From ben@nostrum.com Tue Feb 1 07:08:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DF33A6CEA for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:08:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XAD6qaIjwNP5 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225583A6C05 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (cpe-76-183-178-106.tx.res.rr.com [76.183.178.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p11FBgFR058078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:11:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:11:41 -0600 Message-Id: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> To: XMPP Group Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 76.183.178.106 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Subject: [xmpp] Agenda for the Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 15:08:27 -0000 Hi, Here's the agenda for the interim meeting. Please send any comments, or = requests for adjustment, to the list as soon as possible. Please = remember the room is expected to be very full, so please let us know in = advance if you have not already done so and plan to attend. Thanks! Ben. ----------------------------------- Interim Meeting of the IETF XMPP Working Group, in conjunction with XMPP = Summit 10. Date and Time: Monday 7 February, 2011 from 1300-1630 CET Location: Cisco Systems, Pegasus Park, De Kleetlaan 6, 1831 Diegem, = Belgium (Brussels) Agenda: -- Status and Agenda Bashing: 10 minutes -- Chairs -- Internationalization Issues: 120 minutes -- Peter -- Domain Name Assertions: 30 minutes -- Richard -- SASL preference ordering: 15 minutes -- Alexey and/or Peter -- Handling namespace prefix rule violations: 15 Minutes -- Matthew = and/or Peter -- Open Discussion: Any remaining time and energy. = =09 Please note that the Internationalization topic has priority for this = meeting. If we run out of time while having useful discussion, more time = may be allocated at the expense of the other topics. From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Feb 1 07:18:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2E13A6D48 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:18:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fPOjTodLbWEV for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C883A6C05 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (dsl-251-175.dynamic-dsl.frii.net [216.17.251.175]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C1AE400F6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:39:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 08:22:13 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050209080307050501070003" Subject: Re: [xmpp] Agenda for the Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 15:18:59 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050209080307050501070003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Ben! A few comments inline. On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > -- Internationalization Issues: 120 minutes -- Peter I've created slides for a tutorial on this topic, which I plan to present on Friday at the "hackfest". I need to tweak the slides today but will send them out before flying to Brussels tomorrow. > -- Domain Name Assertions: 30 minutes -- Richard Perhaps Richard or Joe could post about this. I'm hoping that they can do some brainstorming around the topic with Jonas Lindberg before the meeting on Monday. > -- SASL preference ordering: 15 minutes -- Alexey and/or Peter Alexey, could you post to the list about that issue? > -- Handling namespace prefix rule violations: 15 Minutes -- Matthew > and/or Peter This is something that Matthew Wild and I discussed privately a few weeks ago. I'll send a message to the list summarizing our discussion and conclusions. 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From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Feb 1 12:27:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609F23A6846 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5BhTrHS51J1 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD213A6C6F for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from leavealone.cisco.com (72-163-0-129.cisco.com [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0F16400F6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:47:59 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:31:09 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060704070601000406010706" Subject: [xmpp] SASL preference order (was: Re: Agenda for the Interim Meeting) X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 20:27:56 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060704070601000406010706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 > On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >> -- SASL preference ordering: 15 minutes -- Alexey and/or Peter >=20 > Alexey, could you post to the list about that issue? I forgot that Alexey is offline most of this week, so I'll raise the issu= e. Section 6.3.3 of 3920bis states: Any entity that will act as a SASL client or a SASL server MUST maintain an ordered list of its preferred SASL mechanisms according to the client or server, where the list is ordered according to local policy or user configuration (which SHOULD be in order of perceived strength to enable the strongest authentication possible). The initiating entity MUST maintain its own preference order independent of the preference order of the receiving entity. A server MUST offer and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. For example, if the server offers the ordered list "PLAIN SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI" or "SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI PLAIN" but the client's ordered list is "GSSAPI SCRAM-SHA-1", the client MUST try GSSAPI first and then SCRAM-SHA-1 but MUST NOT try PLAIN (since PLAIN is not on its list). Therefore XMPP mandates the presentation order of SASL mechanisms by the application server. However, no other application protocols that re-use SASL (e.g., IMAP) mandate such a thing. Some people consider this a bug in XMPP (or so it seems -- I have not been privy to their conversations, but I think they are on this list). Others consider it a feature of XMPP, or an example of a protocol aspect that XMPP specifies (because 3920bis is one of the most thorough specifications in existence) despite the fact that other protocols do not= =2E I don't have strong feelings in the matter, and in any case I think the server's preference order doesn't really matter because the client has its own preference order, which it develops independently of the server. I'd appreciate it if those who consider this a bug could make their voices heard on the list. Peter --=20 Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms060704070601000406010706 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIITzjCC BjQwggQcoAMCAQICASMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoT DVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNp Z25pbmcxKTAnBgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3 MTAyNDIxMDMzM1oXDTE3MTAyNDIxMDMzM1owgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1T dGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWdu aW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENs aWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBALmjSW4SPiDKlAinvVeL ZOVfItiuP1aRHL530E7QUc9icCwL33+PH+Js1HAh8CgWFl34sOxx1FJyS/C4VLPRsqDfP72j 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From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Feb 1 12:50:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8463A6C7B for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:50:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id et6lGIDyZA+m for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12B43A6C6F for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from leavealone.cisco.com (72-163-0-129.cisco.com [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18F3E400F6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 14:10:15 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D4872C5.70802@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:53:25 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050803020109040306060908" Subject: [xmpp] namespace prefix violations (was: Re: Agenda for the Interim Meeting) X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 20:50:11 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050803020109040306060908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 > On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >> -- Handling namespace prefix rule violations: 15 Minutes -- Matthew >> and/or Peter >=20 > This is something that Matthew Wild and I discussed privately a few > weeks ago. I'll send a message to the list summarizing our discussion > and conclusions. Matthew and I had a long off-list discussion about this several weeks ago. At issue is this paragraph in Section 4.8.5 of 3920bis: An XMPP entity MUST NOT accept data that violates this rule (in particular, an XMPP server MUST NOT route or deliver such data to another entity); instead it MUST either ignore the data or close the stream with a stream error, which SHOULD be (Section 4.9.3.2). Matthew pointed out to me that some XMPP servers are able to accept such data because they (or the XML parser they use) transform the prefixed data into an unprefixed stanza based on the qualifying namespace. That is, the server essentially corrects the violation, which means that the paragraph as it stands probably violates Postel's Law ("be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send"). After some back-and-forth with Matthew, I suggested the following paragra= ph: If an XMPP entity receives data that violates this rule, it MAY refuse to accept the data because the data is inconsistent with the prefixing context that the sending entity established when it sent the stream header for its outbound stream; i.e., the entity MAY either ignore the data or close the stream with a stream error, which SHOULD be . If an XMPP server accepts such data and routes or delivers the data over an output stream to another entity, then it MUST transform the data into a legitimate stanza whose prefixing context is the same as that of the output stream (e.g., an unprefixed stanza if a content namespace was declared as the default namespace for the output stream). I know that Matthew still has concerns with that paragraph, so I will let him post to the list in reply. My major concern here is that the text about namespace prefixing is a bit fragile and that I think we need more implementation and deployment experience with prefix-free canonicalization at the stream level before we can provide solid text here. That's why I suggested to Matthew that we postpone dealing with this issue until we work on "3920ter" (i.e., the hopefully-small revisions to 3920bis). IMHO there are just too many unknowns here, and we could have some very long mailing list threads (as we have in the past) without coming to consensus at this time. Furthermore, I remind you all of the obvious: 3920bis has been approved for publication, so we need to make sure that any changes are, preferably, editorial in nature or quite small in scope. With that in mind, one small change we could make would be to change MUST to SHOULD and MUST NOT to SHOULD NOT, plus add some clarifying words to the parenthetical clause: An XMPP entity SHOULD NOT accept data that violates this rule (in particular, an XMPP server MUST NOT route or deliver such data to another entity without correcting the violation); instead it SHOULD either ignore the data or close the stream with a stream error, which SHOULD be (Section 4.9.3.2). This allows a server to be liberal in what it accepts, while mandating that it needs to be conservative in what it sends to other entities even if it accepts such data. Personally, I think that's the best we're going to do right now, and that we should revisit this topic when we revise 3920bis. But let's not get into major surgery on 3920bis at this point, because the time for that is past. Peter --=20 Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms050803020109040306060908 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIITzjCC BjQwggQcoAMCAQICASMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoT DVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNp Z25pbmcxKTAnBgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3 MTAyNDIxMDMzM1oXDTE3MTAyNDIxMDMzM1owgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1T dGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWdu aW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENs aWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBALmjSW4SPiDKlAinvVeL ZOVfItiuP1aRHL530E7QUc9icCwL33+PH+Js1HAh8CgWFl34sOxx1FJyS/C4VLPRsqDfP72j 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From simon@josefsson.org Tue Feb 1 13:20:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C1F3A6C57 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:20:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.975 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.376, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2JaqQPZi4iv for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:20:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from yxa-v.extundo.com (yxa-v.extundo.com [213.115.69.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F243A6C4D for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (c80-216-4-108.bredband.comhem.se [80.216.4.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by yxa-v.extundo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p11LNMTU032651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Feb 2011 22:23:25 +0100 From: Simon Josefsson To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt X-Hashcash: 1:22:110201:xmpp@ietf.org::sMaaY2FAX6+LR1/C:24xH X-Hashcash: 1:22:110201:stpeter@stpeter.im::GvKG33zoW786T6zq:35a6 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:23:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> (Peter Saint-Andre's message of "Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:31:09 -0700") Message-ID: <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at yxa-v X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:20:17 -0000 Peter Saint-Andre writes: > Section 6.3.3 of 3920bis states: > > Any entity that will act as a SASL client or a SASL server MUST > maintain an ordered list of its preferred SASL mechanisms according > to the client or server, where the list is ordered according to local > policy or user configuration (which SHOULD be in order of perceived > strength to enable the strongest authentication possible). The > initiating entity MUST maintain its own preference order independent > of the preference order of the receiving entity. A server MUST offer > and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. For > example, if the server offers the ordered list "PLAIN SCRAM-SHA-1 > GSSAPI" or "SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI PLAIN" but the client's ordered list > is "GSSAPI SCRAM-SHA-1", the client MUST try GSSAPI first and then > SCRAM-SHA-1 but MUST NOT try PLAIN (since PLAIN is not on its list). > > Therefore XMPP mandates the presentation order of SASL mechanisms by the > application server. However, no other application protocols that re-use > SASL (e.g., IMAP) mandate such a thing. > > Some people consider this a bug in XMPP (or so it seems -- I have not > been privy to their conversations, but I think they are on this list). > Others consider it a feature of XMPP, or an example of a protocol aspect > that XMPP specifies (because 3920bis is one of the most thorough > specifications in existence) despite the fact that other protocols do not. RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. I believe this speaks for itself, but I'm curious to learn about other point of views. /Simon From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Tue Feb 1 13:25:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C97C3A6C57 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:25:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.122, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YNiu4HC8Oyw for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A71E3A6C4D for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.102] ((unknown) [109.73.6.25]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:28:19 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: NORDNS Message-ID: <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:27:35 +0300 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Simon Josefsson References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> In-Reply-To: <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:25:05 -0000 Simon Josefsson wrote: >Peter Saint-Andre writes: > > >>Section 6.3.3 of 3920bis states: >> >> Any entity that will act as a SASL client or a SASL server MUST >> maintain an ordered list of its preferred SASL mechanisms according >> to the client or server, where the list is ordered according to local >> policy or user configuration (which SHOULD be in order of perceived >> strength to enable the strongest authentication possible). The >> initiating entity MUST maintain its own preference order independent >> of the preference order of the receiving entity. A server MUST offer >> and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. For >> example, if the server offers the ordered list "PLAIN SCRAM-SHA-1 >> GSSAPI" or "SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI PLAIN" but the client's ordered list >> is "GSSAPI SCRAM-SHA-1", the client MUST try GSSAPI first and then >> SCRAM-SHA-1 but MUST NOT try PLAIN (since PLAIN is not on its list). >> >>Therefore XMPP mandates the presentation order of SASL mechanisms by the >>application server. However, no other application protocols that re-use >>SASL (e.g., IMAP) mandate such a thing. >> >>Some people consider this a bug in XMPP (or so it seems -- I have not >>been privy to their conversations, but I think they are on this list). >>Others consider it a feature of XMPP, or an example of a protocol aspect >>that XMPP specifies (because 3920bis is one of the most thorough >>specifications in existence) despite the fact that other protocols do not. >> >> >RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: > > 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation > > Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. > > Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises > supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility > provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" > mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. > >I believe this speaks for itself, > > Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server order. >but I'm curious to learn about other point of views. > > From simon@josefsson.org Tue Feb 1 13:29:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452BA3A6C84 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:29:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.969 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.969 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.370, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FDfrreVxA7yJ for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from yxa-v.extundo.com (yxa-v.extundo.com [213.115.69.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642A63A6C82 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (c80-216-4-108.bredband.comhem.se [80.216.4.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by yxa-v.extundo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p11LWq6e000714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Feb 2011 22:32:53 +0100 From: Simon Josefsson To: Alexey Melnikov References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt X-Hashcash: 1:22:110201:alexey.melnikov@isode.com::Dk1F5e6KEjuyWlKC:3vHE X-Hashcash: 1:22:110201:xmpp@ietf.org::P0GJ3dmWlcf16D31:E0by Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:32:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> (Alexey Melnikov's message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:27:35 +0300") Message-ID: <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at yxa-v X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:29:41 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: >>RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >> >> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >> >> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >> >> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility >> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" >> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >> >>I believe this speaks for itself, >> >> > Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server order. My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol designers the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. /Simon From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Tue Feb 1 13:53:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092CA3A6C7A for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:53:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VmKIIAepjF5m for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018E53A6C72 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.102] ((unknown) [109.73.6.25]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:57:08 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: NORDNS Message-ID: <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:56:22 +0300 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Simon Josefsson References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> In-Reply-To: <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:53:52 -0000 Simon Josefsson wrote: >Alexey Melnikov writes: > > >>>RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >>> >>> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >>> >>> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >>> >>> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >>> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility >>> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" >>> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >>> >>>I believe this speaks for itself, >>> >>> >>Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server order. >> >> > >My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol designers >the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. > > It does, but some people argue that considering that the client preferences always take precendence then a) server order is meaningless and b) it can encourage naive client implementation that would rely on it (which is an issue, because a man-in-the-middle attacker who can reorder mechanisms can trick clients into selecting something less secure). So there is a question of whether the server advertised order is actually harmful. From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Feb 1 17:58:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011663A6CAF for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:58:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.581 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.581 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GM0IiV4shj7f for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7023A6915 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (dsl-251-175.dynamic-dsl.frii.net [216.17.251.175]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 57B5E400F6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:18:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D48BB0D.1090502@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:01:49 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030603000603070305080908" Subject: Re: [xmpp] Agenda for the Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 01:58:36 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030603000603070305080908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 > On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >> -- Internationalization Issues: 120 minutes -- Peter >=20 > I've created slides for a tutorial on this topic, which I plan to > present on Friday at the "hackfest". I need to tweak the slides today > but will send them out before flying to Brussels tomorrow. Because I don't like to use email as a file transfer method, I've uploaded the slides here: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf The topic is complex, and folks could spend all their time between now and Monday reading the references I've provided at the end of the slide deck. Because I figure that very few people will do so, I've tried to make the slides somewhat self-contained with regard to the major issues. I intend to present these slides (or most of them) on Friday at the XMPP "hackfest". I'll also put together a smaller set of more focused slides for our decision-oriented discussion on Monday. 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From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Feb 1 17:59:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF663A6CAF for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:59:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r-I60QAVdRVx for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FA13A6915 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (dsl-251-175.dynamic-dsl.frii.net [216.17.251.175]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C5F7400F6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:19:18 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D48BB34.6080005@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:02:28 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020804010101030203070006" Subject: [xmpp] internationalization issues (was: Re: Agenda for the Interim Meeting) X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 01:59:12 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020804010101030203070006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 > On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >> -- Internationalization Issues: 120 minutes -- Peter >=20 > I've created slides for a tutorial on this topic, which I plan to > present on Friday at the "hackfest". I need to tweak the slides today > but will send them out before flying to Brussels tomorrow. Because I don't like to use email as a file transfer method, I've uploaded the slides here: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf The topic is complex, and folks could spend all their time between now and Monday reading the references I've provided at the end of the slide deck. Because I figure that very few people will do so, I've tried to make the slides somewhat self-contained with regard to the major issues. I intend to present these slides (or most of them) on Friday at the XMPP "hackfest". I'll also put together a smaller set of more focused slides for our decision-oriented discussion on Monday. Peter --=20 Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms020804010101030203070006 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIITzjCC BjQwggQcoAMCAQICASMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoT DVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNp Z25pbmcxKTAnBgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3 MTAyNDIxMDMzM1oXDTE3MTAyNDIxMDMzM1owgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1T dGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWdu aW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENs aWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBALmjSW4SPiDKlAinvVeL ZOVfItiuP1aRHL530E7QUc9icCwL33+PH+Js1HAh8CgWFl34sOxx1FJyS/C4VLPRsqDfP72j 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From waqas20@gmail.com Tue Feb 1 18:11:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A663B3A711A for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUljSsB64-TC for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com (mail-gw0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435FD3A6CB3 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so3197274gwb.31 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:14:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cOaHCsGWaIO3r1b6MdOhe6tJlfiIIrlaRWOjUvR0kv0=; b=B3WQocApxyFJb6lK5l57VKbCPzVhMFEChaBV7lSEJd6mSpWtma5FhAWbPgbCk7M/GL FOmrm8Ab8aEVWHA9MfobOn8a2LXJDnfbJJfzKk1TPa0Ic7k0AXM7+X3a5eA8uA4vnAMY 9q1YzGrUejcy+H6oyrVCL9m+XRYVTc3ILpMlM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lsMHWJC6QPAvGBSrcAavSIjEbsI54E/mz6myFdgt+xelpBcjeUFWOerGgO3D3EWChq wl970by4XpOO9VlwZWRo47UHMOvBo62yboqje1+WQy9c/F0/dnqwYoNioL5XCr+jxJuF HhJCZy1MwI4o4xm+180QTQF8UpstPXqygpu+g= Received: by 10.151.110.2 with SMTP id n2mr2331748ybm.429.1296612893280; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:14:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.100.17 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:14:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> From: Waqas Hussain Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:14:33 +0500 Message-ID: To: Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order (was: Re: Agenda for the Interim Meeting) X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 02:11:36 -0000 On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrot= e: > On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >>> -- SASL preference ordering: =A015 minutes -- Alexey and/or Peter >> >> Alexey, could you post to the list about that issue? > > I forgot that Alexey is offline most of this week, so I'll raise the issu= e. > > Section 6.3.3 of 3920bis states: > > =A0 Any entity that will act as a SASL client or a SASL server MUST > =A0 maintain an ordered list of its preferred SASL mechanisms according > =A0 to the client or server, where the list is ordered according to local > =A0 policy or user configuration (which SHOULD be in order of perceived > =A0 strength to enable the strongest authentication possible). =A0The > =A0 initiating entity MUST maintain its own preference order independent > =A0 of the preference order of the receiving entity. =A0A server MUST off= er > =A0 and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. =A0For > =A0 example, if the server offers the ordered list "PLAIN SCRAM-SHA-1 > =A0 GSSAPI" or "SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI PLAIN" but the client's ordered list > =A0 is "GSSAPI SCRAM-SHA-1", the client MUST try GSSAPI first and then > =A0 SCRAM-SHA-1 but MUST NOT try PLAIN (since PLAIN is not on its list). > > Therefore XMPP mandates the presentation order of SASL mechanisms by the > application server. However, no other application protocols that re-use > SASL (e.g., IMAP) mandate such a thing. > > Some people consider this a bug in XMPP (or so it seems -- I have not > been privy to their conversations, but I think they are on this list). > Others consider it a feature of XMPP, or an example of a protocol aspect > that XMPP specifies (because 3920bis is one of the most thorough > specifications in existence) despite the fact that other protocols do not= . > > I don't have strong feelings in the matter, and in any case I think the > server's preference order doesn't really matter because the client has > its own preference order, which it develops independently of the server. > > I'd appreciate it if those who consider this a bug could make their > voices heard on the list. > > Peter I didn't raise this issue, but here's how I see it: 1. Since the clients MUST use their own order, the server's ordering is pointless. The text basically tells the initiating entity to not use the receiving entity's ordering, and use it's own. 2. XMPP servers may not be able to order at all, if they use some external SASL provider (which can have SASL mechanisms the server doesn't understand). I realized that we don't order mechanisms when using Cyrus SASL+saslauthd (optional external SASL library and auth deamon) with Prosody, and don't understand some of the mechanisms supported by Cyrus. This mustn't be a MUST for the server :) -- Waqas Hussain From simon@josefsson.org Tue Feb 1 19:29:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14923A6F3A for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:29:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.962 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.363, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zxL6a4kJ1cU6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:29:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from yxa-v.extundo.com (yxa-v.extundo.com [213.115.69.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A8A3A6916 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (c80-216-4-108.bredband.comhem.se [80.216.4.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by yxa-v.extundo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p123WLQn018330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 2 Feb 2011 04:32:22 +0100 From: Simon Josefsson To: Alexey Melnikov References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt X-Hashcash: 1:22:110202:xmpp@ietf.org::zOTpn15IGOwlkeuL:Kg0w X-Hashcash: 1:22:110202:alexey.melnikov@isode.com::wxY8n/nHFo4U65O3:OQ5L Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 04:32:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> (Alexey Melnikov's message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:56:22 +0300") Message-ID: <87zkqf2jsr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at yxa-v X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 03:29:11 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: > Simon Josefsson wrote: > >>Alexey Melnikov writes: >> >> >>>>RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >>>> >>>> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >>>> >>>> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >>>> >>>> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >>>> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility >>>> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" >>>> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >>>> >>>>I believe this speaks for itself, >>>> >>>> >>>Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server order. >>> >>> >> >>My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol designers >>the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. >> >> > It does, but some people argue that considering that the client > preferences always take precendence then a) server order is > meaningless and b) it can encourage naive client implementation that > would rely on it (which is an issue, because a man-in-the-middle > attacker who can reorder mechanisms can trick clients into selecting > something less secure). So there is a question of whether the server > advertised order is actually harmful. Ah, I understand, and agree it could cause confusion although it seems like an implementation problem that would be easy to fix. I merely wanted to make it clear that this is not a "bug" from a SASL specification point of view. /Simon From Kurt.Zeilenga@Isode.COM Wed Feb 2 06:16:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A333A6CB7 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:16:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N4KuKxpKEP7p for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDCF3A6B20 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ((unknown) [62.3.217.253]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:20:04 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: NORDNS References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> Message-Id: <45726152-6B65-44EB-AF4D-59F2C459EFE8@Isode.COM> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8C148) From: Kurt Zeilenga Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:20:16 +0000 To: Peter Saint-Andre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: "xmpp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order (was: Re: Agenda for the Interim Meeting) X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:16:46 -0000 On Feb 1, 2011, at 8:31 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 2/1/11 8:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>=20 >> On 2/1/11 8:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >>> -- SASL preference ordering: 15 minutes -- Alexey and/or Peter >>=20 >> Alexey, could you post to the list about that issue? >=20 > I forgot that Alexey is offline most of this week, so I'll raise the issue= . >=20 > Section 6.3.3 of 3920bis states: >=20 > Any entity that will act as a SASL client or a SASL server MUST > maintain an ordered list of its preferred SASL mechanisms according > to the client or server, where the list is ordered according to local > policy or user configuration (which SHOULD be in order of perceived > strength to enable the strongest authentication possible). The > initiating entity MUST maintain its own preference order independent > of the preference order of the receiving entity. A server MUST offer > and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. For > example, if the server offers the ordered list "PLAIN SCRAM-SHA-1 > GSSAPI" or "SCRAM-SHA-1 GSSAPI PLAIN" but the client's ordered list > is "GSSAPI SCRAM-SHA-1", the client MUST try GSSAPI first and then > SCRAM-SHA-1 but MUST NOT try PLAIN (since PLAIN is not on its list). >=20 > Therefore XMPP mandates the presentation order of SASL mechanisms by the > application server. However, no other application protocols that re-use > SASL (e.g., IMAP) mandate such a thing. >=20 > Some people consider this a bug in XMPP (or so it seems -- I have not > been privy to their conversations, but I think they are on this list). > Others consider it a feature of XMPP, or an example of a protocol aspect > that XMPP specifies (because 3920bis is one of the most thorough > specifications in existence) despite the fact that other protocols do not.= I don't understand why server provided order would matter to a client. The c= lient must maintain it's own preference and use that in selecting the mechan= ism ( though the text is not clear that this is a must. s/a client MUST try= SASL mechanisms in preference order/a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in it= s preference order/ would seem appropriate). I don't understand how an implementation preference for which authentication= exchanges are used first can be reasonably expressed by a simple ordering o= f the mechanisms names. That is, if it my preference to have an exchange w= hich results in sufficient protections against hijack attack, how this can b= e expressed simply by just listing mechanisms which are capable of such resu= lting in those protections first. The client cannot be expected to be able t= o use all the capabilities of the mechanism, or to favor a particular select= ion of capabilities. That is, where a server which lists a or b because the= y think a will result in a "stronger" session, but a client more capable of e= stablishing "stronger" sessions with b than a, a weaker session results due t= o the suggestion that consider the server specified preference. I generally think the server MUST is not implementable in that I don't think= it possible to well order mechanisms by security strength. Can you order t= he mechanisms listed at http://www.iana.org/assignments/sasl-mechanisms/sasl= -mechanisms.xhtml by security strength? Would the order be different with o= r with TLS? Different depending on TLS cipher suite was in use? Different d= epending on which capabilities negotiated in the mechanism are assumed to be= used?=20 It's been suggested to me (off list) that the server list is for clients whi= ch don't have there own means for selecting one mech over another. I think= what this text is trying to do is turn what was designed an interop solutio= n into a security solution. Mech nego was designed to allow a client and t= he server to nego a mechanism which they both support and for which mets bot= h of their minimal security requirements. It was never designed to, and ev= en with the server preference order, won't result in the "strongest" exchang= e. -- Kurt Ps: i won't be able to respond much as I'm on the road. >=20 > I don't have strong feelings in the matter, and in any case I think the > server's preference order doesn't really matter because the client has > its own preference order, which it develops independently of the server. >=20 > I'd appreciate it if those who consider this a bug could make their > voices heard on the list. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp From Kurt.Zeilenga@Isode.COM Wed Feb 2 06:21:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BC63A6CED for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:21:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TeDp2Pw+UM-N for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03323A6CE0 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ((unknown) [62.3.217.253]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:24:35 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: NORDNS References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> Message-Id: <011EA5F8-3FDF-40F2-856A-3CFF749528BB@Isode.COM> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8C148) From: Kurt Zeilenga Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 14:24:49 +0000 To: Alexey Melnikov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: "xmpp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:21:18 -0000 On Feb 1, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrot= e: > Simon Josefsson wrote: >=20 >> Alexey Melnikov writes: >>=20 >>>> RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >>>>=20 >>>> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >>>>=20 >>>> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >>>>=20 >>>> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >>>> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility >>>> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best" >>>> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >>>>=20 >>>> I believe this speaks for itself, >>>> =20 >>> Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server order.= >>> =20 >>=20 >> My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol designers >> the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. >>=20 > It does, but some people argue that considering that the client preference= s always take precendence then a) server order is meaningless and b) it can e= ncourage naive client implementation that would rely on it (which is an issu= e, because a man-in-the-middle attacker who can reorder mechanisms can trick= clients into selecting something less secure). So there is a question of wh= ether the server advertised order is actually harmful. I think the question is more "how does a server provided mech name ordering b= y preference help the client select the mechanism best meeting the client's r= equirements?" >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Feb 2 07:09:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F823A6CDE for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2DSEPllOx0iL for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37433A6CDD for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from leavealone.cisco.com (72-163-0-129.cisco.com [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30A1E40393 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 08:29:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D49746E.7070800@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 08:12:46 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xmpp@ietf.org References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> <011EA5F8-3FDF-40F2-856A-3CFF749528BB@Isode.COM> In-Reply-To: <011EA5F8-3FDF-40F2-856A-3CFF749528BB@Isode.COM> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000409060609000303010206" Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 15:09:30 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000409060609000303010206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/2/11 7:24 AM, Kurt Zeilenga wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Feb 1, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >=20 >> Simon Josefsson wrote: >> >>> Alexey Melnikov writes: >>> >>>>> RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >>>>> >>>>> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >>>>> >>>>> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >>>>> >>>>> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >>>>> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some facility >>>>> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the "best= " >>>>> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >>>>> >>>>> I believe this speaks for itself, >>>>> =20 >>>> Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server or= der. >>>> =20 >>> >>> My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol designers= >>> the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. >>> >> It does, but some people argue that considering that the client prefer= ences always take precendence then a) server order is meaningless and b) = it can encourage naive client implementation that would rely on it (which= is an issue, because a man-in-the-middle attacker who can reorder mechan= isms can trick clients into selecting something less secure). So there is= a question of whether the server advertised order is actually harmful. >=20 > I think the question is more "how does a server provided mech name orde= ring by preference help the client select the mechanism best meeting the = client's requirements?" I think we've established that it doesn't. I suggest this... from: A server MUST offer and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. to: A client MUST try SASL mechanisms in its preference order. The rest of the paragraph can stay the same. 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From mamille2@cisco.com Wed Feb 2 07:12:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FF73A6CDE for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:12:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJ1Nimt17foC for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E268C3A6C98 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:12:35 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: smime.p7s : 2214 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAJIDSU2rR7Hu/2dsb2JhbAClGXOhBJsWhVMEhHiGaQ Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Feb 2011 15:14:19 +0000 Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-209.cisco.com (dhcp-64-101-72-209.cisco.com [64.101.72.209]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p12FEJHK018756; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 15:14:19 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-9-524880456; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Matt Miller In-Reply-To: <4D49746E.7070800@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 08:14:20 -0700 Message-Id: <2464E14A-EAD2-4DA3-BDE6-BF673043963A@cisco.com> References: <9AA2840B-F322-4303-9177-B9C49A9A0EF2@nostrum.com> <4D482525.6020105@stpeter.im> <4D486D8D.9020804@stpeter.im> <87vd135u0m.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D487AC7.4090105@isode.com> <87ei7r5tkr.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <4D488186.2020005@isode.com> <011EA5F8-3FDF-40F2-856A-3CFF749528BB@Isode.COM> <4D49746E.7070800@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] SASL preference order X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 15:12:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9-524880456 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 2, 2011, at 08:12 , Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 2/2/11 7:24 AM, Kurt Zeilenga wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 1, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >>=20 >>> Simon Josefsson wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Alexey Melnikov writes: >>>>=20 >>>>>> RFC 4422 may be useful to compare here, it says: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 3.2. Mechanism Negotiation >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mechanism negotiation is protocol specific. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Commonly, a protocol will specify that the server advertises >>>>>> supported and available mechanisms to the client via some = facility >>>>>> provided by the protocol, and the client will then select the = "best" >>>>>> mechanism from this list that it supports and finds suitable. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I believe this speaks for itself, >>>>>>=20 >>>>> Does it? The text you quoted doesn't prohibit or encourage server = order. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> My interpretation is that the first sentence gives protocol = designers >>>> the leeway to do what XMPP is doing here. >>>>=20 >>> It does, but some people argue that considering that the client = preferences always take precendence then a) server order is meaningless = and b) it can encourage naive client implementation that would rely on = it (which is an issue, because a man-in-the-middle attacker who can = reorder mechanisms can trick clients into selecting something less = secure). So there is a question of whether the server advertised order = is actually harmful. >>=20 >> I think the question is more "how does a server provided mech name = ordering by preference help the client select the mechanism best meeting = the client's requirements?" >=20 > I think we've established that it doesn't. >=20 > I suggest this... >=20 > from: >=20 > A server MUST offer > and a client MUST try SASL mechanisms in preference order. >=20 > to: >=20 > A client MUST try SASL mechanisms in its preference order. >=20 > The rest of the paragraph can stay the same. Sounds good to me. It's what I've done with all my client = implementations/deployments anyway. - m&m --Apple-Mail-9-524880456 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIFNTCCBTEw ggMZoAMCAQICAwmYMjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4wHAYDVQQL ExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmluZyBBdXRob3Jp dHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzAeFw0xMDEyMTQxNzQ3MTlaFw0x MjEyMTMxNzQ3MTlaMDwxFzAVBgNVBAMTDk1hdHRoZXcgTWlsbGVyMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJt YW1pbGxlMkBjaXNjby5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC7Sh5cQYtd /kfoG3KjXd8i2esxt+BtHCmuiSku2VECC6msLKzA08cGJ31GfyX7+996TV3D5omh51j5fznfFikk cVGsuKe+omo70Aidw48ISGygQk8ZJrU8JVVfTjKVJRX39wgj8w8CI/BCz4kXLirIBWKTv1ARuqsO 7I1aqT7pWHAwlAKIbYYEwfz46OjyzmqknglOecy/1PR09nXwAAIepSo0Jk9edqsU8Pdqsbx8cPUV jlFtVkk+58ORjefl+4BoGrzW24rGG2B04sNPrycNqZEaJLmdk5J9ie/FMV10H8wFW8syomuacPxv NhoUgNnkYsJiO7zJEKUUmbmW1GPFAgMBAAGjgf4wgfswDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADBWBglghkgBhvhC AQ0ESRZHVG8gZ2V0IHlvdXIgb3duIGNlcnRpZmljYXRlIGZvciBGUkVFIGhlYWQgb3ZlciB0byBo dHRwOi8vd3d3LkNBY2VydC5vcmcwQAYDVR0lBDkwNwYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCBgorBgEE AYI3CgMEBgorBgEEAYI3CgMDBglghkgBhvhCBAEwMgYIKwYBBQUHAQEEJjAkMCIGCCsGAQUFBzAB hhZodHRwOi8vb2NzcC5jYWNlcnQub3JnMB0GA1UdEQQWMBSBEm1hbWlsbGUyQGNpc2NvLmNvbTAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOCAgEAoa/WVlTWG/rbVIFlG1tCdJrbVvIWNfUNSgojunKsoaVGCoIh7T1+ SgWe8sV+r7s5bVlq66iGxTm/qoKMHM9i4aNGlwWDkXqLHoCKbY4qKPGKnn7PaoA6DWQ5u7ZKBkn9 N2fY8iLxiAy/hLnjtRLlbSr2yBX0DbO1K0ORLDwfO2MUf1j2Cou+qVvEmyEe7cUq37iOOsNbtghT xjn+RE7WJiHcR9deAkfI1xXi7UZcFME+k6nhdnX/qWFFLox0fJJCzX1H8DTzRIjA+ciNLWSG+TRx s7fAn+YZisJdkGxMcWlHZxSu+ybPjc9T7zCyf4+yFHigdOMNxiQ2k/E9WTJ84xIis2TG3E9Nba9B PMb6cgjiqGxiFpKKHj9/5A3wDIHZ8dof+M7YFGnHzwF9i72ZEoaO3hMEhAg9LhqGtQtEZohbTZL2 FOeT+8VjUHSOKhEYurQjWrHDj+ZyDjzhOE/KMwqSWokZhoy0s+VQ05BrVlbXd5DJaB/Hem0MdDUc /6IjqtI6f8O/HLQFAVUQgtW50bfCjDOAB/SaEKzygblcAHxSKDbduRQaRst6cIHEy4eQxvxrHIhg b2KWZ00jS+7NUnAMOyzIJTcZfV5mkCb8UjMHq9NSChwpBFuDzpXxjU20xJGDvbVWNDwfbITCczph p4uuhLITzvhHKaUNwxoqx0oxggMzMIIDLwIBATCBgDB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4wHAYD VQQLExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmluZyBBdXRo b3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZwIDCZgyMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCg ggGHMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTExMDIwMjE1MTQy MFowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFGcN9egHU9jCfGmcmmZjiQwTnNbrMIGRBgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxgYMw gYAweTEQMA4GA1UEChMHUm9vdCBDQTEeMBwGA1UECxMVaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYWNlcnQub3JnMSIw IAYDVQQDExlDQSBDZXJ0IFNpZ25pbmcgQXV0aG9yaXR5MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdXBwb3J0 QGNhY2VydC5vcmcCAwmYMjCBkwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgYOggYAweTEQMA4GA1UEChMHUm9vdCBD QTEeMBwGA1UECxMVaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYWNlcnQub3JnMSIwIAYDVQQDExlDQSBDZXJ0IFNpZ25p bmcgQXV0aG9yaXR5MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdXBwb3J0QGNhY2VydC5vcmcCAwmYMjANBgkq hkiG9w0BAQEFAASCAQARZjj2qp6ucXMUcJgR41cljy/WJZbEzePJuZpnLt+nP2yzzjqqf+KQakFa ymmQjBcBl6jVFqBGgVZGFLW7/wlQw/iD8wLDmQd8heuJeY5MX5hDSYn64OOTL90HeEk/9jSiim2I Z+lWdGRi08nl4v6DxVS07c4ASqnbHLU97n+vdOG5Qx3I7yaCpffrWqG/PAEBjWvB3rYdximlbUr7 woBr0Qn/5EzT43CyHFo9D7eopYWfTgjIm3whTZRlzYxcgsdVT8zNG4KzJXGPJgxYfxezv5F0u323 tjtZYOGEqJOL/M1PrYQm3+4HMfhK5HuxOblV3BPBw0qyXAfY1uKqT1p2AAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-9-524880456-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Sun Feb 6 08:33:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34C43A6950 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o818rMZC+bir for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 08:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD633A6930 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 08:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (172.30-78-194.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be [194.78.30.172]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 385E5400F6 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:50:19 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D4ECD3F.9090306@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 17:33:03 +0100 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XMPP X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020609010907060407010501" Subject: [xmpp] i18n slides for XMPP WG interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 16:33:08 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020609010907060407010501 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010701030309060501010802" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010701030309060501010802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my i18n slides for tomorrow's interim meeting. I might also create a few separate slides on other topics (SASL mechanism preference order, namespace prefixing) to summarize list discussion. /psa --------------010701030309060501010802 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="xmppwg-interim-i18n.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="xmppwg-interim-i18n.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMKJcTl8uXrp/Og0MTGCjQgMCBvYmoKPDwgL0xlbmd0aCA1IDAgUiAvRmlsdGVy IC9GbGF0ZURlY29kZSA+PgpzdHJlYW0KeAGNk1FL40AUhd/nV5zHBNr03kmayTyqa0VBqDTg gvgQ01Sy2Cw29aH7670zqbvT2hUTQuBy557v3Jy84g6vIGgCk85g8gKbBvfoMLnoGXUPRl9/ 7liBkpz8hdb1auV7+b/9ToiJkFqLQqR0ToGUdlLk775W4Ww55ctjGS3H86lFvcZ5iSIb6vLO TGJyMjI0NSjXmMw4EUcoVyq67rbNpqu27e+uemn/NEvcXP/oY5S/cFmK/Q8uPdWei7PTXMqt IfB8xJVaseC50nzgkrcuOMkzm+EAS5UrPCCax5A1RI3gYVG13XZ81i03MdhKMcYjypuB8FtK zDCFOvDuRH7ezueQmU7p/gp+Ge0at02zbbvnr1XUCT82MUQaLJCftGai4ww9bd4q8TFOCdEO ZhTDWhVJxphDQZ+8JN2HaHEhWzuK4QKTKwnhc38QRmVNgRRZBp66BK38Jzwqhgkml+Bgia6V 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KquAbtHwmdcW for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155E43A6B0A for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] ([212.224.144.23]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p16LYrLI022632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:35:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 22:35:19 +0100 Message-Id: <5DC12171-4D3B-4914-9D0E-4081A175ADD1@nostrum.com> To: XMPP Group Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 212.224.144.23 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Subject: [xmpp] [Summit] XMPP chat for interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 21:35:21 -0000 Hi, I''ve had a few people ask about an XMPP chat for the interim meeting = tomorrow. I think we can use the same conference we use for regularly = scheduled IETF meetings, which is: xmpp@jabber.ietf.org However, if you plan to follow the xmpp chat, please check this list for = any last minute changes. Thanks! Ben. _______________________________________________ Summit mailing list Event: http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10/ Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/summit Unsubscribe: Summit-unsubscribe@xmpp.org _______________________________________________ From Peter.SaintAndre@webex.com Sun Feb 6 15:17:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F8D3A6B0A for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybiNSiRNVLrX for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw2.webex.com (gw2.webex.com [64.68.122.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EDA9B3A6A3C for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.197]) by gw2.webex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:17:33 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:17:32 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [xmpp] [Summit] XMPP chat for interim meeting Thread-Index: AcvGRcVZwrGq2HY8TG2o6uZUDxPZCgAAYNQuAAMv+Nc= From: "Peter Saint Andre" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2011 23:17:33.0505 (UTC) FILETIME=[08A93310:01CBC654] Subject: [xmpp] Fw: [Summit] XMPP chat for interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 23:17:33 -0000 Resending to the list... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Saint Andre To: 'ben@nostrum.com' Sent: Sun Feb 06 13:46:16 2011 Subject: Re: [xmpp] [Summit] XMPP chat for interim meeting Yes, that's the right place. For general XMPP Summit topics we've been = using xmpp:summit@muc.xmpp.org so I suppose we'll use that for the = XSF-specific topics during the morning session, as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: xmpp-bounces@ietf.org To: XMPP Group Sent: Sun Feb 06 13:35:19 2011 Subject: [xmpp] [Summit] XMPP chat for interim meeting Hi, I''ve had a few people ask about an XMPP chat for the interim meeting = tomorrow. I think we can use the same conference we use for regularly = scheduled IETF meetings, which is: xmpp@jabber.ietf.org However, if you plan to follow the xmpp chat, please check this list for = any last minute changes. Thanks! Ben. _______________________________________________ Summit mailing list Event: http://xmpp.org/participate/the-xmpp-summit/xmpp-summit-10/ Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/summit Unsubscribe: Summit-unsubscribe@xmpp.org _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ xmpp mailing list xmpp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp From stpeter@stpeter.im Sun Feb 6 16:08:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4463A6A3C for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:08:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ueGW7ZnuhnD for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F213A6A3A for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (172.30-78-194.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be [194.78.30.172]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 420FF400F6 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:26:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D4F3812.4020404@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 01:08:50 +0100 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XMPP X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060907050602060309090606" Subject: [xmpp] 3920bis slides for XMPP WG interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 00:08:54 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060907050602060309090606 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070505010607070707040205" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070505010607070707040205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my 3920bis slides for the interim meeting later today. Peter --=20 Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------070505010607070707040205 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="xmppwg-interim-3920bisfixes.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="xmppwg-interim-3920bisfixes.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMKJcTl8uXrp/Og0MTGCjQgMCBvYmoKPDwgL0xlbmd0aCA1IDAgUiAvRmlsdGVy IC9GbGF0ZURlY29kZSA+PgpzdHJlYW0KeAGNk1tLw0AQhd/3V5zHFNp0ZnPbfVSxolCoNFBB fKgxlQiNtKmg/97ZJOr2opgQFpbZOd+ZPdngFhsQNIFJx8hSg22JBWqMLxpG0YDRFMcVK1CY UvugcrVatbX8a70TYiJE1sKIlE7Jk9JOitq3KZTfW0612yNpLcfTxKJY4zyHibt9WdkkIbFN oKMM+RrjCYfiCPlK3SOIrKbHqsGkeh9AWwRlM8AD8htc5uL/C0wnugXj+DSYcnPwTB+AiUoP FqUdmKzacJjGNsYel8pXEK6Z0MRCsyu3mC+rejc6q5+2A7BD9An/pcSMzKg9807kbjqbQXo6 pcUVrmtRq9aYluWuqp//VlHdoPf82DAj0mCBPNKaiI4z9Lh9W4qPUUQIPpANB7BWBRIyZl+w jV4Y9SmaX8jUDnI4x/hKUvjc7KVR2cwgQiz3nrgIrdorPNj0I0wuwt4QXSkbuS0lMWLdx0sj cr46W7rPDwJBzl9+knIKCHJUWKx86pvnZ8+LeftHHeKIqoNxmaaQyHQDUXnhsyUn0Kav9dPy Y4hJN3E36n7IQkyQBl3APwF2rd4eCmVuZHN0cmVhbQplbmRvYmoKNSAwIG9iago0MjkKZW5k 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neH5yu-UAuop for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 03:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw2.webex.com (gw2.webex.com [64.68.122.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EEA6A3A6C80 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 03:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.197]) by gw2.webex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 7 Feb 2011 03:43:30 -0800 Received: from 66.114.169.7 ([66.114.169.7]) by SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.200]) via Exchange Front-End Server mailus.webex.com ([66.114.175.11]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:43:28 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.24.0.100205 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:43:30 +0100 From: Joe Hildebrand To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: WebEx for interim meeting Thread-Index: AcvGvD2csK3C6eVeq0a7ZzwkWvwp5A== IM-ID: xmpp:jhildebr@cisco.com Presence-ID: xmpp:jhildebr@cisco.com Jabber-ID: jhildebr@cisco.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2011 11:43:30.0961 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E2F0010:01CBC6BC] Subject: [xmpp] WebEx for interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:43:28 -0000 The audio is going to be *bad*, but you'll at least be able to see the slides. http://goo.gl/13yIO (or: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=138622947&PW=252d4c055518161602 22&RT=MiMyMg%3D%3D) -- Joe Hildebrand From Tory.Patnoe@webex.com Mon Feb 7 10:31:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94763A6E7B for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 10:31:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.135 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.135 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OIWUm3HkKFMX for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw1.webex.com (gw1.webex.com [64.68.122.208]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BF2A3A6C87 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 10:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.197]) by gw1.webex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 7 Feb 2011 10:30:59 -0800 Received: from 66.114.169.7 ([66.114.169.7]) by SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.200]) via Exchange Front-End Server mailus.webex.com ([66.114.175.12]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 18:30:58 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.28.0.101117 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:30:57 -0700 From: Tory Patnoe To: Michael Lundberg , XMPP Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 Thread-Index: Acu9ZGVmt68N1v6nQ26q3xfRaVYi3AJkMPAL In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3379923059_2258723" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2011 18:30:59.0111 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A6AA370:01CBC6F5] Subject: Re: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:31:01 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3379923059_2258723 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I=B9d also like to see an Option 3. 3. Clarify the subscription model between XMPP and SIP. This is addressed in section 2.3.2 but I believe needs some clarification. 2.3.2 talks about the subscription-state: terminated; reason=3Dtimeout but doesn=B9t deal with other SIP reasons and how they should be turned into XMPP presence. -- Tory On 2011-1-26 7:21 AM, "Michael Lundberg" wrote: > Hi All, >=20 > I am interested in renewing discussion on > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 and > the corresponding SIP-XMPP interworking I-Ds. >=20 > After reading through the documentation, it's my understanding there > are two ways presence information can be mapped between these two > protocols. >=20 > 1. For each RFC that extends PIDF to support additional presence > values/information, a corresponding RFC to extend XMPP is required > (and vise versa). Then develop a RFC that describes the mapping > between the two protocols for the presence info. >=20 > 2. Encapsulate PIDF, and any corresponding extensions to PIDF, in XMPP >=20 > Option 1 requires a lot more standards development, since for each > extension, 3 RFCs need to be developed. However, this option provides > the best way to convey the same presence information across both > protocols. >=20 > Option 2 only requires a single SIP-XMPP presence "mapping" RFC. Any > extension to PIDF will automatically be encapsulated in XMPP presence > stanzas. However, this is only a one-way mapping. Rich presence > information conveyed in XMPP cannot be translated to SIP, without the > development of a separate RFC. This option also requires the XMPP end > host to be able to understand the PIDF file. Although protocol > mapping (i.e., PIDF encapsulation) occurs at the gateway (located at a > client, xmpp server, or separate gateway device), the XMPP end host > must be able to understand the encapsulated PIDF information if it is > being used to carry the presence info. >=20 > The current SIP-XMPP Interworking: Presence I-D does not seem to take > a firm stance on either of the above options. >=20 > For Option 1, there is no mapping between the XMPP values and a > child within the PIDF . In RFC3922, the > urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:pidf:im namesapace was used to map this > information. Although, that namespace does not seem appropriate, > because the presence info could be from any type of service/device, > not just IM; however, a similar mapping seems like it could be > defined. I=B9m also not sure why the current mapping is a SHOULD and > not a MUST in the document. >=20 > For Option 2, the encapsulation of the PIDF information is described > as a RECOMMENDATION. It seems as though if the purpose of the draft > is to promote interoperability between the two protocols, then > stricter wording is required to support one of the two Options, as > this will impact future draft development. >=20 > Please let me know if I am missing something, as I was not involved in > the original discussions surrounding the development of this I-D. I > think this is good work that needs to continue in order to promote > interworking between these two protocols. >=20 > Thanks, > Michael > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp >=20 --B_3379923059_2258723 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 I’d also like to see an Option 3.

3. Clarify the subscription model between XMPP and SIP.

This is addressed in section 2.3.2 but I believe needs some clarification.<= BR>
2.3.2 talks about the subscription-state: terminated; reason=3Dtimeout but do= esn’t deal with other SIP reasons and how they should be turned into X= MPP presence.

-- Tory


On 2011-1-26 7:21 AM, "Michael Lundberg" <michaellundberg.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi All,

I am interested in renewing discussion on
= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 and
the corresponding SIP-XMPP interworking I-Ds.

After reading through the documentation, it's my understanding there
are two ways presence information can be mapped between these two
protocols.

1. For each RFC that extends PIDF to support additional presence
values/information, a corresponding RFC to extend XMPP is required
(and vise versa).  Then develop a RFC that describes the mapping
between the two protocols for the presence info.

2. Encapsulate PIDF, and any corresponding extensions to PIDF, in XMPP

Option 1 requires a lot more standards development, since for each
extension, 3 RFCs need to be developed.  However, this option provides=
the best way to convey the same presence information across both
protocols.

Option 2 only requires a single SIP-XMPP presence "mapping" RFC. = Any
extension to PIDF will automatically be encapsulated in XMPP presence
stanzas.  However, this is only a one-way mapping.  Rich presence=
information conveyed in XMPP cannot be translated to SIP, without the
development of a separate RFC.  This option also requires the XMPP end=
host to be able to understand the PIDF file.  Although protocol
mapping (i.e., PIDF encapsulation) occurs at the gateway (located at a
client, xmpp server, or separate gateway device), the XMPP end host
must be able to understand the encapsulated PIDF information if it is
being used to carry the presence info.

The current SIP-XMPP Interworking: Presence I-D does not seem to take
a firm stance on either of the above options.

For Option 1, there is no mapping between the XMPP <show> values and = a
child within the PIDF <status>.  In RFC3922, the
urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:pidf:im namesapace was used to map this
information.  Although, that namespace does not seem appropriate,
because the presence info could be from any type of service/device,
not just IM; however, a similar mapping seems like it could be
defined.  I’m also not sure why the current mapping is a SHOULD = and
not a MUST in the document.

For Option 2, the encapsulation of the PIDF information is described
as a RECOMMENDATION.  It seems as though if the purpose of the draft is to promote interoperability between the two protocols, then
stricter wording is required to support one of the two Options, as
this will impact future draft development.

Please let me know if I am missing something, as I was not involved in
the original discussions surrounding the development of this I-D. I
think this is good work that needs to continue in order to promote
interworking between these two protocols.

Thanks,
Michael
_______________________________________________
xmpp mailing list
xmpp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/xmpp

--B_3379923059_2258723-- From Peter.SaintAndre@webex.com Mon Feb 7 11:32:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656E83A6E5E for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:32:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BAD_LINEBREAK=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDI4Dc09eBNK for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw2.webex.com (gw2.webex.com [64.68.122.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B3D9A3A6D40 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.197]) by gw2.webex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:32:40 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBC6FD.C8366793" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:32:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 Thread-Index: Acu9ZGVmt68N1v6nQ26q3xfRaVYi3AJkMPALAAInzNs= From: "Peter Saint Andre" To: "Tory Patnoe" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2011 19:32:40.0298 (UTC) FILETIME=[C87EF4A0:01CBC6FD] Subject: Re: [xmpp] draft-saintandre-sip-xmpp-presence-02 X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 19:32:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBC6FD.C8366793 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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939123A6E6D for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:16:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XN2lEitdjy9b for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9E13A6FAE for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (172.30-78-194.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be [194.78.30.172]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1AA97400F6; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 15:33:32 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D506F25.500@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 23:16:05 +0100 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Hildebrand , Ben Campbell , XMPP References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000000050408020203010803" Subject: Re: [xmpp] WebEx for interim meeting X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 22:16:14 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000000050408020203010803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/7/11 12:43 PM, Joe Hildebrand wrote: > The audio is going to be *bad*, but you'll at least be able to see the > slides. >=20 > http://goo.gl/13yIO >=20 > (or:=20 > https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=3DWMI&EventID=3D138622947&PW=3D252d4c0= 55518161602 > 22&RT=3DMiMyMg%3D%3D) >=20 Richard Barnes and Jonathan Schleifer (and a few others) took some notes at http://typewith.me/oVoICs8hD5 Here is a raw paste... ### XMPP Interim meeting: 7 February 2011 Notetakers: Richard Barnes and Jonathan Schleifer Jabber scribe: Dave Cridland Chairs introduction -- Note well -- Agenda review -- Hildebrand: Want to discuss whether to have an XMPP meeting at IETF 80 -- Document status -- Trilogy in the RFC editor queue (-3920bis, -3921bis, -address) -- Dependency on tls-server-id, but it's basically approved -- Ben: Need to move energy from the trilogy to new milestones -- Agenda bash: 3920bis moving forward in agenda Peter St-Andr=C3=A9: 3920bis Fixes -- People have found two minor changes for AUTH48 1. SASL mechanism order (3920bis, Section 6.3.3 see slide 4 for detail) - slide 5 outlines two problems 2. Namespace Prefix Enforcement (3920bis, Section 4.8.5 see slide 8 for detail) - slide 9 outlines that some servers are not knowingly violating it and it also may violate Postel's law (Referencing Mail http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xmpp/current/msg02367.html ) - Proposal to require servers not to send on broken data Q: Ralph: Some server impl don't do namespace checking so it may not do namespace check correct A: Trying to do the least intrusive thing (it's either do that (that =3D=3D= change MUST NOT to SHOULD) or submit an Errata about change) -- General agreement that these changes are OK Peter St-Andr=C3=A9: Internationalized JIDs -- Peter is doing a recap of basic Unicode facts from his previous talk -- Q: Ralph: Does the decomposition change the order of the combining characters -- A: Yes. It arranges them in a canonical order. -- Alexei: It always returns the same results -- Overview of the goals of the PRECIS working group -- Q: Ralph: Is PRECIS also looking at confusable characters? -- Stpeter: Don't know. Maybe -- Hildjj: Think a lot of people expected stringprep to deal with confusables, but it doesn't -- Hildjj: Not enough information in Unicode tables to deal with confusability, need to do something else -- Ben: Remember that these WGs are open, so you can participate -- Stpeter: There's also the font question which the XMPP level ignor= es -- Richard Barnes: Suggestion that you talk to some of the TLD registries (like .ee, .de, .ae, .=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD, .=D1=80=D1=84) for t= ips on confusables -- Localpart vs. Resource part - do we continue to use/treat localparts and resourceparts differently? -- Ralph: Concerned about MUC handles -- Matthew: At least in MUC nicknames, it's nice to have spaces -- Ralph: MUC could also change to handle nicks differently -- Remco: Maybe the problem is that MUC shows the resource to the user; handle it properly -- Hildjj (as floor participant): If we disallow interesting things in nicks, people will escape them -> gets ugly -- stpeter: PRECIS will probably have something like a free-form string class, should probably use that for some cases -- Cridland: Would be disastrous to try to re-write large parts of MU= C -- hildjj: We're at least going to have to change away from stringpre= p -> Not saying that we might as well change MUC while we're at it -- stpeter: IDN has the idea of "domain slots"; xmpp has "jid slots" and "localpart slots", etc. -- Cridland: Don't want to revisit things like spaces in localparts -- Nathan: Why do we have to decompose/do anything with resource parts? Very session-based, not manually entered, not really being matche= d -- Stpeter: You get that from the "free form text" PRECIS profile so comparisons work -- Cridland: Our implementation doesn't implement resourceprep, never had a problem because of it -- Ralph: We store nicks, you can register them; if you don't normalize, then you could have visually identical, canonically identical nicks in the same room -- Cridland: Probably make a distinction between nicks in chat rooms and resource paths in general -- stpeter: Might define different normalizations depending on usage -- Normalization forms: Is NFKC too smart? Can we get by with NFD/NFKD -- hildjj: One of the reasons for the *C forms in stringprep was that font renderers back then weren't smart enough to handle combining characters; now they are. So using *D forms might make sense now, with CPU/complexity savings -- Miller: For length limits, could *C could be better than *D; # of code points closer to # of glyphs -- Per Gustafson: If you have a really large set of rosters, and you're going to rewrite a lot of things, could be a lot of difference between these; could be good to get some data -- Ralph: If there's a possibility that we're going to use NFD, do we want to look at mapping characters as well? -- stpeter: What do you mean by mapping? -- Ralph: e.g., case folding -- hildjj: Would oppose to requiring people to store strings as entered (not canonical) -- Melnikov: There are some pathological test cases -- Ralph: What does IDNA2008 use? -- Stpeter: They didn't choose, but they disallowed compatibly-decomposable characters - Character mapping: Case mapping, width of asian characterers -- hildjj (as chair): Does anyone have an opinion about things like ROMAN NUMERAL 4 (IV) -- Ralph: Uncomfortable with losing information -- Zeilinga: We shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate weird things, focus on important stuff like peoples' names -- Ralph notes roman numbers are actually parts of names -- Joe (floor): From the Unicode perspective, only the semantics are different -- Ralph notes that characters like quotes are actually handled content-sensitive in applications -- Joe: Do we want to just forbid half-width characters? -- Joe: Need to also give due consideration to non-English speakers -- Ali Sabil: NFKC seems like the safest option -- NFKC doesn't change scripts to where it becomes unreadable -- Nubuo Ogashiva: In Japan they don't care about issues like 1 vs l -- stpeter: 2 ways to do things: Either map or just disallow (like ID= NA) -- Kurt: Don't necessarily think that special things should be disallowed, more an issue of focus -- Locale-specific issues; maybe limit things by geographic scope? -- Registrar-like policies, especially around mixed scripts? -- Joe: Concerned about restrictions, since we run a global service -- Richard: More of an operational/best-practices issue than a protocol/processing issue -- So software should handle everything, but your service can put constraints -- Joe issues that the rules that apply for domains might not work for users if they are just copied -- Ralph: Any informational stuff on this out of IDNA? Do we want to define such documents? -- Joe (chair): We need to at least try to show some work in PRECIS -- stpeter: Prohibit mixed scripts? Encourage clients to warn about them? -- Jonathan Schleifer: We can't fix it, as we even have that problem with domains and we can't just forbid domains -- Need to identify all the "JID slots", maybe node IDs as well -- Enforcement & Error Handling: Where should enforcement happen? -- Migration: How do we transition to the new handling techniques? -- How many people are using non-ASCII characters now? -- Overlap with the general question of how mismatches are handled -- Procedural: How do we interact with PRECIS, SASL, etc.? -- Ben (floor): Don't focus on which WGs are doing the work, best to reuse stuff -- Alexei: Second Ben's comment; doesn't make sense for each application to do this stuff independently -- Cridland: How much global coordination do we need? Maybe just have some very light coordination on normalization? -- Ben (chair): Clear indication from IESG that they want this to be a priority -- Ralph: With IDNA2008, won't we already have problems with the domain part of JIDs? -- Peter, Alexei, Ralph, Joe: Do we need an official statement that domains not conforming to stringprep won't work with XMPP? -- Richard Barnes: XMPP DNA: What's the problem, does DNSSEC help, if not: Alternatives? -- Hosting providers can't hold customer certs for security reasons -- Two differnet channels for each src-dst pair =E2=86=92 too many socket= s -- Requirements: Need a way to verify that the server actually sent the SRV and not some attacker. A way to sign a redirection -- DNSSEC signs responses, signed SRVs -- if (dnssec && dnsName =3D=3D dstName) =E2=86=92 success -- Joe (floor): We might still want some of the structure from the original DNA -- Dave Cridland: Fully compatible with Dailback -- DNSSEC usage still low -- Jonathan Schleifer: DNSSEC might be easier to break than TLS, this approach then makes it possible to completely circumvent TLS -- Joe (floor): DNSSEC will be used a lot, so we are having other problems if it's broken -- Richard references draft-barnes-xmpp-dna (non-DNSSEC solutions) -- how do you encode the delegation? -- how do you *find* the delegation? -- how do you trust the signing key? -- Dave Cridland: SRV, or CNAME? (Specifically, using a CNAME in response to a SRV request to indicate a delegation) -- Joe (Floor): Not clear at which name to look when using CNAME -- Ralph: If a CNAME is used, no SRV is checked for the new destination -- Florian Jensen: SRV can point to a domain that is a CNAME - shouldn't make a difference? -- Jonathan Schleifer: Just use HTTPS to do redirection and handle it like the user entered the domain from the redirect? -- Ralph: Nobody besides XMPP is using something similar -- Joe (chair): DNSSEC+DNA might be a way to go End of meeting. -------------------------- Here's the stuff I wrote before: MINUTES Issue #1: SASL Mechanism Order Peter Saint-Andre explains that no other protocol specifies order of SASL mechanisms, client ignores the server's preference order. Proposes to change "A server MUST offer and a client MUST try SASL" to "A client MUST try SASL". Joe Hildebrand asks whether someone has objections against this change. No objections. Issue #2: Namespace Prefix Enforcement Peter Saint-Andre explains that fact that a server MUST NOT route a stanza with a prefix for the default namespace might causes problems with servers not really knowing about it because their parser hides it. Proposes to change it to SHOULD NOT route it without first correcting the error, but instead SHOULD either ignore it or close the stream with a stream error. Joe Hildebrand asks whether someone has objections against this change. No objections, most in agreement. Issue #3: Internationalization Peter Saint-Andre gives a short overview of how Unicode works and explains why the order of combining characters is important. Ralph Meyer asks whether normalization puts the combining characters in the right order. Joe Hildebrand, Alexey and Peter Saint-Andre say yes. Peter Saint-Andre goes on to explain that IDNA2008 moved away from stringprep for domain names, but PRECIS provides similar "services", mapping rules probably included. Ralph asks if the PRECIS group will deal with confusable characters, Peter Saint-Andre he's not quite sure whether they're going to do it, suggest we need to do a lot ourselves. Joe notes that back when stringprep was introduced it did not handle confusable characters and it has caused a lot of issues, but there's not enough information in the Unicode tables to deal with confusable characte= rs. Ben encourages everybody to join the mailing list and help working on PRECIS. Richard Barnes suggests the WG contacts the TLD registries for confusable characters. Peter asks whether we want to continue the localpart and the resourcepart differently. Ralph wants to raise that we would be loosing functionality if not. Matthew Wild notes we would not want spaces in the localpart, but in the resourcepart. Remko Troncon notes that we only actually show the resource to the user in MUC and that we should maybe just have another way for the nicks in MUCS. Joe notes as an individual people would probably just start escaping things. Peter notes that people like the expressiveness and that he doesn't see a reason to get rid of that. Dave Cridland notes that it's questionable whether MUC will change how nicknames work. Joe (as individual) notes that all the code handling JID matching etc. needs to be changed anyway once we got rid of stringprep. David thinks we need to try to maintain as much compatibility with stringprep as possible and that we don't have the option anymore for drastic changes. Ralph notes that we are going to face issue because of new Unicode characters being added. Peter agrees that big changes to localpart should not be done. Nathan Fritz asks why we decompose resource parts. Peter replies that you want decomposition for stuff like kicking the right person from the MUC. Dave says they never did resourceprep, but it never caused them any trouble. Ralph notes that MUC nicks can be registered and stored and thus normalization is required. Dave suggest making a differentiation between nicknames in chatrooms and resources, as we have problems in chatrooms which we don't have in resources. Peter summarizes that we should do some addition checking for resource parts in MUC. Peter asks if we really need recomposition, as font renderers are smart. Joe notes that font renderers did not produce the same characters back then when they composed, but do nowadays. Matt Miller asks about limitations when we have to know so many characters. Jonathan Schleifer that many characters are not affected by this and a sparse array can be used, thus not being a technical limitation. Peter sees changing from NFKC to NFD mostly as a migration problem. Per Gustafsson proposes to look at existing data for that. Ralph asks whether we want to do mapping characters as well. Joe (individual) rephrases it to "store everything in the unmodified format" and opposes to it. Joe mentions some weird corner cases, Alexey suggests to document those. Ralph asks which choice IDNA2008 made. Peter says declines to make a choice. Alexey says they kind of did NFKC. Peter expains they filter by Unicode attributes. Peter asks if we want case folding for username, but not for free-form strings. Peter does not really see a reason to change this. Joe explains full-width, half-width and narrow-width characters of East Asian characters. Ralph is uncomfortable with losing information. 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From bernard.aboba@gmail.com Tue Feb 8 05:57:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095DF3A6DD1 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 05:57:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yp7eZwMDtL8o for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 05:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFCD3A68C0 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 05:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so6095666wyf.31 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 05:57:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=BHCPrmcHOOTNLI+zMEgTBp/j/iPtna4xAPza6vx8e9Y=; b=IcFtY/o9t3QGQ1MPr6se3ZVr4wBqd8ZEP6MKRPsGJsXrRPGCSorbtbhloUjThSCjUN 8SAj2EyQ7Cnfyabs7+w++tqhl+sPxicOu8x2zF3kqmjSYH6gPIMOsZyuJtr56fQ1wzL3 ES8ay+oCqCSrFegG9FDp5XdshgfCCdy8nvZTA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=CNwDSNnqDHZRiXvyOQDSYVZ0Ty2d1qBgvyY8OKm/bOG6YQtSGne506uavZC3V8+QA4 GvgK2pd8QC8+t1yO5U4TdyRSM6DdiB9mi9IWZvI8606Y9N1Fwr7VQ/L5rDuIVgZHRWR9 U2s/NkBz8PM7AiaPjh/WfIlXfmi/rIlxUkYm8= Received: by 10.216.182.71 with SMTP id n49mr8489775wem.105.1297173454762; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 05:57:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.27.144 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 05:57:14 -0800 (PST) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:57:14 -0600 Message-ID: To: xmpp@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6498436fbb42c049bc5bab0 Subject: [xmpp] XMPP support for emergency services... X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:57:30 -0000 --0016e6498436fbb42c049bc5bab0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Recently, the issue of XMPP support for emergency services has come up in a number of documents. For example, in ECRIT WG, the phonebcp document (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp ) only mentions SIMPLE with respect to IM support (see Section 14, ED-75), and Gunnar has raised the question whether XMPP should also be included (see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ecrit/current/msg07424.html). Similarly, the NENA document "Uses Cases and Suggested Requirements for Non-Voice-Centric Emergency Services" (see http://www.nena.org/information/joint/NG_Non-Voice_CentricEmergSvcs ) states on page 13: "Support of Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) [RFC3920, RFC3921] and SIP SIMPLE (pager mode) [RFC3428] should be considered as a future study item." Now saying nothing is not necessarily a bad state if there is nothing to say. On the other hand, maintaining silence on the subject makes it more likely that that questions will persist until we have documentation either explaining how it is done, or explaining that it is not supported (and perhaps why). I realize that this WG probably has another (tastier) fishes to fry, but this particular fish is out in the sun, and it seems to me that it would be best to either refrigerate it, or toss it in the disposal. --0016e6498436fbb42c049bc5bab0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recently, the issue of XMPP support for emergency services has come up in a= number of documents.=A0=A0 For example, in ECRIT WG, the phonebcp document= (see http= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp ) only mentions SIMPLE= with respect to IM support (see Section 14, ED-75), and Gunnar has raised = the question whether XMPP should also be included (see=A0 http://www.ietf= .org/mail-archive/web/ecrit/current/msg07424.html).

Similarly, the NENA document "Uses Cases and Suggested Requirement= s for Non-Voice-Centric Emergency Services" (see http://www.nena.= org/information/joint/NG_Non-Voice_CentricEmergSvcs ) states on page 13= :=A0 "Support of Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) [RF= C3920,
RFC3921] and SIP SIMPLE (pager mode) [RFC3428] should be considered as a fu= ture study item."

Now saying nothing is not necessarily a bad s= tate if there is nothing to say.=A0=A0 On the other hand, maintaining silen= ce on the subject makes it more likely that that questions will persist unt= il we have documentation either explaining how it is done, or explaining th= at it is not supported (and perhaps why).=A0

I realize that this WG probably has another (tastier) fishes to fry, bu= t this particular fish is out in the sun, and it seems to me that it would = be best to either refrigerate it, or toss it in the disposal.
--0016e6498436fbb42c049bc5bab0-- From admin@flosoft.biz Tue Feb 8 07:10:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409683A67AE for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PlpAVUpCe0CM for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from core1.flosoft-servers.net (core1.flosoft-servers.net [188.165.198.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BCF3A6774 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from core1.flosoft-servers.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by core1.flosoft-servers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC4E11E003 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:11:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.219.74.117] (unknown [134.219.74.117]) by core1.flosoft-servers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:11:19 +0100 (CET) From: Florian Jensen Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-1043063617; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:10:43 +0000 Message-Id: To: xmpp@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Subject: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:10:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3-1043063617 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, as we talked about SRV records on monday, I quickly checked what is = actually allowed to do with them. I may have said that SRV records are allowed to point to CNAME's which = is NOT true. SRV records, just like MX records, have to point to a A or AAAA record. Greets, Florian Jensen= --Apple-Mail-3-1043063617 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIO6jCCBwAw ggXooAMCAQICAggPMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGMMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEWMBQGA1UEChMNU3Rh cnRDb20gTHRkLjErMCkGA1UECxMiU2VjdXJlIERpZ2l0YWwgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2lnbmluZzE4 MDYGA1UEAxMvU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMiBQcmltYXJ5IEludGVybWVkaWF0ZSBDbGllbnQgQ0Ew HhcNMTAwNTE2MTE1MzI5WhcNMTIwNTE2MTUxODU0WjCBzjEgMB4GA1UEDRMXMTk2NTcyLTd0ejdl UkRpbk56MEZDUDcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkJFMRcwFQYDVQQIEw5WbGFhbXMtQnJhYmFudDESMBAGA1UE BxMJSG9laWxhYXJ0MS0wKwYDVQQLEyRTdGFydENvbSBWZXJpZmllZCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBNZW1i ZXIxFzAVBgNVBAMTDkZsb3JpYW4gSmVuc2VuMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlmbG9yaWFuQGZsb3Jp YW5qZW5zZW4uY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAv3aJrs/hdz+uMZ9t 4sGTWq9ETMwDZOB6uFHoOlO7f0VolApX+iuWPv1BQCLNEQkweU7EaFyPukoD/s4JXcriZJpz+AqY 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IjkL0l5HFzlK for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D643A677C for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3888111680BB; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:21:47 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmQ-58mcbDuX; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:21:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from Sputnik (unknown [62.3.217.253]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7D6AC11680BA; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:21:44 +0000 (GMT) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2609.1297178504.401961@Sputnik> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:21:44 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Florian Jensen , XMPP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:21:43 -0000 On Tue Feb 8 15:10:43 2011, Florian Jensen wrote: > as we talked about SRV records on monday, I quickly checked what is > actually allowed to do with them. > I may have said that SRV records are allowed to point to CNAME's > which is NOT true. > > SRV records, just like MX records, have to point to a A or AAAA > record. Right. I was suggesting: _xmpp-server._tcp.enterprise.example CNAME _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example ;; Enterprise.example's XMPP S2S service is delegated to ISP.example _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example SRV ... I suspect that this is: a) More useful to the Enterprise.example administrators. b) More practical for us to handle, as then one RR - the CNAME - acts as a single delegation record. However, Kurt seemed to suggest we should, instead do something more explicit - I suggest something like: _xmpp-server._delegate.enterprise.example CNAME isp.example ... may be more useful. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From Tory.Patnoe@webex.com Tue Feb 8 08:32:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29E33A67BD for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISKDTqWxlfgD for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw2.webex.com (gw2.webex.com [64.68.122.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A00B3A67B8 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.197]) by gw2.webex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:32:12 -0800 Received: from 66.114.169.7 ([66.114.169.7]) by SRV-EXSC03.webex.local ([192.168.252.200]) via Exchange Front-End Server mailus.webex.com ([66.114.175.11]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:32:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.28.0.101117 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:32:08 -0700 From: Tory Patnoe To: Dave Cridland , Florian Jensen , XMPP Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records Thread-Index: AcvHrbpbf5ldgM9XzEm1l9LreMs73Q== In-Reply-To: <2609.1297178504.401961@Sputnik> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2011 16:32:12.0958 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD4FBBE0:01CBC7AD] Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:32:07 -0000 In practice SRV records pointing to a CNAME is not rare at all. -- Tory On 2011-2-8 8:21 AM, "Dave Cridland" wrote: > On Tue Feb 8 15:10:43 2011, Florian Jensen wrote: >> as we talked about SRV records on monday, I quickly checked what is >> actually allowed to do with them. >> I may have said that SRV records are allowed to point to CNAME's >> which is NOT true. >> >> SRV records, just like MX records, have to point to a A or AAAA >> record. > > Right. I was suggesting: > > _xmpp-server._tcp.enterprise.example CNAME > _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example > ;; Enterprise.example's XMPP S2S service is delegated to ISP.example > > _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example SRV ... > > I suspect that this is: > > a) More useful to the Enterprise.example administrators. > > b) More practical for us to handle, as then one RR - the CNAME - acts > as a single delegation record. > > However, Kurt seemed to suggest we should, instead do something more > explicit - I suggest something like: > > _xmpp-server._delegate.enterprise.example CNAME isp.example > > ... may be more useful. > > Dave. From admin@flosoft.biz Tue Feb 8 09:24:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858123A6805 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:24:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.630, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hqYe9PJJxnNi for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core1.flosoft-servers.net (core1.flosoft-servers.net [188.165.198.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778913A6813 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core1.flosoft-servers.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by core1.flosoft-servers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AD9416088; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 18:25:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.219.73.52] (unknown [134.219.73.52]) by core1.flosoft-servers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 18:25:00 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-4-1051086623; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Florian Jensen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:24:26 +0000 Message-Id: References: To: Tory Patnoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: XMPP Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:24:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail-4-1051086623 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmm, I just checked RFC 2782: Under "Overview and rationale", it says: Note that where this document refers to "address records", it means A = RR's, AAAA RR's, or their most modern equivalent. Also see "Target" on Page 3 of the RFC: There MUST be one or more address records for this name, the name MUST = NOT be an alias (in the sense of RFC 1034 or RFC 2181). Implementors = are urged, but not required, to return the address record(s) in the = Additional Data section. So yeah, I'd still say: No CNAME's allowed, or am I missing something = here? On 8 Feb 2011, at 16:32, Tory Patnoe wrote: > In practice SRV records pointing to a CNAME is not rare at all. >=20 > -- Tory >=20 >=20 > On 2011-2-8 8:21 AM, "Dave Cridland" wrote: >=20 >> On Tue Feb 8 15:10:43 2011, Florian Jensen wrote: >>> as we talked about SRV records on monday, I quickly checked what is >>> actually allowed to do with them. >>> I may have said that SRV records are allowed to point to CNAME's >>> which is NOT true. >>>=20 >>> SRV records, just like MX records, have to point to a A or AAAA >>> record. >>=20 >> Right. I was suggesting: >>=20 >> _xmpp-server._tcp.enterprise.example CNAME >> _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example >> ;; Enterprise.example's XMPP S2S service is delegated to ISP.example >>=20 >> _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example SRV ... >>=20 >> I suspect that this is: >>=20 >> a) More useful to the Enterprise.example administrators. >>=20 >> b) More practical for us to handle, as then one RR - the CNAME - acts >> as a single delegation record. >>=20 >> However, Kurt seemed to suggest we should, instead do something more >> explicit - I suggest something like: >>=20 >> _xmpp-server._delegate.enterprise.example CNAME isp.example >>=20 >> ... may be more useful. >>=20 >> Dave. >=20 --Apple-Mail-4-1051086623 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIO6jCCBwAw ggXooAMCAQICAggPMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGMMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEWMBQGA1UEChMNU3Rh 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INbCEk7PX03cR+371iNq/zO1X7p0yP20xUsu2SDcKG/m1FGq/E5x+KlLzMA71FHu8zMKC8QWmxfI SZKd43W5RMTtwVYzQX5s34GsGkfZQOOleM/jwLOWVDGLSw5KPkvWw7bwtPkL93voCpQ+9OxWek7S 0pwgMWW7M1oLNbj2lz3CI5pd8CaFqZLBv1ouqZW8GbksKPRmvaquDxXt5+vZzjdFIgih0lIxHaxm cTxRn5/PRUt9uGd7hZak0AQDRgAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-4-1051086623-- From justin@affinix.com Tue Feb 8 09:37:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F3A3A67F1 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLEgLyVBA3D0 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcahe.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.74]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BF63A67F3 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A09B70406A for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=affinix.com; h=from:to:subject :date:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id; q=dns; s=affinix.com; b=H QLcOeEwe9raPkrNdGWLkqOCS81a0FHBzK5J20dhbvD/O+JpZRwAojHkCJFSfxCLz yEa6lAPFAR0N/ZwRjEjXFcdg0wu8LknZ+R63FV7WYej7QC02GMb5pw7jP/75xlWJ MHlGiEdncoJ5r70wVjGgwiJXSQcx1NMZlqxJdo3cak= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=affinix.com; h=from:to :subject:date:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id; s=affinix.com; bh=49r1tVe kMAWCftTiAheiiLzokFc=; b=mI/kOL6QUb0TaEc3UJefSbE/DqwUzfszVrhTfPB HYQWSVyI6/0CLY4rEHd9DXMpfc2gWlJZ14kYucWNhE6yII0q85WmTtQbOpS77Vdf kI7j/9iFDt/X9v4bbKvm624/zBYmakhIqai1P2a1iVF8vs1c1J/GxZNlMb/WuKPW kWQk= Received: from purelace.localnet (andross.dreamhost.com [75.119.221.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: justin@affinix.com) by homiemail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32EB8704063 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:37 -0800 (PST) From: Justin Karneges To: xmpp@ietf.org Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:37:36 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.35-rc6-vaioz; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201102080937.36740.justin@affinix.com> Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:37:31 -0000 On Tuesday 08 February 2011 09:24:26 Florian Jensen wrote: > Hmm, I just checked RFC 2782: > > Under "Overview and rationale", it says: > > Note that where this document refers to "address records", it means A RR's, > AAAA RR's, or their most modern equivalent. > > Also see "Target" on Page 3 of the RFC: > There MUST be one or more address records for this name, the name MUST NOT > be an alias (in the sense of RFC 1034 or RFC 2181). Implementors are > urged, but not required, to return the address record(s) in the Additional > Data section. > > So yeah, I'd still say: No CNAME's allowed, or am I missing something here? Not that this answers your question, but I don't see how "no CNAMEs" could be enforced practically. I feel that it will always work regardless of what the recommendations are. But, it would be interesting to know if there really is a recommendation to not set up your DNS this way, and why. From dave@cridland.net Tue Feb 8 09:43:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B152C3A6814 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:43:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7uPf8oj5ac8 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848FB3A680B for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A5D11680FB; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:44:02 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OI4uXiUBfiF1; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:44:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from Sputnik (unknown [62.3.217.253]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 633AE11680BA; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:44:01 +0000 (GMT) References: <201102080937.36740.justin@affinix.com> In-Reply-To: <201102080937.36740.justin@affinix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2609.1297187041.296482@Sputnik> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:44:01 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Justin Karneges , XMPP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:43:57 -0000 On Tue Feb 8 17:37:36 2011, Justin Karneges wrote: > But, it would be interesting to know if there really is a > recommendation to > not set up your DNS this way, and why. Most obviously: recursion.example.com CNAME recursion.example.com Less obvious is a loop across multiple CNAMEs. This suggests that CNAME, at least, MUST NOT have an alias on the RHS. Mostly, it's an efficiency thing - when asking for any record, you may get a CNAME or DNAME instead, but things on the RHS are always one query away. Some SMTP servers will choke on a CNAME on the RHS of an MX, though. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From rbarnes@bbn.com Tue Feb 8 12:22:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB733A681D for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 12:22:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XMI91zst9Nef for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 12:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A451E3A672E for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 12:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.89.252.183] (port=63156 helo=[10.242.10.142]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.74 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Pmu4g-000I0G-OL; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:22:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 14:22:07 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <87DDEB81-BC31-4D4C-A185-802BEABD489E@bbn.com> References: To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: xmpp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xmpp] XMPP support for emergency services... X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:22:05 -0000 Hey Bernard, Thanks for raising this issue. One of the great things about the = overall ECRIT system is that it is inherently multi-protocol, in that a = PSAP can advertise whatever contacts it has (including SIP, XMPP, etc.) = in its LoST records, and a caller can use whichever contacts it is = capable of calling. I myself have used Jingle in multiple ECRIT demos. =20= So in the long run, it would probably be good to look at XMPP for = emergency services, first to determine whether any further = standardization is necessary (e.g., a minimum profile of XEPs), and then = to make any necessary changes. Phonebcp is not the document in which to do this work. That document = has been around too long, and there is an urgent need in the community = for *some* sort of RFC. Phonebcp provides a good, SIP-based, baseline = set of functions that can get ECRIT deployment started. Remember that = of the three parts of an emergency call (geolocation, LoST, and = calling), only the last one is specific to SIP in phonebcp, so there is = a lot that will remain useful for XMPP.=20 So let's do look at XMPP for emergency services, possibly as an update = to phonebcp, but go ahead and let phonebcp move to RFC. --Richard =20 On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Recently, the issue of XMPP support for emergency services has come up = in a number of documents. For example, in ECRIT WG, the phonebcp = document (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp ) = only mentions SIMPLE with respect to IM support (see Section 14, ED-75), = and Gunnar has raised the question whether XMPP should also be included = (see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ecrit/current/msg07424.html).=20= >=20 > Similarly, the NENA document "Uses Cases and Suggested Requirements = for Non-Voice-Centric Emergency Services" (see = http://www.nena.org/information/joint/NG_Non-Voice_CentricEmergSvcs ) = states on page 13: "Support of Extensible Messaging and Presence = Protocol (XMPP) [RFC3920, > RFC3921] and SIP SIMPLE (pager mode) [RFC3428] should be considered as = a future study item." >=20 > Now saying nothing is not necessarily a bad state if there is nothing = to say. On the other hand, maintaining silence on the subject makes it = more likely that that questions will persist until we have documentation = either explaining how it is done, or explaining that it is not supported = (and perhaps why). =20 >=20 > I realize that this WG probably has another (tastier) fishes to fry, = but this particular fish is out in the sun, and it seems to me that it = would be best to either refrigerate it, or toss it in the disposal.=20 > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp From rbarnes@bbn.com Tue Feb 8 21:47:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC9B3A6905 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:47:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KqeRuxS49vGn for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623AF3A68F5 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.89.252.189] (port=50599 helo=[10.71.1.98]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.74 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Pn2uD-000MNY-Lm; Wed, 09 Feb 2011 00:47:58 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard L. Barnes In-Reply-To: <2609.1297187041.296482@Sputnik> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:47:49 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3AF1B43C-6775-419E-B218-7CB3A6EBF6BB@bbn.com> References: <201102080937.36740.justin@affinix.com> <2609.1297187041.296482@Sputnik> To: Dave Cridland X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: XMPP Working Group Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 05:47:52 -0000 Fortunately, for the purposes of using DNSSEC to secure delegations, all = of these redirection records look more or less the same. My guess is = that we'll end up saying something like "Any names you encounter in = DNSSEC-protected delegations are OK". Consider, for example, the = following example: _xmpp-server._tcp.example.com --(SRV, DNSSEC)--> xmpp.provider.com --(CNAME, no DNSSEC)----> box1.cluster2.provider.com ... then you could accept example.com or xmpp.provider.com, but not = box1.cluster2.provider.com. As had been mentioned before, this is probably a concept worth writing = up in a form that would work for other applications as well. Say for = ENUM, which might do NAPTR to get to a service like SIP or XMPP, then do = SRV to delegate the service to a provider. =20 4.3.2.1.e164.arpa NAPTR "E2U+sip" "!^.*$!sip:alice@example.com!" _sip._tcp.example.com SRV proxy.provider.com But of course we'll work things out for XMPP first :) --Richard On Feb 8, 2011, at 11:44 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Tue Feb 8 17:37:36 2011, Justin Karneges wrote: >> But, it would be interesting to know if there really is a = recommendation to >> not set up your DNS this way, and why. >=20 > Most obviously: >=20 > recursion.example.com CNAME recursion.example.com >=20 > Less obvious is a loop across multiple CNAMEs. This suggests that = CNAME, at least, MUST NOT have an alias on the RHS. >=20 > Mostly, it's an efficiency thing - when asking for any record, you may = get a CNAME or DNAME instead, but things on the RHS are always one query = away. Some SMTP servers will choke on a CNAME on the RHS of an MX, = though. >=20 > Dave. > --=20 > Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net > - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ > - http://dave.cridland.net/ > Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp From jehan.marmottard@gmail.com Wed Feb 9 06:30:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51F63A69D6 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ImQhj-zj1UyA for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D25A3A69C2 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by wwa36 with SMTP id 36so231287wwa.13 for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2011 06:30:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XrYj8IIxznb69GtW3XGDa1j8vbKaPrxwh7go0oTmPao=; b=SEAkKRZNrmbYJ9Se9X+lPh6VZe6MkUt+HFv1YbDFIVZV7k+e1vapeABHnM9g/Aan0o qpaBVVTiwmAnaHOsR1Pvc/hj3rlv59czU53tIdfZNnNys7iH3/tf6PkJXtnuzgWOLhL+ DK8Aw7DgpM5bgxqMoQwQ7K0YtEl5f5MVb/iPo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eDuZ9JT9jchOknkFi1fBSdLqbjjrdW4LzACJOGrtghqmgfJcpu9f+8V80rj4g7BCSb 137Bj10ydFh3rcwEYa9beirqkNH5NHVu9+jnAGfg1+qUt8sdUh8hAd3z7h5bHIrCeODf d7BN9okVCk/D9TwHVPKLU0mR7LF5MWnGhDBdg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.173.147 with SMTP id v19mr18170173wel.102.1297261841048; Wed, 09 Feb 2011 06:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.177.5 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:30:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2609.1297178504.401961@Sputnik> References: <2609.1297178504.401961@Sputnik> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 23:30:41 +0900 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jehan_Pag=E8s?= To: Dave Cridland Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: XMPP Working Group Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:30:44 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Tue Feb =A08 15:10:43 2011, Florian Jensen wrote: >> >> as we talked about SRV records on monday, I quickly checked what is >> actually allowed to do with them. >> I may have said that SRV records are allowed to point to CNAME's which i= s >> NOT true. >> >> SRV records, just like MX records, have to point to a A or AAAA record. > > Right. I was suggesting: > > _xmpp-server._tcp.enterprise.example CNAME _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example > ;; Enterprise.example's XMPP S2S service is delegated to ISP.example > > _xmpp-server._tcp.isp.example SRV ... > Hi don't get your example. If you do a SRV on the domain enterprise.example, why a CNAME would be made first? No resolver will do that because it does not make much sense. The resolver to which you ask the xmpp-server service of the domain enterprise.example will first make a SRV, and only after (depending on the answer) will do other queries (A or AAAA queries). > I suspect that this is: > > a) More useful to the Enterprise.example administrators. > > b) More practical for us to handle, as then one RR - the CNAME - acts as = a > single delegation record. > > However, Kurt seemed to suggest we should, instead do something more > explicit - I suggest something like: > > _xmpp-server._delegate.enterprise.example CNAME isp.example I don't think that a CNAME accepts a target in the form of a SRV request. Moreover the second part of a SRV must be a valid protocol registered by IANA (it must be listed here: http://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xml which is always the last version of the list). Hence "delegate" is not a valid protocol, and cannot be used like this. Anyway if we want to do something like this, the logical thing would be to set it as a service ( http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers ). So we should rather register a service xmpp-delegate for instance. Regards, Jehan > ... may be more useful. > > Dave. > -- > Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net > =A0- acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ > =A0- http://dave.cridland.net/ > Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade > _______________________________________________ > xmpp mailing list > xmpp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp > From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Feb 11 14:21:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796303A680E for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:21:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d7N+V8z7skxQ for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262093A67D8 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com (dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com [64.101.72.185]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 797E340393; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:39:18 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D55B66F.8090809@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:21:35 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XMPP Extension Discussion List , XMPP X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010401030305070601090300" Subject: [xmpp] Fwd: [jdev] SCRAM implementations X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:21:22 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010401030305070601090300 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040203090909020602060101" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040203090909020602060101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI. Please reply on the jdev list: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev /psa -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [jdev] SCRAM implementations Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:20:18 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre Reply-To: Jabber/XMPP software development list To: Jabber/XMPP software development list To help move SCRAM forward at the IETF, I'd like to make a list of XMPP applications that have support for the SCRAM SASL mechanism (i.e., RFC 5802). So far I think we have the following (not necessarily in released versions yet): CAXL Jabber-Net M-Link Prosody Psi Swift Telepathy / Empathy Is that accurate? Are there any others? 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tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6F6cqSkVtPMX for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B121D3A6D63 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1355B1168067; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:44:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oImPgoFSCKl; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:44:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7D3FE1168066; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:44:04 +0000 (GMT) References: <201102080937.36740.justin@affinix.com> <2609.1297187041.296482@Sputnik> <3AF1B43C-6775-419E-B218-7CB3A6EBF6BB@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: <3AF1B43C-6775-419E-B218-7CB3A6EBF6BB@bbn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <25030.1297802644.513998@puncture> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:44:04 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: "Richard L\. Barnes" , Justin Karneges , XMPP Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [xmpp] Regarding SRV records X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:43:43 -0000 On Wed Feb 9 05:47:49 2011, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > Fortunately, for the purposes of using DNSSEC to secure > delegations, all of these redirection records look more or less the > same. My guess is that we'll end up saying something like "Any > names you encounter in DNSSEC-protected delegations are OK". > Consider, for example, the following example: > > _xmpp-server._tcp.example.com > --(SRV, DNSSEC)--> xmpp.provider.com > --(CNAME, no DNSSEC)----> box1.cluster2.provider.com > > ... then you could accept example.com or xmpp.provider.com, but not > box1.cluster2.provider.com. > > In no small part because the CNAME is illegal (can't have a CNAME if there is any other record) - but I know what you mean. The thing is, I think that: _xmpp-server._tcp.enterprise.example CNAME _xmpp-server._tcp.hosting.example is fundamentally what we want to express; that is, "My XMPP service is hosted by hosting.example". Then we can use existing XMPP (and other) SANs identifying the service we connect to as hosting.example - irrespective of whether hosting.example itself has deployed SRV on the subsequent lookup. In a past life as an ISP sysadmin looking after mail, I recall that changing the hostnames of the mail service was basically a giant no-no, because it was in so many customer DNS zones; it would be much more useful to both hosting providers and enterprises alike if we could couple as loosely as possible. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Feb 17 15:39:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: xmpp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E253A6F63 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZ131hFTQrNL for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07B13A6F60 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com (dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com [64.101.72.185]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DA8340327; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:58:28 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4D5DB1DB.4090403@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:40:11 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XMPP , XMPP Extension Discussion List , Jabber/XMPP software development list X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040501020401020205070103" Subject: [xmpp] Fwd: [apps-discuss] idnkit-2.1 released X-BeenThere: xmpp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: XMPP Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:39:47 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040501020401020205070103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [apps-discuss] idnkit-2.1 released Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:48:11 +0900 From: Yoshiro YONEYA To: apps-discuss@ietf.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no Dear all, I'm very pleased to announce that JPRS has released idnkit-2.1 which is an implementation of IDNA2008, and it provides features IDN encoding conversion tool and APIs for application software. The idnkit-2.1 and its additional packages are available from following U= RL: Major changes since idnkit-2.0 release are: - Bug fix + Quotation marks in configuration file was not processed properly + Logic of ACE prefix check was inappropriate - Correspond to RFC publication + IDNA Table version was updated according to RFC 5892 publication + "map" entry directive name of configuration file was changed accordin= g to RFC 5895 publication (resman-idna2008-mappings-01 -> rfc5895) - Addition of packages + Windows Package, Java API Package, Python API Package and Perl API Package were added I hope that the idnkit-2.1 is useful for IDN zone administrators, IDN sit= e administrators, IDN-aware application developers, and IDNA2008 protocol designers. Please feel free to give your comments about the idnkit-2.1 to following e-mail address: Regards, --=20 Yoshiro YONEYA _______________________________________________ apps-discuss mailing list apps-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --------------ms040501020401020205070103 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIITzjCC BjQwggQcoAMCAQICASMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoT DVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNp Z25pbmcxKTAnBgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3 MTAyNDIxMDMzM1oXDTE3MTAyNDIxMDMzM1owgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1T dGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWdu 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