From vesely@tana.it Wed Sep 14 09:00:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B6521F8B8F for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OpjneZJTMoh0 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C9B21F8B8E for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316016175; bh=9Yp4HUf3/1/BM7FPq5an7U4b6TmFVGaPRvhSBrNZjUE=; l=937; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Fu1sYRoOulj6sDdAgH1XO64ishscfgxfnfAqMxEPlo/8gVv2sXZC91xV8Q2CHBSvq aEDNR+NZyQwJQPV8paex6/5lp34/EEELcesRC0QxRixuBptvsetYpqeJ5EnerfRM5/ jtH8Y00YjDcX51tjcIay5NizXJGmbgdaNPimqHXk= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:02:55 +0200 id 00000000005DC033.000000004E70D02F.00005F89 Message-ID: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:02:49 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:00:50 -0000 Hi all, I just subscribed to this list, with the purpose of putting this question. Most RIRs are overhauling their whois databases in order to fix abuse point of contacts. That includes removing query limits, and possibly provide "abuse-poc-finder" utilities. However, they are bound to come up with five different things, and leave the caching as is. The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data over rDNS queries? For example, dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt That would either return "no record" (3) or the abuse email address, according to whois information (in ARIN, in this example.) IANA would delegate zones of that domain to RIRs, mirroring IP allocations. Each RIR would populate its zones according to abuse-mailboxes present in their whois database, with a suitable TTL. That would allow full automation of abuse reporting. Simple and easy, isn't it? Ciao Ale From johnl@iecc.com Wed Sep 14 19:43:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626E621F84FD for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.156 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.156 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWavDvOifCGy for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A910721F84ED for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 84654 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2011 02:45:31 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 15 Sep 2011 02:45:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 70125 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2011 02:45:31 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 15 Sep 2011 02:45:31 -0000 Date: 15 Sep 2011 02:45:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20110915024509.11349.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: vesely@tana.it Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:43:23 -0000 >The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data >over rDNS queries? For example, > > dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt If you can get at least three RIRs to sign up to do this, that would be great. If not, we'd just be wasting our time. R's, John From aservin@lacnic.net Thu Sep 15 08:01:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8E521F850B for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CP2fN95wXc0L for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E1221F84B8 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-7-200.lacnic.net.uy (unknown [200.7.85.188]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454D3308432; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:03:59 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_646AF0DE-958F-49D4-934D-C3595746C323" From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:04:00 -0300 Message-Id: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> To: Alessandro Vesely X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:01:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_646AF0DE-958F-49D4-934D-C3595746C323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And probably automation to abuse the system as well. Regards, -as On 14 Sep 2011, at 13:02, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > That would allow full automation of abuse reporting. Simple and easy, > isn't it? --Apple-Mail=_646AF0DE-958F-49D4-934D-C3595746C323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii And probably automation to abuse = the system as = well.

Regards,
-as

O= n 14 Sep 2011, at 13:02, Alessandro Vesely wrote:

That would = allow full automation of abuse reporting.  Simple and = easy,
isn't it?

= --Apple-Mail=_646AF0DE-958F-49D4-934D-C3595746C323-- From vesely@tana.it Thu Sep 15 08:16:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8A521F869E for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfhorlZBcLFT for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD3721F8AAA for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:16:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316099943; bh=D/UaUborob0/mu43aF5VkadcUWiz3+dsuzzEOVXat5c=; l=445; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=j0MEfJQaDoMMTnVxm3+YnTBHRagUPE7OrI3e+BCyGMgyXQYSQFfCkdFibc2fOLK++ QJcJ7QKQpehWtZZxtHE+f79zcsdyLUeSAbdWieBq4PEldI5whFbSZ2Dphxqb/uxO/G rupK9TPDzSTSeC8iPJtEboX+hhDm4mbDIC64dl5k= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:19:03 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E721767.00002990 Message-ID: <4E721767.7050200@tana.it> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:19:03 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110915024509.11349.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110915024509.11349.qmail@joyce.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:16:53 -0000 On 15/Sep/11 04:45, John Levine wrote: >>The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data >>over rDNS queries? For example, >> >> dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt > > If you can get at least three RIRs to sign up to do this, that would > be great. My Gosh, that seems one of those tasks like finding 50 Righteous in Sodom... Wouldn't one RIR be enough, for starting? I have to start from one anyway. From vesely@tana.it Thu Sep 15 08:31:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC9821F849E for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehXw7UeRO3Cm for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FA621F848A for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316100828; bh=LfWgrHf0BmysijjleJLlJoqGondeXvP4s+Wu6HBpbLE=; l=673; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=eS7Bbn71CRfCzo/Q6S6HW0tCWSRtfl9A11XZgu34UKCOX3ptk/9mB9eEFshdXuNNn YVWI0BQgFzG7RALZ4plo9F9b7Zd9TML5DJk2UYvttKgy3v1gbfq8YGAS3G+beiXB3X m9icUWi2CeQIyC8xxIUBLv5RCleF1Mg0j0bXQJeo= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:33:48 +0200 id 00000000005DC03F.000000004E721ADC.00006D04 Message-ID: <4E721ADC.20101@tana.it> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:33:48 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:31:37 -0000 On 15/Sep/11 17:04, Arturo Servin wrote: > On 14 Sep 2011, at 13:02, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > >> That would allow full automation of abuse reporting. > > And probably automation to abuse the system as well. I don't think it would make much difference, since those addresses are already published. Most of them are red herrings, like abuse@, that you couldn't hide anyway. The net effect of the change is the possibility to specify algorithms for abuse reporting, thus moving it from black art to logical empiricism. Then, of course, we cannot say that reporting all (or most) spam will eventually make it cease. I think trying is the only way to know. From michele@blacknight.ie Thu Sep 15 08:36:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F55821F8510 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:36:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.950, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id He66bH13JfO4 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.blacknight.ie (exchange.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EBC21F850B for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkexchmbx02.blacknight.local ([fe80::d4d7:819a:4fb5:c923]) by bkexchhubcas01.blacknight.local ([fe80::3ca9:6bf1:bd5d:24b%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:39:04 +0100 From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" To: Alessandro Vesely Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvgAWnY9rM9ep0O4QbA+RRJVZpVOerIAgAAIUwCAABI8IQ== Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:39:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> , <4E721ADC.20101@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E721ADC.20101@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-IE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:36:55 -0000 There's already an active discussion on abuse objects in RIPE. If that were= adopted I'd be happy, as I'm really sick of people sending notifications t= o me directly - totally ignoring our abuse contact *sigh* Mr. Michele Neylon Blacknight http://Blacknight.tel Via iPhone so excuse typos and brevity On 15 Sep 2011, at 17:34, "Alessandro Vesely" wrote: > On 15/Sep/11 17:04, Arturo Servin wrote: >> On 14 Sep 2011, at 13:02, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >>=20 >>> That would allow full automation of abuse reporting. >>=20 >> And probably automation to abuse the system as well. >=20 > I don't think it would make much difference, since those addresses are > already published. Most of them are red herrings, like abuse@, that > you couldn't hide anyway. >=20 > The net effect of the change is the possibility to specify algorithms > for abuse reporting, thus moving it from black art to logical empiricism. >=20 > Then, of course, we cannot say that reporting all (or most) spam will > eventually make it cease. I think trying is the only way to know. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From andy@arin.net Thu Sep 15 09:01:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85DB21F8511 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfxtlUIkUAof for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A45F21F8AAA for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 8367D16517C; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4196D16516E; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:03:24 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH01.corp.arin.net ([169.254.1.171]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:03:33 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Alessandro Vesely Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvfM4u+1ewOC/EC3uLmry0QbFpVO3yWA Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:03:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <46A73ABD986CA64BA869C652E5FDE9C0@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:01:28 -0000 On Sep 14, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data > over rDNS queries? For example, >=20 > dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt >=20 This would require RIRs to stand up zones that populate a record for every = IP address under their stewardship. Think about how that would work in IPv6= ? Special server software would be required that duplicates the IP search fun= ctions already found in Whois. There is also the issue of obtaining the Abu= se POC for the most specific network vs any of the upstream networks, and t= he political implications of getting IANA to stand up another zone. Additio= nally, this would be complex in ERX space. You could ask that network operators populate their zones with a TXT, but y= ou would still have the problem that not all networks fall neatly on a labe= l boundary. I think this problem is best left outside of DNS. -andy From drc@virtualized.org Thu Sep 15 09:26:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F023C21F8A95 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_52=1, J_BACKHAIR_53=1, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gm4YGzktP1ON for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D24E21F8A69 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [173.245.57.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B8691704E; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:28:39 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_87170A5B-C851-4D2F-BB13-B6D63705186A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:28:29 -0700 Message-Id: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> To: Alessandro Vesely X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:26:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_87170A5B-C851-4D2F-BB13-B6D63705186A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On Sep 14, 2011, at 9:02 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > Most RIRs are overhauling their whois databases in order to fix abuse = point of contacts. =20 Your registration dollars/euros/etc. at work. > That includes removing query limits, and possibly > provide "abuse-poc-finder" utilities. However, they are bound to come > up with five different things, and leave the caching as is. Unfortunately, all too true. > The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data > over rDNS queries? For example, >=20 > dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt Interesting idea, but: For one thing, I'd recommend using the RP RR, not TXT. For another, getting the RIRs to do anything in unison appears to be a = _major_ undertaking. For another, associating it with IANA can potentially result in a really = unpleasant amount of politics, both ICANN<->RIR as well as ICANN<->US = Government. > That would allow full automation of abuse reporting. Simple and easy, = isn't it? 'Simple and easy', particularly in the context of providing common = interfaces to the outside world, doesn't really appear to be a goal of = the RIR system. Regards, -drc --Apple-Mail=_87170A5B-C851-4D2F-BB13-B6D63705186A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOcie2AAoJEIzZ2DQOJFbKFBMIALJHClNT1/SZ3wFP0/5LGJDZ 0AiOR9PNRpg43OZOuRH4Vzxe11W2FhH0sZ+40uVlHVPw8QXjsEqVE7iCp1r5Z/zS KGYXlAv+DJVMl9sHmRzdX7obmapwpT2Kj3f/XmypBGeLW5Cv2lBeiayFVj/jRPky QBGTMlyvv1EwItcfBdUeMTeMgyoOQ1Z4vbkxuvo3Wagn/I+ZcBmCqUlRZ1bOE7Ql UnHAS/3+hhwtPx9em9NnWSeJuK/03EeziRaiW5d+End3VkIUaCF26kNrt6x0dtew HWFijfoihhI0YLtjIFYXJXtdyZdU1S9IZziiUjCtUpdjvoGkpHGKTC/tFcmfwCA= =v3BA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_87170A5B-C851-4D2F-BB13-B6D63705186A-- From drc@virtualized.org Thu Sep 15 09:28:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE3521F8B9B for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvLIHYbvmihE for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D3521F8B92 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [173.245.57.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6E341704E; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6C098AC2-D04F-4674-B7B2-00099C360D9E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:30:25 -0700 Message-Id: <4A85A84E-1503-45C5-B867-0EE491E5B8C9@virtualized.org> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> To: Arturo Servin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:28:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6C098AC2-D04F-4674-B7B2-00099C360D9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Arturo Servin wrote: > And probably automation to abuse the system as well. What sort of abuse are you imagining? And how would the n (n<=3D5) = different systems based on whois the RIRs are likely going to come up = with be able to avoid that abuse? Regards, -drc --Apple-Mail=_6C098AC2-D04F-4674-B7B2-00099C360D9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOcigiAAoJEIzZ2DQOJFbKKGAIAKwU/3lfbSSgDUXGnPEU7xOQ jcQTXllNtBOWWvATmKiigbfqesEFw4qO1ISuuk/IzzhhFbnWJub+YQqbc/VryIgZ pvxVLYea11fEtW+3jUAkEJCvEaA7gKY3lNBuvtpBkNt875rMBn0bkPh3j30xyGSD P9OpnZh3ZSK4nicYTg8GBCoo/dIg7vK7JAsbfmGB00UlDGKNZZFwDIB7pbv5lhdy j4sgIvP1DcgCjtVlj6sOMY79i5hZGXg6yF1PkypgbqwjIoivGXgOxzBsr+JVmvi0 XPpuPJIFr/JVAjKTMxmFQtrNpezc6QgGDuuhEt7GETgCjF5TOxbi6nJesFd0JQg= =WX3I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6C098AC2-D04F-4674-B7B2-00099C360D9E-- From aservin@lacnic.net Thu Sep 15 09:51:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE9521F8B2D for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.272, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lW4IlUw3hjJH for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7F121F8715 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:10e7:d349:fa17:c004] (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:10e7:d349:fa17:c004]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25195308447; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:21 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <4A85A84E-1503-45C5-B867-0EE491E5B8C9@virtualized.org> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:20 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <4A85A84E-1503-45C5-B867-0EE491E5B8C9@virtualized.org> To: David Conrad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:51:25 -0000 On 15 Sep 2011, at 13:30, David Conrad wrote: > On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Arturo Servin wrote: >> And probably automation to abuse the system as well. >=20 > What sort of abuse are you imagining? =20 Harvesting contact information. Then SPAM, junk mail, marketing, = you name it. > And how would the n (n<=3D5) different systems based on whois the RIRs = are likely going to come up with be able to avoid that abuse? So far is rate limiting. Not perfect, not really a great = solution that's why we are here, isn't it? >=20 > Regards, > -drc >=20 Regards, -as= From drc@virtualized.org Thu Sep 15 10:24:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1669711E807F for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6b0oDPqi5qh8 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5BD11E8073 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [173.245.57.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3A041704E; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:26:35 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DB7AE88-A3A2-4952-A9B7-A94C8024FD38"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:26:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5B2D92FF-6789-4F67-AB47-820D3FCC76AA@virtualized.org> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <4A85A84E-1503-45C5-B867-0EE491E5B8C9@virtualized.org> To: Arturo Servin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:24:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9DB7AE88-A3A2-4952-A9B7-A94C8024FD38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:53 AM, Arturo Servin wrote: >> What sort of abuse are you imagining? =20 > Harvesting contact information. Then SPAM, junk mail, marketing, = you name it. >> And how would the n (n<=3D5) different systems based on whois the = RIRs are likely going to come up with be able to avoid that abuse? > So far is rate limiting. Not perfect, not really a great = solution that's why we are here, isn't it? I thought Alessandro said the RIRs were removing rate limiting (and = developing special tools) for abuse POCs. Since abuse contacts must be published in various forms for various = reasons, it would seem they are already subject to harvesting for spam. Regards, -drc --Apple-Mail=_9DB7AE88-A3A2-4952-A9B7-A94C8024FD38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOcjVKAAoJEIzZ2DQOJFbKztAIAL3a2HUNqkyaoc8VA3u/1Zcr IX817mgKLAinVMA3fhiuqrog3nav+qKmUgfcsq6mZKm/UWCLQP1qIEozqiGP4j+u X7MoKa2a0yK/7jIundgpUd324qFi+eHHB/nOLQTF3VOAAnNM8GwtL9dOh83Xdaiv B/sgHvoffSv80G4lJAEXYU6nvp8lAKmspQnGveNNbbBJLtco9QatgHyBqx57fiZQ 7wLgNTXCNwBOs/6zugRw9HMlx2m2SYxZ3Xsr4l2s6Qqu15NQCkaLx98CwuJLbzvT Dy3XPsf3bWjOx52n/YfU/HZNRBZjKb7BipqiAbrzMknqZz+L77LltbwHXIgJ9lE= =1Bdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9DB7AE88-A3A2-4952-A9B7-A94C8024FD38-- From warren@kumari.net Thu Sep 15 13:53:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F88721F8AAF for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7TaX+rOYTSmC for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vimes.kumari.net (vimes.kumari.net [198.186.192.250]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE9321F8AAA for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-172-19-119-117.cbf.corp.google.com (unknown [64.13.52.115]) by vimes.kumari.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7BFE1B416DA; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: <5B2D92FF-6789-4F67-AB47-820D3FCC76AA@virtualized.org> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:56:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <4A85A84E-1503-45C5-B867-0EE491E5B8C9@virtualized.org> <5B2D92FF-6789-4F67-AB47-820D3FCC76AA@virtualized.org> To: David Conrad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:53:52 -0000 On Sep 15, 2011, at 1:26 PM, David Conrad wrote: > On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:53 AM, Arturo Servin wrote: >>> What sort of abuse are you imagining? =20 >> Harvesting contact information. Then SPAM, junk mail, marketing, = you name it. >>> And how would the n (n<=3D5) different systems based on whois the = RIRs are likely going to come up with be able to avoid that abuse? >> So far is rate limiting. Not perfect, not really a great = solution that's why we are here, isn't it? >=20 > I thought Alessandro said the RIRs were removing rate limiting (and = developing special tools) for abuse POCs. >=20 > Since abuse contacts must be published in various forms for various = reasons, it would seem they are already subject to harvesting for spam. And it always confuses me when things like 'abuse@', 'postmaster@', = 'root@' and 'spam@' end up on spam lists -- a simple regexp would remove = them and seems not self reporting yourself to the abuse folk would be an = obvious win... W >=20 > Regards, > -drc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From drc@virtualized.org Thu Sep 15 14:35:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2204E11E80A6 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.334, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8q9BhEH7QgZq for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466F911E80A2 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [173.245.57.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A8211704E; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:38:10 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_75A48967-CF7A-4DAA-914F-B657338373DB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:38:00 -0700 Message-Id: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> To: Andy Newton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:35:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_75A48967-CF7A-4DAA-914F-B657338373DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andy, On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Andy Newton wrote: > This would require RIRs to stand up zones that populate a record for = every IP address under their stewardship. Think about how that would = work in IPv6? Seems to be feasible for in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa. > Special server software would be required that duplicates the IP = search functions already found in Whois. Why? As far as I understand what is being proposed, the idea is to = allow for folks to be able to look up an abuse POC given the IP address = of somebody being "bad". Why would one need a search capability? > There is also the issue of obtaining the Abuse POC for the most = specific network vs any of the upstream networks, This could probably be dealt with by naming conventions, e.g., = _parent.10.abuse. or somesuch. > and the political implications of getting IANA to stand up another = zone. Indeed. There are two political complications with using an "IANA = zone": 1) figuring out whether it becomes part of the IANA functions contract = between ICANN and the U.S. Dept. of Commerce 2) figuring out how to get the RIRs to actually play along. At least one of these is likely intractable. However, there are plenty = of alternative domains that could be used, e.g., ABUSE-POC. or = even NRO.NET. > Additionally, this would be complex in ERX space. How would it be any more complicated than in-addr.arpa in the ERX space? > You could ask that network operators populate their zones with a TXT, = but you would still have the problem that not all networks fall neatly = on a label boundary. Sorry, not sure what you mean. Are you saying an RFC 2317-like solution = wouldn't work? > I think this problem is best left outside of DNS. Perhaps so, but I'm not fully convinced as yet. In any event, I don't = have a strong opinion as to the protocol/mechanism/data model/schema for = an abuse POC system. What I do have a strong opinion on is that we stop = having N (1 < N <=3D 6) _different_ systems that do exactly the same = thing. Regards, -drc --Apple-Mail=_75A48967-CF7A-4DAA-914F-B657338373DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOcnBBAAoJEIzZ2DQOJFbK6OYH/Rr+eanH8TeYsuN4L0z0eWhF IrPU+/VQq2DtRVNkhsZTiuiqJlOJk4It1rLYJwCJzV6UDJCi1tuOhyRohzv0GjWy K8Dne2148Dbu4eb1/zFHaF74v32SwFL02JiOhi/j1/lE6uR1vgRnEcMOU9Li56q1 7NSqzMF+nlcH5+nP2qSbB0JAwY6GPIPL9l7cyyiWa2afjKnN7jFrtPERAIBY2ueZ x3EofsDeyyFVl3pLo3DN/Cj5MTFYX9sYv5prWVz/L9VTeTIweUKqFEB9HMeZAeyn 8UTCxXDBoC4sQdeFDoIzLV6xl85nbkPcw81pYvH8pGNcX6czjCte5Edg4HRZGzY= =ECgv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_75A48967-CF7A-4DAA-914F-B657338373DB-- From andy@arin.net Fri Sep 16 05:36:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253B421F8A67 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 05:36:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CyGBA5cq7tum for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 05:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B5E21F8A4E for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 05:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 136D1213672; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F1921363C; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:37:05 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH01.corp.arin.net ([169.254.1.171]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:37:47 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: David Conrad Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvfM4u+1ewOC/EC3uLmry0QbFpVO3yWAgABddACAAPtjgA== Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:37:46 +0000 Message-ID: <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <19B96B23B8A879478B17D397886627AE@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:36:01 -0000 On Sep 15, 2011, at 5:38 PM, David Conrad wrote: >> Special server software would be required that duplicates the IP search = functions already found in Whois. >=20 > Why? As far as I understand what is being proposed, the idea is to allow= for folks to be able to look up an abuse POC given the IP address of someb= ody being "bad". Why would one need a search capability? Are you suggesting we construct zones with a record for every IP address in= use today? Again, how would that work in IPv6? That's why the IP address s= earch function is needed.=20 >> There is also the issue of obtaining the Abuse POC for the most specific= network vs any of the upstream networks, >=20 > This could probably be dealt with by naming conventions, e.g., _parent.10= .abuse. or somesuch. Again, how do you construct a name for parent/child relationship that does = not occur at an rDNS label boundary, especially when you do not know where = that parent/child relationship occurs? >> Additionally, this would be complex in ERX space. >=20 > How would it be any more complicated than in-addr.arpa in the ERX space? Again, if you have to formulate an RR for every IP address in use, the ERX = processes become unworkable. The RIRs would need to devise a mechanism for = synthesis, which is totally unlike how ERX works today. >=20 > Perhaps so, but I'm not fully convinced as yet. In any event, I don't ha= ve a strong opinion as to the protocol/mechanism/data model/schema for an a= buse POC system. What I do have a strong opinion on is that we stop having= N (1 < N <=3D 6) _different_ systems that do exactly the same thing. Nobody is disagreeing with the need for a common solution. I don't know how= you came to the conclusion given that two RIRs have put forward drafts on = their implementations and are here to work on this problem. What does seem = unworkable is to ask for a special-use mechanism for one use case only and = to ignore all the other use cases, especially when that special-use mechani= sm is unlike all the work that has been put forth in this space. Cooperatio= n is a multi-party endeavor. -andy= From vesely@tana.it Fri Sep 16 06:33:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3CB21F8BD3 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.087, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URGBIZ=0.725, URG_BIZ=1.585] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2rz+uGQ6xpMl for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (mail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F66A21F8BBF for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316180138; bh=DGGoLc+B3hl1ytsvq9iRYEkbe+DF5RKAu8AcXSl64eQ=; l=2077; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=V0Xr+1cgIxjLHtahSbw2gf5DUJGaF+o7AQ+4f8yeb+j7eQIktpJXp3rJBlou7uhXc eRcEFi8qL1k2dkpSM8t2WWEAngo9OSO0RP9rQ92SYsMtK6uAIWMMxy7NkL/Cj/n+pG njPxn2D0/jRQ+gMEZowU+C0jHJlaeP+KSEoZ25qg= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:35:38 +0200 id 00000000005DC042.000000004E7350AA.0000585F Message-ID: <4E7350AA.9000709@tana.it> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:35:38 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:33:26 -0000 On 15/Sep/11 18:03, Andy Newton wrote: > On Sep 14, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > >> The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data >> over rDNS queries? For example, >> >> dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt > > This would require RIRs to stand up zones that populate a record > for every IP address under their stewardship. Think about how that > would work in IPv6? IPv6 could be done differently, as it seems less urgent. There is a proposal [JL] to avoid cache blasting by forcing clients to discover the granularity of an IPv6 allocation and then query the correct range. That increases the number of queries, but also increases the likelihood of cache hits. Alternatively, it could be structured as a whitelist, like the Dutch [WL] or other IPv6 whitelists. [JL] http://www.irtf.org/mail-archive/web/asrg/current/msg16434.html [WL] http://www.ipv6whitelist.eu/ > Special server software would be required that duplicates the IP > search functions already found in Whois. There is also the issue of > obtaining the Abuse POC for the most specific network vs any of the > upstream networks, and the political implications of getting IANA > to stand up another zone. Additionally, this would be complex in > ERX space. As David suggested, IPv4 can strictly mirror the structure of in-addr.arpa, but getting the TXT record from whois. > You could ask that network operators populate their zones with a > TXT, but you would still have the problem that not all networks > fall neatly on a label boundary. No, differently than in-addr.arpa, this new zone shouldn't be further delegated. This way, one can be sure it faithfully adheres to whois data. Manual investigations would continue to use the full, richer database served by whois, e.g. to check who is the record maintainer, what is the last update, and the like. > I think this problem is best left outside of DNS. As John said, we'd better wait for some RIRs to sign up to (possibly) do this if we want to talk reality. From vesely@tana.it Fri Sep 16 06:44:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736C821F8C1D for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.915, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, J_BACKHAIR_52=1, J_BACKHAIR_53=1, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iQS5-JjJcT0c for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (mail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9950421F8C18 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:44:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316180782; bh=9EuM4NgXJ+DCm+S1i88jLw+qrGZlkSL9mqcTuJXC7b8=; l=1303; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Nz7NNYqho8fhu6K+P0UbvA2x6gA2teQu25bX298N+WvKZIdeRapCm/HfoMHQSuuZk F+SkWB/LGhkewVjTChlHIXQt1fVyDdBUuFcI2exsns73vhmkbj1V6b/hg23o4TmA3Z tqaN3X46EJbyA9j4QE2IK7mVq8Edu3H3XGA/1RA8= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:46:22 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E73532E.00000A98 Message-ID: <4E73532E.7080600@tana.it> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:46:22 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:44:09 -0000 On 15/Sep/11 18:28, David Conrad wrote: > On Sep 14, 2011, at 9:02 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> The question is: why not have a global domain providing such data >> over rDNS queries? For example, >> >> dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-poc.iana.org txt > > Interesting idea, but: > > For one thing, I'd recommend using the RP RR, not TXT. RP has a problem with "@". TXT seems to be the de-facto standard for this kind of use. > For another, getting the RIRs to do anything in unison appears to be a _major_ undertaking. Yes, I'd say _the_ major undertaking. All practical stuff has to be done there. > For another, associating it with IANA can potentially result in a > really unpleasant amount of politics, both ICANN<->RIR as well as > ICANN<->US Government. I thought about IANA because it already coordinates the global IP number space, besides doing IETF specific assignments. It would make sense that they serve directly non-public addresses, like they do for similar .arpa zones. >> Simple and easy, isn't it? > > 'Simple and easy', particularly in the context of providing common > interfaces to the outside world, doesn't really appear to be a goal > of the RIR system. I wonder if the NRO is --or should be-- providing any coordination on this topic. From andy@hxr.us Fri Sep 16 10:22:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D586D21F8B70 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:22:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uci7YeSikTd9 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f51.google.com (mail-vw0-f51.google.com [209.85.212.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0729321F8B63 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so6314355vws.24 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.188.37 with SMTP id fx5mr1434557vdc.415.1316193859496; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zx80.arin.net (core.arin.net. [192.149.252.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x19sm7707373vdf.10.2011.09.16.10.24.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Andy Newton In-Reply-To: <4E7350AA.9000709@tana.it> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:23:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1D08451E-5165-419B-A7DA-5C89A25CDE9B@hxr.us> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <4E7350AA.9000709@tana.it> To: Alessandro Vesely X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:22:06 -0000 On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:35 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > IPv6 could be done differently, as it seems less urgent. Finding a solution that works equally well with both IPv4 and IPv6 is = preferred. > No, differently than in-addr.arpa, this new zone shouldn't be further > delegated. This way, one can be sure it faithfully adheres to whois > data. Manual investigations would continue to use the full, richer > database served by whois, e.g. to check who is the record maintainer, > what is the last update, and the like. This would require the synthesis of records for every IP address = allocated. Given that multiple contacts can be attached to a network registration, = that could mean multiple records per IP address. (Additionally, the RP = record does not help clarify between a contact with multiple email = addresses and multiple contacts, nor does it account for phone numbers.) So even in IPv4 that synthesis could balloon into a large number of = unmanageable records. Again, special DNS server software would be required. >> I think this problem is best left outside of DNS. >=20 > As John said, we'd better wait for some RIRs to sign up to (possibly) > do this if we want to talk reality. This problem could be applied simply to the RESTful interfaces that are = documented in the drafts that have been circulated on this list. Using the ARIN interface as an example (but not to suggest that it be a = final way), the IP lookups could provide the feature: http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/192.168.0.1/pocs or more specifically for Abuse contacts http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/192.168.0.1/pocs/abuse Does that sounds workable? -andy= From aservin@lacnic.net Fri Sep 16 11:12:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC8521F8801 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.277, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s5pYnHKwACDO for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0E421F87C9 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 85-7-200.lacnic.net.uy (unknown [200.7.85.188]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54995308447; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:14:47 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5E05035C-5624-40CF-864B-D57BD8B6CC73" From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <4E73532E.7080600@tana.it> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:14:48 -0300 Message-Id: <4FB476BD-935A-41D2-995C-58F8E3BA44FF@lacnic.net> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <4E73532E.7080600@tana.it> To: Alessandro Vesely X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:12:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5E05035C-5624-40CF-864B-D57BD8B6CC73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think our efforts (at least as individual RIRs and speaking as = one) are to work in RESTful services rather than DNS. Regarding RESTfull whois I personally see the need for a single = or common interface instead of 5. Whether we will come up with one = solution or five time will tell. .as=20 On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:46, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >>>=20 >>> Simple and easy, isn't it? >>=20 >> 'Simple and easy', particularly in the context of providing common >> interfaces to the outside world, doesn't really appear to be a goal >> of the RIR system. >=20 > I wonder if the NRO is --or should be-- providing any coordination on > this topic. --Apple-Mail=_5E05035C-5624-40CF-864B-D57BD8B6CC73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I think our efforts (at least as = individual RIRs and speaking as one) are to work in RESTful services = rather than DNS.

Regarding RESTfull whois I = personally see the need for a single or common interface instead of 5. = Whether we will come up with one solution or five time will = tell.

.as 

On 16 Sep = 2011, at 10:46, Alessandro Vesely wrote:


Simple and easy, isn't = it?

'Simple and = easy', particularly in the context of providing = common
interfaces to the = outside world, doesn't really appear to be a = goal
of the RIR = system.

I wonder if the NRO is --or should be-- = providing any coordination on
this = topic.

= --Apple-Mail=_5E05035C-5624-40CF-864B-D57BD8B6CC73-- From johnl@iecc.com Fri Sep 16 21:14:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D2421F8B39 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.159 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.159 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WxS6uvH7X1R3 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE6D21F8B35 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 52544 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2011 04:16:35 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2011 04:16:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 33364 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2011 04:16:35 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 17 Sep 2011 04:16:35 -0000 Date: 17 Sep 2011 04:16:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20110917041613.56833.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1D08451E-5165-419B-A7DA-5C89A25CDE9B@hxr.us> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:14:22 -0000 >or more specifically for Abuse contacts > > http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/192.168.0.1/pocs/abuse > >Does that sounds workable? If ARIN were willing to do that, it'd be fine. I doubt that anyone needs to look up abuse contacts as briskly as they consult DNSBLs. R's, John From vesely@tana.it Sat Sep 17 04:08:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B71021F8B0F for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:08:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QvwbeYEst6Ep for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB21421F8B14 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:08:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316257840; bh=TfaCwWIwHJ+V9fYyFBvto2fChGw5SxMMwVdRknrUpkQ=; l=2004; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PekXL0POV6zXpf2/tN51nW3MJiYrEigaHsfmLdI7m6nA9eW4MdU2Ys1BhBxEiHz3Y Pj9hEW/smVAklQcFTlsDafB7GQierVgOI4jX//h+0wJHA/j9Est6ECdMgWo8hinJ76 7lkTHx+QFcTVGhpPQ/LMf/XzZHQ+gyB7f0ufu0qY= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:10:40 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E748030.00004BE9 Message-ID: <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:10:40 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:08:33 -0000 On 16/Sep/11 14:37, Andy Newton wrote: > What does seem unworkable is to ask for a special-use mechanism for > one use case only and to ignore all the other use cases, especially > when that special-use mechanism is unlike all the work that has > been put forth in this space. One aspect where this mechanism differs from other proposals that have been discussed is its simplicity. The moment everybody agrees, we can order any additional hardware right away, gather the software while we wait for it to arrive, and tah dah! However, this proposal is not meant to replace any previous work, and it is not totally unlike it. The most conspicuous similarity being the amount of synergism required. Indeed, as synergy is about /all/ that is required to go, we could regard such DNS way as an acid test to measure whether this global community is able to cooperate. RESTful interfaces are being designed to do some more than retrieving an abuse-poc. However, we don't think that abuse-poc addresses will be heavily looked up, as it may not even be worth to fully automate spam-reporting. This sounds contradictory to me, what am I missing? Both interfaces, RESTful and rDNS, are only useful as long as we want to automate something. I'm so single-minded to assume that what we want to automate is related to the spam problem. Hence, the sooner we launch automated spam-reporting, the sooner we'll know what else exactly do we need to do to cope with that. Right? The single abuse@ address datum needs to be available free of access hindrances. Where policies state that certain occurrences may flag that datum as non-public, looking it up will return "no such domain". Making such a statement would be a relevant leap forward, albeit not a technical change[*], and may allow to proceed more firmly with the REST. -- [*] `dig +short 30.58.22.12.abuse-contacts.abusix.org txt' can already be queried (BTW, that's where I'd expect you'll receive this message from.) From sm@resistor.net Sat Sep 17 10:27:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C37B21F8A58 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jlSrrhXMZup4 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BD421F8A57 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.4/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8HHU5oh023863; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:30:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1316280611; bh=KiF2+YYY8OIUb564f0/hrKod9wI6v8Hs4iJV1dQPrfE=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=KLUE6zZAo+6ppS0WUOJcxa6soLvUL3ScyJo00YJ0tuOrEtF95EpdZ6DzkSR+gYOQ3 yHOp2bHYp2bpPxmkU7LDfy7qlwiDIQ/BR4aVG+PEkFYEUeqtbR5sv6NZ4SUtCTbP/d i2BGg53SwCNVXfOXggWzwMBTDkuPXJbc8WbCNa5U= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1316280611; bh=KiF2+YYY8OIUb564f0/hrKod9wI6v8Hs4iJV1dQPrfE=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=Kn2SXkKbEjDiwRyRyGJ2TkdGVLxPmlr3IbC6MCcSy5D6Darjq7MpZDYJXMlj/i32U CiVerEFhelROj8kZ6Xj4CifPUeambQrplHsMcW4vexuTb0h6IgHqA70HHgB2Ub1NtM 9URLaM55cvv5uJHaPPD/SrgADxdgmuj5m8ZttLbY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:05:11 -0700 To: Alessandro Vesely From: SM In-Reply-To: <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:27:56 -0000 Hi Alessandro, At 04:10 17-09-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >One aspect where this mechanism differs from other proposals that have >been discussed is its simplicity. The moment everybody agrees, we can >order any additional hardware right away, gather the software while we >wait for it to arrive, and tah dah! Your requirement is for abuse contact information. The mechanism you proposed looks simple. draft-kucherawy-weirds-requirements-01 lists other data which people find useful. Your mechanism would not support that. Should the data provider, in this case RIRs, order additional hardware and software for each use case? That seems like a waste of resources to me. There are currently three I-Ds: draft-fiorelli-weirds-rws-00 draft-newton-weirds-arin-whoisrws-00 draft-sheng-weirds-icann-rws-dnrd-00 ARIN has been taking in some flak as some people prefer legacy Whois instead of the REST API. The vendors, in this case, ARIN, ICANN and RIPE, are working on REST mechanisms. You are proposing a mechanism based on DNS. Standardization is also about solving all that by coming up with a common approach. Regards, -sm From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com Sat Sep 17 14:49:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D8C21F85AA for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ul2Nyq0DTWac for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com (mail-yi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D58421F8510 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12so4219655yie.31 for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7CuAyjSZnAYpvRvtb7byMfs4vjwI5ruR06Misln3r6Y=; b=dYGKxrGiZ2TANGVTjJevJaSaVxR1GO0zAaEiBPC3G3pcfOeGZ+8nlQ5hYvh8lTbkMm dH00bfl2jn6WKPD965bywhEL7mlR924d+y2HPEmaFb0WfTbqf0Zb6uYDqFMNXS8pNfiu KXjkNr+XSZWnyY+Fj2bWeEL5r++XM8GvTvkRI= Received: by 10.68.59.228 with SMTP id c4mr1495736pbr.381.1316296296068; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.101.15 with HTTP; Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:50:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 23:50:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: SM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:49:19 -0000 On 17 September 2011 19:05, SM wrote: > ARIN has been taking in some flak as some people prefer legacy > Whois instead of the REST API. =A0The vendors, in this case, ARIN, > ICANN and RIPE, are working on REST mechanisms. =A0You are > proposing a mechanism based on DNS. > Standardization is also about solving all that by coming up with > a common approach. The whois protocol is ideal for simple scripts. As long as it exists I'll use whois.abuse.net for the purposes of my script; the alternative "capture nslookup output" isn't very attractive. In other unrelated scripts sending a HTTP GET is simple enough, but parsing the answer is slightly more convoluted, e.g., if the server insists on HTTP/1.1 chunking instead of HTTP/1.0 replies. That would be my =80 0,01. For the second cent, nothing is wrong with two interfaces (REST + whois) for the same public database; folks implementing clients can pick whatever they like better. -Frank From andy@arin.net Sun Sep 18 07:00:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722BC21F8558 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 07:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zEI6d5wWMdnu for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 07:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8056621F8508 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 07:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 6762F165096; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29276165093; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:02:16 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH01.corp.arin.net ([169.254.1.171]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:02:15 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: John Levine Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvfM4u+1ewOC/EC3uLmry0QbFpVO3yWAgAFpAwCAAD+IgIAAtoCAgAI2DAA= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:02:14 +0000 Message-ID: <5E840400-E9AD-4440-B204-D3A45C5D09DB@arin.net> References: <20110917041613.56833.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110917041613.56833.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.149.252.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:00:06 -0000 On Sep 17, 2011, at 12:16 AM, John Levine wrote: >> or more specifically for Abuse contacts >>=20 >> http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/192.168.0.1/pocs/abuse >>=20 >> Does that sounds workable? >=20 > If ARIN were willing to do that, it'd be fine. I'll see what I can do about addressing this. In the meantime, we need to keep this in mind for a standardized interface. -andy From vesely@tana.it Sun Sep 18 10:20:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F02521F84D2 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:20:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.098, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hlpAIXOioYJ for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9584921F8490 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316366544; bh=kbPr2CQRYV0vkmv4urkJysMhQ1p5it/K33kI7oUBCy8=; l=2190; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=H9zue9zSnKwhVnQvj/uuzzguqVVdTEFpSORB3wWaTPgzMpOH3EhAVDpL+ZkoS8/ed u8fKf69AIrmlIRqs+GSeQJQCbu22RIRTa3x5zwIYQ8bCIeBXaBoRRJhSfD7ngo6gRY Y1knhVja7e6RHxNVJ8BOc2IVnnptAmrFFR4unHaY= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:22:24 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E7628D0.00000B91 Message-ID: <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:22:24 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:20:17 -0000 On 17/Sep/11 19:05, SM wrote: > At 04:10 17-09-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> The moment everybody agrees, we can order any additional hardware >> right away, gather the software while we wait for it to arrive, >> and tah dah! > > Your requirement is for abuse contact information. Yes > The mechanism you proposed looks simple. Indeed, it is. Only the legal aspects of publishing the required datum might result in some head-scratching, but then that has to be done anyway. > draft-kucherawy-weirds-requirements-01 lists other data which > people find useful. Your mechanism would not support that. No, it wouldn't. You should consider this mechanism just an appetizer before the main course. > Should the data provider, in this case RIRs, order additional > hardware and software for each use case? Frankly, I don't know if RIPE, for example, would need an additional disk, cpu, or both. Certainly, each added service bears additional costs. > That seems like a waste of resources to me. You mean the hardware or the software? > There are currently three I-Ds: > > draft-fiorelli-weirds-rws-00 > draft-newton-weirds-arin-whoisrws-00 > draft-sheng-weirds-icann-rws-dnrd-00 Yeah, I had a look at them last spring. I appreciate that work, but it didn't really grip me, so I didn't subscribe at the time. I changed my mind when I realized that part of its functionality is requisite for specifying abuse reporting. > ARIN has been taking in some flak as some people prefer legacy Whois > instead of the REST API. The vendors, in this case, ARIN, ICANN and > RIPE, are working on REST mechanisms. You are proposing a mechanism > based on DNS. Standardization is also about solving all that by > coming up with a common approach. Discussions about XML vs REST, caches, and access rights don't tend to give the impression that implementations are arriving any time soon. Standardization is also solving problems timely, and I don't think it would hurt to provide this single datum in advance. We are already more than a decade late in abuse reporting, if you consider the automation achievements struck by the other side. From vesely@tana.it Sun Sep 18 10:57:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58AA721F86DD for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.623 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.623 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vLY0AWXDJHW for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833F221F84B1 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:57:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316368776; bh=HiN2L8C2NG0iH4YWMDOGFDRw7R6cuGoJ9WEyQOBNVvY=; l=1242; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SZL6WKQcbzock6EpL4NJkU6+qUbr6KUGKcQc6ysV2jPGEyg2/CPcb1QKRQPdTx4S/ 74QYO10O4wJ7XdQVQnK4WNnlXd/bVTXeAi1Vzf1QzqIjuIuOAk+e1BGTIXupUGAchv 7yplTKk8wJC3Z3ja7EcprnyQXLdIYx4/94RMiVy4= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:59:36 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E763188.00003932 Message-ID: <4E763188.7020700@tana.it> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:59:36 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [weirds] Caching scripts, was whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:57:17 -0000 On 17/Sep/11 23:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > The whois protocol is ideal for simple scripts. As long as it > exists I'll use whois.abuse.net for the purposes of my script; > the alternative "capture nslookup output" isn't very attractive. Yet, DNS is the one exemplified at http://www.abuse.net/using.phtml > In other unrelated scripts sending a HTTP GET is simple enough, > but parsing the answer is slightly more convoluted, e.g., if the > server insists on HTTP/1.1 chunking instead of HTTP/1.0 replies. Curl or wget should take care of chunking. HTTP can also provide for some caching, via a local proxy. That's discussed in Andy's draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-newton-weirds-arin-whoisrws-00#section-5 However, if more specific behavior is needed, it wouldn't be a bad idea to provide a command line reference client, e.g. implemented using libcurl. It could also take care of known differences among servers. Moreover, it could take care of locating the right server. BTW, what is the rationale for having ARIN supply the latter info? Given that it is not the alphabetical order, it must be either the physical distance or an historical idiosyncrasy. Isn't it time to have IANA do that? jm2c From johnl@iecc.com Sun Sep 18 11:42:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCE321F84A1 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P58Lm3o9Vba0 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DD321F849A for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9587 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2011 18:44:59 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 2011 18:44:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 37055 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2011 18:44:58 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 18 Sep 2011 18:44:58 -0000 Date: 18 Sep 2011 18:44:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20110918184436.43559.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 18:42:40 -0000 >The whois protocol is ideal for simple scripts. As long as it >exists I'll use whois.abuse.net for the purposes of my script; >the alternative "capture nslookup output" isn't very attractive. That's just lousy tools, which isn't the fault of the protocol. If you had dnstxt from the djbdns package, it'd give you just the contact addresses with no junk to strip off. But for something like contact addresses, I'm less concerned about the details of the protocol than finding something that there is some chance that the RIRs will implement. R's, John From sm@resistor.net Sun Sep 18 12:32:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925D721F84BC for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rkBO4WzdqSax for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58EF21F84BA for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.4/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8IJYU7G027886; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1316374481; bh=05gb4CX4rFIvy0ds3rdXbp9NyHcMfvNq3s8hnDt9bak=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=Jq7iWkAxwrkEBcPYCltE6KlCFdXuUVBfKhMMHAxRCOAEATDnz1jqrFZj1k3SddFpl BnL2alwQXseXl6FqIs7UIsR7me/U9zK2Eukaa2QPBDq+/Eaw+Z/OPWuKA9Lfev6gYE UATN+Mbmf1ZTk/gpz0ApfSI/H9fPyqplqu49ipX0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1316374481; bh=05gb4CX4rFIvy0ds3rdXbp9NyHcMfvNq3s8hnDt9bak=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=Hmg8pfzIMy+OqIxRT3QbwsamNqF08JkYbEanAObqKKSIOns3hsxYIno8LF8fxIHGB NVL5c3sH7AN01y7A+CnszzR8HQpXBM5b2dRDtpuvLpSjYYRNmQYE2qCO4xvB6AQVpI 4lPtVt3Lrtx1JncMW2lhscPJRDLQZER9EzCYr24E= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:30:52 -0700 To: Alessandro Vesely From: SM In-Reply-To: <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:32:24 -0000 Hi Alessandro, At 10:22 18-09-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >You mean the hardware or the software? It also requires people and money. Regards, -sm From msk@cloudmark.com Sun Sep 18 22:58:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EE421F8B14 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 22:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.991 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.991 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVUZ7+MJvLrc for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 22:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31B921F8B11 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 22:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by spite.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.72]) with mapi; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 23:00:47 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 23:00:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx1g/6O7y7sIdBQS+KvAVtwVqRR4gBDTtwA Message-ID: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:58:31 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiB3ZWlyZHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOndlaXJkcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRnJhbmsg RWxsZXJtYW5uDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFNhdHVyZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTcsIDIwMTEgMjo1MSBQTQ0K PiBUbzogU00NCj4gQ2M6IHdlaXJkc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3dlaXJkc10g Rm9yIGEgbmV3IHRhc2s6IHdob2lzIGFidXNlLWNvbnRhY3RzIHZpYSBETlMNCj4gDQo+IFRoZSB3 aG9pcyBwcm90b2NvbCBpcyBpZGVhbCBmb3Igc2ltcGxlIHNjcmlwdHMuICBBcyBsb25nIGFzIGl0 DQo+IGV4aXN0cyBJJ2xsIHVzZSB3aG9pcy5hYnVzZS5uZXQgZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlcyBvZiBt eSBzY3JpcHQ7DQo+IHRoZSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZSAiY2FwdHVyZSBuc2xvb2t1cCBvdXRwdXQiIGlz bid0IHZlcnkgYXR0cmFjdGl2ZS4NCg0KSW50ZXJlc3RpbmcuICBJIGhhdmUgdGhlIG9wcG9zaXRl IHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlOiBETlMgcGF5bG9hZHMgZm9sbG93IGEgc3RhbmRhcmQgZm9ybWF0IHdoZXJl IFdIT0lTIHBheWxvYWRzIGRvIG5vdC4gIFRodXMsIEknZCByYXRoZXIgY29kZSB0byB0aGUgZm9y bWVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIGxhdHRlciwgZXZlbiBpZiBJIGNhbiByZWx5IG9uIHdob2lzLmFidXNlLm5l dCB0byBnaXZlIG1lIHNvbWV0aGluZyBpbiBhIGZvcm1hdCBJJ2QgZXhwZWN0LiAgSXQncyBub3Qg YW4gaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJsZSBzb2x1dGlvbiwgYmVjYXVzZSBJIGNhbid0IHBvaW50IHRoYXQgY2xp ZW50IGF0IGFub3RoZXIgV0hPSVMgc2VydmVyIGFuZCBiZSBzdXJlIHRvIGdldCB0aGUgc2FtZSBz ZXJ2aWNlLg0KIA0KPiBUaGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIG15IOKCrCAwLDAxLiAgRm9yIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQg Y2VudCwgbm90aGluZyBpcyB3cm9uZw0KPiB3aXRoIHR3byBpbnRlcmZhY2VzIChSRVNUICsgd2hv aXMpIGZvciB0aGUgc2FtZSBwdWJsaWMgZGF0YWJhc2U7DQo+IGZvbGtzIGltcGxlbWVudGluZyBj bGllbnRzIGNhbiBwaWNrIHdoYXRldmVyIHRoZXkgbGlrZSBiZXR0ZXIuDQoNCkV4Y2VwdCwgb2Yg Y291cnNlLCBvbmdvaW5nIGNvc3RzIHRvIHRoZSBzZXJ2aWNlIHByb3ZpZGVyIG9mIGtlZXBpbmcg Ym90aCB1cC4NCg== From vesely@tana.it Mon Sep 19 01:54:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC88221F8AED for ; 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Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:56:37 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E7703C5.000072CF Message-ID: <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:56:38 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:54:19 -0000 On 18/Sep/11 21:30, SM wrote: > At 10:22 18-09-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> You mean the hardware or the software? > > It also requires people and money. So does running a WG. Assume an acid test provides the ability to determine the effectiveness of a WG --I mean the practicality of its specs-- at the price of a couple of disks and a few days programming. How would you rate such possibility? From michele@blacknight.ie Mon Sep 19 01:59:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8906321F8B1F for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 01:59:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.459 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.459 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.874, BAYES_40=-0.185, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UizRX9smhXr3 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 01:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.blacknight.ie (exchange.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE321F8B7D for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 01:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkexchmbx02.blacknight.local ([fe80::d4d7:819a:4fb5:c923]) by bkexchhubcas01.blacknight.local ([fe80::3ca9:6bf1:bd5d:24b%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:01:40 +0100 From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" To: Alessandro Vesely Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvgAWnY9rM9ep0O4QbA+RRJVZpVOi1OAgABddACAAPtkAIABef8AgABjDYCAAZckAIAAI+UAgADhIQCAAAFngA== Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:01:40 +0000 Message-ID: <11183C0E-9962-4E29-8BCE-AA94348AFECD@blacknight.ie> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-IE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2a01:a8:ff01:0:cabc:c8ff:fea6:ee0b] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:59:20 -0000 DQpPbiAxOSBTZXAgMjAxMSwgYXQgMDk6NTYsIEFsZXNzYW5kcm8gVmVzZWx5IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+ IE9uIDE4L1NlcC8xMSAyMTozMCwgU00gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiBBdCAxMDoyMiAxOC0wOS0yMDExLCBB bGVzc2FuZHJvIFZlc2VseSB3cm90ZToNCj4+PiBZb3UgbWVhbiB0aGUgaGFyZHdhcmUgb3IgdGhl IHNvZnR3YXJlPw0KPj4gDQo+PiBJdCBhbHNvIHJlcXVpcmVzIHBlb3BsZSBhbmQgbW9uZXkuDQo+ IA0KPiBTbyBkb2VzIHJ1bm5pbmcgYSBXRy4gIA0KDQpUaGV5J3JlIG5vdCB0aGUgc2FtZSBjb3N0 cyBhbmQgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBleHBlY3RhdGlvbnMNCg0KDQoNCk1yIE1pY2hlbGUg TmV5bG9uDQpCbGFja25pZ2h0IFNvbHV0aW9ucyDimZ4NCkhvc3RpbmcgJiBDb2xvY2F0aW9uLCBC cmFuZCBQcm90ZWN0aW9uDQpJQ0FOTiBBY2NyZWRpdGVkIFJlZ2lzdHJhcg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5i bGFja25pZ2h0LmNvbS8NCmh0dHA6Ly9ibG9nLmJsYWNrbmlnaHQuY29tLw0KaHR0cDovL2JsYWNr bmlnaHQuYml6DQpodHRwOi8vbW5leWxvbi50ZWwNCkludGwuICszNTMgKDApIDU5ICA5MTgzMDcy DQpVUzogMjEzLTIzMy0xNjEyIA0KVUs6IDA4NDQgNDg0IDkzNjENCkxvY2FsbDogMTg1MCA5Mjkg OTI5DQpEaXJlY3QgRGlhbDogKzM1MyAoMCk1OSA5MTgzMDkwDQpGYWNlYm9vazogaHR0cDovL2Zi Lm1lL2JsYWNrbmlnaHQNClR3aXR0ZXI6IGh0dHA6Ly90d2l0dGVyLmNvbS9tbmV5bG9uDQotLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQpCbGFja25pZ2h0IEludGVybmV0IFNvbHV0aW9u cyBMdGQsIFVuaXQgMTJBLEJhcnJvd3NpZGUgQnVzaW5lc3MgUGFyayxTbGVhdHkNClJvYWQsR3Jh aWd1ZWN1bGxlbixDYXJsb3csSXJlbGFuZCAgQ29tcGFueSBOby46IDM3MDg0NQ0KDQo= From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com Mon Sep 19 05:22:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236EB21F8BBC for ; 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Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:24:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.101.15 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:23:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:23:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:22:14 -0000 On 19 September 2011 08:00, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> The whois protocol is ideal for simple scripts. =A0As long as it >> exists I'll use whois.abuse.net for the purposes of my script; >> the alternative "capture nslookup output" isn't very attractive. > Interesting. =A0I have the opposite perspective: DNS payloads follow > a standard format where WHOIS payloads do not. =A0Thus, I'd rather > code to the former than the latter, even if I can rely on > whois.abuse.net to give me something in a format I'd expect. Yes, using DNS would be nice in scripting languages supporting it. That is not directly the case for REXX. In theory I could create an "extension" (=3D DLL) based on exisisting work, but then I'd end up with a "works for me on NT" solution not working for others using REXX on various Linux and IBM (incl. OS/2) platforms. For folks not knowing it: REXX is in the (former) IBM-community roughly what perl/awk is in *NIX communities, or what VB/PS is in the NT community -- maybe, I never tried the new PS =3D powershell". I could also try to parse DNS on a binary sockets level directly in REXX, but when I seriously considered this years ago I found that it would be an interesting but not a "simple" job. BTW, the same script has no trouble to parse DNSBL answers, all the hard work is hidden in its "get IP" socket interface. (No IPv6 yet, but I'm confident that somebody will tackle it sooner or later. IPv6 and DNSBLs is anyway more on the research side of RFC 5782 and I-D.irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists.) >> nothing is wrong with two interfaces (REST + whois) for the >> same public database; folks implementing clients can pick >> whatever they like better. > Except, of course, ongoing costs to the service provider of > keeping both up. "Whois" is also relatively simple on the server side. As long it ends up on the MUST-side I have yet no preferences what else goes into additional SHOULDs. It would be also fine if the RIRs and IANA offer 5+1 whois servers based on a "smarter" interface, where "smarter" means "does not work for all plausible clients". -Frank From sm@resistor.net Tue Sep 20 01:38:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B5121F8B76 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:38:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HueXh1PinHFK for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7F921F84A8 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.4/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8K8eBNw004278; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:40:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1316508019; bh=LDoOxsPM6lqAS7JabJaOGb3a31bOxI7bWsSSwIi6SUU=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=MrgYmjZ6hetUuY/AN37SRfVTHiqiUm5i0htXNyl0NQURjX+3wssELnJIZ90tJVYXB QOjJbjSFL7Q3wGxuvjShaBMENwMWuLlgXxC9y1LSOjRSW2tqk5KxvDUJbERcD18I1t qfEIWUrSC0o2jZPoRHrrK5wTHNJ8fPqky1NJ/ZFg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1316508019; bh=LDoOxsPM6lqAS7JabJaOGb3a31bOxI7bWsSSwIi6SUU=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=OfU1Mtjd4gZ0U6ozA0BjcSIaxlXTgyk7TxGfy/IOogMk1Xdq8b5BT9QtqYX9l0Nb0 6f+405osXFdGVEw1UvqXzveDz9E8mz/BIExdZexxm2Xw6bVEoQo9YVaYhlAgniwrgr 5j5NUO/qS54+vaGlAEfPk93tNMixJRO+puYvLXTk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20110920001413.08a99be8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:32:13 -0700 To: Alessandro Vesely From: SM In-Reply-To: <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:38:05 -0000 Hi Alessandro, At 01:56 19-09-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >So does running a WG. Assume an acid test provides the ability to >determine the effectiveness of a WG --I mean the practicality of its >specs-- at the price of a couple of disks and a few days programming. > How would you rate such possibility? I'll pick zero. WG effectiveness depends on whether everyone derives a benefit from the work. At the moment, the benefit is one sided. Regards, -sm From vesely@tana.it Tue Sep 20 04:33:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38ED921F8B67 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 04:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3uioZewjtxz3 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9061921F8C36 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316518564; bh=2S1LzrqxC0eIuRwtRPErSIaa2Q6NzWXfqGH4zxxllD8=; l=1186; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fbHjHVES4CQ5E0jW0j3+UaIXPonjPjjtV4veaOCNv+7PgGksWPuar/blXv2kFQ/Mh LvH/0Ws8HmVbDM1NQspszxOtIjU4iOXW6qiWzcffp2wy7t24nb94OsgTsOWPTHcpry P10NphGHrept9XhwbNkmSr+MTph0YeFpFjDQ8TrQ= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:36:04 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E787AA4.000072C9 Message-ID: <4E787AA4.5020609@tana.it> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:36:04 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> <11183C0E-9962-4E29-8BCE-AA94348AFECD@blacknight.ie> In-Reply-To: <11183C0E-9962-4E29-8BCE-AA94348AFECD@blacknight.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:33:41 -0000 On 19/Sep/11 11:01, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote: > On 19 Sep 2011, at 09:56, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> On 18/Sep/11 21:30, SM wrote: >>> >>> It also requires people and money. >> >> So does running a WG. > > They're not the same costs and don't have the same expectations A WG consumes a number of man-hours of highly qualified participants, so I'd guess it costs a lot, while running a DNS server is quite cheap. As for the expectations, I have no (other) ideas on how to evaluate the risk that a WG could pause or gradually diminish the amount and fervor of discussions, and eventually just fade away, leaving unfinished documents to oblivion. Indeed, this mailing list was silent for about one month after it had been surmised that the semantic content of the data is none of IETF's business. I plead for the opposite position, that an abuse-contact email address shall correspond to the mailbox of an abuse team. We can also crisply specify what domain names are allowed to appear in the domain-part of the addresses, what confirmations may be carried out by the maintainer of the datum, and what periodic checks may be carried out by the RIR. From msk@cloudmark.com Tue Sep 20 11:15:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2D91F0C4F for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.385, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8FENPceXYdw for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117A01F0C3D for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by spite.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.72]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:17:50 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Alessandro Vesely , "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:17:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx3iYFGFqFDXB1VTBaaKHx4VFqs2QANsJaw Message-ID: References: <4E70D029.2080009@tana.it> <8EBBD829-E831-49F2-AE4E-394B0D240870@arin.net> <4E748030.2080305@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110917085254.0ab27088@resistor.net> <4E7628D0.9000801@tana.it> <6.2.5.6.2.20110918105121.0ace5f10@resistor.net> <4E7703C6.4070005@tana.it> <11183C0E-9962-4E29-8BCE-AA94348AFECD@blacknight.ie> <4E787AA4.5020609@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E787AA4.5020609@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:25 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: weirds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Alessandro Vesely > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:36 AM > To: weirds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS >=20 > Indeed, this mailing list was silent for about one month after it had > been surmised that the semantic content of the data is none of IETF's > business. I plead for the opposite position, that an abuse-contact > email address shall correspond to the mailbox of an abuse team. We > can also crisply specify what domain names are allowed to appear in > the domain-part of the addresses, what confirmations may be carried > out by the maintainer of the datum, and what periodic checks may be > carried out by the RIR. The IETF can specify whatever it wants, but there exists no stick that will= compel RIRs or anyone to adhere. It only costs them {money, person-hours}= to provide the service to spec, or indeed provide it at all; they get noth= ing out of it and it doesn't interfere with their ability to operate. This= , in addition to constraining itself from layers eight and nine, is why the= IETF likes to stick to protocol rather than stipulating policy: We have no= enforcement power. And at least in my view, ICANN has a very weak track r= ecord of being tough on anyone about anything, so they're unlikely to do so= either. The only stick I can think of is the idea that security service companies l= ike anti-{spam, virus, phishing} vendors will default to not trusting domai= ns or networks about which complete WHOIS data is available, and apparently= correct. That will lead to reputation about WHOIS providers (see also the= REPUTE WG). This might compel compliance even in the absence of policy fr= om ICANN. From johnl@iecc.com Tue Sep 20 12:07:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909811F0C3B for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pTIpzfaRqxnL for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB531F0C36 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8529 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 19:09:37 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2011 19:09:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 75683 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 19:09:37 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 20 Sep 2011 19:09:37 -0000 Date: 20 Sep 2011 19:09:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:07:13 -0000 > At least in my view, ICANN has a very weak track record of being >tough on anyone about anything, so they're unlikely to do so either. ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's widely used. But they have no say at all over the RIRs, so I agree with you that this whole argument is basically pointless. R's, John From michele@blacknight.ie Tue Sep 20 12:16:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E5F21F8C6E for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:16:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.852, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DRYlBCthA2rq for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.blacknight.ie (exchange.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3A521F8C6A for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkexchmbx02.blacknight.local ([fe80::d4d7:819a:4fb5:c923]) by bkexchhubcas01.blacknight.local ([fe80::3ca9:6bf1:bd5d:24b%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:19:01 +0100 From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" To: John Levine Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvgAWnY9rM9ep0O4QbA+RRJVZpVOi1OAgABddACAAPtkAIABef8AgABjDYCAAZckAIAAI+UAgADhIQCAAAFngIABvXkAgABwPwCAAA5ggIAAE371 Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:19:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-IE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:16:37 -0000 It only applies to thick registries. There is no standard format for thin -= and thin constitutes the lions share of gtlds Mr. Michele Neylon Blacknight http://Blacknight.tel Via iPhone so excuse typos and brevity On 20 Sep 2011, at 21:10, "John Levine" wrote: >> At least in my view, ICANN has a very weak track record of being >> tough on anyone about anything, so they're unlikely to do so either. >=20 > ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's > widely used. But they have no say at all over the RIRs, so I agree > with you that this whole argument is basically pointless. >=20 > R's, > John > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From johnl@iecc.com Tue Sep 20 12:21:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16101F0C43 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.525 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.525 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vas3-9QBxEfr for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0CE1F0C3B for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9321 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 19:23:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=2468.4e78e841.k1109; bh=O4QgKyvgv/3zRUp3zpqtopDLHIwGF27309pRSllQSko=; b=bAlEpkiPzaIlv95q1EJdIilQp1fYFh/BmdhLb0fU4OW5q4qxrkPUl2M7P+lCdANt5RyJ9gEsyzvP/82OgYMVzVMjcPnThde4VFMsYDuwSCJcyqxIWQSx7DmnBHOYLabDE8VRAsJBlwdGuSnShWQF4ffKy5qXFENFSA6ppeRQf6Q= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 20 Sep 2011 19:23:23 -0000 Date: 20 Sep 2011 15:23:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" In-Reply-To: References: , <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:21:21 -0000 > It only applies to thick registries. There is no standard format for thin - and thin constitutes the lions share of gtlds You're right, but I gather that Verisign is supposed to transition to thick at some point. R's, John From msk@cloudmark.com Tue Sep 20 12:21:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E4E1F0C43 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.982 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.982 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.383, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4uXQ+Apqu8R for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C491F0C3B for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by spite.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.72]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:24:10 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:24:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx3yNkNCsUbkzbRRg2ZdxkVvnf+SwAAfI5Q Message-ID: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:21:44 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBKb2huIExldmluZSBbbWFpbHRv OmpvaG5sQGllY2MuY29tXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjAsIDIwMTEgMTI6 MDkgUE0NCj4gVG86IHdlaXJkc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDYzogTXVycmF5IFMuIEt1Y2hlcmF3eQ0K PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW3dlaXJkc10gRm9yIGEgbmV3IHRhc2s6IHdob2lzIGFidXNlLWNvbnRh Y3RzIHZpYSBETlMNCj4gDQo+ID5BdCBsZWFzdCBpbiBteSB2aWV3LCBJQ0FOTiBoYXMgYSB2ZXJ5 IHdlYWsgdHJhY2sgcmVjb3JkIG9mIGJlaW5nDQo+ID50b3VnaCBvbiBhbnlvbmUgYWJvdXQgYW55 dGhpbmcsIHNvIHRoZXkncmUgdW5saWtlbHkgdG8gZG8gc28gZWl0aGVyLg0KPiANCj4gSUNBTk4g YWN0dWFsbHkgaGFzIGEgY29tbW9uIFdIT0lTIGZvcm1hdCBmb3IgZG9tYWluIHJlZ2lzdHJpZXMg dGhhdCdzDQo+IHdpZGVseSB1c2VkLiAgQnV0IHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBubyBzYXkgYXQgYWxsIG92ZXIg dGhlIFJJUnMsIHNvIEkgYWdyZWUNCj4gd2l0aCB5b3UgdGhhdCB0aGlzIHdob2xlIGFyZ3VtZW50 IGlzIGJhc2ljYWxseSBwb2ludGxlc3MuDQoNCkFyZSB0aGVyZSBwZW5hbHRpZXMgZm9yIGRvbWFp biByZWdpc3RyYXJzIG5vdCBzdGlja2luZyB0byB0aGUgY29tbW9uIGZvcm1hdD8NCg0KV2hhdCBh cmUgdGhlIGNoYW5jZXMgb2YgdGhlbSBnZXR0aW5nIHRvdWdoZXIgb24gdGhlIFJJUnM/DQoNCg== From steve.sheng@icann.org Tue Sep 20 12:23:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB191F0C4A for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BF+VFOcfkixH for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org (expfe100-2.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA631F0C49 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.237]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25:53 -0700 From: Steve Sheng To: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25:50 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx3yOb5ZuDQCl76S0KUcdZUykkDNQAAjPqD Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.9.0.110114 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:23:28 -0000 Hi John, I would like to qualify your points a bit. I think all of these points Jay Daley and Michele has already raised. Regarding data formats: =20 - For existing gTLD registries, ICANN specifies the format in registry agreements somewhat (see appendix 5 of various registry agreements http://www.icann.org/en/registries/agreements.htm). - For existing gTLD registrars, ICANN only specify the data elements (see RAA 3.3.1, http://www.icann.org/en/registrars/ra-agreement-17may01.htm#3), how those date elements are represented and displayed is up to each registrar to decide. - For ccTLD registries, each ccTLD operator sets its own policy regarding what to display and how to display them in WHOIS. - For new gTLDs, ICANN require thick registry as well as a common data format. Kind regards,=20 Steve=20 On 9/20/11 12:09 PM, "John Levine" wrote: >> At least in my view, ICANN has a very weak track record of being >> tough on anyone about anything, so they're unlikely to do so either. >=20 > ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's > widely used. But they have no say at all over the RIRs, so I agree > with you that this whole argument is basically pointless. >=20 > R's, > John > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From michele@blacknight.ie Tue Sep 20 12:25:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29751F0C57 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.681, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbcgFHq+ZMqz for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.blacknight.ie (exchange.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1411F0C44 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bkexchmbx02.blacknight.local ([fe80::d4d7:819a:4fb5:c923]) by bkexchhubcas01.blacknight.local ([fe80::3ca9:6bf1:bd5d:24b%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:27:32 +0100 From: "Michele Neylon :: Blacknight" To: "John R. Levine" Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: AQHMcvgAWnY9rM9ep0O4QbA+RRJVZpVOi1OAgABddACAAPtkAIABef8AgABjDYCAAZckAIAAI+UAgADhIQCAAAFngIABvXkAgABwPwCAAA5ggIAAE371///wjgCAABHS5w== Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:27:31 +0000 Message-ID: <08CE27DF-220C-49EB-B6ED-2DE043BDE823@blacknight.ie> References: , <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-IE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:25:07 -0000 John While that might happen they've denied it when asked=20 M Mr. Michele Neylon Blacknight http://Blacknight.tel Via iPhone so excuse typos and brevity On 20 Sep 2011, at 21:24, "John R. Levine" wrote: >> It only applies to thick registries. There is no standard format for thi= n - and thin constitutes the lions share of gtlds >=20 > You're right, but I gather that Verisign is supposed to transition to thi= ck at some point. >=20 > R's, > John From johnl@iecc.com Tue Sep 20 12:29:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284CC1F0C7B for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xdJMIZoaG4e9 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CBC1F0C75 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9506 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 19:31:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=2521.4e78ea13.k1109; bh=ovsMs8ugV35H5342DZw0HGeqxbL835sXm5km60zvIkA=; b=XdDdaZHjl11r0GkezHipfg0BpezMPioKnqZ/4p9BAw4SSZRnaeNa04Za6WGJKQtWgKWcooW6sEZlGKII5nHihdvrVBaUGcChnt4OhHbIh1W+wDbkB33MYR7K/pJnNhVPz4f2lPFuSMQcVPsmDekN+7KcuTOsgwc+xQx9RGCmDn4= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 20 Sep 2011 19:31:09 -0000 Date: 20 Sep 2011 15:31:31 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:29:10 -0000 >> ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's >> widely used. But they have no say at all over the RIRs, so I agree >> with you that this whole argument is basically pointless. > > Are there penalties for domain registrars not sticking to the common format? Just the standard sanctions for RRA violations, but the thick registries all implement the WHOIS format perfectly well so it's never been an issue. There's the usual problem that registrants lie, but that's separate from the WHOIS format. > What are the chances of them getting tougher on the RIRs? Zero. ICANN has no authority over the RIRs. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl Tue Sep 20 12:32:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71EAF11E80C1 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.856, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_48=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vsl-Ixdmsr5m for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F90011E80B3 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8KJYNBa043293; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:34:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: "John Levine" In-reply-to: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> Comments: In-reply-to "John Levine" message dated "20 Sep 2011 19:09:15 -0000." Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:34:23 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:34:23 +0200 (CEST) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:32:16 -0000 > At least in my view, ICANN has a very weak track record of being >tough on anyone about anything, so they're unlikely to do so either. ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's widely used. Not really. There are some common used formats but they differ wildy by registry (operator), see below the whois output for example.net and example.org. To have a common WHOIS format is a desire in ICANN circles. jaap ========================== whois example.net: Whois Server Version 2.0 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. Domain Name: EXAMPLE.NET Registrar: RESERVED-INTERNET ASSIGNED NUMBERS AUTHORITY Whois Server: whois.iana.org Referral URL: http://res-dom.iana.org Name Server: A.IANA-SERVERS.NET Name Server: B.IANA-SERVERS.NET Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 31-aug-2011 Creation Date: 31-aug-1995 Expiration Date: 30-aug-2012 >>> Last update of whois database: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:26:53 UTC <<< NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration in the registry is currently set to expire. This date does not necessarily reflect the expiration date of the domain name registrant's agreement with the sponsoring registrar. Users may consult the sponsoring registrar's Whois database to view the registrar's reported date of expiration for this registration. TERMS OF USE: You are not authorized to access or query our Whois database through the use of electronic processes that are high-volume and automated except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations; the Data in VeriSign Global Registry Services' ("VeriSign") Whois database is provided by VeriSign for information purposes only, and to assist persons in obtaining information about or related to a domain name registration record. VeriSign does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a Whois query, you agree to abide by the following terms of use: You agree that you may use this Data only for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data to: (1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone, or facsimile; or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that apply to VeriSign (or its computer systems). The compilation, repackaging, dissemination or other use of this Data is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of VeriSign. You agree not to use electronic processes that are automated and high-volume to access or query the Whois database except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. VeriSign reserves the right to restrict your access to the Whois database in its sole discretion to ensure operational stability. VeriSign may restrict or terminate your access to the Whois database for failure to abide by these terms of use. VeriSign reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and Registrars. % IANA WHOIS server % for more information on IANA, visit http://www.iana.org % This query returned 1 object domain: EXAMPLE.NET organisation: Internet Assigned Numbers Authority created: 1992-01-01 source: IANA ========================== whois example.org NOTICE: Access to .ORG WHOIS information is provided to assist persons in determining the contents of a domain name registration record in the Public Interest Registry registry database. The data in this record is provided by Public Interest Registry for informational purposes only, and Public Interest Registry does not guarantee its accuracy. This service is intended only for query-based access. You agree that you will use this data only for lawful purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this data to: (a) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission by e-mail, telephone, or facsimile of mass unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations to entities other than the data recipient's own existing customers; or (b) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that send queries or data to the systems of Registry Operator or any ICANN-Accredited Registrar, except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. All rights reserved. Public Interest Registry reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy. Domain ID:D2328855-LROR Domain Name:EXAMPLE.ORG Created On:31-Aug-1995 04:00:00 UTC Last Updated On:27-Jul-2010 20:57:51 UTC Expiration Date:30-Aug-2010 04:00:00 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (R193-LROR) Status:DELETE PROHIBITED Status:RENEW PROHIBITED Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED Status:UPDATE PROHIBITED Registrant ID:IANA Registrant Name:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority Registrant Organization:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) Registrant Street1:4676 Admiralty Way Registrant Street2:Suite 330 Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Marina del Rey Registrant State/Province:CA Registrant Postal Code:92092 Registrant Country:US Registrant Phone:+1.3108239358 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX:+1.3108238649 Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:res-dom@iana.org Admin ID:IANA Admin Name:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority Admin Organization:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) Admin Street1:4676 Admiralty Way Admin Street2:Suite 330 Admin Street3: Admin City:Marina del Rey Admin State/Province:CA Admin Postal Code:92092 Admin Country:US Admin Phone:+1.3108239358 Admin Phone Ext.: Admin FAX:+1.3108238649 Admin FAX Ext.: Admin Email:res-dom@iana.org Tech ID:IANA Tech Name:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority Tech Organization:Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) Tech Street1:4676 Admiralty Way Tech Street2:Suite 330 Tech Street3: Tech City:Marina del Rey Tech State/Province:CA Tech Postal Code:92092 Tech Country:US Tech Phone:+1.3108239358 Tech Phone Ext.: Tech FAX:+1.3108238649 Tech FAX Ext.: Tech Email:res-dom@iana.org Name Server:A.IANA-SERVERS.NET Name Server:B.IANA-SERVERS.NET Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: Name Server: DNSSEC:Signed DS Created 1:27-Jul-2010 20:57:22 UTC DS Maximum Signature Life 1:3456000 seconds DS Key Tag 1:31589 Algorithm 1:8 Digest Type 1:1 Digest 1:7b8370002875dda781390a8e586c31493847d9bc DS Created 2:27-Jul-2010 20:57:36 UTC DS Maximum Signature Life 2:3456000 seconds DS Key Tag 2:31589 Algorithm 2:8 Digest Type 2:2 Digest 2:3fdc4c11fa3ad3535ea8c1ce3eaf7bfa5ca9ae8a834d98fee10085cfaeb625aa From msk@cloudmark.com Tue Sep 20 12:44:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249CD1F0C3D for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0yQqdPnCB9xt for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C909221F8C80 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by malice.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.71]) with mapi; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:47:03 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "John R. Levine" Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:47:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx3y+fdRqw2HAghQpuwqTjZQwzI8QAAiMxA Message-ID: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:44:37 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Levine [mailto:johnl@iecc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:32 PM > To: Murray S. Kucherawy > Cc: weirds@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS >=20 > > What are the chances of them getting tougher on the RIRs? >=20 > Zero. ICANN has no authority over the RIRs. Who does? From sm@resistor.net Tue Sep 20 14:09:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26C321F84AA for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYsJ2pjeV94v for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022E921F84A9 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.4/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8KLBR0K013587; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:11:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1316553093; bh=nxOQwqBMa3kJfnVopWt7EOXKWrnmw1ecPMF5O+tQVmI=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=rEwRKUPK+Ld/wjF4xcM5IJHlc0DhQ3CeBqwi+7ks0fncashA+fR7bgpiPgSuy+I91 J+2s9zJAMB6+O4GS0Yy72qTIRdAb0E8Q42YBEdpYy6GH4zD1UDeFm6mequ71Ws4v/9 eaM4gr+Uth3aAMAt+T/WMpxj5PExXcfOntSUv2RI= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1316553093; bh=nxOQwqBMa3kJfnVopWt7EOXKWrnmw1ecPMF5O+tQVmI=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=N0Ogm8if5oBcdz09AtXm9MWjlj8J9BwVWCdjvq7kXpAwtKySw/ccufmGXRukjM13L GEYZSsq14HwbcpYpmApHfWB5qG7feGwI9DKH9ll2iOxk+1Hjwjp8gJ53fiBzxXfPGY U1+70rXSOoU+WYvcydTwep3Sw0Ovp+SWWfxOPSjw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20110920134514.0a3942d8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:10:36 -0700 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:09:10 -0000 Hi Murray, At 12:47 20-09-2011, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >Who does? The short answer is nobody. :-) You could get this done through the respective RIR communities if you think that it is worth the effort. Regards, -sm P.S. I am from Missouri From johnl@iecc.com Tue Sep 20 15:33:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B757411E8080 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.533 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.533 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n4ZC7W7O1MXP for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875CD11E8095 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16487 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 22:35:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=4066.4e791537.k1109; bh=7mxtiw9TanuqLbSSeKJXVJkRQlb7TGhO7lPEq0bu80k=; b=h1aeYwcK9fOFl7BSr21n5nBwj9BvoEW+RSjXdSfG1EhVjpclLgG6TNOlbRqyDsj0MrQABQfnuecjLKX9XfGqoGuDU9PrRtzfFoFkUuj8DyZQ88kcryPCV6ODEa+6wMKMSFMKmixBynHV/cxd/E9ebS0pgJHXEBWOwpHqM34U238= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 20 Sep 2011 22:35:13 -0000 Date: 20 Sep 2011 18:35:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Jaap Akkerhuis" In-Reply-To: <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:33:10 -0000 > ICANN actually has a common WHOIS format for domain registries that's > widely used. > > Not really. There are some common used formats but they differ > wildy by registry (operator), see below the whois output for > example.net and example.org. The old thin registries for .COM and .NET are different for each registrar. All the other registries have a thick WHOIS, and they're all the same. I realize that there's more names in .COM than anywhere else and, really, I understand how painful it is to parse. I have a 2600 line perl module that gets maybe 80% of them. R's, John From johnl@iecc.com Tue Sep 20 15:34:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC121F0C80 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:34:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87Dd36gAuxzd for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198351F0C75 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16534 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2011 22:36:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=4095.4e79157c.k1109; bh=9G4u9RUD/9UbcZB0ZqQ+wu0bipSgR5FirDJTaBmIkY4=; b=Z5oe27GrDO4q0W+mkohO53Px5Q6gyDZ8JM3lzXIyTA2gtcy91kLybs7rg8ZnCS7oCbDbHpB9yfs3QBVdc3eFQpO4ACUgjPEvFJkA3C49Ce2B2wapQyPMPIAHnphfUAH0gA652JzJT5EFf9UmjIPc6ruyFBD2CfU2gMZOZnPTVh0= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 20 Sep 2011 22:36:22 -0000 Date: 20 Sep 2011 18:36:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:34:18 -0000 >> Zero. ICANN has no authority over the RIRs. > > Who does? Their members. I suppose in theory the various governments, although I don't know of any that have engaged with them much. The RIRs are not totally evil. Within the past year or so several have tightened the rules about abuse contacts. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From tk@abusix.org Wed Sep 21 01:24:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEBC21F8C1D for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZKudTSsiYtI for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787C921F84DB for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vws11 with SMTP id 11so3138581vws.27 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:26:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abusix.org; s=google; h=sender:message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type; bh=ZKafVh7Tre8DXYnyAF2EG1Had/F1QviHwQuWatp94/k=; b=iwqP+TA+Pag61LJUGjW1qbZvQRFxZOdlj8HMAGPz19E6+LRiVrfUfKsx1BmEOEvsvc gXUQgv5kpMSDiul7baug1E43IXKGUjYJ3O0C88Ylr6c+86RjWWDCsEVr96/Uvo7GSCMq 0W3sYFbDnJ9f2ZtwcHg2fI6CA5CtQseqwuPwo= Received: by 10.52.66.200 with SMTP id h8mr284485vdt.169.1316593610789; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macmini.local ([216.166.10.204]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i1sm3294009vdj.6.2011.09.21.01.26.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tobias Knecht Message-ID: <4E799FC2.6070006@abusix.com> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:26:42 +0200 From: Tobias Knecht Organization: abusix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCA004F1BA355DBA49FDD2456" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: tk@abusix.com List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:24:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCA004F1BA355DBA49FDD2456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, > The RIRs are not totally evil. Within the past year or so several have= > tightened the rules about abuse contacts. Right. APNIC introduced a mandatory IRT Object in November 2010. AfriNIC decided to have an so far not-mandatory abuse-c and is working on that at the moment. RIPE is having a Task-Force and will come up with a proposal until end of October for RIPE 63. ARIN decided to make an abuse contact mandatory in future. All these changes are initiated by policy proposals. Everybody is allowed to bring in such proposals, discuss it with the community and try to get consensus. Thanks, Tobias (wearing my RIPE Anti Abuse Co-Chair hat) --------------enigCA004F1BA355DBA49FDD2456 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk55n8cACgkQX1iWbSWuwmzfuQCeIxjK8fL8SMPD0YTJ2CVAiJ/7 zu8An1Swcl7K2CEEa+Jo1LsmE6EZJXgF =Vic9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCA004F1BA355DBA49FDD2456-- From jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl Wed Sep 21 02:06:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC9D21F8C88 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DlqiP4Wpz+Xa for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E7221F8C82 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8L98RSY033783; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:08:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <201109210908.p8L98RSY033783@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: weirds@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Comments: In-reply-to "John R. Levine" message dated "20 Sep 2011 18:35:34 -0400." Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:08:27 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:08:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:06:05 -0000 (johnl) The old thin registries for .COM and .NET are different for each registrar. All the other registries have a thick WHOIS, and they're all the same. If you limit yourself to gTLD registers. With ccTLDs, the mess gets bigger (in case there is a whois service available--sometimes there isn't at all, sometimes it is only via a web form--some have non-ascii answers thrown in for code measures etc. etc). (johnl) I realize that there's more names in .COM than anywhere else and, really, I understand how painful it is to parse. I have a 2600 line perl module that gets maybe 80% of them. Before I get back into lurking mode let me make one observation: Most time when I hear people talking about "the whois problem" they often mean gTLD registries and if you listen closely, they often really mean only the .COM registry. If they mean address registries most times they are mentioned separately. Anyway, this discussion shows to me that there is a real need for decent structured information from a "whois type of service" and that a quick fix using DNS (which started this discussion) is not going to fly. jaap From andy@arin.net Wed Sep 21 08:23:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733CE21F8B8E for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R-qjGEtqRyTT for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817DD21F8B8B for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id F15F516513B; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1319164FE9 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:47 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:58 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: "weirds@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alxw== Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:25:57 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <91E33C4788A39A4DADA52BF34CF4A4AD@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:23:54 -0000 Arturo, Kaveh and I have put together a new draft for a common RIR URL sche= me: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00.txt Comments welcomed. -andy= From shopik@inblock.ru Wed Sep 21 09:45:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FD211E80B0 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfoDlwOMbnhV for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE6A11E80EC for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id E062E2940CA; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:47:28 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316623648; bh=vZzV8TLD40C8xxYTGpIoQrb+Zy1sSEctYRsx7bwZTkk=; b=dswCUvjkho6x APgsBET/vEeKit84Qi2lv4Z/TuZ9wVedTNOveu/BD/9R8jJPmI+ZUzNQ1cAbHDvh bHTouwi672s4uGhsmOuVMxnrKsuhxKyX15SPVsy+gldMY6nR10nDbRQs1nuqkpwO DT0rlXjCI5pQoPCjzIpUtXHER9zUuOo= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id yOik9yeHjH+H; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:47:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (95-25-94-54.broadband.corbina.ru [95.25.94.54]) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EE9F9294098; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:47:24 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Newton , weirds@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:45:05 -0000 Hi Andy, Section 2. says about path specification, but doesn't say how client will locate such path. By which I mean different RIR will clearly could go with different path, and may do changes in time to this path, hardcoding this path in client isn't best solution. Or this will be covered in another draft? Please excuse my ignorance on topic. Thanks On 21.09.2011 19:25, Andy Newton wrote: > Arturo, Kaveh and I have put together a new draft for a common RIR URL scheme: > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00.txt > > Comments welcomed. > > -andy > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From vesely@tana.it Wed Sep 21 09:56:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D531F0CB8 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Df1m0s+UI3uU for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2A41F0CB4 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316624333; bh=Pj2ta3+7eSk9NPztlxlfqTuRkZy3AiFQ5EujlVS9PDc=; l=972; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ueqvd8mcEczuK53YsYdkkRxGk3BHql/4iCDjYufrgcaVkmRqj+Vd0jlVBqXJGJf0D 38hqoceRXX8CSJ+F8mfGuloEVS790c5SsK4ktTbCL4wr75AngD4c38yPCGXTRbLzXR hJNkLOWGv0Fxk6VNMKw+38uXHnqenJuzPObjb/sk= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:58:53 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E7A17CD.00004C5A Message-ID: <4E7A17CC.2050008@tana.it> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:58:52 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:56:26 -0000 On 21/Sep/11 17:25, Andy Newton wrote: > Arturo, Kaveh and I have put together a new draft for a common RIR > URL scheme: > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00.txt > > Comments welcomed. I'm unable to understand the need for the rDNS type of query. How is /rdns/2.0.192.in-addr.arpa different from /ip/192.0.2? Possibly, the latter could allow CIDR notation, e.g. /ip/192.0.2/24. Optional and numeric, it allows any combination, e.g.: http://example.com/somepath/ip/192.0.2.0/operator http://example.com/somepath/ip/192.0.2.0/24/operator http://example.com/somepath/ip/192.0.2/24/operator http://example.com/somepath/ip/192.0.2.80/26/operator http://example.com/somepath/ip/192.0.2.80/26 With respect to the "quick fix using DNS", this one can certainly serve more structure. However, it misses some way of discovering the "example.com" and "somepath" parts. For a typo, s/maybe/may be/ in its only occurrence. From andy@arin.net Wed Sep 21 09:58:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEAA11E80D9 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBUy3BkRRnUV for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C207811E808C for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id D2CD621366F; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF6121365F; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:00:23 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:00:34 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Nikolay Shopik Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQA= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:00:34 +0000 Message-ID: <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> In-Reply-To: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <464BE838D296DB499950C97832BAF643@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:58:13 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 12:47 PM, Nikolay Shopik wrote: > Section 2. says about path specification, but doesn't say how client will= locate such path. By which I mean different RIR will clearly could go with= different path, and may do changes in time to this path, hardcoding this p= ath in client isn't best solution. >From the first paragraph of Section 2: The uniform patterns start with a base URL specified by each RIR or any other service provider offering this service. That means the RIRs will have to publish their base URLs. It also implies that a person of entrepreneurial spirit could go grab the I= ANA allocations of IP addresses and AS numbers, implement a server that iss= ues HTTP Redirects for the given queries, and let it be known that they pro= vide such a service. -andy= From msk@cloudmark.com Wed Sep 21 10:02:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398D311E80EF for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id grV39E6BJhkE for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht1-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26F011E80EC for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by malice.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.71]) with mapi; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:04:42 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "tk@abusix.com" , "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:04:41 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS Thread-Index: Acx4OD8gX1RoXEEcRKS4D4TehtF83AASDnfA Message-ID: References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <4E799FC2.6070006@abusix.com> In-Reply-To: <4E799FC2.6070006@abusix.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:02:14 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: weirds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Tobias Knecht > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 1:27 AM > To: weirds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS >=20 > All these changes are initiated by policy proposals. Everybody is > allowed to bring in such proposals, discuss it with the community and > try to get consensus. It's undoubtedly great that they're taking these steps, but I think what we= 're after from this side is uniformity. How hard do you think that would b= e to achieve? From andy@arin.net Wed Sep 21 10:24:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D237121F8CAB for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zu3ZhUZnHs8n for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B7111E8087 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id F2C67213664; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7775021361A; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:26:21 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:26:33 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Alessandro Vesely Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYUaMAgAAHuoA= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:26:32 +0000 Message-ID: <737A4364-C420-46B9-B4BD-D23D1B8CD2FE@arin.net> References: <4E7A17CC.2050008@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E7A17CC.2050008@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1A2757F81EA1DB48AB87A5AA9B7FAAEB@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:24:20 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > I'm unable to understand the need for the rDNS type of query. How is > /rdns/2.0.192.in-addr.arpa different from /ip/192.0.2? =20 It separates the queries for "when was this network registered, etc..." fro= m "how is the reverse put together?" Perhaps "registration" under /rdns nee= ds some clarification on that point. > Possibly, the > latter could allow CIDR notation, e.g. /ip/192.0.2/24. Once you get into CIDR notation in queries, there are multiple issues to de= al with. One is what are the matching semantics? Exact, more, less? Additio= nally, some network registrations do not neatly fall into a CIDR boundary a= nd therefore results can be confusing. The vast majority of Whois queries (= at least of ARIN) are straight IP lookups. Also note that CIDR queries can easily yield more than one answer, and that= all the queries in the document are intended to generate either one or no = result. > With respect to the "quick fix using DNS", this one can certainly > serve more structure. However, it misses some way of discovering the > "example.com" and "somepath" parts. See my response to Nikolay. -andy= From shopik@inblock.ru Wed Sep 21 10:24:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB1211E8093 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Qh0c85bGK+5 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFADA21F8CAB for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972872940CA; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:26:49 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316626009; bh=lE+JoN3c72Yvj+uzjXe512rhgeMeRTcJIPe3cjfxcbc=; b=WJm3GOICGohO aKjEEeKsJnndfSOzvGb4puVusBWO3nQ5eDA5dtV1Yjor4ntM3e0RMrxogBcSifdA jAjRDLa5NjJXkv1VaRJ7NwkhrRGs4s6W9Cut+YalNwRKXaYr6bka40vqwgU13NPv 3TB1Z1psybXvH8JqYkNRYngTCa4P1Ew= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id JgTIOYmiVDw1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (95-25-94-54.broadband.corbina.ru [95.25.94.54]) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D2A9C294098; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:26:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:26:44 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Newton References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:24:22 -0000 On 21.09.2011 21:00, Andy Newton wrote: > It also implies that a person of entrepreneurial spirit could go grab the IANA allocations of IP addresses and AS numbers, implement a server that issues HTTP Redirects for the given queries, and let it be known that they provide such a service. We understand IANA have no more allocation in IPv4 so it more like one time work, but not for IPv6. What I thinking was is some kind DNS query which helps detect URL or just subdomain at least, to help redirect request to proper server. From andy@arin.net Wed Sep 21 10:37:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A40E1F0C84 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AAN0BDlss76K for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A4D1F0C6A for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 02F4E16514A; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D734C165144; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:39:57 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:40:07 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Nikolay Shopik Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAAdQAIAAA7wA Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:40:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> In-Reply-To: <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <89D8A657509B96459BBA4BE4FD119A3F@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:37:50 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 1:26 PM, Nikolay Shopik wrote: > We understand IANA have no more allocation in IPv4 so it more like one ti= me work, but not for IPv6. I doubt keeping up with the IANA IPv6 block allocations will be a daunting = task. And it is possible that ICANN could be sweet-talked into hosting such a ser= vice, especially since they seem keen on this RESTful idea too. > What I thinking was is some kind DNS query which helps detect URL or just= subdomain at least, to help redirect request to proper server. I'm familiar with such things: IRIS did it; my name is on the S-NAPTR RFC; = etc... However, such DNS infrastructure always seems to become a deployment= liability rather than a clean solution. A lot of programmers really just w= ant to deal with the HTTP client libraries they know and love, and such lib= raries will likely never contain the necessary DNS knowledge to accomplish = this. -andy= From shopik@inblock.ru Wed Sep 21 11:09:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FA521F8BA2 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m61F2vL8qhuU for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CE821F8BA4 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D062940CA; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:11:38 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316628698; bh=6+O0YcvwFhcTlbyl/uvp4SJz8b/sb49QxF84wgXcGRw=; b=fmTo8FZtodlR kCyfb6MjuQC+GpokSH5lk+M2ofVpw++N8sNREbIHltRWsriRkzAK+SaEhcAZG0Et ghTkeOFiVwwpWMVIV9l5JNCVkSdD9U+topwddQUNQucS3fPmQ801qtPRzdC9iENW f11yHcVl+C2SDU7lxSDfNDZ4erEdH+Y= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id fO1pTRpXorfq; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:11:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (95-25-94-54.broadband.corbina.ru [95.25.94.54]) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CFA7D29409A; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:11:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:11:29 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Newton References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:09:14 -0000 On 21.09.2011 21:40, Andy Newton wrote: > I'm familiar with such things: IRIS did it; my name is on the S-NAPTR RFC; etc... However, such DNS infrastructure always seems to become a deployment liability rather than a clean solution. A lot of programmers really just want to deal with the HTTP client libraries they know and love, and such libraries will likely never contain the necessary DNS knowledge to accomplish this. Fair enough. This is just require programmer to release new versions when there new allocations, as we having this with current WHOIS, which I would like to avoid and make it robust. And from my point of view rollout new DNS record (i didn't read S-NAPTR RFC yet) much easier than doing new HTTP server rollout because of load (just random example). And I barely believe this add lot complexity, maybe I'm wrong? It's just we have hierarchical DNS system, why not make use of it, same as IANA->RIRs->ISPs. And IANA could fill allocation in their DNS zone, just saying. From andy@arin.net Wed Sep 21 11:25:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370C51F0C47 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sy6VENsD2zSw for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A65B1F0C45 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id BDC23165144; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FF0165137; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:27:35 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:27:45 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Nikolay Shopik Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAAdQAIAAA7wAgAAIxYCAAASLgA== Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:27:45 +0000 Message-ID: <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> In-Reply-To: <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1208A0B3AE46A644A312781854E186CD@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:25:20 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Nikolay Shopik wrote: > Fair enough. This is just require programmer to release new versions when= there new allocations, as we having this with current WHOIS, which I would= like to avoid and make it robust. While some Whois clients do have some knowledge of the IANA allocations, a = lot of them simply query ARIN first and the assume a referral based on the = output. ARIN does keep up with the IANA block allocations. This is also possible with the RESTful interface. ARIN or LACNIC or the RIP= E NCC could issue HTTP redirects to other RIRs based on their knowledge of = IANA block allocations. > And from my point of view rollout new DNS record (i didn't read S-NAPTR R= FC yet) much easier than doing new HTTP server rollout because of load (jus= t random example). And I barely believe this add lot complexity, maybe I'm = wrong? >=20 > It's just we have hierarchical DNS system, why not make use of it, same a= s IANA->RIRs->ISPs. And IANA could fill allocation in their DNS zone, just = saying. I hear you. But not all programmers have access to the same tools you do. N= early all of them can get their hands on an HTTP client library, but advanc= ed DNS libraries are not that wide spread. -andy From drc@virtualized.org Wed Sep 21 12:05:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EB21F0CBD for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:05:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sdZX215gIqsm for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7BE1F0C9B for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-64-9-232-194.googlewifi.com (user-64-9-232-194.googlewifi.com [64.9.232.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87FC017054; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:07:30 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <201109210908.p8L98RSY033783@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:07:22 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9F7F6896-C113-455D-B5B8-9A58FD795163@virtualized.org> References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <201109210908.p8L98RSY033783@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:05:06 -0000 Jaap, On Sep 21, 2011, at 2:08 AM, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > Anyway, this discussion shows to me that there is a real need for > decent structured information from a "whois type of service" Yes, but this is neither a surprise nor a problem for which multiple = solutions haven't already been proposed and ignored in the past. > and > that a quick fix using DNS (which started this discussion) is not > going to fly. The advantage of a "quick fix using DNS" is that it greatly decreases = the degrees of freedom in order to solve an extremely limited problem in = a way that would be easy to deploy on existing infrastructure. There = would be _one_ solution that people all over the Internet trying to find = abuse contacts regardless of the resource type could rely upon. Instead, I fear we're going down the exact same road whois++, rwhois, = and crisp/iris have gone down. A solution will undoubtedly be proposed = to meet a politically distinct subset of the Internet resulting in = _different_ solutions to the _exact same problem_ for no reason other = than "Not Invented Here Syndrome" (unless someone can successfully argue = that the needs for an abuse contact in the ccTLD space is different than = the need for an abuse contact in the RIR space). I keep hoping folks will remember that despite all the political = interest groups, there is _one_ Internet and that the folks who need to = make use of registration-related data don't bloody well care the = political affiliation of the registering body. I also keep hoping for = world peace, with the same likelihood of having that hope met. As I said, your registration dollars/euros/etc. at work. Regards, -drc From aservin@lacnic.net Wed Sep 21 14:39:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2C811E80D0 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNXKj01WBrwH for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067CA21F86D0 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:3501:3394:fca4:2429] (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:3501:3394:fca4:2429]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7C6308447; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:41:45 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:41:44 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4D4623C3-A49D-4FB6-948D-A63A3B6219FE@lacnic.net> References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> To: Nikolay Shopik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:39:20 -0000 Nikolay, I am not sure if I understand your question. We are not defining = the answer yet for a query, but for example if you query RIR-x whois = with a resource (IPv4, ASN or IPv6) which is not in the RIR-x pool the = reply can have a re-direct field to the proper RIR (left-right) or the = the top level (down-top), which is IANA. Then a query to IANA would have = the redirect to the proper RIR (up-down). Regarding use of DNS, I would prefer to keep this our of DNS = transport and to use only http. Regards, .as On 21 Sep 2011, at 15:27, Andy Newton wrote: >=20 > On Sep 21, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Nikolay Shopik wrote: >=20 >> Fair enough. This is just require programmer to release new versions = when there new allocations, as we having this with current WHOIS, which = I would like to avoid and make it robust. >=20 > While some Whois clients do have some knowledge of the IANA = allocations, a lot of them simply query ARIN first and the assume a = referral based on the output. ARIN does keep up with the IANA block = allocations. >=20 > This is also possible with the RESTful interface. ARIN or LACNIC or = the RIPE NCC could issue HTTP redirects to other RIRs based on their = knowledge of IANA block allocations. >=20 >> And from my point of view rollout new DNS record (i didn't read = S-NAPTR RFC yet) much easier than doing new HTTP server rollout because = of load (just random example). And I barely believe this add lot = complexity, maybe I'm wrong? >>=20 >> It's just we have hierarchical DNS system, why not make use of it, = same as IANA->RIRs->ISPs. And IANA could fill allocation in their DNS = zone, just saying. >=20 > I hear you. But not all programmers have access to the same tools you = do. Nearly all of them can get their hands on an HTTP client library, = but advanced DNS libraries are not that wide spread. >=20 > -andy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From aservin@lacnic.net Wed Sep 21 14:42:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA91311E80D0 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAiNWDJseGDe for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3895C11E80C5 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:3501:3394:fca4:2429] (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:3501:3394:fca4:2429]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067C930843C for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:44:45 -0300 (UYT) From: Arturo Servin Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D4783278-6EBD-406B-9FEC-7A22FC6D43A0" Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 18:44:45 -0300 In-Reply-To: <4D4623C3-A49D-4FB6-948D-A63A3B6219FE@lacnic.net> To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> <4D4623C3-A49D-4FB6-948D-A63A3B6219FE@lacnic.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:42:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D4783278-6EBD-406B-9FEC-7A22FC6D43A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I meant "out of DNS transport". .as On 21 Sep 2011, at 18:41, Arturo Servin wrote: > Regarding use of DNS, I would prefer to keep this our of DNS transport = and to use only http. --Apple-Mail=_D4783278-6EBD-406B-9FEC-7A22FC6D43A0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii = I meant "out of DNS = transport".

.as

On 21 Sep = 2011, at 18:41, Arturo Servin wrote:

Regarding use = of DNS, I would prefer to keep this our of DNS transport and to use only = http.

= --Apple-Mail=_D4783278-6EBD-406B-9FEC-7A22FC6D43A0-- From jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl Wed Sep 21 14:43:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B345811E8119 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OzqwHWafWY9Y for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE7911E8128 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 14:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8LLk1RD032178; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:46:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <201109212146.p8LLk1RD032178@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: weirds@ietf.org In-reply-to: <9F7F6896-C113-455D-B5B8-9A58FD795163@virtualized.org> References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <201109210908.p8L98RSY033783@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <9F7F6896-C113-455D-B5B8-9A58FD795163@virtualized.org> Comments: In-reply-to David Conrad message dated "Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:07:22 -0700." Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:46:01 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:46:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 21:43:37 -0000 David, The advantage of a "quick fix using DNS" is that it greatly decreases the degrees of freedom in order to solve an extremely limited problem in a way that would be easy to deploy on existing infrastructure. There would be _one_solution that people all over the Internet trying to find abuse contacts regardless of the resource type could rely upon. To me it seems that the use of a text record in DNS is similar as the original ask-a-question, get an-unstructured-blob-as-answer whois (port 43) protocol. (And I was thinking on the general case, not just abuse contacts). Instead, I fear we're going down the exact same road whois++, rwhois, and crisp/iris have gone down. A solution will undoubtedly be proposed to meet a politically distinct subset of the Internet resulting in _different_ solutions to the _exact same problem_ for no reason other than "Not Invented Here Syndrome" (unless someone can successfully argue that the needs for an abuse contact in the ccTLD space is different than the need for an abuse contact in the RIR space). Was the NIH syndrome the reason of the crisp/iris failure? I'm afraid I didn't follow the debate closely. However if people want to try this out using DNS for a limited whois-type service, all the better. And yes, I agree, world peace is a nice idea as well. Syntax error: found before matching (*) jaap (*) Add smileys to taste From drc@virtualized.org Wed Sep 21 15:46:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2781F0CF9 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSkOzGo7xgS7 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D041F0CE4 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [173.245.57.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 792BD1704E; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:48:45 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <201109212146.p8LLk1RD032178@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:48:43 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7BF6AB58-FA85-4D46-820D-6CC75D2AC3DE@virtualized.org> References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <201109201934.p8KJYNBa043293@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <201109210908.p8L98RSY033783@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <9F7F6896-C113-455D-B5B8-9A58FD795163@virtualized.org> <201109212146.p8LLk1RD032178@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:46:16 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > To me it seems that the use of a text record in DNS is similar as > the original ask-a-question, get an-unstructured-blob-as-answer > whois (port 43) protocol. I've suggested using RP for exactly this reason -- the answer is = explicitly structured. > (And I was thinking on the general case, not just abuse contacts). I'm fairly certain the general case is unsolvable (for non-technical = reasons). > Was the NIH syndrome the reason of the crisp/iris failure? Point taken. There also was no business reason for most to spend = money/develop/deploy crisp/iris (or whois++ or rwhois), either client or = server. There is probably a lesson there somewhere. In any event, I'll go back to lurking mode. It is clear to me that minds = are made up. Regards, -drc From leo.vegoda@icann.org Wed Sep 21 16:04:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63A91F0D31 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7slSyYmtYCNV for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org (expfe100-1.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ABFC1F0D2D for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.236]) with mapi; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:06:53 -0700 From: Leo Vegoda To: Nikolay Shopik Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 16:06:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: Acx4syZD3KY/wDDURraZsekOsx+aEg== Message-ID: References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> In-Reply-To: <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:04:24 -0000 On Sep 21, 2011, at 11:11 am, Nikolay Shopik wrote: [=85] > Fair enough. This is just require programmer to release new versions=20 > when there new allocations, as we having this with current WHOIS, which=20 > I would like to avoid and make it robust. Not just a new version, but for everyone using it to install the new versio= n. History shows that static configurations that need to manually be update= d don't work well. I think that requiring a software update following an al= location event in an IANA registry is a bad idea.=20 Regards, Leo= From johnl@iecc.com Wed Sep 21 22:19:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B7921F8D30 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qr4s2pfSlo4X for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E9A21F8CB1 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 88833 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2011 05:21:51 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2011 05:21:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 77743 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2011 05:21:50 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2011 05:21:50 -0000 Date: 22 Sep 2011 05:21:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:19:22 -0000 >It also implies that a person of entrepreneurial spirit could go grab >the IANA allocations of IP addresses and AS numbers, implement a >server that issues HTTP Redirects for the given queries, and let it >be known that they provide such a service. You're not thinking like a lazy PHP programmer. You just send the same query to all the RIR and country registries, and pick the one that doesn't 404. Oh, are all those bogus queries a problem? Well, it's not MY problem. It seems to me that if we're going to go to the effort to invent something like this, it's worth figuring out a way to provide a consistent namespace. So long as we could persuade the RIRs to use consistent URLS, we lazy non-PHP programmers would be inclined to do it in the DNS. Assuming the stuff is all at URLs like, say, http:///ip/n.n.n.n/whatever We could route stuff with rDNS style CNAMEs: *.2.restwhois.net CNAME restful.ripe.net ; 2/8 allocated to RIPE *.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.apnic.net ; 202/8 allocated to APNIC *.0.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.1.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.2.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.3.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.4.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.5.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.6.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.7.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.8.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.9.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic *.10.123.202.restwhois.net CNAME restful.afrinic.net ; 202.123/19 to Afrinic etc. So then your URL is http://..,.restwhois.net/ip/.../whatever If we believe that web servers can see the URL, we can even leave the IP address out of the local part. R's, John PS: Yes, it's a kludge. It's no worse than a lot of other stuff. From kranjbar@ripe.net Thu Sep 22 00:27:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B229621F8B6F for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:27:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dYly--MY5Hxv for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postlady.ripe.net (postlady.ipv6.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:67c:2e8:11::c100:1341]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CC421F8772 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayeaye.ripe.net ([193.0.23.5]) by postlady.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R6dio-0000GA-5b for weirds@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:29:27 +0200 Received: from kranjbar.vpn.ripe.net ([193.0.21.67] helo=guest10.guestnet.ripe.net) by ayeaye.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R6dio-0002NN-17 for weirds@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:29:26 +0200 Message-ID: <4E7AE3D6.5060207@ripe.net> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:29:26 +0200 From: Kaveh Ranjbar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E7A17CC.2050008@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E7A17CC.2050008@tana.it> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: --- X-RIPE-Spam-Report: Spam Total Points: -3.4 points pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -0.5 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-RIPE-Signature: 98103304a313f58a8eac8a386a982e5bab97c96045d16715b48152570e600b01 Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:27:03 -0000 On 9/21/11 6:58 PM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: ... > > With respect to the "quick fix using DNS", this one can certainly > serve more structure. However, it misses some way of discovering the > "example.com" and "somepath" parts. ... Hello, I see two different requirements here: a) Discovery of "example.com" and "somepath" parts for any registry. For this requirement, there are different technical solutions, an example is use of UDDI. We can simply put together a public UDDI Registry which publishes service endpoints for any registry. Clients can automatically access these data then. Obviously there are other solutions as well. I agree that we have to consider the "lazy PHP programmer" if we aim for wide spread adoption. b) Finding the responsible Registry for a given resource. Though this might look simple, it is a lot more complicated. There is Early Registration Space as well as Inter-RIR Transfers among other things which makes creating a universal registry, or a clean look-up list close to impossible. RIR's are working to improve the situation, by both cleaning up data and implementing new tools (one example in RIPE is GRS Whois) but that's still work in progress. Personally I think it is better to tackle one problem at a time. First let's start with making the general queries to RIRs standard (which we are working on), then we can think about making the response more generic and finally we can discuss service discovery and IANA Delegation resolving. Regards, Kaveh. From tk@abusix.org Thu Sep 22 02:09:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8580A21F8CFC for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:09:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWEboXlb0uUI for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8600B21F8CED for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so2680469fxd.31 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abusix.org; s=google; h=sender:message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type; bh=U+ntPTwdwLaGrS2rMM0wB9+2tVwdBWS9v/7EixG5MZo=; b=dFyY0FdWYKS+mBwkDxZxDFRuUmLHYBCMS+dSEuCHHlgplTbiV4WVz5DPEfYPKvMzt+ myzIELaMjVhqlW3c16Wjk3AeabmeEbCYKkNSXY0IKShqtHv2m56eXJ0xrUOlgwG2Q0/s DGuJLRebP4kXVGMkPZpO3ljzBlt0ORh/LbFjw= Received: by 10.223.88.22 with SMTP id y22mr2676855fal.144.1316682729775; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macmini.local (pinky.abusix.org. [83.169.54.8]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e17sm6878691fae.17.2011.09.22.02.12.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tobias Knecht Message-ID: <4E7AFBE3.8070407@abusix.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:12:03 +0200 From: Tobias Knecht Organization: abusix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <20110920190915.28652.qmail@joyce.lan> <4E799FC2.6070006@abusix.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig899CC07974CE03CC0868CC2B" Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] For a new task: whois abuse-contacts via DNS X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: tk@abusix.com List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:09:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig899CC07974CE03CC0868CC2B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> All these changes are initiated by policy proposals. Everybody is=20 >> allowed to bring in such proposals, discuss it with the community >> and try to get consensus. >=20 > It's undoubtedly great that they're taking these steps, but I think > what we're after from this side is uniformity. How hard do you think > that would be to achieve? That is a really good question. Imho this will be really tricky since the RIRs (AfriNIC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, RIPE) are different and the communities are really different as well. From technical and cultural perspective. If you want to have a unified system, you have to bring in the same proposals to all 5 RIRs and get it ratified by the community and hope that the RIR will be able to put things in practice. This is somehing that will probably not happen in 2012 ;-) Thanks, Tobias --------------enig899CC07974CE03CC0868CC2B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk56++cACgkQX1iWbSWuwmwdsACfZ0ltDUq98hJsNefL+YqXbl/O HB4Anjul7FrmkFmyosGm6K6oyOvYB2FF =FxyD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig899CC07974CE03CC0868CC2B-- From shopik@inblock.ru Thu Sep 22 02:38:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B1621F8BE4 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:38:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TXNVhQ5MfK6f for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F5F21F8B6D for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56212940CA; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:40:47 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316684447; bh=w07KGfme23u8+j64nwjMHwShqfFFypOwglEj3UPqFS0=; b=muaFrZjai7AC gda+2UWD3jQDhiFKY9Jyf0EQXSXGtvvsHIrlnbUE1/YdDIk6NYaoIogm4BtIZpsg oQYdLQ+ABXF70FSXsu4xUUqJfNfVN2DePTtaa78RzZtubxCg3NyBQkFO+fvud/56 PSwSw53HQvOrieGG538owSpzIxWzvVQ= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BB9vdlbMJ3BP; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.20.69] (83-69-202-99.in-addr.mastertelecom.ru [83.69.202.99]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4322B294098; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7B029E.6060201@inblock.ru> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:40:46 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arturo Servin References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> <4D4623C3-A49D-4FB6-948D-A63A3B6219FE@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: <4D4623C3-A49D-4FB6-948D-A63A3B6219FE@lacnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:38:18 -0000 Arturo, If we could do proper redirection via HTTP I'm fine with that. I'm just propose DNS because it just seems fit here as hierarchical system and easy to maintain. Detect right whois server is pain right now. New ccTLD introduced and I have to update my whois client, same apply for new ASN. On 22/09/11 01:41, Arturo Servin wrote: > Regarding use of DNS, I would prefer to keep this our of DNS transport and to use only http. From shopik@inblock.ru Thu Sep 22 02:41:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE72821F87C2 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:41:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQTjJhPkH+Gx for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAA021F86C1 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A772940CA; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:44:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316684669; bh=+rTtMUDc6vV87R/a1DvTsLzYwl4Oxf3oO9jqN2j4EVU=; b=RfX6jtbz9ZL3 n6WQpEkcECmHMicNXxW6Op3wSORZAKGDKtF8glIPzAtHO2B7SvtsnttiBXUoPR6j W1HCy8PQPr7n2Ot62XI6lR4eIX8yMOu6QNlAonZPTIQhQqvpzI0OYmFoUgFzi/2P uJJskvrr4leVIqVNR1+wXTohUu80HiI= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Az3NDJYlJzQY; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:44:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.20.69] (83-69-202-99.in-addr.mastertelecom.ru [83.69.202.99]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F670294098; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:44:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7B037C.7090709@inblock.ru> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:44:28 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Newton References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:41:59 -0000 On 21/09/11 22:27, Andy Newton wrote: > I hear you. But not all programmers have access to the same tools you do. Nearly all of them can get their hands on an HTTP client library, but advanced DNS libraries are not that wide spread. My assumption was most people will use generic implementation of WIERDS client, instead of writing their own. Or something I misunderstood in your sentence? From keith@blacknight.com Thu Sep 22 02:51:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C391721F85CE for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:51:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIHyHsDeMfA2 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.blacknight.com (relay1.blacknight.com [78.153.203.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB83521F85A1 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hegemon.blacknight.ie (hegemon.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.239]) by relay1.blacknight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340A848033A for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:54:19 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:54:19 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Organization: Blacknight Internet Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) Gecko/20110831 Thunderbird/3.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 09:51:51 -0000 On 21/09/11 16:25, Andy Newton wrote: > Arturo, Kaveh and I have put together a new draft for a common RIR URL scheme: > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00.txt > > Comments welcomed. This is breaks the HATEAOS constraint of REST and is thus not RESTful. It's possible to make this RESTful by introducing URI templates[1] and a resource--a service document--describing the URI patterns. Thus the only URIs that need to be well-known are those of the service documents detailing the URI templates for WEIRDS databases. Introducing these two introduces only minimal overhead as clients can cache the service document after it has been initially fetched. Clients are thus decoupled from having to be hardwired for a particular URI namespace and servers are free to modify the URIs for various resources as fits their needs. Omitting any namespace declarations, an example of a minimal service document would look like this: I did this up in XML just for demonstration purposes, but that's really beside the point: the important thing here is that clients no longer care what the URIs are and servers are free to implement the namespace as suits them. Even then, something like the example document wouldn't be that hard for even a lazy PHP programmer to deal with: XPath is hardly rocket science. The one thing I can see people being worried about here is that URI templates are not yet in the RFC phase, but are still in the ID phase. I don't see that as being much of a problem myself: RIR query ID can specify the minimal stable subset of URI templates as I've given above--simple placeholders--and later when the URI templates ID becomes an RFC (which is pretty much guaranteed to happen), the spec can be updated to reference that instead. On the topic of the 'Accept' header, I don't think it's up to us to have to work around idiot HTTP intermediaries. We could end up filling up half the ID with various workarounds for that, and it only duplicates something already specified in HTTP itself unnecessarily. If clients have to work around broken intermediaries, they're frankly better off bunging a safe cache buster onto the end of the URI. K. [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-06 -- Keith Gaughan, Senior Developer PGP/GPG key ID: 3E896381 Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd. 12A Barrowside Business Park, Carlow, Ireland Registered in Ireland, Company No.: 370845 From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 03:31:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8601321F8D52 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.969 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.969 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSlgOLH+xqNY for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC1421F8D4F for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwf22 with SMTP id 22so1349598wwf.13 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=4CeHMze4zaI2CjuAZq+Ue99sjyPw4igxFttx7CD/m4Q=; b=TG9l1WYHUlqxgweKghg+U3mHs1d2YwLAkgYQgnLaEhFaOEaqN7Y7nv13TDQPYMLNk0 NkhLtFOc/+ENzyrXkmtQTCP4uKPIB/riFlkYpxMS2zqlBD0CUtcjdzVRH8k+eSh+KX4G 67AXb3yFNWK6iEGoeGyn1BTrhKVw4hUbkX3co= Received: by 10.227.11.81 with SMTP id s17mr1966234wbs.62.1316687616088; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:33:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.8.34 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 03:32:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:32:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: "weirds@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:06 -0000 On 22 September 2011 11:54, Keith Gaughan wrote: > This is breaks the HATEAOS constraint of REST and is thus not > RESTful. With the help of Wikipedia I figured out that nobody "hates AOS". I'm also confident that I won't try to implement this "just for fun". (But I guess others will like it.) > when the URI templates ID becomes an RFC (which is pretty much > guaranteed to happen), the spec can be updated One caveat here (wrt a normative reference) is "don't hold your breath", the work on URI templates started (at least) five years ago. [1] -Frank > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-06 From keith@blacknight.com Thu Sep 22 04:09:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4C121F8C29 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBJWpqznDm5o for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.blacknight.com (relay1.blacknight.com [78.153.203.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ACD21F8C10 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hegemon.blacknight.ie (hegemon.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.239]) by relay1.blacknight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F7A4803AF for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:11:41 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4E7B17EB.6020803@blacknight.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:11:39 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Organization: Blacknight Internet Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) Gecko/20110831 Thunderbird/3.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:09:13 -0000 On 22/09/11 11:32, Frank Ellermann wrote: > On 22 September 2011 11:54, Keith Gaughan wrote: > >> This is breaks the HATEAOS constraint of REST and is thus not >> RESTful. > > With the help of Wikipedia I figured out that nobody "hates AOS". > I'm also confident that I won't try to implement this "just for > fun". (But I guess others will like it.) Sorry, typo. Meant HATEOAS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS >> when the URI templates ID becomes an RFC (which is pretty much >> guaranteed to happen), the spec can be updated > > One caveat here (wrt a normative reference) is "don't hold your > breath", the work on URI templates started (at least) five years > ago. [1] Yep, hence my minimal stable subset suggestion. We needn't depend on the ID becoming an RFC any time soon, but the *concept* of URI templates is separate from any particular syntax. That the ID specifies is a particular syntax, and a minimal subset of that--simple placeholders bound by '{' and '}'--is stable and can be specified making reference only to RFC2396 (section 2.4) to specify how the values ought to be escaped before they're embedded in the string. Here's the code to implement that minimal subset in Python: import re import urllib def replace(template, values): result = "" start = 0 for match in re.finditer(r"\{([a-z_]+)\}", template): result += template[start:match.start(0)] key, = match.groups() if key in values: result += urllib.quote(values[key]) start = match.end(0) result += template[start:] return result That was typed off the top of my head, contains little or no error handling, and may contain minor bugs. Caveat lector. K. -- Keith Gaughan, Senior Developer PGP/GPG key ID: 3E896381 Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd. 12A Barrowside Business Park, Carlow, Ireland Registered in Ireland, Company No.: 370845 From keith@blacknight.com Thu Sep 22 04:23:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D0621F8BF8 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKEDaJeRG89y for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.blacknight.com (relay1.blacknight.com [78.153.203.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377D821F8BE5 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hegemon.blacknight.ie (hegemon.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.239]) by relay1.blacknight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F8B4803BF for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:25:57 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4E7B1B45.1080806@blacknight.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:25:57 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Organization: Blacknight Internet Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) Gecko/20110831 Thunderbird/3.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> <4E7B17EB.6020803@blacknight.com> In-Reply-To: <4E7B17EB.6020803@blacknight.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:23:31 -0000 On 22/09/11 12:11, Keith Gaughan wrote: > That was typed off the top of my head, contains little or no error handling, > and may contain minor bugs. Caveat lector. Felt guilty about not checking it, so here's a shorter version using the sub() function that I've actually verified is correct: import re import urllib def replace(template, values): def on_match(match): key = match.group(1) if key in values: return urllib.quote(values[key]) return '' return re.sub(r"\{([a-z_]+)\}", on_match, template) -- Keith Gaughan, Senior Developer PGP/GPG key ID: 3E896381 Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd. 12A Barrowside Business Park, Carlow, Ireland Registered in Ireland, Company No.: 370845 From aservin@lacnic.net Thu Sep 22 04:28:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBA621F8CC8 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:28:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.203, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H7fzH1coFx+5 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D938A21F8CC1 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (r186-48-194-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [186.48.194.77]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB6F308436; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:30:35 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <4E7B037C.7090709@inblock.ru> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:30:34 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> <4E7B037C.7090709@inblock.ru> To: Nikolay Shopik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:28:16 -0000 Nikolay. There is no WEIRDS client (or there are many already there). = That's why I like http and not dns. The client is any http agent (wget, curl, webkit, urllib, etc.).=20= For me it wouldn't be very difficult to build a whois server and = even some API in python/java using restful services. Whilst with DNS, I = wouldn't know where to start for the server and for the client I would = use shell scripts (or to dig in some python/java libs). I guess it is = not very different for many others trying to produce/use data to/from = whois. =09 Regards, /as On 22 Sep 2011, at 06:44, Nikolay Shopik wrote: > On 21/09/11 22:27, Andy Newton wrote: >> I hear you. But not all programmers have access to the same tools you = do. Nearly all of them can get their hands on an HTTP client library, = but advanced DNS libraries are not that wide spread. >=20 > My assumption was most people will use generic implementation of = WIERDS client, instead of writing their own. Or something I = misunderstood in your sentence? > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From andy@arin.net Thu Sep 22 04:35:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA3C21F8CDE for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IenN9Px1kbGx for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE83B21F8CDB for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 79FC81650EC; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED031650E9; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:09 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:18 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Keith Gaughan Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VZbVmAgAAdDYA= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:38:18 +0000 Message-ID: <42FE24C5-7A2E-4C46-A1BD-99B0667CF69D@arin.net> References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> In-Reply-To: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <39E2C8ED5431774D94B34DFD35133922@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:35:54 -0000 On Sep 22, 2011, at 5:54 AM, Keith Gaughan wrote: > On the topic of the 'Accept' header, I don't think it's up to us to have = to > work around idiot HTTP intermediaries. We could end up filling up half th= e ID > with various workarounds for that, and it only duplicates something alrea= dy > specified in HTTP itself unnecessarily. If clients have to work around br= oken > intermediaries, they're frankly better off bunging a safe cache buster on= to > the end of the URI. Interesting. What's your proposal for the cache busting? We reserve a query= parameter for clients to put in a random value? -andy= From andy@arin.net Thu Sep 22 04:48:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0670321F8C59 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xmsk2OFx7oHF for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8E121F8C52 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 2D46C213678; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A52213666; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:50:28 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:50:42 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: John Levine Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAM8CAIAAbL0A Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:50:41 +0000 Message-ID: <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> References: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:48:39 -0000 On Sep 22, 2011, at 1:21 AM, John Levine wrote: > So then your URL is >=20 > http://..,.restwhois.net/ip/.../whatever >=20 > If we believe that web servers can see the URL, we can even leave the > IP address out of the local part. >=20 > R's, > John >=20 > PS: Yes, it's a kludge. It's no worse than a lot of other stuff. Doesn't seem kludgy to me. I kinda like it. But I don't see how it takes care of the autnum space. I guess we could hav= e a zone allocated with every autnum in it, but that would be a huge zone. However, my biggest question is that if you have taken the time to capture = "restwhois.net" or some other well-known domain name, why not just run an H= TTP server on that domain that issues redirects? As for the lazy PHP programmer... I'm well use to them. As I mentioned earl= y, in the port 43 world a lot of queries start at ARIN and end up at RIPE o= r LACNIC, etc.... That's because ARIN attempts to keep track of IANA alloca= tions in its Whois, and client writers have taken that to mean they can imp= ly referrals. There is nothing stopping this model going forward, although = Kaveh's suggestion does improve upon it. -andy= From shopik@inblock.ru Thu Sep 22 05:24:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C21C21F8CA4 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.096 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ge0h72VKFH8u for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inblock.ru (ns.km31619.keymachine.de [62.141.52.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3E421F8C64 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0A92940CA; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:26:33 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=inblock.ru; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=keyweb; t=1316694393; bh=hMeD+IN5xAyWkrcaNje9EZfySJ4VgbpUWIxO/nF3/pA=; b=LMTcPz3z2GCf aVkFX/uVpFWlHt7O4tNSWCVrxeMtcwfaYdihHVTlqzB46SbqtDEHkjGOiXDQSTu5 TOctJt8fMMzyJEXSvT7EjCCHciDN56YUv5RniZz5tlFwvgX3QVaLXfnQYPTBGC0i lB1cG1ohBQ8ol4T9O4q76NzmMBy73V4= Received: from mail.inblock.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (km31619.keymachine.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xAYJ-cSR7g9K; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:26:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.20.69] (83-69-202-99.in-addr.mastertelecom.ru [83.69.202.99]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: shopik@inblock.ru) by mail.inblock.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA9C329409A; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:26:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E7B2977.4020700@inblock.ru> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 16:26:31 +0400 From: Nikolay Shopik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arturo Servin References: <4E7A151C.6000604@inblock.ru> <70E4B92F-3ADA-427D-829D-14D77F012429@arin.net> <4E7A1E54.7040803@inblock.ru> <1631F746-26EA-4896-AEE5-001C341CAE01@arin.net> <4E7A28D1.2040300@inblock.ru> <1AA297E4-5500-40EA-A531-0189BBE7E4DE@arin.net> <4E7B037C.7090709@inblock.ru> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:24:07 -0000 Arturo, Thanks for clearing this up for me. I had doubts and small misunderstanding what it will be "WEIRDS" client. So I have to write my own script to do output for me. And now I understand your position, about building whois server. On 22/09/11 15:30, Arturo Servin wrote: > Nikolay. > > There is no WEIRDS client (or there are many already there). That's why I like http and not dns. > > The client is any http agent (wget, curl, webkit, urllib, etc.). > > For me it wouldn't be very difficult to build a whois server and even some API in python/java using restful services. Whilst with DNS, I wouldn't know where to start for the server and for the client I would use shell scripts (or to dig in some python/java libs). I guess it is not very different for many others trying to produce/use data to/from whois. > > > Regards, > /as > > On 22 Sep 2011, at 06:44, Nikolay Shopik wrote: > >> On 21/09/11 22:27, Andy Newton wrote: >>> I hear you. But not all programmers have access to the same tools you do. Nearly all of them can get their hands on an HTTP client library, but advanced DNS libraries are not that wide spread. >> >> My assumption was most people will use generic implementation of WIERDS client, instead of writing their own. Or something I misunderstood in your sentence? >> _______________________________________________ >> weirds mailing list >> weirds@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds > From johnl@iecc.com Thu Sep 22 06:33:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB5621F8CA8 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:33:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4v3xNwTykBd1 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E876A21F8C93 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6725 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2011 13:36:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=1a44.4e7b39ce.k1109; bh=EgU/tL2XbeTivHy0czMdxHBgBFeQt81sCZK89iQWBf4=; b=Bud6Mw/kWBFzX2K4pcgwaz/Lrge17BHbI2EGvlOEaokkmi3gSpFDQZbycAJ1DjfBtUdbzm0xk1Oe8LqJne2Ajy0H6f5OgmwHJYbjiuVkIE2jSHByRI2ibpV/0AZb4spKnZtjn2tHw04+CzFV36h4vjcusBGu7lLO/SLpnwzwvTs= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 22 Sep 2011 13:35:51 -0000 Date: 22 Sep 2011 09:36:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Andy Newton" In-Reply-To: <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> References: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:33:45 -0000 > But I don't see how it takes care of the autnum space. I guess we could > have a zone allocated with every autnum in it, but that would be a huge > zone. You could do the usual rDNS trick, divide the number into smaller pieces and use wildcards. For ASN 1234567890 it might be http://0.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1.asn.restwhois.net/asn/1234567890/whatever > However, my biggest question is that if you have taken the time to > capture "restwhois.net" or some other well-known domain name, why not > just run an HTTP server on that domain that issues redirects? Scaling. DNS is cached UDP queries, http is mostly uncached TCP queries. If someone's willing to provide the central http server and deal with the load, I wouldn't object, but I don't know who's likely to pay for it. I expect the load on the thing would be at least as much as the load on ARIN's WHOIS server. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 06:48:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1264021F8C89 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:48:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.975 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wdTtHCLweu8Z for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ACF21F8C1E for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwf22 with SMTP id 22so1521055wwf.13 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:51:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=UkAi36ripTIz78M31cUX5TnJwjmRXaee6hICGY/CB4Q=; b=I1UulUfo5I1KZPnvMHCufAG4RSD1C9SIgcj86/ukBzvgRpXSAM2OGOhrO6krtMrsU2 a1AYH9O0/z7K4HsbXgDG5gOxmXR5VrOIoJsROlI/5E/kyZd7p8PjB88RuG7wH6ELqKRM vUHlLyqbxdle79w2GLiCCYHYgxRUzdP9xxhQ4= Received: by 10.227.11.81 with SMTP id s17mr2206398wbs.62.1316699460057; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:51:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.8.34 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:50:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E7B17EB.6020803@blacknight.com> References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> <4E7B17EB.6020803@blacknight.com> From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:50:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Keith Gaughan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:48:30 -0000 On 22 September 2011 13:11, Keith Gaughan wrote: > Sorry, typo. Meant HATEOAS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS Oops, "re-sorry", what I wrote wasn't intended as a spelling joke: I simply didn't know the abbreviation, let alone how it's spelled. -Frank From andy@arin.net Thu Sep 22 07:38:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A453321F8CB3 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pBavGvPnL2og for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24AD21F8CB2 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 76E801650C4; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558A21650B8; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:40:49 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:39:02 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: "John R. Levine" Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAM8CAIAAbL0AgAAdfoCAABIcAA== Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:41:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6522092E3AFB4243AD372181700E719B@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:38:38 -0000 On Sep 22, 2011, at 9:36 AM, John R. Levine wrote: >> But I don't see how it takes care of the autnum space. I guess we could = have a zone allocated with every autnum in it, but that would be a huge zon= e. >=20 > You could do the usual rDNS trick, divide the number into smaller pieces = and use wildcards. For ASN 1234567890 it might be >=20 > http://0.9.8.7.6.5.4.3.2.1.asn.restwhois.net/asn/1234567890/whatever That's still a lot of records because autnum allocations don't occur on pre= dictable boundaries. But I get the point. >> However, my biggest question is that if you have taken the time to captu= re "restwhois.net" or some other well-known domain name, why not just run a= n HTTP server on that domain that issues redirects? >=20 > Scaling. DNS is cached UDP queries, http is mostly uncached TCP queries.= If someone's willing to provide the central http server and deal with the = load, I wouldn't object, but I don't know who's likely to pay for it. I ex= pect the load on the thing would be at least as much as the load on ARIN's = WHOIS server. HTTP caching does exist, and the issues around scaling web services are wel= l-trodden, even if the solutions don't use public infrastructure. In our experience, the larger issues do not come from using TCP over UDP, b= ut from expensive searches against our database... none of which are specif= ied in this draft. -andy= From keith@blacknight.com Thu Sep 22 07:41:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF2321F8D16 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:41:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UHy+fZJQwq3D for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.blacknight.com (relay1.blacknight.com [78.153.203.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9132621F8D00 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hegemon.blacknight.ie (hegemon.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.239]) by relay1.blacknight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B20385C001 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:44:01 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4E7B49B0.8090701@blacknight.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:44:00 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Organization: Blacknight Internet Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) Gecko/20110831 Thunderbird/3.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF WEIRDS Mailing List References: <4E7B05CB.1070905@blacknight.com> <42FE24C5-7A2E-4C46-A1BD-99B0667CF69D@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <42FE24C5-7A2E-4C46-A1BD-99B0667CF69D@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:41:32 -0000 On 22/09/11 12:38, Andy Newton wrote: > Interesting. What's your proposal for the cache busting? We reserve > a query parameter for clients to put in a random value? Yup, that's basically what I'm proposing. I'd propose something that definitely would never appear in a query string otherwise, such as '__weirds__cachebust' or something along those lines. I'd also specify that this is only to be used as a workaround for clients that have to deal with misbehaving HTTP intermediaries. -- Keith Gaughan, Senior Developer PGP/GPG key ID: 3E896381 Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd. 12A Barrowside Business Park, Carlow, Ireland Registered in Ireland, Company No.: 370845 From keith@blacknight.com Thu Sep 22 07:46:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C862821F84D3 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LRvFb6SvNnOb for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.blacknight.com (relay1.blacknight.com [78.153.203.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F86B21F84BA for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hegemon.blacknight.ie (hegemon.blacknight.ie [81.17.243.239]) by relay1.blacknight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D204803BE for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:49:17 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <4E7B4AEC.1020208@blacknight.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:49:16 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Organization: Blacknight Internet Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) Gecko/20110831 Thunderbird/3.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <20816175-4E4C-446B-9916-09B91BF0FF4A@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 14:46:46 -0000 On 22/09/11 12:50, Andy Newton wrote: > However, my biggest question is that if you have taken the time to capture > "restwhois.net" or some other well-known domain name. CenterGate currently have whois-servers.net, which provides the rather useful service of having CNAME records for the various top-level domain pointing at their WHOIS servers. Could we talk to them about using the domain for this purpose? -- Keith Gaughan, Senior Developer PGP/GPG key ID: 3E896381 Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd. 12A Barrowside Business Park, Carlow, Ireland Registered in Ireland, Company No.: 370845 From vesely@tana.it Thu Sep 22 11:01:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157381F0C60 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:01:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.628 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.628 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WuS0+pX6GS5K for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (mail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6BD1F0C5D for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316714652; bh=a9B9IYapuFmXS8CfJnhonl2oeYn8Gw99sFXaFMU8dxA=; l=512; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=czIYaaBFcHy23gnCXyHsZCZ4F3LR4otGS7lCXhGleoi1NsDRUt2yIoyeajVidPo/M CjFeBB0DMqw94+G9saeyuNU9aqbJPI4z5oBhB7oemtElrQlwDx1w1LjxvsPueUE9uL 1pZuzeSoOjj0/NmL9b0JOGjA3lxOHCcAaqcBJ0es= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 20:04:12 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E7B789C.00007CF4 Message-ID: <4E7B789B.3030800@tana.it> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 20:04:11 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.22) Gecko/20110902 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.14 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110922052128.48234.qmail@joyce.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 18:01:42 -0000 On 22/Sep/11 07:21, John Levine wrote: > > You're not thinking like a lazy PHP programmer. Hear, hear. It seems there is a sort of language-divide between the web and email, except for web-mail. PHP and Java, as well as HTTP, are not commonly used for mail filters on traditional SMTP servers, AFAIK. While this shouldn't be a barrier for deployment, it may be worth noting that the kind of client is yet another dimension of the "general case" --besides the kind of underlying database and policies. From johnl@iecc.com Thu Sep 22 17:34:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8878221F8C2A for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F22d232uQncb for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA49621F8C29 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30670 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2011 00:36:35 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2011 00:36:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 93429 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2011 00:36:34 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2011 00:36:34 -0000 Date: 23 Sep 2011 00:36:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 00:34:03 -0000 > For me it wouldn't be very difficult to build a whois server >and even some API in python/java using restful services. Whilst with >DNS, I wouldn't know where to start for the server and for the client >I would use shell scripts (or to dig in some python/java libs). I >guess it is not very different for many others trying to produce/use >data to/from whois. This doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument. There is a lot of DNS server and client libraries and application software available, both commercial and open source, that can do just about anything you can imagine, including fetching responses from databases and synthesizing results on the fly. Personally, I'm much more familiar with DNS software than with web server software, so I don't think we should specify anything that would require that I learn about web servers. It looke like you and I cancel out here. R's, John From aservin@lacnic.net Thu Sep 22 17:50:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5868421F899D for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.214 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.214 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.181, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dKFE04BKGVmE for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7581F0C3C for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (r186-48-223-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [186.48.223.61]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316F730844E; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 21:53:12 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arturo Servin In-Reply-To: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 21:53:10 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> To: "John Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: aservin@lacnic.net Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 00:50:54 -0000 John, =09 I do not have problem to learn DNS tricks and tools. But there = are a lot o people out there more familiar with webservices (thanks to = twitter, google et al.) than with DNS. I would prefer to focus my effort = in the former than in the later. IMHO I think that our effort would have = more probabilities to succeed. /as On 22 Sep 2011, at 21:36, John Levine wrote: >> For me it wouldn't be very difficult to build a whois server >> and even some API in python/java using restful services. Whilst with >> DNS, I wouldn't know where to start for the server and for the client >> I would use shell scripts (or to dig in some python/java libs). I >> guess it is not very different for many others trying to produce/use >> data to/from whois. >=20 > This doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument. There is a lot > of DNS server and client libraries and application software available, > both commercial and open source, that can do just about anything you > can imagine, including fetching responses from databases and > synthesizing results on the fly. >=20 > Personally, I'm much more familiar with DNS software than with web > server software, so I don't think we should specify anything that > would require that I learn about web servers. It looke like you and I > cancel out here. >=20 > R's, > John From carlosm3011@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 07:24:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0A821F8CD2 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Aa8ZRBGPYpok for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com (mail-yi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E8921F8CCD for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yic13 with SMTP id 13so2994834yic.31 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:27:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=onlxIpkvqommgkE41p/YXWsjja9/iMYp3kWpoI4lbJs=; b=Ya4iikYPBbrqTkuZUmMD7eaPMkkpnM/fHZmx0+q9dbhSXmzhKzRMIbxsKDMd9BildW tQ86YhdYgzVRS+DsrMEuraGol3wCkJYgDwZRk+pe+/Ok1LUCRXNiIyIJrNJX2jQ7U4Qe sFbWxOFcb5d2pF+DNOINRvOwTWfxY3lDSsoFI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.62.212 with SMTP id y20mr5055810fah.111.1316788023577; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.14.2 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:27:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:27:03 -0300 Message-ID: From: Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo To: weirds@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: carlos@lacnic.net List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:24:32 -0000 Hi all, Regarding the I-D, I feel that it would be great if we added prefix information to the URI, I think it would open new query possibilities. I imagine something like this: http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/16/registration -> Returns ORG-BIGISP http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/24/registration -> Returns ORG-CUSTOMER-OF-BIGISP This would provide more precise querying in the case of ISPs/LIRs/NIRs subdelegations. Other possibility could be differentiating ip addresses from ip prefixes in the path spec: http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/registration -> Given the example above, the semantics of this operation needs to be further specified. What do we do? Return records for every possible match? Return record for longest matches ? http://restwhois.net/ippfx/192.168.0.0/24 -> Would work in the same way as spec'ed in the example above. I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) regards Carlos On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: > John, > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I do not have problem to learn DNS tricks and tools. But t= here are a lot o people out there more familiar with webservices (thanks to= twitter, google et al.) than with DNS. I would prefer to focus my effort i= n the former than in the later. IMHO I think that our effort would have mor= e probabilities to succeed. > > /as > > On 22 Sep 2011, at 21:36, John Levine wrote: > >>> =A0 =A0 =A0For me it wouldn't be very difficult to build a whois server >>> and even some API in python/java using restful services. Whilst with >>> DNS, I wouldn't know where to start for the server and for the client >>> I would use shell scripts (or to dig in some python/java libs). I >>> guess it is not very different for many others trying to produce/use >>> data to/from whois. >> >> This doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument. =A0There is a lot >> of DNS server and client libraries and application software available, >> both commercial and open source, that can do just about anything you >> can imagine, including fetching responses from databases and >> synthesizing results on the fly. >> >> Personally, I'm much more familiar with DNS software than with web >> server software, so I don't think we should specify anything that >> would require that I learn about web servers. =A0It looke like you and I >> cancel out here. >> >> R's, >> John > > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds > --=20 -- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Carlos M. Martinez-Cagnazzo http://www.labs.lacnic.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From andy@arin.net Fri Sep 23 07:42:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81A921F8AED for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zh3uVPqTeUJx for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.arin.net (smtp1.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2769C21F8A67 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 09D4A16506B; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 10:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp1.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B176A165067; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 10:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.19) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 10:44:49 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH04.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.19]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 10:45:07 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: "" Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAAdQAIAAA7wAgAAIxYCAAASLgIABACEAgAAdpQCAANuBAIAABL0AgADjZoCAAAULAA== Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:45:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2032C3ADA949E748AEA9BF4CA1FC49EA@corp.arin.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:42:54 -0000 On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo wrote: > I imagine something like this: >=20 > http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/16/registration -> Returns ORG-BIGISP >=20 > http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/24/registration -> Returns > ORG-CUSTOMER-OF-BIGISP >=20 > This would provide more precise querying in the case of ISPs/LIRs/NIRs > subdelegations. Arturo and Kaveh and I have been talking about this privately. One design consideration that is not explicitly given, is that all the quer= ies result in either zero or one answer. Once we get into queries that can return multiple answers, issuing redirect= s becomes problematic. That is why I initially shied away from CIDR. However, a network lookup by an IP is the same thing as a network lookup by= a /32 (v4 example obviously). So if we allow CIDR notation and restrict the matching semantics to "most s= pecific network containing" the query target, which is what we have right n= ow with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should return either zer= o or one answer. Does that sound correct? > I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) ... or curl or your web browser. And you also get cut&paste of URLs, etc... The advantages of using web technologies are many. :) -andy= From dave.piscitello@icann.org Fri Sep 23 08:15:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F4121F8CD3 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.316 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.316 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.283, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G+8MgCwIhf5t for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org (expfe100-1.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0265421F8CCE for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.236]) with mapi; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:17:34 -0700 From: Dave Piscitello To: Andy Newton Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:17:35 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: Acx6A+uf4gObIVqiR1KER7/gUkyyMQ== Message-ID: References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:15:01 -0000 On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Andy Newton wrote: >=20 > On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo wrote: >=20 >> I imagine something like this: >>=20 >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/16/registration -> Returns ORG-BIGIS= P >>=20 >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/24/registration -> Returns >> ORG-CUSTOMER-OF-BIGISP >>=20 >> This would provide more precise querying in the case of ISPs/LIRs/NIRs >> subdelegations. >=20 > Arturo and Kaveh and I have been talking about this privately. >=20 > One design consideration that is not explicitly given, is that all the qu= eries result in either zero or one answer. > Once we get into queries that can return multiple answers, issuing redire= cts becomes problematic. That is why I initially shied away from CIDR. >=20 > However, a network lookup by an IP is the same thing as a network lookup = by a /32 (v4 example obviously). > So if we allow CIDR notation and restrict the matching semantics to "most= specific network containing" the query target, which is what we have right= now with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should return either z= ero or one answer. >=20 > Does that sound correct? I like it. >> I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) You set the bar so low. I want a future where clients don't require a QWERT= Y keyboard.= From carlosm3011@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 08:17:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E35721F84BC for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Cp7+6+btczt for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E6321F84B7 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so4151870fxd.31 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:19:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=USYcd1pSaHhhHfAugifiINTQCzEdTdxm0NC/S/tgPvU=; b=A1bUHR3MUV/AEwV5uMVHjec6G9F8N+5OlaZjllLoac+Vby/6w1WbohZg+xf0IcVG65 JJzsfMy73BWl9RzIlLotv2Aa2zNTPTEfRo51LpzKaeaN6aT9qbMquwY2xUUhBrJOZ5j8 yZwnICxSLuk3p+z65FuUxhc3o9A9J2tzNNxl4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.59.136 with SMTP id l8mr5158847fah.54.1316791169349; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: carlosm3011@gmail.com Received: by 10.152.14.2 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:19:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:19:29 -0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4-bgavEUbMJVEyoWLeRVUBOFCJo Message-ID: From: Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo To: Andy Newton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:17:12 -0000 Hi ! (check between lines) On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Andy Newton wrote: > > On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo wrote: > >> I imagine something like this: >> >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/16/registration -> Returns ORG-BIGISP >> >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/24/registration -> Returns >> ORG-CUSTOMER-OF-BIGISP >> >> This would provide more precise querying in the case of ISPs/LIRs/NIRs >> subdelegations. > > Arturo and Kaveh and I have been talking about this privately. > > One design consideration that is not explicitly given, is that all the queries result in either zero or one answer. > Once we get into queries that can return multiple answers, issuing redirects becomes problematic. That is why I initially shied away from CIDR. > > However, a network lookup by an IP is the same thing as a network lookup by a /32 (v4 example obviously). > So if we allow CIDR notation and restrict the matching semantics to "most specific network containing" the query target, which is what we have right now with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should return either zero or one answer. > > Does that sound correct? Yes, it does sound correct to me. I think we should make the semantics as explicit as possible and I also agree with the zero-or-one answer requirement in order to make redirects possible. Let me know if we can help you with the text. > >> I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) > > ... or curl or your web browser. And you also get cut&paste of URLs, etc... > The advantages of using web technologies are many. :) > +1 :-) > -andy > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds > From johnl@iecc.com Fri Sep 23 11:21:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA8D21F85F7 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kiWdYZAAijAK for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEEC221F85A1 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 70025 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2011 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2011 18:24:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 91805 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2011 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2011 18:24:25 -0000 Date: 23 Sep 2011 18:24:03 -0000 Message-ID: <20110923182403.57383.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:21:54 -0000 >So if we allow CIDR notation and restrict the matching semantics to >"most specific network containing" the query target, which is what we >have right now with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should >return either zero or one answer. In my existing web scraping scripts, that's what I do when it returns multiple results, so, yes. R's, John From vesely@tana.it Sat Sep 24 08:38:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B2921F8B04 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.090, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MxAV0ypVMzKj for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5505021F8B03 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:38:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316878868; bh=15xZHIN/IhrmTGew9v2+3rlG9UZ/EaBCeZ8XdsDgVrw=; l=1419; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aqsEMp6D6LQeFIXxJsemmV1Sq+7qltZC5dbr/7Dv7fBT2knZB19+9zc45F4joJWFN bLJnWwO1cM1FDdjnb6XvT0iGLRLexNHEQ0AUPvi4Cg+W/JtUhZIsyWbZiKrj/dPoRA KKR4v7QzKkZTTFv0pDG3peTwJKzp3ALXM4ivGQt0= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:41:08 +0200 id 00000000005DC035.000000004E7DFA14.00006E9D Message-ID: <4E7DFA13.1070709@tana.it> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:41:07 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:38:32 -0000 On 23/Sep/11 16:45, Andy Newton wrote: > > One design consideration that is not explicitly given, is that all > the queries result in either zero or one answer. Once we get into > queries that can return multiple answers, issuing redirects becomes > problematic. That is why I initially shied away from CIDR. > > However, a network lookup by an IP is the same thing as a network > lookup by a /32 (v4 example obviously). So if we allow CIDR > notation and restrict the matching semantics to "most specific > network containing" the query target, which is what we have right > now with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should return > either zero or one answer. > > Does that sound correct? I like it too. However, the zero-or-one rule can be path-specific. Another kind of query, namely rdns, can return a list without compromising overall consistency. BTW, I don't think it is necessary for rdns' argument and results to be in in-addr.arpa format: that only introduces a difficulty when clients have to compare or generate such values. >> I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) > > ... or curl BTW, curl 7.20.0 introduced SMTP support. It is still very basic and buggy compared with how HTTP and FTP are done, but I wouldn't despair. > The advantages of using web technologies are many. :) We should target web and mail usage on equal terms, though. From andy@arin.net Sat Sep 24 08:42:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5B721F87D6 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ez8Any7jG5PR for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8DA21F86A1 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id 18005213687; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:45:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (chaxch05.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.94]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD86F213683; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH05.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:44:42 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:45:03 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Alessandro Vesely Thread-Topic: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 Thread-Index: AQHMeHLDbrQaJCpVvEOuiukRy1alx5VYTm8AgAADrQCAAAdQAIAAA7wAgAAIxYCAAASLgIABACEAgAAdpQCAANuBAIAABL0AgADjZoCAAAULAIABofuAgAABGoA= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:45:03 +0000 Message-ID: <21EB16B9-8194-4A34-9F12-F8E09CBA4CC8@arin.net> References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> <4E7DFA13.1070709@tana.it> In-Reply-To: <4E7DFA13.1070709@tana.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.32.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:42:46 -0000 On Sep 24, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > However, the zero-or-one rule can be path-specific. Another kind of > query, namely rdns, can return a list without compromising overall > consistency. BTW, I don't think it is necessary for rdns' argument > and results to be in in-addr.arpa format: that only introduces a > difficulty when clients have to compare or generate such values. Can you provide examples of what you are talking about here? > We should target web and mail usage on equal terms, though. What do you mean by that? -andy From vesely@tana.it Sat Sep 24 10:22:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7254121F8ADE for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.63 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8dIKCK0hnB50 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (www.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8C321F8ACA for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:22:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1316885102; bh=agxXP+pyoMSAmulzHsTX73Y+Ly2JAVvULZGvRmWUjN8=; l=2216; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=W2Kv8U29nU0xrv+U7Z36XSIlBAI7Z1gUYHKhjpeZJzYhYwkYFdwRzzMku1Ds3Omio L7I3edObzyGc44+Mn0GSD3LZUD+SCCojTE0B1L4ctvKTuV/R8W+nckxxAlg1tGW8Zv k5KgIC4aIDyDgKuSyG8MXJQiYBde74tzkOf//u1Y= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:25:02 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E7E126E.00004E27 Message-ID: <4E7E126D.40503@tana.it> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:25:01 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> <4E7DFA13.1070709@tana.it> <21EB16B9-8194-4A34-9F12-F8E09CBA4CC8@arin.net> In-Reply-To: <21EB16B9-8194-4A34-9F12-F8E09CBA4CC8@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:22:26 -0000 On 24/Sep/11 17:45, Andy Newton wrote: > On Sep 24, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > >> However, the zero-or-one rule can be path-specific. Another kind of >> query, namely rdns, can return a list without compromising overall >> consistency. BTW, I don't think it is necessary for rdns' argument >> and results to be in in-addr.arpa format: that only introduces a >> difficulty when clients have to compare or generate such values. > > Can you provide examples of what you are talking about here? Sure. To get the delegation chain I'd use get http://restwhois.net/rdns/192.0.2.87 instead of the "in-addr.arpa format" get http://restwhois.net/rdns/87.2.0.192.in-addr.arpa I'd imagine the answer --in plain text, for simplicity-- can be something like this: 192.0.2.87 192.0.2.80/26 192.0.2.0/24 Now I can take any element from the list, for example the second, and use it as a link to an operator query get http://restwhois.net/ip/192.0.2.80/26/operator The other way around, I start with, say, get http://restwhois.net/ip/192.0.2.87/contacts/abuse and get inetnum: 192.0.2.80/26 email: abuse@example.org Assume I'm not satisfied with this, e.g. because abuse@example.org bounces. To get it's next-level-up contact I can use the inetnum from the result, or the same IP I started with. That is, I'd query respectively get http://restwhois.net/rdns/192.0.2.80/26 (which I'd imagine returns just two items), or get http://restwhois.net/rdns/192.0.2.87 In the latter case I can reckon that the sought item must be the third, but may still want to check that the second item compares equal to the inetnum returned on the previous query. If the other format is used, both comparison and argument passing require an extra variable where the bytes are reversed and ".in-addr.arpa" appended, a a function that is cumbersome and error-prone to write if it's not provided in the environment. >> We should target web and mail usage on equal terms, though. > > What do you mean by that? If we assume that clients operate in typical web environments, we may come up with solutions that are hard to deploy for mail filters. From carlos@lacnic.net Fri Sep 23 08:12:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEADE21F8C9B for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1XQdJ7cBfSH for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lacnic.net.uy (mail.lacnic.net.uy [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:4000::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED34F21F8C98 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:54ce:7b37:877e:255d] (unknown [IPv6:2001:13c7:7001:5128:54ce:7b37:877e:255d]) by mail.lacnic.net.uy (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53BB308446; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:15:21 -0300 (UYT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Carlos M. Martinez" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:15:21 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <80C89A3F-B6CE-45FF-8039-64385C2FB4AD@lacnic.net> References: <20110923003612.64561.qmail@joyce.lan> <904CE8EE-D61F-48BE-9DE0-8A66B80428E7@lacnic.net> To: Andy Newton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-LACNIC.uy-MailScanner-From: carlos@lacnic.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:25:41 -0700 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] draft-newton-et-al-weirds-rir-query-00 X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:12:52 -0000 Hi ! (look between lines):=20 On Sep 23, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Andy Newton wrote: >=20 > On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Carlos Martinez-Cagnazzo wrote: >=20 >> I imagine something like this: >>=20 >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/16/registration -> Returns = ORG-BIGISP >>=20 >> http://restwhois.net/ip/192.168.0.0/24/registration -> Returns >> ORG-CUSTOMER-OF-BIGISP >>=20 >> This would provide more precise querying in the case of = ISPs/LIRs/NIRs >> subdelegations. >=20 > Arturo and Kaveh and I have been talking about this privately. >=20 > One design consideration that is not explicitly given, is that all the = queries result in either zero or one answer. > Once we get into queries that can return multiple answers, issuing = redirects becomes problematic. That is why I initially shied away from = CIDR. >=20 > However, a network lookup by an IP is the same thing as a network = lookup by a /32 (v4 example obviously). > So if we allow CIDR notation and restrict the matching semantics to = "most specific network containing" the query target, which is what we = have right now with IP addresses, I think this will work. That should = return either zero or one answer. >=20 > Does that sound correct? Yes, that sounds correct to me. And the requirement of zero -or-one = answer sounds also right to me. >=20 >> I like a future where wget is the only client I need :-) >=20 > ... or curl or your web browser. And you also get cut&paste of URLs, = etc... > The advantages of using web technologies are many. :) >=20 +1 :-) > -andy From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Sep 29 07:16:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C9C21F8DE9 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8NlZ9oOXuTIg for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0729F21F8DEA for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58A061ECB420 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:19:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:19:18 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: weirds@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:16:33 -0000 --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear colleagues, I'm attaching a proposed draft WG charter and a possible agenda for a BOF in Taipei. Some of you may recall that we had hoped after Quebec to make greater progress than we have. For my part, I have let down my end of the log, due to some personal issues that cropped up at the end of the Quebec IETF meeting. The deadline for BOF requests is on Monday. I already sent a note to the Apps ADs warning them that a BOF request will be coming. I'd like to propose the following as an agenda, and the attached draft charter, when I make the request. Both of these are totally tentative, however, and I'd appreciate feedback, additions, alterations, and deletions. Remember that the deadline for the BOF request is Monday. These documents don't need to be final when that request is made -- we can continue work on the list here prior to the IETF meeting -- but I'd like to be able to demonstrate engagement and activity. Apart from the activity we already see on the list, discussion about these two administrative details will provide evidence of an engaged community that will create an effective working group. Therefore, the sooner you can get your comments in, the better. Best regards, A Proposed agenda (1 hour): 0. Agenda bashing. 1. A very quick review of the background. 2. A pointer to the drafts about actual deployments, but not discussion of these. 3. A very quick overview of the then-extant requirements draft. 4. Questions for discussion (at least 30 mins): a. Is this a problem to be solved? b. Is the problem statement in the proposed charter clear enough? c. Do we think we can solve the problem? d. Are there people willing to work on the problem? -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="wierds-charter-20110929a.txt" WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service (weirds) ------------------------------------------------------------------ DRAFT Charter v 2011-09-29a Chairs: TBD Internet Area Directors: TBD (aimed at APPSAREA) Description of Working Group: Internet registries for both numbers and names have historically maintained a lookup service to permit public access to some of the registry database. Most registries offer the service via WHOIS (RFC 3912), with additional services being offered via world wide web pages, bulk downloads, and other services like RPSL (RFC 2622). A conspicuous problem with WHOIS is that it has never been internationalized. It also has no data model at all: WHOIS replies are basically just free-form text. Finally, WHOIS does not offer any differential service; it cannot differentiate among clients and offer different information to different classes of user. Various attempts to solve limitations of WHOIS have met with mixed success. The most recent of these was IRIS (RFC 3891). While there are parts of IRIS that have been widely deployed, as a replacement for WHOIS it has not been a success. The primary reasons for this appear to be the complexity of IRIS, the fact that it has its own control part, and that it requires implementers to understand the details of the transport it is using. In response to these facts, some registries have deployed experimental services that provide the registration information services traditionally offered via WHOIS, using a RESTful approach to data delivery over the web. Three such efforts have been undertaken, and more may be anticipated in response to the increased deployment of IDNA. The Working Group shall undertake to document the existing efforts, to determine the general needs of such a service; and to standardize a data format, to be delivered via a RESTful data service using HTTP (optionally using TLS). The overall effort will be broadly aligned with the Cross Registry Internet Service Protocol (CRISP) Requirements (RFC 3707), but with the explicit additional goal of producing a simple, easy-to-implement protocol that is to be deployed via REST. In addition, the following three priorities take precedence over others: 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries (i.e. to indicate language preferences for responses) and responses. 2. A rigorous machine-friendly data model that allows for the (current) developments of innovations in TLDs and in number registries. 3. Support for differential service levels, including bulk access, according to different classes of user. It is expected that more than one data profile will need to be developed to be used in different service environments (e.g. number registry versus name registry). The base specification shall include an extension mechanism to permit future developments in the served registries. One possible outcome of the requirements development stage will be that the WG concludes that using one protocol for name and number registries is an error, in which case two different but probably basically similar protocols will be developed. Milestones [TBD] Drafts outlining existing deployments to IESG for publication as Informational RFCs. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS base specification to IESG for publication on the standards track. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS object specifications to IESG for publication on the standards track. --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- From dave.piscitello@icann.org Thu Sep 29 08:02:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8656421F8C80 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:02:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VuE1N7hdOOun for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org (expfe100-2.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABA421F8C6C for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.237]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:05:17 -0700 From: Dave Piscitello To: Andrew Sullivan Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:05:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei Thread-Index: Acx+uTKYOwljW/C3SJGBBD3EGfiQ9Q== Message-ID: <02E394D0-A987-4CDA-AF5E-F6A424E43E24@icann.org> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-pgp-agent: GPGMail 1.3.3 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:02:30 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think the charter reads well. I have a few comments: "While there are parts of IRIS that have been widely deployed, as a replacement for WHOIS it has not been a success. " Not certain why we'd need to say more than=20 "IRIS has not been a success as a replacement for WHOIS". "The Working Group shall undertake to document the existing efforts, to determine the general needs of such a service; and to standardize a data format" Does this mean the group will come up with a single data format?=20 Last point. Is it worth mentioning anything about the problems ad hoc solut= ions to accommodate internationalized registration data using Whois create?= Server specific signaling, widely varying response formats, and error repo= rting already inhibit legitimate automation. None of these scale well today= and will only become worse. While I concede that it's not possible to supp= ress ad hoc efforts, providing a scalable solution offers a practical alter= native. On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > I'm attaching a proposed draft WG charter and a possible agenda for a > BOF in Taipei. Some of you may recall that we had hoped after Quebec > to make greater progress than we have. For my part, I have let down > my end of the log, due to some personal issues that cropped up at the > end of the Quebec IETF meeting. >=20 > The deadline for BOF requests is on Monday. I already sent a note to > the Apps ADs warning them that a BOF request will be coming. I'd like > to propose the following as an agenda, and the attached draft charter, > when I make the request. Both of these are totally tentative, > however, and I'd appreciate feedback, additions, alterations, and > deletions. >=20 > Remember that the deadline for the BOF request is Monday. These > documents don't need to be final when that request is made -- we can > continue work on the list here prior to the IETF meeting -- but I'd > like to be able to demonstrate engagement and activity. Apart from > the activity we already see on the list, discussion about these two > administrative details will provide evidence of an engaged community > that will create an effective working group. Therefore, the sooner > you can get your comments in, the better. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 > Proposed agenda (1 hour): >=20 > 0. Agenda bashing. >=20 > 1. A very quick review of the background. >=20 > 2. A pointer to the drafts about actual deployments, but not = discussion of these. = =20 > 3. A very quick overview of the then-extant requirements draft. = =20 >=20 > 4. Questions for discussion (at least 30 mins): = =20 > a. Is this a problem to be solved? = =20 > b. Is the problem statement in the proposed charter clear = enough? = =20 > c. Do we think we can solve the problem? = =20 > d. Are there people willing to work on the problem? =20 >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > ___________________________________________= ____ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOhIksAAoJEGwWiPOSXEFNnHAH/iZnWeJkQdGmuQ+2ezEWQLSW u/tMJ84ABHqWXglx+EKpkCIE4uNIODJW+kDwkSUT93p9DKKItYmMiZ62P/l5yZF2 nO1Mi01tPQvSmSsMWIGAVsB1OJ13sb8Px7Ya+Q/Ina+XhuXET+sdggUjxpChGr1W dFw6oTYNIYscPKrW34Hrq0Awdhvye9J7wWtBzntvNcJT4RiOY1aOL5kam5hT7fSZ G6KHLMyG6zEabnQNalKXKEqChuUNmiILeGK8DpJWnWyee8OCnZEFSsEalElPPOUe 4pnxnCD7DUunBvhPe+qDZym143KQ0kiv0Zpiu3sxwfgAg4+XgOM3aBBJSQ+MqeU=3D =3Dr7dH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Sep 29 08:32:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F20421F8C97 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rT4tXTeSeljf for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36DB21F8C4E for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E93A1ECB41C; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:35:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:35:40 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Dave Piscitello Message-ID: <20110929153540.GG29036@shinkuro.com> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <02E394D0-A987-4CDA-AF5E-F6A424E43E24@icann.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02E394D0-A987-4CDA-AF5E-F6A424E43E24@icann.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:32:52 -0000 On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 08:05:12AM -0700, Dave Piscitello wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > "While there are parts of IRIS that have been widely deployed, as a > replacement for WHOIS it has not been a success. " > > Not certain why we'd need to say more than > > "IRIS has not been a success as a replacement for WHOIS". That's ok with me. > > "The Working Group shall undertake to document the existing > efforts, to determine the general needs of such a service; and to > standardize a data format" > > Does this mean the group will come up with a single data format? There's a later paragraph that suggests it might even be a wholly different protocol. I can see this needs more work, though, so I'll see how I can stitch them together better. > Last point. Is it worth mentioning anything about the problems ad hoc solutions to accommodate internationalized registration data using Whois create? Server specific signaling, widely varying response formats, and error reporting already inhibit legitimate automation. None of these scale well today and will only become worse. While I concede that it's not possible to suppress ad hoc efforts, providing a scalable solution offers a practical alternative. > Hrm. Probably. Suggested text? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From johnl@iecc.com Thu Sep 29 09:17:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59EDE21F8B83 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1KwnMCUhP3Ft for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95A721F8B80 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31338 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2011 16:20:20 -0000 Received: from gal.iecc.com (64.57.183.53) by mail2.iecc.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 2011 16:20:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 93333 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2011 16:20:20 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 29 Sep 2011 16:20:20 -0000 Date: 29 Sep 2011 16:19:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: weirds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:17:31 -0000 From: John Levine To: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei In-Reply-To: <20110929153540.GG29036@shinkuro.com> Organization: Cc: ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Bcc: johnl-sent X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> Does this mean the group will come up with a single data format? I understood it to be a single metaformat or framework, e.g., everyone might use the same tag/data format, although the dictionary of tags would change by application. >> Last point. Is it worth mentioning anything about the problems ad >hoc solutions to accommodate internationalized registration data >using Whois create? Perhaps change point 1 to something like this: 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries and responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate language preferences for responses. It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 everywhere, give or take some rules about when to use U-labels or A-labels. R's, John From andy@arin.net Thu Sep 29 09:29:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D1C21F8CBB for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fb2WTuBXXto2 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.arin.net (smtp2.arin.net [IPv6:2001:500:4:13::32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7600121F8E50 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix, from userid 323) id D57E3213669; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (chaxch06.corp.arin.net [192.149.252.95]) by smtp2.arin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E718213629; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net (10.1.30.17) by CHAXCH06.corp.arin.net (192.149.252.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:32:01 -0400 Received: from CHAXCH02.corp.arin.net ([169.254.2.146]) by CHAXCH03.corp.arin.net ([10.1.30.17]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:32:13 -0400 From: Andy Newton To: Andrew Sullivan Thread-Topic: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei Thread-Index: AQHMfrLNQDpt2bxrpUaEFpye7Ig1t5Vk0EoA Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:32:02 +0000 Message-ID: <76A74427-E15A-4741-9450-285D35C20E94@arin.net> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.0.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:29:25 -0000 Maybe this is being nitpicky... On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > 2. A pointer to the drafts about actual deployments, but not = discussion of these. =20 Would this also include the newest draft by Arturo, Kaveh, and I? That draft helps to answer the question about people willing to work on thi= s. -andy= From msk@cloudmark.com Thu Sep 29 10:06:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9541E11E8080 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id isp-tejheYXz for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391EB11E8073 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by spite.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.72]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:08:56 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:08:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei Thread-Index: Acx+w7fXizoEhvVnRnC8O4fVNJZwqwABrD6g Message-ID: References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:06:05 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: weirds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of John Levine > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:20 AM > To: weirds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei >=20 > >> Does this mean the group will come up with a single data format? >=20 > I understood it to be a single metaformat or framework, e.g., everyone > might use the same tag/data format, although the dictionary of tags > would change by application. Ditto. > >> Last point. Is it worth mentioning anything about the problems ad > >hoc solutions to accommodate internationalized registration data > >using Whois create? >=20 > Perhaps change point 1 to something like this: >=20 > 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries and > responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and > non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate > language preferences for responses. >=20 > It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 everywhere, > give or take some rules about when to use U-labels or A-labels. Works for me. -MSK From msk@cloudmark.com Thu Sep 29 10:10:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C5D21F8CC4 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.377, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B2lw2YaaCVKh for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com (ht2-outbound.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5709821F8CBD for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.1.74]) by spite.corp.cloudmark.com ([172.22.10.72]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:12:43 -0700 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "weirds@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:12:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei Thread-Index: Acx+stGBgigbBsadS9CwJ4iiIO5kTwAGAGkg Message-ID: References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:10:24 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: weirds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 7:19 AM > To: weirds@ietf.org > Subject: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei >=20 > I'm attaching a proposed draft WG charter and a possible agenda for a > BOF in Taipei. [...] Modulo my other comments to the list in a separate message, the charter loo= ks like a decent starting point to me. -MSK From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Sep 29 11:17:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA6D21F8C22 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HITDt02fObFS for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554EB21F8C20 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3D031ECB41C; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:20:18 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Andy Newton Message-ID: <20110929182018.GL29036@shinkuro.com> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <76A74427-E15A-4741-9450-285D35C20E94@arin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <76A74427-E15A-4741-9450-285D35C20E94@arin.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "" Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:17:31 -0000 On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 04:32:02PM +0000, Andy Newton wrote: > Maybe this is being nitpicky... > > On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > > 2. A pointer to the drafts about actual deployments, but not discussion of these. > > Would this also include the newest draft by Arturo, Kaveh, and I? > That draft helps to answer the question about people willing to work on this. Yes. The point is just that the BOF won't get into details of proposals, but rather tackle whether we have a problem to solve & whether we will. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From vesely@tana.it Thu Sep 29 11:57:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B839921F8C6A for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lvAlAkdSvWhG for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF22A21F8C5A for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=test; t=1317322794; bh=/woLiLergV2rNjTRsNPmFvBX9tA6ctKJAfbkgzi7hdI=; l=677; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FhWpf2aj5pLrUbsx5oT9ZNJoRBSXlJ9iw24rjAFQQ/XHit6sdMR0YJuStNQ1uhL46 3/R9kcGQbYBCKPFj58C344eEVKnGLU+1T+EUx6gVKSeVP2+kZc3I9Ub3thdiTjOssF J8F3+NS9pW+/Fzzg2pUShdpE1iePa9jh7klafbqg= Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 515, TLS: TLS1.0,256bits,RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPSA; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:59:54 +0200 id 00000000005DC039.000000004E84C02A.00003B6F Message-ID: <4E84C02A.7090101@tana.it> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:59:54 +0200 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weirds@ietf.org References: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:57:04 -0000 On 29/Sep/11 18:19, John Levine wrote: > > Perhaps change point 1 to something like this: > > 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries and > responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and > non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate > language preferences for responses. > > It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 everywhere, > give or take some rules about when to use U-labels or A-labels. Couldn't the "language preferences" be expressed in terms of charsets as well? I don't think we need to distinguish between en-UK and en-US, albeit most of us would prefer ASCII over Greek if available. From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Sep 29 12:06:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F4421F8F52 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wDYDtaD04xyY for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7676221F8F50 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 900D21ECB41C for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:09:00 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:09:03 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: weirds@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110929190903.GN29036@shinkuro.com> References: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> <4E84C02A.7090101@tana.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E84C02A.7090101@tana.it> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:06:15 -0000 On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 08:59:54PM +0200, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > > Perhaps change point 1 to something like this: > > > > 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries and > > responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and > > non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate > > language preferences for responses. > > > > It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 everywhere, > > give or take some rules about when to use U-labels or A-labels. > > Couldn't the "language preferences" be expressed in terms of charsets > as well? I don't think we need to distinguish between en-UK and > en-US, albeit most of us would prefer ASCII over Greek if available. Perhaps "language or character set preferences for responses. One of the tasks of the WG will be to determine whether language, character set, or both is the correct granularity to use."? I'm currently doing some work for ICANN on their variant issues project, and I have to say that this topic is an even bigger swamp than I thought it was going in, so I do think some consideration is going to be important here. At bottom, though, we're going to want to decide whether we want to use language tags or whether we just want to indicate what script(s) we can handle. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@crankycanuck.ca From dave.piscitello@icann.org Thu Sep 29 12:19:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446EF21F8EFA for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.41 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.41 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.189, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZlUyzVitR9R5 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org (expfe100-2.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B89E21F8EF9 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.237]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:21:52 -0700 From: Dave Piscitello To: Andrew Sullivan Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 12:21:47 -0700 Thread-Topic: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei Thread-Index: Acx+3Qr3+m63UO6YSxyAD1pSOgCvJg== Message-ID: <63A39E1A-6080-443D-9CB6-361FC192FF24@icann.org> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <02E394D0-A987-4CDA-AF5E-F6A424E43E24@icann.org> <20110929153540.GG29036@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20110929153540.GG29036@shinkuro.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-pgp-agent: GPGMail 1.3.3 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:19:02 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 29, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 08:05:12AM -0700, Dave Piscitello wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>=20 >> Last point. Is it worth mentioning anything about the problems ad hoc so= lutions to accommodate internationalized registration data using Whois crea= te? Server specific signaling, widely varying response formats, and error r= eporting already inhibit legitimate automation. None of these scale well to= day and will only become worse. While I concede that it's not possible to s= uppress ad hoc efforts, providing a scalable solution offers a practical al= ternative. I'll rephrase what I wrote: Follow=20 "A conspicuous problem with WHOIS is that it has never been internationaliz= ed. "=20 with "In the absence of formal specification, ad hoc solutions to signal interna= tionalized registration data have and continue to be adopted to accommodate= local language user needs. The current collection of Whois service specifi= c signaling, widely varying response formats, and error reporting already i= nhibits legitimate automation. Dealing with internationalization in this ma= nner does not scale well today and will only become worse. Providing a stan= dards-base solution that scales well could minimize further proliferation o= f ad hoc solutions." [That may be too wordy, feel free to modify] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOhMVPAAoJEGwWiPOSXEFNBHwIAKQ9BQoD7EJiJQ95FxnvxdTL vgq5xGvdCzXv6rVHTQs76G51PB7pFfkGW5fzh1BCMtn7kWBOEu7cow8Qq9A+v7rp tLHkQj49ZqxEEL+AIGtprVkhGUGYfZ/BoLsK4bHSgIR7ZC/FY7WaBpQk0KY5YoxQ rtwLfLfu/kQvNIqCAqn+Nsu0vMX3tZqw8g/BpIh6mDfwlKhgH88ZB6yCVK2ELAJl Gnz2TZ3FnuGOmtTvjDJhCGPZfaaVxLXiVDpjexJW8XOzs++B47hnXdmgkpk07nmd /D3t/D/QSRKnbgNGEJb43ChGto9VetqwVsr9p3LgSkuTOBd6AzMjsShtCdMzY74=3D =3DtRJw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Fri Sep 30 09:18:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC7421F8CEE for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yTDvTB4psrBg for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACF121F8CEA for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 501381ECB41C for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:20:59 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: weirds@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110930162058.GE37386@shinkuro.com> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:18:08 -0000 --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear colleagues, On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:19:18AM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I'm attaching a proposed draft WG charter and a possible agenda for a Here is a new draft charter based on the feedback from yesterday. I plan to use this in a BOF request I plan to make later today, unless there are objections. Thanks for the quick comments! Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="wierds-charter-20110930a.txt" WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service (weirds) ------------------------------------------------------------------ DRAFT Charter v 2011-09-30a Chairs: TBD Internet Area Directors: Pete Resnick & Peter Saint-Andre Description of Working Group: Internet registries for both numbers and names have historically maintained a lookup service to permit public access to some of the registry database. Most registries offer the service via WHOIS (RFC 3912), with additional services being offered via world wide web pages, bulk downloads, and other services like RPSL (RFC 2622). A conspicuous problem with WHOIS is that it has never been internationalized. In the absence of formal specification, ad hoc solutions to signal internationalized registration data have been adopted and deployed. The current collection of WHOIS service specific signalling, widely varying response formats, and error reporting already inhibits automatic processing of WHOIS output. Providing a standards-base solution that scales well could minimize further proliferation of ad hoc solutions. WHOIS also has no data model at all: replies are basically just free-form text. This means that processing of WHOIS output amounts to "screen-scraping", with specialized handlers for every service. Finally, WHOIS does not offer any differential service; it cannot differentiate among clients and offer different information to different classes of user. Various attempts to solve limitations of WHOIS have met with mixed success. The most recent of these was IRIS (RFC 3891). IRIS has not been a successful replacement for WHOIS. The primary reasons for this appear to be the complexity of IRIS, the fact that it has its own control part, and that it requires implementers to understand the details of the transport it is using. In response to these facts, some registries have deployed experimental services that provide the registration information services traditionally offered via WHOIS, using a RESTful approach to data delivery over the web. Three such efforts have been undertaken, and more may be anticipated in response to the increased deployment of IDNA. The Working Group shall undertake to document the existing efforts, to determine the general needs of such a service; and to standardize a single data framework, to be delivered via a RESTful data service using HTTP (optionally using TLS). The overall effort will be broadly aligned with the Cross Registry Internet Service Protocol (CRISP) Requirements (RFC 3707), but with the explicit additional goal of producing a simple, easy-to-implement protocol that is to be deployed via REST. In addition, the following three priorities take precedence over others: 1. Complete support for internationalization of queries and responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate language or character set preferences for responses. The Working Group will need to determine whether language or character set (or both) is an appropriate selector. 2. A rigorous machine-friendly data model that allows for the (current) developments of innovations in TLDs and in number registries. 3. Support for differential service levels, including bulk access, according to different classes of user. It is expected that more than one data profile will need to be developed to be used in different service environments (e.g. number registry versus name registry). The base specification shall include an extension mechanism to permit future developments in the served registries. One possible outcome of the requirements development stage will be that the WG concludes that using one protocol for name and number registries is an error, in which case two different but probably basically similar protocols will be developed. Milestones [TBD] Drafts outlining existing deployments to IESG for publication as Informational RFCs. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS base specification to IESG for publication on the standards track. [TBD] Draft WEIRDS object specifications to IESG for publication on the standards track. --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- From hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com Fri Sep 30 09:42:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EC821F8AFE for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GCwp0TDx0Z8f for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D73C21F8AA9 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwf22 with SMTP id 22so2098390wwf.13 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:45:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6dWLqk+Qn0aosMOXlCJVUhW9/gd7FV+6nKRD0GpQf7c=; b=ZzMWTPSE5eEQy7I742gAfbHr17O3oUM5UfK+/aZz7WLdSP0AGxWa2+WRnrT3+Oq2kc 1crmTlkNdfvJc6x3wnKv1howZjXYPTQGZixexcaoj1zLtroEZoQTejhGrlFrmUjVRlas RIOYmJrFwI5FBYoG/1KwD3mfRKRFTvCWuSPlI= Received: by 10.227.11.81 with SMTP id s17mr3011253wbs.62.1317401117066; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:45:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.80.134 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 18:44:37 +0200 Message-ID: To: John Levine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:42:24 -0000 On 29 September 2011 18:19, John Levine wrote: > =A01. =A0Complete support for internationalization of queries and > =A0 =A0responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and > =A0 =A0non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indicate > =A0 =A0language preferences for responses. > It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 > everywhere, give or take some rules about when to use U-labels > or A-labels. Folks wanting "language negotiation" should use a Web interface, HTTP supports this. For WHOIS it would be an obscure hack, e.g., "add /e when talking with JPNIC, add -Tdn,ace when talking with DENIC, do something when talking with RIPE," etc. ad nauseam. This just does not scale for the thousands of gTLDs presumably starting next year. Otherwise WHOIS i18n is as you said very simple, just use NET UTF-8 (=3D RFC 5198), and let the servers automatically handle A/U-label in queries and offer both forms in responses. IMO a WG Charter only needs a pointer to RFC 5198 wrt i18n, all technical details are then almost obvious. And the most convoluted i18n interface doesn't help me to get a technical contact for say domain arbeitssocke.de abused in some Amazon phishing if the response is like this: % Error: 55000000002 Connection refused; access control limit exceeded Needless to say that this was my first query today (=3D "this IP"), and manually using the alternative Web interface with a captcha and some "EULA" is excessively hostile to legit users. -Frank From johnl@iecc.com Fri Sep 30 09:56:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: weirds@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D860C21F8C36 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:56:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xx0P5DybzPP9 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F259621F8C34 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 86200 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2011 16:59:13 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=150b7.4e85f561.k1109; bh=KIKYqVK7HUB7Ip/3Ysd9edE+7aHpxqX5EwObP488m58=; b=AOT1UBscF0NtIvMDyGzihEAfp5S8PV8+fQOG2ak+J1TwE7Fxfi1dYDEyNQBF4DkTAv5xxCV0f4IOULmumu6yU3f5S8eUnuhKE+oQyF3JgV4Nr4h3Tys23KcDl5aN4xmW72q61SPONdYQZBjyUNNj0TG5HGDIw4KvULY2xWaa9T8= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 30 Sep 2011 16:58:51 -0000 Date: 30 Sep 2011 12:59:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Frank Ellermann" In-Reply-To: References: <20110929141918.GD29036@shinkuro.com> <20110929161958.93766.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="3825401791-616112120-1317401953=:53970" Cc: weirds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [weirds] Basis for BOF request for Taipei X-BeenThere: weirds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "WHOIS-based Extensible Internet Registration Data Service \(WEIRDS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:56:21 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --3825401791-616112120-1317401953=:53970 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE >> =C2=A01. =C2=A0Complete support for internationalization of queries and >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0responses, including a standard representation for IDNs and >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0non-ASCII text in queries and responses, and ways to indica= te >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0language preferences for responses. ... > >> It seems to me that the likely outcome there is use UTF-8 >> everywhere, give or take some rules about when to use U-labels >> or A-labels. > > Folks wanting "language negotiation" should use a Web interface, > HTTP supports this. Good point. If we do some REST-ish thing, it'd probably be fine to tell=20 people to put their language tags in the http query. If we do something=20 else, extra hackery may be needed. Either way, I think it would be a good= =20 idea to say that all responses must be in RFC 5198 network Unicode. > And the most convoluted i18n interface doesn't help me to get a > technical contact for say domain arbeitssocke.de abused in some > Amazon phishing if the response is like this: > > % Error: 55000000002 Connection refused; access control limit exceeded We all have the same problem, but it does not work for an RFC to say "you= =20 MUST return data that you don't want to return." Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummi= es", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly --3825401791-616112120-1317401953=:53970--