From nobody Thu Jun 10 05:40:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wpack@ietf.org Delivered-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359213A11AA; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:40:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: francesca.palombini@ericsson.com, sean@sn3rd.com, wpack-chairs@ietf.org, wpack@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.31.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <162332881014.1576.10812111327998975513@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:40:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Wpack] wpack - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: wpack@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Web Packaging List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:40:10 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Sean Turner, a Chair of the wpack working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Web Packaging Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Sean Turner Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: quic mls tls dprive dnsop add wish rtcweb Technology Overlap: httpbis dispatch secdispatch saag acme People who must be present: Sean Turner Murray Kucherawy Francesca Palombini tale Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jun 10 05:47:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592663A1251 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TA-pLrk7bjeL for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA7113A123D for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id o19so2729226qtp.5 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=9ofw8VmDxB0oard2cgEsEfhry1OjyQEc8Qot3dPAOls=; b=ki5dkHSnBGQQp/nemcVSiZrGAPGdGseLNBfPUAQ4tL3CWErXSlFEQaIr3KF2bK0EJl zhpHJX7JFTx1xta/0CJDiZ2qpFieCvKLD150wojt6KcLJaHEg3OU6+ODvE/yXHOkN+zQ I/dUFRnKHGRwN8CbkLiRhsBgESly/4GX4wDL8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=9ofw8VmDxB0oard2cgEsEfhry1OjyQEc8Qot3dPAOls=; b=ArjDUKDniOWjr98kKRt43z9f0ptP6g//liB3ePun6lvPMEmrJHtldtEareRl7pl6co m8+KLj0Lx2ExTd07lP+UIQ4R12Ilh0l5QOqCU9+Ty5Bga0qJcCklfWnehL67hBJshn5u a6zXEIPOWUnKuRYA3pV9Rud1PnytTlup+rYsb+M+FA3QmP2o5tYtgizLYJ6xvtobNRYn cjS9BXfv8rT2PQAMcdSDrQ7xyM2ehRQRvftdxp+Oz509eZYWcZ0MNyUxXRQaRnXCocNJ mudS2EbJPR6bwAIAu3G0QypMhaSae7xvALH8+jnfn6hEaxn/1y81WX8kfDDYR6GdJmI5 SORQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530G4UTnpPB9PJWY5TzB9G1Xi/7J8tbqJqrKNCR1BN4Vao4PcZoJ n0UcCe3D9PCxEX/l/GO4USlRxq5CT07tmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypznLVE/E7Tr398Vz/f1LrzAoLBsjqt+DYvfn7SH74H4hApX0p0TQ+1UbnG1wzTb9mPyrIlA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5b81:: with SMTP id a1mr4882005qta.172.1623329239099; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (pool-71-178-177-131.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [71.178.177.131]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24sm2216305qtm.70.2021.06.10.05.47.18 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:47:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 08:47:16 -0400 To: WPACK List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Wpack] WPACK@IETF111 X-BeenThere: wpack@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Web Packaging List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:47:26 -0000 Hi! After discussion with Dave, I went ahead and requested a 1-hour slot = for IETF 111. Start contemplating those agenda topics. Cheers, spt= From nobody Tue Jun 22 06:56:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF573A260D for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wMyrizJ31hjA for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F08FD3A260B for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id j184so39686457qkd.6 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OIWpBf8gzEN3kOSErOxOz/ymEAztoPBeIsKQYSsVowI=; b=PpK+mQvanTUX/v4ixBgxRRJBMRNFG+Bk8vhyujNyn2BCS8sPmCNLoDlbj/bLRt0YMh BP8whWkg4T4NI87OJVzQsKrd87Op9pXo6je09Ow6ubybu5kZT/QLSVTW2OfT/PNBoyY7 AE1H47aAXT7dNLPowfzoNnQWSLK1TWY1Ay2ABrKlmMjgqw9QXwiUh3B/EstiVpFFXqz1 SKqKxW3bde4jIOEs/35G4eHj6ta9PS5cnew7W5aYwXUPe0xc5vUAAysJ+AWKdy5/so5H zqUjsNiqPElOlc/fb3kgS1cTCC8e+QaGwLQnXrmIpDzEp4ikO5BccSM6dIFwLDcISi3K 0eVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531gv8fNtKdZWUj64msy1vJBNYXE53wF4hKzTDjGVHDF3yTKIxiH kItdR96oTRYCdLFcuDg9CoxjISEM3L+mYBeyz06Hcvx+Vd70Gg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwK9clpF3gmdF8wk/SkwTT/2RKxhS7K0h7VzKQ9AJVHY/keL38XPwaA8LaGWGZU4J6A4ReiZOa7yoNsEy3oAL4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:688c:: with SMTP id d134mr5406894ybc.523.1624370153762; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:55:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:55:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: WPACK List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ffb2c405c55b25bf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Wpack] wpack@ietf110: minutes posted X-BeenThere: wpack@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Web Packaging List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:55:59 -0000 --000000000000ffb2c405c55b25bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the minutes Daniel Ehrenberg: The motivation for removing some of these features is to reduce the scope to increase the adoption. There is particular concern around how content-blockers will work in this context. Martin Thomson: I think this is the right sort of thing to be thinking about right now. But a narrowly targeted thing is more likely to be successful here. If we cut a little too deep, we always have the opportunity to define something more specific later, possibly with a different MIME type. People keep saying this in IETF and I have yet to see evidence for the claim. Deployment depends on two things, first cost of implementation, second the utility of the product. Fewer features means lower cost but it also means lower incentive to deploy. There are good reasons to keep a tight hand on features, but deployment isn't one of them. Forcing people to think at a higher level and produce a more flexible product is the reason I object to niche features that fail to extend to wider use. I designed, implemented and specified DARE by myself in under three months. It does everything WPACK does and more. Besides being a ZIP file format, it supports incremental authentication via a Merkle Tree, it also supports incremental encryption and threshold cryptography. Now if I can design and implement in three months, I really don't think it's the implementation cost that is stopping adoption. None of my features are optional because I am going after a different use case - securing data at rest. WPACK is not a format that could be used to encrypt and authenticate the transaction log of a database or a social media forum because those applications simply haven't been considered. But it could be if that was considered from the start. Instead what will happen is that a set of choices is made in the first version that foreclose later choices. https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-hallambaker-mesh-dare-11.html On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:35 PM Sean Turner wrote: > Hi! I have posted the minutes from WPACK=E2=80=99s session at IETF110: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/minutes-110-wpack-00 > > Thanks to Chris Lemmons for taking notes. Please send any comments to > wpack-chairs@ietf.org. > > spt > _______________________________________________ > Wpack mailing list > Wpack@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wpack > --000000000000ffb2c405c55b25bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the minutes

Daniel Ehrenberg: The motivation for removing some of these features is to=
 reduce the scope to increase the adoption. There is particular concern aro=
und how content-blockers will work in this context.

Martin Thomson: I think this is the right sort of thing to be thinking abou=
t right now. But a narrowly targeted thing is more likely to be successful =
here. If we cut a little too deep, we always have the opportunity to define=
 something more specific later, possibly with a different MIME type.
<= /div>

People keep saying this i= n IETF and I have yet to see evidence for the claim. Deployment depends on = two things, first cost of implementation, second the utility of the product= . Fewer features means lower cost but it also means lower incentive to depl= oy.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">There are good reason= s to keep a tight hand on features, but deployment isn't one of them. F= orcing people=C2=A0to think at a higher level and produce a more flexible p= roduct is the reason I object to niche features that fail to extend to wide= r use.

I designed, implem= ented and specified DARE by myself in under three months. It does everythin= g WPACK=C2=A0does and more. Besides being a ZIP file format, it supports in= cremental authentication via a Merkle Tree, it also supports incremental en= cryption and threshold cryptography. Now if I can design and implement in t= hree months, I really don't think it's the implementation cost that= is stopping adoption.

No= ne of my features are optional because I am going after a different use cas= e - securing data at rest. WPACK is not a format that could be used to encr= ypt and authenticate the transaction log of a database or a social media fo= rum because those applications simply haven't been considered. But it c= ould be if that was considered from the start. Instead what will happen is = that a set of choices is made in the first version that foreclose later cho= ices.

https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ha= llambaker-mesh-dare-11.html

<= /div>


On Sat, Mar 20, 202= 1 at 9:35 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.c= om> wrote:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/= meeting/110/materials/minutes-110-wpack-00

Thanks to Chris Lemmons for taking notes. Please send any comments to wpack-chairs@ietf.org= .

spt
_______________________________________________
Wpack mailing list
Wpack@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wpack
--000000000000ffb2c405c55b25bf-- From nobody Wed Jun 23 17:25:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wpack@ietf.org Delivered-To: wpack@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4E83A1616; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:25:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: wpack@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.32.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wpack@ietf.org Message-ID: <162449432383.5879.1719512978498389635@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:25:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Wpack] I-D Action: draft-ietf-wpack-bundled-responses-01.txt X-BeenThere: wpack@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Web Packaging List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:25:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Web Packaging WG of the IETF. Title : Web Bundles Author : Jeffrey Yasskin Filename : draft-ietf-wpack-bundled-responses-01.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2021-06-23 Abstract: Web bundles provide a way to bundle up groups of HTTP responses, with the request URLs and content negotiation that produced them, to transmit or store together. They can include multiple top-level resources, provide random access to their component exchanges, and efficiently store 8-bit resources. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-wpack-bundled-responses/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-wpack-bundled-responses-01.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-wpack-bundled-responses-01 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/