From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jan  3 08:52:58 2011
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 09:54:56 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Cc: draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis@tools.ietf.org, xmpp-chairs@tools.ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, XMPP <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] Alexey Melnikov's Yes on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: (with COMMENT)
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[cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org]

On 1/2/11 12:35 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: Yes
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this=

> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
> Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm=
l
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> In 4.3.2:
>=20
>       Implementation Note: The handling of the 'id' attribute in
>       relation to presence probes was unspecified in RFC 3921.  Althoug=
h
>       the pattern of "send a probe and receive a reply" might seem like=

>       a request-response protocol similar to the XMPP <iq/> stanza, in
>       fact it is not because the response to a probe might consist of
>       multiple presence stanzas (one for each available resource
>       currently active for the contact).  For this reason, if the
>       contact currently has available resources then the contact's
>       server SHOULD preserve the 'id' attribute of the contact's
>       original presence stanza (if any) when sending those presence
>       notifications to the probing entity; however,
>=20
> Use of "however" can be read as if the 'id' attribute is not to be retu=
rned
> in the case specified below, however it is still returned. I suggest dr=
opping
> "however" here.

I suggest:

s/however/by contrast/

>       if the contact
>       currently has no available resources, the probing entity is not
>       authorized (via presence subscription) to see the contact's
>       presence, or an error occurs in relation to the proble, then the
>       contact's server SHOULD mirror the 'id' of the user's presence
>       probe when replying to the probing entity.
>=20
> In 4.5.2:
>=20
>    The user's server MUST also send the unavailable notification to all=

>    of the user's available resources (including the resource that
>    generated the presence notification in the first place).
>=20
> Comment: The text in (): but the resource is unavailable :-).

The resource is unavailable for presence purposes, but still connected
to the server. I can see how "including" confuses the reader, though. I
suggest:

   (as well as to the resource that generated the unavailable presence
   in the first place)

>    The <subject/> element MUST NOT contain mixed content (as defined in=

>    Section 3.2.2 of [XML]).
>=20
> Should the same be said about presence' <status> element?

Yes, and also for the <show/> and <priority/> children of <presence/>.

> 11.  Security Considerations
>=20
>    o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>       entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence,
>       either via an explicit subscription as described herein or via an=

>       existing trust relationship (such as presence-enabled user
>       directories within organizations).
>=20
> I don't understand this paragraph. If a user is subscribed to presence,=

> then she is authorized to know user's presence?

I don't understand your lack of understanding. :) But perhaps this is
clearer:

   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence, where
      authorization typically takes the form of an explicit subscription
      from a contact to the user (as described under Section 3) but
      might take the form of an existing trust relationship (such as a
      presence-enabled employee directory within an organization that
      mandates the sharing of presence information as part of an
      employment agreement).

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jan  3 11:08:04 2011
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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 19:09:19 +0000
From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Alexey Melnikov's Yes on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Peter,

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>[cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org]
>
>On 1/2/11 12:35 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>  
>
>>Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
>>draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: Yes
>>
>>When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>COMMENT:
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>In 4.3.2:
>>
>>      Implementation Note: The handling of the 'id' attribute in
>>      relation to presence probes was unspecified in RFC 3921.  Although
>>      the pattern of "send a probe and receive a reply" might seem like
>>      a request-response protocol similar to the XMPP <iq/> stanza, in
>>      fact it is not because the response to a probe might consist of
>>      multiple presence stanzas (one for each available resource
>>      currently active for the contact).  For this reason, if the
>>      contact currently has available resources then the contact's
>>      server SHOULD preserve the 'id' attribute of the contact's
>>      original presence stanza (if any) when sending those presence
>>      notifications to the probing entity; however,
>>
>>Use of "however" can be read as if the 'id' attribute is not to be returned
>>in the case specified below, however it is still returned. I suggest dropping
>>"however" here.
>>    
>>
>I suggest:
>
>s/however/by contrast/
>  
>
This still seem to imply that in the latter case something different 
happens to 'id'. But unless I am mistaken "SHOULD preserve the 'id'" and 
"SHOULD mirror the 'id'" mean the same thing.

>>      if the contact
>>      currently has no available resources, the probing entity is not
>>      authorized (via presence subscription) to see the contact's
>>      presence, or an error occurs in relation to the proble, then the
>>      contact's server SHOULD mirror the 'id' of the user's presence
>>      probe when replying to the probing entity.
>>
>>In 4.5.2:
>>
>>   The user's server MUST also send the unavailable notification to all
>>   of the user's available resources (including the resource that
>>   generated the presence notification in the first place).
>>
>>Comment: The text in (): but the resource is unavailable :-).
>>    
>>
>
>The resource is unavailable for presence purposes, but still connected
>to the server. I can see how "including" confuses the reader, though. I
>suggest:
>
>   (as well as to the resource that generated the unavailable presence
>   in the first place)
>  
>
Ok.

>>   The <subject/> element MUST NOT contain mixed content (as defined in
>>   Section 3.2.2 of [XML]).
>>
>>Should the same be said about presence' <status> element?
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, and also for the <show/> and <priority/> children of <presence/>.
>  
>
Yes. But I think they are already covered.

>>11.  Security Considerations
>>
>>   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>>      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence,
>>      either via an explicit subscription as described herein or via an
>>      existing trust relationship (such as presence-enabled user
>>      directories within organizations).
>>
>>I don't understand this paragraph. If a user is subscribed to presence,
>>then she is authorized to know user's presence?
>>    
>>
>
>I don't understand your lack of understanding. :) But perhaps this is
>clearer:
>  
>
Not really.

>   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence, where
>      authorization typically takes the form of an explicit subscription
>      from a contact to the user (as described under Section 3) but
>      might take the form of an existing trust relationship (such as a
>      presence-enabled employee directory within an organization that
>      mandates the sharing of presence information as part of an
>      employment agreement).
>  
>
Can you split this into multiple sentences instead of one compound 
sentence? In particular, the part "where authorization typically takes 
the form of an explicit subscription from a contact to the user (as 
described under Section 3)" is confusing, because this is talking about 
proper authorization which (if my understanding is correct) doesn't 
actually leak presence.


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jan  3 11:24:47 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Alexey Melnikov's Yes on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: (with COMMENT)
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--------------ms050909020404090102090209
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On 1/3/11 12:09 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>=20
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>=20
>> [cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org]
>>
>> On 1/2/11 12:35 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>> =20
>>
>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: Yes
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=

>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th=
is
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>> Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.h=
tml
>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>
>>> In 4.3.2:
>>>
>>>      Implementation Note: The handling of the 'id' attribute in
>>>      relation to presence probes was unspecified in RFC 3921.  Althou=
gh
>>>      the pattern of "send a probe and receive a reply" might seem lik=
e
>>>      a request-response protocol similar to the XMPP <iq/> stanza, in=

>>>      fact it is not because the response to a probe might consist of
>>>      multiple presence stanzas (one for each available resource
>>>      currently active for the contact).  For this reason, if the
>>>      contact currently has available resources then the contact's
>>>      server SHOULD preserve the 'id' attribute of the contact's
>>>      original presence stanza (if any) when sending those presence
>>>      notifications to the probing entity; however,
>>>
>>> Use of "however" can be read as if the 'id' attribute is not to be
>>> returned
>>> in the case specified below, however it is still returned. I suggest
>>> dropping
>>> "however" here.
>>>  =20
>> I suggest:
>>
>> s/however/by contrast/
>> =20
>>
> This still seem to imply that in the latter case something different
> happens to 'id'. But unless I am mistaken "SHOULD preserve the 'id'" an=
d
> "SHOULD mirror the 'id'" mean the same thing.

In the first case, the server preserves the 'id' of the original
presence notification generated by the presentity. In the second case,
the server mirrors the 'id' of the presence probe it received from the
contact.

>>>      if the contact
>>>      currently has no available resources, the probing entity is not
>>>      authorized (via presence subscription) to see the contact's
>>>      presence, or an error occurs in relation to the proble, then the=

>>>      contact's server SHOULD mirror the 'id' of the user's presence
>>>      probe when replying to the probing entity.
>>>
>>> In 4.5.2:
>>>
>>>   The user's server MUST also send the unavailable notification to al=
l
>>>   of the user's available resources (including the resource that
>>>   generated the presence notification in the first place).
>>>
>>> Comment: The text in (): but the resource is unavailable :-).
>>>  =20
>>
>> The resource is unavailable for presence purposes, but still connected=

>> to the server. I can see how "including" confuses the reader, though. =
I
>> suggest:
>>
>>   (as well as to the resource that generated the unavailable presence
>>   in the first place)
>> =20
>>
> Ok.
>=20
>>>   The <subject/> element MUST NOT contain mixed content (as defined i=
n
>>>   Section 3.2.2 of [XML]).
>>>
>>> Should the same be said about presence' <status> element?
>>>  =20
>>
>> Yes, and also for the <show/> and <priority/> children of <presence/>.=

>> =20
>>
> Yes. But I think they are already covered.

In version -18 it's not explicitly called out that those child elements
mustn't contain mixed content. I've fixed that in my working copy.

>>> 11.  Security Considerations
>>>
>>>   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to=

>>>      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence,
>>>      either via an explicit subscription as described herein or via a=
n
>>>      existing trust relationship (such as presence-enabled user
>>>      directories within organizations).
>>>
>>> I don't understand this paragraph. If a user is subscribed to presenc=
e,
>>> then she is authorized to know user's presence?
>>>  =20
>>
>> I don't understand your lack of understanding. :) But perhaps this is
>> clearer:
>> =20
>>
> Not really.
>=20
>>   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>>      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence, wher=
e
>>      authorization typically takes the form of an explicit subscriptio=
n
>>      from a contact to the user (as described under Section 3) but
>>      might take the form of an existing trust relationship (such as a
>>      presence-enabled employee directory within an organization that
>>      mandates the sharing of presence information as part of an
>>      employment agreement).
>> =20
>>
> Can you split this into multiple sentences instead of one compound
> sentence? In particular, the part "where authorization typically takes
> the form of an explicit subscription from a contact to the user (as
> described under Section 3)" is confusing, because this is talking about=

> proper authorization which (if my understanding is correct) doesn't
> actually leak presence.

True.

Here is another try:

   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence.  In
      XMPP itself, authorization takes the form of an explicit
      subscription from a contact to the user (as described under
      Section 3).  However, some XMPP deployments might consider an
      entity to be authorized if there is an existing trust relationship
      between the entity and the user who is generating presence
      information (as an example, a corporate deployment of XMPP might
      automatically add the user's presence information to a private
      directory of employees if the organization mandates the sharing of
      presence information as part of an employment agreement).


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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jan  3 11:28:52 2011
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Cc: draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis@tools.ietf.org, xmpp-chairs@tools.ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, XMPP <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] Alexey Melnikov's Yes on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-18: (with COMMENT)
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Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>On 1/3/11 12:09 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi Peter,
>>
>>Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>[cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org]
>>>
>>>On 1/2/11 12:35 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>
 [...]

>>>>11.  Security Considerations
>>>>
>>>>  o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>>>>     entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence,
>>>>     either via an explicit subscription as described herein or via an
>>>>     existing trust relationship (such as presence-enabled user
>>>>     directories within organizations).
>>>>
>>>>I don't understand this paragraph. If a user is subscribed to presence,
>>>>then she is authorized to know user's presence?        
>>>>
>>>I don't understand your lack of understanding. :) But perhaps this is
>>>clearer:
>>>      
>>>
>>Not really.
>>    
>>
>>>  o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>>>     entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence, where
>>>     authorization typically takes the form of an explicit subscription
>>>     from a contact to the user (as described under Section 3) but
>>>     might take the form of an existing trust relationship (such as a
>>>     presence-enabled employee directory within an organization that
>>>     mandates the sharing of presence information as part of an
>>>     employment agreement).
>>>      
>>>
>>Can you split this into multiple sentences instead of one compound
>>sentence? In particular, the part "where authorization typically takes
>>the form of an explicit subscription from a contact to the user (as
>>described under Section 3)" is confusing, because this is talking about
>>proper authorization which (if my understanding is correct) doesn't
>>actually leak presence.
>>
>
>True.
>
>Here is another try:
>
>   o  A user's server MUST NOT leak the user's network availability to
>      entities who are not authorized to know the user's presence.  In
>      XMPP itself, authorization takes the form of an explicit
>      subscription from a contact to the user (as described under
>      Section 3).  However, some XMPP deployments might consider an
>      entity to be authorized if there is an existing trust relationship
>      between the entity and the user who is generating presence
>      information (as an example, a corporate deployment of XMPP might
>      automatically add the user's presence information to a private
>      directory of employees if the organization mandates the sharing of
>      presence information as part of an employment agreement).
>  
>
This is much better, thanks.


From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org  Wed Jan  5 11:15:02 2011
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Instant Messaging and Presence
	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
	Filename        : draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19.txt
	Pages           : 114
	Date            : 2011-01-05

This document defines extensions to core features of the Extensible
Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) that provide basic instant
messaging (IM) and presence functionality in conformance with the
requirements in RFC 2779.  This document obsoletes RFC 3921.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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This version addresses some comments received from Alexey Melnikov
during IESG review. The diff is here:

http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19

On 1/5/11 12:15 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.
> This draft is a work item of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Prot=
ocol Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): I=
nstant Messaging and Presence
> 	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19.txt
> 	Pages           : 114
> 	Date            : 2011-01-05
>=20
> This document defines extensions to core features of the Extensible
> Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) that provide basic instant
> messaging (IM) and presence functionality in conformance with the
> requirements in RFC 2779.  This document obsoletes RFC 3921.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Jan  6 07:08:15 2011
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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:10:17 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [xmpp] draft-ietf-xmpp-address-09
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I just submitted version -09 of the address spec, which contains some
small adjustments to the introduction based on IESG feedback. The diff
is here:

http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-xmpp-address-09

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Address Format
	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
	Filename        : draft-ietf-xmpp-address-09.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2011-01-06

This document defines the format for addresses used in the Extensible
Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), including support for non-
ASCII characters.  This document updates RFC 3920.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xmpp-address-09.txt

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From ben@nostrum.com  Fri Jan  7 10:59:43 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.=20

Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.

Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.

If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to xmpp@ietf.org. =
Remote participation may be available if there is sufficient interest =
and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish participate remotely, =
please indicate so to the same list.=20

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Subject: [xmpp] XMPP WG Interim Meeting, February 7, 2011
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The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on Monday,
7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near Brussels and
BRU). This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th XMPP Summit
(http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 ) sponsored by
the XMPP Standards Foundation.

Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.

Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization
features in XMPP. If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain Name
Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more detailed
agenda as the event approaches.

If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to xmpp@ietf.org.
Remote participation may be available if there is sufficient interest and
need. If you cannot attend in person but wish participate remotely, please
indicate so to the same list. 

From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Jan 10 13:13:13 2011
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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HI,

Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to =
attend...".

Thanks!

Ben.

On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.=20
>=20
> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>=20
> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>=20
> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to =
xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is =
sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish =
participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.=20
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp


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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.

I'm planning to be there, and at the other XMPP events that weekend.

jack.

From dave@cridland.net  Mon Jan 10 13:19:08 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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On Mon Jan 10 21:15:23 2011, Ben Campbell wrote:
> HI,
> 
> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to  
> attend...".
> 
> 
Ah! I didn't, and I am attending, in person.

It'd be great if people could ensure the XSF organizers know as well,  
and note that the XMPP Summit itself is open to anyone, having bits  
on the Monday morning and Friday too. Also, there's FOSDEM happening  
the same weekend, including various talks on XMPP on the Saturday  
afternoon.

There's a Summit mailing list - summit@xmpp.org - and to entice you  
further, there's even a designated hotel.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jan 10 13:19:48 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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On 1/10/11 2:18 PM, Jack Moffitt wrote:
>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to
>> xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is
>> sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but
>> wish participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.
>=20
> I'm planning to be there, and at the other XMPP events that weekend.

I assume that the 29 people listed at the following URL (as of right
now) will also be there:

http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10/#monday

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From Joe.Hildebrand@webex.com  Mon Jan 10 13:26:12 2011
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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:28:25 -0700
From: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>
To: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, XMPP Working Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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On 1/10/11 2:21 PM, "Dave Cridland" <dave@cridland.net> wrote:

> It'd be great if people could ensure the XSF organizers know as well,
> and note that the XMPP Summit itself is open to anyone, having bits
> on the Monday morning and Friday too. Also, there's FOSDEM happening
> the same weekend, including various talks on XMPP on the Saturday
> afternoon.

As I said on the Summit list earlier:

One of the cool things about the XSF is how open these sorts of meetings are
to newbies.  I'd encourage anyone that thinks they might be interested to
attend as much as they can, introduce themselves around, and assume that the
people they meet have similar interests.

If you're on the fence about coming, I can't recommend this one enough,
particularly if you've never been to FOSDEM before.  The amount of energy
compressed into a small space is pretty thrilling.

-- 
Joe Hildebrand


From k.i.smith@gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 13:38:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
> HI,
> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to attend...=
".

I'd assumed this didn't apply to those of use who'd confirmed we'd be
there while it was going to be an XSF event - I'll be there.

/K

>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben.
>
> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on Monda=
y, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near Brussels an=
d BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th XMPP Summit ( ht=
tp://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 ) =A0sponsored by =
the XMPP Standards Foundation.
>>
>> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>>
>> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization featu=
res in XMPP. =A0If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain Name As=
sertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more detailed agenda =
as the event approaches.
>>
>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to xmpp@ietf.org. =
Remote participation may be available if there is sufficient interest and n=
eed. If you cannot attend in person but wish participate remotely, please i=
ndicate so to the same list.
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmpp mailing list
>> xmpp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>

From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Jan 10 14:01:08 2011
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Cc: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>, XMPP Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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After discussion of that very question with Peter and Joe, we will =
assume that if people are already listed as attending the Summit =
event(s) for that Monday, they will be at the interim meeting unless we =
hear otherwise.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Jan 10, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Kevin Smith wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>> HI,
>> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to =
attend...".
>=20
> I'd assumed this didn't apply to those of use who'd confirmed we'd be
> there while it was going to be an XSF event - I'll be there.
>=20
> /K
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Ben.
>>=20
>> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>=20
>>> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.
>>>=20
>>> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>>>=20
>>> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>>>=20
>>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to =
xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is =
sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish =
participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmpp mailing list
>>> xmpp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmpp mailing list
>> xmpp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>>=20


From louiz@louiz.org  Mon Jan 10 18:54:18 2011
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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 03:53:49 +0100
From: Florent Le Coz <louiz@louiz.org>
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Subject: [xmpp] Little typo in rfc 3921bis-19
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Just a quick note:

Section 3.1.1:
   When a user sends a presence subscription request to a potential
   instant messaging and presence contact, the value of the 'to'
   attribute MUST be a bare JID <contact@domainpart> rather a full JID.

Should read “rather *than* a full JID”.

regards,

Florent

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jan 10 19:16:07 2011
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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 20:17:36 -0700
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Little typo in rfc 3921bis-19
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On 1/10/11 7:53 PM, Florent Le Coz wrote:
> Just a quick note:
>=20
> Section 3.1.1:
>    When a user sends a presence subscription request to a potential
>    instant messaging and presence contact, the value of the 'to'
>    attribute MUST be a bare JID <contact@domainpart> rather a full JID.=

>=20
> Should read =E2=80=9Crather *than* a full JID=E2=80=9D.

It does read that way in version -22. I completed a thorough editorial
review of the spec for version -20 or -21 (I can't recall which).

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jan 10 19:22:25 2011
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Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 20:24:37 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Little typo in rfc 3921bis-19
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On 1/10/11 8:17 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 1/10/11 7:53 PM, Florent Le Coz wrote:
>> Just a quick note:
>>
>> Section 3.1.1:
>>    When a user sends a presence subscription request to a potential
>>    instant messaging and presence contact, the value of the 'to'
>>    attribute MUST be a bare JID <contact@domainpart> rather a full JID=
=2E
>>
>> Should read =E2=80=9Crather *than* a full JID=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> It does read that way in version -22. I completed a thorough editorial
> review of the spec for version -20 or -21 (I can't recall which).

Oops, you were referring to 3921bis. You're right. Fixed.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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--------------ms090909000602010005040502--

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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:36:19 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [xmpp] bis draft status update
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Overnight, both 3920bis and xmpp-address were approved for publication
(the Secretariat will probably post about that sometime today). Hurray!

These documents will now be forwarded to the RFC Editor team for final
copy editing, proofreading, reference checking, etc.

Both 3921bis and draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check (a normative
reference for 3920bis) are on the agenda of the IESG telechat to be held
next Thursday, January 20.

I expect fewer comments from IESG members about 3921bis than we received
about 3920bis, because in general I've always received less feedback on
the IM and presence document than on the core document. When replying to
comments from the IESG, I will make sure to cc this list.

I'm not sure what to expect regarding the server-id-check document, but
anyway I won't be cc'ing the XMPP WG when replying to comments about
that spec (subscribe to the certid@ietf.org list if you want to stay in
the loop -- visit <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/certid> to do so=
).

Onward and upward!

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nicolas_V=E9rit=E9?= <nicolas.verite@process-one.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:46:24 +0100
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] bis draft status update
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Diffs are quite large... it would be nice to document what's changed,
and what's the migration path for implementors...

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote=
:
> Overnight, both 3920bis and xmpp-address were approved for publication
> (the Secretariat will probably post about that sometime today). Hurray!
>
> These documents will now be forwarded to the RFC Editor team for final
> copy editing, proofreading, reference checking, etc.
>
> Both 3921bis and draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check (a normative
> reference for 3920bis) are on the agenda of the IESG telechat to be held
> next Thursday, January 20.
>
> I expect fewer comments from IESG members about 3921bis than we received
> about 3920bis, because in general I've always received less feedback on
> the IM and presence document than on the core document. When replying to
> comments from the IESG, I will make sure to cc this list.
>
> I'm not sure what to expect regarding the server-id-check document, but
> anyway I won't be cc'ing the XMPP WG when replying to comments about
> that spec (subscribe to the certid@ietf.org list if you want to stay in
> the loop -- visit <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/certid> to do so=
).
>
> Onward and upward!
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>
>



--=20
Nicolas V=E9rit=E9 - ProcessOne
http://process-one.net
Mobile: +33 6 20 88 63 04

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--------------ms050102050408080709070704
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The diffs from RFC 3920 are listed in Appendix D of 3920bis:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22#appendix-D

On 1/11/11 8:46 AM, Nicolas V=C3=A9rit=C3=A9 wrote:
> Diffs are quite large... it would be nice to document what's changed,
> and what's the migration path for implementors...
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> w=
rote:
>> Overnight, both 3920bis and xmpp-address were approved for publication=

>> (the Secretariat will probably post about that sometime today). Hurray=
!
>>
>> These documents will now be forwarded to the RFC Editor team for final=

>> copy editing, proofreading, reference checking, etc.
>>
>> Both 3921bis and draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check (a normative
>> reference for 3920bis) are on the agenda of the IESG telechat to be he=
ld
>> next Thursday, January 20.
>>
>> I expect fewer comments from IESG members about 3921bis than we receiv=
ed
>> about 3920bis, because in general I've always received less feedback o=
n
>> the IM and presence document than on the core document. When replying =
to
>> comments from the IESG, I will make sure to cc this list.
>>
>> I'm not sure what to expect regarding the server-id-check document, bu=
t
>> anyway I won't be cc'ing the XMPP WG when replying to comments about
>> that spec (subscribe to the certid@ietf.org list if you want to stay i=
n
>> the loop -- visit <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/certid> to do=
 so).
>>
>> Onward and upward!
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --
>> Peter Saint-Andre
>> https://stpeter.im/


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From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Tue Jan 11 12:17:02 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] Protocol Action: 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP):	Core' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Core'
  (draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Extensible Messaging and Presence
Protocol Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Gonzalo Camarillo and Robert Sparks.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis/



        Technical Summary
            Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
            and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
            an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
            or introduction.

The Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) is an application profile
of the Extensible Markup Language (XML) that enables the near-real-time exchange
of structured yet extensible data between any two or more network entities.
This document defines XMPP's core protocol methods: setup and teardown of XML
streams, channel encryption, authentication, error handling, and communication
primitives for messaging, network availability ("presence"), and request-
response interactions.

Since 2004 the Internet community has gained extensive implementation and
deployment experience with XMPP, including formal interoperability testing
carried out under the auspices of the XMPP Standards Foundation (XSF).  This
document incorporates comprehensive feedback from software developers and
service providers, including a number of backward-compatible modifications.  As
a result, this document reflects the rough consensus of the Internet community
regarding the core features of XMPP 1.0, thus obsoleting RFC 3920.


        Working Group Summary
            Was there anything in the WG process that is worth noting?
            For example, was there controversy about particular points
            or were there decisions where the consensus was
            particularly rough?

There is strong consensus in the working group to publish this document.

There has been controversy over the use of dialback authentication in XMPP. RFC
3920 recommended against the use of dialback, but included it for backwards
compatibility reasons. Since dialback continues to be in common use among XMPP
implementations, some working group participants wished to keep it in this
draft. Others believed that we should further discourage its use by removing it.
The working group reached a rough consensus to remove it from this draft, but
mention it (referencing XEP-0220) as something many implementations do, and
allowed at a MAY level for interworking with implementations that are unable to
use stronger authentication.

There were concerns that the XMPP addressing format (aka JID) depend on
internationalization technologies (stringprep) that are currently in flux, and
may be in flux for some time. Rather than block progress on this draft, the
working group chose to remove the JID definition to a separate draft (draft-
ietf-xmpp-address-03). The referenced draft continues to use stringprep, but was
separated out to make it easier to update in a "modular" fashion once work on a
new internationalization approach is complete.

        Document Quality
            Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
            significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
            implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
            merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
            e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
            conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
            there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type, or other Expert Review,
            what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
            Review, on what date was the request posted?

There are at least 25 server implementations, 50 library implementations, and
100 client implementations of the XMPP RFCs; a partial list is located at
<http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/> (that list does not include "software as a
service" implementations hosted by service providers such as Google Talk).
Several downloadable software
implementations in each category have been closely
tracking the changes between RFC 3920 and draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis, and many
others are currently being upgraded or are waiting until the replacement RFC is
published before including the modifications in released software.
Interoperability is continually being verified among implementation teams, over
the XMPP network, and at more formal interoperability
testing events sponsored
by the XMPP Standards Foundation. It is expected that official implementation
reports will be submitted within a year after publication of the revised XMPP
RFCs.


        Personnel
            Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Who is the
            Responsible Area Director?  If the document requires IANA
            experts(s), insert 'The IANA Expert(s) for the registries
            in this document are <to be="" added="" by="" the="" ad="">.'

The document shepherd for this document is Ben Campbell.

The responsible Area Director is Gonzalo Camarillo.

From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Tue Jan 11 12:19:27 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] Protocol Action: 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP):	Address Format' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-xmpp-address-09.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Address Format'
  (draft-ietf-xmpp-address-09.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Extensible Messaging and Presence
Protocol Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Gonzalo Camarillo and Robert Sparks.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-address/



        Technical Summary
          Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
          and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be
          an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
          or introduction.

This document defines the format for addresses used in the Extensible Messaging
and Presence Protocol (XMPP), including support for non-ASCII characters.

As specified in RFC 3920, the XMPP address format re-uses the "stringprep"
technology for preparation of non-ASCII characters, including the Nameprep
profile for internationalized domain names, along with two XMPP-specific
profiles for the localpart and resourcepart.  However, since the publication of
RFC 3920, IDNA2003 has been superseded by IDNA2008 .  As a result, other
protocols that use stringprep (including XMPP) have begun to migrate from
stringprep toward more "modern" approaches.

Because work on improved handling of internationalized addresses is currently in
progress, specifying the XMPP address format in the specification that obsoletes
RFC 3920 would unacceptably delay the revision process.  Therefore, this
specification provides updated documentation of the XMPP address format
(essentially copied from RFC 3920), with the intent that it can be superseded
once work on a new approach to internationalization is complete.

        Working Group Summary
          Was there anything in the WG process that is worth noting?
          For example, was there controversy about particular points
          or were there decisions where the consensus was
          particularly rough?

There is strong consensus in the working group to publish this document.

There were concerns that the XMPP addressing format (aka JID) depend on
internationalization technologies (stringprep) that are currently in flux, and
may be in flux for some time. Rather than block progress on this draft, the
working group chose to remove the JID definition to a separate draft (this
document). This specification continues to use stringprep, but was separated out
to make it easier to update in a "modular" fashion once work on a new
internationalization approach is complete.

        Document Quality
          Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a
          significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
          implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
          merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
          e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
          conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
          there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type, or other Expert Review,
          what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
          Review, on what date was the request posted?

There are at least 25 server implementations, 50 library implementations, and
100 client implementations of the XMPP RFCs; a partial list is located at
<http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/> (that list does not include "software as a
service" implementations hosted by service providers such as Google Talk).
Several downloadable software
implementations in each category have been closely
tracking the changes between RFC 3920 and draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis, and many
others are currently being upgraded or are waiting until the replacement RFC is
published before including the modifications in released software.
Interoperability is continually being verified among implementation teams, over
the XMPP network, and at more formal interoperability
testing events sponsored
by the XMPP Standards Foundation. It is expected that official implementation
reports will be submitted within a year after publication of the revised XMPP
RFCs.

        Personnel
          Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Who is the
          Responsible Area Director?  If the document requires IANA
          experts(s), insert 'The IANA Expert(s) for the registries
          in this document are <to be="" added="" by="" the="" ad="">.'

The document shepherd for this document is Ben Campbell.

The responsible Area Director is Gonzalo Camarillo.


From mamille2@cisco.com  Wed Jan 12 06:55:53 2011
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From: Matt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com>
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To: XMPP Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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Since I'm not (yet) on the summit participants list...

I plan on attending.


- m&m

On Jan 7, 2011, at 12:01 , Ben Campbell wrote:

> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.=20
>=20
> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>=20
> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>=20
> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to =
xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is =
sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish =
participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.=20
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp


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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Jan 12 08:58:52 2011
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Cc: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>, XMPP Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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Folks, the meeting room I booked at the Cisco office outside Brussels is
filling up fast! The room holds 40 people max, and we currently have 35
people signed up. I am investigating the possibility of finding a larger
room, but I can make no guarantees. If you want to attend this meeting
in person, please post to this list as soon as possible. Thanks!

On 1/7/11 12:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on
> Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near
> Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th
> XMPP Summit (
> http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 )
> sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.
>=20
> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>=20
> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization
> features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss
> Domain Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a
> more detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>=20
> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to
> xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is
> sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish
> participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.=20


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--------------ms060709030604010108020502--

From ben@nostrum.com  Wed Jan 12 20:34:25 2011
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Cc: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>, XMPP Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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Oh, and for the sake of completeness: I expect to attend :-)

On Jan 10, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:

> HI,
>=20
> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to =
attend...".
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Ben.
>=20
> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>=20
>> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.=20
>>=20
>> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>>=20
>> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>>=20
>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to =
xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is =
sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish =
participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmpp mailing list
>> xmpp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp


From Joe.Hildebrand@webex.com  Fri Jan 14 14:54:10 2011
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From: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>
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Subject: [xmpp] UDP ports
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Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew the
5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
time.  They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them back
later if we need them.

If anyone has an issue with that, please speak up quickly.

-- 
Joe Hildebrand


From k.i.smith@gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 15:00:20 2011
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On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Joe Hildebrand
<joe.hildebrand@webex.com> wrote:
> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew t=
he
> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
> time. =A0They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them b=
ack
> later if we need them.
> If anyone has an issue with that, please speak up quickly.

Seems sane.

/K

From mwild1@gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 15:03:08 2011
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On 14 January 2011 22:56, Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com> wrote:
> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew t=
he
> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
> time. =C2=A0They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get the=
m back
> later if we need them.
>

If they are reserved, I presume that means no-one else can claim them?
In that case, what's the actual difference whether we renew the
registration or not?

Also, do we have registrations for SCTP? Is that automatic?

Regards,
Matthew

From Joe.Hildebrand@webex.com  Fri Jan 14 15:16:04 2011
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On 1/14/11 4:05 PM, "Matthew Wild" <mwild1@gmail.com> wrote:

> If they are reserved, I presume that means no-one else can claim them?
> In that case, what's the actual difference whether we renew the
> registration or not?

Presumably, if there was a good reason to use them, they could be used; it's
not an absolute.  More of a guideline than a rule.

> Also, do we have registrations for SCTP? Is that automatic?

We don't have an SCTP binding defined.  If someone wanted to write an I-D
that said how to do XMPP over SCTP, that would be the doc that the
registration pointed to.  If there was consensus in the WG that this was
something we all wanted, we could pursue revving the charter to include the
work.

-- 
Joe Hildebrand


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Hi,

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Joe Hildebrand
<joe.hildebrand@webex.com> wrote:
> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew t=
he
> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
> time. =A0They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them b=
ack
> later if we need them.

Just for my personal knowledge, is there a reason why they gave us UDP
port registration automatically? Is this something IANA is used to do
each time they are asked TCP ports? Or did we have, once upon a time,
some standard proposition where XMPP would work over a UDP connection?

> If anyone has an issue with that, please speak up quickly.

That's just to know, I have personally no issue with not using UDP for XMPP=
.

Thanks.

Jehan

From Joe.Hildebrand@webex.com  Sat Jan 15 23:47:50 2011
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On 1/15/11 3:04 AM, "Jehan Pag=E8s" <jehan.marmottard@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just for my personal knowledge, is there a reason why they gave us UDP
> port registration automatically? Is this something IANA is used to do
> each time they are asked TCP ports? Or did we have, once upon a time,
> some standard proposition where XMPP would work over a UDP connection?

Yes, as far as I can tell, the policy used to be to just assign both UDP an=
d
TCP for each port.  XMPP over UDP has been suggested several times, but
never in a way that was actually useful.

--=20
Joe Hildebrand


From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sun Jan 16 08:56:37 2011
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Joe Hildebrand wrote:

>Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew the
>5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
>time.  They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them back
>later if we need them.
>  
>
Small pedantic correction: if/when draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports is 
approved for publication as an RFC, ports for transport protocols not 
explicitly requested would be marked as reserved. This means that 
whoever have requested the original port number is likely to be able to 
get allocations for other transports, althought there would be no 
guaranty. However, if IANA runs out of free ports, it will start giving 
away reserved port numbers.

>If anyone has an issue with that, please speak up quickly.
>
No issue, I think this is exactly the right thing to do.


From dave@cridland.net  Mon Jan 17 02:12:16 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] UDP ports
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On Fri Jan 14 22:56:38 2011, Joe Hildebrand wrote:
> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to  
> renew the
> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us  
> last
> time.  They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get  
> them back
> later if we need them.

I'd rather keep them, on balance.

Reasons:

1) We have them anyway.

2) It provides a pair of port numbers which are relatively certain to  
be clear of any other services, and as such is a reasonable default.

3) We include both port numbers as a specified fallback in the case  
where no SRV records exist.

If we were registering them for the first time, I think we'd need  
strong arguments, but changing the existing registration requires  
arguments in favour of dropping, and I don't see any. I'm willing to  
change my mind, of course.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net
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To: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] UDP ports
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Like Dave just said, I'd rather keep them as we already have them allocated
and although not currently used you never know what someone may come up with
a week after they are released...

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:

> On Fri Jan 14 22:56:38 2011, Joe Hildebrand wrote:
>
>> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew
>> the
>> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last
>> time.  They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them back
>> later if we need them.
>>
>
> I'd rather keep them, on balance.
>
> Reasons:
>
> 1) We have them anyway.
>
> 2) It provides a pair of port numbers which are relatively certain to be
> clear of any other services, and as such is a reasonable default.
>
> 3) We include both port numbers as a specified fallback in the case where
> no SRV records exist.
>
> If we were registering them for the first time, I think we'd need strong
> arguments, but changing the existing registration requires arguments in
> favour of dropping, and I don't see any. I'm willing to change my mind, of
> course.
>
> Dave.
> --
> Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net<xmpp%3Adwd@dave.cridland.net>
>  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
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> _______________________________________________
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>



-- 
Peter Mount

Email: peter@retep.org.uk
  Web:  http://retep.org
Phone: +44 (0)7903 155887
 XMPP: peter@retep.org (Primary)
 XMPP: petermount@gmail.com (blackberry)

--00163649990f8bffde049a082c50
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Like Dave just said, I&#39;d rather keep them as we already have them alloc=
ated and although not currently used you never know what someone may come u=
p with a week after they are released...<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Dave Cridland <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dave@cridland.net">dave@cridland.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Fri Jan 14 22:56:38 2011, Joe Hildebrand wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to renew the=
<br>
5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us last<br=
>
time. =A0They will be marked as reserved, and we&#39;ll be able to get them=
 back<br>
later if we need them.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I&#39;d rather keep them, on balance.<br>
<br>
Reasons:<br>
<br>
1) We have them anyway.<br>
<br>
2) It provides a pair of port numbers which are relatively certain to be cl=
ear of any other services, and as such is a reasonable default.<br>
<br>
3) We include both port numbers as a specified fallback in the case where n=
o SRV records exist.<br>
<br>
If we were registering them for the first time, I think we&#39;d need stron=
g arguments, but changing the existing registration requires arguments in f=
avour of dropping, and I don&#39;t see any. I&#39;m willing to change my mi=
nd, of course.<br>

<br>
Dave.<br><font color=3D"#888888">
-- <br>
Dave Cridland - mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dave@cridland.net" target=3D"_blan=
k">dave@cridland.net</a> - <a href=3D"mailto:xmpp%3Adwd@dave.cridland.net" =
target=3D"_blank">xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net</a><br>
=A0- acap://<a href=3D"http://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookm=
arks/" target=3D"_blank">acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/=
</a><br>
=A0- <a href=3D"http://dave.cridland.net/" target=3D"_blank">http://dave.cr=
idland.net/</a><br>
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade</font><div><div></div><=
div class=3D"h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
xmpp mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:xmpp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">xmpp@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Peter Mount=
<br><br>Email: <a href=3D"mailto:peter@retep.org.uk">peter@retep.org.uk</a>=
<br>=A0 Web:=A0 <a href=3D"http://retep.org">http://retep.org</a><br>Phone:=
 +44 (0)7903 155887<br>
=A0XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:peter@retep.org">peter@retep.org</a> (Primary)<b=
r>=A0XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:petermount@gmail.com">petermount@gmail.com</a>=
 (blackberry)<br><br>

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Subject: Re: [xmpp] UDP ports
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On Mon Jan 17 10:23:24 2011, Peter Mount wrote:
> Like Dave just said, I'd rather keep them as we already have them  
> allocated
> and although not currently used you never know what someone may  
> come up with
> a week after they are released...
> 
> 
My point was that they *are* very much currently used; firstly,  
traditionally XMPP services listen on 5222/5269 to the extent that  
finding one that isn't is quite a challenge (xmpp.org being the only  
one I'm aware of).

Secondly,  
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22#section-3.2.2  
refers to them, and this has proven a useful feature of the protocol.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net
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From k.i.smith@gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 02:33:04 2011
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On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:
> On Mon Jan 17 10:23:24 2011, Peter Mount wrote:
>>
>> Like Dave just said, I'd rather keep them as we already have them
>> allocated
>> and although not currently used you never know what someone may come up
>> with
>> a week after they are released...
>>
>>
> My point was that they *are* very much currently used; firstly,
> traditionally XMPP services listen on 5222/5269 to the extent that finding
> one that isn't is quite a challenge (xmpp.org being the only one I'm aware
> of).

Using UDP?

> Secondly,
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22#section-3.2.2 refers
> to them, and this has proven a useful feature of the protocol.

Yes, but 3920bis is explicitly only TCP binding.

/K

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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Kevin Smith <kevin@kismith.co.uk>, Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>, Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>, XMPP Working Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] UDP ports
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On Mon Jan 17 10:35:34 2011, Kevin Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>  
> wrote:
> > On Mon Jan 17 10:23:24 2011, Peter Mount wrote:
> >>
> >> Like Dave just said, I'd rather keep them as we already have them
> >> allocated
> >> and although not currently used you never know what someone may  
> come up
> >> with
> >> a week after they are released...
> >>
> >>
> > My point was that they *are* very much currently used; firstly,
> > traditionally XMPP services listen on 5222/5269 to the extent  
> that finding
> > one that isn't is quite a challenge (xmpp.org being the only one  
> I'm aware
> > of).
> 
> Using UDP?
> 
> 
Oh...

You know, I should have a timelock on my email on a Monday morning.

Yeah, ignore everything I've said, I'm obviously half asleep.


> > Secondly,
> >  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-22#section-3.2.2  
> refers
> > to them, and this has proven a useful feature of the protocol.
> 
> Yes, but 3920bis is explicitly only TCP binding.
> 
> /K

-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net
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From Peter.SaintAndre@webex.com  Mon Jan 17 08:21:36 2011
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----- Original Message -----
From: Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: xmpp-chairs@tools.ietf.org <xmpp-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; =
draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis@tools.ietf.org =
<draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis@tools.ietf.org>
Sent: Mon Jan 17 04:44:08 2011
Subject: Lars Eggert's No Objection on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: =
(withCOMMENT)

Lars Eggert has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)

Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 2.3.3., paragraph 1:
>    the roster get, or even <not-llowed/> if the server only allows

  Nit: s/<not-llowed/>/<not-allowed/>/


Section 4., paragraph 7:
>       presence, or an error occurs in relation to the proble, then the

  Nit: s/proble,/probe,/



From Kurt.Zeilenga@Isode.COM  Mon Jan 17 10:41:56 2011
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On Jan 14, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Joe Hildebrand wrote:

> Going through the port registrations for 3920, I told IANA not to =
renew the
> 5222/udp and 5269/udp registrations that they automatically gave us =
last
> time.  They will be marked as reserved, and we'll be able to get them =
back
> later if we need them.

I assume these were only assigned due to past practices, not because we =
specifically requested them.  I see no reason to specifically request =
these now.  If ever we need these, we can request them then.  As IANA =
notes, they will be reserved.

-- Kurt=

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Jan 18 10:39:41 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] Fwd: [Summit] room update
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FYI.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Summit] room update
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:41:54 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Reply-To: XMPP Summit <summit@xmpp.org>
To: XMPP Summit <summit@xmpp.org>

BTW, I've changed our room reservation at the Cisco office outside
Brussels -- our new room will fit 50 people. That's the largest meeting
room at the facility, so 50 is our new (hard) limit.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Subject: [xmpp] Fwd: Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
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FYI. I'll reply to Robert's feedback later today or perhaps tomorrow.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with
DISCUSS	and COMMENT)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:02:09 -0800
From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis@tools.ietf.org, xmpp-chairs@tools.ietf.org

Robert Sparks has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)

Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS
In section 3.1.3 item 4, a server is required to keep a complete
presence stanza for an unbounded amount of time (potentially forever).
This looks like a vector for a state-exhaustion attack. The restriction
for keeping only one such stanza per sender helps, but a malicious
attacking server could send stanzas from an arbitrary number of
identites. I suggest providing implementation guidance on when it's ok
to drop information that's truly stale, and call out the potential for
this attack in the security considerations.

Section 5.2.4 calls out "for the purpose of providing alternate versions
of the same subject" when allowing multiple subjects to appear with
different xml:lang attributes. Section 5.2.3 does not have analogous
text constraining multiple bodies. Should it?

Section 5.3 - Was the intent to constrain the contents of a message
stanza to things intended to be rendered to a user? As written, this
section would allow <message/> to be used as part of the framing of an
arbitrary transport protocol.

Section 5.3 - The document should say what an implementation receiving a
child element in a namespace it doesn't understand should do with that
child.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT

In section 2.3.3, is the intent that error conditions listed earlier in
the section take precedence over error conditions listed later in the
section? What's the appropriate response if a message qualifies for both
a <forbidden/> and a <bad-request/> as described in this section?

When would an element choose not to follow the SHOULD in 3.1.2 item 1,
and what are the consequences?

The end of section 4.3 has an implementation note containing normative
requirements. Can these be moved into the main prose?  This same
implementation note may be easy to misinterpret. I don't believe it is
meant to prevent an implementation from returning an error to a
malformed presence probe, but it could be read that way.

Section 5.2.5 does not prevent a thread from claiming it is its own
parent (should that be allowed?), or warn implementations about the
possibility of thread A indicating a parent of B, and thread B
indicating a parent of A (generalize this to any kind of cycle). I don't
think XEP-0201 calls this out either. Should it be mentioned as an
implementation consideration? (A naive implementation would very likely
crash or do something surprising with its UI.)

In section 8.5.2.1, I encourage adding text explaining why delivering to
all non-negative resources is SHOULD and not MUST. I understand from
out-of-band communication that local policy may determine that some
particular resource not receive the message, but the document does not
say this. As written, I can see implementations that adopt a policy of
delivering to the first non-negative resource and claim they've met the
requirement.




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From rbarnes@bbn.com  Wed Jan 19 13:14:41 2011
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Cc: Joe Hildebrand <joe.hildebrand@webex.com>, XMPP Group <xmpp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP Interim Meeting on Internationalization, 7 February 2011
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Sorry this is a little late, but I plan to attend as well.
--Richard


On Jan 12, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

> Oh, and for the sake of completeness: I expect to attend :-)
>=20
> On Jan 10, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>=20
>> HI,
>>=20
>> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to =
attend...".
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Ben.
>>=20
>> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>=20
>>> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting on =
Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem, Belgium (Near =
Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in conjunction with the 10th =
XMPP Summit ( http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 =
)  sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.=20
>>>=20
>>> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem.
>>>=20
>>> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating Internationalization =
features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may additionally discuss Domain =
Name Assertions and end-to-end encryption. We will provide a more =
detailed agenda as the event approaches.
>>>=20
>>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to =
xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there is =
sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person but wish =
participate remotely, please indicate so to the same list.=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmpp mailing list
>>> xmpp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmpp mailing list
>> xmpp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xmpp mailing list
> xmpp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Jan 19 13:16:24 2011
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Cool. I'm sure we'll be able to squeeze you in. :)

On 1/19/11 2:17 PM, Richard L. Barnes wrote:
> Sorry this is a little late, but I plan to attend as well. --Richard
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 12, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>=20
>> Oh, and for the sake of completeness: I expect to attend :-)
>>=20
>> On Jan 10, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>=20
>>> HI,
>>>=20
>>> Please notice the paragraph below starting with "If you plan to
>>> attend...".
>>>=20
>>> Thanks!
>>>=20
>>> Ben.
>>>=20
>>> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> The XMPP Working group will hold a face-to-face interim meeting
>>>> on Monday, 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET in Diegem,
>>>> Belgium (Near Brussels and BRU) . This meeting will be in
>>>> conjunction with the 10th XMPP Summit (
>>>> http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10 )
>>>> sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation.
>>>>=20
>>>> Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831
>>>> Diegem.
>>>>=20
>>>> Purpose: Determine the direction for updating
>>>> Internationalization features in XMPP.  If time permits, we may
>>>> additionally discuss Domain Name Assertions and end-to-end
>>>> encryption. We will provide a more detailed agenda as the event
>>>> approaches.
>>>>=20
>>>> If you plan to attend, please indicate so in an email to
>>>> xmpp@ietf.org. Remote participation may be available if there
>>>> is sufficient interest and need. If you cannot attend in person
>>>> but wish participate remotely, please indicate so to the same
>>>> list. _______________________________________________ xmpp
>>>> mailing list xmpp@ietf.org=20
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________ xmpp mailing
>>> list xmpp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ xmpp mailing list=20
>> xmpp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
>=20
> _______________________________________________ xmpp mailing list=20
> xmpp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp


--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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[ cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org to keep the WG in the loop ]

On 1/19/11 2:02 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> Robert Sparks has entered the following ballot position for=20
> draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: Discuss
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
> Please refer to
> http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more
> information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>=20
DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  DISCUSS In section 3.1.3 item 4, a server is required to keep a
> complete presence stanza for an unbounded amount of time (potentially
> forever).  This looks like a vector for a state-exhaustion attack.
> The restriction for keeping only one such stanza per sender helps,
> but a malicious attacking server could send stanzas from an arbitrary
> number of identites. > I suggest providing implementation guidance on
> when it's ok to drop information that's truly stale, and call out the
> potential for this attack in the security considerations.

You're right that we had not considered this attack. Possibly also the
attack is not limited to a rogue server -- e.g., a botnet spread across
multiple accounts on one or more servers could flood a victim server or
victim account with presence subscription requests.

I propose the following text:

      Security Warning: The mandate for the contact's server to store
      the complete stanza of the presence subscription request
      introduces the possibility of an application resource exhaustion
      attack (see Section 2.1.2 of [DOS]), for example by a rogue server
      or a coordinated group of users (e.g., a botnet) against the
      contact's server or particular contact.  Server implementors are
      advised to consider the possibility of such attacks and provide
      tools for counteracting it, such as enabling service
      administrators to set limits on the number or size of inbound
      presence subscription requests that the server will store in
      aggregate or for any given contact.

> Section 5.2.4 calls out "for the purpose of providing alternate
> versions of the same subject" when allowing multiple subjects to
> appear with different xml:lang attributes. Section 5.2.3 does not
> have analogous text constraining multiple bodies. Should it?

Yes, it should. Fixed in my working copy.

> Section 5.3 - Was the intent to constrain the contents of a message
> stanza to things intended to be rendered to a user?=20

No.

> As written, this
> section would allow <message/> to be used as part of the framing of
> an arbitrary transport protocol.

Yep. Here is an example:

http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html

And that works quite well, too! However, we've been working to get folks
to use <iq/> stanzas for in-band bytestreams for better flow control.

> Section 5.3 - The document should say what an implementation
> receiving a child element in a namespace it doesn't understand should
> do with that child.

That's covered in Section 8.4 of draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis, and inherited
thereby.

I propose modifying the paragraph as follows:

   As described in [XMPP-CORE], an XML stanza MAY contain any child
   element that is qualified by a namespace other than the default
   namespace; this applies to the message stanza as well.  Guidelines
   for handling extended content on the part of both routing servers and
   end recipients are provided in Section 8.4 of [XMPP-CORE].

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>=20
COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  COMMENT
>=20
> In section 2.3.3, is the intent that error conditions listed earlier
> in the section take precedence over error conditions listed later in
> the section? What's the appropriate response if a message qualifies
> for both a <forbidden/> and a <bad-request/> as described in this
> section?

That up to the implementation. In general, implementations seem to take
security-related transgressions (e.g., <forbidden/>) more seriously than
protocol-related peccadilloes (e.g., <bad-request/>).

> When would an element choose not to follow the SHOULD in 3.1.2 item
> 1, and what are the consequences?

There are two points covered in this paragraph:

1. Whether the JID is a bare JID or a full JID. In some deployments it
might be fine to allow full JIDs to subscribe, however we tend to
discourage that, thus the SHOULD. The consequences mostly relate to the
subscriber, not the subscribee, so as far as I know there is no strong
agreement in the developer community about making this a MUST.

2. Whether the subscriber JID adheres to the JID format. In general, it
is the responsibility of the sending server to authenticate entities
correctly and enforce the JID format, not the responsibility of a server
or end recipient. This is related somewhat to the address spec (and
rfc3920[bis]), which have never been completely clear about which
entities are responsible for enforcing the JID format. However, if
anything that would be the responsibility of the sending server, and
this will be clarified in revisions to the address spec. Probably that
will be a topic at the interim meeting a few weeks from now.

Given my reading of the community, SHOULD is as strong as we can get
here for now.

> The end of section 4.3 has an implementation note containing
> normative requirements. Can these be moved into the main prose? >

Done in my working copy.

> This
> same implementation note may be easy to misinterpret. I don't believe
> it is meant to prevent an implementation from returning an error to a
> malformed presence probe, but it could be read that way.

I propose the following modified paragraph:

   Presence probes SHOULD NOT be sent by a client, because in general a
   client will not need to send them since the task of gathering
   presence from a user's contacts is managed by the user's server.
   However, if a user's client generates an outbound presence probe then
   the user's server SHOULD route the probe (if the contact is at
   another server) or process the probe (if the contact is at the same
   server) and MUST NOT use its receipt of the presence probe from a
   connected client as a cause for returning a stanza or stream error to
   the client.

The last clause speaks to a bug that existed in at least one XMPP
server: if a connected client sent a presence probe then the server
would return a presence error or even terminate the client's session.
Hopefully the revised text is a bit clearer.

> Section 5.2.5 does not prevent a thread from claiming it is its own
> parent (should that be allowed?), or warn implementations about the
> possibility of thread A indicating a parent of B, and thread B
> indicating a parent of A (generalize this to any kind of cycle). I
> don't think XEP-0201 calls this out either. Should it be mentioned as
> an implementation consideration? (A naive implementation would very
> likely crash or do something surprising with its UI.)

You're right that we had not considered that scenario.

Does the following text address your concern?

###

   The <thread/> element MAY possess a 'parent' attribute that
   identifies another thread of which the current thread is an offshoot
   or child.  The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
   <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the XML
   character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
   attribute is included.

      Implementation Note: The ability to specify both a parent thread
      and a child thread introduces the possibility of conflicts between
      thread identifiers for overlapping threads.  For example, one
      <thread/> element might contain XML character data of "foo" and a
      'parent' attribute whose value is "bar", a second <thread/>
      element might contain XML character data of "bar" and a 'parent'
      attribute whose value is "baz", and a third <thread/> element
      might contain XML character data of "baz" and a 'parent' attribute
      whose value is once again "foo".  It is up to the implementation
      how it will treat conflicts between such overlapping thread
      identifiers (e.g., whether it will "chain together" thread
      identifiers by showing "foo" as both a parent and grandchild of
      "baz" in a multi-level user interface, or whether it will show
      only one level of dependency at a time).

###

> In section 8.5.2.1, I encourage adding text explaining why delivering
> to all non-negative resources is SHOULD and not MUST. I understand
> from out-of-band communication that local policy may determine that
> some particular resource not receive the message, but the document
> does not say this. As written, I can see implementations that adopt a
> policy of delivering to the first non-negative resource and claim
> they've met the requirement.

I assume you're referring to this paragraph in the subsection about
message stanzas (8.5.2.1.1):

   o  If there is more than one resource with a non-negative presence
      priority then the server SHOULD either (a) deliver the message to
      the "most available" resource or resources (according to the
      server's implementation-specific algorithm, e.g., treating the
      resource or resources with the highest presence priority as "most
      available") or (b) deliver the message to all of the non-negative
      resources.

The traditional behavior was (a). Some implementations and deployments
follow (b) -- the first major example was the Google Talk service. In
the XMPP WG we had some discussions about this and decided to allow (b)
if the implementation or deployment deems that necessary or desirable.
However, making (b) a MUST and disallowing (a) was too large a change
from existing practice.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> [ cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org to keep the WG in the loop ]
>=20
> On 1/19/11 2:02 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>> Robert Sparks has entered the following ballot position for=20
>> draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: Discuss
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>> Please refer to
>> http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more
>> information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
> DISCUSS:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> DISCUSS In section 3.1.3 item 4, a server is required to keep a
>> complete presence stanza for an unbounded amount of time (potentially
>> forever).  This looks like a vector for a state-exhaustion attack.
>> The restriction for keeping only one such stanza per sender helps,
>> but a malicious attacking server could send stanzas from an arbitrary
>> number of identites. > I suggest providing implementation guidance on
>> when it's ok to drop information that's truly stale, and call out the
>> potential for this attack in the security considerations.
>=20
> You're right that we had not considered this attack. Possibly also the
> attack is not limited to a rogue server -- e.g., a botnet spread =
across
> multiple accounts on one or more servers could flood a victim server =
or
> victim account with presence subscription requests.
>=20
> I propose the following text:
>=20
>      Security Warning: The mandate for the contact's server to store
>      the complete stanza of the presence subscription request
>      introduces the possibility of an application resource exhaustion
>      attack (see Section 2.1.2 of [DOS]), for example by a rogue =
server
>      or a coordinated group of users (e.g., a botnet) against the
>      contact's server or particular contact.  Server implementors are
>      advised to consider the possibility of such attacks and provide
>      tools for counteracting it, such as enabling service
>      administrators to set limits on the number or size of inbound
>      presence subscription requests that the server will store in
>      aggregate or for any given contact.
wfm
>=20
>> Section 5.2.4 calls out "for the purpose of providing alternate
>> versions of the same subject" when allowing multiple subjects to
>> appear with different xml:lang attributes. Section 5.2.3 does not
>> have analogous text constraining multiple bodies. Should it?
>=20
> Yes, it should. Fixed in my working copy.
>=20
>> Section 5.3 - Was the intent to constrain the contents of a message
>> stanza to things intended to be rendered to a user?=20
>=20
> No.
>=20
>> As written, this
>> section would allow <message/> to be used as part of the framing of
>> an arbitrary transport protocol.
>=20
> Yep. Here is an example:
>=20
> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html
>=20
> And that works quite well, too! However, we've been working to get =
folks
> to use <iq/> stanzas for in-band bytestreams for better flow control.

Noted.=20

>=20
>> Section 5.3 - The document should say what an implementation
>> receiving a child element in a namespace it doesn't understand should
>> do with that child.
>=20
> That's covered in Section 8.4 of draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis, and =
inherited
> thereby.
>=20
> I propose modifying the paragraph as follows:
>=20
>   As described in [XMPP-CORE], an XML stanza MAY contain any child
>   element that is qualified by a namespace other than the default
>   namespace; this applies to the message stanza as well.  Guidelines
>   for handling extended content on the part of both routing servers =
and
>   end recipients are provided in Section 8.4 of [XMPP-CORE].
wfm
>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> COMMENT
>>=20
>> In section 2.3.3, is the intent that error conditions listed earlier
>> in the section take precedence over error conditions listed later in
>> the section? What's the appropriate response if a message qualifies
>> for both a <forbidden/> and a <bad-request/> as described in this
>> section?
>=20
> That up to the implementation. In general, implementations seem to =
take
> security-related transgressions (e.g., <forbidden/>) more seriously =
than
> protocol-related peccadilloes (e.g., <bad-request/>).

Right now it's implicitly up to the implementation - consider making it =
explicit?
I can see interop arguments over this point.

>=20
>> When would an element choose not to follow the SHOULD in 3.1.2 item
>> 1, and what are the consequences?
>=20
> There are two points covered in this paragraph:
>=20
> 1. Whether the JID is a bare JID or a full JID. In some deployments it
> might be fine to allow full JIDs to subscribe, however we tend to
> discourage that, thus the SHOULD. The consequences mostly relate to =
the
> subscriber, not the subscribee, so as far as I know there is no strong
> agreement in the developer community about making this a MUST.
>=20
> 2. Whether the subscriber JID adheres to the JID format. In general, =
it
> is the responsibility of the sending server to authenticate entities
> correctly and enforce the JID format, not the responsibility of a =
server
> or end recipient. This is related somewhat to the address spec (and
> rfc3920[bis]), which have never been completely clear about which
> entities are responsible for enforcing the JID format. However, if
> anything that would be the responsibility of the sending server, and
> this will be clarified in revisions to the address spec. Probably that
> will be a topic at the interim meeting a few weeks from now.
>=20
> Given my reading of the community, SHOULD is as strong as we can get
> here for now.

My question was about "SHOULD check the syntax" not "SHOULD  treat it
as if". Apologies for not being more clear.
As you talk about the clarifications you indicate in 2), consider =
writing
your normative text more strongly and noting that there are existing =
implementations
that may not yet comply.

>=20
>> The end of section 4.3 has an implementation note containing
>> normative requirements. Can these be moved into the main prose? >
>=20
> Done in my working copy.
>=20
>> This
>> same implementation note may be easy to misinterpret. I don't believe
>> it is meant to prevent an implementation from returning an error to a
>> malformed presence probe, but it could be read that way.
>=20
> I propose the following modified paragraph:
>=20
>   Presence probes SHOULD NOT be sent by a client, because in general a
>   client will not need to send them since the task of gathering
>   presence from a user's contacts is managed by the user's server.
>   However, if a user's client generates an outbound presence probe =
then
>   the user's server SHOULD route the probe (if the contact is at
>   another server) or process the probe (if the contact is at the same
>   server) and MUST NOT use its receipt of the presence probe from a
>   connected client as a cause for returning a stanza or stream error =
to
>   the client.

That text is more clear, but it still has the potential for the misread =
I'm pointing to.=20
A change along the lines of "as a cause" to "as the sole reason" would =
close the=20
hole I think I see.


>=20
> The last clause speaks to a bug that existed in at least one XMPP
> server: if a connected client sent a presence probe then the server
> would return a presence error or even terminate the client's session.
> Hopefully the revised text is a bit clearer.
>=20
>> Section 5.2.5 does not prevent a thread from claiming it is its own
>> parent (should that be allowed?), or warn implementations about the
>> possibility of thread A indicating a parent of B, and thread B
>> indicating a parent of A (generalize this to any kind of cycle). I
>> don't think XEP-0201 calls this out either. Should it be mentioned as
>> an implementation consideration? (A naive implementation would very
>> likely crash or do something surprising with its UI.)
>=20
> You're right that we had not considered that scenario.
>=20
> Does the following text address your concern?
>=20
> ###
>=20
>   The <thread/> element MAY possess a 'parent' attribute that
>   identifies another thread of which the current thread is an offshoot
>   or child.  The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
>   <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the =
XML
>   character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
>   attribute is included.
>=20
>      Implementation Note: The ability to specify both a parent thread
>      and a child thread introduces the possibility of conflicts =
between
>      thread identifiers for overlapping threads.  For example, one
>      <thread/> element might contain XML character data of "foo" and a
>      'parent' attribute whose value is "bar", a second <thread/>
>      element might contain XML character data of "bar" and a 'parent'
>      attribute whose value is "baz", and a third <thread/> element
>      might contain XML character data of "baz" and a 'parent' =
attribute
>      whose value is once again "foo".  It is up to the implementation
>      how it will treat conflicts between such overlapping thread
>      identifiers (e.g., whether it will "chain together" thread
>      identifiers by showing "foo" as both a parent and grandchild of
>      "baz" in a multi-level user interface, or whether it will show
>      only one level of dependency at a time).
>=20
> ###
That's certainly enough to get the implementer to start thinking about
the edge cases. I'm not sure it would cause them to recognize they need =
to deal with=20
     <thread parent=3D'foo'>
       foo
     </thread>
reasonably, and still wonder if the spec should say something about =
whether that should
be allowed, but leave that to your judgement.

>=20
>> In section 8.5.2.1, I encourage adding text explaining why delivering
>> to all non-negative resources is SHOULD and not MUST. I understand
>> from out-of-band communication that local policy may determine that
>> some particular resource not receive the message, but the document
>> does not say this. As written, I can see implementations that adopt a
>> policy of delivering to the first non-negative resource and claim
>> they've met the requirement.
>=20
> I assume you're referring to this paragraph in the subsection about
> message stanzas (8.5.2.1.1):
>=20
>   o  If there is more than one resource with a non-negative presence
>      priority then the server SHOULD either (a) deliver the message to
>      the "most available" resource or resources (according to the
>      server's implementation-specific algorithm, e.g., treating the
>      resource or resources with the highest presence priority as "most
>      available") or (b) deliver the message to all of the non-negative
>      resources.

For all of the similar paragraphs for "normal", "chat", and "headline"

>=20
> The traditional behavior was (a). Some implementations and deployments
> follow (b) -- the first major example was the Google Talk service. In
> the XMPP WG we had some discussions about this and decided to allow =
(b)
> if the implementation or deployment deems that necessary or desirable.
> However, making (b) a MUST and disallowing (a) was too large a change
> from existing practice.

We might be talking past each other a bit (since I made a similar =
comment on 3920).
I'm not asking for discarding a and making b a MUST. I'm suggesting it =
would be
better to say MUST (a or b) instead of SHOULD (a or b).

That said, you could argue that the implementation choice I call about =
above could be
justified as an instance of a) with a local policy of "the first =
non-negative resource I can=20
find is the 'most available'", so the difference may not be great enough =
to bother.

>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>=20
>=20
>=20


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Jan 20 14:16:19 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Snipping areas of agreement...

On 1/20/11 2:53 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>=20
> On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>=20
>> [ cc'ing xmpp@ietf.org to keep the WG in the loop ]
>>
>> On 1/19/11 2:02 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:

<snip/>

>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>
>>>
>> COMMENT:
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>
>>> COMMENT
>>>
>>> In section 2.3.3, is the intent that error conditions listed earlier
>>> in the section take precedence over error conditions listed later in
>>> the section? What's the appropriate response if a message qualifies
>>> for both a <forbidden/> and a <bad-request/> as described in this
>>> section?
>>
>> That up to the implementation. In general, implementations seem to tak=
e
>> security-related transgressions (e.g., <forbidden/>) more seriously th=
an
>> protocol-related peccadilloes (e.g., <bad-request/>).
>=20
> Right now it's implicitly up to the implementation - consider making it=
 explicit?
> I can see interop arguments over this point.

Probably the best place for text on this point is rfc3920bis, because it
relates to generic error handling, not rosters specifically.

>>> When would an element choose not to follow the SHOULD in 3.1.2 item
>>> 1, and what are the consequences?
>>
>> There are two points covered in this paragraph:
>>
>> 1. Whether the JID is a bare JID or a full JID. In some deployments it=

>> might be fine to allow full JIDs to subscribe, however we tend to
>> discourage that, thus the SHOULD. The consequences mostly relate to th=
e
>> subscriber, not the subscribee, so as far as I know there is no strong=

>> agreement in the developer community about making this a MUST.
>>
>> 2. Whether the subscriber JID adheres to the JID format. In general, i=
t
>> is the responsibility of the sending server to authenticate entities
>> correctly and enforce the JID format, not the responsibility of a serv=
er
>> or end recipient. This is related somewhat to the address spec (and
>> rfc3920[bis]), which have never been completely clear about which
>> entities are responsible for enforcing the JID format. However, if
>> anything that would be the responsibility of the sending server, and
>> this will be clarified in revisions to the address spec. Probably that=

>> will be a topic at the interim meeting a few weeks from now.
>>
>> Given my reading of the community, SHOULD is as strong as we can get
>> here for now.
>=20
> My question was about "SHOULD check the syntax" not "SHOULD  treat it
> as if". Apologies for not being more clear.
> As you talk about the clarifications you indicate in 2), consider writi=
ng
> your normative text more strongly and noting that there are existing im=
plementations
> that may not yet comply.

I think that's a better path.

>>> The end of section 4.3 has an implementation note containing
>>> normative requirements. Can these be moved into the main prose? >
>>
>> Done in my working copy.
>>
>>> This
>>> same implementation note may be easy to misinterpret. I don't believe=

>>> it is meant to prevent an implementation from returning an error to a=

>>> malformed presence probe, but it could be read that way.
>>
>> I propose the following modified paragraph:
>>
>>   Presence probes SHOULD NOT be sent by a client, because in general a=

>>   client will not need to send them since the task of gathering
>>   presence from a user's contacts is managed by the user's server.
>>   However, if a user's client generates an outbound presence probe the=
n
>>   the user's server SHOULD route the probe (if the contact is at
>>   another server) or process the probe (if the contact is at the same
>>   server) and MUST NOT use its receipt of the presence probe from a
>>   connected client as a cause for returning a stanza or stream error t=
o
>>   the client.
>=20
> That text is more clear, but it still has the potential for the misread=
 I'm pointing to.=20
> A change along the lines of "as a cause" to "as the sole reason" would =
close the=20
> hole I think I see.

Done.

>>> Section 5.2.5 does not prevent a thread from claiming it is its own
>>> parent (should that be allowed?), or warn implementations about the
>>> possibility of thread A indicating a parent of B, and thread B
>>> indicating a parent of A (generalize this to any kind of cycle). I
>>> don't think XEP-0201 calls this out either. Should it be mentioned as=

>>> an implementation consideration? (A naive implementation would very
>>> likely crash or do something surprising with its UI.)
>>
>> You're right that we had not considered that scenario.
>>
>> Does the following text address your concern?
>>
>> ###
>>
>>   The <thread/> element MAY possess a 'parent' attribute that
>>   identifies another thread of which the current thread is an offshoot=

>>   or child.  The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
>>   <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the XM=
L
>>   character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
>>   attribute is included.
>>
>>      Implementation Note: The ability to specify both a parent thread
>>      and a child thread introduces the possibility of conflicts betwee=
n
>>      thread identifiers for overlapping threads.  For example, one
>>      <thread/> element might contain XML character data of "foo" and a=

>>      'parent' attribute whose value is "bar", a second <thread/>
>>      element might contain XML character data of "bar" and a 'parent'
>>      attribute whose value is "baz", and a third <thread/> element
>>      might contain XML character data of "baz" and a 'parent' attribut=
e
>>      whose value is once again "foo".  It is up to the implementation
>>      how it will treat conflicts between such overlapping thread
>>      identifiers (e.g., whether it will "chain together" thread
>>      identifiers by showing "foo" as both a parent and grandchild of
>>      "baz" in a multi-level user interface, or whether it will show
>>      only one level of dependency at a time).
>>
>> ###
> That's certainly enough to get the implementer to start thinking about
> the edge cases. I'm not sure it would cause them to recognize they need=
 to deal with=20
>      <thread parent=3D'foo'>
>        foo
>      </thread>
> reasonably, and still wonder if the spec should say something about whe=
ther that should
> be allowed, but leave that to your judgement.

The revised text I sent includes this sentence:

   The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
   <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the XML
   character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
   attribute is included.

Do you think we need to advise a client how to handle data that violates
the second clause?

>>> In section 8.5.2.1, I encourage adding text explaining why delivering=

>>> to all non-negative resources is SHOULD and not MUST. I understand
>>> from out-of-band communication that local policy may determine that
>>> some particular resource not receive the message, but the document
>>> does not say this. As written, I can see implementations that adopt a=

>>> policy of delivering to the first non-negative resource and claim
>>> they've met the requirement.
>>
>> I assume you're referring to this paragraph in the subsection about
>> message stanzas (8.5.2.1.1):
>>
>>   o  If there is more than one resource with a non-negative presence
>>      priority then the server SHOULD either (a) deliver the message to=

>>      the "most available" resource or resources (according to the
>>      server's implementation-specific algorithm, e.g., treating the
>>      resource or resources with the highest presence priority as "most=

>>      available") or (b) deliver the message to all of the non-negative=

>>      resources.
>=20
> For all of the similar paragraphs for "normal", "chat", and "headline"

Right.

>> The traditional behavior was (a). Some implementations and deployments=

>> follow (b) -- the first major example was the Google Talk service. In
>> the XMPP WG we had some discussions about this and decided to allow (b=
)
>> if the implementation or deployment deems that necessary or desirable.=

>> However, making (b) a MUST and disallowing (a) was too large a change
>> from existing practice.
>=20
> We might be talking past each other a bit (since I made a similar comme=
nt on 3920).
> I'm not asking for discarding a and making b a MUST. I'm suggesting it =
would be
> better to say MUST (a or b) instead of SHOULD (a or b).

Yes, I think that would be appropriate.

> That said, you could argue that the implementation choice I call about =
above could be
> justified as an instance of a) with a local policy of "the first non-ne=
gative resource I can=20
> find is the 'most available'", so the difference may not be great enoug=
h to bother.

I think "MUST (a or b)" would be better.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From rjsparks@nostrum.com  Thu Jan 20 14:26:55 2011
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From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] Robert Sparks' Discuss on draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Also trimming

On Jan 20, 2011, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

<snip/>

>>> Does the following text address your concern?
>>>=20
>>> ###
>>>=20
>>>  The <thread/> element MAY possess a 'parent' attribute that
>>>  identifies another thread of which the current thread is an =
offshoot
>>>  or child.  The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
>>>  <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the =
XML
>>>  character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
>>>  attribute is included.
>>>=20
>>>     Implementation Note: The ability to specify both a parent thread
>>>     and a child thread introduces the possibility of conflicts =
between
>>>     thread identifiers for overlapping threads.  For example, one
>>>     <thread/> element might contain XML character data of "foo" and =
a
>>>     'parent' attribute whose value is "bar", a second <thread/>
>>>     element might contain XML character data of "bar" and a 'parent'
>>>     attribute whose value is "baz", and a third <thread/> element
>>>     might contain XML character data of "baz" and a 'parent' =
attribute
>>>     whose value is once again "foo".  It is up to the implementation
>>>     how it will treat conflicts between such overlapping thread
>>>     identifiers (e.g., whether it will "chain together" thread
>>>     identifiers by showing "foo" as both a parent and grandchild of
>>>     "baz" in a multi-level user interface, or whether it will show
>>>     only one level of dependency at a time).
>>>=20
>>> ###
>> That's certainly enough to get the implementer to start thinking =
about
>> the edge cases. I'm not sure it would cause them to recognize they =
need to deal with=20
>>     <thread parent=3D'foo'>
>>       foo
>>     </thread>
>> reasonably, and still wonder if the spec should say something about =
whether that should
>> be allowed, but leave that to your judgement.
>=20
> The revised text I sent includes this sentence:
>=20
>   The 'parent' attribute MUST conform to the syntax of the
>   <thread/> element itself and its value MUST be different from the =
XML
>   character data of the <thread/> element on which the 'parent'
>   attribute is included.
>=20
> Do you think we need to advise a client how to handle data that =
violates
> the second clause?

No, I totally missed that on my read through (I focused on the =
Implementation note) - sorry.

>=20
>=20


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Jan 20 18:37:24 2011
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:40:03 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [xmpp] draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20
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FYI, I have submitted version -20 of draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis to address
feedback provided by the IESG:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt

The diff is here:

http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Instant Messaging and Presence
	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
	Filename        : draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt
	Pages           : 116
	Date            : 2011-01-20

This document defines extensions to core features of the Extensible
Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) that provide basic instant
messaging (IM) and presence functionality in conformance with the
requirements in RFC 2779.  This document obsoletes RFC 3921.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Sat Jan 22 00:26:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [xmpp] I-D Action:draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt
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Hi,

this version addresses all the comments received during its IESG
evaluation. You can check the diffs in the ID tracker. I intend to
approve it shortly.

Cheers,

Gonzalo

On 21/01/2011 4:45 AM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 
> 	Title           : Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Instant Messaging and Presence
> 	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt
> 	Pages           : 116
> 	Date            : 2011-01-20
> 
> This document defines extensions to core features of the Extensible
> Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) that provide basic instant
> messaging (IM) and presence functionality in conformance with the
> requirements in RFC 2779.  This document obsoletes RFC 3921.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt
> 
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From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Tue Jan 25 09:45:44 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] Protocol Action: 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP):	Instant Messaging and Presence' to Proposed Standard	(draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Instant Messaging
   and Presence'
  (draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis-20.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Extensible Messaging and Presence
Protocol Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Gonzalo Camarillo and Robert Sparks.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis/




Technical Summary

   Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract
   and/or introduction of the document.  If not, this may be 
   an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract
   or introduction.

This document defines extensions to core features of the Extensible
Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) that provide basic instant messaging
(IM) and presence functionality in conformance with the requirements in RFC
2779.  This document obsoletes RFC 3921.

Working Group Summary

   Was there anything in the WG process that is worth noting?
   For example, was there controversy about particular points 
   or were there decisions where the consensus was
   particularly rough? 

There is strong consensus in the working group to publish this document.
There have been many implementations of RFC 3921, and that experience has
been adequately captured in this document.  No points of controversy remain
in the working group.

Document Quality

   Are there existing implementations of the protocol?  Have a 
   significant number of vendors indicated their plan to
   implement the specification?  Are there any reviewers that
   merit special mention as having done a thorough review,
   e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
   conclusion that the document had no substantive issues?  If
   there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type, or other Expert Review,
   what was its course (briefly)?  In the case of a Media Type
   Review, on what date was the request posted?

There are at least 25 server implementations, 50 library implementations,
and 100 client implementations of the XMPP RFCs; a partial list is located
at <http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/> (that list does not include "software as
a service" implementations hosted by service providers such as Google Talk).
Several downloadable software
implementations in each category have been closely tracking the changes
between RFC 3921 and draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis, and many others are currently
being upgraded or are waiting until the replacement RFC is
published before including the modifications in released software.
Interoperability is continually being verified among implementation teams,
over the XMPP network, and at more formal interoperability
testing events sponsored by the XMPP Standards Foundation. It is expected
that official implementation reports will be submitted within a year after
publication of the revised XMPP RFCs.


Personnel

   Who is the Document Shepherd for this document?  Who is the 
   Responsible Area Director?  If the document requires IANA
   experts(s), insert 'The IANA Expert(s) for the registries
   in this document are <TO BE ADDED BY THE AD>.'

The document shepherd for this document is Joe Hildebrand.
The responsible Area Director is Gonzalo Camarillo.
IANA Expertise is not required.

From michaellundberg.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 06:18:57 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02
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Hi All,

I am interested in renewing discussion on
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 and
the corresponding SIP-XMPP interworking I-Ds.

After reading through the documentation, it's my understanding there
are two ways presence information can be mapped between these two
protocols.

1. For each RFC that extends PIDF to support additional presence
values/information, a corresponding RFC to extend XMPP is required
(and vise versa).  Then develop a RFC that describes the mapping
between the two protocols for the presence info.

2. Encapsulate PIDF, and any corresponding extensions to PIDF, in XMPP

Option 1 requires a lot more standards development, since for each
extension, 3 RFCs need to be developed.  However, this option provides
the best way to convey the same presence information across both
protocols.

Option 2 only requires a single SIP-XMPP presence "mapping" RFC. Any
extension to PIDF will automatically be encapsulated in XMPP presence
stanzas.  However, this is only a one-way mapping.  Rich presence
information conveyed in XMPP cannot be translated to SIP, without the
development of a separate RFC.  This option also requires the XMPP end
host to be able to understand the PIDF file.  Although protocol
mapping (i.e., PIDF encapsulation) occurs at the gateway (located at a
client, xmpp server, or separate gateway device), the XMPP end host
must be able to understand the encapsulated PIDF information if it is
being used to carry the presence info.

The current SIP-XMPP Interworking: Presence I-D does not seem to take
a firm stance on either of the above options.

For Option 1, there is no mapping between the XMPP <show> values and a
child within the PIDF <status>.  In RFC3922, the
urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:pidf:im namesapace was used to map this
information.  Although, that namespace does not seem appropriate,
because the presence info could be from any type of service/device,
not just IM; however, a similar mapping seems like it could be
defined.  I=92m also not sure why the current mapping is a SHOULD and
not a MUST in the document.

For Option 2, the encapsulation of the PIDF information is described
as a RECOMMENDATION.  It seems as though if the purpose of the draft
is to promote interoperability between the two protocols, then
stricter wording is required to support one of the two Options, as
this will impact future draft development.

Please let me know if I am missing something, as I was not involved in
the original discussions surrounding the development of this I-D. I
think this is good work that needs to continue in order to promote
interworking between these two protocols.

Thanks,
Michael

From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Wed Jan 26 12:17:28 2011
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Subject: [xmpp] XMPP trilogy
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Hi,

as you have probably noticed by now, the whole XMPP trilogy already is
in the RFC Editor's queue:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/xmpp/

Cheers,

Gonzalo