Subject: [xml2rfc] Small bug in bibliography files?
From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:15:14 -0700

fixed. my personal favorite in rfc-index.txt: R. Kavasseri (Editor of this
version)

/mtr

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Klyne" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 03:00
Subject: [xml2rfc] Small bug in bibliography files?

> I note that RFC 2821 and 2822 generate the following reference text when
> processed by xml2rfc (V1.7) using the RFC biblio files from about a week
ago:
>
>     [20]  Klensin, J. and  , "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol", RFC 2821,
>           April 2001.
>
>     [21]  Resnick, P. and  , "Internet Message Format", RFC 2822, April
>           2001.
>
> It seems that the annotation "Editor" had been picked up as the
> organization of a second, un-named author.
>
> I attached revised versions of the corresponding .xml files.
>
> #g
>
>
> ------------
> Graham Klyne
> ([email-masked])
>

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:00:04 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Small bug in bibliography files?
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

--=====================_247151175==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I note that RFC 2821 and 2822 generate the following reference text when 
processed by xml2rfc (V1.7) using the RFC biblio files from about a week ago:

    [20]  Klensin, J. and  , "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol", RFC 2821,
          April 2001.

    [21]  Resnick, P. and  , "Internet Message Format", RFC 2822, April
          2001.

It seems that the annotation "Editor" had been picked up as the 
organization of a second, un-named author.

I attached revised versions of the corresponding .xml files.

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

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From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]> (Bjoern Hoehrmann)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:31:48 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] Long URIs should be wrapped
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi,

   The current xml2rfc tool doesn't wrap long URIs if they don't contain
a hyphen, causing lines to exceed the 72 characters limit. This should
be changed to conform to this rule. The URI should be wrapped at the
last path segment delimiter ('/').

regards,
-- 
Björn Höhrmann { mailto:[email-masked] } http://www.bjoernsworld.de
am Badedeich 7 } Telefon: +49(0)4667/981028 { http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
25899 Dagebüll { PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 } http://www.learn.to/quote/

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:54:23 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] finer grained organization element?
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <142101c142d7$36e56650$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

> The currently provided xml2rfc online
> tool is by the way not really helpful to discover that it is missing.
> Maybe it would be at least a good idea to link some online XML
> Validation service to give authors a chance to validate the XML document
> before submitting.

good point. validation has been added to the .cgi script.

/mtr

From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]> (Bjoern Hoehrmann)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:04:45 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] finer grained organization element?
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

* Remco van de Meent wrote:
>The current rfc2629.dtd allows for one element indicating the
>organization the author is related to:
>
> <organization>Your Company</organization> 
>
>I wonder whether there are other people interested in a somewhat more
>detailed description of the organization, e.g. like this:

Yes, but in general it should be optional, some authors (like myself :-)
don't belong to any organization. The currently provided xml2rfc online
tool is by the way not really helpful to discover that it is missing.
Maybe it would be at least a good idea to link some online XML
Validation service to give authors a chance to validate the XML document
before submitting.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann { mailto:[email-masked] } http://www.bjoernsworld.de
am Badedeich 7 } Telefon: +49(0)4667/981028 { http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
25899 Dagebüll { PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 } http://www.learn.to/quote/

From: [email-masked] (Remco van de Meent)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:48:45 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] finer grained organization element?
In-Reply-To: <20010921134419.C1472@SBRIM-W2K>
References: <[email-masked]> <20010921134419.C1472@SBRIM-W2K>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Scott Brim wrote:
> > I wonder whether there are other people interested in a somewhat
> > more detailed description of the organization, e.g. like this:
> > 
> >  <association>
> >    <department>Some Department</department>
> >    <organization>Your Company</organization>
> >  </association>
> > 
> > Or maybe even more detailed?
> 
> Where would you put that in an RFC?

In the author's adress section?

Remco.

From: [email-masked] (Scott Brim)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:44:19 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] finer grained organization element?
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from [email-masked] on Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 07:36:28PM +0200
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <20010921134419.C1472@SBRIM-W2K>

On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 07:36:28PM +0200, Remco van de Meent allegedly wrote:
> The current rfc2629.dtd allows for one element indicating the
> organization the author is related to:
> 
>  <organization>Your Company</organization> 
> 
> I wonder whether there are other people interested in a somewhat more
> detailed description of the organization, e.g. like this:
> 
>  <association>
>    <department>Some Department</department>
>    <organization>Your Company</organization>
>  </association>
> 
> Or maybe even more detailed?

Where would you put that in an RFC?

From: [email-masked] (Remco van de Meent)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:36:28 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] finer grained organization element?
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi,

The current rfc2629.dtd allows for one element indicating the
organization the author is related to:

 <organization>Your Company</organization> 

I wonder whether there are other people interested in a somewhat more
detailed description of the organization, e.g. like this:

 <association>
   <department>Some Department</department>
   <organization>Your Company</organization>
 </association>

Or maybe even more detailed?

regards,
Remco.

From: [email-masked] (Russ Allbery)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 22:04:38 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: Fred Douglis's message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:11:08 -0400"
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Fred Douglis <[email-masked]> writes:

> I agree with your sentiment on creeping featurism in general, but I have
> to agree with Graham about the specifics he raises.  Yes, in plain text
> we lose the ability to emphasize, but that doesn't mean we have to
> sacrifice that ability in HTML.  If you aren't going to use certain HTML
> features, why put the title in a different font, for instance?

Maybe I'm strange, but I've always considered use of emphasis like bold
and italics to be generally out of place in technical writing, even when
it's tempting to do so.  There are other, better ways to emphasize things
in the context of an RFC, like pulling major points out into a summary,
correct use of the all-caps standards terms, or drawing special attention
to things in NOTEs.

Bold and italic, besides not being available in the canonical plain text
format for RFCs, can also be either hard to read or not visually apparent
depending on the user's font.  I think it's important to put the emphasis
integrally into the writing so that it survives translation to speech
synthesis and translation into any different formatting language.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

From: [email-masked] (Scott Brim)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:54:27 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Help converting a DOC->RTF->XML->RFC_Text
In-Reply-To: <116601c14237$376ab8a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>; from [email-masked] on Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:49:05PM -0700
References: <[email-masked]> <116601c14237$376ab8a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
Message-ID: <20010920215426.A736@SBRIM-W2K>

Or, go back to your Word document and use
draft-hain-msword-template-04.txt about how to write drafts in Word.
Also see
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/Internet_Draft_Template.doc (or ask
Tony for the template).

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:49:05 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Help converting a DOC->RTF->XML->RFC_Text
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <116601c14237$376ab8a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

the problem is that your xml doesn't conform to rfc2629.

if you're using docbook, you should look around for some software that does
docbook.

if you want to use software that does rfc2629, then you should start with
your docbook stuff and edit it accordingly.

/mtr

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarvi Shanmugham
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 16:40
Subject: [xml2rfc] Help converting a DOC->RTF->XML->RFC_Text

Hi,
    I need to conver an Word/RTF file into an RFC Text format.
    I used the "LocTran" software to convert Word/RTF file format to an XML
format.  The Logic Tran output format used the DocBook DTD to generate the
out put. It does have the capability to use user defined DTD to output to,
if need be.
I have provided the XML document it generated.
I then tried the XML2RFC tool to convert it to RFC Text
I got the following error.
   invalid DOCTYPE: book+-//OASIS/DTD
DocBook
V3.1//EN+C:/Program%20Files/Logictran/DTD/Docbookx/docbookx.dtd+

Can someone point me as to what the problem is.
Also, if the DTD of the XML document is the problem, and since the LogicTran
software can out put to an XML format with a different DTD. Is there a
specific DTD available that the XML document should be in before submitting
to the xml2rfc tool.

Thanks,
Sarvi

  <?xml version="1.0" ?>
  <!DOCTYPE book (View Source for full doctype...)>
- <book>
  <title>Test Text</title>
- <bookinfo>
- <author>
  <firstname>Saravanan</firstname>
  <surname>Shanmugham</surname>
- <affiliation>
  <address format="linespecific">Cisco Systems, Inc.</address>
  </affiliation>
  </author>
  <keywordset />
  <abstract />
  </bookinfo>
- <preface>
  <title />
  <para>Test Text.</para>
  <para>In theory, the nroff output is suitable for input to the RFC
editor.</para>
  <para>In addition, there is a directory that contains bibliographic
summaries of each RFC, suitable for including in your input:</para>
  <para><references></para>
  <para>...</para>
  <para><?rfc include="reference.RFC.2629" ?></para>
  <para>...</para>
  <para></references></para>
- <section>
- <title>
  <anchor id="Heading14" />
  Header
  </title>
  <para>You can get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  <para>New! There is now a directory of bibliographic summaries of each
Internet-draft. You can browse them here. You can also</para>
  <para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  <para>There is also a directory of bibliographic summaries for related
standards from ANSI, CCITT, FIPS, IEEE, ISO, ITU, NIST,</para>
  <para>and PKCS. (These were taken from the references section of the RFC
corpus.) You can browse them here. You can also</para>
  <para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  </section>
- <section>
- <title>
  <anchor id="Heading24" />
  Sub header
  </title>
  <para>Questions? Try the mailing list.</para>
  </section>
  </preface>
  </book>

From: [email-masked] (Sarvi Shanmugham)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:40:58 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Help converting a DOC->RTF->XML->RFC_Text
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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--------------43D28876C589FACC779042C2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,
    I need to conver an Word/RTF file into an RFC Text format.
    I used the "LocTran" software to convert Word/RTF file format to an
XML format.  The Logic Tran output format used the DocBook DTD to
generate the out put. It does have the capability to use user defined
DTD to output to, if need be.

I have provided the XML document it generated.

I then tried the XML2RFC tool to convert it to RFC Text
I got the following error.

        invalid DOCTYPE: book+-//OASIS/DTD
     DocBook
     V3.1//EN+C:/Program%20Files/Logictran/DTD/Docbookx/docbookx.dtd+

Can someone point me as to what the problem is.

Also, if the DTD of the XML document is the problem, and since the
LogicTran software can out put to an XML format with a different DTD. Is
there a specific DTD available that the XML document should be in before
submitting to the xml2rfc tool.

Thanks,
Sarvi

  <?xml version="1.0" ?>
  <!DOCTYPE book (View Source for full doctype...)>
- <book>
  <title>Test Text</title>
- <bookinfo>
- <author>
  <firstname>Saravanan</firstname>
  <surname>Shanmugham</surname>
- <affiliation>
  <address format="linespecific">Cisco Systems, Inc.</address>
  </affiliation>
  </author>
  <keywordset />
  <abstract />
  </bookinfo>
- <preface>
  <title />
  <para>Test Text.</para>
  <para>In theory, the nroff output is suitable for input to the RFC
editor.</para>
  <para>In addition, there is a directory that contains bibliographic
summaries of each RFC, suitable for including in your input:</para>
  <para><references></para>
  <para>...</para>
  <para><?rfc include="reference.RFC.2629" ?></para>
  <para>...</para>
  <para></references></para>
- <section>
- <title>
  <anchor id="Heading14" />
  Header
  </title>
  <para>You can get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  <para>New! There is now a directory of bibliographic summaries of each
Internet-draft. You can browse them here. You can also</para>
  <para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  <para>There is also a directory of bibliographic summaries for related
standards from ANSI, CCITT, FIPS, IEEE, ISO, ITU, NIST,</para>
  <para>and PKCS. (These were taken from the references section of the
RFC corpus.) You can browse them here. You can also</para>
  <para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or tgz
file.</para>
  </section>
- <section>
- <title>
  <anchor id="Heading24" />
  Sub header
  </title>
  <para>Questions? Try the mailing list.</para>
  </section>
  </preface>
  </book>

--------------43D28876C589FACC779042C2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Hi,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I need to conver an Word/RTF file into an RFC Text
format.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I used the "LocTran" software to convert Word/RTF
file format to an XML format.&nbsp; The Logic Tran output format used the
DocBook DTD to generate the out put. It does have the capability to use
user defined DTD to output to, if need be.
<p>I have provided the XML document it generated.
<p>I then tried the XML2RFC tool to convert it to RFC Text
<br>I got the following error.
<blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp; invalid DOCTYPE: book+-//OASIS/DTD
<br>DocBook
<br>V3.1//EN+C:/Program%20Files/Logictran/DTD/Docbookx/docbookx.dtd+
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
Can someone point me as to what the problem is.
<p>Also, if the DTD of the XML document is the problem, and since the LogicTran
software can out put to an XML format with a different DTD. Is there a
specific DTD available that the XML document should be in before submitting
to the xml2rfc tool.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Thanks,
<br>Sarvi
<br>&nbsp;
<p>&nbsp; &lt;?xml version="1.0" ?>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;!DOCTYPE book (View Source for full doctype...)>
<br>- &lt;book>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;title>Test Text&lt;/title>
<br>- &lt;bookinfo>
<br>- &lt;author>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;firstname>Saravanan&lt;/firstname>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;surname>Shanmugham&lt;/surname>
<br>- &lt;affiliation>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;address format="linespecific">Cisco Systems, Inc.&lt;/address>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/affiliation>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/author>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;keywordset />
<br>&nbsp; &lt;abstract />
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/bookinfo>
<br>- &lt;preface>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;title />
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>Test Text.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>In theory, the nroff output is suitable for input to
the RFC editor.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>In addition, there is a directory that contains bibliographic
summaries of each RFC, suitable for including in your input:&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>&lt;references>&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>...&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>&lt;?rfc include="reference.RFC.2629" ?>&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>...&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>&lt;/references>&lt;/para>
<br>- &lt;section>
<br>- &lt;title>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;anchor id="Heading14" />
<br>&nbsp; Header
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/title>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>You can get the contents of the entire directory as
a zip or tgz file.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>New! There is now a directory of bibliographic summaries
of each Internet-draft. You can browse them here. You can also&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or
tgz file.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>There is also a directory of bibliographic summaries
for related standards from ANSI, CCITT, FIPS, IEEE, ISO, ITU, NIST,&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>and PKCS. (These were taken from the references section
of the RFC corpus.) You can browse them here. You can also&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>get the contents of the entire directory as a zip or
tgz file.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/section>
<br>- &lt;section>
<br>- &lt;title>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;anchor id="Heading24" />
<br>&nbsp; Sub header
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/title>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;para>Questions? Try the mailing list.&lt;/para>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/section>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/preface>
<br>&nbsp; &lt;/book></html>

--------------43D28876C589FACC779042C2--

--------------324DFCE9D10DCCE5C8821D95
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Sarvi Shanmugham
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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begin:vcard 
n:Shanmugham;Saravanan
x-mozilla-html:TRUE
org:Cisco Systems Inc;Voice Technology Center
adr:;;170 W Tasman Drive;San Jose;CA;95134;USA
version:2.1
email;internet:[email-masked]
title:Software Engineer
fn:Saravanan Shanmugham
end:vcard

--------------324DFCE9D10DCCE5C8821D95--

From: [email-masked] (Fred Douglis)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:11:08 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:08:42 PDT." <0b0a01c14146$e1e39870$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

I agree with your sentiment on creeping featurism in general, but I have to 
agree with Graham about the specifics he raises.  Yes, in plain text we lose 
the ability to emphasize, but that doesn't mean we have to sacrifice that 
ability in HTML.  If you aren't going to use certain HTML features, why put 
the title in a different font, for instance?  

So allowing the user to pass a limited set of tags -- especially when they 
have clear nroff equivalents as well -- is a Good Thing in my book.

Fred

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:26:39 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] I-D biblio database
Message-ID: <0de401c1418c$71f82800$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/

there are still some kinks to be worked out, but it's more or less there
now.

see http://xml.resource.org/ for pointers to the .tgz and .zip files

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:24:06 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:08:42 PDT." <0b0a01c14146$e1e39870$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Marshall" == Marshall T Rose <[email-masked]> writes:
    Marshall> accordingly, it worries me considerably to talk about tags like
    Marshall> <em>, <b>, or <code>. we do those three this week.

    Marshall> next month someone is asking for <table> and <blink>.

    Marshall> the month after that, someone is asking for <applet>.

  Well, that's a question of creaping featurism, and is something to be
resisted.

  The reason to mark up the different components, even if they get almost
nothing in ASCII is that it still provides semantic content whic is useful
for searching.

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another NetBSD/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:08:42 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <20010918172801.X1744@SBRIM-W2K> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <0b0a01c14146$e1e39870$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

graham - the thing which i can not emphasize enough is the importance of
staying focused on xml2rfc being something to produce rfc-like things.
people who desire a lot of features would be better served by docbook or
some such.

accordingly, it worries me considerably to talk about tags like <em>, <b>,
or <code>. we do those three this week.

next month someone is asking for <table> and <blink>.

the month after that, someone is asking for <applet>.

the reason i like the emoticonic aproach so much is that it looks like a
hack, it feels like a hack, and no one is going to go from |'serverName| or
|"mixer::init| to asking for html4 compliance.

i realize this argument is less analytical than philosophical, but hopefully
it resonates with folks...

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:03:25 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: <07fd01c1408c$c75b67e0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <20010918172801.X1744@SBRIM-W2K>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

At 02:56 PM 9/18/01 -0700, Marshall T. Rose wrote:
> > Hm.  Back when I first did HTML mode in TCL for Alpha
> > <http://alpha.olm.net>, I made it very table driven so that people like
> > you (:-)) could add their own attributes.  Luckily there are very few
> > things you can do with a attribute.  Marshall, it might be time to do
> > something like that.
>
>i like the approach, but i'm very concerned about feature creep, and in
>particular how this works when either .txt or .nroff is being output.
>
>to me, a more minimalistic approach makes more sense.
>
>what i'm looking at now works like this :
>
>     <?rfc emoticonic='yes' ?>
>
>|*pay attention| - emphasis
>
>|'Content-Type:| - formal terms, domain names, etc.
>
>|"if { i++ > 3 }| - code fragment
>
>this approach lacks the generality of things like <fqdn> or <code> or
>whatever, but realistically, do you really need to tag something as an
><fqdn> or <mime-header>? probably not, even when the output is html.

I agree about feature creep, and that many options are not needed.  (My 
original comments were aimed at the relatively small set of styles offered 
by basic HTML.)

However, having gone to the trouble of using XML to mark up a document, it 
seems odd to me that you'd use some different form of markup for these 
styles.  I'd suggest (a) using a limited subset of HTML markup tags (for 
familiarity), e.g.
    <em>...</em>
    <var>...</var>
    <code>...</code>
for the three cases you note, or (b) making up your own tags.

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
[email-masked]

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:56:32 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <20010918172801.X1744@SBRIM-W2K>
Message-ID: <07fd01c1408c$c75b67e0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

> Hm.  Back when I first did HTML mode in TCL for Alpha
> <http://alpha.olm.net>, I made it very table driven so that people like
> you (:-)) could add their own attributes.  Luckily there are very few
> things you can do with a attribute.  Marshall, it might be time to do
> something like that.

i like the approach, but i'm very concerned about feature creep, and in
particular how this works when either .txt or .nroff is being output.

to me, a more minimalistic approach makes more sense.

what i'm looking at now works like this :

    <?rfc emoticonic='yes' ?>

|*pay attention| - emphasis

|'Content-Type:| - formal terms, domain names, etc.

|"if { i++ > 3 }| - code fragment

this approach lacks the generality of things like <fqdn> or <code> or
whatever, but realistically, do you really need to tag something as an
<fqdn> or <mime-header>? probably not, even when the output is html.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Scott Brim)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:28:01 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from [email-masked] on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:39:17PM -0400
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <20010918172801.X1744@SBRIM-W2K>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2001 04:39:17PM -0400, Michael Richardson allegedly wrote:
>   I'd like to have a whole set of attributes...
> 
>   <netaddr></netaddr> to put around literal IPv4 and IPv6 addresses.
>   <var></var> to put around abstract stuff (e.g. IPV4ADDR)
>   <fqdn></fqdn> obvious.
>   <rfc822></rfc822> for email addresses in text (or could <userfqdn>)
>   <mimetype></mimetype>
>   <mimeheader></mimeheader> so that I can speak about the "In-Reply-To" 
> 			    header in a draft about email.

Hm.  Back when I first did HTML mode in TCL for Alpha
<http://alpha.olm.net>, I made it very table driven so that people like
you (:-)) could add their own attributes.  Luckily there are very few
things you can do with a attribute.  Marshall, it might be time to do
something like that.

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:39:17 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:47:11 BST." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

>>>>> "Graham" == Graham Klyne <[email-masked]> writes:
    Graham> At 03:04 PM 9/17/01 -0700, Marshall T. Rose wrote:
    >> > Now I'm starting to (try to) use XML2RFC seriously, I'm finding some
    >> other > nits: I note there's no option to indicate text styles.  For
    >> regular RFC > production this is clearly immaterial, but as HTML
    >> generation is one of the > other options it seems it would be useful
    >> to be able to include basic HTML > style tags within a <t> element.
    >> 
    >> graham - what do you mean by "text style"?
    >> 
    >> are you talking about <b>...</b>, <tt>...</tt>, <i>...</i>
    >> 
    >> or something else?

    Graham> Yes those, and maybe more significantly things like
    Graham> <code>...</code>, <var>...</var>, <cite>...</cite>,
    Graham> <strong>...</strong>.

    Graham> The one I most missed was <code>...</code> for protocol element
    Graham> names in running text.

  I'd like to have a whole set of attributes...

  <netaddr></netaddr> to put around literal IPv4 and IPv6 addresses.
  <var></var> to put around abstract stuff (e.g. IPV4ADDR)
  <fqdn></fqdn> obvious.
  <rfc822></rfc822> for email addresses in text (or could <userfqdn>)
  <mimetype></mimetype>
  <mimeheader></mimeheader> so that I can speak about the "In-Reply-To" 
			    header in a draft about email.

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another NetBSD/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [

  

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:35:45 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:33:38 BST." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Graham" == Graham Klyne <[email-masked]> writes:
    Graham> At 11:09 AM 9/18/01 -0400, Fred Douglis wrote:
    >> Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?
    >> 
    >> I have the same question for Internet-Drafts -- but I haven't put such
    >> a file together yet.  I'm hoping someone else who uses the tool might
    >> have automated the process of taking the current i-d directory and
    >> extracting titles and authors and such.  Anyone?

    Graham> The trouble is, Internet-drafts, by design, are transient
    Graham> documents, and very many new ones are issued every day.  Those
    Graham> that stay the course become RFCs, and I'm guessing that Marshall

  This is not to stop WG chairs or ID authors from making this available.
  It could even be put at the very end of ID's, generated by xml2rfc
itself...

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another NetBSD/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:34:07 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
References: <Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:43:29 BST." <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <06ba01c14081$4426d900$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

> The trouble is, Internet-drafts, by design, are transient documents, and
> very many new ones are issued every day.  Those that stay the course
become
> RFCs, and I'm guessing that Marshall has plans to keep the RFC
bibliography
> up to date.  (The more folks who use xml2rfc, the easier that job
becomes.)

i have a script that runs once a night. one of the things it does is
generate bibxml files from new entries in rfc-index.txt

i also spent a fair bit of money having the backmatter converted on a couple
of thousand of the rfcs (primarily for citation analysis), but that's
another story...

> I'm not familiar with .bib files.

latex/bibtex - very cool stuff written a long time ago and still in a lot of
use...

a converter for this would be nice.

From: [email-masked] (Fred Douglis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:27:37 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:33:38 BST." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> The trouble is, Internet-drafts, by design, are transient documents, and 
> very many new ones are issued every day.  Those that stay the course become 
> RFCs, and I'm guessing that Marshall has plans to keep the RFC bibliography 
> up to date.  (The more folks who use xml2rfc, the easier that job becomes.)

Agreed.  But still, one sometimes needs to cite an I-D, and generating the XML 
for this by hand is quite tedious.

I wouldn't expect there to be a single file, like there is for RFCs.  But a 
filter to take either the master list of "current" I-Ds or a single I-D in txt 
format, and generate the citation information, would be useful.  

As I said, I could probably hack something together, and I intend to do this 
if I time out on this query.

> >Or a bib2xml converter for .bib files?  That seems easy enough, but again, I
> >won't reinvent the wheel if someone has it and can offer it.
> 
> I'm not familiar with .bib files.

They're used by LaTeX among others.  If you go to 

   http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/waisbib.html

you can look up huge numbers of citations, in bib format.  Being able to get 
these in a format xml2rfc could understand would also be useful.
Again, this transformation isn't hard, and I'm wondering if someone's done it 
already, but I can do it myself too.

Fred

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:33:38 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:43:29 BST." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

At 11:09 AM 9/18/01 -0400, Fred Douglis wrote:
>     Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?
>
>I have the same question for Internet-Drafts -- but I haven't put such a file
>together yet.  I'm hoping someone else who uses the tool might have automated
>the process of taking the current i-d directory and extracting titles and
>authors and such.  Anyone?

The trouble is, Internet-drafts, by design, are transient documents, and 
very many new ones are issued every day.  Those that stay the course become 
RFCs, and I'm guessing that Marshall has plans to keep the RFC bibliography 
up to date.  (The more folks who use xml2rfc, the easier that job becomes.)

>Or a bib2xml converter for .bib files?  That seems easy enough, but again, I
>won't reinvent the wheel if someone has it and can offer it.

I'm not familiar with .bib files.

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

From: [email-masked] (Fred Douglis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:09:57 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:43:29 BST." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

    Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?

I have the same question for Internet-Drafts -- but I haven't put such a file 
together yet.  I'm hoping someone else who uses the tool might have automated 
the process of taking the current i-d directory and extracting titles and 
authors and such.  Anyone?  

Or a bib2xml converter for .bib files?  That seems easy enough, but again, I 
won't reinvent the wheel if someone has it and can offer it.

Thanks,

Fred

From: [email-masked] (Scott Brim)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:20:50 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from [email-masked] on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:47:11AM +0100
References: <[email-masked]> <035f01c13fc4$b4f2b770$8d53cf3f@FATORA> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <20010918082050.G1744@SBRIM-W2K>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2001 11:47:11AM +0100, Graham Klyne allegedly wrote:
> Yes those, and maybe more significantly things like <code>...</code>, 
> <var>...</var>, <cite>...</cite>, <strong>...</strong>.
> 
> The one I most missed was <code>...</code> for protocol element names in 
> running text.

How would you want these represented in plain text?

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:47:11 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
In-Reply-To: <035f01c13fc4$b4f2b770$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

At 03:04 PM 9/17/01 -0700, Marshall T. Rose wrote:
> > Now I'm starting to (try to) use XML2RFC seriously, I'm finding some other
> > nits:  I note there's no option to indicate text styles.  For regular RFC
> > production this is clearly immaterial, but as HTML generation is one of
>the
> > other options it seems it would be useful to be able to include basic HTML
> > style tags within a <t> element.
>
>graham - what do you mean by "text style"?
>
>are you talking about <b>...</b>, <tt>...</tt>, <i>...</i>
>
>or something else?

Yes those, and maybe more significantly things like <code>...</code>, 
<var>...</var>, <cite>...</cite>, <strong>...</strong>.

The one I most missed was <code>...</code> for protocol element names in 
running text.

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:12:14 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Using xml2rfc
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <036d01c13fc5$ce8822a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

> I am repeatedly unsuccessful using the xml2rfc translator.  Can someone
send
> me an *.xml file that works with this translator so I may compare my xml
> file to one that is known to work?

i'd go to http://xml.resource.org/ and download either the .zip or .tgz file
for xml2rfc.

each contains a couple of .xml files for you to look at

> fyi, this is the response I get from xml2rfc:
>
> <title>You lose</title>
> <h1>Unable to Convert File</h1><pre>missing month attribute in date
element
> ...

my guess is that in the date element at the front of your document you don't
have a month attribute, e.g., you have

    <date year='2001' />

instead of

    <date month='September' year='2001' />

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:04:21 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <035f01c13fc4$b4f2b770$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

> Now I'm starting to (try to) use XML2RFC seriously, I'm finding some other
> nits:  I note there's no option to indicate text styles.  For regular RFC
> production this is clearly immaterial, but as HTML generation is one of
the
> other options it seems it would be useful to be able to include basic HTML
> style tags within a <t> element.

graham - what do you mean by "text style"?

are you talking about <b>...</b>, <tt>...</tt>, <i>...</i>

or something else?

thanks,

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Fred Robinson)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:59:30 -0600
Subject: [xml2rfc] Using xml2rfc
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

I am repeatedly unsuccessful using the xml2rfc translator.  Can someone send
me an *.xml file that works with this translator so I may compare my xml
file to one that is known to work?

Thanks!

fyi, this is the response I get from xml2rfc:

<title>You lose</title>
<h1>Unable to Convert File</h1><pre>missing month attribute in date element

Context: 
    &lt;rfc&gt;
    &lt;front&gt;
</pre><hr><ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.20 Server at xml.resource.org Port
80</ADDRESS>

<html>
<body >
</body>
</html>

Fred Robinson
Sr. Systems Engineer
SandCherry networks
http://www.sandcherry.com/
2845 Wilderness Pl.
Boulder, CO 80301
720.272.5201
[email-masked] 

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/psel/ps0004a.html

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:40:35 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Text attributes
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Changing the include convention to be an XML processing instruction was a 
great idea -- now I can use my validating XML editor to edit the source.

Now I'm starting to (try to) use XML2RFC seriously, I'm finding some other 
nits:  I note there's no option to indicate text styles.  For regular RFC 
production this is clearly immaterial, but as HTML generation is one of the 
other options it seems it would be useful to be able to include basic HTML 
style tags within a <t> element.

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:31:18 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
In-Reply-To: <02c701c13ca7$ab92e3a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

At 03:58 PM 9/13/01 -0700, Marshall T. Rose wrote:
>graham - thanks. i've added them to the directory that re-creates
>bibxml2.{tgz,zip} nightly.
>
>my only comment is that in the "seriesInfo", the name should just be
>"W3C" -- the value already indicates recommendation or candidate
>recommendation.

Well, it does, sometimes.  I was uncomfortable with this duplication myself.

There's also the fact that W3C have two parallel document naming conventions:
- http://www.w3.org/TR/name
- http://www.w3.org/TR/yyyy/REC-name-yyyymmdd

(where REC- is a prefix indicating Recommendation status.)

The former being used for the "latest version" of any given specification, 
and the latter for a never-changed snapshot.  For example, 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml now gets you the XML 2nd edition 
specification.  The status prefix (WD, CR, PR, REC) seems to be 
inconsistently applied in this case;  e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt, 
compared with the XML spec. name noted above.

Anyway, I've revised my working set of W3C references to drop the status 
prefix from the filenames, anchor name and seriesInfo 'value' attribute, 
and spell out the actual status (e.g. "W3C Recommendation") in the name 
attribute.  Example below.

I'll send in an update when I'm happy I've debugged them.

#g
--

Example:  reference.W3C.xml-names.xml

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- edited with XML Spy v4.0 (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Graham Klyne (me) -->
<!DOCTYPE reference SYSTEM 'rfc2629.dtd'>
<reference anchor="W3C.xml-names" target="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names">
   <front>
     <title>Namespaces in XML</title>
     <author initials="T." surname="Bray" fullname="Tim Bray">
       <organization>Textuality</organization>
       <address>
         <email>[email-masked]</email>
       </address>
     </author>
     <author initials="D." surname="Hollander" fullname="Dave Hollander">
       <organization>Hewlett-Packard Company</organization>
       <address>
         <email>[email-masked]</email>
       </address>
     </author>
     <author initials="A." surname="Layman" fullname="Andrew Layman">
       <organization>Microsoft</organization>
       <address>
         <email>[email-masked]</email>
       </address>
     </author>
     <date day="14" month="January" year="1999"/>
   </front>
   <seriesInfo name="W3C Recommendation" value="xml-names"/>
</reference>

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Graham Klyne" <[email-masked]>
>To: <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 08:43
>Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
>
>
> > Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?
> >
> > If not, here's a small selection that may be of some use (XML, XML NS,
> > XSLT, RDF, RDF schema).
> >
> > #g
> >
> >
> > ------------
> > Graham Klyne
> > ([email-masked])
> >

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:12:41 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc v1.8 released
References: <[email-masked]> <02c701c13ca7$ab92e3a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>
Message-ID: <02ff01c13ca9$96db2b50$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

several improvements to the nroff generator to make it easier to "just give
nroff to the rfc-editor".

    http://xml.resource.org/

thanks,

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:58:57 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <02c701c13ca7$ab92e3a0$8d53cf3f@FATORA>

graham - thanks. i've added them to the directory that re-creates
bibxml2.{tgz,zip} nightly.

my only comment is that in the "seriesInfo", the name should just be
"W3C" -- the value already indicates recommendation or candidate
recommendation.

/mtr

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Klyne" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 08:43
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents

> Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?
>
> If not, here's a small selection that may be of some use (XML, XML NS,
> XSLT, RDF, RDF schema).
>
> #g
>
>
> ------------
> Graham Klyne
> ([email-masked])
>

From: [email-masked] (Graham Klyne)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:43:29 +0100
Subject: [xml2rfc] Bibliography files for W3C documents
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

--=====================_10118775==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Has anybody prepared bibliography files for W3C documents?

If not, here's a small selection that may be of some use (XML, XML NS, 
XSLT, RDF, RDF schema).

#g

------------
Graham Klyne
([email-masked])

--=====================_10118775==_
Content-Type: application/zip; name="BIBXMLW3C.zip";
 x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BIBXMLW3C.zip"

--=====================_10118775==_--