62]) by sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q1700NQBPFU2V00@sng-mtap-sz02.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:35:54 +0800 (+08) Received: from process_milters-daemon.sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com by sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q1700700N5QNK00@sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:35:54 +0800 (+08) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 998a9864e8b92da9dad0a458e77c5f05 X-Va-E-CD: ec73a80d9bb32e8686f4a7d26871f899 X-Va-R-CD: b879d5d6a960c316f46e8ba8837b4386 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 701b0a8e-85db-469d-b3c7-94e8c6de3bac X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 998a9864e8b92da9dad0a458e77c5f05 X-V-E-CD: ec73a80d9bb32e8686f4a7d26871f899 X-V-R-CD: b879d5d6a960c316f46e8ba8837b4386 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 44be340f-5067-4ea8-808f-5f8a25ee7f2b X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2019-11-19_03:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.235.145.241] (unknown [17.235.145.241]) by sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q17003F7PFOR300@sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com>; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:35:51 +0800 (+08) Sender: ekinnear@apple.com From: Eric Kinnear Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7047555-A862-430D-A326-72941587CE85" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:35:48 +0800 In-reply-to: Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "webtransport@ietf.org" , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" , Bernard Aboba To: Victor Vasiliev References: <714de35c-15b0-9f01-ab36-ef62dfffe259@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-19_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webtransport] A comment on draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport-02 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:36:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C7047555-A862-430D-A326-72941587CE85 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 And to the original question about JS API work, I=E2=80=99m not aware of = any, however there is a (not-yet-publicly-available) implementation of a = native interface that does support this as a general abstraction. I = think one of the key goals in WebTransport is going to be making sure = that what we=E2=80=99re defining here has a clear boundary between:=20 (a) Protocol mechanisms that are expressed on the wire (b) Mappings to APIs that provide better abstraction, both Web and = native. I can see several possibilities for (b), but we should likely discuss = that much more. Thanks, Eric > On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Eric Kinnear wrote: >=20 > Agreed, I think these are somewhat separate concepts. I think = draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport is working towards extending = HTTP/2 for bidirectional transport *beyond* WebSockets, if you=E2=80=99re = intending to send WebSocket data on a stream, you=E2=80=99d use = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D, and you = really probably should register another :protocol value to use for your = protocol. The latest rev of the draft here indicates that if you=E2=80=99r= e going to use =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D you must have negotiated = what=E2=80=99s on the bytestream in a different manner.=20 >=20 > Lots more to unpack here, and always happy to chat, but that=E2=80=99s = the short version of =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D =3D/=3D = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D. >=20 > Thanks, > Eric >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 19, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Victor Vasiliev = > wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM Martin J.. D=C3=BCrst = > wrote: >> The distinction between binary and text datagrams, and the limitation = of=20 >> text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of=20 >> datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability. >>=20 >> I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope=20= >> that it can be added. >>=20 >> Hello Martin, >>=20 >> WebTransport does not make any assumptions about the nature of the = payload it transmits, that is to say, all of the payload is assumed to = be binary. That is consistent with the general way the similar recent = API has handled this (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the design of = underlying protocols. TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can be used = to easily transform one into the other. >>=20 >> I'm especially confused about this being related to the datagrams; = almost all datagram protocols I've seen are binary-based, since ~1200 = bytes is typically too small for text-based protocols. >>=20 >> -- Victor. >> --=20 >> Webtransport mailing list >> Webtransport@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport >=20 --Apple-Mail=_C7047555-A862-430D-A326-72941587CE85 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 And = to the original question about JS API work, I=E2=80=99m not aware of = any, however there is a (not-yet-publicly-available) implementation of a = native interface that does support this as a general abstraction. I = think one of the key goals in WebTransport is going to be making sure = that what we=E2=80=99re defining here has a clear boundary = between: 

(a) = Protocol mechanisms that are expressed on the wire
(b) Mappings to APIs that provide better abstraction, both = Web and native.

I can see several possibilities for (b), but we should likely = discuss that much more.

Thanks,
Eric


On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com> = wrote:

Agreed, I think these = are somewhat separate concepts. I = think draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport is working towards = extending HTTP/2 for bidirectional transport *beyond* WebSockets, if = you=E2=80=99re intending to send WebSocket data on a stream, you=E2=80=99d= use =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D, and = you really probably should register another :protocol value to use for = your protocol. The latest rev of the draft here indicates that if = you=E2=80=99re going to use =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D you must have = negotiated what=E2=80=99s on the bytestream in a different = manner. 

Lots = more to unpack here, and always happy to chat, but that=E2=80=99s the = short version of =E2=80=9Cbytestream=E2=80=9D =3D/=3D = =E2=80=9Cwebsocket=E2=80=9D.

Thanks,
Eric


On Nov = 19, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 12:54 PM = Martin J.. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama..ac.jp> wrote:
The distinction between binary and = text datagrams, and the limitation of
text datagrams to UTF-8, considerably simplifies the creation of
datagram-based protocols and increases interoperability.

I wonder why this wasn't included in the Webtransport draft, and hope =
that it can be added.

Hello Martin,

WebTransport does not make any = assumptions about the nature of the payload it transmits, that is to = say, all of the payload is assumed to be binary.  That is = consistent with the general way the similar recent API has handled this = (e.g. streaming fetch), as well as the design of underlying = protocols.  TextEncoderStream/TextDecoderStream can be used to = easily transform one into the other.

I'm especially confused about this = being related to the datagrams; almost all datagram protocols I've seen = are binary-based, since ~1200 bytes is typically too small for = text-based protocols.

  -- Victor.
--
Webtransport mailing list
Webtransport@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport


= --Apple-Mail=_C7047555-A862-430D-A326-72941587CE85-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 03:11:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74B6120917 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qEyxTWxK_6s8 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 237F6120B78 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id r14so10058610lff.3 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:11:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2HVmc8BoW/ahTwUqEvQpFg0S7+5KI+oVLBpltLiI16Y=; b=JjWyihUjJDkobDeX3Mcp3JKz5+xgNdEJA+4g/Z51FDYWO2WGnaltDwajWsCSHUUTvU ejcx62oBoV2ztkAwDiCI+y4GpgEbJXAOAReghpwpI8AjF1hW+iGCqGbwBpyzNLOUXGOO KGfQKMAT22oB6N8/ppL0pymDHP40m2D5usKEuJsrNpGwo+i66FTD4ektKZShc35lVJqf v2lpPiUnvwkz8dNAz21NLbTqNir15OZdXNv8qkXc8mb0CSm2GyEzp7pbDmBW3cws92Vy E9wqmw7MsmdSeUmDGP3Z4SmCLi7ZfBpAAiUZPLfgrwSbfJIsZP0BDxKMwg5B3BdRpGfA Ezjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2HVmc8BoW/ahTwUqEvQpFg0S7+5KI+oVLBpltLiI16Y=; b=TQ2wVrGypvODlXs/EvpSxOuJ2Fx0EHg0oKVCr7cv3isa+1T+0xrQOxXXxYZ6o1cYvq Ym5UCRs+yXSYFO7QCQG9vRzjKbdm/EwNBkp1Tf4/IBArWnG7b3Cfr7ZCF99bJNWVLQlZ eWiv7UdPzc+rWt1bMJ30zcWeUKQbT00u/Do9QWFOPZWg0gonwM4DOM112ce3UC9YgAWT wCdK4ZDcTOjtzstMgUcvC5Vb4SfWGLS26y8H7UgMWlD/jmSIemAyOzqT4D508Ru+IKxb 0wKkMaf3ObStDmVIh+vwRDRQ+5Pr6gkt1+WWhlPaKupW38xDmwRv5WZtA4edvZttNUPz eWXA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXd4yqIk+r90Sqne7prHcyGvtpyqK6p9Fqa3cHTmbb4Rfn42CKt pFRGlfLgOr2FGOZAfAp61e34CilDPFD/ae4whtRbNsQ+gA8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxB3X19FOaZps1V9fJJsViBy/fyOKGCITexsvukPFACZykGSfOre2mMCzkH96cP2/9nG6ob31Uj4XXu7PtpUq4= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5e82:: with SMTP id b2mr1526273lfq.59.1574161890465; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:11:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:19 +0800 Message-ID: To: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cdc7d0597b120a9" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] Comment(s) on draft-vvv-webtransport-overview X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:11:37 -0000 --0000000000004cdc7d0597b120a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Reading the WebTransport Protocol Framework, a few questions came to mind. Section 3 "Since this data can be replayed by attackers, it MUST NOT be used unless the client has explicitly requested 0-RTT" [BA] While draft-pauly-quic-interface has the concept of "Send Idempotent" which makes data eligible for sending under 0-RTT keys, the WebTransport API (https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/) has no equivalent. Is support for 0-RTT a desired feature? Section 4 "All transport protocols MUST provide datagrams, unidirectional and bidirectional streams i order to make the transport protocols easily interchangeable." [BA] Are there a set of requirements for "fallback transport" as well? 5. "buffers for them should be small and prioritized over stream data" [BA] Are you envisaging absolute priority here (e.g. datagrams can starve out stream data)? "In general, the transport should not apply aggregation algorithms (e.g., Nagle's algorithm [RFC0896]) to datagrams." [BA] draft-pauly-quic-datagram Section 5 says "This frame SHOULD be sent as as soon as possible, and MAY be coalesced with other frames". Are there situations in which coalescing/aggregation is envisaged to be desirable so that API support is needed? Also was this intended to be SHOULD NOT? NITs 1. Introduction Where should comments be sent? Presumably to webtransport@ietf.org and/or a github repo? 1.1 s/in practice, its user/in practice, its use/ 2. "a mechanism such as ICE [RFC8445] can be used" [BA] You might want to refer to ICE consent [RFC7675] instead of ICE. But since this is the WebTransport Protocol Framework (e.g. client/server) I'm not sure why ICE need be mentioned. 7. "the client must not be able to distinguish" [BA] should this be MUST NOT? --0000000000004cdc7d0597b120a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reading the WebTransport Protocol Framework, a few questio= ns came to mind.=C2=A0

Section 3

"Since this data can be replayed by attackers, it MUST NOT be used u= nless the client has explicitly requested 0-RTT"

<= div>[BA] While draft-pauly-quic-interface has the concept of "Send Ide= mpotent" which makes data eligible for sending under 0-RTT keys, the W= ebTransport API (https://= wicg.github.io/web-transport/) has no equivalent.=C2=A0 Is support for = 0-RTT a desired feature?

Section 4

<= /div>
"All transport protocols MUST provide datagrams, unidirectio= nal and bidirectional=C2=A0streams i order to make the transport protocols = easily=C2=A0interchangeable."

[BA] Are there = a set of requirements for "fallback transport" as well?=C2=A0=C2= =A0

5.=C2=A0

"buffer= s for them should be small and prioritized over stream data"

[BA] Are you envisaging absolute priority here (e.g. datagr= ams can starve out stream data)?=C2=A0=C2=A0

"= ;In general, the transport should not apply aggregation algorithms (e.g., N= agle's algorithm [RFC0896]) to datagrams."

=C2=A0[BA] draft-pauly-quic-datagram Section 5 says "This frame SHOU= LD be sent as as soon as possible, and MAY be coalesced with other frames&q= uot;.=C2=A0 Are there situations in which coalescing/aggregation is envisag= ed to be desirable so that API support is needed?=C2=A0 Also was this inten= ded to be SHOULD NOT?=C2=A0


NI= Ts

1. Introduction

Where = should comments be sent?=C2=A0 Presumably to webtransport@ietf.org and/or a github repo?=C2=A0=C2=A0

1.1

s/in practice, its user/i= n practice, its use/

2.=C2=A0

=
"a mechanism such as ICE [RFC8445] can be used"
[BA] You might want to refer to ICE consent [RFC7675] instead = of ICE.=C2=A0 But since this is the WebTransport Protocol Framework (e.g. c= lient/server) I'm not sure why ICE need be mentioned.=C2=A0
=

7.=C2=A0

"the client must= not be able to distinguish"

[BA] should this= be MUST NOT?
--0000000000004cdc7d0597b120a9-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 03:33:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9469912088C for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:33:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1xA8eks6eAV for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A566120874 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id t5so22947143ljk.0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:33:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=juiVQcQgPczGAfUOfIUUZjUoPDQIAlHk4W9wS6Ya84o=; b=PLVnZLjm4GYkjuWxWW9Nx+CwNylG9WzGLe7o4NmhW6nAtpnCVUOUD4yITsHLcX31mO PHuNwygwjYwMh0HiWgV1J49jzbVDWlBRoq4WnsvZvLgKEu3ZwscjwyZx8JydVfvZhcef Vx6bm0N+F8vbj7g226P2ob5k56MoP1mlaZHB3IzAZ5bbEezxoXvSQ9ayofw+UL6XHqDx S4AqbhMjor9ebYNlvh1zak8ZA1U6Kps+iIQPIVYp18J7N6s8S1qqVYn/mMa2kIa+ZZg/ pvQtNUtOkcNhoAjaoTgzyUFdvDKqPdHcM4OdKCFqUYBU58/58tmf8+fPUO9kH+YyLE1V pxfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=juiVQcQgPczGAfUOfIUUZjUoPDQIAlHk4W9wS6Ya84o=; b=rfF1pVr8xKdlhN85H9rOtqUNyJ/mUuUU32alWjkFJsKSDnnST+/dy0kGmM7W5RJYGd KsngvF70Cwd77l1tqAciW2qk0Tbx4tIcpj8ST7WdeTxFP7KAYQHiBMcTCfhOVbsi/ydr xuxJP9Hy0YenfezQ0ckYBboxOz8tfHQsFMV97txoJz6u7VTiv5IELbPBYuMAf6M/O3/O hPShTdZ7rRdGnwq08AaJFf62/eV0i1IQ0IBQGh6tOlr5JfGo9Tx9qdYuM4i9eR/VNr5a pAzmFgc6uBbtSjEnp56UVSnm5YfndfBgAR5uIti5uLhQo7VkaKJtgsEejSZmwn3sqBZX gNJw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW9MlSzSYntP1BXWyyft8E5MF/09M6LrScIODWRXDBYtawxh7+/ AXryX0LjFmKCh0Ur2lwtyKgSaMUbGsb5aPegMXs846m0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy3WMwwuVkaE7iqpcxYnGbJNKhC0Edl30p988vSUu8voGdCwVtRMQ8rd5hlwjIuB/16sDp8R4lUZkPHVe7qUVA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a410:: with SMTP id p16mr3481825ljn.46.1574163214705; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:33:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:33:23 +0800 Message-ID: To: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b29680597b16fa6" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] Comment(s) on draft-vvv-webtransport-quic and draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:33:40 -0000 --0000000000003b29680597b16fa6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There are a few differences between QuicTransport and Http3Transport that caught my attention. 1. 0-RTT. Section 3.3 says "0-RTT support in QuicTransport is OPTIONAL" whereas draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 4.3 indicates "Http3Transport does not support 0-RTT". Currently the WebTransport API has no support for this (optional) feature. 2. Session IDs and Pooling. draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 3 describes the Session ID (a hop-by-hop property) and the table in Section 7 indicates that pooling is supported. There is no equivalent in QuicTransport, which does not support pooling as noted in Section 7 of draft-vvv-webtransport-quic. webtransport-http3 Section 5 notes that "Session IDs are used to demultiplex streams and datagrams belonging to different Http3Transport sessions". Section 3 says "session IDs SHOULD NOT be exposed to the application". This made me wonder under what circumstances session IDs might be exposed, and also whether there were situations where a session ID or pooling might make sense for QuicTransport. Could a QuicTransport ever need to be demultiplexed in the same way as an Http3Transport? NITs 1. Would be good to indicate where comments can be sent. Presumably this would be to webtransport@ietf.org or a github repo. --0000000000003b29680597b16fa6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are a few differences between QuicTransport and Http= 3Transport that caught my attention.=C2=A0

1. 0-RTT.=C2= =A0 Section 3.3 says "0-RTT support in QuicTransport is OPTIONAL"= whereas draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 4.3 indicates "Http3Tran= sport does not support 0-RTT".=C2=A0 Currently the WebTransport API ha= s no support for this (optional) feature.=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= div>2. Session IDs and Pooling. draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 3 desc= ribes the Session ID (a hop-by-hop property) and the table in Section 7 ind= icates that pooling is supported.=C2=A0 There is no equivalent in QuicTrans= port, which does not support pooling as noted in Section 7 of draft-vvv-web= transport-quic.

webtransport-http3 Section 5 notes= that "Session IDs are used to demultiplex streams and datagrams belon= ging to different Http3Transport sessions".=C2=A0 Section 3 says "= ;session IDs SHOULD NOT be exposed to the application".=C2=A0=C2=A0

This made me wonder under what circumstances session= IDs might be exposed, and also whether there were situations where a sessi= on ID or pooling might make sense for QuicTransport.=C2=A0 Could a QuicTran= sport ever need to be demultiplexed in the same way as an Http3Transport?= =C2=A0

NITs

1.=C2=A0
<= div>
Would be good to indicate where comments can be sent.=C2= =A0 Presumably this would be to we= btransport@ietf.org or a github repo.=C2=A0
--0000000000003b29680597b16fa6-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 19:11:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87001201EF for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJPUmyxVtO5M for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 920BB1201E0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id p18so25780974ljc.6 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Hfzpvs3WOe0qcR9fRgsMmXf2Tbn40NjNozi7bPxrn38=; b=rViKPZp04M48hAzdsy58UiIR+6y8kwy/5uamCjSazwN63NaiGEwTHklKYHO0UcATZQ E1B/aqQ3oo2U9if5ERVHNypXJ/gZXzWh3iL+jFUn9eU9W4BWxrctyy2ezCmhkDUu2Ory 56lGpYjG+XJGGIu4j580XuT9DqaZTE8maV20IzpRd2KI2W1MQp1IPH5Sh+PSwOleIPKo dL0op4kvGkjKp62LLYTkxm23Zdq9eTOyC138zj824cF/OFkv7A9Wuth8eeZ6vOYw/Iz2 SX8KGa7cXdpGzah85TsWIIKPk5WDnvp41gfHT1Flq5ZT/p5zHPmnyG7WBxN2ivzVwO7l bPDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Hfzpvs3WOe0qcR9fRgsMmXf2Tbn40NjNozi7bPxrn38=; b=rI7s/AEXbaf0bloV3XzhWXmFzOAo0Ra5EwknNjvVzKTJyviffDH4ZuVlTxsvRZojQR 42I0vge3vigpSPcWIP3BMuSXi3EtK2mxItt65FFK5mexW68sYL1Wp4wWCgRQ1bgaptJt jkwDMzQlHZx2Zf/1cqPFtIdJdM72iQd85QTVDoLbvAlNsWbE1YNOkBTfK1yZuN1VlC93 KrwHGXBYB1josMxwAGE5O1dAvdJgMHTsZKgcrTNsRRjmu3w/Vn9O8OxVtfbBKL2e77/4 BVt2nKBdptUc75JZr+JD2sxhUXnErGEPp9l7N9dITI+k6QnUXzETKZPp3vBcpOO0GmUN AVrw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUk5kR6hlooiPlhLLVnaLgufrGjWMjEp9X16kLHip6cXtz4i0cZ 2Ue3Q6dCtrdNzNZVTmkjzHE3vMeGK4YM7K9tkm+RaGqP6QY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxpqO/NDmxhHb72OHlYXSmRrwV7cCbaaeGUDdjNiLTBRWbqn0IfV4aLdIKX5CzaO2NZ1pyZTzNAC/KNchi+TzM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:111a:: with SMTP id d26mr526638ljo.168.1574219509100; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:11:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:11:38 +0800 Message-ID: To: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a377660597be8a14" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] WEBTRANS BOF Agenda and Slides X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:11:54 -0000 --000000000000a377660597be8a14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" An updated WEBTRANS BOF Agenda is available here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/agenda-106-webtrans-04 Slides are available here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-webtrans-webtrans-bof-slides-00 --000000000000a377660597be8a14 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
An updated WEBTRANS BOF Agenda is available here:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/agenda-106-= webtrans-04

Slides are available here:=C2= =A0
--000000000000a377660597be8a14-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 06:16:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4157C120106 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4egbrpTfazL for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00FA012012A for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d5so20434842ljl.4 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:16:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VKaArOj+2mmeFHBlyeGo4uOtitz6kKbsqKi9gpOU6hM=; b=X7S7mBfS1Qfi+bF89fE8oxya4oKurkhWRAXNLtyAvPIWNLmCm4FJrqMkxUFfNTTjEy wvaWsLvnnH298sxwhjKqfD3G2z+qoONE8hv8jBaPgC++6ucVOzZJUDR59IMHbR8a0QxS 39FBiVBOe+Ssj1MXyngFCQHEXcM9B8IlcjupcnYH2X5vouO/nUYqGabUK5pX4ZAcdoyw mt+Fo8SO4LSFfOGqNH3efwsxDBaD9nCFifWKcBY9tvZWyDvc+vPGE61r2vbtS/31Yj2I 3H8CiBBFzoP8OSGFYkYi9dupuQGMpn3HRxzUmghwr2C87m6oc4OVPzMOjH0A05a+Olxg OBBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VKaArOj+2mmeFHBlyeGo4uOtitz6kKbsqKi9gpOU6hM=; b=Bli895p9WccT3Rz4lA/D3Qgf/37+5Pg5ftgdPYJWI7PchtwLDv5r7Jpc6KLvwp0x1o L5uokXLzWpFu2nNEh3iR1j0K0o7JZ0iOiwKHL+JV2BnNpz65ElccEkdrWhHVZtmsw3ES +JRO377rWzlErddGmE2xZaA+XRiMaxsxLmp9eKGHdRP2npyRQnA2XkdHN6/4I85lznem QM5USiUB0q0GX/UtkBG0Eo7BGqxBTUUNeX3i8LGNAXlGJfQFvTHqtQ1sqqcku107DYqO iEgDboduXNzXoCToOmpqkzi89JdplLSQElnFVgYiib3ZTunysYNwfQcx2+2naF+A1Zrl WulA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXBnESXmzA0l7F03fhrau1Y3fhq2U1LDsoGQS90uLh8K9web5RK ssC9RVuYGZFdhpayB7iRWH+TeTQCUotsq+D3/QWCWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwPewl/WVkprYhx9LiAe7p1Z/ZqJ8enqxCHTZKGUYIjMXYYo3Q4woSA6zOUaXovZMP5wT2O48NQJm4Cv5BMLO0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2914:: with SMTP id u20mr12150016lje.219.1574777805722; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:16:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Victor Vasiliev Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:16:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b63fca0598408775" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webtransport] Comment(s) on draft-vvv-webtransport-overview X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:16:50 -0000 --000000000000b63fca0598408775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Bernard, Thank you for the comments! On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:11 PM Bernard Aboba wrote: > Reading the WebTransport Protocol Framework, a few questions came to mind. > > Section 3 > > "Since this data can be replayed by attackers, it MUST NOT be used unless > the client has explicitly requested 0-RTT" > > [BA] While draft-pauly-quic-interface has the concept of "Send Idempotent" > which makes data eligible for sending under 0-RTT keys, the WebTransport > API (https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/) has no equivalent. Is > support for 0-RTT a desired feature? > Indeed. We could add it, but I am not sure it's worth it at this point in time. > Section 4 > > "All transport protocols MUST provide datagrams, unidirectional and > bidirectional streams i order to make the transport protocols > easily interchangeable." > > [BA] Are there a set of requirements for "fallback transport" as well? > Those requirements do apply to fallback transport, however the datagrams would obviously end up being reliable. 5. > > "buffers for them should be small and prioritized over stream data" > > [BA] Are you envisaging absolute priority here (e.g. datagrams can starve > out stream data)? > That was roughly my initial thought. I suspect that we would want a better scheme; #33 and #62 on the API repo have more detailed discussion of this. > "In general, the transport should not apply aggregation algorithms (e.g., > Nagle's algorithm [RFC0896]) to datagrams." > > [BA] draft-pauly-quic-datagram Section 5 says "This frame SHOULD be sent > as as soon as possible, and MAY be coalesced with other frames". Are there > situations in which coalescing/aggregation is envisaged to be desirable so > that API support is needed? Also was this intended to be SHOULD NOT? > I can imagine coalescing to be a part of the API. I have some ideas on how to do this; filed https://github.com/WICG/web-transport/issues/79. > NITs > > 1. Introduction > > Where should comments be sent? Presumably to webtransport@ietf.org > and/or a github repo? > Added a link into the preamble for all documents. > 1.1 > > s/in practice, its user/in practice, its use/ > Fixed. > 2. > > "a mechanism such as ICE [RFC8445] can be used" > > [BA] You might want to refer to ICE consent [RFC7675] instead of ICE. But > since this is the WebTransport Protocol Framework (e.g. client/server) I'm > not sure why ICE need be mentioned. > > This was a clarifying example. Changed wording. > 7. > > "the client must not be able to distinguish" > > [BA] should this be MUST NOT? > There's already a MUST NOT above, this is just clarifying text. -- Victor. --000000000000b63fca0598408775 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Bernard,

Thank you for= the comments!

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:11 PM Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Reading the WebTransport Protocol Framework, a few quest= ions came to mind.=C2=A0

Section 3

<= div>"Since this data can be replayed by attackers, it MUST NOT be used= unless the client has explicitly requested 0-RTT"

[BA] While draft-pauly-quic-interface has the concept of "Send I= dempotent" which makes data eligible for sending under 0-RTT keys, the= WebTransport API (https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/) has no equivalent.= =C2=A0 Is support for 0-RTT a desired feature?

Indeed.=C2=A0 We could add it, but I am not sure it's w= orth it at this point in time.
=C2=A0
Section 4

<= /div>
"All transport protocols MUST provide datagrams, unidirectio= nal and bidirectional=C2=A0streams i order to make the transport protocols = easily=C2=A0interchangeable."

[BA] Are there = a set of requirements for "fallback transport" as well?=C2=A0=C2= =A0

Those requirements do apply= to fallback transport, however the datagrams would obviously end up being = reliable.

5.=C2=A0

"buff= ers for them should be small and prioritized over stream data"

[BA] Are you envisaging absolute priority here (e.g. data= grams can starve out stream data)?=C2=A0=C2=A0

That was roughly my initial thought.=C2=A0 I suspect that w= e would want a better scheme; #33 and #62 on the API repo have more detaile= d discussion of this.
=C2=A0
"In general, the transport sh= ould not apply aggregation algorithms (e.g., Nagle's algorithm [RFC0896= ]) to datagrams."

=C2=A0[BA] draft-pauly-= quic-datagram Section 5 says "This frame SHOULD be sent as as soon as = possible, and MAY be coalesced with other frames".=C2=A0 Are there sit= uations in which coalescing/aggregation is envisaged to be desirable so tha= t API support is needed?=C2=A0 Also was this intended to be SHOULD NOT?=C2= =A0

I can imagine coalescing to= be a part of the API.=C2=A0 I have some ideas on how to do this; filed=C2= =A0https://gith= ub.com/WICG/web-transport/issues/79.
=C2=A0
NITs
<= div>
1. Introduction

Where should co= mments be sent?=C2=A0 Presumably to webtransport@ietf.org and/or a github repo?=C2=A0= =C2=A0

Added a link into th= e preamble for all documents.
=C2=A0
1.1

s/in practice, its user/in practice, its use/

Fixed.
=C2=A0
2.=C2=A0

"a mechanism such as ICE [RFC8445] can be used&= quot;

[BA] You might want to refer to ICE consent = [RFC7675] instead of ICE.=C2=A0 But since this is the WebTransport Protocol= Framework (e.g. client/server) I'm not sure why ICE need be mentioned.= =C2=A0


Thi= s was a clarifying example.=C2=A0 Changed wording.
=C2=A0
7.=C2=A0

"the client must not be able t= o distinguish"

[BA] should this be MUST NOT?<= /div>

There's already a MUST NOT = above, this is just clarifying text.

=C2=A0 -- Vic= tor.
--000000000000b63fca0598408775-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 06:51:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53580120886 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:51:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n_te0-AFfff4 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65E4F120885 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id y5so1627335lfy.7 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:51:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ifTtYTFkkbnY6CZE0TtuFGGngU6nw2ECzsga0wJjQuM=; b=uPcmh0i4sYSY5/WGgt/xd1Mzhec56C1CG6cG/+5yVt3hXiZMaKq4bAQKZmbUhivPTt PBEvySWBfRXTPDvSBNzoYD/ODD1CdQQ6+8k7DBaZPXGKyG52amVD0Dy9zNt/ehRDFkrf 6N4H17VFm7ATaY71IIhMt65qzGGf4czsvTHf9mMWD4/H6VEXfqCfYTwof0t8Vm2IC0Dd 6xyrrhUIS4lmauWst0FAMkAURohkwQKkq5yMu63Ee7aaj/FiZDzSaSrE6GUYtoQfmmna uCzry7aVXQXJLQm9p3/bK1wUlmX47kxWuAKNschP0ByTFSUZvYIzqjPXyawCPBgc3dvM 9V/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ifTtYTFkkbnY6CZE0TtuFGGngU6nw2ECzsga0wJjQuM=; b=hlGyyeSHfl+FYFdTS0rQmOqsqSAjRRaPUXAs56u+doj8+3Zqfk/fwgq/BkzwAOPEd8 uTlSVwOuNjrtZmrHu+FXZzXcVsUiHemksV/J5r1F9KdS9NuaAMAbT9vqMc5UNpsh0vQl AFIivhR3KQzxSEOcf+uuBYqyBHOMHN2wkpTkKdyQrGrkrOyp7vibnHeekMPwMbkKwn2v s3wv6ztlcIeYGStDXy2RvfuXK6GZDuAZ0CjTCd0XgnZjqDnM4AjrAFmgJp/9gfpID/bE Yafgkx1JUP88ZgwlH1Tj1Ds3hjItYiJF4s3ja+IdlVYyZRl21jt4yfePtv4ka2/cZ1PK czDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWw0Ab84jNR7tIYD6YdGZ198V/O5v9r6+6a8YieoBhYFowkJgSE R0UR+QUueaqOCDoPiHvsfMHmHyTUwjiTFkR+jK0Isw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqysCgnCcOhIFEd0bMrDqmsJBjc3KkB3S/uuEn6MS+zuMK+qk/I0KXT0O1Uz7gZDIGPFhpu5zizT56oGHKEn0h0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4a61:: with SMTP id q1mr15626168lfp.36.1574779901089; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:51:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Victor Vasiliev Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:51:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: webtransport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009b1c79059841047a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Webtransport] Comment(s) on draft-vvv-webtransport-quic and draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:51:45 -0000 --0000000000009b1c79059841047a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 6:33 AM Bernard Aboba wrote: > There are a few differences between QuicTransport and Http3Transport that > caught my attention. > > 1. 0-RTT. Section 3.3 says "0-RTT support in QuicTransport is OPTIONAL" > whereas draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 4.3 indicates "Http3Transport > does not support 0-RTT". Currently the WebTransport API has no support for > this (optional) feature. > Indeed. I would not be surprised if we could add 0-RTT support into the API, but that is somewhat of a complex endeavor. > 2. Session IDs and Pooling. draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 3 > describes the Session ID (a hop-by-hop property) and the table in Section 7 > indicates that pooling is supported. There is no equivalent in > QuicTransport, which does not support pooling as noted in Section 7 of > draft-vvv-webtransport-quic. > > webtransport-http3 Section 5 notes that "Session IDs are used to > demultiplex streams and datagrams belonging to different Http3Transport > sessions". Section 3 says "session IDs SHOULD NOT be exposed to the > application". > > This made me wonder under what circumstances session IDs might be exposed, > and also whether there were situations where a session ID or pooling might > make sense for QuicTransport. Could a QuicTransport ever need to be > demultiplexed in the same way as an Http3Transport? > I can imagine exposing session ID as a part of a debugging interface. The main problem is that they are not that useful. I don't believe pooling QuicTransports would be useful. It would make things like stats really hard to do. > NITs > > 1. > > Would be good to indicate where comments can be sent. Presumably this > would be to webtransport@ietf.org or a github repo. > Fixed. -- Victor. --0000000000009b1c79059841047a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 6:33 AM Bernard A= boba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com= > wrote:
There are a few differences bet= ween QuicTransport and Http3Transport that caught my attention.=C2=A0
<= br>
1. 0-RTT.=C2=A0 Section 3.3 says "0-RTT support in QuicT= ransport is OPTIONAL" whereas draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 4.3= indicates "Http3Transport does not support 0-RTT".=C2=A0 Current= ly the WebTransport API has no support for this (optional) feature.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

Indeed.=C2=A0 I would no= t be surprised if we could add 0-RTT support into the API, but that is some= what of a complex endeavor.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
2. Session IDs a= nd Pooling. draft-vvv-webtransport-http3 Section 3 describes the Session ID= (a hop-by-hop property) and the table in Section 7 indicates that pooling = is supported.=C2=A0 There is no equivalent in QuicTransport, which does not= support pooling as noted in Section 7 of draft-vvv-webtransport-quic.
<= /div>

webtransport-http3 Section 5 notes that "Sess= ion IDs are used to demultiplex streams and datagrams belonging to differen= t Http3Transport sessions".=C2=A0 Section 3 says "session IDs SHO= ULD NOT be exposed to the application".=C2=A0=C2=A0

This made me wonder under what circumstances session IDs might be ex= posed, and also whether there were situations where a session ID or pooling= might make sense for QuicTransport.=C2=A0 Could a QuicTransport ever need = to be demultiplexed in the same way as an Http3Transport?=C2=A0

I can imagine exposing session ID as a= part of a debugging interface.=C2=A0 The main problem is that they are not= that useful.

I don't believe pooli= ng QuicTransports=C2=A0would be useful.=C2=A0 It would make things like sta= ts really hard to do.
=C2=A0
NITs

= 1.=C2=A0

Would be good to indicate where comments = can be sent.=C2=A0 Presumably this would be to webtransport@ietf.org or a github repo.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Fixed.

=C2=A0 -= - Victor.
--0000000000009b1c79059841047a-- From nobody Wed Nov 27 10:25:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: webtransport@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B6112092D for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yAKePGup2qXs for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40CC2120823 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m6so18179050ljc.1 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XtY2ZnViePdKR6b3H59TQkK0Rv9yxf5QwKJ2WMD4wUw=; b=TA2KNMTN6vCJeApkC334LHx1eSeFNfzTHuFtD67MN1tc9HlUG0z4AWtbLmuOjT4tyV YBKNJHkSEglXdiB4+8cBsFV09Yii93rX5lwOt9N41bCwzkoCZqu90tEeoBouHyb5MlKu tP1B/SWR8YusU4MlX1EQ9cYzqGUhJ4P28Z0jfescRzwjS77uRUByGBsHc6zSRjWjDUZt xoq9q3DfCSQJvDb1driSwMgy7wDtVtlMMAJ34/3fG4ypZ3yzFlC7Vf0rZTXoJTDHjCcH bRHv4Jr0P8PLb4VGUV0+R1uiSiq+0WFHJU6EUeOjTtwdVUWTlwWauravtq1uqqNo0lZB vF3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XtY2ZnViePdKR6b3H59TQkK0Rv9yxf5QwKJ2WMD4wUw=; b=gh8KpJiwtkLAfJ46vNMKOVjmGXJ9Za3tT0PNJegfC9kifEmO4vRmHpbHYv0wL+fgVX Q9MD2lpITKoVR50sGgf3CWwGq5n/WhsAHbLcx2PLzflzwalFkE3ntUz3YMf373hW0dbn eC6fMzNgIQSpk4JMA7DAOWaiCAuZX8eVE6ntWIJHhwJPcfElvqaapGIp8Gi9deDWYs3+ oNeabaRRcQrD23NgYTabMRNi/nbERhLnRj86cA7kWsGltM4QvGVpN8KRkApIAx8DsK0/ QK43Esh/QI8wADBUbthIwoeDX7NaiuHko+fZDL9XYqfFyuU2FGBHXGkLPkvzEDORnuE0 MgRA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXoSwY6qLBRYNw/KxuJDVOch040P1k5iItGZWzDqlfwkyq6hvNF XeeXxkSI28xqipG0gfztft+kPrn16R9eLt4Tc93e2Ta/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqylGJ3FwhPcFanLZLegCt7eneoP53cutH3JYBJN2PF/TFWNuMTVYtFZOmWq9Uz7N3qoyVIrkDIn+RRRlCZ2THY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9016:: with SMTP id h22mr31532202ljg.137.1574879116227; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: David Schinazi Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:25:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: WebTransport Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004977c60598581eee" Archived-At: Subject: [Webtransport] Minutes for WEBTRANS BoF at IETF 106 X-BeenThere: webtransport@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 18:25:20 -0000 --0000000000004977c60598581eee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi everyone, The minutes for the WEBTRANS BoF at IETF 106 in Singapore have now been posted: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-webtrans/ Please take a minute to verify that your statements were recorded accurately. Special thanks to Cullen Jennings for taking minutes and Winston Felix Handte for jabber-scribing. David --0000000000004977c60598581eee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone,

The minutes for the WEBTRA= NS BoF at IETF 106 in Singapore have now been posted:

Please= take a minute to verify=C2=A0that your statements were=C2=A0recorded accur= ately.

Special thanks to=C2=A0Cullen Jennings for = taking minutes and=C2=A0Winston Felix Handte for jabber-scribing.

David
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