Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:28:13 +0200

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:30 AM
> To: Julian Reschke
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
>
>
> > ...
> >
> > So the easiest approach is: for any input character with a code point >=
> > U+0080 (outside the ASCII range), just serialize it as
> "&#codepoint;". The
> > result may not be pretty to read, but it will work in any
> character encoding
> > that extends ASCII (so almost all except EBCDIC?).
>
> julian - thanks. this makes sense.
>
> finally, do you agree with henrik's note that codepoints should
> be expressed as decimal rather than hex.

He's probably right.

I haven't used anything older thah IE 6 or Mozilla 6 for a long time, so I
don't care. If a browser doesn't accept the hex variabt, it's buggy amd
should be updated :-)

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:30:20 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <00c801c235ca$9d1f1100$0701000a@FATORA> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> ...
>
> So the easiest approach is: for any input character with a code point >=
> U+0080 (outside the ASCII range), just serialize it as "&#codepoint;". The
> result may not be pretty to read, but it will work in any character encoding
> that extends ASCII (so almost all except EBCDIC?).

julian - thanks. this makes sense.

finally, do you agree with henrik's note that codepoints should be expressed as decimal rather than hex.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Henrik Levkowetz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:05:08 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

And if I may add just one tiny practical detail to Julian's most excellent
summary, it is that for the "&#codepoint;", both decimal and hexadecimal
encoding of 'codepoint' is permissible in HTML 4.0, but in practice it
is reported that more browsers understand the decimal form than the octal 
form. Julian's example handles this fine; the euro sign, which is
&#x20ac; in the input, is issued as &#8364; in the output.

	Henrik

Julian wrote:
>
> I'll try to explain again. Examples (XML, XSLT, HTML produced are attached).
> 
> 1) The input encoding of the XML file is irrelevant, as long as it's
> correctly declared. It's the XML parser's job to (i) understand the encoding
> (or to reject it) and (ii) to resolve numerical entities such as "&#x20ac";
> in my sample input file. The input file foobar.xml uses ISO8859-1 as
> character encoding. This encoding includes the german umlauts in the file,
> but it doesn't include the Euro sign. The Euro sign has the Unicode code
> point U+20AC, so I'm just writing "&#x20ac;". The XML parser will just
> report that it found the Unicode character U+20AC, and it's irrelevant for
> the application how it got there.
> 
> 2) Conceptually, the process of generating HTML can be seen as two phases --
> (i) building a tree of HTML elements, attributes and text nodes, and (ii)
> writing it into a octet stream. For (ii), one has to decide which character
> encoding to use. In XSLT, you select the output encoding using xsl:output
> (see foobar.xslt). Let's assume that non-ASCII characters only appear as
> part of attribute values or text nodes. Anytime you write such a text value
> into the octet stream, you will have to map the Unicode characters to octet
> sequences valid for that encoding. As the target encoding does not support
> the full range of Unicode, one will have to escape these Unicode characters
> into a HTML/XML-compliant escape sequence, such as "&#codepoint;". That's
> it. (See result foobar.html).
> 
> 3) HTML != XML, so an HTML browser can't use an XML declaration to detect
> the content encoding. When served through HTTP, the content-type header
> *should* suffice. However, in absence of MIME information, the browser will
> need in-band information, that's what the META tag in the HTML head is for
> (see foobar.html).
> 
> 
> So the easiest approach is: for any input character with a code point >=
> U+0080 (outside the ASCII range), just serialize it as "&#codepoint;". The
> result may not be pretty to read, but it will work in any character encoding
> that extends ASCII (so almost all except EBCDIC?).
> 
> BTW: as rfc2629.xslt relies on standard XML parsing and serialization, it
> already does all of this. In this case, one would need code to *reject*
> non-ASCII characters in text content where it's not allowed.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:49:50 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <00c801c235ca$9d1f1100$0701000a@FATORA>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall T.
> Rose
> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:06 AM
> To: Julian Reschke; Marshall Rose
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
>
>
> > > okay, fine. we can look at it that way. if we adopt carl's proposal of
> > > having optional information for each author that allows them to put
> > > their native names and addresses there, then tell me what the
> pcdata and
> > > resulting html should look like if one author is from japan and the
> > > other is from france.
> >
> > That's trivial (you can already try it with my XSLT by sticking
> non-ASCII
> > characters into the text):
> >
> > For any Unicode character reported by the XML parser that has a
> code point
> > outside the ASCII range, serialize it as
> >
> > "&#codepoint;"
> >
> > It's totally irrelevant how many languages are used -- just rely on
> Unicode.
>
> julian - one more time. give me a real example of an xml file
> that does this
> instead of just saying "it's trivial". what's trivial to me is
> just ignoring
> the request, ok?

:-) *I* could live with that.

I'll try to explain again. Examples (XML, XSLT, HTML produced are attached).

1) The input encoding of the XML file is irrelevant, as long as it's
correctly declared. It's the XML parser's job to (i) understand the encoding
(or to reject it) and (ii) to resolve numerical entities such as "&#x20ac";
in my sample input file. The input file foobar.xml uses ISO8859-1 as
character encoding. This encoding includes the german umlauts in the file,
but it doesn't include the Euro sign. The Euro sign has the Unicode code
point U+20AC, so I'm just writing "&#x20ac;". The XML parser will just
report that it found the Unicode character U+20AC, and it's irrelevant for
the application how it got there.

2) Conceptually, the process of generating HTML can be seen as two phases --
(i) building a tree of HTML elements, attributes and text nodes, and (ii)
writing it into a octet stream. For (ii), one has to decide which character
encoding to use. In XSLT, you select the output encoding using xsl:output
(see foobar.xslt). Let's assume that non-ASCII characters only appear as
part of attribute values or text nodes. Anytime you write such a text value
into the octet stream, you will have to map the Unicode characters to octet
sequences valid for that encoding. As the target encoding does not support
the full range of Unicode, one will have to escape these Unicode characters
into a HTML/XML-compliant escape sequence, such as "&#codepoint;". That's
it. (See result foobar.html).

3) HTML != XML, so an HTML browser can't use an XML declaration to detect
the content encoding. When served through HTTP, the content-type header
*should* suffice. However, in absence of MIME information, the browser will
need in-band information, that's what the META tag in the HTML head is for
(see foobar.html).

So the easiest approach is: for any input character with a code point >=
U+0080 (outside the ASCII range), just serialize it as "&#codepoint;". The
result may not be pretty to read, but it will work in any character encoding
that extends ASCII (so almost all except EBCDIC?).

BTW: as rfc2629.xslt relies on standard XML parsing and serialization, it
already does all of this. In this case, one would need code to *reject*
non-ASCII characters in text content where it's not allowed.

Julian

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="foobar.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="foobar.html"

<html>
<body>
<p>German umlauts =E4=F6=FC=DF=C4=D6=DC=DF, Euro sign: &#8364;</p>
</body>
</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="foobar.xml"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="foobar.xml"

<?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"iso-8859-1" ?>
<?xml-stylesheet type=3D"text/xsl" href=3D"foobar.xslt" ?>
<foobar>German umlauts =E4=F6=FC=DF=C4=D6=DC=DF, Euro sign: =
&#x20ac;</foobar>
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="foobar.xslt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="foobar.xslt"

<xsl:transform xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
                version="1.0"
>

<xsl:output encoding="iso-8859-1" />

<xsl:template match="/">
  <html>
    <body>
      <p><xsl:value-of select="foobar"/></p>
    </body>
  </html>
</xsl:template>

</xsl:transform>
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="foobar.xslt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="foobar.xslt"

<xsl:transform xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
                version="1.0"
>

<xsl:output encoding="iso-8859-1" />

<xsl:template match="/">
  <html>
    <head>
    </head>
    <body>
      <p><xsl:value-of select="foobar"/></p>
    </body>
  </html>
</xsl:template>

</xsl:transform>
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="foobar.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="foobar.html"

<html>
<head>
<META http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
</head>
<body>
<p>German umlauts =E4=F6=FC=DF=C4=D6=DC=DF, Euro sign: &#8364;</p>
</body>
</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2361C.1DE86970--

From: [email-masked] (Marshall T. Rose)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:06:24 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <00c801c235ca$9d1f1100$0701000a@FATORA>

> > okay, fine. we can look at it that way. if we adopt carl's proposal of
> > having optional information for each author that allows them to put
> > their native names and addresses there, then tell me what the pcdata and
> > resulting html should look like if one author is from japan and the
> > other is from france.
>
> That's trivial (you can already try it with my XSLT by sticking non-ASCII
> characters into the text):
>
> For any Unicode character reported by the XML parser that has a code point
> outside the ASCII range, serialize it as
>
> "&#codepoint;"
>
> It's totally irrelevant how many languages are used -- just rely on
Unicode.

julian - one more time. give me a real example of an xml file that does this
instead of just saying "it's trivial". what's trivial to me is just ignoring
the request, ok?

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:29:51 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:27 AM
> To: Julian Reschke
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
>
> ...
>
> > > 2. support for multiple languages (i.e., one author using
> 8859-1, another
> > > using euc-jp.
> >
> > Oh no, these are *encodings*, not *languages*.
>
> okay, fine. we can look at it that way. if we adopt carl's proposal of
> having optional information for each author that allows them to put
> their native names and addresses there, then tell me what the pcdata and
> resulting html should look like if one author is from japan and the
> other is from france.

That's trivial (you can already try it with my XSLT by sticking non-ASCII
characters into the text):

For any Unicode character reported by the XML parser that has a code point
outside the ASCII range, serialize it as

	"&#codepoint;"

It's totally irrelevant how many languages are used -- just rely on Unicode.

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:27:00 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <004201c23434$baf04f10$7a00000a@dev0196> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> > 1. non-ascii support for all author information, not just the
> > author's name
> 
> What about titles?

out of scope.
    
> > 2. support for multiple languages (i.e., one author using 8859-1, another
> > using euc-jp.
> 
> Oh no, these are *encodings*, not *languages*.

okay, fine. we can look at it that way. if we adopt carl's proposal of
having optional information for each author that allows them to put
their native names and addresses there, then tell me what the pcdata and
resulting html should look like if one author is from japan and the
other is from france.

> Now the more interesting question is: what if the target is plain text?

then none of these optional things are looked at. the existing elements
continue to be required to be ascii rfc-compatible.
    
/mtr
    
ps: in case folks haven't figured this out: the more complicate this
gets, and the more confusing this gets, the less likely it's ever going
to show up in 2629 or xml2rfc.

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:43:38 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <004201c23434$baf04f10$7a00000a@dev0196>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 1:41 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: Marshall Rose
> Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
>
>
> so, if i review the replies that were sent, the major issues are:
>
> 1. non-ascii support for all author information, not just the
> author's name

What about titles?

> 2. support for multiple languages (i.e., one author using 8859-1, another
> using euc-jp.

Oh no, these are *encodings*, not *languages*.

> 3. support for non-ascii text, e.g., in examples.
>
> i understand how to do (1), given that carl malamud gave a
> concise example.
>
> i don't entirely understand how to do (2). i suppose instead of using the
>
>     <?xml encoding='...' ?>
>
> directive, we can use the
>
>     xml:lang='...'
>
> attribute. but, what do i sprinkle on the html in order to tell
> the browser
> that we're changing languages for parts of the document.

I think this is a big misunderstanding.

We are talking about the *octec* encoding of the result document. There can
only be one. Usually, which one you pick doesn't matter at all (for HTML),
as long as your user agent understands it. The safest bet is US-ASCII, and
to encode all non-ASCII characters using numerical entities (such as
"&#0160;" for non-breaking-space, "&#x20ac;" for the Euro sign).

The target encoding should not be part of the document, but an optional
parameter of the transformation process.

RFC2629.xslt currently produces ISO8859-1, but anybody who needs to change
this can just stick another encoding value into the xsl:output instruction
(at the start of the stylesheet).

> i suppose if we were to limit (3) to <artwork/>, and we were to
> limit it to
> just one language, it's doable, providing someone gives me a solution to
> (2).

Just experiment with different values for the encoding in the XSLT, and
you'll get the proper HTML representations.

Now the more interesting question is: what if the target is plain text?

From: [email-masked] (Henrik Levkowetz)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:12:18 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
In-Reply-To: <004201c23434$baf04f10$7a00000a@dev0196>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Marshall,

On Friday, 26 July 2002, Marshall Rose wrote:
> 
... 
> attribute. but, what do i sprinkle on the html in order to tell the browser
> that we're changing languages for parts of the document.

I tried to look into this possibility recently, when I wanted to put some
japanese characters on a web page, and ended up with the conclusion that
changing character encoding system for parts of a document is not possible 
in html. So you can't change the encoding from e.g. latin-1 to shift_JIS 
within one document. With encoding I meand the way bytes or byte sequences
are interpreted as character glyphs (or vice versa, to be more precise).

What is possible (as mentioned by others, too) is to use numerical (unicode) 
character references, at least when you're viewing a page with a reasonably 
modern browser. Thus "&#12367;&#12384;&#12373;&#12356;" spells 'kudasai' 
using japanese hiragana, no matter what character encoding system is used in 
the document otherwise.

To set the base encoding for the whole html document to be e.g. Shift_JIS
instead of the default latin-1, you would use a meta tag immediately after the 
<head> tag:

  <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Shift_JIS">

(But I guess you already knew that).

	Regards,
		Henrik

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:40:59 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc, part deux
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <004201c23434$baf04f10$7a00000a@dev0196>

so, if i review the replies that were sent, the major issues are:

1. non-ascii support for all author information, not just the author's name

2. support for multiple languages (i.e., one author using 8859-1, another
using euc-jp.

3. support for non-ascii text, e.g., in examples.

i understand how to do (1), given that carl malamud gave a concise example.

i don't entirely understand how to do (2). i suppose instead of using the

    <?xml encoding='...' ?>

directive, we can use the

    xml:lang='...'

attribute. but, what do i sprinkle on the html in order to tell the browser
that we're changing languages for parts of the document.

i suppose if we were to limit (3) to <artwork/>, and we were to limit it to
just one language, it's doable, providing someone gives me a solution to
(2).

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:24:50 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:36:57 +0200." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Julian" == Julian Reschke <[email-masked]> writes:
    Julian> Do you have any evidence that any of these drafts were produces with
    Julian> xml2rfc? I would be surprised, because in XML, the character

  No, none!
  I am trying whenever possible to get people who produce such drafts to
switch to xml2rfc specifically to avoid this. A set of macros to do
WORD->rfc2629 would be cool... I'm definitely *NOT* the person to write them
though. 

    Julian> codes 128...159 
    Julian> are used for control characters, so somebody would have to submit
    Julian> them as 
    Julian> valid XML input for an xml2rfc processor to produce them in the
    Julian> output... 

  How about if I had a "smart" editor that saved my XML as &129;  and we
agreed to process that kind of stuff.

]    Internet Security. Have encryption, will travel           |1 Fish/2 Fish [
]  Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |Red F./Blow F [
][email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |strong crypto [
]    At the far end of some dark fiber - wait that's dirt!     |for everyone  [

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:36:57 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Michael
> Richardson
> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:12 AM
> To: Marshall Rose
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
>
>
> ..
>
>   But, more important, is an option to remove characters 128-159 from the
> input. This would include all the MS-ASCII that has started showing up in
> drafts.

Do you have any evidence that any of these drafts were produces with
xml2rfc? I would be surprised, because in XML, the character codes 128...159
are used for control characters, so somebody would have to submit them as
valid XML input for an xml2rfc processor to produce them in the output...

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:12:06 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:09:55 +0900." <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

>>>>> "Marshall" == Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> writes:

    >> i reference a document which has martin d"urst as author... in the xml,
    >> i enter &#252; for the umlaut character, which is legal. in the html, i
    >> simply get the &#252; (which works fine in some browsers, in others it
    >> doesn't, they only support the &uuml; variant), but in the text version
    >> i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
    >> ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
    >> of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
    >> is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?

    Marshall> erik - this is a great problem. i don't have a solution, so
    Marshall> perhaps someone can suggest one. 

    Marshall> here's the dilemna: RFCs are inherently ascii text. because the
    Marshall> html variants aren't considered "real RFCs", i don't have a
    Marshall> problem in doing a lot of things that are outside the realm of
    Marshall> flat text, and certainly julian's xslt demonstrates that. 

  I think it is reasonable to process those things. 
  I think that we need an option to map them to some US-ASCII equivalent.
  But, more important, is an option to remove characters 128-159 from the
input. This would include all the MS-ASCII that has started showing up in
drafts.

]     Internet Security. Have encryption, will travel           |1 Fish/2 Fish [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |Red F./Blow F [
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |strong crypto [
]     At the far end of some dark fiber - wait that's dirt!     |for everyone  [

From: [email-masked] (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:38:30 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked] >
Message-ID: <5935472.1027035507@localhost>

--On 2002-07-18 21.14 +0900 Marshall Rose
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> pp: i realize that this does not address the concerns of people who want
> to include arbitrary characters as processed character text. that will
> require some additional thought to determine the minimal-impact solution.

First: I think the solution is a good "minimal" solution.

But, I ask myself if this is really needed. Because, my guess is that it
will become necesssary to have "examples" (non-normative) which uses
Unicode in html documents and the normative RFC is in ascii still.

I.e. more and more protocols claim to be able to handle Unicode, and I
start to lean towards people _really_ trying to at least doing one example
using it, and not only claiming "let's use UTF-8 and we're fine".

So, if a week more of thinking makes it possible to have one of the
following:

 - Just what you proposed above, because next proposals sucks

 - A mapping table which the author creates from Unicode to ascii

 - Similar extra things like above (html only) but possible to
   use in other locations aswell

...then I think you should think another week.

     paf

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:29:38 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:14 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc
>
>
> hi. after a fine dinner with martin and pete, we suggest the following
> solution to the problem. your comments are solicited, although i ask
> that people refrain from replying to this message until after they have
> thoughtfully considered the issues.
>
> xml2rfc is primarily an rfc preparation tool. accordingly, the default
> mode must always be to produce the 7bit stream that make up an rfc.

Agreed.

> however, xml2rfc can also produce technical memos besides rfcs, and it
> can also produce html instead of 7bit text.

Agreed, with the comment that HTML versions of RFCs/IDs should have the same
content as the text version.

> so, it is suggested to modify the author element, which currently looks
> like this:
>
>     <author fullname='Marshall T. Rose' surname='Rose' initials='M.T.'>
>         ...
>     </author>
>
> to allow two optional child elements
>
>     <author fullname='Marshall T. Rose' surname='Rose' initials='M.T.'>
>         <fullname>arbitrary characters</fullname>
>         <surname>arbitrary characters</surname>
>         ...
>     </author>
>
> when producing the 7bit text for RFCs, these optional elements are
> ignored.
>
> however, when producing html, these optional elements, if present, will
> be consulted. in addition, the value of the encoding attribute to the
> xml directive, e.g.,
>
>     <?xml encoding='EUC-JP'?>
>
> the resulting HTML will contain
>
>     ...
>     <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Language" CONTENT="EUC-JP">
>     </HEAD>

The result encoding should not depend on the input encoding -- for the very
simple reason that an XML processor is not required to report it, and thus
for instance XSLT will have no way to know it.

If this is required, then it should be an *explicit* parameter of the
conversion.

> comments?
>
> /mtr
>
> pp: i realize that this does not address the concerns of people who want
> to include arbitrary characters as processed character text. that will
> require some additional thought to determine the minimal-impact solution.
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:14:01 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] non-ascii names in xml2rfc
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hi. after a fine dinner with martin and pete, we suggest the following
solution to the problem. your comments are solicited, although i ask
that people refrain from replying to this message until after they have
thoughtfully considered the issues.
    
xml2rfc is primarily an rfc preparation tool. accordingly, the default
mode must always be to produce the 7bit stream that make up an rfc.
    
however, xml2rfc can also produce technical memos besides rfcs, and it
can also produce html instead of 7bit text.

so, it is suggested to modify the author element, which currently looks
like this:
    
    <author fullname='Marshall T. Rose' surname='Rose' initials='M.T.'>
        ...
    </author>

to allow two optional child elements
    
    <author fullname='Marshall T. Rose' surname='Rose' initials='M.T.'>
        <fullname>arbitrary characters</fullname>
        <surname>arbitrary characters</surname>
        ...
    </author>
    
when producing the 7bit text for RFCs, these optional elements are
ignored.
    
however, when producing html, these optional elements, if present, will
be consulted. in addition, the value of the encoding attribute to the
xml directive, e.g.,
    
    <?xml encoding='EUC-JP'?>

the resulting HTML will contain

    ...
    <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Language" CONTENT="EUC-JP">
    </HEAD>
    
comments?

/mtr

pp: i realize that this does not address the concerns of people who want
to include arbitrary characters as processed character text. that will
require some additional thought to determine the minimal-impact solution.

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:13:00 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 3:10 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
>
>
> > i reference a document which has martin d"urst as author... in the xml,
> > i enter &#252; for the umlaut character, which is legal. in the html, i
> > simply get the &#252; (which works fine in some browsers, in others it
> > doesn't, they only support the &uuml; variant), but in the text version
> > i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
> > ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> > of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> > is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?
>
> erik - this is a great problem. i don't have a solution, so
> perhaps someone can suggest one.
>
> here's the dilemna: RFCs are inherently ascii text. because the
> html variants aren't considered "real RFCs", i don't have a
> problem in doing a lot of things that are outside the realm of
> flat text, and certainly julian's xslt demonstrates that.
>
> when faced with the problem of what to do when the input has
> numeric character entities and the output is a text rfc, i
> decided not to force the issue.
>
> now that it is an issue, what do folks suggest?
>
> for the purpose of simplification, let's assume that the input is
> always UTF-8.

Using XML, that's irrelevant. The XML processor reports characters to the
application, not octets.

My view:

- it's not feasible to map *all* Unicode characters to some *meaningful*
sequence of ASCII characters,

- RFCs do not allow non-ASCII characters, so xml2rfc shouldn't produce them,

- when producing HTML versions of RFC, their content (not display) should be
identical to the text version, so I think it's a VERY bad idea to apply
different rules,

- it may make sense to relax the rules for people that actually produce
documents NOT intended for IETF submission (but that was not the case in the
original request, right?).

Proposals:

If people are keen to use "&uuml;" for (u-umlaut) in their *input*
documents, they can do that. They just have to define the entity to map to
"ue" (doctype declaration).  This should force any xml2rfc implementation to
use the ASCII sequence "ue" rather than u-umlaut.

When actually producing documents for IETF submission, a xml2rfc processor
SHOULD reject input documents containing non-ASCII characters (maybe with an
override flag). I may add that to my XSLT implementation soon.

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:46:07 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <4863797.1027010183@localhost>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4312106.1026999074@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4496846.1027002366@localhost> <4863797.1027010183@localhost>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> Absolutely right. It works! Thanks!

solid.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:36:23 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <4496846.1027002366@localhost>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4312106.1026999074@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4496846.1027002366@localhost>
Message-ID: <4863797.1027010183@localhost>

--On 2002-07-18 14.26 +0900 Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]> wrote:

> --On 2002-07-18 13.48 +0900 Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>>> I am _VERY_ happy with the webpage, and use that all the time.
>> 
>> ok. if you want, try the latest release. it's supposed to work without
>> having to install the libraries!
> 
> Aha, I will do so.

Absolutely right. It works! Thanks!

   paf

From: [email-masked] (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:26:06 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4312106.1026999074@localhost> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <4496846.1027002366@localhost>

--On 2002-07-18 13.48 +0900 Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I am _VERY_ happy with the webpage, and use that all the time.
> 
> ok. if you want, try the latest release. it's supposed to work without
> having to install the libraries!

Aha, I will do so.

   paf

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:48:17 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <4312106.1026999074@localhost>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost> <[email-masked]> <4312106.1026999074@localhost>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> > ideally, the table has two columns:
> > 	column 1 has the numeric entity code
> > 	column 2 has one or more ascii characters to substitute
> 
> I'll see if that exists.

thanks.

> I am _VERY_ happy with the webpage, and use that all the time.

ok. if you want, try the latest release. it's supposed to work without having to install the libraries!

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:31:14 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <4312106.1026999074@localhost>

--On 2002-07-18 11.26 +0900 Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> wrote:

> ideally, the table has two columns:
> 	column 1 has the numeric entity code
> 	column 2 has one or more ascii characters to substitute

I'll see if that exists.

>> And, no, I still don't know TCL...sorry. I know it so badly I have only
>> partially got xml2rfc to work on my laptop. I can even less help hacking
>> even though I would like to.
> 
> what trouble are you having? you shouldn't need to be able to program tcl
> to get xml2rfc to run on your system.

I know. The programming part had to do with the table stuff. The
installation issues have to do with me needing TCL, SGML/XML libraries and
xml2rfc tcl script -- all installed in the correct places so TCL find the
libraries. Last time I installed the things I also found that it was very
important the libraries needed are found and included in the correct order,
etc etc etc.

So, I don't know enough of TCL to be able to install libraries...

Anyways, off topic.

I am _VERY_ happy with the webpage, and use that all the time.

   paf

From: [email-masked] (Dan Kohn)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:17:47 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

The editor of <http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/> is shown as 4 kanji characters followed by ISHIKAWA Masayasu in parentheses.  

I'd suggest that in HTML it should look just like that, and in text format it should show the 4 Unicode characters as XML entities representing the UTF-8 characters (e.g., "&#DE").  In either case, showing the ASCII transliteration is essential.

          - dan
--
Dan Kohn <mailto:[email-masked]>
<http://www.dankohn.com/>  <tel:+1-650-327-2600>
Essays announced on <mailto:[email-masked]> 

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrik Fältström [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 18:51
To: Marshall Rose; [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters

--On 2002-07-18 10.09 +0900 Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> wrote:

> now that it is an issue, what do folks suggest?
> 
> for the purpose of simplification, let's assume that the input is always
> UTF-8.

I think the only way of solving the issue is to have a translation table
for those characters somewhere.

For Unicode, one can have one major table somewhere, but because that
doesn't exist, and different people have different "favourite" mappings, is
the following possible:

 - If a document include non-ascii characters, use a translation
   table which exists somewhere in the XML (I guess that is possible)
   to map to ASCII when txt is produced
 - If a document when txt is produced, some characters end up being
   non-ascii even after translation table is applied, give errors

And, no, I still don't know TCL...sorry. I know it so badly I have only
partially got xml2rfc to work on my laptop. I can even less help hacking
even though I would like to.

   paf

_______________________________________________
xml2rfc mailing list
[email-masked]
http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:26:05 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <4071233.1026989440@localhost>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <4071233.1026989440@localhost>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> I think the only way of solving the issue is to have a translation table
> for those characters somewhere.

someone send me a table and it's trivial for me to install.

ideally, the table has two columns:
	column 1 has the numeric entity code
	column 2 has one or more ascii characters to substitute

> And, no, I still don't know TCL...sorry. I know it so badly I have only
> partially got xml2rfc to work on my laptop. I can even less help hacking
> even though I would like to.

what trouble are you having? you shouldn't need to be able to program tcl to get xml2rfc to run on your system.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:50:40 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <4071233.1026989440@localhost>

--On 2002-07-18 10.09 +0900 Marshall Rose <[email-masked]> wrote:

> now that it is an issue, what do folks suggest?
> 
> for the purpose of simplification, let's assume that the input is always
> UTF-8.

I think the only way of solving the issue is to have a translation table
for those characters somewhere.

For Unicode, one can have one major table somewhere, but because that
doesn't exist, and different people have different "favourite" mappings, is
the following possible:

 - If a document include non-ascii characters, use a translation
   table which exists somewhere in the XML (I guess that is possible)
   to map to ASCII when txt is produced
 - If a document when txt is produced, some characters end up being
   non-ascii even after translation table is applied, give errors

And, no, I still don't know TCL...sorry. I know it so badly I have only
partially got xml2rfc to work on my laptop. I can even less help hacking
even though I would like to.

   paf

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:09:55 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> i reference a document which has martin d"urst as author... in the xml,
> i enter &#252; for the umlaut character, which is legal. in the html, i
> simply get the &#252; (which works fine in some browsers, in others it
> doesn't, they only support the &uuml; variant), but in the text version
> i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
> ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?

erik - this is a great problem. i don't have a solution, so perhaps someone can suggest one.

here's the dilemna: RFCs are inherently ascii text. because the html variants aren't considered "real RFCs", i don't have a problem in doing a lot of things that are outside the realm of flat text, and certainly julian's xslt demonstrates that.

when faced with the problem of what to do when the input has numeric character entities and the output is a text rfc, i decided not to force the issue.

now that it is an issue, what do folks suggest?

for the purpose of simplification, let's assume that the input is always UTF-8.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Carl Malamud)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi -

The way I handle that for non-RFC applications is with some simple
postprocessing ... I use the UTF-8 characters in my XML.  That does
the "right" thing for html.  For my ascii versions, I use
sed/perl/.... to do a simple substitution.

For example, in one document I want an official Yen sign in my
html.  I use &#xA5; in XML, then I substitute Y for &#xA5; in
the ascii.

It's a hack, but it works.

Regards,

Carl

> > From: [email-masked]
> > [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Erik Wilde
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:12 AM
> > To: Julian Reschke
> > Cc: xml2rfc
> > Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
> >
> >
> > hi.
> >
> > > Clearly a browser bug....
> >
> > yup. but since i cannot change other people's browsers, it would be a
> > plus to have the variant which is supported by most browsers...
> >
> > > > i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not
> > what i want.
> > > > ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> > > > of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> > > > is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?
> > > Not at all. If you're producing IETF documents, they MUST NOT contain
> > > non-ASCII characters.
> >
> > "ue" is not a non-ASCII character, it is two ASCII characters...
> 
> Yes. But I think it is unreasonable to expect xml2rfc to have ASCII
> transcriptions of any Unicode character in the universe. So the easiest fix
> is not to have them in the input.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
> 

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:28:34 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Erik Wilde
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:12 AM
> To: Julian Reschke
> Cc: xml2rfc
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
>
>
> hi.
>
> > Clearly a browser bug....
>
> yup. but since i cannot change other people's browsers, it would be a
> plus to have the variant which is supported by most browsers...
>
> > > i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not
> what i want.
> > > ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> > > of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> > > is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?
> > Not at all. If you're producing IETF documents, they MUST NOT contain
> > non-ASCII characters.
>
> "ue" is not a non-ASCII character, it is two ASCII characters...

Yes. But I think it is unreasonable to expect xml2rfc to have ASCII
transcriptions of any Unicode character in the universe. So the easiest fix
is not to have them in the input.

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:11:39 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hi.

> Clearly a browser bug....

yup. but since i cannot change other people's browsers, it would be a
plus to have the variant which is supported by most browsers...

> > i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
> > ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> > of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> > is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?
> Not at all. If you're producing IETF documents, they MUST NOT contain
> non-ASCII characters.

"ue" is not a non-ASCII character, it is two ASCII characters...

cheers,

dret.

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:01:04 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Erik Wilde
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:41 AM
> To: xml2rfc
> Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
>
>
> hello.
>
> i reference a document which has martin d"urst as author... in the xml,
> i enter &#252; for the umlaut character, which is legal. in the html, i
> simply get the &#252; (which works fine in some browsers, in others it
> doesn't, they only support the &uuml; variant), but in the text version

Clearly a browser bug....

> i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
> ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
> of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
> is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?

Not at all. If you're producing IETF documents, they MUST NOT contain
non-ASCII characters.

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:41:14 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] handling of non-ascii characters
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hello.

i reference a document which has martin d"urst as author... in the xml,
i enter &#252; for the umlaut character, which is legal. in the html, i
simply get the &#252; (which works fine in some browsers, in others it
doesn't, they only support the &uuml; variant), but in the text version
i get the character sequence "&#252;", which clearly is not what i want.
ideally, a "ue" would be generated, but i do understand that this kind
of non-ascii to ascii conversion can get out of hand very quickly. how
is one supposed to deal with non-ascii characters?

thanks and cheers,

erik wilde  - tel:+41-1-6325132 - fax:+41-1-6321035
       mailto:[email-masked] -  http://dret.net/
       computer engineering and networks laboratory
       swiss federal institute of technology  (eth)
       * try not. do, or do not. there is no try. *

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:11:41 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> Well, the problem to be solved here is not a coding issue. XSLT is good at
> transforming XML to XML, but you still need to decide *yourself* what kind
> of transformation you wish to achieve. People who know more about BibTeX
> will have to think about *how* they want to map their elements into the
> RFC2629 reference element. I'm happy to help extending the XSLT if somebody
> specifies what it should do additionally.

right, and that's why i wanted stephen to talk to you. or perhaps the two bibtexml maintainers can give you some advice.

i haven't used BiBTeX for over a decade, so i'm probably not the person to make decisions about the mappings.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:00:02 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 3:24 AM
> To: Julian Reschke
> Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] feature request
>
>
> julian - thanks.
>
> can you spend some time with stephen to figure out how much
> further you need to take this to make it useful?
>
> i agree with the issues you raise (the 2629 format not having
> containers for a lot of stuff), but i don't think a loss of
> information is an issue for those containers.

Well, the problem to be solved here is not a coding issue. XSLT is good at
transforming XML to XML, but you still need to decide *yourself* what kind
of transformation you wish to achieve. People who know more about BibTeX
will have to think about *how* they want to map their elements into the
RFC2629 reference element. I'm happy to help extending the XSLT if somebody
specifies what it should do additionally.

To those that don't know how to run an XSLT transformation....

1) Get a command line XSLT processor such as MSXSL (Windows), xsltproc
(Linux), Instant Saxon (Windows) or one of the many Java engines,

2) check out the command line usage and run the transform.

For instance

msxsl sourcefile.xml transformation.xslt > result.xml

That's it.

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:24:18 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

julian - thanks.

can you spend some time with stephen to figure out how much further you need to take this to make it useful?

i agree with the issues you raise (the 2629 format not having containers for a lot of stuff), but i don't think a loss of information is an issue for those containers.

thanks!

/mtr

ps: if you get the xslt to a point that you're happy with, we can give it to the bibtexml folks to include in their distribution. i suppose we can also put up a web site that does the translation...

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:19:35 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] making month in <date> optional
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> that's the problem. i had relaxed my local dtd, but since i am using the
> web service, this did not help me very much...

okay. i've updated the .dtd on the service site.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:16:35 +0900
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> i have simply copied the reference text from the txt version into the
> title attribute. works fine in ie. all you have to take care of is
> proper quoting, otherwise it is rather straightforward.

thanks. i'll add it.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:13:33 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C22A66.B4F4FB60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Marshall Rose
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] feature request
>
>
> > Try to use rfc2629.xslt to produce the HTML  -- it does that.
>
> julian - did you see my earlier note? viz., look at the attached
> bibXML-strict.dtd. if you had an xml document that conformed to
> that, how hard would it be to write xslt to convert it to an xml
> document that conformed to 2629's reference element?

Well,

XSLT is a programming language which is good in re-arranging tree
structures. So things like these are easily done unless the conversion
problem *itself* is problematic.

Attached is an example that converts a subset of the DTD. Writing it
uncovered already unconvered the following issues:

- RFC2629 allows only ASCII text content (author names)
- RFC2629 asks for details about the author names (break down initials,
surname) that bibtexml doesn't offer (so one would need string parsing and
heuristics to regenerate these)
- RFC2629 doesn't have container elements for many bibtexml elements, such
as publisher information/address (so it's good for RFCs, but not for books),
page ranges...

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C22A66.B4F4FB60
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="bibteXML2rfc2629.xslt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="bibteXML2rfc2629.xslt"

<xsl:transform xmlns:xsl=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform" =
version=3D"1.0"
  xmlns:bibtex=3D"http://bibtexml.sf.net/"
>

<xsl:output doctype-system=3D"rfc2629.dtd" indent=3D"yes"/>

<xsl:template match=3D"/">
  <references>
    <xsl:apply-templates select=3D"//bibtex:entry" />
  </references>
</xsl:template>

<!-- template for mapping -->

<xsl:template match=3D"bibtex:entry">
  <reference anchor=3D"{@id}">
    <xsl:apply-templates />
  </reference>
</xsl:template>

<xsl:template =
match=3D"bibtex:article|bibtex:book|bibtex:manual|bibtex:techreport">
  <front>
    <title><xsl:value-of select=3D"bibtex:title"/></title>
    <xsl:call-template name=3D"insertAuthors">
      <xsl:with-param name=3D"authors" select=3D"bibtex:author" />
    </xsl:call-template>
    <xsl:if test=3D"bibtex:organization">
      <organization><xsl:value-of select=3D"bibtex:organization" =
/></organization>
    </xsl:if>
    <date>
      <xsl:if test=3D"bibtex:year"><xsl:attribute =
name=3D"year"><xsl:value-of =
select=3D"bibtex:year"/></xsl:attribute></xsl:if>
    </date>
  </front>
  <xsl:choose>
    <xsl:when test=3D"bibtex:journal and bibtex:volume">
      <seriesInfo name=3D"{bibtex:journal}" value=3D"{bibtex:volume}"/>
    </xsl:when>
    <xsl:otherwise/>
  </xsl:choose>
</xsl:template>

<!-- utility templates -->

<xsl:template name=3D"insertAuthor">
  <xsl:param name=3D"author" />
  <author fullname=3D"{$author}">
    <!-- surname missing... -->
    <!-- initials missing... -->
  </author> =20
</xsl:template>

<xsl:template name=3D"insertAuthors">
  <xsl:param name=3D"authors" />
  <xsl:choose>
    <xsl:when test=3D"contains($authors, ';')">
      <xsl:call-template name=3D"insertAuthor">
        <xsl:with-param name=3D"author" =
select=3D"normalize-space(substring-before($authors, ';'))"/>
      </xsl:call-template>
      <xsl:call-template name=3D"insertAuthors">
        <xsl:with-param name=3D"authors" =
select=3D"normalize-space(substring-after($authors, ';'))"/>
      </xsl:call-template>
    </xsl:when>
    <xsl:otherwise>
      <xsl:call-template name=3D"insertAuthor">
        <xsl:with-param name=3D"author" =
select=3D"normalize-space($authors)"/>
      </xsl:call-template>
    </xsl:otherwise>
  </xsl:choose>
</xsl:template>

</xsl:transform>
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C22A66.B4F4FB60--

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:57:56 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] making month in <date> optional
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hello.

> > sorry to bring this up again, i am sure this is not the first time: in
> > my opinion, date should not be required to have a month attribute. what
> > do i do if i simply do not know the month of publication? is there any
> > suggested practice how to circumvent the dtd's restriction?
> i suppose this is reasonable, although the next message from someone
> will ask for an optional year.

well, i think that many people will have bibliographic references with
no months, but only very few will have bibliographic references with no
years...

> right now xml2rfc.tcl will do the right thing if the month is absent or
> empty. the web-based service will complain because it validates against
> the dtd. i suppose we can relax the dtd.

that's the problem. i had relaxed my local dtd, but since i am using the
web service, this did not help me very much...

cheers,

dret.

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:07:38 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hello.

> thanks for the note. just for grins, send me an example of an input
> fragment and an html fragment that you would expect to be generated.

ok, here we go:

input:

the wonderful RFC 2629 <xref target="RFC2629"/>
...
<reference anchor="RFC2629">...</reference>

output:

the wonderful RFC 2629 <a href="#RFC2629" title='Rose, M., "Writing I-Ds
and RFCs using XML", RFC 2629, June 1999.'>[RFC2629]</a>

i have simply copied the reference text from the txt version into the
title attribute. works fine in ie. all you have to take care of is
proper quoting, otherwise it is rather straightforward.

cheers,

dret.

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:19:45 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] making month in <date> optional
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> sorry to bring this up again, i am sure this is not the first time: in
> my opinion, date should not be required to have a month attribute. what
> do i do if i simply do not know the month of publication? is there any
> suggested practice how to circumvent the dtd's restriction?

i suppose this is reasonable, although the next message from someone
will ask for an optional year.
    
right now xml2rfc.tcl will do the right thing if the month is absent or
empty. the web-based service will complain because it validates against
the dtd. i suppose we can relax the dtd.
    
/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:49 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> hi there.
> 
> this is an idea for one of those rainy days... it would be very nice to
> see the title attribute of html a elements being used. ie displays
> titles as tool tips, and it would be a handy feature to see this
> behavior being supported in the generated html. for example, for
> bibliography references, put the text appearing in the references
> section into the title attribute, so that i only have to mouse over the
> reference to see what it is referring to. similar ideas could be applied
> to all kinds of references.
> 
> this is just an idea, no urgent request... cheers,

thanks for the note. just for grins, send me an example of an input fragment and an html fragment that you would expect to be generated.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:39:02 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Multipart_Thu__11_Jul_2002_20:39:02_-0700_08969200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Try to use rfc2629.xslt to produce the HTML  -- it does that.

julian - did you see my earlier note? viz., look at the attached bibXML-strict.dtd. if you had an xml document that conformed to that, how hard would it be to write xslt to convert it to an xml document that conformed to 2629's reference element?

/mtr

--Multipart_Thu__11_Jul_2002_20:39:02_-0700_08969200
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
 name="bibteXML-strict.dtd"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="bibteXML-strict.dtd"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

--Multipart_Thu__11_Jul_2002_20:39:02_-0700_08969200--

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:34:52 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> If you want to get fancy, then you'll want to provide all of these options:
> 
> 	prefix (what to place before the number, default "")
> 	suffix (what to place after the number, default ". ")
> 	starting value (what number to start with, default "1")
> 	these styles
> 		1, 2, 3, 4 (numbers)
> 		a, b, c, d (letters)
> 		i, ii, iii, iv (roman numbers)
> 		A, B, C, D (capital letters)
> 		I, II, III, IV (capital roman numbers)
> 	increment (default "+1")
> 	indent/dedent level (# of spaces to indent)

thanks, but complexity is its own reward.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:23:36 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]>		<[email-masked]>		<[email-masked]>		<00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc>		<[email-masked]>		<02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc>		<[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Yes, Tony, all these options look very useful to me. I used to use FrameMaker a
lot and liked these options.

-Qiaobing

Tony Hansen wrote:
> 
> If you want to get fancy, then you'll want to provide all of these options:
> 
>         prefix (what to place before the number, default "")
>         suffix (what to place after the number, default ". ")
>         starting value (what number to start with, default "1")
>         these styles
>                 1, 2, 3, 4 (numbers)
>                 a, b, c, d (letters)
>                 i, ii, iii, iv (roman numbers)
>                 A, B, C, D (capital letters)
>                 I, II, III, IV (capital roman numbers)
>         increment (default "+1")
>         indent/dedent level (# of spaces to indent)
> 
> FYI, Microsoft word cycles between the styles "1", "a", and "i" as you
> increase indentation levels.
> 
>         Tony Hansen
>         [email-masked]
> 
> Qiaobing Xie wrote:
> > Hi, Marshall,
> >
> > Marshall Rose wrote:
> >
> >>>Exactly the same behavior as we get today when we nest "numbers" lists, except
> >>>that if one (or more) of the nested lists is made "alphabet" style, its 1., 2., 3,
> >>>... would be replaced with a., b., c., ... (or A., B., C., ...)
> >>
> >>thanks. so what you're saying is: depending on the level of nesting use "a-z" or "A-Z".
> >
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >
> >>okay, then the two other questions are:
> >>
> >>1. what should be used if there are more than 26 items in the list, e.g., if "a" is used for the first, should "aa" be used for the 27th, "ab" used for the 28th, etc.?
> >
> >
> > This sounds very reasonable to me.
> >
> >
> >>2. in deciding whether to do "a-z" or "A-Z", should the nesting be counted as the total depth of the item, or just the depth of the item inside alphabetic lists? in other words, are you talking about
> >>
> >>A.
> >>  1.
> >>    a.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I'd prefer the option above. In practice, this would be very useful.
> >
> > In addition (stop me if I am asking for too much), could there be an optional
> > field "itemHead" added to the "numbers" list? I.e., currently when we do:
> >
> > <list style="numbers">
> >   <t> item text 1... </t>
> >   <t> item text 1... </t>
> > </list>
> >
> > we get:
> >
> >   1. item text 1...
> >
> >   2. item text 2...
> >
> > With the new option, if we do:
> >
> > <list style="numbers" itemHead="Rule-">
> >   <t> item text 1... </t>
> >   <t> item text 1... </t>
> > </list>
> >
> > we will get:
> >
> >   Rule-1. item text 1...
> >
> >   Rule-2. item text 2...
> >
> > thx and regards,
> > -Qiaobing
> >
> >
> >>or
> >>
> >>A.
> >>  1.
> >>    A.
> >>
> >>and, at the very top-level, are we starting with "A" or "a"?
> >>
> >>questions, questions, questions.
> >>
> >>/mtr
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xml2rfc mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc

From: [email-masked] (Tony Hansen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:40:58 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]>		<[email-masked]>		<[email-masked]>		<00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc>		<[email-masked]>		<02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc>		<[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

If you want to get fancy, then you'll want to provide all of these options:

	prefix (what to place before the number, default "")
	suffix (what to place after the number, default ". ")
	starting value (what number to start with, default "1")
	these styles
		1, 2, 3, 4 (numbers)
		a, b, c, d (letters)
		i, ii, iii, iv (roman numbers)
		A, B, C, D (capital letters)
		I, II, III, IV (capital roman numbers)
	increment (default "+1")
	indent/dedent level (# of spaces to indent)

FYI, Microsoft word cycles between the styles "1", "a", and "i" as you 
increase indentation levels.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

Qiaobing Xie wrote:
> Hi, Marshall,
> 
> Marshall Rose wrote:
> 
>>>Exactly the same behavior as we get today when we nest "numbers" lists, except
>>>that if one (or more) of the nested lists is made "alphabet" style, its 1., 2., 3,
>>>... would be replaced with a., b., c., ... (or A., B., C., ...)
>>
>>thanks. so what you're saying is: depending on the level of nesting use "a-z" or "A-Z".
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
>>okay, then the two other questions are:
>>
>>1. what should be used if there are more than 26 items in the list, e.g., if "a" is used for the first, should "aa" be used for the 27th, "ab" used for the 28th, etc.?
> 
> 
> This sounds very reasonable to me.
> 
> 
>>2. in deciding whether to do "a-z" or "A-Z", should the nesting be counted as the total depth of the item, or just the depth of the item inside alphabetic lists? in other words, are you talking about
>>
>>A.
>>  1.
>>    a.
>>
> 
> 
> I'd prefer the option above. In practice, this would be very useful.
> 
> In addition (stop me if I am asking for too much), could there be an optional
> field "itemHead" added to the "numbers" list? I.e., currently when we do: 
> 
> <list style="numbers">
>   <t> item text 1... </t>
>   <t> item text 1... </t>
> </list>
> 
> we get:
> 
>   1. item text 1...
> 
>   2. item text 2...
> 
> With the new option, if we do:
> 
> <list style="numbers" itemHead="Rule-">
>   <t> item text 1... </t>
>   <t> item text 1... </t>
> </list>
> 
> we will get:
> 
>   Rule-1. item text 1...
> 
>   Rule-2. item text 2...
> 
> thx and regards,
> -Qiaobing
> 
> 
>>or
>>
>>A.
>>  1.
>>    A.
>>
>>and, at the very top-level, are we starting with "A" or "a"?
>>
>>questions, questions, questions.
>>
>>/mtr
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:17:41 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] problems with references
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
>   I just switched platforms (NetBSD->Debian) and installed 1.13.
> 
>   I gather that the way to include references has changed. I got caught by
> this. Having it in bold in a CHANGES file would have saved me an hour of
> scratching my head.
> 
> %include.reference.RFC.0791;
> 
> - ->
> 
> <?rfc include="reference.RFC.0791" ?>

yes, the "purist XML" crowd was complaining about the "%include" thing, so the other way got added. and then the "purist XML" crowd also wanted to do the other way of XML includes (don't ask), and i decided that maintaining 3 incompatible include mechanisms was one too many, so "%include" got removed.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Michael Richardson)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:03:19 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] problems with references
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

  I just switched platforms (NetBSD->Debian) and installed 1.13.

  I gather that the way to include references has changed. I got caught by
this. Having it in bold in a CHANGES file would have saved me an hour of
scratching my head.

%include.reference.RFC.0791;

- ->

<?rfc include="reference.RFC.0791" ?>

  I just thought I'd post in case others get caught by this.

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another NetBSD/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:10:13 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] making month in <date> optional
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hello.

sorry to bring this up again, i am sure this is not the first time: in
my opinion, date should not be required to have a month attribute. what
do i do if i simply do not know the month of publication? is there any
suggested practice how to circumvent the dtd's restriction?

cheers,

erik wilde  - tel:+41-1-6325132 - fax:+41-1-6321035
       mailto:[email-masked] -  http://dret.net/
       computer engineering and networks laboratory
       swiss federal institute of technology  (eth)
       * try not. do, or do not. there is no try. *

From: [email-masked] (Julian Reschke)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:13 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Try to use rfc2629.xslt to produce the HTML  -- it does that.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Erik Wilde
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:24 AM
> To: xml2rfc
> Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
> 
> 
> hi there.
> 
> this is an idea for one of those rainy days... it would be very nice to
> see the title attribute of html a elements being used. ie displays
> titles as tool tips, and it would be a handy feature to see this
> behavior being supported in the generated html. for example, for
> bibliography references, put the text appearing in the references
> section into the title attribute, so that i only have to mouse over the
> reference to see what it is referring to. similar ideas could be applied
> to all kinds of references.
> 
> this is just an idea, no urgent request... cheers,
> 
> erik wilde  - tel:+41-1-6325132 - fax:+41-1-6321035
>        mailto:[email-masked] -  http://dret.net/
>        computer engineering and networks laboratory
>        swiss federal institute of technology  (eth)
>        * try not. do, or do not. there is no try. *
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
> 

From: [email-masked] (Erik Wilde)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:24:29 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] feature request
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

hi there.

this is an idea for one of those rainy days... it would be very nice to
see the title attribute of html a elements being used. ie displays
titles as tool tips, and it would be a handy feature to see this
behavior being supported in the generated html. for example, for
bibliography references, put the text appearing in the references
section into the title attribute, so that i only have to mouse over the
reference to see what it is referring to. similar ideas could be applied
to all kinds of references.

this is just an idea, no urgent request... cheers,

erik wilde  - tel:+41-1-6325132 - fax:+41-1-6321035
       mailto:[email-masked] -  http://dret.net/
       computer engineering and networks laboratory
       swiss federal institute of technology  (eth)
       * try not. do, or do not. there is no try. *

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:04:32 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Multipart_Wed__10_Jul_2002_16:04:32_-0700_0847b200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> In addition (stop me if I am asking for too much), could there be an optional
> field "itemHead" added to the "numbers" list? I.e., currently when we do: 
> ...
    
try
    
    style='format ...%d...'
    
where "%d" will be automatically expanded into the ordinal offset of the
item. you can also control the level of indentation by putting a
"hangIndent" attribute in the <list/> element.
    
/mtr

ps: attached, you will find a copy of xml2rfc.tcl that will handle 

	style='letters'

see if it does what you want. if you use the web-based service instead of running xml2rfc on your own system, let me know and i'll update the website.

--Multipart_Wed__10_Jul_2002_16:04:32_-0700_0847b200
Content-Type: application/x-tcl;
 name="xml2rfc.tcl"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="xml2rfc.tcl"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

--Multipart_Wed__10_Jul_2002_16:04:32_-0700_0847b200--

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:39:00 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi, Marshall,

Marshall Rose wrote:
> 
> > Exactly the same behavior as we get today when we nest "numbers" lists, except
> > that if one (or more) of the nested lists is made "alphabet" style, its 1., 2., 3,
> > ... would be replaced with a., b., c., ... (or A., B., C., ...)
> 
> thanks. so what you're saying is: depending on the level of nesting use "a-z" or "A-Z".

Yes.

> 
> okay, then the two other questions are:
> 
> 1. what should be used if there are more than 26 items in the list, e.g., if "a" is used for the first, should "aa" be used for the 27th, "ab" used for the 28th, etc.?

This sounds very reasonable to me.

> 
> 2. in deciding whether to do "a-z" or "A-Z", should the nesting be counted as the total depth of the item, or just the depth of the item inside alphabetic lists? in other words, are you talking about
> 
> A.
>   1.
>     a.
> 

I'd prefer the option above. In practice, this would be very useful.

In addition (stop me if I am asking for too much), could there be an optional
field "itemHead" added to the "numbers" list? I.e., currently when we do: 

<list style="numbers">
  <t> item text 1... </t>
  <t> item text 1... </t>
</list>

we get:

  1. item text 1...

  2. item text 2...

With the new option, if we do:

<list style="numbers" itemHead="Rule-">
  <t> item text 1... </t>
  <t> item text 1... </t>
</list>

we will get:

  Rule-1. item text 1...

  Rule-2. item text 2...

thx and regards,
-Qiaobing

> or
> 
> A.
>   1.
>     A.
> 
> and, at the very top-level, are we starting with "A" or "a"?
> 
> questions, questions, questions.
> 
> /mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:13:47 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> Exactly the same behavior as we get today when we nest "numbers" lists, except
> that if one (or more) of the nested lists is made "alphabet" style, its 1., 2., 3,
> ... would be replaced with a., b., c., ... (or A., B., C., ...)

thanks. so what you're saying is: depending on the level of nesting use "a-z" or "A-Z".

okay, then the two other questions are:

1. what should be used if there are more than 26 items in the list, e.g., if "a" is used for the first, should "aa" be used for the 27th, "ab" used for the 28th, etc.?

2. in deciding whether to do "a-z" or "A-Z", should the nesting be counted as the total depth of the item, or just the depth of the item inside alphabetic lists? in other words, are you talking about

A. 
  1.
    a.

or

A.
  1.
    A.

and, at the very top-level, are we starting with "A" or "a"?

questions, questions, questions.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:15:08 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]> <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Exactly the same behavior as we get today when we nest "numbers" lists, except
that if one (or more) of the nested lists is made "alphabet" style, its 1., 2., 3,
... would be replaced with a., b., c., ... (or A., B., C., ...)

Say, we want to nest an "alphabet" inside a "numbers" by:

<list style="numbers">
  <t> text for number 1 </t>

  <t> text for number 2 (head)
     <list style="alphabet">
       <t> text for item 1 ... </t>

       <t> text for item 2 ... </t>

       <t> text for item 3 ... </t>
     </list>
     tail for number 2 ...
  </t>

  <t> text for number 3 </t>
</list>

we would get:

  1. text for number 1

  2. text for number 2 (head)

     a. text for item 1 ...

     b. text for item 2 ...

     c. text for item 3 ...

     tail for number 2 ...

  3. text for number 3 

regards,
-Qiaobing

Marshall Rose wrote:
> 
> uh, what do nested lists produce? that's why i asked for "exactly the
> behavior"...
> 
> /mtr
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Qiaobing Xie" <[email-masked]>
> To: "Marshall Rose" <[email-masked]>
> Cc: "Randall Stewart" <[email-masked]>;
> <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
> 
> > Hi, Marshall,
> >
> > Marshall Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > > I just wonder if there is already a <list
> > > > style="alphabet"> defined.
> > >
> > > no. specify exactly the behavior you're looking for and i'll look into
> it.
> >
> > I'd like to do something like:
> >
> > <list style="alphabet">
> >   <t> text for item 1 ... </t>
> >   <t> text for item 2 ... </t>
> >   <t> text for item 3 ... </t>
> > </list>
> >
> > and get:
> >
> >   a. text for item 1 ...
> >
> >   b. text for item 2 ...
> >
> >   c. text for item 3 ...
> >
> > And if not too much trouble, a variant using cap letters, i.e.,
> >
> >   A. text for item 1 ...
> >
> >   B. text for item 2 ...
> >
> >   C. text for item 3 ...
> >
> > regards,
> > -Qiaobing
> >
> > >
> > > /mtr
> >

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:52:49 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <02bd01c227a3$bb5b71c0$8c00000a@easyinc>

uh, what do nested lists produce? that's why i asked for "exactly the
behavior"...

/mtr

----- Original Message -----
From: "Qiaobing Xie" <[email-masked]>
To: "Marshall Rose" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Randall Stewart" <[email-masked]>;
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question

> Hi, Marshall,
>
> Marshall Rose wrote:
> >
> > > I just wonder if there is already a <list
> > > style="alphabet"> defined.
> >
> > no. specify exactly the behavior you're looking for and i'll look into
it.
>
> I'd like to do something like:
>
> <list style="alphabet">
>   <t> text for item 1 ... </t>
>   <t> text for item 2 ... </t>
>   <t> text for item 3 ... </t>
> </list>
>
> and get:
>
>   a. text for item 1 ...
>
>   b. text for item 2 ...
>
>   c. text for item 3 ...
>
> And if not too much trouble, a variant using cap letters, i.e.,
>
>   A. text for item 1 ...
>
>   B. text for item 2 ...
>
>   C. text for item 3 ...
>
> regards,
> -Qiaobing
>
> >
> > /mtr
>

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:45:51 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi, Marshall,

Marshall Rose wrote:
> 
> > I just wonder if there is already a <list
> > style="alphabet"> defined.
> 
> no. specify exactly the behavior you're looking for and i'll look into it.

I'd like to do something like:

<list style="alphabet">
  <t> text for item 1 ... </t>
  <t> text for item 2 ... </t>
  <t> text for item 3 ... </t>
</list>

and get:

  a. text for item 1 ...

  b. text for item 2 ...

  c. text for item 3 ...

And if not too much trouble, a variant using cap letters, i.e.,

  A. text for item 1 ...

  B. text for item 2 ...

  C. text for item 3 ...

regards,
-Qiaobing

> 
> /mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:48:07 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <00e901c22789$ee394a50$8c00000a@easyinc>

> I just wonder if there is already a <list
> style="alphabet"> defined.

no. specify exactly the behavior you're looking for and i'll look into it.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:06:44 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Randy,

Yes, your suggestion will certainly work... however, all the numbering in the
nested lists would then become manual... I just wonder if there is already a <list
style="alphabet"> defined.

-Q

Randall Stewart wrote:
> 
> Q:
> 
> Try:
> <t><list style="hanging">
> <t hangText="1.">
> text for 1
> </t>
> <t><list style="hanging">
> <t hangText="1a)
> ">
> Text for 1a
> </t>
> <t hangText="1b)">
> Text for 1b
> </t>
> </list></t>
> <t hangText="2.">
> text for 2
> </t>
> </list></t>
> 
> R
> 
> Qiaobing Xie wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've just started to use xml to write my I-Ds. I'd like to know how to do the
> > following nested lists in xml:
> >
> >  1. ...
> >  2. ..
> >    2a. ...
> >    2b. ...
> >  3. ...
> >
> > or
> >
> >  1. ...
> >  2. ..
> >    a. ...
> >    b. ...
> >  3. ...
> >
> > or
> >
> >  1. ...
> >  2. ..
> >    Rule1: ...
> >    Rule2: ...
> >  3. ...
> >
> > I tried to nest the "numbers" list elements, but ended up with:
> >
> >  1. ...
> >  2. ..
> >    1. ...
> >    2. ...
> >  3. ...
> >
> > regards,
> > -Qiaobing
> > _______________________________________________
> > xml2rfc mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
> 
> --
> Randall R. Stewart
> [email-masked] 815-342-5222 (cell phone)

From: [email-masked] (Randall Stewart)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:47:23 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Q:

Try:
<t><list style="hanging">
<t hangText="1.">
text for 1
</t>
<t><list style="hanging">
<t hangText="1a)
">
Text for 1a
</t>
<t hangText="1b)">
Text for 1b
</t>
</list></t>
<t hangText="2.">
text for 2
</t>
</list></t>

R

Qiaobing Xie wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've just started to use xml to write my I-Ds. I'd like to know how to do the
> following nested lists in xml:
> 
>  1. ...
>  2. ..
>    2a. ...
>    2b. ...
>  3. ...
> 
> or
> 
>  1. ...
>  2. ..
>    a. ...
>    b. ...
>  3. ...
> 
> or
> 
>  1. ...
>  2. ..
>    Rule1: ...
>    Rule2: ...
>  3. ...
> 
> I tried to nest the "numbers" list elements, but ended up with:
> 
>  1. ...
>  2. ..
>    1. ...
>    2. ...
>  3. ...
> 
> regards,
> -Qiaobing
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://lists.xml.resource.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc

-- 
Randall R. Stewart
[email-masked] 815-342-5222 (cell phone)

From: [email-masked] (Qiaobing Xie)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:57:47 -0500
Subject: [xml2rfc] how to use list element question
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi,

I've just started to use xml to write my I-Ds. I'd like to know how to do the
following nested lists in xml:

 1. ...
 2. ..
   2a. ...
   2b. ...
 3. ...

or 

 1. ...
 2. ..
   a. ...
   b. ...
 3. ...

or 

 1. ...
 2. ..
   Rule1: ...
   Rule2: ...
 3. ...

I tried to nest the "numbers" list elements, but ended up with:

 1. ...
 2. ..
   1. ...
   2. ...
 3. ...

regards,
-Qiaobing

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:33:26 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] BibTex <-> XML
In-Reply-To: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68B9@XMB03CRDGE>
References: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68B9@XMB03CRDGE>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> I noticed an XML DTD for BibTex at http://xml.coverpages.org/bibteXML.html.

it looks like http://bibtexml.sourceforge.net/ is the home for the project.

since there's a script that converts from .bib to .xml, the easiest way
to do the work would be to write an XSLT script that converts from the
bibtexml structure to rfc2629.
    
julian - you around? take a look at
http://bibtexml.sourceforge.net/bibtex.dtd and
http://bibtexml.sourceforge.net/bibteXML-strict.dtd and let me know what
you think... thanks!

> Also, now that I have what I think is your attention (and not your MailBot's :)), 
> I would like to get your opinion on Active Networking and the Internet Protocol. How
> would you see the possibility of a bridge (transition) from IP to the concept of Active
> Networking coming about?
> ...

i've been on a self-imposed exile from the network management area for
close to 8 years now. that means that you'll need to talk to someone
more current...

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:19:00 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] license of xml2rfc?
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> Hi, I'd like to package xml2rfc as a Debian package, but I can't seem
> to find what license the code is published under.  Which is it?

public domain.

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Bush, Stephen F (Research))
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:27:21 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] BibTex <-> XML
Message-ID: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68B9@XMB03CRDGE>

Marshall,

I noticed an XML DTD for BibTex at http://xml.coverpages.org/bibteXML.html.

Also, now that I have what I think is your attention (and not your MailBot's :)), 
I would like to get your opinion on Active Networking and the Internet Protocol. How would you see
the possibility of a bridge (transition) from IP to the concept of Active Networking coming about?

Also, we've been experimenting with predictive management within Active Networks (injecting small
code/algorithms) to implement in-line prediction and have developed a predictive SNMP-like mechanism 
for Active Networks. (That would be the content of the draft I am trying to develop.)

I was thinking about submitting that as an Internet Draft, however, I'm not sure how receptive the IP
community is to Active and Programmable networking concepts.

Any comments/advice would be appreciated.

Stephen F Bush (http://www.crd.ge.com/~bushsf)

Steve Bush

-----Original Message-----
From: Marshall Rose [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 11:39 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Bush, Stephen F (Research)
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] BibTex <-> XML

> What recommendations do people have for a tool to convert from BibTex to XML in a format
> that is most suitable for use with xml2rfc?

good question. it's been such a long time (20 years) since i've used the BibTeX format, i'm not sure
what the best way to proceed is. is there a definitive guide online somewhere which describes the
format?

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Simon Josefsson)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:33:09 +0200
Subject: [xml2rfc] license of xml2rfc?
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

Hi, I'd like to package xml2rfc as a Debian package, but I can't seem
to find what license the code is published under.  Which is it?

From: [email-masked] (Marshall Rose)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 20:38:30 -0700
Subject: [xml2rfc] BibTex <-> XML
In-Reply-To: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68A3@XMB03CRDGE>
References: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68A3@XMB03CRDGE>
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

> What recommendations do people have for a tool to convert from BibTex to XML in a format
> that is most suitable for use with xml2rfc?

good question. it's been such a long time (20 years) since i've used the BibTeX format, i'm not sure what the best way to proceed is. is there a definitive guide online somewhere which describes the format?

/mtr

From: [email-masked] (Bush, Stephen F (Research))
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:04:57 -0400
Subject: [xml2rfc] BibTex <-> XML
Message-ID: <E4AAC34FE3CF564D8AE89EB8AC333FD7031F68A3@XMB03CRDGE>

What recommendations do people have for a tool to convert from BibTex to XML in a format
that is most suitable for use with xml2rfc?

Thanks,
Stephen F Bush (http://www.crd.ge.com/~bushsf)
 <<Stephen F. Bush (E-mail).vcf>>